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^

Idle Hands says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:38:55 2000 62.7.77.1)
Morning all, although I think it's the middle of the night for most of you. Still stuck at home with the flu so I'm back. Not wanting to jump in in the midle of a debate, or wanting to bring up a topic/ argument thats been talked about to death but...... I'm going to anyway. You all see to be going on about the sexual relationships in the show, so here is my point of view.
POSSIBLE SPOILER FOR UK VIEWERS



Let me just say that the whole Willow/Tara was a brave move by Joss. I thought it was well written and GREAT performances by both women. I don't see why many people made such a big fuss, I mean why kind of fans are they if they can't handle a little spice in their life. It wasn't as if we even got to see them do anything. Joss (and everyone else) handled the situation with sensativity. The most we saw was Willow and Tara hold hands, touch the others knee and play with hair. So I ask you, what is the big deal?
The only thing that shocked me was the Parker Buffy storyline, I sat bolt upright when I saw Buffy jump into bed with Parker. I agree it was a neccesary move to make to show the reality of uni life, but from there on out I loked at Buffy with different eyes. But I don't agree she is a slut(sorry for the language, i know there could be children reading).In my eyes Buffy grew up, she was all of a sudden sexual, I know she had already slept with Angel but this was different.
So anyway, if anyone has a take on my views then I'm all ears, I like nothing more than a good debate.


^

Sally says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:38:48 2000 165.69.4.126)
I wasn't here for long...but I have to leave now...for all who care...i will be back.


^

Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:29:18 2000 209.148.229.215)
Dem
Thank you!
You hit it on the head there.

I'm gonna plunk in my experience in that area (bear with).
I work in a male dominated field and for the most part, I don't "draw like a girl". This "novelty" has been a real pain over the years because I'd hoped people would see beyond my gender and just look at the work. I try to ignore the issue as much as possible because I didn't get into this job to be a woman in comics... I did it to be in comics.

I guess that the appeal of Buffy, for me, is that yeah it started with the High Concept of "chick fights monsters" and went beyond it to "talented slayer faces the world's challenges (and oh yeah she's a girl)".
So she's like this huge success story... *sigh* over-identify much?

The nice thing is that recently, the novelty has started to take a back seat to the portfolio and I couldn't be happier.
Hope for all of us?

(cue the twilight zone music)


^

Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:25:42 2000 216.34.244.103)
RSOs to Deborah, Balf

JSF: You're quite welcome. *g* And return greetings.

DeMoriel!: Heya. I see we agree yet again. Yea us. lol.


^

Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:22:26 2000 208.221.155.1)
JSF: Welllll.No. Exodus was a Knight (like mideval times) who was genetically altered by Apocalypse. He was rebelious to A and was placed in a state of suspension for hundreds of years (until Magneto found him and released him). Therefore, he worshipped Magneto like a god but was always plotting an overthrow. He was extremely powerful and could have been one of the top characters but they just had crappy writers at the time who wasted his character and then "killed" him. Which in the X-men comics means absolutely nothing.


^

Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:21:28 2000 209.86.149.10)
Dem Nothing wrong with Buffy being human, but the way she breaks stereotypes is she is she has no clear role in the world. She wants what everyone else does, but, yea there is a slayer handbook, but its not for Buffy. She has duties and desires, and they dont match, and unlike maybe in times before, she has to decide on the fly how to handle it. And she tends to mess up alot.


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Sally says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:21:15 2000 165.69.4.126)
DeMoriel: OK, sorry...guess i have a few things to catch on to here.

On another note I'm not as up to date with characters as you all...I'm stuck on Aussie time.


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:16:36 2000 152.163.213.49)
DeMoriel
You also must take into account that Xander is at his sexual peak. The testosterone is pumping. If bombarded with what Xander has been through I would be very scared, hiding in a concrete bunker with a big rifle or be excited about the next woman and pray she doesn't turn into a giant mantis.


^

DeM says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:13:28 2000 134.173.144.116)
Terwilliger: OOPS! you are right! Mea culpa. So many losers, you can't really expect me to keep them all straight in my head... especially with a gimpy name like "PARKER."

:-) :-) :-) :-)

no offense if your name is Parker


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DeMoriel says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:12:06 2000 134.173.144.116)
Sally: That was me that was calling Xander a slut, and I was joking dearie, to make a point. ;-) welcome to the bronze

JSF: I think Xander enjoyed getting taken, just a leetle bit too much ;-)


^

Akodo Terwilliger says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:11:41 2000 216.78.186.67)
DeMoriel: I don't think she and Scott went past the occasional liplock stage. Perhaps you're thinking of Parker.

Brad Grenz: Something like that.

Paul Walters: As DeMoriel stated, three people in four years isn't quite up to trampy snuff.

Deborah: Maybe Buffy gets the tramp prize because we've seen her with exactly one more partner than we've seen Spike, Giles, Xander or Willow with.

Exodus: I never really liked him. He didn't use his actual name like everyone else (I wouldn't have minded being called Bennett all the time) and he came off kinda twinky. (lotta power; little backstory) The Kleinstocks were far cooler.

