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| December 2, 1998 (P.M. Session) | Back to Transcript Index |
1
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, :
:
PLAINTIFF, :
:
V. : C.A. NO. 98-1232
:
MICROSOFT CORPORATION, :
:
DEFENDANT. :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
STATE OF NEW YORK, ET AL., :
:
PLAINTIFFS, :
:
V. : C.A. NO. 98-1223
:
MICROSOFT CORPORATION, :
:
DEFENDANT. :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X
MICROSOFT CORPORATION, :
:
COUNTERCLAIM-PLAINTIFF, :
:
V. :
:
DENNIS C. VACCO, ET AL., :
:
COUNTERCLAIM-DEFENDANTS. :
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -X WASHINGTON, D.C.
DECEMBER 2, 1998
2:02 P.M.
(P.M. SESSION)
VOLUME 23
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL
BEFORE THE HONORABLE THOMAS P. JACKSON
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE
2
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS: DAVID BOIES, ESQ.
PHILLIP R. MALONE, ESQ.
STEPHEN D. HOUCK, ESQ.
RICHARD L. SCHWARTZ, ESQ.
ALAN R. KUSINITZ, ESQ.
KEVIN J. O'CONNOR, ESQ.
A. DOUGLAS MELAMED, ESQ.
MARK S. POPOFSKY, ESQ.
GAIL CLEARY, ESQ.
DENISE DEMORY, ESQ.
MICHAEL WILSON, ESQ.
ANTITRUST DIVISION
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
P.O. BOX 36046
SAN FRANCISCO, CA 94102
FOR THE DEFENDANT: JOHN L. WARDEN, ESQ.
STEVEN L. HOLLEY, ESQ.
RICHARD C. PEPPERMAN, II, ESQ.
THEODORE EDELMAN, ESQ.
RICHARD J. UROWSKY, ESQ.
CHRISTOPHER MYER, ESQ.
STEPHANIE G. WHEELER, ESQ.
MICHAEL LACOVARA, ESQ.
SULLIVAN & CROMWELL
125 BROAD STREET
NEW YORK, NY 10004
WILLIAM H. NEUKOM, ESQ.
DAVID A. HEINER, ESQ.
THOMAS W. BURT, ESQ.
MICROSOFT CORPORATION
ONE MICROSOFT WAY
REDMOND, WA 98052-6399
COURT REPORTER: DAVID A. KASDAN, RPR
MILLER REPORTING CO., INC.
507 C STREET, N.E.
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20003
(202) 546-6666
3
INDEX
PAGE
CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION OF JAMES A. GOSLING 4
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 2045 ADMITTED 5
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1926 ADMITTED 9
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 2025 ADMITTED 10
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1995 ADMITTED 16
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1965 ADMITTED 26
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1916 ADMITTED 38
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1290 ADMITTED 43
TESTIMONY UNDER SEAL 50
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 2041 ADMITTED UNDER SEAL 50
TESTIMONY IN OPEN COURT 56
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1986 ADMITTED 57
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1919 ADMITTED 81
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1997 ADMITTED 87
DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1993 ADMITTED 91
4
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
3 MR. BURT: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
4 CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. BURT:
6 Q. GOOD AFTERNOON, DR. GOSLING.
7 A. GOOD AFTERNOON.
8 Q. NOW, YOU CO-AUTHORED SOME BOOKS ON JAVA THAT HAVE
9 BEEN PUBLISHED BY ADDISON WESLEY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
10 A. I DID.
11 Q. AND THESE BOOKS ARE CONSIDERED BY SUN TO BE
12 DEFINITIVE REFERENCE MATERIALS FOR THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY;
13 CORRECT?
14 A. THEY'RE THE PART OF THE DEFINITION OF THE PLATFORM.
15 Q. AND SUN HAS TAKEN THE POSITION PUBLICLY THAT ANYONE
16 CAN IMPLEMENT THE JAVA PLATFORM CONSISTENT WITH THE
17 SPECIFICATIONS IN THAT SERIES OF BOOKS AND OBTAIN A
18 LICENSE FROM SUN TO THE TECHNOLOGY; CORRECT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. I'M SORRY. WHAT WAS THE ANSWER?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. ONE OF THE BOOKS THAT YOU AUTHORED IS A BOOK ENTITLED
23 THE JAVA PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE; CORRECT?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU SHOW TO THE WITNESS WHAT HAS
5
1 BEEN MARKED AS EXHIBIT 2045, PLEASE.
2 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
3 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 2045 IS THE COVER
4 PAGE AND SOME EXCERPTS FROM THE ENTIRE VOLUME. AND TO
5 SAVE SPACE, I'VE JUST MARKED THE EXCERPTS WHICH I OFFER
6 INTO EVIDENCE.
7 MR. BOIES: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NO OBJECTION IF WE
8 CAN HAVE THE ABILITY TO ADD ADDITIONAL PORTIONS. I
9 HAVEN'T SEEN THIS EXHIBIT BEFORE JUST NOW, AND I HAVEN'T
10 SEEN THE BOOK ITSELF, AND SO IF WE COULD HAVE AN
11 UNDERSTANDING WITH COUNSEL THAT WE COULD ADD WHATEVER
12 ADDITIONAL PAGES FROM THIS BOOK THAT WE THINK ARE
13 APPROPRIATE, I WOULD HAVE NO OBJECTION TO INTRODUCING THIS
14 EXCERPT AT THIS TIME.
15 MR. BURT: CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR.
16 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEFENDANT'S 2045 IS
17 ADMITTED, SUBJECT TO CONDITIONS.
18 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 2045 WAS
19 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
20 BY MR. BURT:
21 Q. NOW, DR. GOSLING, BEFORE THE BREAK WE WERE TALKING
22 ABOUT SOME OF THE REASONS WHY THERE MIGHT BE POTENTIAL
23 PROBLEM WITH DOING CROSS-PLATFORM PROGRAMMING IN JAVA.
24 AND ONE OF THOSE REASONS IS THAT THERE MAY BE SITUATIONS
25 IN WHICH THE PERFORMANCE OF JAVA ISN'T QUICK ENOUGH FOR
6
1 THE PARTICULAR APPLICATION THAT THE PROGRAMMER HAS IN
2 MIND; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
3 A. WELL, IN THE EARLIER VERSIONS OF THE SYSTEM
4 THAT--THERE WERE SOME CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THAT WAS
5 CERTAINLY THE CASE. AS PEOPLE'S IMPLEMENTATIONS OF JAVA
6 RUNTIMES HAVE GOTTEN BETTER AND BETTER, YOU KNOW, WHICH
7 MICROSOFT'S PERFORMANCE AND THEIR RUNTIME IS RATHER GOOD,
8 THE NEED TO DO NATIVE METHODS PURELY FOR PERFORMANCE HAS
9 BECOME MUCH, MUCH LESS FREQUENT THAN IT WAS.
10 Q. BUT IT STILL REMAINS A NEED IN CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES
11 TO USE NATIVE METHODS FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS; ISN'T THAT
12 RIGHT?
13 A. THEIR EXISTS A SMALL NUMBER OF CASES, ALTHOUGH WITH
14 THE LATEST GENERATIONS OF THINGS, ACTUALLY OFTEN GOING TO
15 NATIVE METHODS CAN ACTUALLY SLOW YOU DOWN.
16 Q. BUT YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO HAVE A FASTER IMPLEMENTATION
17 BY WRITING THE ENTIRE PROGRAM IN "C" OR EVEN IN
18 ASSEMBLER--
19 A. THERE ARE MANY OTHER LANGUAGES THAT HAVE THEIR OWN
20 ADVANTAGES, AND DEVELOPERS ARE PERFECTLY FREE TO WRITE
21 PROGRAMS IN "C" OR WHATEVER.
22 Q. RIGHT. AND SO ONE OF THE REASONS A DEVELOPER MIGHT
23 CHOOSE TO WRITE A PROGRAM OTHER THAN A CROSS-PLATFORM JAVA
24 PROGRAM IS TO GET BETTER PERFORMANCE; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
25 A. YES, ALTHOUGH STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, THESE DAYS IT'S
7
1 ACTUALLY A PRETTY RARE THING.
2 Q. AND IF YOU'D LOOK AT PAGE 271 OF EXHIBIT 2045--I'M
3 USING THE PAGE NUMBERS IN THE LOWER CORNER--YOU SEE THAT
4 IN THE BOOK YOU AND YOUR COAUTHOR WROTE, "SITUATIONS ARISE
5 WHERE A GIVEN APPLICATION OR LIBRARY CANNOT BE WRITTEN
6 ENTIRELY IN JAVA, AND IN SUCH CASES, THE CODE MUST BE
7 WRITTEN IN SOME OTHER LANGUAGE MORE SPECIFIC TO THE
8 UNDERLYING PLATFORM. THESE SPECIAL SITUATIONS TEND TO
9 FALL INTO THREE CATEGORIES."
10 AND THE THIRD OF THOSE THREE BULLETS IS, "THE
11 JAVA ENVIRONMENT IS NOT FAST ENOUGH FOR TIME-CRITICAL
12 APPLICATIONS, AND IMPLEMENTATION IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE MAY
13 BE MORE EFFICIENT."
14 AND THAT IS THE PERFORMANCE, THE SPEED
15 PERFORMANCE OF JAVA IS AN ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED
16 IN THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY PRESS AS WELL, ISN'T IT?
17 A. YES, ALTHOUGH WITH THIS PARTICULAR EXAMPLE, I THINK
18 ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THIS
19 IS--I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE WHICH EDITION--THIS LOOKS LIKE
20 THE FIRST EDITION OF THE BOOK. AND I THINK THIS IS--I'M
21 NOT SURE WHAT THE DATE ON THIS ONE IS. BUT IT'S--YOU
22 KNOW, IT REFLECTS THE STATE OF THE UNIVERSE A COUPLE OF
23 YEARS AGO, AND, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, THE
24 PERFORMANCE ISSUE HAS BEEN ONE THAT HAS BEEN A--SORT
25 OF--OF STEADILY DECLINING IMPORTANCE.
8
1 Q. WELL, LET'S EXAMINE--
2 THE COURT: CAN YOU GIVE US THE DATE OF THE BOOK?
3 MR. BURT: YES, YOUR HONOR. IT'S 1996. IT'S A
4 REVISED EDITION THAT INCLUDES JAVA 1.1 TECHNOLOGY, BUT
5 IT'S COPYRIGHTED 1996, I BELIEVE. LET ME CHECK.
6 YES, YOUR HONOR, IT INDICATES A COPYRIGHT OF
7 1996. THIS PARTICULAR EDITION, HOWEVER, HAS BEEN UPDATED
8 WITH AN APPENDIX DEALING WITH THE JAVA 1.1 TECHNOLOGY,
9 WHICH IS APPENDIX D, AND SHOWS THAT IN A LITTLE GREEN BOOK
10 IN THE LOWER CORNER OF THE COVER.
11 BY MR. BURT:
12 Q. WELL, DR. GOSLING, LET'S LOOK AT SOME MORE
13 CONTEMPORARY ARTICLES IN THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY PRESS ON
14 THIS SUBJECT.
15 MR. BURT: AND COULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
16 EXHIBIT 1926, PLEASE.
17 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
18 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1926 IS AN ARTICLE
19 FROM ZDNET AND ITS WEB SITE AUTHORED BY JESSE BERST, AND
20 IT'S DATED JUNE 4TH, 1997. AND I OFFER IT FOR THE PURPOSE
21 OF DEMONSTRATING THE INFORMATION THAT WAS AVAILABLE TO THE
22 DEVELOPER COMMUNITY AT THAT TIME.
23 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. IS THERE A
24 DATE? IT SAYS WEDNESDAY, JUNE 4, 1997. IS THAT DATE THE
25 DATE OF THE ARTICLE?
9
1 MR. BURT: YES, IT IS.
2 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION.
3 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1926 IS ADMITTED.
4 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1926 WAS
5 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
6 BY MR. BURT:
7 Q. AND, DR. GOSLING, DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE FIRST
8 BULLET POINT IN THE LOWER PORTION OF THE DOCUMENT. IT
9 SAYS--JUST ABOVE THAT, ACTUALLY, IT TALKS ABOUT THERE ARE
10 KEY ISSUES RELATED TO JAVA, AND THE FIRST BULLET POINT
11 SAYS, "POOR PERFORMANCE: IT TAKES TOO LONG TO DOWNLOAD
12 JAVA APPLETS. WHEN THEY FINAL ARRIVAL ON YOUR DESKTOP,
13 THEY RUN TOO SLOWLY. JAVA IS PARTICULARLY BAD ON 16-BIT
14 WINDOWS 3.1, STILL THE MOST WIDESPREAD PLATFORM AT MOST
15 CORPORATIONS."
16 LET'S LOOK AT A MORE RECENT REPORT IN THE
17 COMPUTER PRESS, AND IF YOU COULD LOOK AT--
18 THE COURT: I WAS INTERESTED IN THE AD IN THE
19 LEFT MARGIN THERE.
20 MR. BURT: I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT'S AN AD FOR,
21 YOUR HONOR.
22 THE COURT: I DON'T THINK IT'S FOR JAVA.
23 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
24 EXHIBIT 2025, PLEASE.
25 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
10
1 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 2025, DEFENDANT'S
2 EXHIBIT 2025 IS A REPRINT OF AN ARTICLE ENTITLED "JAVA
3 ENVIRONMENTS," FROM PC MAGAZINE, DATED APRIL 7TH, 1998,
4 AND I OFFER IT AT THIS TIME, YOUR HONOR, FOR THE SAME
5 PURPOSE AS THE PRIOR EXHIBIT, ALTHOUGH I WILL BE OFFERING
6 IT FOR OTHER PURPOSES LATER AFTER I LAY ADDITIONAL
7 FOUNDATION.
8 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
9 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION FOR THE PRESENT PURPOSE
