FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum"
[ Last | Latest Posts | Latest Articles | Self Search | Add Bookmark | Post | Abuse | Help! ]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Leading Mexican Journalist: “Mexico is recovering lost territories via immigration"

Foreign Affairs News Keywords: ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION
Source: El Imparcial
Published: July 4, 2001 Author: EFE
Posted on 08/11/2001 14:59:30 PDT by FreedomSurge

Caracas, 3 July 2001

(EFE). - The Mexican writer Elena Poniatowska asserted today that Mexico is at this moment recovering territories it lost in the past to the United States thanks to emigration.

" The common people - the poor, the dirty, the lice ridden, the cockroaches are advancing on the United States, a country that needs to speak Spanish because it has 33.5 million Hispanics who are imposing their culture ", affirmed Poniatowska while unveiling her new novel " La piel del cielo" in Caracas.

The writer said that the pessimistic vision held by the late Mexican writer Octavio Paz on the Mexican as “loser", is, in her opinion, a relic of the past and today "Mexico is recovering the territories yielded to the United States by means of migratory tactics”.

"Perhaps, Octavio Paz could not foresee this phenomenon. But, it fills me full of joy, because the Hispanics can have an ever greater influence all the way from Patagonia to Alaska ", she said.

She also talked about the boom in Indian rights as a result of the fight maintained for many years by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN) and by " sub-commander Marcos " in particular. " Thanks to ' Marcos' Indian rights is again up for discussion in Latin American", she maintained when presenting her literary work to la Corporación Andina de Fomento (CAF). Her novel won the “Alfaguara de Novela 2001” prize.

Poniatowska was born in Paris in 1933 of Polish origin and has lived in Mexico from the age of nine. She doubted the Partido Revolucionario Institucional (PRI) would have allowed (because they would have been too terrified by the Zapatistas) the march from Chiapas to the capital which was authorized by President Vicente Fox last March. " Now the Zapatistas have, thanks to that march, great support of the students, the middle-class and the lower classes, but not of the bankers ", she said. "Allowing the march was to the credit of Fox, but not his marriage yesterday, because I do not like that a million dollars was spent to establish a love nest with Martha Sahagún, his spokeswoman and now his wife ", affirmed Poniatowska.

She confessed that in her novel she tried to show, on the one hand, the deficiencies of her country in taking care of the scientific and cultural activities, and on the other hand, in denouncing the flight of brains to the well equipped universities in the United States, which becomes " a drama for Mexico”.

On Latin America, the writer said, "corruption is a lead weight on the region " and added that, “the Latin American people do not have the leaders they deserve".

Poniatowska, has presented her novel in sixteen countries of Latin America since the novel winning the Alfaguara prize this past March over 600 competing works. She assured her audience that she has noticed few differences between Bolivians and Mexicans, or between an Argentinean and a Venezuelan.

She has valued tremendously her profession as a journalist, which began at " the Excelsior " of Mexico City in the 1950’s and considered journalism "a lesson in humility".

She added that newspaper work has allowed her to know and to interview intellectuals and artists like Alfonso Reyes, Dolores del Rio, Maria Felix, David Alfaro Siquieros, Diego Rivera, Luis Bunuel and Juan Rulfojul


The translation is mine. A couple of points :

1 Posted on 08/11/2001 14:59:30 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | Top | Last ]


To: Mamzelle, Esjay, Rudeboy666

ping

2 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:01:16 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: Flamefront, freedomnews, sarcasm, Red Face,Maalaea,MileHi,Bikers4Bush,Jefferson Adams, abigail2, UnB

ping

3 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:02:30 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | Top | Last ]


To: Swampfox98, homer_say_doh,JMS, boris,Big Meanie, glock rocks, luvzhottea, John_Kavanagh, stanz, JR_D

ping

4 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:03:45 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | Top | Last ]


To: Shropster,Ticonderoga,Gecko,slingshot,Veronica,Arator,Baron Stein,Derville, Alberta's Child, ctdonat

ping

5 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:05:48 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: t-shirt,MissAmerican Pie,neutrino,madrussian, Pelham, Cincinatus' Wife, Impeach the Boy,medusa,Ragti

ping

6 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:07:25 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: 101viking,paul2764,WarHawk42,sarcasm,RLK, Joe Hadenuf, dennisw, Franklin1776, Deporter,Carol Hu-Tex,

ping

7 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:08:20 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

" The common people - the poor, the dirty, the lice ridden, the cockroaches are advancing on the United States, a country that needs to speak Spanish because it has 33.5 million Hispanics who are imposing their culture "

This is the reason that these people are leaving Mexico - not to fulfill the nationalistic fantasies of Mexico's privileged elite, but because they are treated like "cockroaches" by their own countrymen. No wonder Mexico cannot keep her own citizens from fleeing her borders - can you imagine a "respected" journalist from the United States referring to any citizen with such smug vitriol?

This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor. I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.

8 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:13:19 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Thank you for posting this. Her views are consistent with the economic policies and pronouncements of the Mexican government and the U.S. Democratic Party alike. So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome.

9 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:14:26 PDT by John Harris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

Another grand master plan that is going to backfire with the unexpected result that the immigrants will become americans.

10 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:20:52 PDT by The Kitten
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

"So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome."

Thank you for stating that! An immigrant who is capable of taking care of themselves, their families, and wants to be here is an asset - and will help offset the large number of parasitic people who have sucked the blood from this Republic without contributing anything in return. I'll trade you Alec Baldwin, Barbara Streisand, and the rest of the Hollywood elite for all these "common people" you can round up. That way Babs and Alec can get together with this elitist journalist and spew, while the rest of us "common people" build up this country and get some WORK done...

11 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:25:05 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"can you imagine a "respected" journalist from the United States referring to any citizen with such smug vitriol?"

Actually it is clearer in the Spanish but what she is saying is that it isn't the Mexican elite which is winning back the lost territories but the dreges of society. She is actually very proud of them.

12 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:28:17 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

Migration is human, and both sides of a fence can be a problem.

13 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:33:48 PDT by John Harris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"This is the reason that these people are leaving Mexico - not to fulfill the nationalistic fantasies of Mexico's privileged elite, but because they are treated like "cockroaches" by their own countrymen"

The average "ratero" rat person or Cucaracha "cockroach" who comes to the US is doing it for their own personal reasons not part of an overall design. I do not blame them for leaving. However, I do think the US has a right to choose who it lets into the country and I am pretty sure that the lowest clasess of Mexico are going to make our country stronger even if they work hard.

14 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:34:23 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: Patton@Bastogne, 537 Votes

ping

15 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:35:30 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

She may be proud of them, but she may be indulging in a LOT of wishful thinking. I have yet to meet any immigrant who's actually working for a living here who has expressed any of the viewpoints she's espousing. I have met moneyed community (read DEMOCRAT) leaders who spout a bunch of agitprop, but never yet heard it from a working immigrant. The vast majority of them who are here came to make a better life for their families, not to fulfill the wishes of some elitist nationalist faction. And they are very happy to be here, and DON'T want to go back to Mexico - or turn America into Mexico, either. Now, the racist/nationalist factions of La Raza/ Aztlan are a different story - but I don't see them making any significant inroads with these people. The immigrant who is here to work and become American is too busy trying to make money and learn English (albiet very slowly sometimes) to waste time with this drivel.

I'm not saying that the Mexican Nationalist/Extremist groups aren't dangerous to our Nation - I'm saying that if you think the vast majority of the average working Mexican immigrant has anything to do with them, you're wrong. Look to Democrats and Mexican Nationalist agitators, and get THEM out of the country instead...

16 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:39:24 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor"

I have met and talked to many Hispanics new to the US and one thing that I found very odd was that not one has said anything good about the United States, the US constitution, how happy they are to not be in Mexico or Guatamala or wherever. I have talked to Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and even Australians who did express good things about the US constitution and how lucky Americans are.

The new Hispanics have said they are happy to be making enough money to help their family and that they are happy in their work here. But that is different from saying anything positive about the US itself.

17 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:43:54 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

"Another grand master plan that is going to backfire with the unexpected result that the immigrants will become americans"

She is not claiming a master plan she is talking about the irony that it is the lowest of the low of Mexico who are finally winning against the United States. Octavio Paz whom she cites I believe was somewhat obsessed with the Gringos always winning against Mexico. His father was Emilio Zapata's (Mexican revolutionary) secretary.

I have severe reservations about assimulation if that is what you mean by "become americans".

18 Posted on 08/11/2001 15:50:36 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"Look to Democrats and Mexican Nationalist agitators, and get THEM out of the country instead"

Here! Here!

My experience is a little different than yours. A friend of mine who is a Democrat ran for Governor of my state. I have experience with the GOTV (get out the vote) on that side of the aisle. I will not underestimate and am frankly scared of the abilty of the Demos and the professional agitators ability to get out the vote of otherwise nonpolitical hispanics - citizens, legal workers and illegals.If Bush changes the status of illegals to legal guest workers of some sort the voting participation of the former illegals will soar and that vote will go 99% to the Demos.

19 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:01:34 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

"I have severe reservations about assimulation if that is what you mean by "become americans"."

Why they are all going to become god fearing constitutionalists with respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You know, like all of us already here.

20 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:06:26 PDT by gjenkins
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Mexico City's Excelsior columnist Carlos Loret De Mola, writing in an article entitled "The Great Invasion: Mexico Recovers Its Own" -- "A peaceful mass of people ... carries out slowly and patiently an unstoppable invasion, the most important in human history. You cannot give me a similar example of such a large migratory wave by an ant-like multitude, stubborn, unarmed, and carried on in the face of the most powerful and best armed nation on earth ... barbed-wire fences, nor aggressive border guards, nor campaigns, nor laws, nor police raids against the undocumented, have stopped this movement of the masses that is unprecedented in any part of the world."

21 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:10:41 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

btttttttt

22 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:11:30 PDT by dennisw
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Yep, sounds to assimilation to me, right boys...

23 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:13:49 PDT by DoughtyOne
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council -- "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over ... We are here to stay."

24 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:14:10 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge, Either/Or, Texasforever, Mercuria, Diotima, sinkspur

Great post, FreedomSurge. I wish I was as optimistic as your name.

25 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:14:20 PDT by Arator
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor. I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.

They ought to be fixing Mexico, not infesting the U.S. "Embraced this country"? Uh huh..... like leeches... while sending $ billions to Mexico. They need to be deported.

26 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:15:33 PDT by Maalaea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Did last line of 14 get transposed or something left out?

For my part, here in Alta California, the lower classes of Mexico Should be Mexico's problem.
Trained, skilled, law abiding immigrants are welcome, not crossers who would work but have not the skills nor attitude to work profitably.
Skilled and trained immigrants can be favored in LEGAL immigration policies that make PRACTICAL sense.
Letting anyone in who can pay the coyote, then hoping for the best is assinine.