Akodo Terwilliger

("Any shape imaginable and you choose that?")


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:10:07 2000 152.163.213.49)
Exodus
Wasn't Exodus a former pupil of Apocolypse? I think I saw that in an old issue.

DeMoriel
But Xander has always lived in the shy world of geekdom. Ever since he met up with Buffy, he has a better chance with the ladies, ok, most are demons or some supernatural being. With Faith I doubt anyone could refuse given the fact she could just take what she wants. *eg*

Olivia
Thank you. Hello by the way. *g*


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Sally says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:09:44 2000 165.69.4.126)
Paul:
I can see your point on Buffy but Xander is not a slut, he's just a loser who doesn't know real love when he's confronted with it.


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:09:03 2000 209.86.149.10)
JSF The Star Trek world is like, ok, lets assume in the future we will have a military like hierchy. Then we plug people in as needed. Will there be a "captain" in 2200 space? I dunno. Its all based on a 60's show where the women wore short skirts and the status needed some knocking around. "Captain Janeway" is just a female acting in a patriarchal role.


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Balf says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:06:18 2000 203.43.238.73)
L.O.S.E.R.s !!

SO's to Amelia, Angelique's Faith, Angeloudi, Angel's Angelus, Antipodean, Blaberus, {dru}, Elly, fenric, fire&ice;, Jassa, Juggernaut, Lib, Miskatonic, Morella, Olivia, Scram, Shadowslayer, Suekib, Thumper, Wicca, Witchy Woman, X-Lander and all other LOSERs and lurkers.

Suekib - {{{Smooch}}} I'm here at last *g*

Angelique's Faith - Now exams are over, let the fun begin *g*

I have a club and you can't join club #1

s-Suekib-d

Balf the flabless


^

DeM says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:06:12 2000 134.173.144.116)
Another thought: I hesitate to call Buffy a "feminist" show or any kind of show because then we have to hold Buffy up as the poster child for feminism... The problem with that is that she is portrayed as being HUMAN, with a talent. the vapid blonde cheerleader side of her is part of the humor, part of the personality... e.g. the fact that she fights in ridiculous shoes and poofy coats. I don't want to be slapping labels on her, or on Joss's direction... well mostly because there's so much danger of "mis-representing" said poster child... "What kind of feminist is Buffy, that she'd go out to fight but worries about chipping a nail?" ARGH. It's a show, it's meant to entertain, not to model or set standards... I enjoy Buffy not on a feminist level but on a personal level, on her ability as a person to accomplish her goals, stand up for herself and overcome adversity, not because she stands (or should stand) for all women. :-)

whoo, that was rant-y. I guess I agree with the folks that are minimizing the importance of gender, here. *g*

DeMoriel
yay! topicy LOSERs! lovin' it


^

Sally says:
(Fri Nov 10 02:04:16 2000 165.69.4.126)
Well from what i gather of reading this discussion i have to agree with shelley


^

Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:59:58 2000 209.148.229.215)
Exodus
Yeah, I gave up on X-men ages ago... even with Claremont's return, just doesn't do it for me anymore. I think because they just have too much history now and you can expect a group of people, superheroes or not, to experience only so much in their lives.

Although I have to admit Bachalo's work made me melt.


^

Deborah says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:57:09 2000 62.172.134.1)
Grrrrrrr catch that tag!!


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:56:42 2000 152.163.213.49)
I hate when that happens. Sorry.

Shelley
Gender, religious background or the amout of melanin in the skin only becomes an issue when people choose to see it. The concept of an egalitarian system is what I hold dear to. Gender is not a consideration for anything, it is the merrit and strength of the individual. I love "Buffy" for the great stories and the way the protagonist handles things that drive many insane AND also fights the forces of darkness. By your statement, that would also make Star Trek Voyager a feminist show, especially with a female captain and head engineer, the 2 most imprtant positions on a ship. But I like Buffy more since it has the better storyline. Does this also make Alien Saga feminist since Ripley is a woman? To everyone I know that watched the entire series, they cared only of the story and the alien's themselves. The point is, who care's if the Slayer is a Buffy or a Biff, the truth is how the plot unfolds for a good story.

PS - I prefer a female slayer since Joss established that slayer's are always women. In another universe it might work for a male slayer, but not in the Buffyverse.


^

Deborah says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:56:39 2000 62.172.134.1)
Hey Exodus Im fine How are you.
That was a deep comment.

Paul Walters: So why is it okay for spike to sleep with Harmony? Or Xander to Sleep with Anya why arent they called tramps?

That is my only comment I Hope on this debate because ive barged in the middle of it. Also there can be no winners these arguments have been raging on for centuries.

Any cut Buffy some slack shes gotta get it while she can I mean her life expectancy isnt passed 25!!


^

DeMoriel says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:56:37 2000 134.173.144.116)
Hi, Olivia et al...

