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Author Topic:   Attn Taldren: The Gorn Issue
Cocomoe
Ensign
posted 09-09-2001 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cocomoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Seems the powers want the Gorn out of the game. So remove them, and be done with it.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-09-2001 01:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cocomoe:

Seems the powers want the Gorn out of the game. So remove them, and be done with it.

What is all this whining? The Gorn are fine. They're the only race besides the ISC that have REARWARD FIRING PLASMA for crying out loud...and with the LP/RP arcs repaired from their earlier problems in SFC1, the Gorn plasma ballet is easier than ever, and the Gorn heavies can starcastle like nobody's business. Only the ISC are superior in that regard (but then, the ISC are just plain better than everyone, since their whole race concept was "we studied the weaknesses of everyone else's ships, and only THEN designed our own to exploit them.")

I hate to repeat this, since it's been said so often before: Learn Tactics!

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Ufo
Ensign
posted 09-09-2001 04:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ufo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep thahs why there are so many sl gorn fleets they have the best tactics

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Cocomoe
Ensign
posted 09-09-2001 11:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cocomoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep UFO, alot of tatics to be had in the Gorn SL fleets.

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GT-Peetie_Two
Ensign
posted 09-10-2001 05:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GT-Peetie_Two     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can only speak to Gorn v. Hydran engagements. They are seriously outclassed here due to their slower speed (compared to SFC1) and the scarce implementation of the Plasma D. The Gorns need a shot in the arm. I hope the lowered Plasma S costs will do it, but I doubt it's enough.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-10-2001 06:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, the D plasma pretty much eliminates the Hydran fighter threat if you can get them on the way in.

The D should have got it's offensive capability built in, tho!

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-11-2001 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ufo:
Yep thahs why there are so many sl gorn fleets they have the best tactics

It's the PLAYERS that need the tactics, not the Gorn ships themselves.

OK...Here's a multiple choice question for you to test your knowledge of Gorn tactics.

Let's say you're in a Gorn BCH. Your foe is in a high-speed Rommie ship. Do you:

A) Turn off your forward plasma for extra power so you can travel at high speed and ballet with your LP/RP plasmas.
B) Come to a stop and Starcastle, relying on weasels to save you.
C) Charge the enemy at maximum speed while still charging your plasmas.
D) Turn off all your plasmas and phaser-boat.

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Sethan
Ensign
posted 09-11-2001 08:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sethan   Click Here to Email Sethan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
It's the PLAYERS that need the tactics, not the Gorn ships themselves.

OK...Here's a multiple choice question for you to test your knowledge of Gorn tactics.

Let's say you're in a Gorn BCH. Your foe is in a high-speed Rommie ship. Do you:

A) Turn off your forward plasma for extra power so you can travel at high speed and ballet with your LP/RP plasmas.
B) Come to a stop and Starcastle, relying on weasels to save you.
C) Charge the enemy at maximum speed while still charging your plasmas.
D) Turn off all your plasmas and phaser-boat.


Trick question - there is only one 'high-speed Rommie ship' in the same league as a BCH - the R-KHK. If the KHK is flown well, the only intelligent thing the G-BCH can do is choice E) disengage.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-11-2001 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So you think the KHK can get within range 6 of a balet-ing BCH going speed 31 (He has to be that close for his PL-R to do even one point of damage) without eating some plasma torps from the LP/RP tubes and some F torps as well? The BCH can fire more phaser 1s to the rear quadrants than the KHK can fire to the front.

Sure, the BCH will have to tune down the LP/RP heavy torps to go speed 31, but if the KHK is trying to get into plasma R range, that's not a problem. Sure, the KHK can try to pin the BCH against a map edge, but it's not always easy.

And as everyone knows, the KHK is an EXCEPTIONAL ship for it's size and BPV. Of course, it pays a BPV penalty since it doesn't take shock damage from firing the R torpedo.

My point is that the battle is WINNABLE by the Gorn. The only option is NOT retreat. Running and ballet yes, leaving the map, no.

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Godzookie
Ensign
posted 09-11-2001 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Godzookie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
It's the PLAYERS that need the tactics, not the Gorn ships themselves.

OK...Here's a multiple choice question for you to test your knowledge of Gorn tactics.