27 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:20:54 PDT by norton
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

"You cannot give me a similar example of such a large migratory wave by an ant-like multitude, stubborn, unarmed, and carried on in the face of the most powerful and best armed nation on earth ... barbed-wire fences, nor aggressive border guards, nor campaigns, nor laws, nor police raids against the undocumented, have stopped this movement of the masses that is unprecedented in any part of the world"

What people don't understand about Fox and his calls for additional rights of illegals in the US is that he assumes (as does everyone in Mexico) that if the US didn't want illegals in the US we would have stopped the flow therefore if we don't stop the flow then we want them here and we owe them rights.

Another difference between the people in the US and Mexico is the Mexicans assume the US has made a big push to seal the border. In the US we view the border as being barely defended.

28 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:23:45 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | Top | Last ]


To: norton

Good catch I left a not out.

I am pretty sure that the lowest clasess of Mexico are not going to make our country stronger even if they work hard

29 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:25:48 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor. I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.


i came up in a small farming community that was
half populated by migrant workers during the
harvest, and a few stayed around. they were staunch
catholic in a white mormon area, but i must say
that their kids were respectful and hard working
as were their parents. their yards were immaculate.

in short, they were down home decent folk, if you
had the inclination to look past the racial / political
barriers. sadly, i can’t quite say the same today.
and i don’t think it’s the politics on their side of
the border that changed the equation.

this once was the land of opportunity. it is now widely
known to be the home of the handout. vote democrat. we
can sink this nation and it’s first world economy, yet.

if you think i need this, here: </rant>

funny how oklahomans and texans have despised
me for liking the mexicans i know. it’s personal.

(no, i married a sicilian catholic.)


30 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:27:15 PDT by glock rocks
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

Her analysis is self-contradictory; the same country that will "reconquer" the territories lost to the US is riven by incredible corruption and mistreatment of the Indian population by an elite dominated by the Europeans. Take a look at Mexican TV sometime; the actresses are blonder than your average Swedish model. Nope, the Mexican-Americans I've met are very loyal to the US and the last thing I think they'd want is to be ruled by the gang they left behind.

31 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:27:25 PDT by laconic
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets de Aztlan -- "Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die ... Through love of having children, we are going to take over."

32 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:29:15 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

" The common people - the poor, the dirty, the lice ridden, the cockroaches are advancing on the United States, a country that needs to speak Spanish because it has 33.5 million Hispanics who are imposing their culture ", affirmed Poniatowska while unveiling her new novel " La piel del cielo" in Caracas.

This arrogant witch is obviously one of the elite class which looks down on the poor hard-working people and encourages them to leave so they don't demand the changes that would rid Mexico of it's real cockroaches---the men and women of her elitist class. These people are so concerned with their wealth and making sure no middle class rises up in Mexico, it's in their interests to make the poor Mexicans and it's would-be middle class to think it's their patriotic duty to leave so they don't disrupt the two-class society they wish to preserve.

33 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:30:12 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

Thats right, what do these new immigrants owe to the corrupt Mexican government that refers to them as cockroaches, answer, nothing. Fox keeps trying to tell the american immigrants that they are still a part of Mexico when nothing could be farther from the truth when thier own government is giving them care packages to get the hell out of the country. As long as we americans have our guns we don't have to worry about Atzlan.

34 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:31:00 PDT by WileyCoyote22
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Damn them, don't they realize we took the northern half of their country by armed violence fair and square? (Before flaming me for dredging up ancient history, the Lincoln haters should remember the Civil War was only 20 years after the Mexican War).

Besides, if millions of residents of another country were voting in US elections, the same people would be complaining about the loss of sovereignty who complain about millions of people residing in the US voting in Mexican elections.

35 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:31:46 PDT by sendtoscott
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: norton

"Letting anyone in who can pay the coyote, then hoping for the best is assinine"

A Mexican born American friend of mine said that coyote's charge $1,000 per person. I am thinking of loading up the Suberban and heading to Tijuana once a month.

36 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:31:49 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

I think "cockroach" just lost something in the translation -- it would be similar to "scum of the earth" in English (which sounds insulting in Spanish).

It's important to note that Elena Poniatowska isn't talking about exporting political institutions, or "taking back" the United States in any political form -- she is just pointing out that the "wretched refuse" (another phrase that would sound condescending in another language) is increasing the connection between the United States and the Hispano-American world.

Incidentally, Poniatowska is a "leftist" by U.S. definitions, but she is praising the Mexican right (FOX and his PAN party) as well as the indigenous rights group -- which have a lot in common with the American right, although we sometimes see their traditional land-holding patterns as "socialist".

The immigrants to the US, on the other hand, are usually somewhat "self-selected" for our values -- they tend to be more individualistic, capitalists rather than communitarian.

37 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:32:37 PDT by Teza
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | Top | Last ]


To: glock rocks

I don't know about Mexican migrant workers, but most Americans I meet are honest and hard working ... yet they have no intellectual opposition to socialism.

38 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:33:01 PDT by gjenkins
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

due to a nihilistic strain in the Mexican national character

Octavio Paz had much insight into the cultural differences. He did not feel the need to blame Americans, he tried to point out to the Mexican people the differences in culture and character that led to the drastically different economies. I doubt he ever referred to his fellow citizens as dirty lice-ridden cockroaches.

39 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:33:27 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

We have an aging white America. They are dying. They are sh***ing in their pants with fear!… I love it!

Prof. Jose Angel Gutierrez (University of Texas, Arlington), FOUNDER, La Raza, [Speech of Jan. 1995, quoted in Coe, Reconquista, p. 16.]

40 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:34:31 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

"Mexico City's Excelsior columnist Carlos Loret De Mola, writing in an article entitled "The Great Invasion: Mexico Recovers Its Own" -- "

Can you cite this I would like to get the rest of the article.

41 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:35:49 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

Author: " sub-commander Marcos " in particular.
37 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:32:37 PDT by Teza:but she is praising the Mexican right (FOX and his PAN party) as well as the indigenous rights group -- which have a lot in common with the American right,

"If there is a civil war in Mexico, the first thing to fall will be the wall at the border."

"Subcomandante" Marcos - Communist, Dictator of the Zapatistas, Aspiring Dictator of Mexico, and Known Reconquista.

42 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:38:50 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

It was before I realized I was becoming a NEWS REPORTER for FR LOL usually I have the citation but not always.

43 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:39:46 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | Top | Last ]


To: glock rocks

I'm Texan and I agree with you. There are a good many of the immigrants who have come to the area where I live, and they have been much as you describe. The gangs and lawlessness that have accompanied them are, for the most part, encouraged by those who profit from keeping these workers at illegal status - coyotes, labor brokers, and Democrat agitators. Those people do not belong here in the United States, and there is no reason to allow them in. I would like to see this amnesty programs be used to "seperate the sheep from the goats"; to identify and process those workers and immigrants who want to be citizens, and those who are here to destroy this nation. If that could be accomplished, then it would be imperative to deport all those who are not here to work or to become citizens.

44 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:40:54 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

Seems to me, if Americans could stand up to tyranny we could regain our free nation. But what do I know?

45 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:42:58 PDT by Buckeroo (gibraltar@discover.net)
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | Top | Last ]


To: glock rocks

"funny how oklahomans and texans have despised me for liking the mexicans i know. it’s personal"

I like most of the Mexicans I know. There are many aspects of the Mexican culture that I love. I am a huge fan of Mexican TV. (I am an investor in a Spanish language TV station and radio station). I think that a great many Mexicans are hard working and love their families. But I do think the US has a right to choose who it lets into its country and I do not think that the illegals we are letting in will make this country stronger.

46 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:43:26 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

Think about it.

Mexican Invasion

47 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:43:38 PDT by Maalaea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Another difference between the people in the US and Mexico is the Mexicans assume the US has made a big push to seal the border. In the US we view the border as being barely defended.


i kinda hate to see my standard of living, that my
father struggled (and fought in the pacific) for, as
have i, to provide for my family and community,
to be deliberately and consistently watered down by
the “we have a responsibility for the u.s. government
to take care of everybody” mentality. if i feel that
responsibility, which i do, that’s fine... but i do not
feel my government should. Christian charity vs.
socialism. it’s basic; fundamental; visceral.

thanks for the bump, FreedomSurge.


48 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:47:21 PDT by glock rocks
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: laconic

"the Mexican-Americans I've met are very loyal to the US and the last thing I think they'd want is to be ruled by the gang they left behind"

Did you follow Univision's (Spanish language TV) coverage of the LA Mayor's race. They treated as if a Mexican national were going to be the first Mexican mayor of a US city. The lead anchor (a Mexican national) who was flown out from Miami to LA to cover the race was crest fallen when Villariagosa did not win.

Many Mexican-Americans that I know are very loyal, but I think we are talking mainly about the new arrivals and I don't think they are Americans quite yet.

49 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:51:30 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.

I understand why some are coming, however that's no excuse for breaking our laws and having total disregard for our culture and sovereignty

50 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:51:57 PDT by Joe Hadenuf
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: Buckeroo

Seems to me, if Americans could stand up to tyranny we could regain our free nation.

It is a frustrating time to be a patriotic American, to be someone who loved America when she was her greatest. Now America is all about $$$. Now they sell their souls but for what?

What is going on is different from when in the early 20th Century people from Eastern Europe who were Jews, people from Ireland, who were Catholic, people from Russia, who were Orthodox, people from Denmark who were Protestant, etc all came, all differnt cultures, religions, ethnic groups etc all were assimilated. Not today. They're not here to be assimilated, but to assimilate. This is the great danger going on now.

Does heartland America have so little self-respect so little patriotism that they think America is not worth fighting for?
Or is it like the way American Indians welcomed the Europeans?

The current immigration, if it remains at current levels, will change America forever.
Post-American America.
Brazil with nukes.

51 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:54:48 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Thanks for the note. I wish I could say that this is so much posturing by a PRI flake, but I can't.

I fear that the lady is prescient.

52 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:56:22 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | Top | Last ]


To: Maalaea

I noted that you're graph is old, from 1993.

The current trends are Hispanics going right by the southwest and heading to the Midwest, South and Northeast. We have read several recent articles regarding these trends.

53 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:58:03 PDT by Joe Hadenuf
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

It is truely interesting to reflect on the odd responses to your illuminating post.

1) certainly the downtrodden minimum wage type guys coming over are "happy" to be here, and that is exactly what they tell their European American pals.

2) But trust me, each and every one of them is packed full a mythology regarding how these lands were once "theirs" and how the land was stolen from them.

3) And one must consider the different attitude between the "Chincanos" and the "mexicans".....Chicanos are full speed for succession, autonomy, independence what have you. It is simply a accepted Worldview Chincanos have.