Paul Walters: Let's see. I may be wrong here, but it's a rough estimate: Buffy was with Angel, Scott Hope, and Riley. (Am I missing anyone?) She's been in serious relationships with two of the three, and she was with Angel only once. (erased sex doesn't count *g*) And from my perspective, she wasn't with Scott just for the sex, she hoped to foster a relationship and got taken for a ride (no pun intended). Approximately 3 people in the course of 3-4 years. Gee. If that makes someone a tramp, I know a lot of people who are in big trouble. *g* Why don't you also complain about Xander, who was with Faith and Anya and swapping spit with Cordy every chance he got? Chasing after that Incan mummy girl? Lusting after his french teacher? He didn't even have any kind of relationship with Faith! It was all about the mindless sex. He's a slut, if ever I saw one!

3/4th of this is tongue in cheek, the other 3/4ths is pure frustation

DeMoriel
femaleist


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:54:51 2000 209.86.149.10)
Exodus Buffy seems good for almost endless topics. I dont know why.


^

Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:50:56 2000 209.86.149.10)
Shelley ok, goodnight. Buffy always seems to be good for in depth discussion. Im not up on sex v. gender, if you can give me the theory to think about, that would be good.


^

lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:50:22 2000 209.171.24.42)
Deborah Nah, this is good and calm discussion, the way it should be. :) RSO BTW. *g*


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Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:50:02 2000 208.221.155.1)
shelly: but..sex and love are also two different things..So there! (BTW, I don't know what relevance that has..I just wanted to sound like a deep thinker...did it work?)
Deb-inator! Howya doin?


^

Deborah says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:47:30 2000 62.172.134.1)
Um Hi

scrolling to avoid apparant debate.

SOs Angels Angelus, Angeliques Faith, Vader, Meteor, Amish Boy, Maueve, Exodus, Lost Boy, Olivia, Belmont, Juggernaut, Zedsdead.


what came first the chicken or the egg?
can I have a bacon roll
Buffy and Angel Belong together


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:47:10 2000 209.86.149.10)
Shelley and JSE That Buffy is a girl IS a difference. They had some female superheroes before her but they were cartoons.


^

Sally says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:46:30 2000 165.69.4.126)
Hey everybody, sorry I don't know your names I'm new...anyway I'm from Australia...


^

shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:44:59 2000 152.163.201.78)
Sex and gender are two different things--Angel is....I'm sorry, going to bed now!


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Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:44:49 2000 208.221.155.1)
JSF: He did not follow Magneto..He was his second in command, thank you.(kidding)
Yep, I used to love that character. But the loser writers of the X-men comics wasted him..Ho-hum.


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:44:33 2000 152.163.213.49)
Shelley


^

Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:44:00 2000 216.34.244.103)
JSF: Nice analysis re the individual coping with extraordinary circumstances. Pared it down to the basics.


Parting book quote:

'Your borrower of books - those mutilators of collections, spoilers of symmetry of shelves, and creators of odd volumes.' ~Charles Lamb, "The Two Races of Man" Essays of Elia (1823)


^

lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:42:38 2000 209.171.24.42)
Shelley Addendum: Part of what I was just driving at, stated simply, is that there has been a shift...from "Buffy the Vampire slayer" tee hee...isn't that ironic......To "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER"...yah...Buffy Kicks butt!


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:42:07 2000 209.86.149.10)
Shelley Angel is not emotionally sexless. He is very male, but runs the danger of becoming evil if he does have sex, although they are making that not so much a bright line test I think. He is not a eunuch, as he said a few times for emphasis last ep. I know Darla would love to jump his bones, and Buffy did as soon as he gave the ok. Angel is as male as he can be. But they keep trying to take his black coat and convertible away. The whole show is decronstructing this guys psyche.


^

shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:40:53 2000 152.163.201.78)
JSF
If Buffy's gender is irrelovant than it is no longer a feminist show--but I think it's relevant

lost boy:
yes, I agree, the humour is from other sources, which is cool-but now I am really, going to bed, thank you all for being patient with me this eveing


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shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:36:28 2000 152.163.201.78)
Buffy's gender is irrelovant?


^

lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:36:08 2000 209.171.24.42)
Shelley Ok, now you're just dancing around it. :-P
But, while we're on the topic, Don't you feel that the humour of the premise has long since faded. Almost all the humour at this point is derived from other sources, and not from the show's initial commentary. No?


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:32:50 2000 152.163.213.49)
Shelley
Still, why would someone be feminist to even enjoy the show. To many, the fact the protagonist is female is irrelevant. I for one only see a person coping with a situation that goes beyond the norm. Whether it is The Terminator blowing things up with a big gun or Ripley taking on a host of hostile aliens, it is the struggle of the individual that draws us in. How that person copes with extra-ordinary circumstances is the underlying theme.

Exodus
Is your name out of the bible or the Acolyte that followed Magneto?


^

shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:31:58 2000 152.163.201.78)
Angel is emotionally "sexless" untill he becomes human again


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:27:35 2000 209.86.149.10)
I kinna like the idea I had about Angel being a feminist show. I mean the critics are looking at Buffy as post-feminist, then we get Angel in the same Joss-verse. Since the world has two sexes, at some point the issue is going to be how to men react to the post-feminist world? I know that whole issue WAS the movie "fight club," but that basically ended in suicide. Angel is trying to get through it.


