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Pioneer
Posts: 5
From: UK
  | | Posted: Sunday, September 17, 2000 - 23:52 | |   (IP Logged) |
A thread has opened on Steve Gibsons news server ( news.grc.com ) about digiguide and it's inclusion of Timesink. I was *very* upset that the new DG did not *spell*out* that Timesink would be installed. If you're happy with spywear, then that is your choice, your machine and *your* down-time when IE keeps keeps crashing due to browser intergration. During the install it was *not* clear that Timesink was to be placed onto my machine. And the cookies from the new ad software ... that took the biscuit. Gypsymedia have lost a great deal of the trust that they had built up with it's userbase. DG is now off my machine, and has been bunged on a standalone, and ad-free (I'm not telling you how) laptop next to the tv. I suggest that you contact Steve Gibson and ask him to do an audit of the data that is sent to/from Digiguide - big players such as Real / Netscape have got it so wrong in the past, they've been left with considerable egg on their face. Sorry chaps - I think you've done a bit of a Tony with the inclusion of Timesink. Please don't bother deleting / locking this post. Thank you, Pioneer. | Russ Freeman
(Staff)Posts: 4887
From: Devon, UK
 | | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 00:59 | |  (IP Logged) |
I'm sorry you feel that way but Conducent software was only installed onto your computer *after* you agreed to it. Conducent goes nowhere near your browser, independent analysis of our installation will/has proven this. Cookies? You are mistaken. These forums use cookies. Conducent does not use cookies, and DigiGuide doesn't use cookies. Steve Gibson audit our software? I wonder how much he charges for that! I'm sure that if he feels strongly enough about it he will do an 'audit' himself without us asking. | Pioneer
Posts: 5
From: UK
| | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 21:02 | | (IP Logged) |
Hi Russ,
I'm sorry you feel that way but Conducent software was only installed onto your computer *after* you agreed to it.
I read the EULA - at no point does it mention Conducent. It mentions ad software. The previous version of DG had ad software. Your seasoned users would assume that the ad-engine used is the same ad-engine from the old DG. The EULA needs to mention Conducent. Unless you're afraid to tell the user what they are agreeing to? If the user is not aware of the facts, how can they make a pre-install, informed decision? I class the current DG EULA as sneaky. Other EULA's specifically say what Ad-Engine is installed. Try talking to the lads over at Veritape. They also have a stonking ad-sponsored product. I'm sure if you ask them nicely they'll give you some pointers for clear EULA's. My version of Veritape is paid for.
Conducent goes nowhere near your browser, independent analysis of our installation will/has proven this.
Sorry, wrong. Is that not a IE5 window asking me if I want to accept a cookie? I think it is. I doubt if the integration stops there.
Cookies? You are mistaken. These forums use cookies. Conducent does not use cookies, and DigiGuide doesn't use cookies.
The adds, when displayed on DG, have cookies. Therefore DG has cookies.
Steve Gibson audit our software? I wonder how much he charges for that!
It'd only take 5 mins for you to send an email to Steve Gibson. Steve is a good guy. Over in uk.people.consumers there's a monster thread running about the new DG. Not exactly happy reading, and a fair bit of Russ bashing going on... I know you're being given a hard time Russ. If it wasn't for the fact that we liked you, and your product, your company, we'd not be here suggesting how things can be fixed. Would I *buy* an Ad-free (spywear free) version of DG? Yes I would. But not at 20 quid a year. 20 quid for *2* years and I'm there. No problem. Regards, Pioneer Edited by - Pioneer on Monday, September 18, 2000 - 21:05:53 | ColinTurner
Posts: 76
From: UK
| | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 21:35 | | (IP Logged) |
Russ, These are SOME of the cookies the the TS engine attempted to place on my system. One appears to load every time the ad changes. NONE are from DG(directly) Nearly ALL are from Conducent, some strange ACID entries I haven't looked up yet. I agree with a lot of what Pioneer has said in his last post(except for price, I'm happy about that - wait till pay day for my order) - OR IF YOU CAN PRODUCE A TIME LIMITED VERSION WITHOUT THE AD SOFTWARE! I am also happy to report that the suggestion WRT Disk Thrashing from Aaron Tibbet is VERY effective . I too ran uninstallads then Adsetup (having turned off my ad blocking software - which wasn't the cause, as I had mainly enabled the conducent connections) - no problem since - ta v much.