Let's say you're in a Gorn BCH. Your foe is in a high-speed Rommie ship. Do you:

A) Turn off your forward plasma for extra power so you can travel at high speed and ballet with your LP/RP plasmas.



Answer. No. Reason: No sane Rommie is gonna chase a plasma ship. No sane captain period. So if they do not chase, you will be in for a long boreing flight simulation. Also if you leave your forward heavies off in an emergency you will not be able to load them fast enough to get you out of trouble.

quote:


B) Come to a stop and Starcastle, relying on weasels to save you.

Answer. No. Reason: If you are a Starcastling Plasma ship vs. another Plasma ship you are a sitting duck. He will outrun your plasmas while you eat his when your out of WW's. A suicide manuver if the other guy knows what he is doing.

quote:


C) Charge the enemy at maximum speed while still charging your plasmas.

Answer. No. Reason: You'll never catch a high speed rommie ship in a BCH, it is too power hungry. Even if you do your Plasmas are nearly useless against a fast moving target heading away from you.

quote:


D) Turn off all your plasmas and phaser-boat.


Correct answer... but then how much fun is that really? Rommmies and Gorn LIKE to throw plasmas at each other...

So do I need to learn tactics? Besides, the problem arrises not so much with Rommies vs Gorn as we both use the Plasma Torp for Heavies... It comes from fighting the ISC and non-traditional enemies. Unfortunatly we are forced to fight non-traditional enemies from DV2 server set-ups and in SL type matches. The ISC are designed as plasma killing ships.

I love fighting Rommies personally cause it is the only enemy we were really designed to fight. But to stay competitive against the other races we need some help.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-11-2001 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, that's one of the reasons that so many people who know SFB have mentioned Plasma Bolts.

Sure, they don't hit often, but it gives the plasma races much needed direct fire capability against speedy opponents. If plasma bolts were available, you would start to see more caution about getting inside range 10 of a plasma ship than you do now.

(For those who still don't know what a P.B. is, it's taking a fully armed (normal, not enveloping or shotgunned) plasma, and exploding it in the plasma tube (Contained by force fields, so it doesn't damage the firing ship, firing a blast of plasma at the target as a direct fire weapon. The bolt does half the damage the plasma would have done if it had moved distance equal to the current range The chart:

Range | To Hit| R | S | G | F
00-05 | 67% | 25 | 15 | 10 | 10
06-10 | 50% | 25 | 15 | 10 | 08
11-12 | 33% | 18 | 11 | 08 | 05
13-14 | 33% | 18 | 11 | 08 | 03
15-15 | 33% | 18 | 11 | 08 | 01
16-18 | 33% | 13 | 08 | 05 | 00
19-19 | 33% | 13 | 08 | 03 | 00
20-20 | 33% | 13 | 08 | 01 | 00
21-23 | 17% | 10 | 05 | 00 | 00
24-24 | 17% | 10 | 03 | 00 | 00
25-25 | 17% | 10 | 01 | 00 | 00
26-28 | 17% | 05 | 00 | 00 | 00
29-29 | 17% | 03 | 00 | 00 | 00
30-30 | 17% | 01 | 00 | 00 | 00

Note that it's a bit better than the Photon chart, but not by much, and that like a disruptor, the damage falls off at range. Plasma bolts are primarily for use against fast targets and those not easily hit by normal torps (Andromedans, for example)

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Marcus Smythe
Ensign
posted 09-12-2001 02:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcus Smythe   Click Here to Email Marcus Smythe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Red, theyll never code Bolts. If they couldnt code the 1 I torp per turn at CapShips, if they could code Offensive Plas-D, theyll never code Bolts.

Ill admit my concern is the ISC. Even with the BPV bump, their still one of the 'Big Three' (perhaps big 4, with the Lyrans added, but only time will tell on that) Any relief that gets the Gorn competitive will make the Romulans VERY competitve, and the ISC just plain silly.

All of that being said, I think a bit more expirimentation with holding costs might be doable.

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Marcus Smythe
Ensign
posted 09-12-2001 02:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcus Smythe   Click Here to Email Marcus Smythe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by K'tujHegh:
I don't think that half a point of power will help the Gorn much.... lol.

I think their biggest problem is that on many of their ships... their PLASMA arcs suck and their phaser arcs (while great all around) don't all concentrations of fire.

