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WITNESS #3 TESTIMONY
CAN YOU, JUST IN YOUR OWN WORDS, TELL ME HOW IT ALL STARTED? AND THEN WE'LL GO BACK AND ASK SOME QUESTIONS.
Well, Lebanon got the call. And we use the same dispatch, county dispatch, so of course I heard it, 'cause we're on the same channel. So Lebanon gets the call, and he's going there, and says "OK, I thought I'd never say this, but I see something but I don't know quite what it is." So when he gets closer, he said "OK, well, it's something big, I don't know what it is" and I just kept on trying to get closer, I guess, to talk about it, he all of a sudden said that, "OK, it just took off, it's gone, it's somewhere by maybe Scott or Shiloh, you might want to contact (unintelligible)." Then, the second he said that, I saw this object [unintelligible] big, wide thing, it was really wide, had 3 huge white lights, sighted down towards the ground, you know, lighting up the sky beneath it. And it just gradually moved on, wasn't moving like a jet, just gradually moving. I told dispatch I said “I think I see it” and I described it, and I told her, I said [unintelligible background noise] that would be it. Well, it's moving over Shiloh. [unintelligible] See, I was going Eastbound on 11th Avenue, it was like moving west. Shiloh is to my left, it was moving west. It was moving towards Fairview, Belleville. I was going east. I was coming this way and it was going that way.
OK, SO IT WAS GOING WEST?
Right. Then I looked, and my partner, he was going nuts. He was on this side of town, and he's, that's the one that, with the aviation [unintelligible] He said, "what's it look like, what's it doing?" I said “I don't know!” I said “it's flying, it's got 3 big white lights.” I said, “I mean it's wide, looks like an arrowhead or something.” It's dark, but because the lights were so bright I got somewhat of a visual. But I'm not for sure, it was quiet, I rolled my window down, then I stopped. I stopped to get out of the car, 'cause I wanted to take a picture, we carry a Polaroid, oh and that thing was gone. All of a sudden it sped up, next thing I knew it was way over by Belleville or Fairview already, and I'm like, “well, it's way down there now, somewhere by Belleville or Fairview,” I said “they're joking around, maybe it's going to Lambert.” And then Lebanon wanted to meet with me, see I know the Lebanon officer, the other two guys I don't know, and he's like, so I wanted to meet with him. And it's like, why me? I said, well why couldn't it be a new guy or something, you know? People gonna think we're nuts! And then, as we're talking, Milstadt, 'cause they use county dispatch also, and Milstadt was saying something on the radio, but we couldn't quite copy it. And then it came out that they said they had the object. And we're like, 'hey, we're not nuts! Somebody else has seen it.' So then Milstadt, apparently they'd seen it for awhile, I guess the Milstadt officer was there for awhile or something, I talked to him, but he was, I guess, the closest maybe? He said he was only 500 feet, someone told me.
AT THAT POINT IT WAS ABOUT 500 FEET IN THE AIR.
We told the dispatcher to call Scott, and Scott just, dispatcher said Scott laughed at 'em, said we don't see nothing. Of course they're not gonna tell you if they did. So they said 'well, we'll call Lambert, see if they got anything on radar.' They said, Lambert said they don't have nothing on radar, Doppler, nothing.
HOW HIGH WAS IT WHEN YOU FIRST SAW IT?
When it comes to judging, you know, in the sky, boy I don't wanna — I wanna say maybe a thousand feet maybe? Fifteen — I mean —
IT WASN'T TREETOP LEVEL—
No. It was right at the level where you could, you know, you could see it. If it would've been a plane, you'd have been able to tell it was just a plane, if that makes any sense.
WERE THERE ANY CLOUDS THAT NIGHT?
Not that I remember, actually I remember the sky was pretty clear. I know where this was, it was, you know, it was clear. That I do remember 'cause I mean you could see the stars, it was pretty clear that night.
WOULD YOU SAY IT WAS MAYBE THE HEIGHT OF A PLANE LANDING AT SCOTT?
Yeah, yeah, I'd almost say it was about helicopter — the level helicopters fly, you know they fly kinda low. Maybe that. If that makes any sense. 'Cause you know helicopters don't fly very high.
OK. THAT GIVES ME AN IDEA.
MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.
'Cause I hate giving height — I have no idea, you know. Maybe a thousand, thirteen hundred feet. Something like that.
WHEN YOU FIRST SAW IT, WAS IT ALREADY WEST OF YOU, OR…?