10 IT'S BEEN OFFERED FOR, YOUR HONOR.
11 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEFENDANT'S 2025 IS
12 ADMITTED.
13 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 2025 WAS
14 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
15 BY MR. BURT:
16 Q. AND, DR. GOSLING, EXHIBIT 2025, THIS ARTICLE IN PC
17 MAGAZINE, I ASSUME THAT HAVE YOU SEEN THIS ARTICLE BEFORE
18 TODAY; CORRECT?
19 A. YES, ACTUALLY I HAVE.
20 Q. ALL RIGHT.
21 A. I THINK.
22 Q. AND IF WE TURN TO THE FIRST--
23 A. YEAH, I HAVE SEEN IT.
24 Q. ACTUALLY, IF WE TURN TO PAGE 137, AND THERE IS A
25 PARAGRAPH THAT'S HIGHLIGHTED HERE ON THE SCREEN THAT'S
11
1 EASIER TO READ, I THINK, ON THE EXHIBIT, THAT SAYS, "AS
2 WAS THE CASE LAST YEAR, OUR TESTING SHOWED THAT JAVA STILL
3 HAS QUITE A WAY TO GO BEFORE ITS PROMISES ARE FULFILLED.
4 PERFORMANCE CONTINUES TO BE SLOW, AND COMPATIBILITY IS
5 ERRATIC ACROSS PLATFORMS. ALSO, COMPARED WITH THE CONTENT
6 AVAILABLE FOR OTHER PLATFORMS, THERE ARE FEW FUNCTIONAL
7 REAL-WORLD JAVA PROGRAMS TO CHOOSE FROM."
8 SO, AT THAT POINT THERE ARE STILL REPORTS OF
9 PERFORMANCE PROBLEMS IN THE PRESS, AND LET'S LOOK AT ONE
10 MORE.
11 MR. BOIES: YOUR HONOR, I OBJECT TO THE PROCEDURE
12 OF SIMPLY READING DOCUMENTS WITH THE WITNESS ON THE
13 WITNESS STAND, NOT ASKING THE WITNESS ANY QUESTION OR
14 GIVING THE WITNESS AN OPPORTUNITY TO COMMENT.
15 THE COURT: I DO THINK THE WITNESS IS ENTITLED TO
16 COMMENT ON IT.
17 MR. BURT: ALL RIGHT, YOUR HONOR.
18 THE COURT: DOES HE AGREE?
19 BY MR. BURT:
20 Q. LET'S LOOK AT EXHIBIT 2025. AND THAT PARAGRAPH WHERE
21 PC MAGAZINE IS REPORTING THAT THEIR TESTING SHOWED THAT
22 PERFORMANCE CONTINUES TO BE SLOW.
23 DO YOU AGREE THAT THEIR TESTING SHOWED THAT
24 PERFORMANCE CONTINUES TO BE SLOW IN APRIL 1998?
25 THE WITNESS: WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT THEIR CHARTS,
12
1 THAT'S--I MEAN, THEIR CHARTS ARE THEIR CHARTS, RIGHT? I
2 MEAN, IT SHOWS WHAT THEY SAY THEY SHOW.
3 HOWEVER, I'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH CORPORATE
4 CUSTOMERS AROUND THE WORLD. THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF
5 THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DEVELOPING JAVA PROGRAMS, AND DOING SO
6 QUITE HAPPILY AND QUITE SUCCESSFULLY.
7 AND, YOU KNOW, FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE, THE ACTUAL
8 RAW PERFORMANCE OF JAVA IS NOT OFTEN THE NUMBER ONE
9 CONCERN. YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST IS WHEN YOU GO AND BUY A
10 CAR. YOU JUST DON'T GO AND BUY THE FASTEST CAR. YOU MAY
11 BUY THE CAR THAT IS THE MOST RELIABLE, OR YOU MIGHT
12 HAVE--BUY THE CAR THAT'S GOT THE MOST COMFORTABLE SEATS.
13 YES, THERE HAVE BEEN PERFORMANCE ISSUES. THEY'RE
14 GETTING BETTER.
15 Q. ALL RIGHT. DR. GOSLING, AND SO, AGAIN, IT'S A
16 TRADEOFF ISSUE FOR THE DEVELOPER, ISN'T IT, TO DECIDE
17 WHETHER PERFORMANCE--JUST LIKE THE SPORTS CAR BUYER MIGHT
18 WANT THE FASTEST CAR, THERE MIGHT BE A CIRCUMSTANCE IN
19 WHICH THE DEVELOPER WANTS THE FASTEST PERFORMANCE;
20 CORRECT?
21 A. THAT'S CERTAINLY TRUE.
22 Q. LET'S LOOK AT AN ADDITIONAL EXHIBIT THAT'S PREVIOUSLY
23 BEEN ENTERED INTO EVIDENCE. YOU'VE GOT EXHIBIT 1929
24 BEFORE YOU. IT'S THE ZDNET ARTICLE WE INTRODUCED THIS
25 MORNING. DO YOU HAVE THAT, DR. GOSLING?
13
1 A. WHICH ONE IS THIS? THIS IS--1926 DID YOU SAY?
2 Q. 1929.
3 A. 1929.
4 Q. IT'S A PC MAGAZINE ARTICLE FROM ZDNET SITE.
5 A. AND WHICH PAGE WERE YOU REFERRING TO?
6 Q. IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT PAGE FIVE?
7 MR. BURT: AND THIS IS THE ARTICLE, YOUR HONOR,
8 THAT'S DATED NOVEMBER 4TH, 1998, SO NOT QUITE A MONTH AGO.
9 BY MR. BURT:
10 Q. AND IT SAYS IN THE SECOND FULL PARAGRAPH ON PAGE
11 FIVE, "COMPARED WITH NATIVE CODE, JAVA VM'S ARE
12 EXCRUCIATINGLY SLOW. THE ADVENT OF JUST IN TIME (JIT)
13 COMPILERS IN VERSION 3.0 BROWSERS, AT LEAST ON THE PC
14 PLATFORM, HELPED ALLEVIATE THIS SHORTCOMING, BUT FOR MANY
15 APPLICATIONS, JAVA STILL CANNOT COMPETE WITH NATIVELY
16 COMPILED C++ CODE."
17 SO I TAKE IT, DR. GOSLING, AGAIN, THAT THIS IS
18 JUST HIGHLIGHTING THE FACT THAT FOR SOME DEVELOPERS, THERE
19 IS A TRADEOFF BETWEEN USING JAVA AND GETTING MAXIMUM
20 PERFORMANCE; CORRECT?
21 A. YES. BUT I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT THAT DOES
22 SAY IT'S FOR VERSION 3.0 BROWSERS. THE VERSION 3.0
23 BROWSERS, YOU KNOW, ARE ANCIENT. THE LEVEL OF THE
24 PERFORMANCE OF THE TECHNOLOGY THESE DAYS, ESPECIALLY
25 OUTSIDE THE BROWSERS, HAS BEEN QUITE GOOD.
14
1 I WAS, FOR EXAMPLE, AT A MEETING ACTUALLY OUT
2 HERE IN D.C. JUST A FEW MONTHS AGO AT THE NATIONAL
3 INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY WITH A BUNCH OF
4 MATHEMATICIANS WHO WERE WRITING HIGH-LEVEL MATHEMATIC
5 SOFTWARE. AND THEY HAD SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THEIR
6 TESTS, THE NUMBERS THEY WERE GETTING WERE VERY, VERY
7 COMPETITIVE WITH C AND C++, ALTHOUGH THAT WAS OUTSIDE OF A
8 BROWSER, THAT WAS USING THE MOST MODERN OF THE JAVA
9 RELEASES; THEY WEREN'T USING ANTIQUE VERSIONS OF THE
10 SYSTEM, WHICH, YOU KNOW, OUR VERSION 3.0 BROWSER, IT'S
11 CERTAINLY PRETTY ANTIQUE IN THIS WORLD.
12 Q. AND "CERTAINLY PRETTY ANTIQUE" MEANING IT'S MORE THAN
13 A YEAR OLD; RIGHT?
14 A. THAT'S UNFORTUNATELY THE WAY THIS BUSINESS WORKS.
15 Q. IT FAST MOVING AND CHANGES QUICKLY; CORRECT?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. NOW, DR. GOSLING, HOWEVER, DEVELOPERS THINKING ABOUT
18 WRITING A CROSS-PLATFORM APPLICATION FOR JAVA FOR THE REAL
19 WORLD HAS TO BE CONCERNED WITH WHAT THE INSTALLED BASE OF
20 BROWSERS AND OPERATING SYSTEMS IS, DON'T THEY?
21 A. IT'S ALWAYS A CONCERN.
22 Q. AND, AS THE FIRST ARTICLE WE LOOKED AT IN THIS GROUP
23 OF THREE POINTED OUT, WINDOWS 3.1 IS STILL THE MOST
24 WIDESPREAD PLATFORM AT MOST CORPORATIONS.
25 DO YOU RECALL THAT FROM THE FIRST ARTICLE?
15
1 A. YEAH, I RECALL THAT FROM A--I FORGET WHAT THE DATE OF
2 THAT ARTICLE WAS BUT...
3 Q. OKAY. AND IT'S TRUE THAT, EVEN AS OF TODAY, THERE
4 ARE NO FULLY COMPLIANT JAVA VERSION 1.1 VIRTUAL MACHINES
5 FOR WINDOWS 3.1; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
6 A. WINDOWS 3.1 HAS SOME ARCHITECTURAL PROBLEMS THAT MADE
7 IT PARTICULARLY CHALLENGING. I MEAN, EVEN MICROSOFT
8 FAILED TO DO A DECENT IMPLEMENTATION ON WINDOWS 3.1. MANY
9 PEOPLE IMPALED THEMSELVES ON THAT PARTICULAR SWORD.
10 Q. SO THAT'S ANOTHER TRADEOFF THAT A JAVA DEVELOPER HAS
11 TO BE CONCERNED ABOUT IF THE CROSS-PLATFORM PLATFORM THAT
12 THAT DEVELOPER WANTS TO RUN THE PROGRAM ON INCLUDES
13 WINDOWS 3.1; CORRECT?
14 A. ABSOLUTELY.
15 Q. AND IN TERMS OF THE SPEED ISSUE, DR. GOSLING, ISN'T
16 IT TRUE THAT SUN RECENTLY REQUIRED (SIC) A COMPANY CALLED
17 NETDYNAMICS?
18 A. ACQUIRED? YES.
19 Q. YES. AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT NETDYNAMICS IS GOING TO
20 CONTINUE TO USE NATIVE CODE--THAT IS, NON-JAVA CODE--IN
21 SOME OF ITS PROGRAMS FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS?
22 A. I'M NOT SPECIFICALLY FAMILIAR WITH THEIR PLANS. I
23 SUSPECT THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE PORTIONS THAT THEY ARE
24 GOING TO LEAVE NATIVE.
25 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
16
1 WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AS EXHIBIT 1995,
2 PLEASE, DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1995.
3 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
4 MR. BURT: AND, YOUR HONOR, DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1995
5 IS A COPY OF AN ARTICLE FROM INTERNET WORLD'S WEB SITE
6 DATED OCTOBER 26TH, 1998, AND ENTITLED "SUN PROMISES
7 AUTONOMY FOR NETDYNAMICS," AND I OFFER IT AGAIN FOR THE
8 PURPOSE OF SHOWING INFORMATION AVAILABLE TO THE
9 DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY AT THE TIME.
10 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
11 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1995 IS ADMITTED.
12 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1995 WAS
13 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
14 BY MR. BURT:
15 Q. IF YOU WOULD LOOK FIRST AT THE FIRST TWO PARAGRAPHS,
16 DR. GOSLING, THE FIRST PARAGRAPH REFERS TO SUN TAKING SOME
17 HEAT AFTER ACQUIRING NETDYNAMICS, A COMPANY WHOSE PRODUCTS
18 WERE NOT QUITE IN KEEPING WITH SUN'S CAMPAIGN FOR A
19 HUNDRED PERCENT PURE JAVA.
20 DO YOU SEE THAT?
21 A. YEP.
22 Q. OKAY. AND IN THE NEXT PARAGRAPH IT SAYS, "IN
23 ANNOUNCING LAST WEEK THAT THE ACQUISITION WAS COMPLETE,
24 SUN MADE IT CLEAR THAT IT HAS NOT WAVERED IN ITS PLAN TO
25 LET NETDYNAMICS MAKE ITS OWN `PRAGMATIC' TECHNOLOGY
17
1 DECISIONS, EVEN WHILE OTHER GROUPS WITHIN SUN WORK ON
2 ENHANCING THE JAVA STANDARD."
3 DO YOU SEE THAT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. AND THAT AGAIN IS A REFERENCE TO THE NOTION OF THE
6 TRADEOFFS THAT DEVELOPERS FACE, AND IN THIS CASE SUN WAS
7 GOING TO LET NETDYNAMICS MAKE THOSE TRADEOFFS IN FAVOR OF
8 USING NON-JAVA CODE; CORRECT?
9 A. CERTAINLY WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN FORCING ANYBODY TO
10 USE JAVA.
11 Q. AND IF YOU WOULD LOOK NOW AT JUST THE THIRD PARAGRAPH
12 IT SAYS, "NETDYNAMICS CHIEF ZACK RINAT--" I'M NOT SURE HOW
13 TO PRONOUNCE HIS LAST NAME. DO YOU KNOW, DR. GOSLING?
14 A. NO, I DON'T.
15 Q. AND IT SAYS IN THE FIFTH PARAGRAPH, "NETDYNAMICS
16 DEVELOPERS CAN WRITE THEIR APPLICATIONS ENTIRELY IN JAVA,
17 RINAT SAID, BUT WITHIN THE UNDERLYING APPLICATION SERVER
18 CERTAIN COMPONENTS WRITTEN IN C++ `ARE VERY IMPORTANT FOR
19 PERFORMANCE REASONS.'"
20 AND AGAIN, THAT'S AN INDICATION, IS IT NOT, THAT
21 THERE ARE TIME WHEN WRITING IN C++ FOR PERFORMANCE REASONS
22 CAN BE PREFERABLE TO WRITING IN JAVA?
23 A. WELL, CERTAINLY WHEN THEY INITIALLY WROTE THEIR
24 APPLICATIONS. I MEAN, NETDYNAMICS HAS BEEN AROUND FOR
25 SEVERAL YEARS NOW, AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE EARLY DAYS WHEN
18
1 VERSIONS OF THE SYSTEM WERE RELATIVELY SLOW, YOU KNOW,
2 THEY MADE THE CORRECT CHOICE.
3 AND AS TO WHAT IS THE CORRECT CHOICE TODAY, YOU
4 KNOW, IT'S A SHIFTING THING BECAUSE THE COMPILERS GET A
5 LOT BETTER.
6 AND, YOU KNOW, IF THEY WERE STARTING AFRESH
7 TODAY, WOULD THEY MAKE EXACTLY THE SAME DECISIONS? I
8 DOUBT IT. WOULD THEY DO ALL JAVA? IT'S HARD TO TELL. IT
9 WOULD BE UP TO THEM.
10 Q. OKAY. NOW, ANOTHER REASON WHY WRITING IN ALL JAVA
11 CAN BE A DETRIMENT IS THAT--AND I THINK WE TALKED ABOUT
12 THIS EARLIER--IS THAT THERE ARE SOME FEATURES AND
13 FUNCTIONALITIES THAT AREN'T SUPPORTED IN THE JAVA PLATFORM
14 TODAY; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
15 A. YEAH, SURE. IT'S NOT A FINISHED PRODUCT. I MEAN,
16 IT'S, YOU KNOW, THERE'S--YOU KNOW, IT LIKE--HAVE YOU--HAS
17 MICROSOFT STOPPED DEVELOPING WINDOWS? I DON'T THINK SO.
18 Q. MICROSOFT CONTINUES TO ADD FEATURES AND--
19 A. YEAH.
20 Q. --FUNCTIONALITIES TO WINDOWS, DOESN'T IT?
21 A. ABSOLUTELY.
22 AND, YOU KNOW, IN THE SAME VEIN, YOU KNOW, ALL OF
23 THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOT JUST SORT OF STATIC THINGS. THEY
24 LIVE AND GROW, AND THEY DEVELOP.
25 Q. AND PART OF THE REASON THAT, BOTH WITH JAVA AND FOR
19
1 MICROSOFT WINDOWS, THAT THE COMPANIES WHO DEVELOPED THOSE
2 PRODUCTS CONTINUE TO ADD FEATURES IS IN ORDER TO STAY
3 COMPETITIVE; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. NOW, IF WE LOOK AGAIN AT YOUR BOOK, THE EXCERPTS FROM
6 YOUR BOOK, EXHIBIT 2045, AND AGAIN, DR. GOSLING, JUST TO
7 SHOW WHAT WAS THE CASE IN 1996, THAT SAME PARAGRAPH
8 INDICATES THAT--AS THE SECOND BULLET REASON FOR NOT USING
9 JAVA--IS THAT AN APPLICATION MUST USE SYSTEM-SPECIFIC
10 FEATURES NOT PROVIDED BY THE JAVA CLASSES. AND I TAKE IT
11 AGAIN THAT'S THE SAME POINT THAT THERE IS SOME STUFF THAT
12 JAVA DOESN'T DO; CORRECT?
13 A. YES. BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT DOES HAPPEN, YOU
14 KNOW, AS JAVA DEVELOPS IS THAT MORE AND MORE THINGS ARE
15 AVAILABLE AS CROSS-PLATFORM MAY BE--
16 Q. OKAY.
17 A. --YOU KNOW, SO THINGS THAT YOU COULDN'T HAVE DONE A
18 FEW YEARS AGO YOU CERTAINLY CAN DO TODAY.
19 Q. NOW, LET'S CONTINUE WITH THE THEME A LITTLE BIT,
20 DR. GOSLING, OF THE TRADEOFFS THAT THE DEVELOPER FACES,
21 AND I WOULD NOW LIKE TO SHIFT OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE OF
22 THE COIN AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE BENEFITS THAT A
23 DEVELOPER CAN GET FROM WRITING A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC
24 APPLICATION.
25 AND I TAKE IT ONE OF THOSE BENEFITS IS THAT THE
20
1 DEVELOPER MAY BE ABLE TO AVOID SOME OF THE DISADVANTAGES
2 THAT WE JUST TALKED ABOUT WITH REGARD TO JAVA IF THE
3 DEVELOPER THINKS THOSE ARE IMPORTANT; CORRECT?
4 A. YEAH.
5 Q. AND ANOTHER REASON THAT A DEVELOPER MIGHT WANT TO
6 USE--MIGHT WANT TO WRITE A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC
7 APPLICATION--AND I'M NOT CONSTRAINING THIS, DR. GOSLING,
8 TO A JAVA APPLICATION, BUT REASONS WHY A DEVELOPER MIGHT
9 CHOOSE TO PICK A LANGUAGE AND A PLATFORM AND WRITE A
10 SPECIFIC PLATFORM APPLICATION INCLUDE GETTING THE BENEFIT
11 OF THE SPECIFIC FEATURES THAT A PARTICULAR PLATFORM
12 SUPPORTS; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. AND YOU HAVE YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY BEFORE YOU,
15 DR. GOSLING?
16 A. SOMEWHERE IN THIS STACK, YES. ALL RIGHT.
17 Q. COULD YOU LOOK THERE AT PARAGRAPH 14 ON PAGE SEVEN.
18 YOU SEE THERE, DR. GOSLING, IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PARAGRAPH
19 THERE IS A SENTENCE THAT READS, "FOR EXAMPLE, IN A
20 CORPORATION THERE MIGHT BE MACINTOSH COMPUTERS IN THE
21 GRAPHICS DEPARTMENT, WINDOWS PC'S IN ACCOUNTING, HP-UX
22 WORKSTATIONS IN THE ENGINEERING DEPARTMENT, AND IBM MVS
23 MAINFRAMES IN INVENTORY CONTROL."
24 DO YOU SEE THAT?
25 A. I THINK I GOT THE PAGE NUMBER WRONG. WHAT WAS THE
21
1 PAGE NUMBER AGAIN?
2 Q. SHOULD BE PAGE SEVEN, PARAGRAPH 14.
3 A. I HEARD THE 14, WENT TO PAGE 14.
4 YES, I SEE IT.
5 Q. OKAY. NOW, THAT HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION THAT YOU
6 DESCRIBE THERE MIGHT EXIST BECAUSE THE MAC PLATFORM IS
7 KNOWN AMONG THE DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY AS BEING ESPECIALLY
8 WELL ADAPTED TO DOING GRAPHICS AND DESKTOP PUBLISHING;
9 ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
10 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
11 Q. AND, SO, A DEVELOPER WHO WANTED TO WRITE A PROGRAM TO
12 DO GRAPHICS AND DESKTOP PUBLISHING MIGHT CHOOSE TO GAIN
13 THE BENEFITS OF THAT SPECIFIC PLATFORM BY WRITING A
14 PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATION FOR THE MAC; ISN'T THAT
15 RIGHT?
16 A. THEY MIGHT.
17 Q. AND HP-UX, THE NEXT THING YOU MENTION, THOSE ARE
18 HEWLETT-PACKARD UNIX WORK STATIONS; CORRECT?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND THEY ARE WELL KNOWN FOR BEING STRONG AT
21 ENGINEERING FUNCTIONS; CORRECT?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND YOU ALSO REFERRED TO IBM MVS MAINFRAMES AND
24 INVENTORY CONTROL.
25 A. YES.
22
1 Q. AND YOU MENTION THAT IN PART BECAUSE IBM MAINFRAMES
2 ARE WELL KNOWN FOR BEING WELL ADAPTED TO DOING LARGE
3 VOLUME TRANSACTIONAL COMPUTING; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. NOW, ANOTHER REASON A DEVELOPER MIGHT CHOOSE TO WRITE
6 A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATION IS BECAUSE THE DEVELOPER
7 MAY ALREADY HAVE A LARGE LIBRARY OF CODE THAT THE
8 DEVELOPER HAS WRITTEN FOR A SPECIFIC APPLICATION AND WANTS
9 TO RE-USE IN A NEW APPLICATION; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
10 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
11 Q. AND THAT'S CODE THAT THAT DEVELOPER HAS ALREADY
12 WRITTEN, TESTED, KNOWS IT WORKS, AND, AS YOU DESCRIBE IN
13 YOUR TESTIMONY, IT MAY BE MODULAR SO THAT HE CAN TAKE THAT
14 PIECE OF CODE AND PLUG IT INTO A NEW APPLICATION; CORRECT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. AND THAT'S ANOTHER ITEM THAT YOU NOTED IN YOUR BOOK