4) Anyone who thinks these groups are assimiliating hasn't got a clue. They may be buying into US style consumerism, but they still believe gringos are ursurpers.

5) White guys seem to think the issue is framed "California again part of Mexico".....but Chicanos don't frame the question is such terms. They think more along the lines of independence or autonomy. Remember, Washington DC is a a psycologically long, long way from San Jan Capistrano.

This will be the single greatest issue facing the US in the next 30-40 years. thanks Freedomsurge for the translation

54 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:59:29 PDT by vooch
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

Another grand master plan that is going to backfire with the unexpected result that the immigrants will become americans.

Visit southern California, southern Arizona, or southern Texas and see if you still feel the same way.

55 Posted on 08/11/2001 16:59:42 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

Unfortunately, they are not becoming Americans. That is the problem. In the past, waves of immigrants came her to be Americans. This wave wants to retain their language, their culture, and remain Mexican. I welcome those who wait in line and come here to embrace this culture. This is a nightmare that is going to destroy our nation.

56 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:01:16 PDT by doug from upland
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

"I think "cockroach" just lost something in the translation -- it would be similar to "scum of the earth" in English (which sounds insulting in Spanish). "

Good points about the translation. I was being a little to literal so as to not be accused of taking license. There are two points that she is making at the same time. That many of the Mexicans coming across the border are the lowest of the low of society, but what I did not put across that she was not personnally using these terms pejoritively due to her leftist leanings.

57 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:01:21 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Here! Here!

I hope you meant Hear! Hear!

Look to Democrats and Mexican Nationalist agitators

I don't want them Here! Here!

58 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:02:53 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

If there is a civil war in Mexico, the first thing to fall will be the wall at the border." "Subcomandante" Marcos - Communist, Dictator of the Zapatistas, Aspiring Dictator of Mexico, and Known Reconquista.

Communist? How so? I've heard the guy called everything in the book, but never a communist. What is your source for this?

Dictator of the Zapatistas? Certainly, he's the "public face" of the Zapatistas outside Mexico, and he's concocted a brilliant Public Relations campaign, but I think the Zapatistas would strongly disagree with you. If anything, he's become marginalized within that movement, and there's speculation he's left the country.

"Aspiring Dictator of Mexico"? Don't think so. His, and the Zapatista's, beef seemed to be with the old PRI. Marcos has an ego, that's for sure, but there's a real split now in the Zapatistas between the folks who are willing to work with the government, and those who want a stronger idigenous rights bill. That's democracy, not dictatorship.

"Known reconquista?" The Zapatistas haven't shown much interest in moving to the US -- as I've said, their movement is all about keeping their traditional values, and being able to stay home. The anti-Americanism has more to do with US companies that don't pay a living wage, or don't respect the traditional values of the Mayans, than with any desire to move to the United States.

You're free, of couse, to despise Marcos (and I'm not a big fan), and you may not like the Zapatistas (I'm not sold on them), but that's a different matter than just inventing smears. Besides, neither of us live in Chiapas, so I'm not sure our views on their local politics (and politicans) amount to a hill of beans.

59 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:03:29 PDT by Teza
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | Top | Last ]


To: laconic

most mexicans say they are mexican first and want spanish as the off. langlish

60 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:03:37 PDT by bunk
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | Top | Last ]


To: Joe Hadenuf

I understand why some are coming, however that's no excuse for breaking our laws and having total disregard for our culture and sovereignty**************

Very nice of you not to blame.As for their total disregard for our culture and sovereignty,why don't you tell their President,BUSH?

61 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:04:36 PDT by Derville
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | Top | Last ]


To: FITZ

She really isn't looking down upon the poor she is pointing out the irony of the situation - whereby it is the lowest of the low succeeding against the powerful US where the elites could not suceed against the US. I should have made a translation note on this point.

She really isn't part of the elite she is part of the intelligensia.

62 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:06:32 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

The answer is not to let in everybody - it is to let in only those who want to be here. I'm with you 100% on that, and see no reason to compromise there.

What hurts me the most is to think that the worst destroyers of our cultural heritage and our freedoms have come, not from another country, but from within our own borders. I for one would welcome people who are willing to work for a living, love their families, and believe in this nation. I am sick of people who are Americans in name only destroying our Nation, our culture and our freedoms; those who wear the mantle of morality while wiping their feet on the American Flag.

63 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:06:44 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | Top | Last ]


To: Derville

should read "not to blame them".

64 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:06:57 PDT by Derville
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

This is the reason that these people are leaving Mexico - not to fulfill the nationalistic fantasies of Mexico's privileged elite, but because they are treated like "cockroaches" by their own countrymen. No wonder Mexico cannot keep her own citizens from fleeing her borders - can you imagine a "respected" journalist from the United States referring to any citizen with such smug vitriol? This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor. I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.

It may have skipped your attention..but I bet you ,just as I do you eat tacco's and I bet that there is a push for bi-lingual workers all over your state..while you are not looking they are turning this into a suburb of Mexico

Mientras dormimos, ellos vienen. Ahora gracias a nuestro Presidente ellos vendrán mientras estamos despiertos. ¡Ud tenía mejor aprenden el español si Ud desea hablar a su gradnchildren!

65 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:09:00 PDT by RnMomof7
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: Maalaea

Wow. Jesse better bone up on his Spanish if he hopes to agitate in LA.

66 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:09:30 PDT by buccaneer81
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | Top | Last ]


To: doug from upland

Unfortunately, they are not becoming Americans.

That's very true, you can see many who fly Mexican flags or display them on their cars, speak only Spanish and express a hatred for all things American including the people. Many are not here because they know or love the Constitution, they see the founding fathers as nothing more than white racists. Many seem to admire anything Marxist and have nothing but praise for Castro and the others.

67 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:10:58 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | Top | Last ]


To: Maalaea

Yike! (AmericanPatrol.com hits the nail on the head.)

Too bad. That influence tests out pretty badly:
Mexican Immigrant Profile (Avg. Education Level 7th Grade)

As a result I prefer to make the distinction like Meredith Burke that Mexican immigrants are

Undesirable Aliens!

68 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:11:09 PDT by flamefront
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

I am embarras - no no it was an intentional joke - that's it, it was a joke - and I congratulate you on pointing it out.

69 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:11:12 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

EL PLAN DE AZTLAN

El Plan Espiritual de Aztlan

In the spirit of a new people that is conscious not only of its proud historical heritage but also of the brutal "gringo" invasion of our territories, we, the Chicano inhabitants and civilizers of the northern land of Aztlan from whence came our forefathers, reclaiming the land of their birth and consecrating the determination of our people of the sun, declare that the call of our blood is our power, our responsibility, and our inevitable destiny.

CLICK HERE FOR REST OF ARTICLE

70 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:11:30 PDT by Brownie74
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | Top | Last ]


To: Brownie74

I was wrong, these are definitely GOP Voters in 2002 and 2004
VIVA LA RAZA

71 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:13:11 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"What hurts me the most is to think that the worst destroyers of our cultural heritage and our freedoms have come, not from another country, but from within our own borders. "

That I can agree with you 100%.

72 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:15:12 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

Don't worry I join with you

VIVA LA RAZA

AZTLAN AHORA!

73 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:16:04 PDT by luvzhottea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

She really isn't part of the elite she is part of the intelligensia.

Same difference, the "intelligensia" is part of the elite. I'll bet she's not overly Indian or Mestizo in her appearance just like the others. The upper class in Mexico looks down on the poor classes, I don't think calling people cucarachas (that would be cockroach in Spanish) would be anything but an insult. The elite in Mexico wants these people to leave, they may even act like it's noble and patriotic just to get them to leave all the faster. They aren't connected with the Atzlan movement because they look down on those Chicanos even more.

74 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:16:52 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

Exactly! This is a very clever way for these opinionated Mexicans to find a silver lining, however.

75 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:17:57 PDT by DCPatriot
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: Brownie74

This guy has as much leverage or intellectual credibility as the KKK, New Black Panthers, or the Aryan Nation - next to none. He's got about as many followers too - meaning next to none. I really love his outfit, but he needs more cast-off UIL medals to go with that uniform.

Of course, if you continue to give him media coverage, or make an issue of him, I'll guarantee you that somebody somewhere will take him seriously. Time to let him crawl under his rock again - if he were really serious, he'd be with the Zapotecs right now...

76 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:20:46 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

HUH? What does a racist fringe group like Aztlan have to do with Zapatistas, or with Elaine Pontaiska's perceptive remarks on immigration?

Aztlan has a few fringe supporters, mostly minor professors at minor colleges, and not much support in the United States. It's about as representative of Mexican and Mexican-American thought as the Nation of Islam is of African-Americans.

77 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:22:54 PDT by Teza
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | Top | Last ]


To: glock rocks

"Christian charity vs. socialism. it’s basic; fundamental; visceral"

Some time I would like to get a thread going on this topic. I as a Christian and a moral individual have an obligation to help my fellow man; My country's government has an obligation to make the country strong and follow its constitution. If I am say the President, then my duty as a leader is very much different than my duty as a man. There can be contridictions there and I think it could lead to an interesting discussion.

78 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:24:50 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Recovering lost territory?????

Damn, I never knew they had owned Chicago!!!

79 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:27:00 PDT by fightu4it
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Vivo el Presidente Jorge Bush e el Presidente Vincente Fox! Viva la Reconquista!

/sarcasm

80 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:28:16 PDT by Arator
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Reminiscent of Christ's conversation with the Pharisees regarding taxes and religion. An interesting thread for sure - start'er up!

81 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:28:34 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

"White guys seem to think the issue is framed "California again part of Mexico".....but Chicanos don't frame the question is such terms. They think more along the lines of independence or autonomy. Remember, Washington DC is a a psycologically long, long way from San Jan Capistrano. "

Great post, great points, will reply more fully later, unfortunately I think my mom is calling and I got to go.

82 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:28:54 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

This might be a good time to check out Steve Sailer's articles on Mexico's caste system. I don't know if he's right or not, but there certainly does seem to be a gulf between the Mexico's European elites and Indian poor.

It seems like everyone's expectations are likely to be foiled. Mexican immigrants won't be pawns of the Mexican government, nor will they all melt into assimilated Americans if immigration is allowed to continue at a high rate. The answer may be the creation of a new group or groups. I'm told that California's immigrants and Texas's come from very different parts of Mexico (South vs. North). Are we looking at the creation of new nationalities?

83 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:30:03 PDT by x
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

Thank you for posting this. Her views are consistent with the economic policies and pronouncements of the Mexican government and the U.S. Democratic Party alike. So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome.************

They are invaders (illegal aliens) and they are not welcome in my country."Obeys common law",hey Harris,do you mean after they illegally invade our country? "With the economic policies and pronoucements of the Mexican government and the U.S. Democratic party alike",why did you leave out your President and party? Bush wants to reward their invasion with legal status,what's that about?Also,Bush is fighting to keep affirmative action for them as well.What a guy,or should I say what a quisling?