^

shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:26:43 2000 152.163.201.78)
lostboy
I've recently taken a logic class--it was psuedo-formulaic--Buffy would offend someone who was not somewhat feminist. They would not understand the irony and would focus on her sexual habits--


^

lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:21:12 2000 209.171.24.42)
Shelley Was the post regarding the Irony of Buffy in response to me? If so, I still don't see how that ties in with your first comment about witty dialogue and communication. I agree with what you said for the most part in the irony post, but I'm a little hesitant with the "it's feminist to think BTVS is funny." I'm really not sure what you are saying with that specific statement.


^

shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:17:33 2000 152.163.201.78)
Exodus:
You already are a feminist, on some level if you watch the show...I think that everyone is just uncomfortable with the word--and that I am being stubborn and cranky and am therfore going to bed!
Thank you!


^

Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:14:28 2000 209.148.229.215)
Paul
Can't agree with you there. To say that she's a tramp implies she has empty, emotionless sex with multiple partners, which she doesn't. She loves Riley (or she keeps telling herself that *g*) and isn't sleeping around on him.

(Unless you count that non-existent time period when Angel became human, in which case, overwhelming circumstances, she's human like everyone else)

And hey, college... freedom and experimentation is what it's widely known for.


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Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:13:13 2000 208.221.155.1)
You know, I'm a guy...but I want to increase my intelligence so I guess I'll become a feminist..(note the sarcasm)


^

Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:12:48 2000 209.86.149.10)
Paul Walters Buffy is acting as a counter-weight to 7th Heaven. Since there is no "action" on that show, Buffy has to struggle and make the 'action" up. More seriously, Buffy is mature for her age, having saved the world a few times, she seems to be comfy with it, and there are very few boring sex scenes that interrupt the show. Except that one show with the vines on the door, and that was just a sucky show.


^

Brad Grenz says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:10:18 2000 24.4.254.139)
Paul Walters-- Right, 'cause we all know real college girls never have sex. She's only been with three guys, two of them only once. The problem's yours, not the show's.

Akodo-- Related to Hitomi? I've been meaning to see it. I always manage to miss it when it airs on cable though. And I'm too lazy and poor to rent things.

Brad Grenz
the widgets


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lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:09:38 2000 209.171.24.42)
Paul Walters ?! I don't even know where to start.


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shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:08:48 2000 152.163.201.78)
Paul:
So do you write sci-fi?


^

JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:07:39 2000 152.163.213.49)
Brad Grenz
I can kick the Raptor's butt. Demon Knight is a cool movie. Its about "The Key", the last one, the one that would give the demons the power to bring back the darkness and banish the light. A Chosen One is the guardian of that key. Forever running and avoiding the creature sent to retrieve it, the Demon Knight. *eg*


^

Binkette says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:05:59 2000 198.142.200.250)
Whim, maybe the loss of Riley will make Buffy get over herself a bit? I know that sounds harsh, and I personally don't want Riley to die, but it may make her see what it's like on the other side.


^

Binkette says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:05:54 2000 198.142.200.250)
Whim, maybe the loss of Riley will make Buffy get over herself a bit? I know that sounds harsh, and I personally don't want Riley to die, but it may make her see what it's like on the other side.


^

Paul Walters says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:04:04 2000 216.67.34.166)
Does anyone else have a problem with how Joss protrays Buffy and her relationships? I am almost offended on how much "ACTION" a 19-20 year girl gets. I am not sure where the writers want to go with this but it seems to me that Buffy spreads the legs alot and I'm not sure i'm too comfortable with how they are portraying her. I've read that the medical guy or Spike could turn into a new peice of tail and though I'm far from a prude or conservative, I'm having a hard time seeing Buffy anything less than a Tramp on the relationship front. Flame me if you think I'm wrong but I'm not liking how they are portraying Buffy.


^

Akodo Terwilliger says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:03:58 2000 216.78.186.67)
Brad Grenz: You should if you get the chance. It's a lot better than I was expecting. I account most of that to Billy Zane pretty much being da man.


^

Binkette says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:03:37 2000 198.142.200.250)
Shelley, yeah, I agree with what you said. That's so true:)


^

Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:02:35 2000 209.86.149.10)
Darklady I think your point about Buffy accepting herself finally this season is on the mark. Riley is struggling with that. He doesnt have super powers like Angel, or even those powers that he had himself not so long ago. Uhoh. Is Riley actually interesting now? Maybe so. Mr. Iowa hangs out in vampire bars. This guy is in love. Buffy thinks he is all she needs, but he is worrying, am I? He really cares about Buffy. Now that Im liking Riley, and Im seeing him as more than just an Angel replacement, Joss is going to kill him. No chance for pain will go unexplored. Come on Joss, why didnt you kill him when I hated him!


^

Shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 01:00:54 2000 152.163.201.78)
We watch Buffy and think its funny because it is ironic--compared to what we traditionally see in the media. Buffy's power is ironic compared to the stereotype of a young blond Californian woman. The irony creates a feminist agenda because the sterotype exists. It is feminist to think that BVS is funny. If we were'nt interested in the irony of Buffy's power the show would not be feminist.