18-09-2000 19:36:40.108 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://m.doubleclick.net/viewad/429537-free_468_1.gif 18-09-2000 19:36:39.316 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/conducent.adventure/cat17;cat=17;lan=01;typ=01;ref=01;pos=01;kw=;sz=468x60;ord=0938484? 18-09-2000 19:35:43.573 Blocked Cookie: 97920624=!ee060009693016980001!00000000-0000122f-00003e56-39c65ec2-00000000-*195.44.203.244*; ACID=ee060009693016980001! sent for http://servedby.advertising.com/site=15958/bnum=97920 18-09-2000 19:35:39.217 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0280b-969301942x11045.14975 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_women_25_to_34/36649;uniq=800000? 18-09-2000 19:34:39.112 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0140b-969301956x2b0ad.40717 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_men_18_to_24/36643;uniq=200000? 18-09-2000 19:33:39.245 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0300b-969301918x2a0a9.18185 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_men_55_and_over/36647;uniq=600000? 18-09-2000 19:32:41.740 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c02a0b-969301913x29ca8.33694 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_men_45_to_54/36646;uniq=500000? 18-09-2000 19:31:01.455 Blocked Cookie: 97920624=!ee130009693012950007!00000000-00001b30-00003e56-39c65d2f-00000000-*195.44.203.244*; ACID=ee130009693012950007! sent for http://servedby.advertising.com/site=15958/bnum=97920 18-09-2000 19:30:55.558 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c01b0b-969301961x6c1c.3432 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_women_35_to_44/36650;uniq=900000? 18-09-2000 19:29:55.493 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0280b-969301598x17c60.10246 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_men_25_to_34/36644;uniq=300000? 18-09-2000 19:28:55.456 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0170b-969301617x298a7.45340 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_men_18_to_24/36643;uniq=200000? 18-09-2000 19:27:57.043 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://m.doubleclick.net/viewad/429537-free_468_2.gif 18-09-2000 19:27:56.199 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/conducent.adventure/cat17;cat=17;lan=01;typ=01;ref=01;pos=01;kw=;sz=468x60;ord=0938484? 18-09-2000 19:26:55.362 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c02f0b-969301198x1c071.44375 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_ros/36583;uniq=000001? 18-09-2000 19:24:57.666 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://m.doubleclick.net/viewad/429537-fm_468x60_everythingab.gif 18-09-2000 19:24:56.238 Blocked Cookie: id=A sent for http://ad.doubleclick.net/ad/conducent.adventure/cat17;cat=17;lan=01;typ=01;ref=01;pos=01;kw=;sz=468x60;ord=1000001? 18-09-2000 19:24:38.975 Blocked Cookie: 97920624=!ee010009598914790013!00000000-00001316-00003e56-39a31a62-00000000-*195.44.202.135* sent for http://servedby.advertising.com/site=15958/bnum=97920624/bins=1/rich=0/2000.09.18 18-09-2000 19:24:06.298 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c02a0b-968895491x14452.27717 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_ros/36583;uniq=000001?
| Fred
Posts: 13
From: UK
| | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 23:23 | | (IP Logged) |
Russ, Why does the C:\Program Files\TimeSink\AdGateway\Profiles\DigiGuide Folder have my name in it ? It isn't the same name I used when I installed Digiguide & filled in the questionnaire. How did your software find out my name ? What information do the files in that folder contain Russ ? Best wishes Fred | John@home
Posts: 622
From: UK
 | | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 23:43 | | (IP Logged) |
Is it me?!! Or has anyone else noticed that this thread is not wrapping at the end of the lines? Is this a bug? Anyone up at DigiGuide?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John@home
| Andrew
(Team DigiGuide)Posts: 3096
From: Rickmansworth, UK
| | Posted: Monday, September 18, 2000 - 23:48 | | (IP Logged) |
Where?? I think it must be you!  | ColinTurner
Posts: 76
From: UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 00:34 | | (IP Logged) |
Fred - I think it uses the Computer Name - so if yours if FRED that's what it gets (if you press WIN-Pause - the name under Registered TO: on the General Tab) Prince - I have the same problem (mind you I think it's caused be the long words with no spaces in my posting re Cookies - I guess It cant split the lines, so extends) - I'll have a look at the code Dan has provided so thoughtfully Andrew - what resolution are you running at? I'm At 1027x768 BTW what is it with 'Senior' status - we all start helping out - watch it CSO, I'm on your tail  | Andrew
(Team DigiGuide)Posts: 3096
From: Rickmansworth, UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 00:40 | | (IP Logged) |
I'm using 1024x768. Senior status is when you've posted >50 posts. | Russ Freeman
(Staff)Posts: 4887
From: Devon, UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 00:56 | | (IP Logged) |