84 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:30:04 PDT by Guthrum
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: Arator

Bump!

85 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:31:26 PDT by Guthrum
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

That would be a worth while thread. Do we have a duty to force our neighbors to be charitable?

86 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:33:04 PDT by gjenkins
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Hey! Did you hear the one about some American thugs who kidnapped a Mexican and held him for ransom??

87 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:35:34 PDT by fightu4it
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: x

Excellent thought. The "Mexicans" I meet are from many different parts of Mexico, but Tejano (Tex-Mex) culture has been around as long as Texas and they assimilate into that rather quickly. It would be interesting to see the conversations that would emanate between Californian Mexican factions and Tejano communities...

88 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:36:34 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | Top | Last ]


To: doug from upland

"This is a nightmare that is going to destroy our nation."

Yup, it's already pretty much trashed much of LA, Orange, Riverside, and San Diego counties. Those of us who grew up in SoCal have watched the *California Dream* turn into a third world "nightmare". Those who haven't seen it, should. It will give you a new perspective on immigration.

Fact: The majority of Mexican immigrants absolutely do NOT assimilate.

89 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:39:02 PDT by A Navy Vet
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

This "reporter" had better duck. If they think they are going to recover their "lost" territory, they should studdy some of the history of their own country and look at the old maps. Texas went almost to Mexico City. Do they really want that to happen again?

90 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:40:23 PDT by D Joyce
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

>>She also talked about the boom in Indian rights as a result of the fight maintained for many years by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN) and by " sub-commander Marcos " in particular.<<

Bush/Subcommander Marcos in 2004!

91 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:44:20 PDT by Jim Noble
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

You are so right. I watched Los Angeles begin it slide down the slippery slope from 1968 to 1980. I got out of Dodge while the getting was good.

You are right, these people will not assimilate. They do not want our laws or our Constitution. They want us to change and be like them. No way Jose!!

92 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:46:01 PDT by Brownie74
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Source

93 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:47:40 PDT by sarcasm
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

They want to come here---LEARN ENGLISH & ASSIMILATE INTO OUR CULTURE---& become productive "taxpaying" citizens--WELCOME, "COMPADRES!!"

They want to "take over" land our forefathers shed their blood to protect---they are "Bugs," & should be treated as such!

We owe Mexico & "Mexicans NOTHING!!"

Doc

94 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:48:39 PDT by Doc On The Bay
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge dandelion gjenkins

"Christian charity vs. socialism. it’s basic; fundamental; visceral"
Some time I would like to get a thread going on this topic.


i might not have a lot to contribute, but i would
sure like to read it. i kinda thought that comment would
start a firestorm... wasn't my intention, though.

95 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:51:47 PDT by glock rocks
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | Top | Last ]


To: Guthrum

Whoa, there, Guthrum. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, and I don't support Bush. My political philosophy is laissez-faire capitalism. I'm not in favor of "illegal immigration" or "affirmative action" (i.e., racial quotas). In fairness to Republicans, they are not nearly as pathetic as Democrats when it comes to ethnic pandering. I articulated an immigration policy - do you disagree with it?

96 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:52:22 PDT by John Harris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | Top | Last ]


To: Doc On The Bay

We owe Mexico & "Mexicans NOTHING!!"

Exactamente!!

97 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:58:33 PDT by Brownie74
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 94 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

Well,at leat we have one thing in common,neither of us is a Republican or Democrat but if the immigration policy you articulated allows illegal aliens,indeed welcomes them, I'm not impressed.

98 Posted on 08/11/2001 17:58:58 PDT by Guthrum
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | Top | Last ]


To: Brownie74

You are right, these people will not assimilate. They do not want our laws or our Constitution. They want us to change and be like them. No way Jose!!


and the democrat party welcomes this. stop me
if you’ve heard this before... i’ll shut up now.

99 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:04:04 PDT by glock rocks
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

One of my questions is "If these people are so poor in Mexico,how can they afford to pay 1,000 bucks each to be smuggled into the US,and even have enough left over to get them by until they can get work?

100 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:16:30 PDT by sneakypete
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Hey lady, my suggestion is for "us" norte americanos, to "liberate" MEXICO.

101 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:21:37 PDT by stumpy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: doug from upland

The Mexicans that I see in Los Angeles are turning it into a third world pesthole. The streets in many areas are open sewers, some once neat homes have goats and chickens grazing in the back yard (feces included). What used to be neat flower gardens now sprout melting junk cars. Crowds of men stand around on street corners. Ostensibly they are waiting for day labor, in reality they are harassing women and girls. The younger the girl the better. They are very vocal and extremely happy to be returning the US to Mexico. Flyers are posted with a gun imposed over a map of California saying "Whites Get Out". There are bumper stickers saying "F**k you this is still Mexico". Recently a t-shirt fad is wearing a shirt proclaiming "Not Mexican - Not Wanted". Although whites and blacks are leaving every day, about a month ago a woman down the street found a pipe bomb under her car (no suspects) and yesterday a carload of Mexicans drove past me and peppered my car with rocks. I guess we're not leaving fast enough for them. As pointed out by Freedom Surge, the first phase is to take over all of the political institutions, but the second phase is to remove all non-hispanics by any means necessary. If you think "open borders" means Americans will be welcome in Mexico, you need to consider something else.

102 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:30:09 PDT by lgllady
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | Top | Last ]


To: Guthrum

...if the immigration policy you articulated allows illegal aliens,indeed welcomes them, I'm not impressed.

My exact words were "So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him." That is the legal standard I propose for immigration, with the exception of the language part - I wouldn't make that a legal requirement, though an immigrant who is unwilling to learn our language I would not welcome.

Now, is there some attribute of my proposed standard with which you disagree? Please do repeat the phrase "illegal immigrant," as I am not in favor of, nor advocating, illegal immigration. I am advocating a standard for legal immigration. If someone does not comply with that standard, they would be illegal and should be deported.

103 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:47:03 PDT by John Harris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 98 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

" But trust me, each and every one of them is packed full a MYTHOLOGY regarding how these lands were once "theirs" and how the land was stolen from them."

From my vantage point, in LA, this is my perception, too. I often wonder if their indoctrination/brainwashing compels them give off the same vibrations in Chicago, Atlanta, etc.

104 Posted on 08/11/2001 18:49:54 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

You bet Bro.........

105 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:06:59 PDT by Joe Hadenuf
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | Top | Last ]


To: RnMomof7

"¡Ud tenía mejor aprenden el español si Ud desea hablar a su gradnchildren!"

Not me. My granddaughter is bi-lingual.

106 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:10:32 PDT by JudyB1938
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Pretty much sums it up. I'm witnessing La Reconquista of the WHOLE united states not just the common invasion of the southwestern states. This is simply an imposition on me and a people's language i don't care to partake in.


Current Invasion says


Strong Bond with their former country


More pride in their former culture


Most of them keeping Spanish as their first language with no desire to assimilate

107 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:12:55 PDT by tranked
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

“Mexico is recovering lost territories via immigration"

----------------

Of course. It's obvious. And if George Bush has his way it will require a civil war to stop it.

108 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:16:35 PDT by RLK
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

I am a huge fan of Mexican TV. (I am an investor in a Spanish language TV station and radio station).

This will be our downfall bringing in bilingualism to the mainstream. transmitido en espanol sap - saw this on a cable channel owned by the mouse.

109 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:23:09 PDT by tranked
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | Top | Last ]


To: RLK

And if George Bush has his way it will require a civil war to stop it.

Are you ready to rock 'n' roll? This is the end game.

110 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:26:06 PDT by Maalaea
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

I am embarras

Sorry 'bout that - not my intent. I enjoy your posts, don't take this as a detriment.

111 Posted on 08/11/2001 19:38:58 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Thanks for posting this...

"Mexico is recovering the territories yielded to the United States by means of migratory tactics”.

Notice the term "migratory tactics." The invasions (and this IS an invasion) by the Gauls, Goths, and so on brought Rome to ruin. I strongly suspect our own American culture will fall as well - and, sadly, our economic elite are encouraging the migration that will cause that fall.

Not that I like my conclusions....

112 Posted on 08/11/2001 20:11:13 PDT by neutrino (neutrino)
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

I have a number of Mexican immigrants working for me. One is my warehouse manager. He came to the US without any money, and unable to speak English. He worked for LESS than minimum wages picking apples (even though he had a college degree from Mexico). He learned that the local comunity college provided english classes. He picked apples during the day, learned english at night. I have another in my company who has a degree in accounting from a Mexican university, but he can provide better for his family working in a warehouse for $8.00 an hour in the US, than teaching in a university in Mexico. I know I have done battle with a few folks at FR about immigration, and I do understand some of the concerns expressed in these threads, although a few seem to be very close to racism at heart, rather than legit immigration concerns. I can say from PERSONAL experience that the Mexicans that I have come to know through my work, are the hardest working people I have encountered in my life. When push comes to shove, when I need folks to work the extra hours, when I need volunteers for Sunday work, the ONES who show up all have Spanish surnames.....and they are so grateful for the opportunity. Of course, I do not live in LA....I am not exposed to the gangs, etc....but, I do know the people I have encountered, and they are some of the BEST people I have ever known....and they are NOT the lowest class as is suggested in this thread....most are very well educated, although most do not speak english....and my warehouse manager is continually telling them that if they wish to advance in the US they must learn english....I do not claim that my experience is the final word, but I do claim that it at least allows me to assert that some of the very negative sterotyping is not valid.

113 Posted on 08/11/2001 20:25:13 PDT by Impeach the Boy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

Unprecedented no. The Goths and Rome come to mind. The Goths only wanted to farm when they stood on the Danube and then crossed over.

114 Posted on 08/11/2001 20:34:10 PDT by HENRYADAMS
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | Top | Last ]


To: Impeach the Boy

I have a number of Mexican immigrants working for me.

I agree with everything you say about the fine qualities of people from Mexico. Key question: are your "immigrants" here legally or illegally?

115 Posted on 08/11/2001 20:42:31 PDT by Bernard Marx
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

We should provide a rifle and 400 rounds of ammunition to every captured illegal alien adult....then send them back to Mexico via similar covert routes from which they came..

We shall see how quickly The Mexican government can shut down its own illegal emmigration problem.

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
--Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787.

_______________________________________

...freedom is not free...

116 Posted on 08/11/2001 20:55:23 PDT by semper_libertas
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome.

I agree 100%, as long as "obeyes common law" means this person also obeyed the immigration laws and came here legally.