^

lost boy says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:58:55 2000 209.171.24.42)
Shelly Witty dialogue and Communication are indications of Feminist consciousness? Can you elaborate on that?


^

Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:58:47 2000 209.148.229.215)
Wow can I not type tonight? :D

darklady
Lol...I did mention Wes...he's on the list there for locking Wes under the stairs.


^

Brad Grenz says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:55:50 2000 24.4.254.139)
JSF-- You could kick an F-22's ass, right? Demon Knight? I have not seen it. It's written by the guys who created the show Brimstone though. And Brimstone and Angel have some very similar qualities. Both Protagonists have been to hell and are looking for redemption. Both have Ex's who they really ought to stay away from. Both have this love/hate thing with blonde female detectives... Both're good.

Brad Grenz
the widgets


^

Paul Walters says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:53:59 2000 216.67.34.166)
BLAME FLORIDA!!!!!!!


^

Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:52:03 2000 216.34.244.105)
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MORELLA, DEAR!!!!


Ahem. Hee

Lots of Hogs and Quiches, dear lady.


^

DL says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:51:43 2000 63.183.8.46)
PS

Exodus well, I always could tell when it's not Sarah, but that might just be me! Yes, Jeff Pruitt, the stunt coordinator for seasons 2-4 left the show last spring, followed shortly by his fiance Sophia Crawford, the main Buffy stunt double. There was a big brou-ha-ha between some of the people at the show and they dragged the Bronzers into it (a despicable action all around if you ask me. This is a fan message board, not the place for employees to air personal grievances IMNSHO). Anyway, the upshot is there's a new stunt coordinator, and there are now three women handling the stunts for Buffy. I'm personally liking the more acrobatic stuff this season.

DL
gone


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JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:48:13 2000 152.163.213.49)
Shelley
What aspect? Buffy has incredible powers and chooses to use it responsibly. Such powers are always the individuals choice. No matter if the person is a woman, man, dog, chimpanzie, wolverine or a talking hedgehog, it is always that individual's choice to serve the greater good or be selfish.


^

Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:47:31 2000 209.86.149.10)
Shelley You could argue that there is more of feminist influence on Angel. Or maybe post-feminist. Every show has the big guy with the shirt off. And he takes the trappings of power, the brooding look, the dark clothes, the powerfull car, and then the show makes fun of them. The last ep was great with the mafia swami saying (paraphrase) "so you are a vampire living in a city known for its sun, but you drive a convertible? How much do you hate youself?" I could say that Angel is really the show that is on the cutting edge. Buffy is post-feminist. The girl has the power, she is comfy with the power, maybe has other problems. But here is the guy show, Angel. He is like 250 years old, not mister today. But its the same post-feminist Jossian world, so how does HE deal with it? If you really stretch the metaphors, he is the one that has the most changing and adJusting to do...he has to go from the dark vampire to human. All Im saying is if your going to look at Buffy in a feminist light, and in this show the same guy is rewriting all the scripts, well couldnt Angel be a feminist show as well? The guy finding his place in the new world. (paraphrase from last ep: Wesley, are you wearing my coat? Where is my coat!!).


^

DarkLady says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:47:10 2000 63.183.8.46)
OK now I'll be topicky...

shelley, Lil Pia I'm hesitant to use the word "agenda" to describe Joss' vision. I think he's trying to tell a story and not change the world. He's said his original idea for Buffy was instead of the typical horror movie where the blonde bimbo twists her ankle and then just lies there waiting for the creature to devour her, the blonde gets up and kicks some demon @$$. I think the way that his idea flies in the face of the vast majority of film and tv conventions where the girl is the accessory/victim/object or villain has snowballed as the show goes on. Plus there's the facet of Buffy wanting to just just a normal girl, *not* wanting to be the exception to all the stereotypes. Only in this season is she starting to not fight the fact that she is not a normal girl (hi NANG!) and doesn't fit the usual images of women most people have. I think Riley expresses that a lot. In other words, I don't think Joss set out to make a show that would "subvert the patriarchy." I think he wants to tell a good story. And that story happens to defy a lot of the conventions we've come to expect and does so in a mostly positive way.

As far as the "Disney Parent" syndrome, there's a noticable lack of responsible parents in this show. I don't believe any of the characters have a good relationship with both parents, or even have good parents (personally, I think Joyce is up for worst mother of the year award for the first two seasons). But I also think, as was pointed out in this week's episode, one of the major themes of the show is that many times the closest support we find in our lives comes from the people we gather around us. Some families are really tight and really supportive. But for a lot of people, especially young people, you create a family of friends around you as you go along. And you need each other, just like a real family, even when you're fighting (Yoko Factor, Primevil). "Angel" has really gotten into this, with our hero building a family around him as he struggles to become human and not drift off into darkness again. Just like Buffy's friends are what brought her back from the other side, Angel's family is what might keep him from going over again.

