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WITNESS #2 TESTIMONY

 

WOULD YOU KIND OF RELATE, IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHAT HAPPENED OR WHAT YOU SAW, OR WHAT TRANSPIRED ON THE 5TH?

It was about 4:10 in the morning on Wednesday the 5th when I got a call from St. Clair county Sheriffs Department, also known as CENCOM to investigate a “object the size of approximately a two story house with bright lights flying around Lebanon. Okay, at first I thought they were kidding, so I said, “You're joking, right?” “Negative.” Okay. So I headed north out toward a park at the very north end of our city, out in the country. I turned eastbound on (s/l Whittikiss) road, and after going about another 300-400 feet is when I noticed what looked like two gigantic lights almost…they were close enough to almost be touching. You could barely discern in-between the two.

WERE THEY PARALLEL OR…?

No, I'm sorry…

…OR HORIZONTAL?

..yeah they were side by side, and they had a…there were…this tremendously bright, white light with…like white light, also emitting almost like rays, like a Japanese rising sun battle flag? Imagine the red to be white, and that's what it looked like. Completely around both of them. There was no…there was no place where it wasn't seen. I got on to Route 4, turned south, and I'm trying to keep this under observation the entire time…

WHICH DIRECTION WAS IT FROM YOU?

I'm sorry—when I first saw it, it was southeast of me at about…it would have been at my 1 or 2 o'clock. When I turned on to Route 4—headed southbound, and then it just kind of turned into one large bright, white light. I didn't see them…it wasn't like they merged, it was just like all of a sudden it was one large, bright light, again with the white kind of rays emitting from it for lack of a better term. Well, I turned on my overheads so that way I could get to it quicker (there was a few cars on the road), and I sped up, and I'm still watching it and right now as I'm heading south on 4, it would have been at about my 10 o'clock position. There's 2 or 3 large radio antennas out there at Summerfield, and it looked like it was slightly above those. They have red, flashing lights? It looked like it was slightly above those. When I got to Route 50 up there at the square where you guys hung a left to come here—the flashing red light? I hung a left, which was eastbound on Route 50. I could see it, except now it changed into kind of like an elongated cigar-shape, and again the white light emitting from it, same as before. I sped up the car now, and it's about—again my…anywhere between 1-2 o'clock position. It was stationary the entire time, or at least it looked to be stationary the entire time. Just before I got to old Route 50, which is the turn-in towards Summerfield, it looked like it was moving towards me. Again it was just a cigar-shape as it was moving towards me. So I stopped the car, I turned off the overheads, turned off everything, got out and I'm looking, and it just kind of slowly floated…hovered, well, not hovered, but slowly came towards me, and when it was about 120 feet south of my position is when I actually could see that. I could see no definite outline, meaning there was like here's white, here's black kind of deal, but it looked like a massive, elongated triangle where the base was narrower than it was long. It was dark. I had thought about the stars that were above it, that I noticed were above it, and on the front, or what I perceived to be the front, where the very point was, there was a large, bright, white light. It wasn't oscillating, it wasn't moving, it just pointed straight down, and it was so bright I had to squint my eyes. In the back…

DO YOU THINK THIS WAS THE WHITE LIGHT THAT YOU HAD SEEN PREVIOUS OR…?

It could have been, I honestly don't know, because again, this…it wasn't like it wrapped around. Whatever this was, it was just pointing straight down. Again it was just really, really bright. Almost like…like I told the guys here, it was almost as though if you put your face in the spotlight of the squad car, open your eyes, turn on the spotlight, it was kind of that bright. It was a squinty type thing. In the back…same two kind of lights, again, massively bright, but in-between and just above those bright lights there was a red…like a blinking light. That's why first I thought again, maybe it is an aircraft. Again, I didn't want over the air since some of the agents hear this and so on and so forth, and so I asked CENCOM if they could call Scott and see if they have anything in the air, or if they have anything on radar. They advised negative. Okay. This probably isn't a plane and what really got me was when there was no noise. There was no noise. Again…

HOW FAR AWAY FROM IT AT THIS POINT DO YOU THINK YOU WERE?