Also, their two greatest enemies have two very effective weapons against them:

1) PPD - medium to long range direct fire weapon which the Gorn currently have NO defense against (soon EM may help).

2) Cloak - Romulan cloak allows it to absorb plasma for greatly reduced damage. This is more evident in early and early middle play than late era.

And both the ISC and Romulans have more POWER in their comparible ships.

G-BCH - 41 power
R-NHK - 42 power
I-CCY - 44 power!

(BTW, they both get these variants MUCH earlier than the Gorn BCH.)



And we wont mention that the NHK is paying less to hold heavies and the ISC... well, 2 PPDs. Nuff said.

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GT-Peetie_Two
Ensign
posted 09-12-2001 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GT-Peetie_Two     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
Actually, the D plasma pretty much eliminates the Hydran fighter threat if you can get them on the way in.

The D should have got it's offensive capability built in, tho!



Getting the fighters on the way in is very difficult against an experienced opponent. Also, how many ships do you see that carry the Plasma D? It isn't going to help 95% of Gorn ships. The only defense against fighters is speed and getting out of range. For that to happen, the holding cost needs to come down.

[This message has been edited by GT-Peetie_Two (edited 09-12-2001).]

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Ufo
Ensign
posted 09-12-2001 04:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ufo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Redwood elf its d now play a klingon or isc or mirak and see what happens
As you seem very good at playing as a gorn maybe you would like to share some insights with me on gspy Its not just gorn that have said they are weak everyone has (well all most)but please do one thing for me join a gorn sl fleet and let me know how well you do aganst non gorn fleets

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Cocomoe
Ensign
posted 09-12-2001 09:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cocomoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Ditto, I would love to learn your skills. How you manage such a high win with Gorn.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 04:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ufo:
Redwood elf its d now play a klingon or isc or mirak and see what happens
As you seem very good at playing as a gorn maybe you would like to share some insights with me on gspy Its not just gorn that have said they are weak everyone has (well all most)but please do one thing for me join a gorn sl fleet and let me know how well you do aganst non gorn fleets

You only THINK you're being funny. From what I saw, even during SFC1, there weren't enough players in standard multiplayer who were patient enough to play Gorn correctly. That, and people setting game speed at 11 so they could turn a tactical game into an arcade video game robs the Gorns of a lot of their advantages. Gorn pilots need to watch a lot of things, all at once, to be successful in online play.

Nevertheless, I DID succeed in creaming quite a few players who sneered when they saw me flying a Gorn ship in SFC1.

And the ISC are just plain tough. ANY race has trouble with them...by design.

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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GT-Peetie_Two
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 05:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GT-Peetie_Two     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hopefully you're not basing all of your conclusions in this thread on your experience in SFC1. I think that every agrees that the Gorns were very powerful back then. This is SFC2 with enemy fighters, massive waves of drones, and sky high holding costs for plasma. It's a different game althogether.

If I'm wrong, and you do play SFC2 as a Gorn, do you notice a big change? Thanks!

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 07:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Who WOULDN'T notice a change...Don't scoff at those Gorn PFs, tho.

A half dozen Mirakzinti ships with fast drones are hard for ANYBODY without ADDs to beat easily. Keep in mind that Gorn and Kzinti almost never met in historical scenarios, being on opposite sides of the Freds.

Sure, Drones kick rear. But the Gorns have improved too. The LP/RP problem has been fixed, and that's a major one (not for the BCH, which, I believe, actually DOES have FAL and FAR plasma instead of LP/RP, but for many other ships)

Fixing the LP/RP plasmas weakened the Gorn on offence (offensively they were too strong anyway), but strengthened them on defense.

You just have to face it...Plasma races "don't do drones." It's built in. Your only hope against massive (fast) drone waves is to hope you can time your Weasels right, use your mines wisely, and if you know your opponent is going to be a dronmonger, bring ships that DO have plasma D's.

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Malacoda
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 07:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malacoda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I can't speak for Redwood, but I play Gorn is SL a lot. I win, too. The trick is to remeber that plasmas are not on your ships to do damage. They are there to set up your phasers, and to capitalise on enemy mistakes.