17 ON EXHIBIT 2045 ON PAGE 271 WHEN YOU SAY ONE OF THE
18 REASONS THAT A DEVELOPER MAY WANT TO USE NATIVE CODE IS
19 THE FIRST BULLET POINT, THAT A LARGE AMOUNT OF EXISTING
20 CODE ALREADY WORKS, AND PROVIDING A JAVA LAYER FOR THAT
21 CODE IS EASIER THAN PORTING IT ALL TO JAVA; CORRECT?
22 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
23 Q. AND ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE THE DEVELOPER MAY CHOOSE TO
24 DO IS NOT WRITE IN JAVA AT ALL BUT JUST CONTINUE TO WRITE
25 PLATFORM SPECIFIC AND USE JUST SOME OTHER LANGUAGE?
23
1 A. SURE.
2 Q. OKAY.
3 A. I MEAN, WE'VE NEVER TRIED TO FORCE PEOPLE TO DO
4 ANYTHING.
5 Q. AND I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT, DR. GOSLING. I'M JUST
6 TRYING TO POINT OUT THE VARIOUS TRADEOFFS THAT DEVELOPERS
7 FACE IN THE REAL WORLD.
8 A. ABSOLUTELY.
9 Q. NOW, IT'S ALSO TRUE, ISN'T IT, DR. GOSLING, THAT, IN
10 ITS SEVERAL YEARS OF EXISTENCE, THAT JAVA HAS BEEN USED BY
11 PROGRAMMERS AS A GENERAL PURPOSE PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE EVEN
12 TO WRITE PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATIONS IN JAVA; CORRECT?
13 A. PEOPLE HAVE WRITTEN JUST AN INCREDIBLE DIVERSITY OF
14 APPLICATIONS IN JAVA.
15 Q. OKAY. AND THERE ARE REASONS WHY A PROGRAMMER WHO IS
16 THINKING ABOUT WRITING A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATION,
17 SAY ONE JUST FOR SUN SOLARIS, MIGHT PICK JAVA TO WRITE
18 THAT APPLICATION IN; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
19 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
20 Q. AND THOSE REASONS INCLUDE THAT IT IS POSSIBLE IN SOME
21 CIRCUMSTANCES TO WRITE COMPUTER CODE FASTER AND WITH FEWER
22 ERRORS IF YOU WRITE IN JAVA THAN IF YOU WRITE IN SOME
23 OTHER LANGUAGE; CORRECT?
24 A. THAT HAS BEEN ONE OF ITS BIG APPEALS.
25 Q. OKAY. AND ANOTHER REASON THAT SOMEONE MIGHT USE JAVA
24
1 TO WRITE A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATION THAT'S TIED TO A
2 PARTICULAR PLATFORM IS THAT JAVA HAS SOME BUILT IN SAFETY
3 FEATURES THAT DON'T EXIST IN OTHER LANGUAGES LIKE C++;
4 CORRECT?
5 A. YES. WE PAID A LOT OF ATTENTION TO SECURITY AND
6 RELIABILITY.
7 Q. AND ANOTHER REASON THAT A DEVELOPER MIGHT WANT TO USE
8 JAVA TO WRITE A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC APPLICATION IS THAT JAVA
9 HAS A FEATURE CALLED GARBAGE COLLECTION THAT'S MORE
10 EFFECTIVELY IMPLEMENTED IN JAVA THAN IS AVAILABLE IN C++;
11 CORRECT?
12 A. YES, AND IT CONTRIBUTES GREATLY TO THE RELIABILITY,
13 SAFETY, THE CORRECTNESS OF PROGRAMS.
14 Q. AND, FOR THE COURT, GARBAGE COLLECTION IN JAVA IS A
15 SYSTEM OF AUTOMATICALLY MANAGING THE CPU MEMORY; CORRECT?
16 A. YEAH, OF DEALING WITH ALL THE STORAGE OF STUFF SO
17 THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO REALLY WORRY ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT
18 PIECES THAT YOU FILED AWAY OR ARE NO LONGER USEFUL.
19 Q. SO, THERE ARE A VARIETY OF REASONS WHY A PROGRAMMER
20 MIGHT CHOOSE TO WRITE CROSS-PLATFORM JAVA, NATIVE CODE
21 ENTIRELY OR EVEN A MIXTURE OF JAVA AND NATIVE CODE
22 CROSS-PLATFORM OR TARGETED TO A SPECIFIC PLATFORM;
23 CORRECT?
24 A. CERTAINLY. I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF THE REASON THAT WE
25 PROVIDED A NATIVE PROGRAM INTERFACE.
25
1 Q. AND DEVELOPERS SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE OF THE BEST
2 POSSIBLE TOOLS TO USE JAVA TO WRITE A PLATFORM-SPECIFIC
3 APPLICATION, SHOULDN'T THEY?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. NOW, SHIFTING TOPICS A BIT, DR. GOSLING, ISN'T IT
6 TRUE THAT SUN'S LONG-TERM JAVA STRATEGY IS TO CAPTURE ALL
7 COMPUTING FOR ONE PLATFORM CONTROLLED BY SUN: THE JAVA
8 PLATFORM?
9 A. I DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU GET THAT FROM. I DON'T
10 BELIEVE THAT WAS EVER OUR STRATEGY.
11 Q. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THAT STRATEGY WAS FIRST
12 ESTABLISHED IN 1995 AND THAT SUN HAS BEEN EXECUTING ON
13 THAT STRATEGY EVER SINCE?
14 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
15 Q. WELL, LET'S EXPLORE THAT A BIT, DR. GOSLING. YOU
16 KNOW ERIC SCHMIDT?
17 A. YES, I DO.
18 Q. AND MR. SCHMIDT IS CURRENTLY THE CEO OF NOVELL, ISN'T
19 HE?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. BUT FROM 19--JANUARY OF 1994 UNTIL HE LEFT SUN IN
22 1997, MR. SCHMIDT WAS THE CHIEF TECHNOLOGY OFFICER OF SUN;
23 CORRECT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND ISN'T IT TRUE THAT IN JUNE 1995, JUST A MONTH
26
1 AFTER SUN'S PUBLIC LAUNCH OF JAVA, MR. SCHMIDT PROPOSED A
2 JAVA STRATEGY THAT INCLUDED ESTABLISHING JAVA AS AN
3 ALL-ENCOMPASSING COMPUTING PLATFORM?
4 A. I DON'T REMEMBER ANY SUCH PROPOSAL, AND I DON'T
5 EVEN--AND I DON'T REMEMBER IF THERE HAD BEEN SUCH A
6 PROPOSAL, WHETHER IT WAS EVER ACTED ON.
7 MR. BURT: CAN YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
8 DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1965.
9 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
10 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1965 IS A SET OF
11 PRESENTATION SLIDES AUTHORED BY ERIC SCHMIDT ENTITLED
12 "SUMMARY OF JAVA ACTIVITIES," AND DATED JUNE 2ND, 1995,
13 AND I OFFER THE EXHIBIT INTO EVIDENCE.
14 THE WITNESS: I SEEM TO HAVE THREE COPIES OF THE
15 SAME THING.
16 MR. BURT: SORRY, DR. GOSLING.
17 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
18 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEFENDANT'S 1965 IS
19 ADMITTED.
20 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1965 WAS
21 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
22 BY MR. BURT:
23 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN THIS SET OF PRESENTATION SLIDES BEFORE,
24 DR. GOSLING?
25 A. YEAH, I DON'T REMEMBER IT.
27
1 Q. WOULD YOU LOOK AT PAGE THREE, PLEASE. AND YOU SEE,
2 DR. GOSLING, ON PAGE THREE AN ILLUSTRATION ENTITLED "JAVA
3 MARKET WEDGE." AT THE BOTTOM IN THE RIGHT ARROW IT SAYS,
4 "ATTACK NOVELL, LOTUS, BORELAND, MICROSOFT FRANCHISES."
5 DO YOU SEE THAT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. WAS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT BEING PART OF THE
8 JAVA STRATEGY IN JUNE 1995?
9 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT BEING A PART OF THE STRATEGY.
10 THE COURT: I'M SORRY?
11 THE WITNESS: I DON'T RECALL IT BEING A PART OF
12 THE STRATEGY.
13 BY MR. BURT:
14 Q. AND BELOW THAT IT SAYS, "JAVA MORPHS INTO A NEW
15 COMPUTING SYSTEM THAT IS PLATFORM INDEPENDENT."
16 DO YOU SEE THAT?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND THAT WAS PART OF THE JAVA STRATEGY IN JUNE 1995,
19 WASN'T IT?
20 A. NOT THAT I KNOW OF.
21 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE FIVE OF THIS EXHIBIT, PLEASE.
22 AND YOU SEE HERE MR. SCHMIDT SETTING FORTH JAVA
23 PRODUCT EVOLUTION?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND STARTING WITH "ESTABLISHED LANGUAGE" IN THE LOWER
28
1 LEFT?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. AND THEN THE SECOND STEP UP FROM THAT SAYS, "LAYERED
4 SOFTWARE ON WINDOWS, MAC, UNIX, INTERNET OS."
5 DO YOU SEE THAT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND WAS THAT PART OF THE JAVA STRATEGY IN JUNE OF
8 1995?
9 A. I CERTAINLY REMEMBER THAT THE GOALS AT THE TIME WERE
10 TO PROVIDE A TECHNOLOGY THAT WOULD ALLOW PEOPLE TO WRITE
11 APPLICATIONS THAT WOULD RUN ON ANY OF A WIDE VARIETY OF
12 OPERATING SYSTEMS, INCLUDING WINDOWS, NEVER TO EXCLUDE
13 WINDOWS, BUT TO GIVE DEVELOPERS THE CHOICE TO RUN THEM
14 WHEREVER THEY CHOSE TO RUN THEIR PROGRAMS.
15 Q. AND THE NEXT STEP IS "JAVA OS ON NATIVE HARDWARE,
16 INTEL, POWERPC AND SPARC."
17 DO YOU SEE THAT?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. AND THAT WAS INTENDED TO REFLECT THE IDEA OF HAVING A
20 JAVA OPERATING SYSTEM DIRECTLY ON THE CHIP SO THAT NO
21 MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEM WOULD BE NEEDED; ISN'T THAT
22 RIGHT?
23 A. I THINK WHAT HE WAS--HE WAS--ONCE YOU HAVE BUILT AN
24 INDEPENDENCE BETWEEN THE OPERATING SYSTEM AND THE
25 APPLICATIONS, IT'S NOW POSSIBLE TO BECOME INNOVATIVE IN
29
1 DESIGNING NEW OPERATING SYSTEMS, AND THERE COULD BE ANY OF
2 A WIDE VARIETY OF OPERATING SYSTEMS THAT COULD BE BUILT
3 THAT COULD BECOME VIABLE ONCE THERE WAS SOFTWARE AVAILABLE
4 FOR THEM.
5 Q. ISN'T IT TRUE THAT IT WAS PART OF THE JAVA STRATEGY
6 AT THE TIME TO REPLACE OTHER COMPUTER OPERATING SYSTEMS
7 WITH A JAVA OPERATING SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE ON THE CHIP, ON
8 THE HARDWARE ITSELF?
9 A. WE WANTED TO BE ABLE TO CREATE NEW OPERATING SYSTEMS,
10 YES.
11 Q. AND YOU WANTED A SUN-CONTROLLED OPERATING SYSTEM THAT
12 WOULD BE ON THE HARDWARE ITSELF; CORRECT?
13 A. WE ALREADY HAD ONE.
14 Q. YOU WANTED A SUN JAVA OPERATING SYSTEM THAT WOULD BE
15 ON THE CHIP ITSELF AS THE FINAL STAGE IN THE PRODUCT
16 EVOLUTION; CORRECT?
17 A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE OFFICIAL CORPORATE STRATEGY
18 WAS.
19 Q. WELL, THIS SEEMS TO BE THE STRATEGY OF THE CHIEF
20 TECHNOLOGY OFFICER AT THE TIME; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
21 A. WELL, AS I READ THE SLIDES, YOU KNOW, THE--YOU KNOW,
22 LIKE THE PREVIOUS ONES WHERE IT'S SAYING, "WHY IS THE TIME
23 RIGHT?" THIS READS TO ME MORE LIKE A PROPOSAL THAN AN
24 ACTUAL STATEMENT OF STRATEGY.
25 Q. WELL, LET'S SEE WHAT MR. SCHMIDT SAID ABOUT THIS
30
1 DOCUMENT IN HIS DEPOSITION.
2 MR. BURT: AND YOUR HONOR, BEFORE WE PLAY THAT
3 EXCERPT, BECAUSE THE EXCERPT IS GOING TO BE JUST THE
4 WITNESS TALKING, I WOULD LIKE TO DISTRIBUTE A COPY OF THE
5 DEPOSITION WITH THE PORTIONS HIGHLIGHTED FOR THE WITNESS
6 AND THE COURT.
7 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
8 MR. BURT: AND, YOUR HONOR, THIS EXCERPT WILL
9 BEGIN AT MR. SCHMIDT'S DEPOSITION STARTING AT PAGE 167,
10 LINE SIX, AND WILL GO THROUGH 171 WITH THE PORTIONS THAT
11 ARE HIGHLIGHTED IN THE TRANSCRIPT.
12 THE COURT: 167 DID YOU SAY?
13 MR. BURT: STARTING ON PAGE 167. THAT'S CORRECT,
14 YOUR HONOR.
15 (VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION EXCERPT:)
16 "QUESTION: IT'S A DOCUMENT ENTITLED
17 `SUMMARY OF JAVA ACTIVITIES,' JUNE 2, 1995, ERIC
18 SCHMIDT. THE FIRST PAGE IS SUN DOCUMENT 8300754.
19 HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO LOOK AT THIS?
20 ANSWER: YES.
21 QUESTION: DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS DOCUMENT?
22 ANSWER: YES, I DO.
23 QUESTION: IS THIS A PRINTOUT OF SOME
24 PRESENTATION SLIDES?
25 ANSWER: YES, IT IS.
31
1 QUESTION: WAS IT A PRESENTATION THAT YOU
2 GAVE?
3 ANSWER: YES, IT IS.
4 QUESTION: IN APPROXIMATELY JUNE OF 1995?
5 ANSWER: THAT'S CORRECT.
6 QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. AND WHO WAS THE
7 PRESENTATION GIVEN TO?
8 ANSWER: AS I RECALL, THIS WAS DONE FOR THE
9 SENIOR EXECUTIVES AT SUN.
10 QUESTION: AND `SENIOR EXECUTIVES' WOULD
11 MEAN WHOM?
12 ANSWER: SCOTT MCNEALY AND HIS DIRECT
13 REPORTS.
14 QUESTION: DO YOU RECALL SPECIFICALLY WHO
15 WAS PRESENT WHEN YOU GAVE THIS PRESENTATION?
16 ANSWER: NO--NO, I DO NOT.
17 QUESTION: DO YOU KNOW IF MR. JOY WAS
18 PRESENT?
19 ANSWER: I DO NOT.
20 QUESTION: DO YOU KNOW IF MR. CLARY WAS
21 PRESENT?
22 ANSWER: I DO NOT.
23 QUESTION: OKAY. LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT PAGE
24 THREE, SLIDE ENTITLED `JAVA MARKET WEDGE.'
25 WHAT'S THE MARKET WEDGE THAT'S BEING
32
1 REFERRED TO?
2 ANSWER: WELL, THE QUESTION HERE THAT I WAS
3 POSING TO THE AUDIENCE WAS, HOW CAN WE GET A NEW
4 PLATFORM ESTABLISHED? AND THE TERM `MARKET
5 WEDGE' REFERS TO A STARTING POINT WHERE YOU
6 INNOVATE, AND THEN YOU GROW YOUR SUCCESS
7 INITIALLY THROUGH THE INTERNET SUCCESS, WHICH WE
8 WERE ENJOYING AT THE TIME, AND THEN POTENTIAL
9 FUTURE SUCCESS.
10 QUESTION: AND THE FUTURE SUCCESS WOULD
11 MEAN?
12 ANSWER: MORE THAN JUST INTERNET WEB
13 ACTIVITY.
14 QUESTION: WOULD MEAN ESTABLISHING JAVA AS A
15 COMPLETE PLATFORM.
16 ANSWER: THAT IS CORRECT.
17 QUESTION: AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU
18 WERE THINKING ABOUT IN JUNE OF 1995?
19 ANSWER: YES.
20 QUESTION: AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE THREE YOU
21 SAY, `JAVA MORPHS, M-O-R-P-H-S, INTO A NEW
22 COMPUTING SYSTEM THAT IS PLATFORM INDEPENDENT.'
23 WHAT DOES `MORPHS' MEAN?
24 ANSWER: THE JAVA INITIATIVE, WHICH AT THE
25 TIME WAS A WEB BROWSER, WOULD, IN THIS STRATEGY
33
1 IDEA, CHANGE INTO THIS BROADER PLATFORM.
2 QUESTION: OKAY. AND IS THIS THE CHANGE
3 THAT YOU REFERRED TO AS THE CHANGE FROM A
4 BROWSER-CENTRIC TO A PLATFORM-CENTRIC VIEW?
5 ANSWER: YES.
6 QUESTION: THERE IS A REFERENCE HERE TO
7 `ATTACK NOVELL, LOTUS, BORELAND, MICROSOFT
8 FRANCHISES.'
9 DO YOU SEE THAT?
10 ANSWER: YES.
11 QUESTION: WHAT'S THE MICROSOFT FRANCHISE
12 THAT'S REFERRED TO?
13 ANSWER: THAT REFERS TO THE WINDOWS
14 INTERFACES AND THE WINDOWS 3.1, WINDOWS 95 CLIENT
15 BASE.
16 QUESTION: DOES IT ALSO REFER TO WINDOWS NT?
17 ANSWER: YES.
18 QUESTION: OKAY. SO IT REFERS GENERALLY TO
19 THE WINDOWS PLATFORM?
20 ANSWER: TECHNICALLY, IT WOULD MEAN THE
21 WIN32 MONOPOLY.
22 QUESTION: WHAT'S THE BORELAND FRANCHISE
23 THAT'S REFERRED TO?
24 ANSWER: BORELAND HAD A LARGE BASE OF
25 APPLICATIONS IN THE ENTERPRISE, IN MY
34
1 UNDERSTANDING AT THE TIME.
2 QUESTION: OKAY. AND WHAT'S THE LOTUS
3 FRANCHISE THAT'S REFERRED TO?
4 ANSWER: SAME ANSWER.
5 QUESTION: AND WHAT'S THE NOVELL FRANCHISE?
6 ANSWER: SAME ANSWER.
7 QUESTION: WHAT'S THE ATTACK THAT'S REFERRED
8 TO HERE?
9 ANSWER: WELL, THOSE BUSINESSES WERE LARGE,
10 ESTABLISHED BUSINESSES, SO THE TERM `ATTACK'
11 MEANS GO AFTER THOSE CUSTOMERS TO GET A NEWER AND
12 BETTER PRODUCT TO THEM.
13 QUESTION: SORT OF A MILITARY ANALOGY?
14 ANSWER: YEAH, IT'S A BUSINESS TERM. AGAIN,
15 THE EXPLANATION IS THAT YOU START WITH A
16 REVOLUTIONARY IDEA AND THEN OFF YOU GO.
17 QUESTION: AND WHAT WAS THE PLAN TO ATTACK
18 THE MICROSOFT FRANCHISE?
19 ANSWER: THERE WAS NOT ONE.
20 QUESTION: WHY DID YOU REFER TO ATTACKING
21 THE MICROSOFT FRANCHISE?
22 ANSWER: WELL, AGAIN, IN THE CONTEXT OF THE
23 TIME, THIS IS--THERE IS A TIME LINE, AND WE ARE
24 IN THIS FIRST LITTLE TRIANGLE, SO THESE ARE
25 POTENTIAL.
35
1 QUESTION: I UNDERSTAND THAT--
2 ANSWER: YEAH.
3 QUESTION: --THAT YOU WERE AT THE BEGINNING
4 OF THE TIME LINE.
5 ANSWER: YES, YES.
6 QUESTION: AND THE END OF THE TIME LINE
7 INCLUDED AN ATTACK ON THE WINDOWS FRANCHISE;
8 CORRECT?
9 ANSWER: YES.
10 QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. WHAT WAS THE ATTACK
11 GOING TO BE?
12 ANSWER: TO ESTABLISH A BROAD SET OF JAVA
13 API'S THAT WOULD BECOME MORE POPULAR THAN THE
14 WIN32 INTERFACES THAT WERE THEN POPULAR.
15 QUESTION: OKAY."
16 BY MR. BURT:
17 Q. NOW, DR. GOSLING, GOING BACK BRIEFLY TO PAGE FIVE OF
18 THE EXHIBIT, AND I MAY HAVE ASKED THIS BEFORE SO I
19 APOLOGIZE, BUT ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE FINAL STAGE OF THIS
20 PART OF THE STRATEGY WAS TO HAVE A JAVA OPERATING SYSTEM
21 ON THE HARDWARE SO THAT THERE WOULD BE NO OTHER OPERATING
22 SYSTEM NEEDED?
23 A. IT IS CERTAINLY THE CASE THAT WE HAD BEEN INTERESTED
24 IN AND ARE INTERESTED IN BEING ABLE TO DESIGN NEW
25 OPERATING SYSTEMS. THIS DOES NOT IMPLY THE EXCLUSION OF
36
1 OTHER OPERATING SYSTEMS, AND, IN FACT, IT'S A KEY PART OF
2 THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY, THAT IT ALLOWS DEVELOPERS TO WRITE
3 APPLICATIONS THAT RUN PERFECTLY WELL ON WINDOWS. THEY RUN
4 PERFECTLY WELL ON THE MAC, BUT THEY ALSO RUN PERFECTLY
5 WITH WELL ON THINGS WHICH OTHER PEOPLE INVENT.
6 AND THIS IS REALLY A STATEMENT, AS I WOULD
7 INTERPRET THAT, AS OUR DESIRE TO BE ABLE TO INVENT ANOTHER
8 OPERATING SYSTEM.
9 Q. NOW, MR. SCHMIDT SAID IN HIS TESTIMONY THAT THAT
10 DOCUMENT WAS A PRESENTATION THAT WAS MADE TO MR. MCNEALY.
11 DID YOU HEAR THAT?
12 A. YEAH, I HEARD THAT.
13 Q. MR. MCNEALY, WHAT'S HIS POSITION AT SUN?
14 A. HE'S THE CEO AND PRESIDENT? IS HE STILL THAT?
15 Q. WHATEVER THE TITLE, HE'S THE MAIN GUY.
16 A. HE'S THE BIG CAHUNA, YES. HIS EXACT TITLE, I'M NOT
17 SURE I COULD ACTUALLY REPRODUCE.
18 Q. OKAY. AND YOU DEMONSTRATED AN EARLY PROTOTYPE OF
19 WHAT BECAME THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY TO MR. MCNEALY; ISN'T THAT
20 RIGHT?
21 A. YEP.
22 Q. AND MR. SCHMIDT'S STRATEGY OF USING THE JAVA
23 TECHNOLOGY TO ATTACK THESE BIG BUSINESSES, AS HE REFERRED
24 TO, THAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH MR. MCNEALY'S REACTION TO
25 YOUR DEMONSTRATION, ISN'T IT?
37
1 A. COULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN?
2 Q. YES.
3 ISN'T IT TRUE THAT THE STRATEGY IN MR. SCHMIDT'S
4 SLIDES THAT WE JUST LOOKED AT OF USING THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY
5 TO ATTACK WINDOWS AND BORELAND AND OTHER LARGE BUSINESSES
6 IS CONSISTENT WITH MR. MCNEALY'S REACTION TO YOUR
7 DEMONSTRATION OF THE JAVA PROTOTYPE?
8 A. MR. MCNEALY'S REACTIONS WERE--YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS
9 THERE AND I SHOWED HIM, YOU KNOW, VARIOUS EARLY
10 PROTOTYPES--HIS REACTION WAS USUALLY, "THAT'S REALLY NEAT.
11 THAT'S VERY INTERESTING. BEAUTIFUL WORK." THAT WAS SORT
12 OF THE EXTENT OF IT.
13 AND I DON'T THINK IT RELATES AT ALL TO THIS
14 DOCUMENT.
15 Q. WELL, DO YOU RECALL MR. MCNEALY, AFTER SEEING YOUR
16 PROTOTYPE, SENDING AN E-MAIL THAT SAID, "CHARGE, KILL HP,
17 IBM, MICROSOFT AND APPLE ALL AT ONCE"?
18 A. I DON'T HAPPEN TO REMEMBER A PIECE OF E-MAIL LIKE
19 THAT, BUT I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED.
20 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU SHOW THE WITNESS EXHIBIT
21 1916, DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1916, PLEASE.