I want to guess maybe 1,000 feet, approximately 1,000 feet because it just…again, not knowing the exact size of the object—I want to say it was somewhere between 65 and 75 feet long, probably longer than that, but that's just a guess, and about 35 to 45 feet wide at the base. Then, next thing I know, it started to move off again rather slowly towards the southwest and it came to me out of the southeast heading in a northwesterly, and then it just kind of turned—it was heading southwest. Just as I was thinking, 'What the hell?' and I see what looked like different colored lights on the back and again, like I said on the Art Bell thing, you know, like the Millennium Falcon from Star Wars? If you remember the back of that as it was going, it was just like one big rectangular light? It was like that, except there was multi-colored lights going lengthwise. I couldn't discern individual lights, like this one's red, that one's blue—whatever. It just kind of all…kind of faded into multi-colored lights. It was almost like a glow stick or something like that, that was multi-colored. I'm telling CENCOM where it's heading, and the next thing I know, it's over Shilo. So I told them, I said, “Contact Shilo P.D. telling their officers to look up and they should see it now.” One of the officers in there said, “Yeah, I see it. I don't know what the hell it is, but I see it.” And that was the last I saw it. It was heading in the southwest direction.

SO YOU KIND OF LOST IT OVER THE HORIZON?

Yes, sir. It came within…I would say approximately 2 miles north of Scott Air Force Base. It almost looked like it was—not skirting, but just touching the edge of it, for lack of a better term. Like I told CENCOM over the air when I first saw it, I know it's not the moon, I know it's not the stars and I don't know what the hell it was, but I can tell you everything what it wasn't. I was a military brat for over 21 years. I'm into planes. I've built model planes. Like I said, I'm into that kind of stuff and I could damn near tell you what plane is in the air if I listen to the engine noise. It was no aircraft, fixed or rotary wing. There's no way. At least nothing that I know of, I'll put it that way. Yeah, it pretty well screwed me up. I hadn't slept until today. This is the first time I've slept. I tried giving up smoking, and, well, that kind of nixed that idea. Yeah it…just…again, I had no clue what it was. I couldn't tell you what it was. But I could tell you what it wasn't, without a shadow of a doubt.

(INAUDIBLE) SCARED ME.

I watched it for a total of about 4 to 5 minutes. After that, it seemed like…because I had my overheads on, I was in the same squad car I'm in tonight. I don't know if maybe that attracted it again. I don't know. It started come to me and that's why I turned everything off, not because I thought, uh-oh, here they come for me kind of deal. It was just, this way I'll be able to hear better because rotators make noise—engines make noise. I even turned off the squad radio so all I had was my portable on. There was no noise. No noise.

I'LL BE DARNED.

That's when I knew that it was something that I don't think I've ever seen before.

OKAY. LET'S GO BACK TO THE BEGINNING THEN. YOU GET THE CALL FROM…?

St. Clair County.

OH. FROM ST. CLAIR?

Yes, sir.

WHO GOT THE CALL FROM…?

Oh, I'm sorry—Highland Police Department.

OKAY. NOW WHEN YOU SAW IT FIRST, YOU SAID…WAS IT SOUTHEAST?

Yes, sir. Yeah, it was southeast.

NOW ISN'T HIGHLAND…

It's northwest.

…NORTH OF HERE? THAT'S CONFUSING. HOW DID IT GET SOUTHEAST OF YOU?

From what I was told, this guy was either driving through Lebanon, or by Lebanon when he saw it, and the only Police Department that he knew of that he was driving to…

OH, I SEE. OKAY.

…Highland, so he stopped there and from what they told me, he refused to leave until they called St. Clair County to let us know. He just absolutely refused to leave. I've got his name also if you need that.

YEAH, I TALKED TO HIM THIS AFTERNOON.

Okay.

GOOD. ALRIGHT, SO IT'S SOUTHEAST OF YOU..?

Yeah, let me get map. That might be a litter easier.

YES. PERFECT.

Okay, you guys came in on 64. Where I was, was right here on (s/l Whittikiss) rd.

COULD WE MAKE A XEROX COPY OF THAT? THEN I'LL JUST MARK IT.

Yeah, that's not a problem.

YEAH, THAT WOULD BE GREAT.

If you guys wanted, I could take you up there, you know, I just (inaudible)…

HOW ABOUT MAKING TWO COPIES, THEN I'LL WRITE ON ONE AND THEN WE'LL DRAW A GOOD…WHERE ARE WE ON THAT MAP?