If someone wants to close, let 'em. Untill someone fixes the shuttle launch rate, fire a enough pseudoes to force a weasel, tractor him and smash him. Keep enough phasers back to shoot down as many drones as he can fire. After you grab him, bring the tractor energy up one level at a time. At this point, he is dead. Normaly, opponents will not attack like this. If they do, punish them.

More likely is a dance. Here you goal is to feature your phasers. You can spread his shots over all your shields, because you are as dangerous from the rear as from anywhere other than direct centreline. He, however, HAS to consitently show you his three rear shields, and often plasma can force him to choose between a plasma hit and you getting a shot at his direct rear. You use plasma as a threat, and to force him to move the way you want him to, to set up your shot. It is NOT your primary weapon. Your phasers are well-suited to this task. They are long range, very well distributed, and at least equal to those of others, despite what some will tell you.
Neither are BPVs too high, despite what some will tell you. (Excpet for the ships that had PF mech-links! Either give these ships the PFs or drop the BPV! They are paying for a system they don't get to use! BTW, this appiles to some non-gorns as well. )
Gorns are *fine*, mostly. The problem is that they fly different from the way people want to fly them. At the moment, plasma avoidance tactics are more widely known than plasma USE. Once people begin to use this type of thing, the problem will almost go away. When we drop holding costs back the way they should be, the problem WILL go away.

Just to adress people inevitable responce to the holding cost thing, the ships that are already Uber are not really made any less Uber with super holding costs. The KHK can still fly at speed 31 with plasma charging. Those four or five points of power will not make it any worse than it already is, and the Gorns could USE that power. This will fix the problem.

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Godzookie
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Godzookie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what's your guys win percentages and what's your experience level in SL?

Yes, the Anchor can work... against newbies. Against experienced players you'll be lucky if they even let you get close enough to anchor them. Even if you do anchor them most skilled players against an anchor threat will run a repel of 3. If it is a droner you might even anchor each other and then the Gorn is in trouble...

And if you are flying a ship with only 1 Torp... forget it.

Starcastling can work but more times than not just results in a stalemate. Against another plasma chucker you might as well self destruct.

Plasma ballet is a good option and the one I use the most... problem is that it only works on ships with at least 2 plasma torps... preferably 3 or more.

Using your plasmas to set up phaser shots on the enemies rear shields can also work but tends to make the matches run into the 2 hour + time frame if your opponent is as pacient as you are.

Phaserboating is the best tactic but is no fun... why even have plasmas if you are just gonna phaserboat.

You 2 say Gorn are fine...I say they are not fine.

1st) They need more CA class variants
2nd) More plasma D ships without removing the offensive capabilities of the ships. Right now plasma D armed ships have almost no heavy firepower. Why is that? AMD armed warships do not have a loss of firepower.
3rd) Give the casual PF tenders like the BCH their PF's back.
4th) PF Tenders should carry 6 PF's not 4.
5th) Not that I expect to see this in the near future but give us the ability to bolt our plasmas to be able to get hits on fast moving targets.

Give me the 1st 4 items and the Gorn will be fine. Give me the 5th Item and the Gorn will be compleate.

Yes we are not designed to fight against the western powers but in SL and in most custom DV2 servers we are forced to.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 10:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Godzookie:
what's your guys win percentages and what's your experience level in SL?

What is this obsession so many people have with SL experience levels? I have played this game since before the internet existed, in ALL it's forms, so I KNOW how to play the Gorn, and I'm TELLING you that the Gorn aren't as messed up as people say they are? Would my having some silly ranking in a ladder tournament change the game somehow?

I think not.

Think outside the SL box.

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Godzookie
Ensign
posted 09-13-2001 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Godzookie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I have played Gorn since about 1980... so what does that tell us?

Playing Gorn in SFB, playing Gorn in SFC1 and playing Gorn is SFC2 are 3 compleatly diffrent beasts. SFB play does not translate into SFC play. You will have a better grasp of the game but that is all.

The reason I ask you SL exp level is that Gorn ships are easy when fighting against the AI and Newbies... extreamly tough to win with vs more skilled opponents.

Yes the Gorn can win, but they have been neutered in the transition from SFB to the point of noone flying them anymore.

I think the Gorn are great but I do know they need the help I listed above.

EDIT: Forgot to ask, when did you 2 start playing in SL? I was in a DOW, they are Feds now, and the only other 2 Gorn fleets were KEG and GE. Both I believe are now gone. Is there a new Gorn SL fleet?