It was on my left side, probably, maybe where that white light is, it wasn't in front of me, it wasn't behind me, it was kinda off at an angle. So if I turned my head, I could just barely turn and see it and I could slowly follow it move and move, move, and by the time I pulled over to stop, it all of a sudden sped up. It was like, zhoo — I could see it, but it moved a lot faster.
DID YOU SEE ANYTHING THAT WOULD HAVE HELPED IT ACCELERATE, LIKE SMOKE OR AFTERBURNER, OR ANYTHING?
No, I didn't hear nothing, my window was rolled down, [phone rings several times] that phone's been ringing off the hook. Too many people finding out that this is going on! [unintelligible background conversation] There was no sound at all, as I had my window, and I was only going about 20 miles an hour, so I was doing 45 but when I saw it I was, you know, I slowed down, and I was driving slow anyway looking for the thing. So, there was no sound, no smoke, I could see behind it 'cause it was dark but I saw I guess the bottom of it, 'cause that's I guess where the lights were, were on the bottom of it, I'm assuming that's how I could tell it was really wide, 'cause I mean the lights lit up pretty good on the bottom, lit up the sky and everything.
OK. NOW, LET'S SAY FOR CONVERSATION'S SAKE, IT WAS A THOUSAND FEET, YOU'RE COMING THIS WAY AND IT'S GOING THAT WAY. ABOUT HOW FAR WOULD YOU SAY WAS IT FROM YOUR CAR TO STRAIGHT DOWN TO WHERE IT WOULD HAVE BEEN?
I'd probably say … maybe 500 yards? Maybe? [unintelligible dispatch background noise] so that'd be a quarter mile? [unintelligible dispatch background noise]
THAT'S PROBABLY PRETTY CLOSE TO THE CAR.
That's just a guess, and if it would've went straight down, you know, 'cause I mean it looked a lot closer when, you know, so, I'm just being safe in saying probably about a quarter mile.
WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING UP AT IT, YOU SAW THE BOTTOM OF IT?
That's what it looked like I saw. To me, [dispatch in the background]
WHAT DID THOSE LIGHTS LOOK LIKE?
They looked like big spotlights, I mean, big round or squarish, they were big lights and they were bright and the lit up the sky good, I mean they were bright. Almost like the helicopter, police helicopter, when they got the lights shining down — I mean they were bright.
DID IT HAVE A CONE LIKE PATTERN LIKE A SPOTLIGHT WOULD HAVE?
No, it was almost just like a, I guess, like a triangular shape, 'cause it was, I mean as it lit up they got wider towards the bottom, if that makes sense. That's what they asked me, and it didn't look like it did, I mean, it didn't like light up the ground, it lit up the sky above the ground, maybe it did and I couldn't tell, it lit up the sky, I mean you could see the light all the way down underneath it to the ground but whether it lit up the ground I really don't know.
OK. AND WHAT YOU SAW WERE THREE LIGHTS?
Yeah. And then there was colored, the real small flashing lights, which I'm assuming were at the rear, they were behind the light, the white light. And I'm assuming that was the rear, I wanna say a reddish or green, I mean they were kinda like flashing real small, so I couldn't, you know, I don't wanna say, you know, they were red or green, but that's what it looked like, but I'm not for sure. That's pretty much all I saw. I couldn't tell how long it was, but I could tell it was very wide. Really wide. And that's why it took a light, they had it lit up and that's always why I could tell.
COULD YOU TELL THE COLOR OF THE CRAFT?
I wanna say it was a real dark, I mean, I wanna say, it looked to me like it was a steel, like a heavy steel, like a real dark colored steel. And if I saw it again I'd be able to say if it was what I saw or not, 'cause I mean, the bottom anyway, the bottom was pretty lit up from the light shining down.
COULD YOU SEE ANYTHING ON THE BOTTOM OTHER THAN THE LIGHTS?
Just steel. I didn't see no markings, or nothing. I didn't see no light, little flashing light on top of that thing on the plane, the rear of a plane, I didn't see no labels on it, I didn't see anything like that, 'cause I did look for that. I would hope the military or some kind of aircraft, they should say United States or something on it.
ABOUT HOW LONG DO YOU THINK YOUR SIGHTING OF IT WAS?
You know, I told, I wanna say, I told a news guy 30 seconds, but that might have been a little too long. It might have been more like 20 seconds or so. It wasn't long, but it was a couple seconds. It was about 15, 20, it was about 20 seconds, 15, 20 seconds.