117 Posted on 08/11/2001 23:14:07 PDT by Keyes For President
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: luvzhottea

That may be the author of the "Kill the Gringo!" speech from years ago. I know who knows why they're here, but He hasn't told me. One of my favorite contemporary Christian songs includes the words: "There's one thing you can count on - there's one thing you can know for sure - things are gonna change!" He hasn't given up on the U.S. yet.

118 Posted on 08/11/2001 23:33:57 PDT by 185JHP
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | Top | Last ]


To: Impeach the Boy

You have had the great good fortune to employ the cream of the Mexican diaspora, the college educated.

But 95% of the illegals flooding in have less than a 7th grade education and can barely write IN SPANISH much less English.

These folks will be easy prey for the seduction of welfare and social services as better promised by the Demonrat party.

119 Posted on 08/11/2001 23:58:49 PDT by Travis McGee
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

"This is a nightmare that is going to destroy our nation." Yup, it's already pretty much trashed much of LA, Orange, Riverside, and San Diego counties. Those of us who grew up in SoCal have watched the *California Dream* turn into a third world "nightmare". Those who haven't seen it, should. It will give you a new perspective on immigration.
Fact: The majority of Mexican immigrants absolutely do NOT assimilate.

I am in LA, and I was born in LA.
I disagree with ALL of your points.

BTW, today I went to the LA Zoo...the patrons were mostly Mexicans.

120 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:03:26 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

FreedomSurge, Thank you for sharing this article with Free Republic readers. Living here in Mexico for ten years influenced me to become a proponent of immigration restriction and assimilation. If present disastrous immigration and assimilation policies continue, I simply don't see how the U.S. can survive as a united and sovereign nation. Wake up, America!

121 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:05:11 PDT by Allan Wall
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

"This is a nightmare that is going to destroy our nation." Yup, it's already pretty much trashed much of LA, Orange, Riverside, and San Diego counties. Those of us who grew up in SoCal have watched the *California Dream* turn into a third world "nightmare". Those who haven't seen it, should. It will give you a new perspective on immigration.

I am in LA. I've lived in the LA area, on and off since 1953. I AGREE with ALL of your points. Once I went to the LA Zoo...It was hard to tell the visitors from the residents.

122 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:40:35 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

"I am in LA, and I was born in LA. I disagree with ALL of your points. BTW, today I went to the LA Zoo...the patrons were mostly Mexicans."

Ever been to East LA? Ever been to Commerce, Whittier? Ever been to Santa Ana? Ever been to San Ysidro, Chula Vista, parts of Riverside? I can go on, but the point is much of the signage and the spoken language is in Spanish. That's not assimilating. And sections of those places look as grungy as Tijuana. I'm not saying the entire county or a whole city is affected, but there are pockets all over Southern California that look like third world countries. So the patrons at the zoo were "Mexicans" or Hispanic-Americans? If Mexicans, why?

123 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:50:08 PDT by A Navy Vet
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 120 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Once I went to the LA Zoo...It was hard to tell the visitors from the residents.

Thanks for illustrating the root of the problem.
Racism, both here and in Mexico.

124 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:56:06 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

So, Big Meanie - you live in LA. How many times have you voted and who did you vote for? The reason I'm asking: because the sort of statement you made sounds like the kind of thing that the Democrats keep claiming conservatives think. That sort of statement is the same thing the race baiters claim is said here all the time, but I've only noticed that these statements come mostly from new posters. I'm curious...

125 Posted on 08/12/2001 00:56:29 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 122 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

Ever been to East LA? Ever been to Commerce, Whittier? Ever been to Santa Ana? Ever been to San Ysidro, Chula Vista, parts of Riverside?

Yes to all.

... but there are pockets all over Southern California that look like third world countries.

And many are full of whites
What's your point?

So the patrons at the zoo were "Mexicans" or Hispanic-Americans? If Mexicans, why?

My mistake, Hispanics. Though I'd guess most were Mexicans.

126 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:01:43 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 123 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

There are pockets all over the northeast that look the same way - but with signs in English (if you can read them through the graffiti). Truth is, cities have problems, have had problem, our culture is in trouble AND WE ARE TO BLAME FOR 99.99% of it.

The Mexican immigrants didn't create the cultural cesspool known as Hollywood. The Mexican immigrants didn't run our school system into the ground. The Mexican immigrants didn't introduce gangs to U.S. cities. The Mexican immigrants didn't create the welfare system. We did it ourselves. I defer to that wise philosopher Pogo - we have met the enemy, and he is us...

127 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:05:25 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 123 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

I defer to that wise philosopher Pogo - we have met the enemy, and he is us...

Wrong!
It's - We have met the enemy, and prefer to blame someone else.

128 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:10:05 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

John, you may not understand the perspective of the mexican. To him, there is still a battle going on between the USA and mexico.

They laugh at the foolishness of the soft men in America who will not even defend their country from vast hordes of illegals.

They see the USA as a once strong, but now, a very weak country ripe for invasion and takeover. They plan on winning back lost territories by any means.

Mexico is filled with evil, back stabbing, vile politicians who enjoy seeing mexicos great unwashed leave the country, but then move illegally into the USA.

These profoundly evil men hate the poor mexican, but love to the the "cockroaches" causing problems for the USA, and potentially benefiting mexico by taking political control over towns, and states, then sending taxpayer money south of the border.

Mexico is incredibly corrupt. Most banks there are involved in drug trafficing. Fox has not changed this. He has only duplicated Nelson Mandella's communistic takeover: He's made many promises, but has done nothing since he won election.

From the view of mexican politicians, the illegal aliens, or cockroaches as they call them, are like escaping steam from a boiling pot. If the steam did not leave the pot, soon the pot would explode.

129 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:22:19 PDT by Carol-HuTex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

Sorry,my friend,I'm not a laissez faire anything,nor a neo-anything.Your setting of the bar is truly minimalist.Regrettably,an honest and frank discussion of immigration requirements would be useful but it is not possible on this forum.However,at this time,this country needs a respite from all legal immigration,an indefinite moratorium.When and if it should then be decided that we need immigrants there shouuld be a true,honest and robust debate.For my part,I would immediately repeal by legislation or executive order the 1965 Immigration and Nationality Act - Amendment and all subsequent enabling legislation.This country must examine itself and its needs.We are facing a crisis that,if not immediately addressed,will bring our country to ruin,in my opinion.

130 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:25:33 PDT by Guthrum
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | Top | Last ]


To: Carol-HuTex

John, you may not understand the perspective of the mexican.

Yet you seem to.
Where did you get your in depth understanding of the Mexican male?

131 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:27:49 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 129 | Top | Last ]


To: Impeach the Boy

I agree with almost everything you said in your fine post #113 about the virtues of Mexicans. Although I've never met a Mexican with a college degree that has picked apples, I have had very extensive, very close contact with them for almost 40 years. Any given one of them is just fine. The problem is the sheer numbers. LA County was less than 1% Hispanic in 1960 and is 47% Hispanic today. If you don't think that will change your attitude you've got another think coming. Did you ever have 100,000 to 200,000 angry Mexicans marching down the street in your town demanding their rights? (Prop 187). Is your school system 75% (?) Hispanic? Read post 102 again. Is this a lady that has nothing better to do than make up stories like this?

A commission headed by Barbara Jordan (D) Texas, advocated 850,000 immigrants a year. There are approx 200 countries in the world. Mexico's share would be approx 4,000 each year. According to Vicente Fox, there are 18,000,000 Mexicans in this country. Don't anybody take my word for it. Do the math. Mexico already has it's share here for the next 4235 years.

You are right to trust your own eyes and not just believe every negative thing you read about illegal aliens. But just remember, the press isn't going to tell you how it is and the average citizen is going to keep their mouth shut. Just keep asking yourself how come when the Mexicans move into a neighborhood everyone else moves out??? And it isn't because of "smog, the G.I. Bill or the Interstate Hwy Act."

132 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:29:30 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

"And many are full of whites"

Many what? The Tijuana clones? Not likely. "What's your point?" Simple. We have a wonderfully high standard of living in the US. Those of us who have helped build it have earned the right to keep it. The huge influx of people coming into these once well-kept communities has a diminishing effect on the standard of living mentioned above. Shirley, you've seen the delapidated sections of the towns I named.

Solution: a 3 year moratorium on ALL immigration. That's right, don't want anymore of those evil Europeon white guys, either. We can only take so much of the world without ill effect. Talk to a sociologist. Or talk to a historian about the Balkanization effect.

133 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:35:58 PDT by A Navy Vet
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 126 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Pretty high-brow talk for the author of #122.
I'll take your advice and not take your word for it.

P.S. Welcome to FR, racist. I'm sure you've met the others of your ilk.

134 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:38:09 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"The Mexican immigrants didn't create the cultural cesspool known as Hollywood. The Mexican immigrants didn't run our school system into the ground. The Mexican immigrants didn't introduce gangs to U.S. cities. The Mexican immigrants didn't create the welfare system. We did it ourselves. I defer to that wise philosopher Pogo - we have met the enemy, and he is us..."

I didn't say or mean to imply they did. But the huge influx exaserbates much of the above. Why make things worse?

135 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:39:58 PDT by A Navy Vet
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 127 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

We have a wonderfully high standard of living in the US.

Partially due to immigration. Right?

And quit calling me Shirley.

136 Posted on 08/12/2001 01:46:39 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

What is RACIST about.


Protecting the border of the united states?


Wanting to keep the Illegal Invader out?


Having english as the sole language of the united states?


A call for lower immigration numbers?

137 Posted on 08/12/2001 02:24:29 PDT by tranked
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | Top | Last ]


To: Impeach the Boy

Your experience is the same as mine and everyone else who hires unskilled or semiskilled workers. The message that is getting lost is the fact that our work force has become weak and dissolute. I would rather work with an American kid who shares my background and wants to learn but they don't exist anymore. Just like John Wayne in "The Cowboys" I don't give jobs, I hire men. To hire men now you have to speak Spanish.

The other day an American kid who had been pestering me for weeks for a job was in my office. My partner watched me dodge and weave and give him the bum's rush. After he left my partner told me "If you want to get rid of him just tell him to show up tomorrow morning at 7:00. You'll never see him again." It worked.

The American working class had better be worried and it has nothing to do with cheap labor. It has to do with work ethics and their lunch is about to be eaten. Give these people some English and Katy bar the door because they'll take off like a rocket.

I can find things to take issue with about their culture. I may have been on the border too long because I reserve the right to be depreciating about the the thing I don't like. By the same token I'll give credit where credit is due and these people are due credit. I'll take some kid who just walked 200 miles through Hell for a chance to work his butt off 10 times before I'll hire a neuroses ridden slacker who thinks I owe him a job and has no concept of what a job entails.

138 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:06:04 PDT by MARTIAL MONK
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Re "Welcome to FR, racist."

" The common people - the poor, the dirty, the lice ridden, the cockroaches are advancing on the United States." But don't take my word for it.