[This message has been edited by Godzookie (edited 09-14-2001).]

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Cocomoe
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 06:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Cocomoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

I was GA myself. And seeing what has happened to the Gorn it reall is tuff to play against a similarly skilled opponent.

You require almost luck to win.

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Sethan
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 07:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sethan   Click Here to Email Sethan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
So you think the KHK can get within range 6 of a balet-ing BCH going speed 31 (He has to be that close for his PL-R to do even one point of damage) without eating some plasma torps from the LP/RP tubes and some F torps as well? The BCH can fire more phaser 1s to the rear quadrants than the KHK can fire to the front.

You are assuming the KHK is chasing the BCH. No plasma player chases a plasma ship that can fire plasma to the rear. If I am not chasing the G-BCH, but instead circling or running parallel, the game changes - particularly since the KHK has power for ECM and shield reinforcement at speed 31 - and the G-BCH can not even arm all its plasma at that speed. Sure - the BCH has more phasers - but where is it getting the power to fire them while moving at 31?

quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
My point is that the battle is WINNABLE by the Gorn. The only option is NOT retreat. Running and ballet yes, leaving the map, no.

It depends on who you are up against, like most battles - as you said, the KHK is an exceptional ship. It overmatches the BCH, and that means that (given equal players), the BCH should lose every time.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was in a SL fleet (One of the early "pirate" ones in SFC1, as a Gorn pilot who occasionally would bring a Fred CFS or CFS+ in team matches, just for spice) for about a week. I got sick of the nitpicking of opponents who kept insisting on getting exactly enough points for a SPZ or KHK, or exactly one point short of one of those two.

I blew up so many SPZ with Gorn it isn't even funny. (The SPZ has no choice but to try to get close with all those silly F plasmas...I never COULD see why so many people thought the SPZ was such a hot boat.)

I was one of the pioneers of the "Sink the Bismarck" type battle (one BB against 5 other players with CA/CLs) and the Gorn BB was my favorite (Who doesn't LOVE rear firing heavy plasmas?)

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 07:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Gorn have to be played like Crocodiles. Bide your time and wait for your opponent to make an error, then rip his arm off.

If your opponent doesn't make an error, you can still wear his defenses down with phaser fire and eventually get through. With players of equal skill in (as mentioneed above) KHK VS Heavy BC/DN battles, the Gorn has more shields and phasers, while the KHK can turn faster and can actually arm a plasma R while chasing you. But if he gets impatient and tries to slip inside that plasma R's effective range, he'll have to turn towards you inside range 10, and that would give you a target for YOUR plasma. If he doesn't get impatient, it turns into a phaser duel, which the Gorn has an edge in.

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Sethan
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 07:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Sethan   Click Here to Email Sethan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
If he doesn't get impatient, it turns into a phaser duel, which the Gorn has an edge in.

Against any normal Romulan ship, I would agree. The KHK is not a normal Romulan ship.

The Gorn BCH has more phasers - but it cannot power them at speed 31 without downgrading plasma. It cannot run ECM/ECCM at that speed unless it turns off plasma.

If I see a Gorn BCH running at speed 31, firing phasers, and running ECM - I'll know he has turned off his heavy plasma to do it - and that's when I'll close for the R-torp shot (if I can get it). I'll take a pair of F-torps in exchange for an R, 2 S, and 2 F.

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alfman77
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 09:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for alfman77   Click Here to Email alfman77     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you want to help the Gorn do the following:

Eliminate the R-KHK, R-SUA, and the I-CCZ.

Gorn fixed!

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Captain Alfman77 commanding the GCS Rook (G-CCX)

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-14-2001 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sethan:
Against any normal Romulan ship, I would agree. The KHK is not a normal Romulan ship.

The Gorn BCH has more phasers - but it cannot power them at speed 31 without downgrading plasma. It cannot run ECM/ECCM at that speed unless it turns off plasma.

If I see a Gorn BCH running at speed 31, firing phasers, and running ECM - I'll know he has turned off his heavy plasma to do it - and that's when I'll close for the R-torp shot (if I can get it). I'll take a pair of F-torps in exchange for an R, 2 S, and 2 F.