WHEN IT SPED UP, DID IT ACCELERATE REAL QUICK, OR DID IT SLOWLY ACCELERATE?
It slowly accelerated. I mean, it was just like, I mean it was weird. It was almost like it saw me stop, like I'm gonna get out of the car, and to me, it was just like gradually moving, almost like it was looking for something like that. Just gradually moving. And then it just, very quietly, just like a zhooom! But it's like, you know, sped off, like you know, it was weird. Well, wait a second here — like, this thing was gradually moving and all of a sudden it was like, you know, moved quick, you know, like, OK, didn't hear nothing. I mean, yeah, it kinda gradually just —
HOW DID YOU LOSE SIGHT OF IT?
Well, I guess I didn't like, lose, I mean I could see it from the lights underneath it, I mean I could see it going and that's why I told dispatch, well, it's Belleville or Fairview, you know, it's flying, I said heading that way. I said, I kinda, I guess I should have kept my eyes, but then I was, you know, basically, you know, just went on my business.
But you could see it, I mean you could see it for awhile.
DID IT MAINTAIN THE SAME ALTITUDE, WHEN IT SPED UP?
Yeah, it appeared to me it did, yeah.
IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING EVASIVE, OR—
No. It didn't, bellyrolls, or anything, it didn't look like it went up [unintelligible] same level.
AND STILL NO SOUND, EVEN WHEN IT ACCELERATED?
No, I didn't hear no sound at all. Not at all. And I still had the window down, and I didn't hear a thing. That's why I knew it wasn't a jet. 'Cause we thought at first when I met with Barton, I said, well, maybe it was a stealth, you know. I don't know much about military aircraft, but I'm assuming from going to the Scott Air Force Base a couple years ago, you know, when you got those plane shows, right? And they had that one that came in and I said 'oh man is that that stealth' and Barton said he knew planes 'cause he did something with planes, he's [unintelligible] the British-French plane or something that hovers [screeching background noise] well, no it ain't that either. So I'm like, well, I don't know! I'm thinking, I'm out of options.
IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO YOUR PATROL CAR, DID IT?
DIDN'T LOSE POWER, OR—
CLOCK STOP, OR—
No. Not that I noticed.
HAIR STAND UP ON YOUR NECK?
Nothing unusual happened, to me or the car. Gosh I hope not!
Yeah, OK! It looked like a diamond, or a triangle, yeah, that's what it looked like. This is the exact, it looked something like that, it was real long and how exactly long it was or whatever, I'm not for sure, but —
IS THIS A PICTURE OF IT?
No, that is one I got off the internet. It was supposed to be in Brazil or Belgium or something like that.
I couldn't tell if the three lights were even or not, it's possible the center one was kinda up a little, but I don't think it was at the front, it wasn't at the front of the plane. Or the jet, or whatever you wanna call it.
SO THIS ONE COULD'VE BEEN —
Yeah, but not like a whole lot, but it was up a little bit.
COULD YOU SEE ANY LIGHTS?
It didn't have 4 lights, that I know. And I asked them, well, is that a light or a glare? If that's a glare, then yeah, I guess, I mean it could've looked like that. But I know for a, there wasn't 4 lights, at least I didn't see, it didn't look like there was 4, no. I only saw 3, 3 bright ones anyway. It was kinda shaped like, I mean, you know, it was shaped like that, the corners were lit up light that. I don't think then that would've—
HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THAT BEFORE?
No. No. I haven't.
YOU WANNA SEE SOMETHING LIKE THAT AGAIN?
I just I wish I wouldn't have saw — yeah, and no.
I think maybe, then I said, that could've been up a little farther, but, I don't think there was all that to the front. Unless for some reason I saw it and it was tilted up but it didn't look like it, it looked like to me there was this, you know, like I said, slowly, gradually going, and it looked like 3 bright lights lighting up the sky beneath it.
HOW FAST DO YOU THINK IT WAS GOING WHEN YOU FIRST SAW IT?
Well, if you say it was like a vehicle moving? Vehicle speed? I'd probably say maybe 15 miles an hour.
Yeah, it wasn't going, it was gradually moving. It wasn't like moving steady speed, it was gradual, moving. It wasn't flitting, but it was gradually moving.
AND WHEN IT SPED UP, COULD YOU ESTIMATE HOW FAST IT WAS GOING THEN?