You can call me a racist or anything else you want. It won't bother me one iota. What would bother me is if I got some of my facts wrong. Then I would offer my apologies. I would also offer my apologies if I were to get carried away and violate one of FR Rules of Etiquette. I don't believe that I've done that. Wouldn't it be nice if we could get the same consideration from Mexico.

This is a sovereign nation. Illegal aliens don't have the right to be here. Anytime illegal aliens, or their supporters, don't like what I have to say about illegal aliens they are welcome to leave---as you suggested that I do a few weeks ago. I believe in treating illegal aliens with the same contempt that they treat their neighbors. I'm big on equality.

IMO, speaking out, loud and clear, is one thing that EVERY American can do to help stop the Mexican invasion. One of my missions in life is to turn illegal alien bashing (verbally) into a national sport, make their stay in the USA as unpleasant as possible and make them wish that they could go home. Hopefully, someday, 200 million other Americans will tire of political correctness and join me.

139 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:35:40 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Although somewhat pink, Poniatowska is not a radical, she is not a member of some wacky Azatlan group she is highly intelligent and highly respected mainstream Mexican journalist and author.

Somewhat pink? In your experience with this subject, have you run across the EZLN? It has always been quiet fashionable for the intellegencia to support the radical left. The equivalent in the US would be the gatherings of NY elite in the days of groups like The Black Panthers mixing with the Kennedys and Rockfellers Sunday afternoons in their apartments over-looking Central Park.

It affords them angst for their muse as they listen to the struggles of the poor and working class ( or proletariat).

She also talked about the boom in Indian rights as a result of the fight maintained for many years by the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN) and by " sub-commander Marcos " in particular. " Thanks to ' Marcos' Indian rights is again up for discussion in Latin American", she maintained when presenting her literary work to la Corporación Andina de Fomento (CAF). Her novel won the “Alfaguara de Novela 2001” prize.

If you know Mexican politics, you will surely know this lady is a member of the PRD, or the coalition of small communist and socialist groups brought together by Cuaotemac Cardenas, whose father nationalized the foreign owned oil companies in the 30s, creating PEMEX and the privately owned banks, creating the gov't owned National Bank of Mexico. Cardenas the Younger left the PRI to make several attempts at the presidency.

140 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:37:09 PDT by TexMex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

So what is the big surprise. This is old news and nothing will be done about it. Buchanan, the only candidate to take a position in favor of American soverignty was run out of town.

I'm tired of hearing about this issue. It is a lost cause.

141 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:43:03 PDT by MissBaby
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Sorry, PRND21, I pushed the wrong button or something. My last post (#139) was for you.

142 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:49:02 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

"So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome."

You left out ONE KEY POINT. Said immigrant must also be LEGAL. IMHO, even if he meets all of your criteria, if he has broken the law by entering illegally, he has only one "right"--the right to be sent back home immediately.

143 Posted on 08/12/2001 03:56:36 PDT by Wonder Warthog
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: The Kitten

"Another grand master plan that is going to backfire with the unexpected result that the immigrants will become americans."

No. They become democrats, which is the opposite of "Americans"

--Boris

144 Posted on 08/12/2001 08:51:38 PDT by boris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | Top | Last ]


To: John Harris

"Thank you for posting this. Her views are consistent with the economic policies and pronouncements of the Mexican government and the U.S. Democratic Party alike. So long as an immigrant can rent or buy a place to stay, speaks or is willing to learn English, obeys common law, and is otherwise self-sufficient, I welcome him. Those who fail those tests are unwelcome."

Suppose an "immigrant", as his first action, violates the law?...for example, by becoming an illegal immigrant? Do you welcome him then?

Do they get to break one law for free, and then have to "obey common law"? Does the one crime not count?

If they go on welfare...or drop a kid on the ground on this side of the border (the kid becomes a citizen, eligible for all sorts of goodies provided by taxpayers)...is this still OK with you?

Just curious.

--Boris

145 Posted on 08/12/2001 08:54:41 PDT by boris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | Top | Last ]


To: Brownie74

They are posting banners all over L.A. These banners are usually used to promote big concerts, special exhibits at museums, etc. These banners are now--in their thousands--shouting in gold letters on blue: "THE ROAD TO ATZLAN".

And I am not making this up.

--Boris

146 Posted on 08/12/2001 08:59:19 PDT by boris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

The Mexican Invador's "Congress" Has Just Installed '30' Now Empty Seats...That Will Soon be Filled by Mexicans That Will Be "Elected-Ap-apointed" to Represent The Newly Liberated... Mexican States That Have Long Been 'Occupied' by The Gringo's"....As Reported by a Guest on The Bob Grant Show on Friday.....

147 Posted on 08/12/2001 09:22:43 PDT by mr spike
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

This squares very well with the book Civil War II by Thomas W. Chittam which predicts a second racially driven civil war. The southwest is becoming a de facto Mexican territory. Thanks for posting this.

148 Posted on 08/12/2001 09:31:17 PDT by MileHi
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | Top | Last ]


To: FITZ

"The upper class in Mexico looks down on the poor classes"

No disagreement there. But if you are saying that because the Mexican poor is discriminated by the Mexican elite the US is required to let all the Mexican poor into the US then I would disagree.

149 Posted on 08/12/2001 09:32:26 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"Reminiscent of Christ's conversation with the Pharisees regarding taxes and religion. An interesting thread for sure - start'er up!"

If I find a good story to start the discussion with I will do so. The immigration problem does lend itself to this sort of discussion. As a moral individual wouldn't we be required to build ships to carry billions of Indians, Chinese, Bangledeshi's etc. to our shores to share our bounty and good fortune? They will work hard and love their families so what is the harm? As a policy maker for the US this would destroy the US and therefore you would enforce limits on immigration.

150 Posted on 08/12/2001 09:39:33 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | Top | Last ]


To: sneakypete

"One of my questions is "If these people are so poor in Mexico, how can they afford to pay 1,000 bucks each to be smuggled into the US, and even have enough left over to get them by until they can get work?"

Very, very perceptive question Mr. Pete. Let's use Fox's numbers and assume 500,000 new illegals are crossing the border each year. Think of the logistic implications. Not only does there have to be costs of getting across the border, there has to be transportation costs to individual cities, in the individual cities there has to be collection points for new arrivals, there has to employment agencies, there has to be vast document creation networks and all of this has to be underground and none of this has been reported.

151 Posted on 08/12/2001 09:52:22 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Its Called..."Ship and Dump"......

152 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:03:26 PDT by mr spike
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

"1) certainly the downtrodden minimum wage type guys coming over are "happy" to be here, and that is exactly what they tell their European American pals"

I think there is a huge problem with romanticising the Mexican peasant on these threads by the unrestircted illegal immigration crowd. I am very sure that those who are doing so in general don't speak much Spanish and generally don't speak to enough new arrivals. See the following article Mexican Immigrant Profile (Avg. Education Level 7th Grade). The posting based on Mexican government statistics says that the immigrants are of two sorts; 50% somewhat educated (high school diploma +) and 50% virtually uneducated (average education 1st grade).

I am surprised that your right on the mark post had not generated about 50 replies by the time I came back this morning.

153 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:10:08 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

"2) But trust me, each and every one of them is packed full a mythology regarding how these lands were once "theirs" and how the land was stolen from them"

I believe you are 100% right on on this. The problem is that other than the Azatlan extremists this is talked about but not written about. I will keep an eye out for more legitimate sources and post when I find.

154 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:16:47 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | Top | Last ]


To: boris

Boris, I believe you. When I first moved to Los Angeles in 1968, I knew the owner of a little Mexican restaurant on Central Ave. just south of 7th Street. She was a nice lady and served great food. Steak Picado - I loved it.

By the time I left LA in 1980, I was told by customers in the restaurant never to come into it again because I was on "their turf".

You have a different breed of cat out there in California than we have here. But, the end goal is the same. Aztlan!!

155 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:21:56 PDT by Brownie74
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

"White guys seem to think the issue is framed "California again part of Mexico".....but Chicanos don't frame the question is such terms. They think more along the lines of independence or autonomy. Remember, Washington DC is a a psycologically long, long way from San Jan Capistrano. "

Again your post was so right on that I was amazed that it hadn't generated 50 replies by the time I came back. If anyone thinks this is a Mexican government master plan they are nuts. If you think Villariagosa, the next mayor of LA (in four years) is going to be reporting to Mexico it isn't the case. But if you don't think a new autonomous region (Gringolandia - the name Nayalie from Amigas y Rivals calls the US) isn't a serious possibility then you haven’t heard of Kosavo especially if the US is required to continue to support it. In the next few weeks I will write and post something on how Gringolandia will have as much right to autonomy as Kosovo.

156 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:30:13 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | Top | Last ]


To: sneakypete

One of my questions is "If these people are so poor in Mexico,how can they afford to pay 1,000 bucks each to be smuggled into the US,and even have enough left over to get them by until they can get work?

That's the propaganda we're supposed to believe. People in Mexico and Guatemala with access to $1000 don't need to risk their lives coming to the US. It would be stupid to "hire" a coyote who'll bring you through the desert when you can just walk over on your own across over a bridge. Many don't even walk, they ride in a car or bus.

157 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:33:00 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

The next thread I create I am going to ask people to state what state they are from. I think it will be very illuminating.

158 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:36:13 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Not even what state----the state I live in has serious problems in some areas that aren't affecting much of the rest of the state because they costs of providing indigent care is handled by country property tax owners. Many in this state are not paying much at all ----yet.

159 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:40:43 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | Top | Last ]


To: glock rocks

"i kinda hate to see my standard of living, that my father struggled (and fought in the pacific) for, as have i, to provide for my family and community, to be deliberately and consistently watered down by the “we have a responsibility for the u.s. government to take care of everybody” mentality"

My father in WWII bombed his mother's homeland. I asked him before he passed how he could have done that. (Not a challenge just curious). He answered me with one of those "boy are we from different generation - because it was the right thing to do - moron" kind of looks.

160 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:43:32 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Of course she is. The dregs will do the hard work and then the elites will reap the rewards. The system that has kept Mexico poor will now have a much bigger pile of wealth to loot. The dregs will take the houses left by the fleeing Americans in the less affluent parts of the former US while the elites will take the multi million dollar homes in La Jolla, Rancho Santa Fe etc. They will probably even be able to keep the same gardeners and nannys. And the stupid Americans will still have to pay the mortgages.

161 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:49:50 PDT by willyone
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

"Excellent thought. The "Mexicans" I meet are from many different parts of Mexico, but Tejano (Tex-Mex) culture has been around as long as Texas and they assimilate into that rather quickly"

Next thread, I am going to ask people to state what state they are from. I think the experiences are going to be vastly different.