SPOILISH FOR NEXT WEEK'S EPS.
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There's an element of this family stuff on the demon side too. I get the sense that Darla and Angel were almost the parents to a group of vamps and we'll see some of that evolution in next week's crossover.
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SPOILISH FOR NEXT WEEK'S EPS.

Lil Pia you forgot Wesley's father who evidently tried to correct his faults by locking him in a closet. There's definite abuse there.

Antipodean I'm all topicky. Be proud. *smootch*

Later LOSERs.
DL
"what you don't have you don't need it now
what you don't know you can feel it somehow..."


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Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:46:37 2000 216.34.244.103)
Quiz responses. (I'd direct this to someone only I don't know whose quiz it is...)

1) If you could pick any BtVS/Angel character to be your guardian angel, who would it be and why?
Giles. He has the maturity, the experience and the knowledge being a Watcher has brought him. I think his guidance would be pretty much as how he's 'handled' Buffy... conferring a sense of independence and also ties of affection. Granted, it's been a bit of a battle, but I like how it's developing.

2) Your lawyer? Giles

3) Your masseuse? Riley

4) Your next door neighbor? Oz

5) Your babysitter? Willow and/or Tara. Either would be good.

6) Your ping pong partner? Xander

7) Your janitor? Principal Snyder


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:42:05 2000 209.148.229.215)
Exodus
That was a debacle last summer that I think a lot of Bronzers would like to not get into. But stunt coordinator Jeff Pruit and Sophia Crawford are an item (can't remember if they're married or planning to). Friction was high so the two left the show to start their own produciotn company.
Sophia was in England recently working on a major film. She is temendously talented and I can't wait to see her next work.


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Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:38:04 2000 216.34.244.9)
ok. raises hand high in air. Call me dunce, imbecile, grey cell challenged.

Darn tag!


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Shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:37:46 2000 152.163.201.78)
Whim:
Yes, Buffy was a cheerleader, but she became aware of her power as she reached a certain age(puberty.) She was socialized just like any other girl. The feminist aspect of the show is in how she chooses to use her power --opposed to how others use thiers


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Olivia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:37:19 2000 216.34.244.106)
Salutations, Bronzers.

Zedsdead: Thankee very kindly, sir! The wee cold is wee so nothing terrible. Hope you are feeling muchly better also.

Glad you found the Philip Pullman links interesting… I really think I should be getting some type of royalty for posting so much about it. Actually, the only person I knew on the linear who had read his other 2 books out of this trilogy was Vilia, which is why I posted all this info. You didn’t say if your mum has read the other two books or if she’s starting with The Amber Spyglass. I know that sounds stupid of me to say, but it’s possible that someone might read it without having seen the other two. Not likely, given the blurb must make mention it is the conclusion, I know. In any case, I’m just crazily involved in this clever, clever series. And major kudos to you for giving your mum so many hours of pleasure with your trips to the library to gather books for her. I admire you keenly. And not just for your poetry, either! Lol.

Rachie: No, no, it’s much easier for me to reach into a bag with the hand closest to it than reaching across… I’m not sure I understand your confusion over this, unless it’s the manner of your reaching… do you reach across with your arm behind you or in front of you? Sounds like a silly question to put to you, you say? Well, we’ve already agreed I’m not too swift in the upper works, so bear with me a moment, if you please. *g*

Perhaps, it is also what type of bag you are carrying… I rarely carry women’s handbags, purses or shoulder bags. If that is what you are referring to, then I can see why you’re puzzled about my method. I concur that using the opposite hand to reach for a handbag, say, would be much easier… in general. *g* In my case, handbag or backpack (which is what I use), I always use my left hand to reach and mess around with the contents of the bag on my left shoulder. Lol. As Suekib would say, this is all getting rather involved, in’t it? :0)

And bravo on your voting post to Idle Hands.


For some of the ‘crowd’ who might be interested in the graphology books I’ve been perusing, I’ve listed below the ones I found the most interesting thus far (I have a few more books to go through). The asterisks indicate those I felt were particularly good. The others are also good, in more of an interest sort of way. They are all pretty straightforward reading.

* Branston, Barry, The Elements of Graphology, Element Books Ltd., 1995. ISBN: 1-85230-646-7.

* McNichol, Andrea, & Nelson, Jeffrey A., Handwriting Analysis: Putting It to Work for You, Contemporary Books, Inc., 1991. ISBN: 0-8092-4023-8.

Barrett, David V., Graphology, Doring Kindersley, 1995. ISBN: 0-7894-0308-0.

Dennis, Peter, Handwriting Analysis: An Adventure in Self-Discovery, 2nd ed., CAPCO International, 1999. ISBN: 0-9698926-3-2.

Dines, Jess E., Handwriting Analysis, Pantex International Ltd., 1990. ISBN: 0-9627666-0-7.