22 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
23 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1916 IS A COPY OF
24 AN ARTICLE PRINTED FROM THE COMPUTER BUSINESS REVIEW DATED
25 THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 1ST, 1996, AND I OFFER IT FOR PURPOSES
38
1 OF ESTABLISHING SIMPLY THAT THIS INFORMATION WAS PRINTED
2 AT THAT TIME.
3 MR. BOIES: FOR THAT LIMITED PURPOSE, I HAVE NO
4 OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
5 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1916 IS ADMITTED.
6 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1916 WAS
7 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
8 BY MR. BURT:
9 Q. YOU SEE, DR. GOSLING, IN THE SECOND PARAGRAPH, THIS
10 ARTICLE REPORTS, "WHEN SCOTT MCNEALY, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF
11 SUN MICROSYSTEMS, FIRST SAW A DEMONSTRATION OF THE
12 PROTOTYPE WHICH LATER EVOLVED INTO THE MUCH TOUTED JAVA
13 PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE, HE WAS SO IMPRESSED THAT HE FIRED
14 OFF AN E-MAIL MESSAGE `CHARGE, KILL HP, IBM, MSFT AND
15 APPLE ALL AT ONCE.' IT WAS, HE SAID, THE BEST THING HE
16 HAD EVER SEEN."
17 DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION OF EVER
18 SEEING AN E-MAIL LIKE THAT?
19 A. WELL, I DON'T RECALL AN E-MAIL LIKE THAT, ALTHOUGH I
20 GET SEVERAL HUNDRED PIECES OF E-MAIL A DAY.
21 AND I WOULD ACTUALLY BE SURPRISED IF HE SAID
22 SOMETHING LIKE THAT WHEN HE FIRST SAW A DEMONSTRATION OF
23 THE PROTOTYPE, SINCE HE FIRST SAW A DEMONSTRATION IN 1991.
24 Q. BUT AT SOME POINT WHEN HE SAW A DEMONSTRATION OF THE
25 PROTOTYPE, MR. MCNEALY WAS QUITE ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT IT,
39
1 WASN'T HE?
2 A. YEAH, HE WAS QUITE ENTHUSIASTIC ALL ALONG.
3 Q. NOW, MR. SCHMIDT'S PRESENTATION OF MR. MCNEALY WAS
4 NOT THE END OF THE STRATEGY AT SUN TO USE JAVA TO
5 ESTABLISH AN ALL-ENCOMPASSING COMPUTING PLATFORM, WAS IT?
6 A. I DON'T THINK THERE WAS--I DON'T KNOW OF THAT
7 STRATEGY BEING THERE.
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW MR. BILL JOY?
9 A. YES, I DO.
10 Q. AND HE WAS ONE OF THE ORIGINAL FOUNDERS OF SUN
11 MICROSYSTEMS; CORRECT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND HIS POSITION AT SUN FOR THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS
14 HAS BEEN THE TITLE VICE PRESIDENT OF RESEARCH?
15 A. THAT SOUNDS--THAT SOUNDS RIGHT.
16 Q. AND MR. JOY, IN 1995 AND 1996, WAS INVOLVED IN
17 FORMULATING JAVA STRATEGY, WASN'T HE?
18 A. YEAH, HE WAS INVOLVED.
19 Q. AND, IN FACT, MR. JOY WAS THE PERSON WHO WAS MOST
20 INVOLVED IN NEGOTIATING THE FIRST JAVA LICENSES TO OTHER
21 COMPANIES IN 1995; CORRECT?
22 A. I DON'T KNOW IF I WOULD CALL IT "MOST INVOLVED." I
23 WASN'T REALLY INVOLVED, SO I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, WHO HAD
24 PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY.
25 Q. WELL, MR. JOY, AMONG OTHER THINGS, NEGOTIATED THE
40
1 FIRST LICENSE OF JAVA TO NETSCAPE IN 1995, DIDN'T HE?
2 A. I DOUBT THAT HE DID IT ALONE.
3 Q. HE WAS THE LEAD NEGOTIATOR FOR SUN?
4 A. I DON'T KNOW THAT.
5 Q. WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED IF MR. JOY TESTIFIED THAT HE
6 WAS THE LEAD NEGOTIATOR FOR SUN?
7 A. HE MIGHT HAVE BEEN. I JUST DON'T KNOW.
8 Q. LET ME READ YOU JUST A SHORT PIECE OF MR. JOY'S
9 DEPOSITION TO SEE IF THIS REFRESHES YOUR RECOLLECTION,
10 DR. GOSLING. AND THIS IS FROM MR. JOY'S DEPOSITION IN
11 SUN VS. MICROSOFT, DATED JUNE 25, 1998, PAGE 77, LINES 16
12 TO 20.
13 IT WOULD HELP IF I HAD THE RIGHT DEPOSITION.
14 HERE WE GO. I'M SORRY. IT'S THE DEPOSITION OF
15 MR. JOY, DATED MAY 12TH, 1998, AND AGAIN PAGE 77, LINES 16
16 TO 20.
17 "QUESTION: --"
18 MR. BOIES: COULD WE PLEASE HAVE A COPY.
19 MR. BURT: I CAN GET THE WITNESS A COPY. I WAS
20 GOING TO READ FOUR LINES TO SEE IF IT REFRESHES THE
21 WITNESS'S RECOLLECTION.
22 THE COURT: WHOSE DEPOSITION IS THIS?
23 MR. BURT: PARDON?
24 THE COURT: WHOSE DEPOSITION IS THIS?
25 MR. BURT: IT'S THE DEPOSITION OF BILL JOY, YOUR
41
1 HONOR, THE VICE PRESIDENT OF RESEARCH AT SUN.
2 THE COURT: IN WHAT CASE?
3 MR. BURT: IN SUN VS. MICROSOFT.
4 I'M JUST READING TO SEE IF THIS REFRESHES THE
5 WITNESS'S RECOLLECTION OF--
6 THE WITNESS: YEAH. WHICH PAGE WAS IT AGAIN?
7 BY MR. BURT:
8 Q. PAGE 77, LINES 16 TO 20. THE QUESTION TO MR. JOY,
9 (READING):
10 "QUESTION: TO WHAT EXTENT WERE YOU INVOLVED
11 IN THE NEGOTIATION OF THE NETSCAPE LICENSE?
12 ANSWER: I DID THE NEGOTIATION.
13 QUESTION: YOU DID IT?
14 ANSWER: YES."
15 DO YOU SEE THAT?
16 A. YES.
17 THE COURT: AND WHAT'S THE QUESTION?
18 BY MR. BURT:
19 Q. THE QUESTION IS: DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION
20 THAT MR. JOY WAS THE PERSON WHO DID THE--NEGOTIATED THE
21 NETSCAPE LICENSE IN 1995?
22 A. NO. I MEAN, I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT OTHER
23 PEOPLE WERE INVOLVED, BUT...
24 Q. DID YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT MR. JOY WAS ONE OF
25 THOSE WHO WERE INVOLVED?
42
1 A. YEAH.
2 Q. NOW, IN SEPTEMBER OF 1995, THERE WAS A GROUP AT SUN
3 THAT WAS REFERRED TO AS THE JAVA PRODUCTS BUSINESS GROUP;
4 CORRECT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND YOU WERE A MEMBER OF THAT GROUP AT THAT TIME?
7 A. YES.
8 ACTUALLY, I THINK IT WAS CALLED THE JAVA PRODUCTS
9 GROUP, NO "B" IN THERE.
10 Q. OKAY. AND PART OF THE ROLE OF THE JAVA PRODUCTS
11 GROUP WAS TO SET AND ACT ON A BUSINESS STRATEGY FOR JAVA;
12 CORRECT?
13 A. WELL, I WOULD SAY OUR GOAL WAS TO ACT ON THE STRATEGY
14 AND TO HELP SETTING IT. IT'S NOT CLEAR THAT WE ACTUALLY
15 HAD PARTICULARLY MUCH CONTROL OVER THE STRATEGY.
16 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL THAT MR. JOY WAS INVOLVED IN
17 HELPING FORMULATE THE STRATEGY AT THAT TIME FOR THE JAVA
18 PRODUCTS GROUP?
19 A. YES.
20 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
21 WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1290.
22 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
23 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1290 IS A DOCUMENT
24 ENTITLED "JAVA PRODUCTS BUSINESS STRATEGY." APPEARS TO BE
25 A SET OF PRESENTATION SLIDES AUTHORED BY BILL JOY AND MIKE
43
1 CLARY, SEPTEMBER 24TH, 1995, AND I OFFER IT INTO EVIDENCE.
2 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
3 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1290 IS ADMITTED.
4 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1290 WAS
5 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
6 BY MR. BURT:
7 Q. DR. GOSLING, DO YOU RECALL SEEING THIS PRESENTATION
8 OR A SET OF THESE SLIDES SOMETIME IN THE FALL OF 1995?
9 A. NO, I DON'T RECALL THEM.
10 Q. WOULD YOU LOOK AT PAGE TWO.
11 AND I TAKE IT THE ACRONYM AT THE TOP, JPB, IS FOR
12 JAVA PRODUCTS BUSINESS.
13 IS THAT HOW YOU WOULD INTERPRET THAT,
14 DR. GOSLING?
15 A. YEAH. IT CORRESPONDS TO THE TITLE OF THE SLIDES.
16 Q. OKAY. AND DID YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IN THE FALL OF
17 1995, THAT ONE OF THE GOALS OF THE JAVA PRODUCTS GROUP WAS
18 TO GET 100 MILLION JAVA-ENABLED SEATS?
19 A. WELL, I THINK IF I HAD KNOWN THAT MY--MY GOAL WAS TO
20 SET THAT LARGE A NUMBER, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN A
21 LITTLE UPSET. I DON'T RECALL THAT BEING A GOAL.
22 THE COURT: IS THIS A PRESENTATION HE WAS
23 SUPPOSED TO HAVE ATTENDED? HE SAYS HE DOESN'T RECALL
24 THIS.
25 MR. BURT: THAT'S CORRECT, YOUR HONOR. I DON'T
44
1 KNOW WHETHER DR. GOSLING ATTENDED THE PRESENTATION OR NOT,
2 SINCE HE DOESN'T RECALL IT, BUT SINCE DR. GOSLING HAD THE
3 SENIOR POSITION HE HAD, I'M HOPING HE CAN HELP EXPLAIN
4 WHAT SOME OF THESE THINGS MEAN IN THIS SUN BUSINESS
5 DOCUMENT, AND I'VE GOT OTHER QUESTIONS FOR HIM ABOUT THIS
6 AS WELL.
7 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD.
8 BY MR. BURT:
9 Q. DR. GOSLING, IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT SUN HAS
10 PURSUED GETTING AS MANY AS POSSIBLE JAVA-ENABLED SEATS?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. OKAY. THEN, IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT SUN HAS
13 PURSUED A BUSINESS OF DEVELOPING SOLELY AND SUPPORTING
14 JAVA APPLICATIONS AND SYSTEMS?
15 A. YEAH, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT.
16 Q. AND THE THIRD ITEM IS IT'S TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT SUN
17 HAS PROMOTED ITS IMAGE AS A LEADING INNOVATOR IN INTERNET
18 AND NETWORKING?
19 A. CERTAINLY.
20 Q. AND IT'S ALSO TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT SUN HAS PURSUED
21 THE OBJECTIVE OF TURNING JAVA INTO A COMPLETE ARCHITECTURE
22 AND PRODUCT FRANCHISE FOR COMPUTING?
23 A. WELL, WE ARE CERTAINLY ON THE ROAD TO TRYING TO TURN
24 IT INTO AS COMPLETE AN ARCHITECTURE AS WE CAN. I'M NOT AT
25 ALL SURE WHAT HE MEANT BY "A PRODUCT FRANCHISE FOR
45
1 COMPUTING." I THINK THERE IS A BROAD SPECTRUM OF POSSIBLE
2 INTERPRETATIONS THERE.
3 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE FOUR, PLEASE. PAGE FOUR REFERS
4 TO, AS PART OF ONE OF THE STEPS PROPOSED IN THIS DOCUMENT,
5 RELEASING HOTJAVA. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT SUN HAS DONE;
6 CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WOULD YOU LOOK AT PAGE FIVE, PLEASE. PAGE FIVE, ITEM
9 NUMBER TWO SAYS, "JAVA UBIQUITY."
10 AND THAT HAS BEEN SOMETHING THAT SUN HAS BEEN
11 PURSUING AS A STRATEGIC OBJECTIVE; CORRECT?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. AND ABOUT TWO-THIRDS OF THE WAY DOWN THE PAGE, THERE
14 IS A LINE THAT STATES, "SUN RETAINS IP AND CONTROL OF THE
15 LANGUAGE AND RUNTIME."
16 AND THAT'S ALSO AN OBJECTIVE THAT SUN HAS BEEN
17 PURSUING; ISN'T IT TRUE--HASN'T IT?
18 A. OF THE TECHNOLOGY, YES.
19 Q. WOULD YOU LOOK AT PAGE SEVEN, PLEASE. THE HEADING
20 "PLATFORM INVERSION," THE THIRD ITEM DOWN SAYS, "ESTABLISH
21 A NEW PLATFORM."
22 DO YOU SEE THAT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND THAT'S ONE OF SUN'S OBJECTIVES IS TO ESTABLISH A
25 NEW PLATFORM FOR DEVELOPERS TO WRITE APPLICATIONS TO;
46
1 CORRECT?
2 A. IT'S CERTAINLY AN AREA THAT WE ARE INTERESTED IN, AND
3 THE PLATFORM THAT THIS SPEAKS OF, THIS JAVA PLATFORM, IS
4 ONE THAT SPANS MANY OTHER PLATFORMS. IT'S THIS THING THAT
5 SORT OF SITS ON TOP OF WINDOWS MAC OS OR WHATEVER AND
6 ALLOWS DEVELOPERS, YOU KNOW, TO USE--TO USE OTHER
7 PLATFORMS. IT'S THIS SORT OF VIRTUAL SECOND-LEVEL
8 PLATFORM.
9 Q. AND THAT'S WHAT IS REFERRED TO IN THE FIFTH ITEM DOWN
10 WHERE IT SAYS, "SHIFT ISV'S--"
11 THAT'S INDEPENDENT SOFTWARE VENDORS?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. "--FROM DEVELOPING APPLETS FOR NETSCAPE-TYPE BROWSERS
14 TO DEVELOPING FOR THE JAVA PLATFORM."
15 THAT WAS A GOAL THAT YOU HAD AND ARE PURSUING;
16 CORRECT?
17 A. WELL, THAT WAS--WHEN WE INITIALLY RELEASED THE
18 TECHNOLOGY, THE KINDS OF PROGRAMS THAT WE SHOWED PEOPLE
19 THEY COULD WRITE WERE ONES THAT HAD TO DO WITH THINGS
20 EMBEDDED INSIDE WEB BROWSERS, THESE THINGS CALLED APPLETS.
21 BUT, IN FACT, THE TECHNOLOGY WAS NEVER BUILT TO BE LIMITED
22 TO JUST THESE LITTLE THINGS EMBEDDED IN WEB BROWSERS, BUT
23 IT WAS BUILT TO BE SOMETHING THAT PEOPLE COULD BUILD
24 ARBITRARY APPLICATIONS IN. PEOPLE COULD BUILD WORD
25 PROCESSORS AND SPREAD SHEETS AND WEATHER-MODELING SYSTEMS.
47
1 AND THAT HAS, IN FACT, BEEN WHAT A LOT OF PEOPLE
2 HAVE BEEN DOING.
3 Q. AND THE GOAL THAT YOU HAD THEN AND ARE PURSUING NOW
4 IS TO GET PEOPLE TO DEVELOP THOSE FOR THE JAVA PLATFORM;
5 CORRECT?
6 A. RIGHT, AND TO GET THEM TO DEVELOP THEM ON THE JAVA
7 PLATFORM SO THAT THEY COULD RUN ON TOP OF MANY OTHER
8 PLATFORMS: ON TOP OF THE WINDOWS PLATFORM, ON TOP OF THE
9 MAC PLATFORM, AND SO FORTH.
10 Q. OKAY. NOW, IN JANUARY 1996, I THINK SEVERAL MONTHS
11 AFTER EXHIBIT 1290 WAS WRITTEN, THE JAVA PRODUCT GROUP
12 BECAME A DIVISION OF SUN CALLED JAVASOFT; CORRECT?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. AND YOU BECAME A MEMBER OF JAVASOFT AT THAT TIME IN
15 JANUARY OF 1996; CORRECT?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR TITLE AT THE TIME, DR. GOSLING?
18 A. I GUESS THE HONEST ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW. I
19 TYPICALLY HAD TO LOOK AT MY BUSINESS CARDS. I THINK I WAS
20 CHIEF SCIENTIST.
21 Q. AND DID THERE COME A POINT IN TIME AROUND THAT TIME
22 THAT YOU WERE PROMOTED TO A VICE--OR ELECTED TO A VICE
23 PRESIDENT OF SUN CORPORATION?
24 A. YEAH, I WAS THE VICE PRESIDENT AND A FELLOW.
25 Q. AND "FELLOW" MEANS YOU ARE ONE OF THE SIX MOST SENIOR
48
1 ENGINEERS AT THE COMPANY?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. AND WHEN JAVASOFT WAS FORMED, SUN HIRED A GENTLEMAN
4 NAMED ALLEN BARATZ TO HEAD THE JAVASOFT ORGANIZATION; IS
5 THAT RIGHT?
6 A. CORRECT.
7 Q. AND, IN ADDITION TO MR. BARATZ, THERE WAS AN
8 INDIVIDUAL NAMED JOHN KANNEGAARD, WHO WAS THE VICE
9 PRESIDENT OF SOFTWARE PRODUCTS FOR JAVASOFT; CORRECT?
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. AND HE HAD BEEN PART OF THE JAVA PRODUCTS GROUP AND
12 THEN MOVED OVER TO THIS VICE PRESIDENT OF SOFTWARE
13 PRODUCTS POSITION WHEN JAVASOFT WAS FORMED; CORRECT?
14 A. I THINK HIS RELATIONSHIP TO THE JAVA PRODUCTS GROUP
15 WAS A LITTLE ODD. HE WASN'T--I DON'T THINK HE WAS
16 ACTUALLY FORMALLY A MEMBER OF THE GROUP. EXACTLY HOW THAT
17 HAPPENED, I'M NOT SURE BECAUSE HE HAD BEEN THE PRESIDENT
18 OF SUNSOFT AND THEN SORT OF WENT ON SABBATICAL A LITTLE
19 BIT AND THEN WAS KIND OF HELPING US IN KIND OF A
20 CONSULTING ROLE. AND AT WHAT POINT HE ACTUALLY BECAME,
21 YOU KNOW, OFFICIALLY PART OF THAT ORGANIZATION CHART, I'M
22 NOT ENTIRELY SURE.
23 Q. SOMETIME IN EARLY 1996?
24 A. SOUNDS RIGHT.
25 Q. AND MR. KANNEGAARD RETAINED THAT POSITION THROUGH AT
49
1 LEAST ALL OF 1996, VICE PRESIDENT OF SOFTWARE PRODUCTS FOR
2 JAVASOFT; CORRECT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND HIS INITIALS ARE JEK?
5 A. YES.
6 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, THE NEXT DOCUMENT THAT I
7 WOULD LIKE TO INTRODUCE INTO EVIDENCE, AND IT WOULD BE
8 DIFFICULT TO CHANGE IT FROM THE FLOW OF THE EXAMINATION,
9 IS ONE IN WHICH SUN MICROSYSTEMS BELIEVES THEY HAVE
10 CONFIDENTIALITY INTEREST AND WANT TO PROTECT THE
11 CONFIDENTIALITY OF THAT DOCUMENT.
12 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MAY I SEE IT.