162 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:50:51 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | Top | Last ]


To: FITZ

"Many in this state are not paying much at all ----yet."

Something I am really learning is that it all depends on whose ox is being gored. I am not quite wealthy enough to live in a gated community and have servants so in the meantime I have to care about the future of the US.

163 Posted on 08/12/2001 10:56:12 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | Top | Last ]


To: FITZ

Being that she was born in Paris of French parents I would expect her to be quite European in appearance. Makes sense no?

164 Posted on 08/12/2001 11:07:00 PDT by willyone
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

trashed much of LA, Orange, Riverside, and San Diego counties.
The Lord teaches me to love everybody, but your observation is absolutely true. I'm a refugee from L.A. county.

165 Posted on 08/12/2001 11:15:49 PDT by WalterSkinner
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

He answered me with one of those "boy are we from different generation - because it was the right thing to do - moron" kind of looks.


hehe. i have to plead guilty to being able to display
that look. i spent a whole afternoon responding to
my oldest son’s question “so, dad, what’s so wrong
with clinton. following my extended rant... his response
was “whoa, sounds like the mafia.”

point is, those kind of connections (click!) are what
make and keep history alive. it’s neat your dad would
share his war experience with you. my dad doesn’t
want to talk about it.... and that’s understandable, i guess.

regards.

166 Posted on 08/12/2001 11:27:15 PDT by glock rocks
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | Top | Last ]


To: lgllady

I'm very sorry that happened to you. It seems that Southern Cal. is destined to be the flash point for the next civil war.

167 Posted on 08/12/2001 13:30:09 PDT by 55andlovingit
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | Top | Last ]


To: boris

Suppose an "immigrant", as his first action, violates the law?...for example, by becoming an illegal immigrant? Do you welcome him then?

No.

Do they get to break one law for free, and then have to "obey common law"? Does the one crime not count?

Everyone must obey common law, or face the consequences. Every crime counts.

If they go on welfare...or drop a kid on the ground on this side of the border (the kid becomes a citizen, eligible for all sorts of goodies provided by taxpayers)...is this still OK with you?

The immigration qualification that I articulated - and that you presumably read, having copied it to your post - is self-sufficiency. Welfare would be state dependency, and not something I would support.

Just curious.

I proposed a simple, straightforward immigration policy. It permits market forces to regulate immigration. It does not permit welfare or law-breaking.

168 Posted on 08/12/2001 13:52:52 PDT by John Harris
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | Top | Last ]


To: willyone

Being that she was born in Paris of French parents I would expect her to be quite European in appearance. Makes sense no?

No... She is "European" in appearance, but so what? Her father was a Polish diplomat, her mother a Mexican. But being born in another country doesn't preclude being a perceptive observer of one's country -- William F. Buckley, for example, is a Mexican immigrant.

Someone back there attacked the author for being a PRD member, therefore, a "commie". WHile the PRD's founder's father, Lazaro Cardenas did nationize the oil industry (which he had to do because of the 1917 Mexican constitution -- Mexico paid the oil companies for their properties), that doesn't make him a communist -- the concept of public ownership of subsoil rights existed both in Spanish and Aztec law long before anyone even thought of Karl Marx. I believe it was Lopez Portillo who nationalized the banks, and that was a mistake still being rectified.

Anyway, PRD includes "socialists" but typically Mexican, it's also the reformers from the old PRI party -- in the US, it would be sort of a weird coalition between Ross Perot, Jesse Jackson and John McCain.

169 Posted on 08/12/2001 13:53:01 PDT by Teza
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 164 | Top | Last ]


To: sarcasm

Nice map, see reply 102. Soon they'll be throwin' lead.

170 Posted on 08/12/2001 14:14:26 PDT by 55andlovingit
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

This may explain why almost every WORKING Mexican immigrant I have personally met (and they are many) has embraced this country with such fervor. I don't blame them for leaving Mexico one bit.

I don't blame them either. But I fear that when they come to America, they'll eventually end up with the vote, and they'll vote for the Democrats as the 'Party of the People.' Then we'll end up with two hopelessly corrupt governments instead of just one.

Free trade and a strong 'guest worker' program would help teach Mexicans about how there's a better way to run a country, while also improving their economic conditions. At the same time, having these policies instead of an 'open border' would protect the American franchise from being diluted by an illegal invasion of voters who are -- let's face it -- ignorant about the mechanics of democracy, rule of law, and free enterprise.

The last thing any sane illegal immigrant should want is for California to come under the control of the government of Mexico. Then they would have to cross the border all over again!

171 Posted on 08/12/2001 15:13:26 PDT by 537 Votes
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

But trust me, each and every one of them is packed full a mythology regarding how these lands were once "theirs" and how the land was stolen from them"

some mythology:

1) read the book: The Milagro Beanfield War

2) Stories abound among the Chincanos of massacres of Latinos by Whites in the 1920's, turn of the century, etc., etc,

3) The Zoot Suit Riots ( everyone who thinks this sucession/autonomy is not an issue, should get a take on the Chicano POV of this event quite illuminating )

4) The Chicano POV of any land purchase/deal in the period 1848 to say 1900. There are Chicanos who can describe in minute "detail" the "exact" transaction of how such-and-such ranch was "stolen" by Anglos.

5) Anglos when they see a map for example of the California Ranchos circa 1820 see a hazy Romantic vision and perhaps they have visited a few dandified Missions. Chicanos when they see the same maps, will invarabily "know" one of the decendents of one of the Mexican/Spanish Hacienda families and think, man if it wasn't for those Anglos stealing my buddie's Ranchero, he'd be super rich instead of living in a 800 sq.ft. bungalow off the San Berdoo.

The Chicanos (and Latinos) have a completely parallel social, banking, business community. ANd it isn't because they don't speak English. I have found the most nationalistic Chicanos are those I grew up with in the 1960's who were completely assimilated and barely spoke Spanish at all. Now they speak with a self imposed Chicano accent

Trust me, this will be the single biggest issue facing the US. FreedomSurge is correct when he cites the Kosovo parallel.

1848 was not that long ago

172 Posted on 08/12/2001 15:57:59 PDT by vooch
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | Top | Last ]


To: Bernard Marx

All legal as far as I know....you know there are laws against accusing someone falsely....they provide the required documentation.

173 Posted on 08/12/2001 18:56:02 PDT by Impeach the Boy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 115 | Top | Last ]


To: Travis McGee

I do have two workers who came from rural areas, where there we NO schools, and they can read neither Spanish or English...but I am not sure if I trust the 95% are 7th grade grads stuff. I have worked with Mexicans in three states and have found very few who could not read Spanish, and most could read some English...(I am not saying that the 7th grade assertion is not true, just don't automatically trust what I read). It think, for the sake of this debate, it would be interesting to know the education lavel of the Germans, the Irish, the Cubans, etc who came to these shores. What was the education level of the majority at Plymouth Rock?

174 Posted on 08/12/2001 19:01:00 PDT by Impeach the Boy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 119 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

On this we will agree 100%:..there are TOO MANY ILLEGALS...My Mexican friends and co-workers KNOW how I feel about illegal immigration, and they know how much I appreciate how hard they work. You are right about the shear numbers being a problem. Those numbers are due to ILLEGALS, and this I oppose.

175 Posted on 08/12/2001 19:04:53 PDT by Impeach the Boy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 132 | Top | Last ]


To: FITZ

That's very true, you can see many who fly Mexican flags or display them on their cars,

Up in NY its the Puerto Ricans who fly the flags and put them on the cars, or hang PR oriented stuff from the antenna or front mirrors of the cars.

Highly obnoxious, IMO, esp. when you consider PR is just some protectorate of the USA.

THe Mexicans we have here seem pretty OK. Just wish they'd assimilate a bit, because generally they seem very hard working, clean cut, and keep to themselves.

176 Posted on 08/12/2001 19:38:52 PDT by Conservative til I die
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 67 | Top | Last ]


To: sarcasm

Saw your #93. Scary.

177 Posted on 08/12/2001 19:59:30 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | Top | Last ]


To: sarcasm

Saw your #93. Scary.

178 Posted on 08/12/2001 19:59:46 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | Top | Last ]


To: semper_libertas

We should provide a rifle and 400 rounds of ammunition to every captured illegal alien adult....then send them back to Mexico via similar covert routes from which they came..

I like it!

179 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:02:16 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | Top | Last ]


To: TexMex

Re your#140: Your insights are appreciated.

180 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:07:42 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 140 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Re your #158: If it matters, I'm from Idaho.

181 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:11:46 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

For the Haitians, we sent in troops and set up a new government for them.

Remember, we did that because of the huge exodus of Haitians. I believe the exodus from Mexico dwarfs the exodus from Haiti.

Lets organize resistance cells from the immigrants, arm them and help them establish a democratic, corruption-free, laissez-faire capitalist economy that would provide them jobs and ownership.

_______________________________________

"Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.”
--Thomas Jefferson

_______________________________________

...freedom is not free...

182 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:17:41 PDT by semper_libertas
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

Thanks for the thought. Its amazing how many people are using left-wing propaganda in order to support what they say is a "conservative" position. A minimum requirement around here is to get the facts straight, first... and then post.

183 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:31:18 PDT by TexMex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

If you know Mexican politics, you will surely know this lady is a member of the PRD, or the coalition of small communist and socialist groups brought together by Cuautemac Cardenas.

If you're going to correct something I've posted, start with what I posted. Aparently, you don't know very much about Mexican politics, but aren't reluctant to write about them. Par for the sourse, of late.

184 Posted on 08/12/2001 20:53:36 PDT by TexMex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 169 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Why don't we just offer to take Mexico as a new part of the USA.

185 Posted on 08/12/2001 21:04:01 PDT by A CA Guy
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: tranked

Nothing. I wasn't refering to you.

186 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:08:11 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 137 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

What would bother me is if I got some of my facts wrong.

You did.

Once I went to the LA Zoo...It was hard to tell the visitors from the residents.

Can you really not tell the difference between a human and a caged animal or were you just being racist?

187 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:16:18 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 139 | Top | Last ]


To: Brownie74

By the time I left LA in 1980, I was told by customers in the restaurant never to come into it again because I was on "their turf".

You have a different breed of cat out there in California than we have here. But, the end goal is the same. Aztlan!!

Silly. I won't even comment.

188 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:24:13 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | Top | Last ]


To: Conservative til I die

The Mexicans we have here seem pretty OK. Just wish they'd assimilate a bit,

From my 40 years experience in SoCal, don't hold your breath.

189 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:37:43 PDT by Pelham
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | Top | Last ]


To: 537 Votes

Then they would have to cross the border all over again!

Imagine what would happen if we put the border at the Mississippi River instead of the very narrow Rio Grande.

190 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:45:07 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

"On Latin America, the writer said, 'corruption is a lead weight on the region' and added that, 'the Latin American people do not have the leaders they deserve'."