Okay, right here. This is Lebanon—the kind of lined-out area. First I went up this road which is now (s/l Whittikiss) rd., and then I hung east onto still Whittikiss rd. and I was about in here when I saw it and it appeared to be somewhere right in this area—kind of over the northeastern edge of Summerfield.

OKAY, SO YOU'RE LOOKING SOUTHEAST AT IT?

Yes.

THIS IS NORTH?

Yes.

OKAY.

Then I turned south onto Route 4 because obviously, now seeing it I knew about where it was at, and it was about…see, it was before Midgely-Neiss Rd.—it was about in here when I watched it turn into one, again, one gigantic, bright light.

OKAY, NOW WAS IT STILL IN THIS GENERAL AREA, OR HAD IT MOVED?

No, it appeared to stay stationary the entire time. If you need paper I could get you some paper also.

IT TURNED INTO ONE BRIGHT LIGHT.

Then I turned on my overheads at that point. (Inaudible) just when I kept it almost under continual observation because in here there's houses and trees and stuff like that, that periodically it wasn't in my view. I turned left onto east Route 50, and as I was coming down the hill—as I got to the bottom of the hill, which is directly that way…this is heading east, it's when it turned into the elongated cigar, for the lack of a better term. (Inaudible) think about to describe.

AND IT WAS STILL IN THIS GENERAL AREA THOUGH, RIGHT?

Yes, it would be in the same spot.

SO NOW YOU'RE COME IN ALMOST HEAD ON AT IT, RIGHT?

Yes. Yes, I'm heading east on 50—this is what's called old Route 50 or Summerfield rd. I got to right about this point prior to the turn at the top of the hill. It looked like it was starting to move towards me, heading in a northwesterly direction.

OKAY, NOW IT'S MOVING THIS WAY.

So it was somewhere in here where I pulled off the side of the road, the car was kind of canted—pointing where I last seen it. I turned off everything, got out and I'm kind of watching and I could…that was after I saw it coming towards me again. I can't estimate the speed, it was coming towards me. When it got…again I'd have guessed 100 to 200 feet south of where I was, is when it looked like it started to do a turn because the cigar started actually turning into a form that I could (inaudible) this massive triangle.

DID IT BANK…?

No.

…OR DID IT TURN…?

No, it looked like it was a flat…

A FLAT TURN? OKAY.

A flat turn. I saw it going like this and it was going really slow as it passed over me, and that's when I reached in the squad car to call to call CENCOM, and I'm trying to watch at the same time and just as I'm transferring to CENCOM is when this “Woosh!”—it took off southwest. I mean this was a real high rate of speed. It was like it was there, and the next thing I know it was over Shiloh.

WOW. NOW WHERE IS SHILO HERE? [STILL LOOKING AT THE MAP.] HERE IS SCOTT.

Shiloh is over…Shiloh is right in here. It's just past 158 and 50, which is this road right here.

OKAY, SO FROM HERE TO HERE IT TOOK OFF LIKE A SHOT, HUH?

Yeah…not within a (inaudible), but I think maybe 2 or 3 seconds it may have just…it just seemed to be here and it was gone. It was that quick. But again, when it did the turn, that's when I got what I thought was a good look at the bottom, and that's…that and the no noise, I just…again, just knew it wasn't an aircraft. It was nothing I have seen. I've seen the Stealth fighter, yes, I've seen the Stealth bomber, blah, blah, blah, but even they make noise. People have been trying to tell me it was a Harrier and I've been in England before, been in Germany, and I've seen Harrier close up, blah, blah, blah, and they make a hell of a lot more noise then a regular aircraft, so I know it wasn't one of those either. But again, as it was going away, it just…the first thing it reminded me of was the millennium Falcon out of 'Star Wars', I mean that was just the first thing that came to mind, except for…

NOW THAT'S A GOOD DESCRIPTION.

…the lights going across, again, lengthwise—I'd say at about the middle, in-between the white light, and it just…you couldn't see individual lights. Like I said, it was almost like a glow stick painted different colors.