SOs to: ABPositive, Algerina, Anais, andyourlittledogtoo, Antipodean, Arana, Balf, Bee, Boo, BuBBle, Catriona, CharlieX, cymru, Deborah, DeMoriel, devilish angel, {dru}, ducky, Elly, Extra Flamey, fenric, fire&ice;, Jenny68, Juggernaut, KAT, Kiba Rika, Lady of the Lake, Lord Mysty Mage, The Librarian, marrow, Malista, Menkhare, Meteor, Minerva, Morella, Narrator, The Nemesis, newfan & Kiera, PDR, RafterBat, redhead, Reyna, RoB, Shan, Suekib, TaraAnyaKate4eva, wicca, wolfguard, X-Lander, Zedsdead, Zeus….


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Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:36:05 2000 208.221.155.1)
Lil Pia/the red hood: I have a question about this stunt doubles thing..I know that the stunt doubles from last season are gone...Why? I heard on this board a long time ago about the stunt co-ordinator getting fired and apparently there was some kind of friction going on. Why then did the stunt double leave or get fired? And as for the new stunt people..I think they need to beg the old people to come back. The new girl who does Buffy's stunts is a really good fighter (i like the acrobatic wrestling moves), but I can "always" tell when it is no longer Sarah. Also, the guy who did Spike in the scene from this week was Horribly obvious.


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Moloch2002 says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:30:28 2000 64.12.104.31)
Nite Nite Bronzers...

*POOF*


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:29:05 2000 209.148.229.215)
shelley
You're right there about exploitation... I was only concerned that your statement about "subverting patriarchy" was an attempt by Joss to undermine society or something. *g*

As for comics, yeah that can be true for many books but not all...ahem...since I am chick hear me roar, and yeah, I draw comics for a living. :)


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:27:18 2000 209.86.149.10)
Shelley I never really think of Buffy as a feminist show. Buffy herself is very traditional. She was even a cheerleader. Joss minored in women's studies in college, and I'm sure he knows all about the patriarchy, but is he trying to undermine anything? I think he is mostly trying to entertain. Buffy seems so absorbed with her own life that any feminist byproduct of it is unintentional. She is the uber power in her circle of friends, and is confident of her importance in the world. Alot of feminism seems to be about an analysis of power. Well, Buffy has that from day 1, and the only patriarchal figure in the show is Giles, but he has earned her trust. Maybe in the beginning he was a male power figure, but Buffy returned to him on her own terms.


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:26:01 2000 209.148.229.215)
The Red Hood
yeah there are Abusive mothers too but recently, the focus has been on fathers:
Buffy and Willow's: Absent
Xander, Tara's and Wesley's: Abusive.
Bethany's: sexually abusive.
Cordy's: a crook
Angel and Giles': traditional and insensitive.
Faith's: absent (with an abusive mother)
Virginia Bryce: murderous

a bit of a pattern


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shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:25:07 2000 152.163.201.78)
Lil Pia
Aside from some jiggly action onscreen--I do believe that there is a feminist agenda that the show supports. Whitty dialouge, communication, female leadership, the stress between Buffy and Riley, are all indications of a feminist conciousness. Have you wathced the sci-fi channel lately?--Most sci-fi shows exploit women sexually, giving them the Dorian Gray syndrome, where you can either be smart or beautiful, not both. My impression of those shows and most comic books is that they are created by men who are all alone with a stack of playboys most weekends. Joss, and whomever else involved, are way more evolved, and interesting.


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EviLS I T says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:22:51 2000 152.163.207.192)
oh and the last post was to Moloch2002 its late and i should goto sleep


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EviLS I T says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:22:06 2000 152.163.207.192)
I goto Loyola Marymount University now but i went to Beverly


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JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:21:59 2000 152.163.213.49)
Brad Grenz
Anything for Eliza. Im watching Demon Knight right now on cable. There is a charactrer named Cordelia that for some reason reminds me of a weaken version of Faith. Does that make sense?


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the red hood says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:19:49 2000 150.135.218.111)
Last comments, and I am closing my browser window. I swear.

Lil Pia Eh? She's no longer with the show? Where have I been??? I'm going to have to analyze the credits...or something...

Lil Pia, shelley I can't see Joss having a feminist agenda just because there have been a lot of bad/abusive fathers on the show. That kind of reasoning doesn't make any sense (and it would have gotten an F in my discrete math class on proofs). Not to mention, Willow's mother hasn't been the most supportive...and I'm almost positive that Faith had an abusive mother.

"My dead mother hits harder than you!" ~Faith, "Faith, Hope, and Trick"
(my quote may be a little off...but I know she said it)

~the red hood
buh-bye!


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:16:34 2000 209.148.229.215)
relishing in LOSERs and the lighter limits on posting... sorry :)

The red Hood
Yeah Spohia was a wonderful stunt double who did a lot of work in Hong Kong action films, but is no longer with the show. I haven't heard who the three new doubles are, but I think one may be the one they used for Faith last season, her frame looks similar.


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Brad Grenz says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:15:28 2000 24.4.254.139)
JSF-- Two nights in a row!

Brad Grenz


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Josh says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:15:15 2000 24.25.241.82)
Hey Joss,
You know how much more interesting you could make the show if you were to put it on like HBO or something like that. You could show Willow and Terra doing alot more than hugging haha :). But hey your doing a great job keep up the good work.