13 ALL RIGHT. I THINK THAT THE REQUEST THAT THIS BE
14 EXAMINED IN CAMERA IS APPROPRIATE, AND THE MATERIAL IS
15 DESERVING OF BEING TREATED IN THAT FASHION. THEREFORE, WE
16 WILL TAKE A 10-MINUTE RECESS, CLOSE THE COURT, AND ANY
17 TESTIMONY YOU WANT TO TAKE ABOUT THIS WILL BE TAKEN IN
18 CAMERA.
19 MR. BURT: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
20 (BRIEF RECESS.)
21 (COURT CONTINUES IN CLOSED SESSION.)
22
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1 (TESTIMONY IN OPEN COURT.)
2 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, SIR.
3 BY MR. BURT:
4 Q. NOW, DR. GOSLING, ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY FORMAL WRITTEN
5 BUSINESS PLAN FOR JAVASOFT THAT HAS BEEN ADOPTED SINCE
6 NOVEMBER OF 1996?
7 A. NO.
8 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHEN ANYONE AT SUN FIRST BEGAN TO DISCUSS
9 USING JAVA TO ATTACK WINDOWS AND A JAVA-ENABLED CHIP TO
10 ATTACK INTEL?
11 THE COURT: SAY THAT AGAIN.
12 BY MR. BURT:
13 Q. DO YOU KNOW, DR. GOSLING, WHEN ANYONE AT SUN BEGAN TO
14 DISCUSS USING JAVA TO ATTACK MICROSOFT WINDOWS AND A
15 JAVA-ENABLED CHIP TO ATTACK INTEL?
16 A. I DON'T HAVE ANY RECOLLECTIONS.
17 Q. WERE YOU AWARE OF ANY SUCH DISCUSSIONS IN SEPTEMBER
18 OF 1995?
19 A. NO.
20 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
21 WHAT'S BEEN MARKED AS DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT 1986, PLEASE.
22 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
23 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1986 IS A COPY OF
24 AN E-MAIL MESSAGE FROM, I BELIEVE, BILL JOY OF SUN TO
25 OTHERS AT SUN, AND DATED SEPTEMBER 28TH, 1995. AND I
57
1 OFFER IT INTO EVIDENCE.
2 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
3 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1986 IS ADMITTED.
4 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1986 WAS
5 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
6 BY MR. BURT:
7 Q. AND DR. GOSLING, JUST FOR CLARITY, FIRST FOCUSING ON
8 THE LITTLE BLOCK OF INFORMATION AT THE TOP, DOES THIS
9 APPEAR TO BE AN E-MAIL MESSAGE FROM BILL JOY OF SUN ON
10 THAT DATE OF SEPTEMBER 28TH, 1995, AND ADDRESSED TO ERIC
11 SCHMIDT, KEN ALVARES, AND SCOTT MCNEALY?
12 A. WELL, THERE IS A LITTLE DISAGREEMENT, I GUESS IT
13 IS--YEAH, IT WAS HAPPENING AROUND MIDNIGHT BECAUSE I
14 NOTICE THIS ONE PART SAYS SEPTEMBER 27, AND THE OTHER SAYS
15 SEPTEMBER 28TH. ONE IS PACIFIC DAYLIGHT TIME, AND THE
16 OTHER ONE IS MOUNTAIN DAYLIGHT TIME. SO HE WORKS LATE.
17 Q. I SEE. AND MR. JOY, VICE PRESIDENT OF RESEARCH FOR
18 SUN, HAS A LABORATORY IN COLORADO, AND THAT'S WHERE HE
19 GENERALLY WORKS, AND THAT'S WHY THE MOUNTAIN TIME;
20 CORRECT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN THIS E-MAIL MESSAGE? WAS IT EVER
23 FORWARDED TO YOU?
24 A. I DON'T REMEMBER IT.
25 Q. LET ME ASK YOU IF YOU ARE AWARE OF SOME OF THE ITEMS
58
1 LISTED HERE.
2 FIRST, REMEMBER I ASKED YOU EARLIER WHETHER
3 MR. JOY IN '95 WAS INVOLVED IN NEGOTIATING JAVA DEALS OR
4 JAVA LICENSES WITH VARIOUS COMPANIES. YOU SEE IN THE
5 FIRST PORTION OF THIS DOCUMENT HE SAYS, "I WILL BE
6 SPENDING MY TIME IN THE COMING MONTHS AS FOLLOWS, NUMBER
7 ONE, CLOSING JAVA DEALS," AND HE LISTS A NUMBER OF
8 COMPANIES AND SAYS "LONG LIST."
9 DO YOU SEE THAT?
10 A. YEAH, HE WAS CERTAINLY INVOLVED WITH MANY OF OUR
11 CUSTOMERS.
12 Q. OKAY. AND NOW, IF YOU LOOK DOWN TO THE MIDDLE
13 PARAGRAPH OF THE DOCUMENT THAT STARTS "JAVA GIVES SUN," DO
14 YOU SEE THAT?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. IT SAYS, "JAVA GIVES SUN A CHANCE TO BREAK AWAY FROM
17 THE MICROSOFT MONOPOLY. I WILL CONTINUE TO BE INVOLVED IN
18 HIGH-LEVEL TECHNICAL DISCUSSIONS AND PLANNING OF THE
19 OS/DEVICES/APPLICATIONS STRATEGY FOR JAVA."
20 WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING THAT THAT CONTINUED TO BE
21 MR. JOY'S ROLE AFTER THIS?
22 A. I DON'T THINK BILL EVER LIMITED HIS ROLE AT ANY POINT
23 IN TIME.
24 Q. OKAY. AND THEN THE SECOND TO THE LAST PARAGRAPH THAT
25 STARTS, "THE CENTER OF MY ACTIVITIES"--DO YOU SEE THAT
59
1 PARAGRAPH, IT STATES, "THE CENTER OF MY ACTIVITIES"--
2 A. YEP.
3 Q. IT SAYS, "THE CENTER OF MY ACTIVITIES WILL BE CAFE
4 DONE WITH STB. I WILL BE WORKING A MAJOR IDEA OUT TO SEE
5 IF IT IS THE MAJOR BREAKTHROUGH I THINK IT IS OVER THE
6 COMING MONTHS. IF IT WORKS OUT, IT WILL BE A MAJOR
7 STRATEGIC THING FOR SUN, A, QUOTE, GET OUT FROM UNDER
8 INTEL, CLOSED-QUOTE, STRATEGY, AND ALLOW US TO BUILD
9 HARDWARE WITH SIGNIFICANT VALUE ADDED AGAINST X86 WHICH
10 SPARC DOESN'T REALLY PROVIDE TODAY."
11 DO YOU SEE THAT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. NOW, SPARC, REFERRED TO IN THE LAST CLAUSE THERE,
14 THAT WAS THE EXISTING SUN MICROPROCESSOR ARCHITECTURE;
15 CORRECT?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. AND THE REFERENCE TO X86, THAT'S TO THE INTEL--AN
18 INTEL MICROPROCESSOR ARCHITECTURE; CORRECT?
19 A. CORRECT.
20 Q. AND HIS REFERENCE TO CAFE IS A REFERENCE TO A PROJECT
21 TO DEVELOP A PARTICULAR NEW KIND OF CHIP; CORRECT?
22 A. CORRECT.
23 Q. AND THAT'S A PROJECT THAT CONTINUES TO THIS DAY;
24 CORRECT?
25 A. I DON'T KNOW IF--I MEAN, THE ACTUAL GENEALOGICAL
60
1 CONNECTIONS OF THESE PROJECTS IS OFTEN SOMEWHAT TENUOUS.
2 WE CERTAINLY HAVE, YOU KNOW, CHIP DESIGN PROJECTS THAT GO
3 ON. EXACTLY WHETHER THEY ARE EXACTLY THAT PROJECT
4 CONTINUED ON OR WHETHER THEY ARE SORT OF DESCENDANTS OF
5 IT, I CAN'T REALLY TELL YOU.
6 Q. OKAY. THE FINAL PARAGRAPH STATES, "JAVA ONLY
7 ADDRESSES, IN QUOTES, WIN; CAFE ADDRESSES, IN QUOTES,
8 TEL."
9 IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THAT SENTENCE THAT
10 WIN IS REFERRING TO MICROSOFT WINDOWS, AND TEL IS
11 REFERRING TO INTEL?
12 A. CORRECT.
13 Q. HE SAYS, "PERHAPS WE SHOULD CALL THE ARCHITECTURE
14 TEL"--AND YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE THE REFERENCE TO
15 THE ARCHITECTURE OF THIS CAFE CHIP?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. AND THEN UP ABOVE AT THE TOP OF THE DOCUMENT WHERE
18 MR. JOY IS REFERRING TO HIS FUTURE ACTIVITIES, THE FOURTH
19 THING IS, "CAFE ARCHITECTURE, MY VIEW OF THE MOST
20 IMPORTANT THING."
21 DO YOU SEE THAT?
22 A. YES, I DO.
23 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL ANY DISCUSSIONS WITH MR. JOY IN OR