THERE WAS WHITE LIGHT ON TOP OF IT AND WHITE LIGHT BELOW IT, AND THEN DIFFERENT COLORED LIGHTS ACROSS THE MIDDLE?

Yes, sir.

I'M TRYING TO GET A PICTURE OF THAT. SO FROM HERE, IT SHOT TO HERE IN A COUPLE OF SECONDS?

Yes, sir.

DID YOU AGAIN TRY TO CHASE IT THEN, OR IS THAT…WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?

I got back in the car, I lit a cigarette and I just kind of sat there wondering what the (expletive) it was I saw. I mean, I sort of believe in this kind of stuff—kind of, and...yeah, now I'm a believer now, I'll put it that way. I'm a believer now.

THEN FROM SHILOH IT'S MOVING SOUTHWEST TOWARD…

To Milstadt.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN WHY IT CAME DOWN TO MILSTADT, DIDN'T THEY?

And then from Milstadt—and I'm not sure what relation Dupo is from Millstadt, but I heard Milstadt call St. Clair County and tell them to get Milst…or Dupo look in that area because it was heading towards them, and then I heard a Dupo officer come on and say he was watching it through field glasses. I don't know which Dupo officer it was. In Shilo it was officer Martin, but he hasn't come forward yet, and I don't know if he wants anything to do with that. It kind of messed him up too. I know after I had did my drawings and stuff like that, because I didn't want his description to interfere with my own, or influence mine, I was sitting with him at the Motor Mart at 158 and 50, and I said, 'What the hell did you see?', and he described the same thing I saw. He said—again, he didn't know what it was. He told me he didn't hear any noise either or anything like that, and he basically described the same triangle that I was talking about. I don't remember if he saw the lights on the bottom or anything, but he said he saw the multi-colored lights and all that too. I mean, he lives just down the street from me. I told him kind of jokingly that day, I said, 'You know, if all the news reporters and so forth come out, it's your job to block them from getting from my house.'

HOW FAR WOULD YOU ESTIMATE IT TO BE FROM HERE TO HERE?

I would say approximately 7 to 8 miles.

7 TO 8 MILES?

Yes, I believe. When I first saw it from my personal location where I saw it, again, I would guess it was approximately 5 to 6 miles away. Somewhere right in there.

5 TO 6 MILES? SO, FROM HERE TO HERE—THAT'S A PRETTY GOOD ESTIMATE, IF THIS MAP IS TO SCALE.

Yeah.

IT APPEARS THAT IT IS. WHAT WAS THE ALTITUDE OF IT?

Well, there was scattered clouds. I remember it was below the cloud layer, and I want to say anywhere between 1,000 to 2,000 ft., and the reason for so much in difference is, I'm not sure how big this craft was. I have no clue. If I had a good estimate how big it was, I could tell you a lot better. I used to do the fly-overs with (inaudible) to look for dope deals and stuff like that, and again, (inaudible) the altitude isn't really a problem for me to estimate. It did blot out the stars that were around it, I can tell you that much. No, it wasn't a weather balloon for the other people and stuff (inaudible) did know. I don't know why I could see that…that red light is what really stands out in my mind. It wasn't rotating light. It wasn't like a positional beacon or something like that. It was just a blinking red light.

PULSATING, KIND OF?

Uh-huh. That, I remember seeing really clear. That was the only light…because again, the two on the back, and then this one was in the middle, but up, towards (inaudible). Yeah, I'm squinting my eyes trying to see everything, and that, for some reason really stood out. I don't know why.

IT'S GOT TO BE AN EXPERIENCE.

Yeah. One of our other officers, unfortunately for him, I guess, a guy named Barry Foster—he used work with us some years ago—he saw something northwest of town. I don't know who it was he reported it to, but they sent out investigators and all that. Of course I was one of the ones that was ribbing him and that's why I expected this. I know how he felt now.

YEAH, YOU'RE GOING TO HEAR IT A LOT, I'M SURE.

I feel like crap now for doing that to him, but man, I couldn't have even guestimated…yeah. That's all that happened. I know there was one…I believe it was a C-5 that flew over Lebanon at about 5 minutes prior to that, and again, that's how I know this wasn't a C-5.

HOW WOULD YOU COMPARE IT TO THE SIZE OF A C-5?