A pair? Try TWO pair, pal...it only costs 2 points to hold the LP/RP torps in F mode. And if you think you're getting to plasma F range (3 for even 1 point of damage at speed 31) without having a shield go down and suffering hit and runs on all your heavy torp launchers, you've got another think coming.

(Didn't someone here say that NO good plasma pilot would try to get that close?)

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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GE-FreddiePhuzz
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posted 09-15-2001 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for GE-FreddiePhuzz   Click Here to Email GE-FreddiePhuzz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So I am confused Redwood.. All your posts seem to refer to your SFB and SFC1 experience. That really does not apply to this thread as we are talking about SFC2 and SFC:OP. SL is "THE" standard by which players have been assessed. When SFC1 was released SL set up a tournament site for people to be come involved in and a community in which to learn. Interplay only made a good game... SL brought players togehter for games and tactics which made the game great. That is why so many people ask about your SL experience. Also.. What SL fleet were you in.. are you that embaressed to say?? I was in GE (Guardians Errant) the oldest gorn fleet since the begining of SFC1. Yes Gorns were WAY too powerful in the original release but over the course of a few patches the game shaped up and by the 1.03 patch, the game was very well balanced. There was a decent selection of ships at ever BPV to play and they were all about equally matched. Now.. SFC2 came along and somebody over there at Taldren decided that the gorn needed "FIXIN' and smacked them hard. not only did all the bugs get fixed as far as trickle load and fast load but all the holding costs were raised too. Like I have alway said, some of the SL players should have been invited to help balance SFC2. I am sure the inner circle guys know SFB well but I would bet I could put together a group of sfc2 SL players that most of the inner circle could not even touch. I have always wondered, since the inner circle is always touted as the gameplay/baance testers, who is the GORN ace for the inner circle?? I have seen the credits list and I don't recognize anybody on the list as a gorn pilot. Hell the few i do recognize fly fed. i think you need to wake up and smell what you are shoveling. Its real easy to post in the forums that the gorns are just fine but I think the better option would be for you to log on some night here and show us some of your Gorn piloting skills. So many people are posting about how well off the gorns are... Get your asses on line and prove it. Your words mean nothing unless you back them with action. Just let me know what gorn ship you wanna fly and I am sure I can find an appropriatly skilled pilot to fly a game against you. lets try a few games.. 100, 120 ,140, etc.. see how the gorn fair against teh different races. You all can throw that "Historical Battles" shit out the window too. this is a video game that which most player were not even born when the game it was based on was created so they have no understanding about the imaginary, made up "Historical Battles". they just want to be able to log on and play a fun game vs other people online and have some sort of chance of winning. I guess the botto line is if you are not going to make ALL the races competative against ALL the other races then install filters so that certain races cannot play each other or take some of them out of the game all together. I see a lot of time wasted coding new races in to SFC2 and the original 6 are still WAY screwed up.

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System
PII-350
128megs Ram
Hercules 3D Prophet IIMX 64MB (GeForce2)
Philips Seismic Edge Sound Card
Road Runner Cable Modem (Motorola SURFboard)
DirectX8.0a
Windows 98 4.10.1998
SFC
SFC2 ver 2.0.0.6( properties of starfleeet2.exe still shows 1.0.0.2)
SFC:OP
Leinenkugel's Honeyweise

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-15-2001 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all, there ARE no "new" races in SFC2 or OP. All the current races have been around since before 1980, with the sole expeption of the ISC, which is STILL pre-1990.

And if you really want to know, I just happen to BE an IC member, who thinks the Gorn are just fine when played correctly.

It's been so long since I bothered with SL, I can't even remember what fleet I was in...show me a list of fleets, and if it's still around, I'll recognise it. The SL website doesn't seem to be coming up. If the league can't even keep itself up on a website, It can't be that big a deal anymore...

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Mournblade
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posted 09-15-2001 12:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mournblade   Click Here to Email Mournblade     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
elf the gorn just want free plasma. They would want it to go back to the unbalanced sfc1. If thats what u want go back to sfc1 and give it a rest

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GE-FreddiePhuzz
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posted 09-15-2001 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for GE-FreddiePhuzz   Click Here to Email GE-FreddiePhuzz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Redwood Elf:
First of all, there ARE no "new" races in SFC2 or OP. All the current races have been around since before 1980, with the sole expeption of the ISC, which is STILL pre-1990.