24 AROUND THE FALL OF 1995 IN WHICH HE WAS EXPLAINING WHY THE
25 CAFE ARCHITECTURE WAS HIS VIEW OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THING
61
1 FOR HIS ACTIVITIES?
2 A. YES. ACTUALLY, I WAS OFTEN INVOLVED WITH HIM IN
3 DISCUSSIONS AROUND HARDWARE ARCHITECTURES AT THE TIME.
4 Q. AND IT WAS YOUR UNDERSTANDING BASED ON THOSE
5 DISCUSSIONS THAT MR. JOY ENVISIONED THE CAFE CHIP AS BEING
6 A WAY TO COMPETE AGAINST INTEL?
7 A. CERTAINLY, THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS, BUT IT WAS
8 CERTAINLY NOT THE FOCUS.
9 I MEAN, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND
10 ABOUT THE JAVA ARCHITECTURE IS THAT IT MAKES APPLICATIONS
11 THAT ARE DISTRIBUTED BY DEVELOPERS INDEPENDENT OF THE
12 UNDERLYING PLATFORM. INDEPENDENT OF NOT ONLY OF THE
13 OPERATING SYSTEM, BUT OF THE SPECIFIC CHIP THAT'S THERE.
14 AND SO, ONE OF THE EFFECTS OF THIS THAT THIS HAS
15 HAD IN THE COMPUTER INDUSTRY OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS
16 IS THAT BECAUSE THESE APPLICATIONS COME INTO EXISTENCE
17 THAT ARE LOCKED TO A PARTICULAR CHIP ARCHITECTURE, WHAT
18 THAT MEANS IS THAT THE CHIPS--THE CHIP DESIGNS CANNOT
19 EVOLVE. NOBODY CAN INVENT A NEW CPU CHIP BECAUSE A CPU
20 CHIP IS SOMETHING THAT'S ONLY VALUABLE IF THERE ARE
21 APPLICATIONS THAT RUN ON IT. NOBODY BUYS A COMPUTER JUST
22 BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BUY A COMPUTER. THEY ALWAYS BUY A
23 COMPUTER BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET A JOB DONE. AND THE JOB
24 THAT GETS DONE IS DONE BY A PIECE OF SOFTWARE THAT RUNS ON
25 TOP OF THAT CHIP, AND THE TWO OF THEM HAVE TO FIT
62
1 TOGETHER.
2 BUT THE PROBLEM IS THE WAY THEY FIT TOGETHER IS
3 ONE WHERE THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE CHIP IS TIGHTLY BOUND
4 INTO THE ACTUAL DESIGN OF THE SOFTWARE, SO THAT THE PEOPLE
5 RELEASED PIECES OF SOFTWARE, THEY TIE INTO A PARTICULAR
6 CHIP ARCHITECTURE, AND NOW NOBODY CAN INNOVATE IN THE
7 ARCHITECTURE OF THEIR CHIPS.
8 SO, IF YOU LOOK AT, LIKE, THE SUN SPARC DESIGN,
9 WHICH IS ABOUT TEN YEARS OLD, TEN YEARS AGO IT WAS A
10 BRILLIANT DESIGN. TODAY, IT'S--YOU KNOW, THERE HAS BEEN
11 TEN YEARS OF INVENTION AND THINGS THAT WOULD BE WONDERFUL
12 TO BE ABLE TO DO TO EVOLVE THE SPARC ARCHITECTURE. BUT
13 BECAUSE OF THIS LEGACY OF EXISTING PROGRAMS, THEY'RE STILL
14 LOCKED IN.
15 SIMILARLY, THE X86 ARCHITECTURE IS ONE THAT'S
16 NEARLY 20 YEARS OLD, AND THERE ARE MANY THINGS ABOUT THE
17 X86 ARCHITECTURE THAT HAVE BEEN LOCKED IN FOR THE LAST 20
18 YEARS BECAUSE OF THIS TIGHT INTERLOCK.
19 AND WHAT JAVA DOES HERE IS NOT THAT IT MAKES
20 EITHER SIDE OBSOLETE, BUT IT SORT OF GIVES THE TWO SIDES A
21 LITTLE BIT OF DISTANCE, SO THAT PEOPLE CAN BE INNOVATIVE
22 IN THIS SPACE OF DESIGNING COMPUTERS AND DESIGNING THE
23 ACTUAL HARDWARE. AND YOU KNOW, WE, AS A MANUFACTURER, HAD
24 BEEN FRUSTRATED, INDEPENDENT OF ANY COMPETITIVE ISSUES,
25 WITH THE ISSUES OF HOW DO WE--HOW DO YOU INVENT A NEW
63
1 COMPUTER AND HAVE IT BE A VIABLE BUSINESS PROPOSITION,
2 WHEN, IF YOU INVENT IT, IT WON'T HAVE ANY APPLICATIONS
3 RUNNING ON IT. A VERY GOOD CASE STUDY OF THIS IS WHAT
4 HAPPENED WITH DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AND THEIR
5 ALPHA CHIP. THEY INVENTED THIS WONDERFUL CHIP. IT WAS
6 ACTUALLY A VERY NICE DESIGN, VERY FAST, BEAUTIFUL MACHINE.
7 HAD NO APPLICATIONS RUNNING ON IT. IT WAS--IT WAS REALLY
8 A LOSS.
9 AND SO, THE WAY IN WHICH JAVA CAN BE APPLIED IN
10 THIS AREA IS BECAUSE OF THIS SEPARATION. IT ALLOWS YOU,
11 ALL OF A SUDDEN, TO BE VERY INNOVATIVE IN DESIGNING CHIPS
12 SO YOU CAN THEN GO ON AND USE THOSE TO BUILD BETTER
13 SYSTEMS AND, YES, COMPETE WITH PEOPLE WHO BUILD OTHER
14 CHIPS.
15 THE COURT: IS THIS JAVA IN GENERAL OR JUST CAFE
16 OR WHAT?
17 THE WITNESS: THIS IS JAVA IN GENERAL. THIS IS
18 PART OF THE--YOU CAN THINK OF IT AS JAVA AS SORT OF AN
19 ADAPTATION LAYER THAT GOES IN BETWEEN THE ACTUAL
20 APPLICATION THAT RUNS AND WHATEVER THE PLATFORM IS THAT'S
21 UNDERNEATH.
22 AND THE PLATFORM, REALLY, HAS TWO PARTS IN A
23 NORMAL COMPUTER SYSTEM. THERE IS THE ACTUAL CPU CHIP
24 ITSELF, AND THIS THING CALLED AN OPERATING SYSTEM. AND AN
25 OPERATING SYSTEM IS, REALLY, SORT OF THE BOSS THAT KIND OF
64
1 KEEPS THE CPU IN LINE AND THEN SORT OF OPERATES IT AND
2 CONTROLS THE DEVICES.
3 AND ALL OF THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, VERY SPECIALIZED.
4 THE COURT: HOW DOES THIS CONFER INDEPENDENCE
5 FROM THE CPU?
6 THE WITNESS: IN ONE OF THE EARLIER SLIDES,
7 ACTUALLY--IF WE COULD GO BACK TO 1977, THIS SLIDE--COULD
8 WE SEE THAT?
9 SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S NOT MADE CLEAR HERE
10 IS THE POINT AT WHICH A PRODUCT FROM A DEVELOPER IS
11 RELEASED WHERE IT'S--WHEN YOU GO TO THE STORE AND YOU BUY
12 A PIECE OF SOFTWARE THAT'S IN A BOX, YOU KNOW,
13 SHRINK-WRAPPED, WHERE IN THIS STEP IS THAT BOX PRODUCED?
14 AND IT'S ACTUALLY--YOU SEE THERE IS THAT HORIZONTAL LINE
15 THAT'S BELOW--THERE IS A BOX LABELED JAVA LANGUAGE CODE,
16 AND THEN THERE IS THE HORIZONTAL LINE THAT SORT OF FORKS
17 OUT, THIS JAVA LANGUAGE CODE, WHICH IS ACTUALLY THIS--IT'S
18 USUALLY REFERRED TO BY "BYTECODES." THIS IS A VERY
19 MACHINE-ORIENTED LANGUAGE, BUT IT'S NOT SPECIFIC TO ANY
20 PARTICULAR MACHINE. IT'S A FUNNY KIND OF VIRTUAL MACHINE
21 LANGUAGE THAT WAS DESIGNED TO BE EASILY TRANSLATED INTO
22 THE LANGUAGE OF ANY SPECIFIC MACHINE.
23 SO THEN, WHAT HAPPENS IS THAT THE SOFTWARE THAT
24 IS DISTRIBUTED IN A SHRINK WRAP OR ACROSS THE NETWORK GOES
25 OUT IN THIS MACHINE INDEPENDENT FORM, AND THIS ADAPTATION
65
1 LAYER, THIS THING CALLED THE JAVA VIRTUAL MACHINE, ADAPTS
2 THE SOFTWARE TO THAT UNDERLYING PLATFORM. AND AS YOU SEE
3 IN THE DIAGRAM, THE PLATFORM HAS THESE TWO COMPONENTS.
4 ONE IS THE OPERATING SYSTEM, WHETHER IT'S WINDOWS OR
5 SOLARIS, AND THE OTHER IS THE CPU CHIP.
6 SO, IT'S BOTH ADAPTING TO DIFFERENCES IN THE
7 OPERATING SYSTEM AS YOU GO FROM ONE SYSTEM TO THE NEXT.
8 BUT ALSO FROM THE DIFFERENCES IN THE ACTUAL CPU CHIPS.
9 THERE IS ANOTHER DIAGRAM, AND IT'S PROBABLY NOT
10 WORTH SPENDING THE TIME TO FIND IT, BUT IN THE
11 CONVENTIONAL SYSTEM, THE FORM OF THE PROGRAM THAT IS
12 DISTRIBUTED IS LOWER LEVEL BECAUSE THE FORM THAT'S IN THIS
13 DIAGRAM WHERE THAT HORIZONTAL LINE IS DOESN'T EXIST IN
14 CONVENTIONAL TECHNOLOGY. THE THING WHICH COMES OUT OF THE
15 COMPILER IS SOMETHING WHICH IS DIRECTLY--DIRECTLY REFLECTS
16 THE CPU ARCHITECTURE OF THE MACHINE IT'S ACTUALLY RUNNING
17 ON.
18 THE COURT: AND THEN INTERACTS WITH THE OPERATING
19 SYSTEM EXCLUSIVELY?
20 THE WITNESS: YEAH, USUALLY.
21 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
22 THE WITNESS: AND SO IN THE TYPICAL FORM IN WHICH
23 A BINARY PROGRAM IS RELEASED IS ONE WHERE THAT PROGRAM IS
24 VERY TIGHTLY INTERLOCKED WITH THE EXACT PLATFORM. SO,
25 IT'S NOT JUST A MATTER OF LOCKING INTO A PARTICULAR
66
1 OPERATING SYSTEM, BUT ALSO A PARTICULAR CHIP.
2 AND THAT ACTUALLY SORT OF BITES BOTH WAYS,
3 BECAUSE NOT ONLY CAN THE PURCHASER OF THE SOFTWARE NOT
4 MAKE AN INDEPENDENT CHOICE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHICH MACHINE
5 THEY RUN IT ON, BUT THE DESIGNERS OF THE MACHINES ARE
6 STUCK BECAUSE THEY'RE SORT OF STUCK BASED ON THE SOFTWARE
7 THAT THEIR CUSTOMERS ALREADY HAVE. SO THEY CAN'T--IT
8 BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO DESIGN NEW OPERATING SYSTEMS TO
9 DESIGN NEW CHIPS BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO, YOU KNOW, EITHER
10 DECIDE TO DO SOMETHING THAT IS JUST RADICALLY DIFFERENT
11 AND INTERESTING LIKE THE DEC ALPHA CHIP, OR TRY TO DO
12 SOMETHING WHICH MAINTAINS COMPATIBILITY WITH THE OLD
13 SYSTEMS.
14 SO, IF YOU LOOK AT THE EVOLUTION OF, SAY, THE
15 INTEL CHIP LINE, THEY DO A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF INNOVATING
16 WITHIN THAT CHIP DESIGN, BUT THERE IS STILL A LOT OF
17 CONSTRAINTS THAT THEY BRING ALONG WITH THEM FROM DESIGN
18 DECISIONS THAT THEY MADE 20 YEARS AGO--
19 THE COURT: OKAY.
20 THE WITNESS: --WHICH BECOME A REAL BURDEN.
21 SO, JAVA LET'S PEOPLE SORT OF BREAK BOTH TIES AND
22 INNOVATION HAPPEN IN SORT OF ALL OF THESE THREE AREAS,
23 REALLY, INDEPENDENTLY.
24 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT, THANK YOU. SORRY TO
25 INTERRUPT.
67
1 BY MR. BURT:
2 Q. LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE.
3 ISN'T IT TRUE, DR. GOSLING, THAT PART OF SUN'S
4 STRATEGY WITH REGARD TO CAFE WAS TO DESIGN A CHIP TO BE A
5 SUN CHIP, THE CAFE CHIP, THAT WOULD BE OPTIMIZED FOR JAVA
6 SO THAT IF YOU WERE SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING PROGRAMMERS TO
7 WRITE JAVA PROGRAMS, YOU WOULD SELL A LOT OF SOLARIS--NOT
8 SOLARIS, BUT WHATEVER THEY WOULD BE CALLED, A LOT OF NEW
9 SUN MACHINES WITH THE JAVA-OPTIMIZED CHIP WHICH IS WHAT
10 THE PART OF THE CAFE DESIGN WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS; ISN'T
11 THAT RIGHT?
12 A. RIGHT. WE WERE INTERESTED IN BEING ABLE TO INVENT
13 NEW COMPUTERS AND BEING ABLE TO SELL THEM.
14 Q. RIGHT. AND YOU WERE INTERESTED IN ULTIMATELY HAVING
15 THE WORLD BE A WORLD OF JAVA PROGRAMS RUNNING ON SUN
16 COMPUTERS WITH THE CAFE CHIP; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
17 A. WELL, I THINK WE WERE INTERESTED IN BEING AS
18 SUCCESSFUL AS WE COULD BE WITH ANY MACHINES WE COULD
19 DESIGN. OUR FIRST-LEVEL GOAL, REALLY, WAS THE ABILITY TO
20 BE ABLE TO DESIGN ANYTHING AND HAVE ANY KIND OF MARKET
21 FEASIBILITY, WHETHER IT WOULD--I MEAN, THE WAY THAT YOU
22 PHRASE THAT QUESTION WAS AS THOUGH OUR GOAL WAS TO TAKE
23 OVER A HUNDRED PERCENT OF THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. AND
24 ACTUALLY, I THINK WE WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPY WITH TWO ORDERS
25 OF MAGNITUDE LESS THAN THAT.
68
1 Q. AND ISN'T IT ALSO TRUE WHAT WE TALKED EARLIER ABOUT
2 THE FACT THAT SUN DOES $8 BILLION A YEAR IN REVENUE;
3 CORRECT?
4 A. YEAH.
5 Q. OKAY. AND ISN'T IT ALSO TRUE THAT IN ANOTHER PART OF
6 YOUR DESIGN, DR. GOSLING, OR YOUR PLAN IN 1995 WAS NOT
7 ONLY TO DO A CAFE CHIP THAT WOULD BE OPTIMIZED FOR JAVA,
8 BUT TO ACTUALLY TAKE THE VIRTUAL MACHINE AND EMBED IT ON A
9 CHIP SO THAT THE OPERATING SYSTEM WOULD BE ENTIRELY WIPED
10 OUT AND YOU WOULDN'T NEED IT BECAUSE THESE PROGRAMS WOULD
11 RUN DIRECTLY ON THE VIRTUAL MACHINE ON THE CHIP, AND
12 BECAUSE IT WOULD BE ON THE CHIP, IT WOULD BE FASTER THAN
13 WOULD TIE JAVA APPLICATIONS TO SUN'S PROPRIETARY CHIP;
14 ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
15 A. WELL, I MEAN, ONE WOULD NEVER ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING
16 LIKE THAT. I MEAN, THE JAVA VIRTUAL MACHINE WAS DESIGNED
17 AS SOMETHING THAT, AS A VIRTUAL MACHINE, THAT'S EASY TO
18 ADAPT TO MANY KINDS OF HARDWARE. IT'S ACTUALLY A RATHER
19 POOR DESIGN FOR ANY SPECIFIC PIECE OF HARDWARE, SO ONE
20 WOULD NEVER ACTUALLY GET RID OF THE VIRTUAL MACHINE
21 COMPLETELY.
22 Q. YOU MIGHT GET RID OF IT, MIGHTN'T YOU, DR. GOSLING,
23 IF YOU HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE WRITING HUNDRED PERCENT PURE
24 JAVA APPLICATIONS, AND YOU, SUN, OWNED THE PROPRIETARY
25 INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY FOR THE VIRTUAL MACHINE AND YOU
69
1 COULD PUT IT ON A CHIP AND, THEREBY, SELL A LOT OF CHIPS.
2 THAT WOULD BE A REASON TO DO IT, ISN'T IT?
3 A. NO, WE WOULD NEVER--IT'S HARD TO IMAGINE GETTING RID
4 OF THE VM IMPLEMENTATION. I MEAN, THAT WOULD BE A CRAZY
5 THING FOR US TO DO.
6 AND EVEN THE OPERATING SYSTEM, ABOUT THE MOST
7 THAT WOULD HAPPEN, AND WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN JAVA OS, IS
8 TO SORT OF INVERT. YOU GOT IN THIS DIAGRAM, THE JAVA
9 VIRTUAL MACHINE IS ON TOP OF THE OPERATING SYSTEM. AND IN
10 JAVA OS, THOSE PIECES ARE STILL THERE. THEY'RE JUST IN A
11 DIFFERENT ORDER; NAMELY, THAT THE OPERATING SYSTEM IS ON
12 TOP OF THE VIRTUAL MACHINE.
13 Q. WELL, LET'S EXPLORE THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE IN A
14 MOMENT, DR. GOSLING.
15 MR. BURT: COULD WE PUT 1986 BACK UP ON THE
16 SCREEN, PLEASE.
17 BY MR. BURT:
18 Q. AND LAST QUESTION ABOUT THIS DOCUMENT, DR. GOSLING.
19 YOU WILL SEE THAT THE NUMBERED PARAGRAPHS AT THE TOP, ONE
20 OF THE TASKS THAT MR. JOY WAS ASSIGNING HIMSELF WAS NUMBER
21 TWO, "THE JAVA OFFSITE TO FIRM UP TECHNICAL STRATEGY."
22 DO YOU SEE THAT?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. DID YOU ATTEND THAT OFFSITE?
25 A. I ATTENDED LOTS OF OFFSITES WITH BILL AND MIKE AND
70
1 WHETHER--I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE HE WAS SPECIFICALLY
2 REFERRING TO IN THIS ONE. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN ONE OF THE
3 ONES THAT THE CHIP GROUPS WHICH I GENERALLY DIDN'T GO TO.
4 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PUT IN FRONT OF THE WITNESS,
5 PLEASE, EXHIBIT 1289. IT'S PREVIOUSLY BEEN ADMITTED IN
6 EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR.
7 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
8 BY MR. BURT:
9 Q. DR. GOSLING, THIS IS A DOCUMENT "JAVA STRATEGY NOTES"
10 AUTHORED BY BILL JOY, THE AUTHOR OF THE E-MAIL WE WERE
11 JUST LOOKING AT AND DATED SEVERAL WEEKS LATER, DECEMBER
12 11TH, 1995.
13 DO YOU SEE THAT?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. AND ARE THESE NOTES THAT MR. JOY PREPARED FOR THE
16 STRATEGY OFFSITE HE WAS REFERRING TO IN THE LAST EXHIBIT?
17 A. I HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING THAT.
18 Q. CAN YOU LOOK AT THIS EXHIBIT AND TELL ME WHETHER YOU
19 RECALL SEEING THESE DOCUMENTS BEFORE.
20 A. NO, I DON'T THINK I HAVE SEEN THIS ONE.
21 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE TWO OF THE DOCUMENT, PLEASE,
22 MR. JOY WRITES, "OVERARCHING THREE-STAGE GOALS," AND THE
23 FIRST ONE IS "UBIQUITOUS USE OF JAVA AS INTERNET
24 LANGUAGE."
25 AND AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, DR. GOSLING, THAT
71
1 IS A GOAL THAT SUN HAD IN '95 AND CONTINUES TO HAVE TODAY;
2 CORRECT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. AND NUMBER THREE SAYS, "BROAD JAVA PRODUCT LINE
5 INCLUDING SYSTEMS," THAT'S SHORT FOR OPERATING SYSTEMS;
6 CORRECT?
7 A. I WOULDN'T BET ON THAT.
8 Q. I'M SORRY?
9 A. I WOULD NOT NECESSARILY LIMIT THAT.
10 Q. WELL, EACH OF THE ITEMS BELOW KONA SAYS QUIET OS
11 EMBEDDED TO DESKTOP AND NETWORK OS. ALL THOSE OS'S ARE
12 OPERATING SYSTEMS; CORRECT?
13 A. DECAF IS NOT OS, CAFE IS NOT AN OS.
14 Q. JIVE IS AN OS; CORRECT?
15 A. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT JIVE IS OR WAS.
16 Q. THE DOCUMENT SAYS "JIVE TRANSACTIONAL OS." IT MEANS
17 OPERATING SYSTEM; CORRECT?
18 A. YEAH.
19 Q. OKAY. AND SO, THERE ARE TWO OPERATING SYSTEMS LISTED
20 HERE, WHATEVER THEY ARE, KONA AND JIVE, AND THEN THE
21 HEADING ABOVE SAYS "SYSTEMS, SILICON," AND SILICON MEANS
22 CHIPS; RIGHT?
23 A. YEAH.
24 Q. AND THERE ARE TWO CHIPS LISTED, DECAF AND CAFE;
25 CORRECT?
72
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT PAGE, PLEASE, PAGE THREE, AND
3 UNDER CORE COMPETENCIES THE FIRST THING LISTED IS
4 "ATTACKING MICROSOFT FRANCHISE."
5 DO YOU SEE THAT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND THERE ARE SEVERAL THINGS LISTED. THE LAST TWO I
8 WOULD LIKE TO ASK YOU ABOUT. THE FIRST IS, "EMBEDDED OS,
9 KONA BECOMING DESKTOP WINDOWS COMPETITOR."
10 DO YOU SEE THAT?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. IS THAT A REFERENCE TO WHAT BECAME THE JAVA OS?
13 A. BILL WASN'T REALLY INVOLVED IN THE JAVA OS WORK.
14 BILL INVENTS TEN PROJECTS A DAY WITH NAMES THAT HE
15 ATTACHES TO THEM.
16 AND I HAVE TO ADMIT, I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE MEANT
17 BY THAT DOCUMENT, BY KONA, WHAT HE HAD--WHAT HE MEANT TO
18 ATTACH THAT TO. HE MAY HAVE MEANT JAVA OS. HE MAY HAVE
19 MEANT SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.
20 Q. THE NEXT ITEM IS "ENTERPRISE OS/JIVE BECOMING NT
21 COMPETITOR."
22 DO YOU SEE THAT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. AND NT IN THAT LINE WOULD BE A REFERENCE TO
25 WINDOWS NT?
73
1 A. YES.
2 Q. IF YOU WOULD LOOK AT PAGE SIX OF THE DOCUMENT,
3 PLEASE, AND HERE THERE IS FURTHER DESCRIPTIONS OF THEM
4 BEDDED OS KONA AND OS JIVE IDEA; CORRECT?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND FOCUSING PARTICULARLY ON THE ENTERPRISE OS/JIVE,