Again, depending on how high it was, I would say about probably the same size, maybe a little bigger. That could be why I'm thinking it's only that—the smaller size in estimate. Again, if I knew exactly how high it was, I could tell you without a doubt in my mind, yeah, it's about this big, this big, this big. That's what I said before when I was giving the dimensions—that's just an estimate, a guestimate actually. I remember it was definitely the size of the radio towers out there. I remember that because it was coming towards me. I could still see the flashing lights up on top as it was coming towards me. Again, just a rough guess—from 1,000 to 2,000 ft. up. Yeah, it could very easily have been as big as or bigger than a C-5. Very easily. I don't know if you guys would be interested in this, but I was told that about 18 to 20 years ago, and I realize this is a long time ago—there was crop circles also, in and around Summerfield.

OH, IS THAT RIGHT? I HAVEN'T HEARD THAT. 18 TO 20 YEARS AGO?

That was with one of the (inaudible) that works for St. Claire County Sherriff's Department. That's what she was telling me. But that was prior to me even coming to this area. I'm an Air Force brat, so I'm a transplant.

DOES SUMMERFIELD HAVE A POLICE DEPARTMENT?

Yeah, but it's very part time though. He works full-time for the Sherriff's Department, then he's out there periodically.

WAS HE…HE WASN'T ON DUTY THAT NIGHT?

No.

SO NOBODY FROM SUMMERFIELD SAW IT?

No, sir. The only departments I know for sure that saw it was myself, Shilo, Milstadt and Duppo. Those are the only ones I know for sure. Then now I'm hearing rumors that…from the guy that I relieved today that (inaudible) Scott Air Force Base, one of their Security Forces officers saw it, and that's when he called the tower or something also, and they were saying, “No, there's nothing in the air right now.” But again, that's unconfirmed, and at this point I'm just treating that as a rumor.

OKAY. I'M GOING TO CALL IT THAT TOO. WE CAN CHECK ON THAT RUMOR. SECURITY FORCE GUY SAW IT ALSO.

YOU DON'T HAVE A NAME OR ANYTHING OR THE SECURITY GUY'S (INAUDIBLE, S/L 'PHONE')?

No, sir. Not at this time. I can call a couple of our part-timers, or Air Force (inaudible), I could call one of them and find out, you know…

COULD YOU, BECAUSE I USED TO BE IN THE SECURITY POLICE. THEY DIDN'T CALL THEM SECURITY FORCES BACK THEN. I'D LIKE TO TALK TO THEM.

Okay. I'll get a name for you because that's not a problem.

WE ALSO—I THINK IT WAS ON THE ART BELL SHOW, WHERE SOMEBODY SAID THAT THERE WAS AN UNCONFIRMED RUMOR THAT LAMBERT FIELD…

Yeah, there's a National Guard fighter outfit out there, and allegedly—now this is just according to Mr. Davenport, because he asked me about it and I said I really don't know—that they scrambled a couple of fighters looking for this. But again, I don't know.

YOU DID NOT SEE ANY?

No, I'm…we're 23 miles from St. Louis. It's over 23 miles to east St. Louis. Not even on a clear can you see what's coming over there. I don't know how far we are from Lambert, but from St. Louis to here is about 23 miles.

IF THEY HAD BEEN HIGH YOU MIGHT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE THEM. WOULDN'T YOU THINK?

Possibly, but again there was scattered clouds and stuff like that, so again, I'd hate to say yes, and then it would turn out a definite no later on. I just want to give yes, this is what I know, that kind of thing.

RIGHT. ALSO…WE'LL CHECK THESE OUT.

Also, when it flew, I didn't feel like anything—like I've heard some people say it's warm or cold. I didn't feel warm, cold or otherwise. It just felt the same. The radio didn't die or anything like that. No anomalies, I guess, for lack of a better word.

HOW ABOUT ANIMALS IN THE AREA? I MEAN, WERE THERE COWS BRAYING, OR WERE THERE…?

None that I know of. No there again, it was just deadly quiet. Totally silent. There's farmers fields all around. We're based near a rural area. There's cows everywhere. Cows, chickens, ducks, sheep. You name it, they say it's around here.

HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN WITH THE DEPARTMENT HERE?