And if you really want to know, I just happen to BE an IC member, who thinks the Gorn are just fine when played correctly.

It's been so long since I bothered with SL, I can't even remember what fleet I was in...show me a list of fleets, and if it's still around, I'll recognise it. The SL website doesn't seem to be coming up. If the league can't even keep itself up on a website, It can't be that big a deal anymore...


See.. Here is the biggest problem.. SFC2 does have 2 new races, the ISC and the Mirak. Now those races have been around a long time in SFB (still searching for any pre 80 reference of the MIrak) but are new to SFC. I know you are an IC person Red (hence my questions as to the gorn ace in the IC that you did not answer) I think you need to get on board with the rest of the IC and Taldren if you are gonna keep posting. Almost all the Taldren reps and IC people that I have seen post on this board have acknowledged, at one time or another, the fact that this game is NOT SFB... it is based on SFB but due to real time play vs. turn based many components do not translate well. You seem to be holding to the opposite (i.e. your statement about races not being new) that this game has been around for quite a while and not much is new. Youd did not by the way answer or address any of my questions so what exactly was the purpose of your response? Maybe you should call SFC Shadow to come help you.. I do not agree with all his opinions but he does address the issues at hand and is quite well spoken (from previous posts). As far as SL is concerned they still are around and are still very active to my knowledge. Much more active than any of the dynaverse servers I have seen and definitly much more consistant as far as stability. Lets take a poll and see who had more problems.. the SL players that lost SL for a couple of weeks or the Dynaverse players(need more be said?)

Mournblade.. Don't be such an off the cuff dumb-ass. The gorn do not want free plasma, we just want a fair game. It seems that some over jelous programmers have taken the gorn to the brink of extinction with SFC2 and SFC:OP. SFC2 has the higher holding costs which level the roms quite well but they have extra power on a lot of their ship for the cloak. And, As far as SFC1 is concerned, By the 1.03 patch the game was very well balanced. Instead of drawing conclusions ask around to the people who have played for a long time and played well.

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System
PII-350
128megs Ram
Hercules 3D Prophet IIMX 64MB (GeForce2)
Philips Seismic Edge Sound Card
Road Runner Cable Modem (Motorola SURFboard)
DirectX8.0a
Windows 98 4.10.1998
SFC
SFC2 ver 2.0.0.6( properties of starfleeet2.exe still shows 1.0.0.2)
SFC:OP
Leinenkugel's Honeyweise

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Marcus Smythe
Ensign
posted 09-15-2001 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Marcus Smythe   Click Here to Email Marcus Smythe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Redwood.. im certain that Sassix, Pegasus, and some other veteran Gorns would love to learn your secrets... perhaps you could schedule a clinic?

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-16-2001 12:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If what I've seen on GS lately is any indication, my "secret" is just plain common sense...if you're playing in Advanced, don't expect a Gorn DN to be able to beat an X ship. (In fact, don't expect ANY DN to beat an X ship) Similarly, if you're in KHK territory, don't expect to be able to starcastle...or at least not for long.

Play to the Gorn's strengths, not their weaknesses. Keep your plasma on a setting where they won't impede your movement if you're fighting high speed plasma boats. And, like ALL races, be really careful around ISC ships with PPDs.

It sounds to me like you're judging the entire Gorn fleet by a few specific BPV values where other fleets have a slightly better ship selection.

Get over it. Adapt. If you really, honestly can't win with Gorn in OP, try flying Wyldfire cartel or Prime for a change of pace. Maybe engine doubling has what you're looking for...the ability to charge enveloping plasma torpedos and fly at speed 31 (for a while anyway)

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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Ssazzix-GE
Ensign
posted 09-16-2001 09:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ssazzix-GE   Click Here to Email Ssazzix-GE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, You want to fix the gorn give them what the manual says they have and what the original game intended all plasma users to have.

Manual says -- Gorn ships have more and better phasors than any in their respective calss. --- FALSE (we almost exactly the same as all other races)

Manual says -- Gorn ships are like the race tough and can take more damage than most in there class. -- FALSE AGAIN.

Manual Says -- Gorn ships have better shields than most in there class -- YET AGAIN FALSE.

If those three things would be done as the manual says, the Gorn would be a force to be reckoned with.