IF YOU'RE NOT COMFORTABLE GIVING US SPEEDS, WELL —
I'd have to say, at least 80 to a hundred, at least. I mean, you know, going car, vehicle-wise. It got to Belleville or Swansea that quick. It might've been faster than that.
AFTER IT PASSED OVER YOU AND IT SPED UP, ABOUT HOW MUCH LONGER WAS IT BEFORE YOU HEARD FROM MILSTADT THAT THEY SAW IT?
Well, when we picked it up on the radio, I'm gonna say 10 minutes, 'cause after I saw it I got fuel before I met with Lebanon. It took approximately about 5 minutes to get fuel and all that and about 5 to (unintelligible) so I'd say about 10 minutes [dispatch noise] he said it saw it earlier, 'cause we always pick up the other towns very clear, you know, so it's possible, but when we heard 'em, I'd say about 10 minutes.
I was hoping dispatch would've called Belleville, or even Fairview or something, 'cause they carry video cameras in their car, most of them, some of them. They would've been able to [unintelligible] see we don't carry video cameras.
WELL THEY EVIDENTLY DIDN'T CALL ANYBODY AND THEY WERE RIGHT THERE, DISPATCH WAS RIGHT THERE.
I can't believe Mascoutah didn't see it either, of course Mascoutah probably didn't want to look.
WE TALKED TO THEM THIS MORNING AND THEY DON'T HAVE ANYTHING. NOBODY UP IN THE TOWER. THEIR CONTROLLER IS ACTUALLY DOWN ON THE GROUND WHEN THERE'S NOTHING COMING IN.
Scott Air Force Base?
NO, AT MID AMERICA.
YOU'D THINK THERE SHOULD'VE BEEN SOMEBODY IN THAT TOWER, AT SCOTT.
At Scott Air Force Base, yeah. There should've been someone in the tower. He would know better than I would. One of the girls I'm kinda getting friends with, dating or whatever, she lives on base. I told her to ask her stepdad, out of curiosity, ask her about the tower on base. And see if there should be anyone, so, she was supposed to call me and let me know what he says.
ABOUT WHAT TIME OF THE MORNING?
It was about 4:20, 4:30, something, somewhere around there. I don't know the exact time—
Have you talked to Milstadt officer?
YEAH, I TALKED TO HIM ON THE PHONE ON WEDNESDAY MORNING, RIGHT AFTER IT HAPPENED.
What did he say it looked like?
Well what we did see was the same thing, then.
AND THEN THE DUPO GUY, WE HAVEN'T TALKED TO, WE HAVE TO TALK TO HIM MAYBE TOMORROW IF WE CAN FIND HIM. AND THAT WAS THE LAST IT WAS SEEN THAT WE KNOW OF.
That's what we heard too. Apparently he saw it going up first.
WELL AGAIN, AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED THAT'S RUMOR
That's what someone told me too.
YOU SAID IT WAS REALLY WIDE. CAN YOU GIVE ME A GUESSTIMATE?
I'd say 75 yards to 100 yards, at least. I don't know if my dimensions are wrong. [tape change] Pretty wide.
COULD YOU TELL THE DEPTH OF IT?
No, I heard that the first guy, the original guy, said it looked like a house. It didn't look like a two-story house to me, and I said it was wide, it was big, but I couldn't say how high it was, no, I couldn't tell you. It was too dark to see, I couldn't tell. I tried to see what it was, but I couldn't tell, it was dark, but right where the bright lights were, it wasn't. It was like everything else around those lights was dark.
COULD YOU TELL, WERE THERE ANY LIGHTS SHOOTING UP ON TOP OF IT?
It didn't look like there was, no.
ALL THE LIGHTS THAT YOU SAW WERE ON THE BOTTOM?
They were on the bottom, and then I'm assuming the color, the flashing lights, were at the rear, I'm assuming. Possibly, they could've been, also on the bottom of it, I don't know for sure, they were much smaller. Much smaller.
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME.
Oh no problem. I hope you guys find out what it was. 'Cause I'd be happy to know!
WELL BELIEVE ME, THERE'S THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT SEE THESE THINGS EVERY YEAR.
I been hearing these rumors that a lot of people have been, a lot of countries, a lot of places, have been seeing this, just like recently, lately. Is that true?
YEAH, IT SEEMS TO COME IN SPURTS.
WELL I APPRECIATE YOUR HELP.
Not a problem.
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