12 years. I also worked Summerfield part-time some years ago on my off days. I also worked Brooklyn, Illinois, which is how I got this. I got in the face twice, so on and so forth. This is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

WHEN YOU WERE LOOKING AT IT HEAD-ON HERE, LET'S SAY IT WAS 1,000 FT. IN THE AIR—IF IT WAS HERE AND YOU WERE HERE, WHAT WAS THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU? ASIDE: DO YOU NEED TO TAKE THAT CALL?

No. No, this the beeper. I would say maybe 1,500 or 2,000 ft., because it was closing the distance—not really rapidly, but it was definitely…

IT WAS COMING TOWARD YOU…

Oh yeah.

…AND THEN AT…FROM THAT POINT IS WHEN IT SHOT?

Yes, sir—well, what it did is it came, again, I want to say it might have 100-200 ft. south. If this was my squad car, again, not to scale, but it was like…then it just did like a flat turn and (inaudible) went off, and that's when I thought I had time, and then just 'Whoosh!', it just shot off like bat out of hell. The light didn't get wider as it left, as far as I remember, or anything like that. I didn't see anything coming out of it—(inaudible) aerials or anything like that. When I saw it offside on the bottom, it just looked like a flat triangle—a flat, elongated triangle.

COULD YOU TELL ANY THICKNESS TO IT?

No, sir. Again, I was trying to see as much as I could.

It wasn't so much that, it was just the lights were so bright. Again, looking into a squad car spotlight, if you turn on the spotlight, and that's…to me, that's about the only way I can put it. But it was just so…they were so bright. Again, that's why I was squinting as I'm looking at it, and maybe that's why I didn't notice any of the details. I don't know, but it was just…it was bright, a very bright light.

THAT LIGHT THAT WAS SHINING DOWN, DID YOU TELL WHETHER IT WAS SHINING ON?

No, it didn't seem to be illuminating the ground…see, this is kind of weird.

SO IT WASN'T LIKE A SPOTLIGHT?

No. No, no, because I would have seen the circles on the ground, and I didn't see anything. It was just…I don't know—almost like maybe a glass window with a whole lot of bright lights behind it kind of deal—possibly something like that. It was shining out so bright that I just had to squint my eyes, and it was…again (inaudible). Now, Sergeant (inaudible) was the one that drew that triangle thing, but it was basically…that's a good drawing except for that top cockpit thing because I didn't see anything up top. But that's…that's actually good. The only thing he didn't include was the lights on the back—the multi-colored.

WHAT WE'D LIKE TO DO TOMORROW, AS LONG AS YOU'RE GOING TO BE ON DUTY—WHAT WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO DO IS VIDEOTAPE THE PATH OF THE WHOLE THING.

Sure.

WE'RE GOING TO MEET WITH ____________ TOMORROW MORNING SOMETIME, AND HE'S GOING TO SHOW US WHERE IT WAS FROM HIS VANTAGE POINT.

Oh, okay. Cool.

THEN WE'VE GOT…AS LONG YOU'RE GOING TO BE ON DUTY TOMORROW, IF WE COULD MEET YOU…

Yeah, that's not a problem.

…AND KIND OF WALK THROUGH VIDEOTAPING-WISE WHAT HAPPENED. IF THAT'S ALRIGHT WITH YOU, AND THEN WE'LL MOVE ON TO SHILO AND.

Yeah, Sunday day shifts are usually extremely quiet, so that's not a problem. Not a problem.

HOW IN THE HECK DO YOU STAY AWAKE THAT LONG?

I don't know.

A LOT OF COFFEE?

No, believe it or not I've done this ever since I've come to the states back in '84. I've always worked the midnight shifts and I just got a weird body, like I don't sleep. Usually I'm up for about 48 hours then I'll sleep for about 8 to 10.

I'LL BE DAMNED.

That's how my body's weird.

GOODNESS…

That is the only thing I can come close to comparing with this, except this I didn't get that scared feeling like, 'Oh Jesus, I'd better run' or something like that. One of the other officers said, “I'd have taken a shot at it.”, and I thought, no.

YOU KNOW, THEY TALK BIG. THEY TALK BIG.

It's like, no, there's no way I would have shot at it. There's no way.

TALK IS CHEAP.

