Posted by Bill Hart on June 12, 1997 at 13:48:42:
In Reply to: knowing posted by Dennis Bratcher on June 11, 1997 at 20:55:17:
It doesn't happen often, Dennis, but I take issue with you on this.
You said, "It is 'determined' in the sense that there is no alternative to that happening. It does not matter what I will or what God wills, the event will unfold precisely as it is known."
To clarify, I think we must separate three issues: the definition of "determine", present choices, and future events.
Part of the confusion involves the definition. "Determine" is a verb that involves an actor establishing, decreeing or directing something. From a Wesleyan perspective, the actor would be an individual, making choices about his/her attitudes and actions. These choices "determine" a given result. I think we are agreed that while God influences our decisions, He does not determine our actions in the sense of a puppeteer pulling our strings. "Predetermine is a verb that involves an actor establishing, decreeing or directing something beforehand. Your statement that "one of us is predetermined to do something wrong that causes the accident…" should actually read, "one of us is postdetermined to do something, etc."
Let's consider the issue of present choices. Forget about future events for the moment. I can't agree with your statement: "I may have the appearance or the illusion of making choices, but I can only choose a course of action that will cause that event to occur. I have no actual freedom, but am only living out what must be."(otherwise known as the 'Que sera, sera' theoryJ) Using your illustration, you had the present ability (when "then" was your "now"-stay with me here) to go the other direction to the WalMart on 23rd, or Walgreens, or wherever. If you had chosen any of those alternatives, you may not have had a wreck. But then again, you may have been mugged. My point is this: your freedom of choice was absolute if, at the moment you made the decision, you could choose any of those alternatives. The fact that any given choice will lead to a given result in no way negates the freedom of the actual choice at the time it is made. In retrospect (from the perspective of the future, looking back) it is clear that a given event resulted from given choices. But those choices were not "givens" until after they had been made and the event was not a "given" until those choices were acted upon. It is faulty reasoning to say that because you ended up doing a certain thing, you could have done nothing else.
And, yes, God can know the exact sequence of events that would unfold because He sees them. It is like 20-20 hindsight. You can look back on decisions you (or others) made and realize that those decisions resulted in a given outcome. You can "know" that with certainty. How is it any different for God? The only difference is that God can see the past, present and future simultaneously and we can only see the past and present.
Maybe I'm dense but I just don't understand your assertion that "if I have real freedom and there are real alternatives, then God did not "know" the exact sequence of events that would unfold." Why wouldn't He know? You could have had real choices in what was then the present moment and, with the benefit of hindsight, God could also know exactly what you would decide.
Returning to the question as you framed it, "what exactly is it that God knows, and how does that knowledge affect human existence?" To answer the first part: God knows everything-past, present and future. The second part is much more complex (after all, isn't the Bible itself the record of God's interaction with humanity) but, as it relates to His knowledge of the future affecting our decisions in the present, I would have to conclude that it does not affect us. I am not saying that God does not affect human existence. I am saying His knowledge of what we will do does not affect our choices (although it might affect His choices). Our knowledge of Him is what really affects our choices.
Bill