7 THE ENTERPRISE OS THAT'S REFERRED TO HERE, THAT'S THE
8 BUSINESS OR ENTERPRISE JAVA OS THAT SUN HAS BEEN
9 DEVELOPING JOINTLY WITH IBM; CORRECT?
10 A. NO. ACTUALLY, I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT HE IS
11 REFERRING TO HERE. I MEAN, IF YOU LOOK AT THAT PARAGRAPH
12 WHERE IT'S TALKING ABOUT TWO POLES DISTRIBUTED OBJECT
13 DATABASE, THAT LOOKS MORE LIKE SOME OF THE IDEAS IN JINI,
14 ALTHOUGH JINI HAS NOT BEEN SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN TARGETED
15 AT ENTERPRISES.
16 Q. WELL, ISN'T IT TRUE THAT JIVE, WHAT MR. JOY REFERS TO
17 IN THIS DOCUMENT AS JIVE, IS WHAT EVOLVED INTO JINI, WHICH
18 IS J-I-N-I; CORRECT?
19 LET ME BREAK THAT DOWN THERE. THERE ARE TWO
20 QUESTIONS IN THERE.
21 WHEN YOU REFER TO JINI, THAT'S A PRODUCT THAT WAS
22 RECENTLY RELEASED BY SUN THAT IS SPELLED J-I-N-I; CORRECT?
23 A. RIGHT.
24 Q. AND ISN'T JINI WHAT JIVE BECAME?
25 A. WELL, THERE ARE CERTAINLY SOME TECHNOLOGICAL--WELL,
74
1 JIVE WAS NEVER A PROJECT, AS NEAR AS I CAN TELL. JIVE WAS
2 A SET OF IDEAS THAT BILL HAD. JINI BECAME A PROJECT THAT
3 INCORPORATED SOME OF THOSE IDEAS. THE "TUPLE" SPACE ONE
4 IS REALLY THE CENTRAL THING IN JINI, BUT THE WAY THAT JINI
5 WAS BUILT, IT WAS NOT REALLY FOCUSED. IT'S NOT REALLY THE
6 FOCUS OF DOING ENTERPRISE THINGS. IT'S NOT EVEN REMOTELY
7 AN ENTERPRISE OPERATING SYSTEM, SO I DON'T THINK THERE IS
8 ANY CONNECTION THERE.
9 Q. WELL, LET'S SEE WHAT MR. JOY SAID ABOUT THIS IN HIS
10 DEPOSITION IN THE SUN MICROSOFT CASE.
11 DO YOU HAVE JOY 420, LINE SEVEN, TO 421, LINE 21?
12 MR. BOIES: MAY I INQUIRE WHAT PURPOSE THIS
13 DEPOSITION IS BEING USED?
14 MR. BURT: THE PURPOSE THAT IT'S BEING USED IS
15 FOR THE PURPOSE OF IMPEACHING THAT TESTIMONY REGARDING THE
16 SUCCESSION OF JIVE INTO JINI.
17 THE WITNESS: I DIDN'T SAY THAT JIVE AND JINI
18 WERE UNRELATED.
19 THE COURT: WAIT A MINUTE.
20 MR. BOIES: YOUR HONOR, I READ THIS TESTIMONY,
21 AND I ASK THE COURT BE GIVEN A COPY OF IT. I DO NOT
22 BELIEVE THIS TESTIMONY IMPEACHES ANYTHING THE WITNESS HAS
23 SAID. THIS IS A DEPOSITION TAKEN IN A DIFFERENT CASE.
24 IT'S A KIND OF DEPOSITION MR. WARDEN SUCCESSFULLY OBJECTED
25 TO EARLIER TODAY.
75
1 THE COURT: DID, INDEED.
2 MR. BOIES: AND I DON'T BELIEVE THAT UNDER THEIR
3 RULES THIS WOULD BE ADMISSIBLE.
4 MR. WARDEN: EXCUSE ME, BUT AS MR. BOIES POINTED
5 OUT THIS MORNING, THE TREATMENT OF ADMISSIONS ON WHICH
6 HE'S RELYING IN PRETRIAL ORDER NUMBER 2, PARAGRAPH FOUR,
7 AND THE TREATMENT OF IMPEACHMENT MATERIALS IS PARALLEL,
8 AND I DON'T THINK THAT THAT ORDER ADDRESSES THE USE OF
9 IMPEACHMENT OR REFRESHMENT MATERIALS AT ALL, FRANKLY.
10 THE COURT: WELL, POINT ONE IS THAT SUN IS NOT A
11 PARTY OPPONENT HERE.
12 SECOND POINT IS, ARE YOU REFERRING TO IMPEACHMENT
13 WITH A PRIOR INCONSISTENT STATEMENT OR CONTRADICTION WITH
14 PRIOR INCONSISTENT TESTIMONY OF ANOTHER WITNESS?
15 MR. WARDEN: I WILL LEAVE THAT TO MR. BURT TO
16 DEAL WITH. I WAS ONLY RESPONDING TO THE ARGUMENT THAT I
17 MADE THIS MORNING.
18 MR. BURT: AND YOUR HONOR, TO SIMPLIFY THIS
19 MATTER, I WILL WITHDRAW THE REQUEST THAT WE PLAY THAT
20 PORTION OF THIS TESTIMONY AT THIS TIME, IN ANY EVENT. I
21 MAY COME BACK TO IT AT A LATER TIME IF IT'S APPROPRIATE TO
22 DO SO.
23 THE COURT: NOW, WHAT YOU CAN DO IF YOU WANT TO
24 DO IT IS SHOW HIM, WITHOUT READING INTO THE RECORD, THE
25 TESTIMONY OF MR. JOY AND ASK WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S
76
1 CONSISTENT WITH HIS UNDERSTANDING OR MATTERS THAT HE
2 AGREES WITH OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. YES, NO, OR MAYBE.
3 BY MR. BURT:
4 Q. YOU WOULD AGREE, WOULD YOU NOT, DR. GOSLING, THAT THE
5 JIVE PROJECT OR THE JIVE IDEA DEVELOPED INTO WHAT BECAME,
6 ULTIMATELY, THE JINI PROJECT?
7 A. YEAH, PARTS OF THE STUFF THAT BILL WAS LABELING JIVE
8 DID, INDEED, BECOME PARTS OF WHAT'S CALLED JINI.
9 Q. OKAY. LET'S GO BACK TO PAGE THREE OF THIS DOCUMENT
10 UNDER THE HEADING "ATTACKING INTEL FRANCHISE," AND LET'S
11 LOOK AT THE FIRST ITEM THERE, DR. GOSLING, "EMBEDDED CPU
12 DECAF, FAST, VERY SMALL, DIRECTLY EXECUTES BYTECODES."
13 AND DOESN'T THAT SUGGEST THAT THE VIRTUAL MACHINE
14 WAS GOING TO BE EMBEDDED ON THE CHIP ITSELF SO THAT THE
15 CHIP COULD DIRECTLY EXECUTE BYTECODES WITHOUT THE NEED FOR
16 ANY INTERVENING VIRTUAL MACHINE OR OPERATING SYSTEM?
17 A. THAT ONLY REFERS TO PUTTING--IT'S A RELATIVELY SMALL
18 AMOUNT OF THE VIRTUAL MACHINE INTO THE SILICON.
19 Q. BUT THAT WAS THE IDEA, WAS TO PUT A SIMPLE VERSION OF
20 THE VIRTUAL MACHINE ON THE SILICON; CORRECT?
21 A. NO, IT'S JUST A PART OF IT.
22 Q. THE PART OF IT THAT WOULD DIRECTLY EXECUTE BYTECODES?
23 A. SOME OF THE BYTECODES.
24 Q. AND ARE YOU AWARE THAT MR. SCHMIDT DISCUSSED THE
25 POSSIBILITY OF IMPLEMENTING A VIRTUAL MACHINE ON SILICON
77
1 WITH MR. MCNEALY IN 1975--I'M SORRY--1995 IN SEPTEMBER?
2 A. WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY "ON SILICON"? I MEAN, THAT COULD
3 BE JUST A PIECE OF SOFTWARE. EVERY PIECE OF SOFTWARE RUNS
4 ON A PIECE OF SILICON.
5 TAKING THE JAVA VIRTUAL MACHINE AND DOING A PURE
6 SILICON IMPLEMENTATION OF IT WOULD BE, ACTUALLY, A NUTTY
7 THING TO DO, TO USE A TECHNICAL TERM.
8 Q. I WILL ADOPT THE COURT'S SUGGESTION AND DIRECT YOUR
9 ATTENTION TO MR. SCHMIDT'S DEPOSITION WHICH I THINK YOU
10 HAVE STILL BEFORE YOU.
11 THE COURT: PAGE REFERENCE?
12 MR. BURT: THE PAGE IS PAGE 56, LINE SEVEN.
13 AND YOUR HONOR, AT THIS POINT, MR. SCHMIDT IS
14 TESTIFYING ABOUT A MEETING HE HAD WITH MR. MCNEALY IN
15 SEPTEMBER OF '95. AND YOU CAN GET THAT CONTEXT FROM PAGE
16 54.
17 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
18 MR. BURT: BUT TO SAVE TIME, THAT'S WHAT HE'S
19 TALKING ABOUT. IF YOU READ FROM THERE TO 57, LINE EIGHT.
20 THE COURT: AND YOUR QUESTION, THEN, IS...
21 BY MR. BURT:
22 Q. MY QUESTION, IS, DR. GOSLING, ISN'T MR. SCHMIDT
23 TALKING HERE ABOUT A DISCUSSION HE HAD WITH MR. MCNEALY
24 ABOUT IMPLEMENTING A VIRTUAL MACHINE IN THE SILICON OF A
25 CHIP?
78
1 THE COURT: IF YOU KNOW.
2 THE WITNESS: I MEAN, THE WORDS SAY WHAT THEY
3 SAY, BUT IMPLEMENTING--I MEAN, IMPLEMENTING THE ENTIRE
4 VIRTUAL MACHINE IN SILICON--YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW BAD
5 AN IDEA THAT IS. CERTAINLY, THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT
6 IMPLEMENTING PARTS OF THE VIRTUAL MACHINE IN SILICON. AND
7 ACTUALLY, THE BEST THINGS TO DO ARE, IF YOU REALLY WANT A
8 HIGH PERFORMANCE SYSTEM, YOU WOULDN'T IMPLEMENT ANY OF THE
9 VIRTUAL MACHINE IN SILICON, BUT THAT'S A DISCUSSION YOU
10 DON'T WANT TO HEAR BECAUSE IT'S VERY LONG.
11 AND THIS KIND OF THING IS REALLY ABOUT BUILDING
12 LOW-COST CHIPS FOR EMBEDDED SITUATIONS.
13 BY MR. BURT:
14 Q. IT WOULD ALSO HAVE HIGH PERFORMANCE SO THAT THE
15 BYTECODES COULD BE INTERPRETED ON THE CHIP ITSELF;
16 CORRECT?
17 A. IT TURNS OUT THAT THE MORE OF THE VIRTUAL MACHINE YOU
18 PUT INTO SILICON THE SLOWER IT GOES.
19 AND WHAT THEY WERE TRYING--WHAT THESE WERE TRYING
20 TO DO IS NOT ACHIEVE HIGH SPEED BUT SMALL SIZE.
21 Q. ALL RIGHT. AND IN THAT INSTANCE, THE BYTECODES,
22 HOWEVER, WOULD NOT GO THROUGH AN OPERATING SYSTEM TO BE
23 ACTED ON BY THE MICROPROCESSOR BUT WOULD BE ACTED ON
24 DIRECTLY BY THE MICROPROCESSOR; CORRECT?
25 A. THE MICROPROCESSOR EXECUTES A PROGRAM DIRECTLY EVEN
79
1 UNDER WINDOWS. THERE IS AN OPERATING SYSTEM THAT CONTROLS
2 THAT, THAT SORT OF TAKES THE PROGRAM AND CPU AND SORT OF
3 FITS THEM TOGETHER AND SAY, "HERE, IT'S YOUR TURN TO RUN,"
4 AND THERE WOULD STILL BE AN OPERATING SYSTEM ON SUCH A
5 MACHINE.
6 Q. BUT, DR. GOSLING, THE IDEA AND THE IDEA THAT'S BEING
7 EXPRESSED BY MR. JOY IN EXHIBIT 1289 FOR THE EMBEDDED CPU
8 DECAF IS TO PUT PART OF THAT VIRTUAL MACHINE INTO THE CHIP
9 ITSELF; CORRECT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. OKAY. AND THE NEXT ITEM ON PAGE THREE OF 1269 UNDER
12 ATTACKING THE INTEL FRANCHISE IS THE CAFE CHIP, AND IT
13 SAYS, "VERY FAST, 3-D FIRST THEN GENERAL PURPOSE";
14 CORRECT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. NOW, THE REFERENCE TO THE CAFE CHIP IS TO A PROJECT
17 THAT IS NOW KNOWN AS ULTRAJAVA; CORRECT?
18 A. CORRECT.
19 Q. AND THAT CHIP IS STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT AT SUN;
20 CORRECT?
21 A. CORRECT.
22 Q. AND IT'S EXPECTED TO TAPE OUT SOMETIME NEXT YEAR; IS
23 THAT CORRECT?
24 A. I'M NOT SURE WHAT ITS SCHEDULE IS.
25 Q. WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT--
80
1 MR. BURT: IF WE COULD PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
2 MR. JOY'S DEPOSITION--LET ME ASK THIS BEFORE WE DO THAT.
3 BY MR. BURT:
4 Q. WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT MR. JOY HAD
5 TESTIFIED THAT IT'S EXPECTED TO TAPE OUT SOMETIME IN 1999?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. AND TAPE OUT IS THE STATUS OF THE CHIP DESIGN AT
8 WHICH THE DESIGN HAS BEEN COMPLETED AND ITS FIRST BEING
9 IMPLEMENTED AS A PROTOTYPE ON SILICON, ITSELF; CORRECT?
10 A. CORRECT.
11 Q. NOW, MR. JOY RESTATED THIS BASIC JAVA PRODUCT
12 STRATEGY THAT HE SETS FORTH IN EXHIBIT 1289 AGAIN IN
13 FEBRUARY OF 1996; IS THAT RIGHT?
14 A. WELL.
15 Q. IN FEBRUARY OF 1996, DID MR. JOY RESTATE THIS
16 COMPETITIVE STRATEGY FOR JAVA PRODUCTS?
17 A. I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY DOCUMENTS THAT DO THAT.
18 Q. DO YOU RECALL ATTENDING ANY PRESENTATION BY MR. JOY
19 IN FEBRUARY OF 1996 RELATED TO HIS STRATEGY FOR JAVA AND
20 CAFE?
21 A. I MIGHT HAVE. I TALKED TO BILL MANY TIMES. I
22 DON'T--
23 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
24 EXHIBIT 1919, PLEASE.
25 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
81
1 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1919 IS A
2 PRESENTATION PREPARED BY MR. JOY IN FEBRUARY OF 1996, AND
3 I OFFER IT INTO EVIDENCE.
4 MR. BOIES: MAY I HAVE JUST A MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?
5 THE COURT: SURE.
6 (PAUSE.)
7 MR. BOIES: YOUR HONOR, I HAVE NO OBJECTION.
8 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. DEFENDANT'S 1919 IS
9 ADMITTED.
10 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1919 WAS
11 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
12 THE COURT: LOOKS LIKE HE DID IT ABOUT
13 VALENTINE'S DAY.
14 MR. BURT: THAT'S CORRECT, YOUR HONOR.
15 BY MR. BURT:
16 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING THIS PRESENTATION BEFORE,
17 DR. GOSLING?
18 A. NO, I DON'T RECALL BEING THERE.
19 Q. OKAY. AND DID YOU SEE THESE SLIDES AT ANY TIME OTHER
20 THAN AT THE PRESENTATION ITSELF?
21 MR. BOIES: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
22 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. HE SAYS HE DOESN'T RECALL
23 BEING THERE.
24 THE WITNESS: YEAH. AS FAR AS I CAN RECALL, THIS
25 IS MY FIRST EXPOSURE TO THESE SLIDES.
82
1 BY MR. BURT:
2 Q. OKAY. LOOK AT PAGE TWO OF THE DOCUMENT, PLEASE.
3 I'M SORRY. LET'S GO BACK TO PAGE ONE FOR A
4 MOMENT.
5 YOU SEE THE CIRCLE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PAGE,
6 DR. GOSLING, THAT SAYS "WINTEL" WITH A SLASH THROUGH IT,
7 2000?
8 A. UMM-HMM.
9 Q. DO YOU RECOGNIZE THIS AS MR. JOY'S HANDWRITING?
10 A. I DON'T RECALL HIS HANDWRITING WELL ENOUGH TO KNOW IF
11 THAT'S ACTUALLY HIS.
12 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SECOND PAGE, PLEASE. AND HERE
13 IT'S ENTITLED "JAVA STRATEGY" AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE. DO
14 YOU SEE THAT?
15 A. CORRECT.
16 Q. AND WNJ, THAT'S MR. JOY?
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. AND THIS INCLUDES A SERIES OF PRODUCTS OR PROJECTS
19 DOWN THE LEFT SIDE OF THE PAGE, AND IF YOU FOCUS ON THE
20 SECOND TO THE BOTTOM, IT SAYS "ENTERPRISE." DO YOU SEE
21 THAT?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. AND THEN JIVE?
24 A. CORRECT.
25 Q. AND THEN BELOW THAT, "NEW MEDIA/TRANSACTIONS AND
83
1 CAFE."
2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. AND IF YOU LOOK ON PAGE SIX OF THE DOCUMENT,
4 PLEASE--AND HERE AGAIN, MR. JOY IS TALKING ABOUT THE
5 STRATEGY OF DEVELOPING JIVE AS AN ENTERPRISE/INTERNET OS.
6 YOU SEE THAT AT THE TOP?
7 A. CORRECT.
8 Q. AND BELOW THE LINE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE IT SAYS
9 "KEY TO COMPETING WITH NT."
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE NEXT PAGE, PLEASE--AND THIS IS
12 A PAGE ABOUT CAFE; CORRECT?
13 A. CORRECT.
14 Q. AND YOU SEE THAT MR. JOY SAYS IN THE THIRD LINE THAT
15 IT WOULD BE OPTIMIZED FOR JAVA; CORRECT?
16 A. CORRECT. THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS THERE.
17 Q. AND AS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER, THAT'S YOUR
18 UNDERSTANDING OF THE PLAN FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THIS
19 PROJECT; CORRECT?
20 A. WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT
21 THE ULTRAJAVA CHIP PROJECT IS THAT AT ITS HEART, THIS
22 DESIGN IS ACTUALLY A PERFECTLY GENERAL-PURPOSE PROCESSOR.
23 THIS ONE, ACTUALLY, DOESN'T HAVE--DOESN'T INTERPRET JAVA
24 BYTECODES DIRECTLY. IT ACTUALLY NEEDS A VERY
25 SOPHISTICATED VM TO ALLOW IT TO--
84
1 THE COURT: YOU MEAN VIRTUAL MACHINE?
2 THE WITNESS: RIGHT, VIRTUAL MACHINE.
3 --TO ALLOW IT TO WORK, TO TAKE JAVA PROGRAMS AND
4 HAVE THEM RUN ON IT.
5 AND IN THE STRONG SENSE, IT'S THE TIE BETWEEN
6 ULTRAJAVA, THE ULTRAJAVA CHIP DESIGN AND JAVA THE LANGUAGE
7 IS NOT SO MUCH ONE OF THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE DESIGN OF THE
8 INSTRUCTIONS IN THE LANGUAGE. IT'S MORE A--IT'S MORE OF A
9 BUSINESS PRINCIPLE, I GUESS I SHOULD SAY, BECAUSE WHEN YOU
10 DESIGN A NEW CPU CHIP, IT ONLY BECOMES A VIABLE BUSINESS
11 PROPOSITION WHEN THERE ARE APPLICATIONS THAT CAN RUN ON
12 IT. SO, IF YOU INVENT SOMETHING NEW, UNLESS YOU GOT A
13 PATH TO GETTING APPLICATIONS ON IT, THERE IS NO POINT IN
14 DOING IT.
15 AND SO, THE CAFE DESIGN OR THE ULTRAJAVA DESIGN
16 HAS, ACTUALLY, RELATIVELY LITTLE IN IT THAT IS SPECIFIC TO
17 JAVA. IN FACT, THERE HAS BEEN--THERE ARE C COMPILERS FOR
18 IT, BUT IT IS JUST A RADICALLY DIFFERENT CPU DESIGN THAT,
19 IT IS OUR HOPE, MAKES BUSINESS SENSE IN DESIGN BECAUSE
20 THERE WILL BE APPLICATIONS THAT RUN ON IT.
21 BY MR. BURT:
22 Q. BUT IT HAS BEEN OPTIMIZED FOR JAVA; CORRECT?
23 A. IN RELATIVELY SMALL WAYS. IT'S A PRETTY STRANGE
24 MACHINE.
25 Q. AND THE IDEA--COMPETITIVE STRATEGY THAT WAS BEING
85
1 ARTICULATED IN THE DOCUMENTS WE HAVE BEEN REVIEWING IS
2 THAT THIS CHIP, COMBINED WITH JAVA APPLICATIONS, WOULD, AS
3 MR. JOY SHOWS RATHER GRAPHICALLY ON THE FRONT OF
4 EXHIBIT 1919, OPERATE ENTIRELY WITHOUT INTEL OR MICROSOFT
5 PRODUCTS; CORRECT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND, IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT THE LAST PAGE OF THAT
8 EXHIBIT, 1919, THE ULTIMATE GOAL, AS MR. JOY STATES AT THE
9 BOTTOM OF PAGE EIGHT, IS TO RECAPTURE THE DESKTOP;
10 CORRECT?
11 A. YES, THAT'S HIS--THAT'S WHAT HE WROTE.
12 Q. NOW, DURING THE SAME TIME PERIOD, DR. GOSLING--AND BY
13 THAT I MEAN LATE 1995 THROUGH EARLY 1996 WE HAVE BEEN
14 COVERING WITH THE LAST SEVERAL DOCUMENTS--SUN WAS ALSO
15 DECIDING WHETHER OR NOT TO LICENSE JAVA TO MICROSOFT;
16 CORRECT?
17 A. YEAH, I THINK IT'S ABOUT THAT TIME.
18 Q. OKAY. AND DO YOU RECALL THAT SUN ENTERED INTO--IN A
19 LETTER OF INTENT WITH MICROSOFT ON DECEMBER 6TH, 1995?
20 A. I DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATES AND SEQUENCING OF
21 THE VARIOUS AGREEMENTS.
22 Q. DO YOU RECALL THAT IT WAS IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO A
23 DECEMBER 7TH, 1995, EVENT AT WHICH MICROSOFT ANNOUNCED ITS
24 INTERNET STRATEGY? DOES THAT REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION?
25 A. I REMEMBER THEM BEING ROUGHLY CONTEMPORANEOUS. I
86
1 DON'T REMEMBER THE EXACT DATES.
2 Q. AND SEVERAL MONTHS LATER AFTER NEGOTIATIONS,
3 MICROSOFT AND SUN ENTERED INTO A TECHNOLOGY LICENSE AND
4 DISTRIBUTION AGREEMENT IN MARCH OF 1996; CORRECT?
5 A. CERTAINLY.
6 Q. AND YOU WERE NOT PERSONALLY INVOLVED IN THE
7 NEGOTIATIONS WITH MICROSOFT RELATED TO THAT AGREEMENT,
8 WERE YOU?
9 A. NO, I WAS NOT.
10 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN THE AGREEMENT?
11 A. I HAVE SEEN IT.
12 Q. NOW, PRIOR TO THE LETTER OF INTENT IN DECEMBER 1996,
13 YOU QUESTIONED, PERSONALLY QUESTIONED, WHETHER SUN SHOULD
14 BE LICENSING MICROSOFT; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?
15 A. YES, THERE IS AN E-MAIL THAT I SENT.
16 MR. BURT: COULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
17 EXHIBIT 1997, PLEASE.
18 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
19 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1997 IS A COPY OF
20 AN E-MAIL MESSAGE FROM MR. JOY TO MR. GOSLING AND OTHERS,
21 AND I BELIEVE THE TESTIMONY WILL SHOW THAT IT'S RESPONDING
22 TO AN E-MAIL MESSAGE FROM MR. GOSLING TO MR. JOY AND
23 OTHERS THAT'S EMBEDDED IN THIS MESSAGE, AND I OFFER IT
24 INTO EVIDENCE.
25 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
87
1 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1997 IS ADMITTED.