No way. Again, it wasn't like, “Oh Jesus Christ, I'm scared shitless.”, kind of feeling.

YEAH, IT WASN'T THREATENING YOU.

But it didn't make me feel totally comfortable. I was just kind of like in awe, for lack of a better term. It was just like, “Wow, what the hell is this?” I'm running through my mind, okay, it's not this kind of plane, this kind of plane, this kind of plane, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and when I came up blank, that's when I called Mr. Davenport and things kind of went from there.

OH, SO IT WAS YOU THAT CALLED DAVENPORT?

Yeah.

WELL, MILSTADT CALLED US.

Oh see, I didn't know your guy's number, or else I would have called you guys too.

YEAH, MILSTADT CALLED US. WE SENT A BROCHURE AROUND TO ALL POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE UNITED STATES.

How long ago was this?

MAYBE 4 MONTHS?

OF COURSE PETER'S BEEN AROUND FOREVER. A LOT OF DEPARTMENTS KNOW ABOUT HIM.

First time I heard of him was on the Art Bell show because it was that officer Foster I told you about that had that experience out there. He's the first one that turned me on to Art Bell. So when Mr. Davenport said, 'Would you mind doing the show?', I thought no problem, because he doesn't seem to make everybody feel like a kook. The guy seemed straight up, so (inaudible) no problem.

YEAH, THERE ARE SOME HOSTS THAT WOULD…

Exactly. That's one of the reasons why I'm not calling back all these people.

ARE MOST OF THEM MEDIA THAT…?

They're all media.

THEY'RE ALL MEDIA?

Channel 4 out of St. Louis, the (inaudible) Democrat, some radio station out of Belleville, the local town paper, which this guy.

WHO WAS HE WITH?

He's the Lebanon advertiser, his office is just right across the street…kitty corner just right across the street.

THAT'S THE LOCAL NEWSPAPER?

Yeah.

KMOX, IS THAT RADIO OR TV?

Radio.

RADIO?

The people it might be good to call too would be CENCOM or St. Clair County. I don't know how many people actually called them about it.

YEAH, I MET WITH THEM THIS MORNING.

Okay. Because afterwards I was kind of joking about it after the air I know both of us kept asking, 'Are you joking?', 'No', 'Are you joking?', 'No', that kind of thing.

WHO WAS IT THAT ASKED IF THE GUY WAS DRUNK?

Milstadt said me, but I don't remember saying that. I could very well have, but I don't remember saying that. There's a lot about that night that I…I just kind of want to get out of the back of my mind.

OKAY, SUPER. OFFICER _________ IS BACK AND HE HAS PHOTOGRAPHS OF WHAT HE SAW. NOW I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.

And the lines coming off, again, that's just trying to represent the white lines that was coming off from whatever it was.

RIGHT, YEAH.

Those two fall along obviously this way, but it was more..well, where this light was, and like that was the edge of the craft, were all the lights.

SUPER. COULD WE MAKE COPIES OF THAT? YOU'VE DONE SOME CRIME SCENE SKETCHES BEFORE?

Well, for 5 years, I was the evidence room custodian (inaudible) crime scene (inaudible).

WELL, WHEN YOU'RE WORKING 30 HOUR SHIFTS, THAT…

(Inaudible—speaking from background)

IT IS? OKAY.

Because we're supposed to work 4-10 hour shifts then work 3. That kind of thing.

WHAT WOULD BE A CONVENIENT TIME TO MEET WITH YOU TOMORROW?

Anytime. I'm on duty from 6:00 a.m. until 2:00 Monday morning, so I'm available any of those hours. You know, whenever it's okay for you guys. I know you guys got a lot of people you want to talk to and stuff like that, so that's not a problem. Whenever is fine.

ALRIGHT. WHEN WE GET TO TOWN, HOW'S THE BEST WAY TO REACH YOU? DO WE HAVE TO GO THROUGH DISPATCH, OR…?

Yeah. If you guys come in the station—I don't know if you saw that phone directory to the right of that door?

YEAH.

Just pick that up and automatically dial anything and it automatically rings us into St. Clair County. Just have them have the on duty officer come up and (inaudible).

OKAY. SUPER.

So I'll know exactly what's going on, so that's okay.