Thanks for your suggestions. Thanks to the feedback we have recieved we will clearly state that DigiGuide uses Conducent. Feedback is always helped us shape DG, now as it did in the beta and as it has from the very begining. I see the logic, if DigiGuide uses Conducent and Conducent software uses an IE control and the IE control uses cookies then therefore DigiGuide must cookies. DigiGuide has always used your browser to display web pages that our internal HTML control can't handle, such as going to the DigiGuide web site (due to the use of GIF DG HTML control won't cope). I will reword it: DigiGuide uses a web browser to display HTML pages. In using a web browser cookies may be downloaded to your machine unless you switch them off. Is that sufficient? "going near the browser" by way of using it is hardly the same as "browser intergration". I read the latter as messing with the browser, with the possible implication of something insidious. Creating and using an IE control maybe many things but integration into the browser it is not. Integration of the browser is a more accurate description e.g infecting DigiGuide with the IE virus<bg>. Usenet: Most(all?) concerns have been addresed over and over and the remaining discussion just looks like an argument! I have better things to do with my time than spend days having an argument in usenet where I am the only one that isn't anonymous. My name: I would imagine Conducent use it to identify you by way of the Windows API function GetUserName(). It would be the simplest and easiest way to work with a single computer and multiple logins. The file sin that Folder contain information pertaining to the use of the Conducent advertising engine. The data structure is almost certainly proprietary. Colin: My computer name is fb but my folder is russ, my login is russ. Wrapping: It's you, mine looks fine. | Denise
Posts: 40
From: UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 01:09 | | (IP Logged) |
Colin, you must be mistaken. We've had assurance after assurance that cookies are not used. Even "Reliable" Russ has told us so in this very thread. Shurely shome mishtake. </sarc> -- "Conducent doesn't use cookies" - Russ Freeman. Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c01b0b-969301961x6c1c.3432 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_women_35_to_44 Blocked Cookie: 247CID=sid-a8c0280b-969301942x11045.14975 sent for http://connect.247media.ads.link4ads.com/serv/1/conducent/conducent/conducent_women_25_to_34 Nice "personally targetted" ads there Colin! | Russ Freeman
(Staff)Posts: 4887
From: Devon, UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 01:24 | | (IP Logged) |
Jeez Denise why not read the post above. If I write an application that uses a web browser control (IE, NGLayout, etc.) to navigate to a web page then by the definitions given *if* that web page should *happen* to use cookies then my application then uses cookies. Discussion: "DG uses cookies", "no it doesn't", "yes it does like so", "I see your point, we should amend our docs like this, okay?". See above discussion for the long version. | Denise
Posts: 40
From: UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 02:06 | | (IP Logged) |
Jeez Russ, why not look at the times posted and figure out why I didn't read *your* post! As to your yes/no/yes/ok, it just proves that now you've introduced a third party *into* your house, you don't fully know what's happening to the software *you're* introducing to customer's computers. I'm still impressed by the 25-44 year-old women's ads that are being personally targeted at Colin. What with the 25-44 year-old men's adverts as well, one wonders how Colin filled out his personal details!! (Only kidding Colin) | Dan Petitt
(Staff)Posts: 2027
From: Budleigh Salterton, UK
 | | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 12:07 | | (IP Logged) |
I'm still impressed by the 25-44 year-old women's ads that are being personally targeted at Colin. What with the 25-44 year-old men's adverts as well, one wonders how Colin filled out his personal details!!
I think DigiGuide currently is getting a lot of run-of-site ads as we havent been with Conducent long enough to get more targetted ads. As Russ has said in another thread, we are working more closely with Conducent and our advertising partner (HypnosisMedia) to get more specific ads geared towards our users and specifically the UK! 'Cos cheap US gasoline are not really applicable are they? As for the cookies mentioned, none of them are from digiguide.com or conducent.com are they? They are all from third party ad networks like "247media", they just have conducent in the URL as conducent are the ones that will get paid for the ad being displayed. These third party ads are displayed using IE and therefore you can use the same features to control your cookies (like prompt or disable) that you get when browsing any site. So I dont see it as any more of a issue than you browsing the Freeserve web site. As for...
The adds, when displayed on DG, have cookies. Therefore DG has cookies.
Come and visit this page, although this site doesnt use cookies because it is framed, the other page could if I actually wanted it to. Edited by - Dan Petitt on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 20:26:58 | Dan Petitt
(Staff)Posts: 2027
From: Budleigh Salterton, UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 13:15 | | (IP Logged) |
I have just made the following modifications to the site to try and make things clearer and people to be less suspicious: * Added text to the download page that states DigiGuide uses Conducent software * Created an Advertising Engine Common Questions page that contains links to common questions * Updated DigiGuide Terms and Conditions to be more explicit about what we install (this is also on installer and in the product -- on the next update) * Added FAQ for uninstalling the advertising engine I hope this helps to alay fears and suspicions. If there are any other factually incorrect statements or areas that can be factually improved anywhere on the site or product then please let me know. | Qwerty2000
Posts: 5
From: UK
| | Posted: Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 17:29 | | (IP Logged) |
Pionerr: which newsgroup, which thread? |
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DG, Timesink & GRC