2 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1997 WAS
3 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
4 BY MR. BURT:
5 Q. AND DR. GOSLING, FIRST JUST GENERALLY, IS THAT A
6 CORRECT CHARACTERIZATION? IS THIS EXHIBIT AN E-MAIL
7 MESSAGE FROM MR. JOY RESPONDING TO AN E-MAIL MESSAGE FROM
8 YOU THAT IS EMBEDDED?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. AND BOTH THOSE E-MAIL MESSAGES ARE DATED NOVEMBER
11 30TH, 1995; CORRECT?
12 A. THEY ARE.
13 Q. AND FOR THE CLARITY IN TERMS OF THE FORMAT OF THE WAY
14 THIS E-MAIL IS PRESENTED, THE LINES THAT HAVE CARROTS
15 BEFORE THEM IN THE LEFT MARGIN ARE LINES INDICATING YOUR
16 ORIGINAL E-MAIL MESSAGE, AND THE LINES WITH NO CARROTS ARE
17 MR. JOY'S RESPONSES TO YOU; CORRECT?
18 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
19 Q. I WOULD LIKE TO BEGIN BY GOING OVER SOME OF YOUR
20 COMMENTS. YOU START, AND THIS IS, IF WE COULD TAKE THE
21 BLOCK WITH THE CARROTS IN THE LEFT MARGIN, YOU START BY
22 SAYING, "I HAVE BEEN HEARING BITS AND PIECES ABOUT THE
23 MICROSOFT NEGOTIATIONS. I HAVE VERY MIXED FEELINGS I
24 WOULD LIKE TO EXPRESS. THIS IS GETTING RUSHED, AND IT
25 DOESN'T FEEL LIKE IT'S BEING THOUGHT THROUGH CAREFULLY."
88
1 I TAKE IT THAT WAS YOUR OPINION AT THE TIME?
2 A. IT WAS, BUT THEN I WASN'T EXPOSED TO ALL THAT WAS
3 GOING ON IN EXACTLY HOW LONG THEY HAD BEEN HAPPENING.
4 Q. OKAY. AND THEN NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE IT SAYS,
5 AGAIN WHERE THE CARROTS ARE, "IT WOULD BE A HUGE WIN IN
6 TERMS OF CAPTURING SEATS. JAVA WOULD INSTANTLY BECOME A
7 GALACTIC STANDARD, BUT THERE ARE MANY PROBLEMS."
8 DO YOU SEE THAT?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID MR. JOY EVER TELL YOU--AND IT'S NOT IN THIS
11 DOCUMENT, DR. GOSLING, BUT DID HE EVER TELL YOU THAT HE
12 DISAGREED WITH THAT VIEW BECAUSE IT WAS HIS VIEW THAT
13 MICROSOFT WOULD IMPLEMENT JAVA TECHNOLOGY, ONE WAY OR
14 ANOTHER, WHETHER OR NOT IT LICENSED THE TECHNOLOGY FROM
15 SUN?
16 A. WOULD YOU SAY THAT AGAIN?
17 Q. DID MR. JOY EVER TELL YOU THAT HE DISAGREED WITH YOUR
18 VIEW THAT THIS LICENSE WOULD BE A HUGE WIN IN TERMS OF
19 CAPTURING SEATS BECAUSE HE ANTICIPATED THAT MICROSOFT
20 WOULD IMPLEMENT JAVA TECHNOLOGY WITH OR WITHOUT A LICENSE
21 FROM SUN?
22 A. I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING LIKE THAT FROM MR. JOY.
23 Q. DO YOU RECALL HEARING AT ANY TIME IN THIS TIME FRAME
24 THAT MICROSOFT WAS DEVELOPING ITS OWN IMPLEMENTATION OF
25 JAVA?
89
1 A. YES, I REMEMBER AT THE TIME HEARING THAT, THAT THEY
2 HAD IMPLEMENTED PARTS OF THE TECHNOLOGY. AND
3 SPECIFICALLY, THEY HAD DONE PARTS OF A VIRTUAL MACHINE.
4 Q. IF YOU LOOK AT PAGE TWO, AND IT'S THE FOURTH
5 PARAGRAPH, I BELIEVE, THAT'S GOT CARROTS, THE PARAGRAPH
6 ABOVE THAT, THAT SAYS, "THE PR IMPLICATIONS ARE BIZARRE,
7 TOO. JAVA HAS BEEN POSITIONED BY US IN THE PRESS AS THE
8 WORLD'S SALVATION FROM MICROSOFT."
9 WAS THAT THE POSITION THAT SUN WAS TAKING FOR
10 JAVA AT THE TIME?
11 A. I THINK IT WASN'T SO MUCH THE POSITION THAT WE
12 WERE--THAT WE WERE TAKING, AND--I MEAN, IT WAS LARGELY
13 SEEN AS A WAY FOR DEVELOPERS TO BE ABLE TO WRITE
14 APPLICATIONS AND NOT BE TIED INTO WHATEVER MICROSOFT DID,
15 SO THEY COULD STILL WRITE THEIR APPLICATIONS AND NOT BE
16 LOCKED OUT OF THE MICROSOFT WORLD, BUT THEY COULD ALSO
17 SELL THEIR APPLICATIONS ON THE MAC.
18 Q. DID YOU SAY IT WAS NOT YOUR VIEW THAT SUN WAS TAKING
19 THE POSITION THAT JAVA WAS SALVATION FROM MICROSOFT?
20 A. I'M HAVING A HARD TIME--
21 Q. LET ME DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO THE SAME SENTENCE,
22 DR. GOSLING. I'M NOT SURE I HEARD YOUR TESTIMONY
23 CORRECTLY.
24 IT SAYS HERE, "JAVA HAS BEEN POSITIONED BY US IN
25 THE PRESS AS THE WORLD'S SALVATION FROM MICROSOFT."
90
1 A. RIGHT.
2 Q. WAS THAT AN ACCURATE STATEMENT INSOFAR AS SUN WAS
3 CONCERNED?
4 A. YEAH, BUT I THINK WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY WAS THE
5 POSITIONING FROM THE PRESS SIDE WAS, AT LEAST FROM MY
6 PERCEPTION, WAS REALLY PRETTY OVERWHELMING. WE DID A
7 CERTAIN AMOUNT OF WORK IN THAT POSITIONING, AND I'M NOT
8 EXACTLY SURE WHAT POSITIONING WE DID, BUT MY RECOLLECTION
9 OF THE PRESS POSITION WAS VERY STRONGLY IN THIS DIRECTION.
10 Q. WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS YOU DID YOU ARE VERY SPECIFIC
11 ABOUT TWO PARAGRAPHS LATER, THE NEXT PARAGRAPH THAT'S PART
12 OF YOUR ORIGINAL E-MAIL MESSAGE THAT SAYS, "ONE VERY LARGE
13 PROBLEM THAT I HAVE HEARD NO DISCUSSION ABOUT IS HOW THIS
14 WILL AFFECT OUR LICENSEES. NEARLY EVERY LICENSING
15 NEGOTIATION HAS OPENED WITH, QUOTE, WE SEE JAVA AS A WAY
16 TO ATTACK THE EVIL EMPIRE, CLOSED QUOTE. THIS COULD
17 EASILY SCARE EXISTING LICENSEES SHITLESS AND ELIMINATES
18 ONE OF THE STRONGEST MOTIVATIONS THAT FOLKS HAVE FOR
19 LICENSING JAVA."
20 THOSE WERE YOUR WORDS; CORRECT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. AND WHEN YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE EVIL EMPIRE IN THAT
23 SENTENCE, YOU ARE REFERRING TO MICROSOFT, AREN'T YOU?
24 A. YES.
25 MANY OF MICROSOFT'S CUSTOMERS, WHO WERE ALSO OUR
91
1 CUSTOMERS, WERE DEEPLY FEARFUL OF MICROSOFT, AND TENDED TO
2 THINK OF MICROSOFT THAT WAY.
3 Q. AND SUN TOOK THE POSITION WITH POTENTIAL LICENSEES
4 THAT THE JAVA TECHNOLOGY WAS A WAY TO COMPETE AGAINST
5 MICROSOFT; CORRECT?
6 A. YES. IT WOULD CERTAINLY HELP THEM IN THAT
7 COMPETITION.
8 Q. NOW, DID YOU RECEIVE A RESPONSE TO YOUR E-MAIL--IN
9 ADDITION TO THE ONE FROM MR. JOY, DID YOU RECEIVE A
10 RESPONSE TO YOUR E-MAIL FROM ERIC SCHMIDT, THE CHIEF
11 TECHNOLOGY OFFICER?
12 A. I DON'T REMEMBER ONE. I WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED IF
13 THERE WAS ONE.
14 MR. BURT: WOULD YOU PLACE BEFORE THE WITNESS
15 WHAT HAS BEEN MARKED AS EXHIBIT 1993, PLEASE.
16 (DOCUMENT HANDED TO THE WITNESS.)
17 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, EXHIBIT 1993 IS AN E-MAIL
18 MESSAGE THAT APPEARS TO BE FROM MR. SCHMIDT TO MR. GOSLING
19 AND OTHERS, AND I OFFER IT INTO EVIDENCE.
20 MR. BOIES: NO OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
21 THE COURT: DEFENDANT'S 1993 IS ADMITTED.
22 (DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT NO. 1993 WAS
23 ADMITTED INTO EVIDENCE.)
24 BY MR. BURT:
25 Q. AND MR. GOSLING, THIS EXHIBIT IS ERIC SCHMIDT'S
92
1 RESPONSE TO YOUR E-MAIL MESSAGE THAT WE JUST LOOKED AT;
2 CORRECT?
3 A. CORRECT.
4 Q. AND I'M NOT SURE WE DID THIS ON THE LAST MESSAGE.
5 LET'S DO IT HERE.
6 MR. SCHMIDT, WHOSE NAME APPEARS AFTER THE FROM
7 ITEM, THE TWO THAT'S WNG (SIC), THAT'S BILL JOY; CORRECT?
8 A. CORRECT.
9 Q. I'M SORRY. I MISSPOKE. WNJ IS BILL JOY; CORRECT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND THEN ERIC DOT SCHMIDT IS SENDING A COPY TO
12 HIMSELF?
13 A. CORRECT.
14 Q. SCOTT MCNEALY WE IDENTIFIED. JAG, THAT'S YOU;
15 CORRECT?
16 A. CORRECT.
17 Q. AND THEN THE CC'S GO TO MIKE CLARY, WHO WAS AN
18 INDIVIDUAL AT SUN THAT WORKED CLOSELY WITH MR. JOY;
19 CORRECT?
20 A. CORRECT.
21 Q. RUTH H. WHO IS THAT?
22 A. THAT WAS RUTH HENIGARR. SHE WAS THE HEAD OF THE JAVA
23 PROJECT PRODUCTS GROUP.
24 Q. AND SHE WAS HEAD OF THAT GROUP UNTIL THE FOLLOWING
25 MONTH WHEN MR. BARATZ WAS HIRED AND IT BECAME JAVASOFT;
93
1 CORRECT?
2 A. CORRECT.
3 Q. AND THEN JEK, THAT'S MR. KANNEGAARD?
4 A. CORRECT.
5 Q. AND THEN WHO IS SHERIDAN?
6 A. THAT'S MIKE SHERIDAN. HE WAS ONE OF THE FOUNDING
7 MEMBERS OF THE GREEN PROJECT BACK IN 1990.
8 Q. AND MR. SCHMIDT SAYS TO YOU, "JAMES, GOOD SUMMARY. I
9 AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT. I COME DOWN ON THE SIDE OF
10 LICENSING TO MICROSOFT BECAUSE I BELIEVE WE CAN OUTRUN
11 THEM, AND I BELIEVE THEIR INTEREST IN JAVA IS DEFENSIVE;
12 I.E., WE WILL LEAD AND WE CAN FORCE THEM TO GRUDGINGLY
13 FOLLOW. THE IMPACT ON OUR OTHER LICENSEES IS A VERY
14 SERIOUS ISSUE, AND MY PLAN IS TO ASK THEM FOR INPUT ON
15 THIS AS A WAY OF HAVING THEM PARTICIPATE IN THE OUTCOME."
16 DO YOU SEE THAT?
17 A. CORRECT.
18 Q. NOW, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER--SORRY--DO YOU KNOW WHETHER
19 ANYONE, IN FACT, ASKED FOR INPUT FROM OTHER JAVA LICENSEES
20 BEFORE THE DECISION WAS MADE TO ENTER INTO THE AGREEMENT
21 WITH MICROSOFT?
22 A. I DIDN'T DO ANY OF THAT. MY IMPRESSION IS THAT SOME
23 OF THAT WAS DONE.
24 Q. DO YOU RECALL HEARING THAT NETSCAPE, IN PARTICULAR,
25 WAS ASKED FOR WHAT THEY THOUGHT ABOUT LICENSING MICROSOFT?
94
1 A. I KNOW THAT WE HAD CONVERSATIONS ABOUT LICENSING
2 WITH--LICENSING TO MICROSOFT WITH NETSCAPE. WE NEVER
3 ASKED THEM THEIR PERMISSION.
4 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT NETSCAPE'S REACTION WAS AT THE
5 TIME IN LATE 1995?
6 A. THEY WERE RATHER NEGATIVE.
7 Q. DID YOU AGREE WITH MR. SCHMIDT THAT SUN WOULD BE ABLE
8 TO OUTRUN MICROSOFT IN TERMS OF DEVELOPING JAVA?
9 A. IT WAS A VERY DIFFICULT PROPOSITION. MICROSOFT HAS,
10 ESSENTIALLY, AN INFINITELY DEEP POCKETBOOK AND CAN FUND
11 PROJECTS FAR BEYOND WHAT ANYBODY ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY CAN
12 DO. SO, OUR ABILITY TO RUN THEM IS REALLY LIMITED TO SORT
13 OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY DECIDED TO BOTHER.
14 Q. SO, IT WOULD DEPEND ON HOW MUCH OF THE $8 BILLION IN
15 ANNUAL REVENUE YOU COULD CONVINCE MANAGEMENT TO DEVOTE TO
16 THIS PROJECT?
17 A. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REVENUE AND PROFIT.
18 MOST OF THAT REVENUE GOES TO BUYING THE PARTS WE BUILD OUR
19 MACHINES WITH.
20 THE ACTUAL BUDGET THAT WE HAD AVAILABLE TO US FOR
21 RUNNING THE JAVA PROJECT HAS BEEN NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT
22 MICROSOFT POURS INTO ENGINEERING.
23 Q. OKAY. DID YOU TELL MR. SCHMIDT THAT YOU DISAGREED
24 AND YOU THOUGHT MICROSOFT WOULD OUTRUN SUN IF YOU LICENSED
25 THE TECHNOLOGY TO MICROSOFT?
95
1 A. I DON'T KNOW IF I EVER SAID ANYTHING LIKE THAT TO
2 HIM.
3 Q. DO YOU RECALL EVER RESPONDING TO THIS MESSAGE AT ALL?
4 A. NO, I DON'T.
5 MR. BURT: YOUR HONOR, I'M ABOUT TO CHANGE
6 SUBJECT MATTERS. WOULD THIS BE A CONVENIENT TIME TO
7 RECESS?
8 THE COURT: IF IT'S CONVENIENT FOR YOU, SURE.
9 MR. BURT: IT WOULD BE.
10 THE COURT: CAN YOU GIVE A ROUGH ESTIMATE AS TO
11 WHETHER OR NOT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO FINISH WITH HIM
12 TOMORROW?
13 MR. BURT: I THINK IT WILL TAKE ME MORE THAN ONE
14 MORE DAY, YOUR HONOR, AND PROBABLY LAST JUST A BIT LONGER
15 THAN THAT. I'M GOING TO TRY TO GET MY ENTIRE EXAMINATION
16 COMPLETED IN NO MORE THAN A DAY AND A HALF MORE.
17 THE COURT: AND YOU ANTICIPATE REDIRECT,
18 MR. BOIES?
19 MR. BOIES: YES, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
21 MR. BOIES: MAY WE APPROACH THE BENCH FOR A
22 MOMENT?
23 THE COURT: SURE.
24 (BENCH CONFERENCE.)
25 MR. BOIES: WITH THE COURT'S PERMISSION, I HAVE
96
1 INQUIRED OF MICROSOFT COUNSEL, AND THEY ARE AGREEABLE TO
2 INTERRUPTING MR. GOSLING'S TESTIMONY THE NEXT COURT DATE
3 NEXT WEEK, THAT IS TUESDAY, TO PUT ON MR. FARBER. FOR
4 SCHEDULING REASONS, MR. FARBER IS RUNNING OUT OF TIME.
5 HE'S LEAVING FOR THE WEST COAST, HAWAII FOR BUSINESS
6 MEETING SCHEDULE THAT HE CAN'T PUT OFF. AND BECAUSE OF
7 THE WAY THE TRIAL HAS PROGRESSED, HE IS BEING PUSHED LATER
8 AND LATER, SO WE NEED TO PUT HIM ON TUESDAY MORNING, IF
9 THAT'S OKAY.
10 THE COURT: PERFECTLY ALL RIGHT.
11 MR. WARDEN: WE HAVE NO OBJECTION.
12 MR. BURT: THAT'S OKAY WITH DR. GOSLING? I
13 THOUGHT HE'S GOT SOME EVENT IN NEW YORK NEXT WEEK.
14 MR. BOIES: YES. WE ALSO TALKED TO MR. GOSLING,
15 OR DR. GOSLING, ABOUT IT TO GET HIS PERMISSION AS WELL.
16 THE COURT: OKAY. MAY I REMIND YOU, MR. BURT,
17 THAT AS IN-HOUSE COUNSEL, YOU AND MR. NEUKOM ARE BOTH
18 PRECLUDED BY YOUR ETHICAL OBLIGATIONS FROM IMPARTING THE
19 INFORMATION WHICH HAS BEEN PLACED UNDER SEAL?
20 MR. BURT: ABSOLUTELY, YOUR HONOR, WE UNDERSTAND
21 THAT.
22 THE COURT: THROUGH THE CORPORATE HIERARCHY?
23 MR. BURT: ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTOOD, YOUR HONOR.
24 THE COURT: AND YOU CAN REMIND MR. NEUKOM OF THAT
25 OBLIGATION?
97
1 MR. BURT: I WILL DO SO.
2 THE COURT: THANK YOU, GENTLEMEN. SEE YOU
3 TOMORROW MORNING AT 10:00.
4 (END OF BENCH CONFERENCE.)
5 THE COURT: WE NOW STAND IN RECESS UNTIL 10:00
6 TOMORROW MORNING.
7 (WHEREUPON, AT 4:40 P.M., THE HEARING WAS
8 ADJOURNED UNTIL 10:00 A.M., THE FOLLOWING DAY.)
9
10
11
12
13
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98
1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
2
3 I, DAVID A. KASDAN, RPR, COURT REPORTER, DO
4 HEREBY TESTIFY THAT THE FOREGOING PROCEEDINGS WERE
5 STENOGRAPHICALLY RECORDED BY ME AND THEREAFTER REDUCED TO
6 TYPEWRITTEN FORM BY COMPUTER-ASSISTED TRANSCRIPTION UNDER
7 MY DIRECTION AND SUPERVISION; AND THAT THE FOREGOING
8 TRANSCRIPT IS A TRUE RECORD AND ACCURATE RECORD OF THE
9 PROCEEDINGS.
10 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT I AM NEITHER COUNSEL FOR,
11 RELATED TO, NOR EMPLOYED BY ANY OF THE PARTIES TO THIS
12 ACTION IN THIS PROCEEDING, NOR FINANCIALLY OR OTHERWISE
13 INTERESTED IN THE OUTCOME OF THIS LITIGATION.
14
______________________
15 DAVID A. KASDAN
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