FANTASTIC. DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD? ANY GUT FEELINGS, OR THINGS YOU MAY HAVE LEFT OUT.

Definitely kind of like what Art Bell said, either it's something (inaudible), or it definitely isn't from the earth. It's like no plane I ever saw before, and it just left me awestruck. That's, like I said, that's why we were joking around on the air because I didn't know how else to deal with it. It just…I didn't know how else to deal with it.

WHEN IT SHOT, FROM HERE TO HERE, DID YOU SEE ANY EXHAUST, OR WAS THERE ANY NOISE THEN?

No. There was still no noise. I saw no contrails or anything like that—nothing. There was just…it was like one second it was here and the next couple of seconds it was over there.

I MEAN, NO…LIKE AN AFTERBURNER THAT YOU WOULD SEE ON A JET THAT TOOK OFF?

No, no. Yeah, because again, I used to watch planes taking off too when we were stationed on base. No. Nothing like that. Nothing at all.

THAT IS REALLY WEIRD.

That's why…like I said, on the back of it, when I saw it, it wasn't like the lights were burning brighter or dimmer. They stayed the same consistency, except it was just from here to there.

DO THEY DO…ARE YOU AWARE, DO THEY DO ANY R & D OUT AT SCOTT?

No. Scott's air evac and refueling. I mean, basically anybody can get on the base. It's not that hard. Whether you go through the gate or otherwise, it's not that hard. Then of course they made the jokes—one guy, I forget who it was that said maybe they're heading for Lambert and saw us and I brought up the Midwest airport down over here—the new one that was just constructed. Then again, that was my way of kind of trying to deal with the situation. I'd have probably had a (inaudible-s/l bullet in my brain) otherwise, because I definitely thought about it the rest the night. I didn't know what the hell.

I'M NO PSYCHOLOGIST, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE DEALING WITH IT PRETTY WELL, OTHER THAN NOT BEING ABLE TO SLEEP. YOU'VE GOT TO…OBVIOUSLY I'VE NEVER HAD THAT EXPERIENCE, BUT I'VE HAD OTHER EXPERIENCES THAT COULD GET INSIDE YOUR MIND AND PLAY GAMES WITH YOU AND…A GOOD SENSE OF HUMOR IS VERY (INAUDIBLE) HERE. EVEN THE RIBBING FROM THE GUYS…

That's…again, I expected that because of what happened to officer Foster. Again, as bad as it sounds, I was one of the ones that gave him hell and I feel stupid for that now. I truly do. I wish—if I knew where he was I'd call him and say, “Look bud, I am sorry, very sorry.”

WHO WAS THE EARLIER, ALONG WITH YOU THAT WAS INTERVIEWED ON THE ART BELL SHOW?

________________ with Milstadt.

__________________? OKAY.

The Shilo officer that saw it was____________. If you want, I'll try and get in contact with him and see if he wouldn't mind talking to you guys too.

I GOT HIS NAME TODAY BECAUSE I CALLED THE DEPARTMENT, BUT YOU KNOW, SINCE YOU KNOW HIM IT WOULD DO US A FAVOR IF YOU WOULD CALL HIM. I GUESS HE COMES ON DUTY AT 1900 TOMORROW NIGHT, AND THAT'S WHEN I'M GOING TO TRY TO CONTACT HIM.

Not a problem. That's not a problem. I can do that.

WE'RE NOT LITTLE GREY GUYS EITHER, OR MEN IN BLACK.

Actually that's something I thought about too. I thought, 'Oh Jesus, now they're going to be coming to my damn house'. I'm just happy my phone number's not published. Did you guys need that for whatever reason, or anything?

NO. WE WOULD NOT CONTACT YOU OFF DUTY.

I don't…that's something I don't mind. That's not a problem.

DID YOU TALK TO THE REPORTER __________ FROM…?

I have talked to no reporters. The only people I have spoken with is Mr. Davenport and then Art Bell last night, and then now you guys. I'm not going to talk to any of them. No, I'm not going to talk to newspapers or reporters. I had a bad deal with them a long time ago when I was a detective anyway, and of course when they say, “This is all off the record.”, and you see it (inaudible), you say, “No, screw that noise.” I don't like publicity anyway, so I'm not talking to them.

THIS CONCLUDES THE INTERVIEW.


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