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NuPhalanx says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:14:26 2000 199.244.232.43)
DarkLady - I'm liking Gilmore Girls muchly! It strikes me as a more family-centered version of Northern Exposure in some ways. Mom and daughter make quite a team, eh? I'm not surprised at the level of the writing; Joss doesn't have a monopoly on talent or talented writers. I wonder why Dan Quayle isn't bitching about the show portraying a family that isn't "traditional"? *BWESEG* *BAP* back at ya for not answering my email! ;) < /joke > Tell me all about the new job, okay?

Pippin - hello, and thanks for letting me know about Stockwell Day. Does Canada have debates in the US style? Do the candidates have to speak French?

NuPh
You're the whack


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:11:34 2000 209.148.229.215)
shelley
so by subversion of patriarchy are you saying that Joss has a feminist agenda?

I see it more as the writers being a part of a generation that has seen some of the highest divorce rates in history while at the same time becomming more introspective as to the nature of family dysfunction and how centuries of abuse cycles can be changed.

The overriding message is "You are your own person, you are not the sum of your forebears."
Not that the writing direction is a bad thing, I'm just noticing a lot of repetition.


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little wiggins arriving in style says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:10:39 2000 203.20.149.5)
1) If you could pick any BtVS/Angel character to be your guardian angel, who would it be and why?

Doyle cause his accent makes me all tingly


2) Your lawyer?
willow
3) Your masseuse?
Angel


4) Your next door neighbor?
graham cause he's a yummy hunk of man meat and i think he'd be the handy neighbour type

5) Your babysitter?
Xander [did you see him handle the kids in halloween? [pre spell]


6) Your ping pong partner?
wesley
7) Your janitor?
luke.

I'd also like to see some spike, wesley bonding.


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Moloch2002 says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:10:27 2000 64.12.104.31)
EviLs: What school do you go to?


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the red hood says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:10:14 2000 150.135.218.111)
Whoo-hoo! Unintentional fifth! *g*

Lil Pia That's what I heard too. And an amazing woman named Sophia Crawford does Buffy's stunts...

~the red hood
...really, I'm gone now...


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:09:53 2000 209.86.149.10)
Exodus Joss is the show, so only he is not expendable, but they did spend alot of time designing that new logo. Although if they fired SMG they could get a new girl with a "B" initial, like 'Brandy the Vampire Slayer", and then all the effort is not wasted.

As far as Charmed, I like the show. Its very bubblegum, nice too chew when nothing better to do, but it aint a meal. Of course, as far as the advertisers are concerned, if you are watching Charmed and dont like it so much or Buffy and like it alot, they dont care. Spelling made millions at really crappy shows that somehow just go down easy. I think people will be watching Btvs 30 years from now tho, but not so likley Charmed.


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EviLS I T says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:06:46 2000 64.12.104.178)
so Moloch2002 u goto Uni? anyway u can sneak me in and let me see her speak lol...u r lucky we didn't get anyone cool to speak at our school....we had a bunck of celebrity graduates but noone buffy related...


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:04:51 2000 209.148.229.215)
Exodus
From what I've read and heard, either of which has to be only partially believed as the saying goes... Charisma Carpenter was originally considered for the part. But then Gellar was brought in. Her emmy from the soap and the added hype of having a brown belt in tae kwan do (no I don't believe she does her own stunts either) changed everyone's mind. Joss has said in interviews that they were very lucky to find Gellar. I think she does just fine.


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shelley says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:04:18 2000 152.163.201.78)
The abusive/absent father theme goes along with the shows (and movies) underlying message to subvert the patriarchy. The opposite of Buffy is a caring father archetypically.


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the red hood says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:04:02 2000 150.135.218.111)
ihybernate Yes a paper...much fun...

Exodus Buffy, Faith, Cordy, and Anya? Sure, no problem! *g*

All, right, I must control my post urges and envelop myself in the land of Paperdom. Good night/day/evening/morning/etc. to everyone!

~the red hood
I'm gone...no really, I am...


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Whim says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:01:37 2000 209.86.149.10)
IreneAdler This we dont have a president thing bugs me. It shouldnt come down to how someone designed a ballot in one county in Florida. Its all way to bizarre for me. Its not going to matter that much who wins (tho alot of people would argue with that), but it makes me nervous anyway. The way its going Bush could lose on the recount and then win on the overseas write-in votes, and then it gets tied up in some municipal court, there is a revote in one county and Gore wins. I think W. and Al should meet at high noon . . . and flip a coin.


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Lil Pia says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:00:53 2000 209.148.229.215)
2nd!?


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Exodus says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:00:47 2000 208.221.155.1)
Lil Pia: Who was first choice for Buffy? I have never heard this. Also, we can be pretty sure which actress could drink more...
On the subject of "Charmed"..I have watched the show a few times, and I always come back to the same question.."Do they HAVE bras in San Francisco?"
the red hood: Ha! BTW, make that mud wrestling with Buffy, Faith, Cordy, and Anya and I'm there!!


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JSF says:
(Fri Nov 10 00:00:32 2000 152.163.213.49)
Eliza!



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