Point in case, a smart rom or ISC will not come anywhere near a good gorn pilot. He will either pick you apart from range or just out distance you and drop plasma in your face as you try and close. Been there done that!!!

You want to make Gorn ships worthy of combat, give them what all the rules and manuals say we have.

1) Extra shielding -- ie, more than any other ship in it's class.

2) Extra armor or hull boxes, again as the rules say we have.

3) Give us a few more phasors to the fore and aft.

As a veteran Gorn pilot I have seen it over and over again. Gorn ships are supposed to be among the most feared in the game. Especially at close range, as the game currently sets we have heavy wpns only once every three turns. Once those are gone our phasors are the same as theirs. So it becomes a close range slugging match at which point his heavy wpns charge faster than ours. YOU DO THE MATH!!!

The gorn are suppose to be lumbering giants that can take anything you got to offer and still have enough left to take you out. Truth is, we are indeed among the slowest races in the game but it takes the same damage to kill us as anyone else.

You want the Gorn fixed give us what the manual states we have. Make us what we are supposed to be. We are supposed to be able to take more of a punch than anyone but the hydrans. Truth is the Federation has the toughest hulls in the game and the extra wpns to absorb the damage.

Give the Gorn what the manual says we have and what we should have. You would see a dramatic differance in the way they are flown and how they fly.

Ssazzix

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Malacoda
Ensign
posted 09-16-2001 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Malacoda     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well...I hate to disagree with the ledgendary Ssazzix, but...

Do all that, and you WOULD see a difference in the way Gorns are flown. They would be easy. The Gorn CAN compete with a dancer. The phasers are there to provide long-range weaponry. At the moment, the slightly inferior damage-produceing ability of Gorn phaser-one volleys compapared to disruptors is balanced out by the ability of the Gorns to almost gaurantee a shot at the rear shields of a saber dancer due to the deterence force of plasma. Give the Gorn more phasers, and they will be devastateing when played corrrectly. As it is, they are *balanced* when played correctly.

The flavor text in the manual is irrelevant. It's innacurate about most things, because it's very simplistic about a coplex game. We should bring the text in line with the game, not vice-versa.

By the way, welcome back, Ssazzix.

[This message has been edited by Malacoda (edited 09-16-2001).]

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Godzookie
Ensign
posted 09-16-2001 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Godzookie     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade:
elf the gorn just want free plasma. They would want it to go back to the unbalanced sfc1. If thats what u want go back to sfc1 and give it a rest

Take a look at my list of what I as a Gorn commander wish to see fixed for the Gorn. Now show me my request for "free plasma". Read what is being said before making a comment like that. Thank you.

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Redwood Elf
Ensign
posted 09-16-2001 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Redwood Elf   Click Here to Email Redwood Elf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Malacoda:
Well...I hate to disagree with the ledgendary Ssazzix, but...

Do all that, and you WOULD see a difference in the way Gorns are flown. They would be easy. The Gorn CAN compete with a dancer. The phasers are there to provide long-range weaponry. At the moment, the slightly inferior damage-produceing ability of Gorn phaser-one volleys compapared to disruptors is balanced out by the ability of the Gorns to almost gaurantee a shot at the rear shields of a saber dancer due to the deterence force of plasma. Give the Gorn more phasers, and they will be devastateing when played corrrectly. As it is, they are *balanced* when played correctly.

The flavor text in the manual is irrelevant. It's innacurate about most things, because it's very simplistic about a coplex game. We should bring the text in line with the game, not vice-versa.

By the way, welcome back, Ssazzix.


The bottom line, I think, is that some people want a Gorn KHK. I designed just such a ship in an early mod for SFC1...it was a "pocket Battleship" based off the BCH hull...It had two plasma Rs with LF/L and RF/R arcs (yes, it was designed to be able to ballet with plasma Rs!), 2 each LS/RS plasma Fs, and 2 fewer phaser 1s (Had to rip them out to get the extra LS/RS plasma Fs in the same hull as a BCH), as well as 4 extra engine boxes, and +5 shield boxes all around.

Oh, yeah...these guys don't want a trade-off...so doubtless they would insist that you would have to double the phasers instead of actually taking some out....

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___Elf of the Redwoods, Sonoma valley, Breakfast Cereal Country___
"Darph Bobo! I THOUGHT I smelled Vasaline..."

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