On the contrary, the Latin American people do have the leaders they deserve.

Unfortunately, so do we.

191 Posted on 08/12/2001 22:49:46 PDT by Nuisance Value
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | Top | Last ]


To: x

The answer may be the creation of a new group or groups. I'm told that California's immigrants and Texas's come from very different parts of Mexico (South vs. North). Are we looking at the creation of new nationalities?

Interesting link and I think it's very true what he writes about the Mexican elite. We won't get new nationalities, but Mexicans aren't a monolith culture. The ones who value education and work and traditional religious values will succeed and fit in with middle class America. The ones who have no family values, a very high unwed teeenage pregnancy rate, and high drop-out rate will add to our inner-city problems. Many are not here long and end up in our prison system, they'll be part of a permanent criminal class. Hopefully we won't get many of the Mexican elite, those are the super criminals, they put the Mafia to shame.

192 Posted on 08/12/2001 23:01:47 PDT by FITZ
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 83 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

Wake up and smell the cock fight dandelion! A large number of illegal immigrants from mexico do not want to assimilate. They refuse to learn english. The cost to our society is $55,000.00 per head in illegals for social support programs, welfare, medical, education, incarceration, etc... The myth about them performing "valuable work ethics in areas no one else will work", is just that, a myth. Do you not realize that when you open up the floodgates to poor third worlders that our once great nation will no longer be great. America has a population of some 275 million people not 50 million. We cannot absorb these numbers without our infrastructure being eroded. Hey dandelion, Why don't we just open our borders up to all third world countries?

193 Posted on 08/12/2001 23:26:49 PDT by doc
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: gjenkins

Very well put, they don't have the intellect to oppose socialism. Just what the democrats want, an uneducated group of voters led by emotion based on their lies.

194 Posted on 08/12/2001 23:36:01 PDT by doc
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

"Once I went to the LA Zoo...It was hard to tell the visitors from the residents."

Can you really not tell the difference between a human and a caged animal or were you just being racist?

Actually, I just wanted to "rattle your cage" and "yank your chain"---so to speak. It was a cheap shot---but I couldn't resist. I'm surprised that you'd get all exited about it. I think this is the third time you've referred to it. Doesn't anything else on this thread bother you? Don't forget, you're the one that suggested that I should leave LA if I didn't like illegal aliens (I don't remember your exact words.) And you said you were "just teasing" when you called me "sneaky."

The word racist doesn't bother me. A racist is usually just someone who's telling what he thinks is the truth about someone else. The Left can't deal with logic and facts so they made it socially unacceptable to say anything bad about them. Illegal aliens, and their supporters, want to be able to do whatever they please and then shut up anyone who criticizes them. Mexicans should consider themselves fortunate if the truth is the only thing that they'll have to deal with before this invasion is over with. Goodnight.

195 Posted on 08/13/2001 00:16:21 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

I think this is the third time you've referred to it.

Quit the long winded defenses addressed to me and I'll not refer to it again.

You're new here, don't say racist things to "rattle cages" and people will take you more seriously.

196 Posted on 08/13/2001 00:26:07 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Mexico recovering lost territory via immigration.

Well DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When your government gives the go ahead to generational genocide through "legal abortion" this is what happens.

REPLACEMENT CITIZENS!!

Habla Espanol?? You better learn as we may be outvoted on any "English Only" crap
and just maybe we could get "Espanol as the First Language." LOL!!!!!!!!

Stupid Gringos. LOL!!!!

Badges?
We Don't Need No Stinking Badges,
CATO

197 Posted on 08/13/2001 00:27:57 PDT by Cato
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

The writer said that the pessimistic vision held by the late Mexican writer Octavio Paz on the Mexican as “loser", is, in her opinion, a relic of the past and today "Mexico is recovering the territories yielded to the United States by means of migratory tactics”.

I would have found this absolutely ridiculous during the PRI era. The majority of Mexicans, Chicanos and Americans of Mexican descent that I spoke with would have nothing to do with the Mexican Government, although they spoke highly of their homeland. However, now, under Fox, possibly one of the strongest leaders the people of Mexico have ever had, these individuals are being reached out to by the Mexican government. Illegal aliens from Mexico and their advocacy groups are reaching back and are quite vocal, at least here in the MidWest, about the promises that Fox has made. The legal residents and citizens of this country (Mexican descent), however, haven't said quite as much, with regards to Fox. Have you seen much the same in your part of the country?

198 Posted on 08/13/2001 12:58:03 PDT by skeptic1801
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

What'll they do? take the northern territories back and turn them to crap too?

199 Posted on 08/13/2001 13:02:22 PDT by Octavius
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: skeptic1801

Illegal aliens from Mexico and their advocacy groups are reaching back and are quite vocal, at least here in the MidWest, about the promises that Fox has made. The legal residents and citizens of this country (Mexican descent), however, haven't said quite as much

There's no reason the U.S. citizens of Mexican descent would have much to say. This really doesn't concern them as much as it does the Mexican nationals living here. Fox is no dummy -- he took advantage of the change in the Mexican electoral law that allowed for absentee ballots, and recognized that there were a heck of a lot of absentee Mexican voters residing in the US.

I don't completely trust Fox (I think he's putting too much faith in foreign capital, the same mistake Porfirio Diaz made in the early 20th century), but then I'm a US citizen, so what I say doesn't amount to much in Mexican politics.

Ms. Poniatowska does carry a lot of weight in Mexican political circles, however. It's interesting that a prominent member of the opposition PRD (the reform wing of the PRI, allied with some smaller leftist parties and a few indigenous-rights [indian] groups) is praising the leader of the opposition. In the U.S., this would be like the editor of the Nation praising Ronald Reagan. It's probably worth paying attention.

200 Posted on 08/13/2001 13:15:00 PDT by Teza
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | Top | Last ]


To: dandelion

of course they embrace the US, we give them food stamps, free health care (medicaid), free education 9 (?, free to those without real property of course), WIC, AFDC, subsidized housing (sect.8) all on the back on the US taxpayer. Whats not to like? Welcome to Northern Mexico....

201 Posted on 08/13/2001 13:29:30 PDT by Capt.YankeeMike
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | Top | Last ]


To: doc

Dear Doc. Dandelion has her head up her arse. Forget about convincing people that dont have to go out into the "real world" every now and then.....

202 Posted on 08/13/2001 13:39:17 PDT by Capt.YankeeMike
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | Top | Last ]


To: doc

Dear Doc. Dandelion has her head up her arse. Forget about convincing people that dont have to go out into the "real world" every now and then.....things look just fine to dandelion; from her perch on the chair at the pool.....

203 Posted on 08/13/2001 13:40:19 PDT by Capt.YankeeMike
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | Top | Last ]


To: Capt.YankeeMike

Hey Capt.YankeeMike (May 2001), this arse was on the line for you, organizing the election protests this last fall. I guess it's just that way with all you disruptors; you'd like to think you can come here and talk up a good race riot and get us worker bees out of the way, but while you were busy campaigning for Gore I was protesting on the streets for Bush with some very good Tejano friends of mine. Where were you?

Just so we have a few facts straight, make sure to read the above posts. I live around these folks, I work around these folks, and just because you and your friends in whine country happen to look over and think you're life might be smudged by some darker skin crossing the border, I'm not afraid. Lemme guess, you live in Texas, but at heart, you're a Yankee? Makes sense...

204 Posted on 08/13/2001 14:33:57 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 203 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

"Partially due to immigration. Right?"

Historically, immigrants built this country. The bad news is...it's now built out. We don't need millions and millions of new people to pick a few crops. And yes, jobs taken by low-paid immigrants could be filled by citizens...ask the African-American community or your local young adults. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem seeing less nannies in the affluent areas just so mom can find her self worth through employment. And I also wouldn't mind seeing the construction industry employ *tradesmen* again so I wouldn't be in a class action suit against my developer for abysmal construction.

205 Posted on 08/13/2001 14:46:46 PDT by A Navy Vet
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 136 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Can you really not tell the difference between a human and a caged animal or were you just being racist?

He could have seen a contingent from Hollywood or a SF tour group.

206 Posted on 08/13/2001 14:53:10 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

The bad news is...it's now built out.

Ever fly across the country?
We're far from "built out".

That doesn't mean I want to fill that space. I want to find solutions.
The best idea I've heard is to help Mexico support a strong economy.
With The Socialist PRI party finally out I think we have a wonderful opportunity.
Thanks for the reply.

207 Posted on 08/13/2001 15:00:23 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

Can you really not tell the difference between a human and a caged animal or were you just being racist?

He could have seen a contingent from Hollywood or a SF tour group.

Your homepage says you are slightly to the right of Pat Buchanan...

GoPatGo King of Less than One Percent.

208 Posted on 08/13/2001 15:07:51 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 206 | Top | Last ]


To: A Navy Vet

I'm with you all the way on that. It really sticks in my craw that SEVERAL of latest fatal construction accidents we have witnessed in the Metroplex involved immigrant Mexican workers (status unreported) at the bottom of an unsupported trench. Each time we've seen one on TV, my husband asks the same question - where are the supports? Nowhere to be seen. And these little gals that are hired as nannies for next to NOTHING just so someone can use them (and their own children) as a status symbol is not much better. There HAS to be a better way than how we are doing this now... and we've got to keep the criminal element out, while we're at it too.

209 Posted on 08/13/2001 15:38:21 PDT by dandelion
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 205 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

You seem to be more than a bit humorless.

GoPatGo King of Less than One Percent.

In your heart, you know he's right (remember that line?).
Is GW's NWO order your solution to the world's or even the subject of this tread's problem(s)?

210 Posted on 08/13/2001 16:04:58 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 208 | Top | Last ]


To: Poniatowska

Dear Poniatowska,

Mexicans used to own Texas, but now, they just mow it.

211 Posted on 08/13/2001 16:13:25 PDT by Carol-HuTex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

"Quit the long winded defenses addressed to me and I'll not refer to it again."

I wasn't defending my statements I was telling you how it was---in my opinion. And if you don't want my long-winded opinion addressed to you then you shouldn't ask me a question.

"You're new here, don't say racist things to "rattle cages" and people will take you more seriously."

As long as there are illegal aliens here and people painting pretty pictures of them, I'll be rattling cages. Get used to it.

"Thanks for illustrating the root of the problem. Racism, both here and in Mexico."

This is sad. You've been reading the postings at FR for the last ten months and you think the root of the (illegal immigration) problem is racism? Would you be in favor of a fenced-off area for White people so that we can be prevented from abusing the Brown people?

212 Posted on 08/13/2001 21:50:46 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

In your heart, you know he's right (remember that line?).

No, should I?

Is GW's NWO order your solution to the world's or even the subject of this tread's problem(s)?

Yes?

213 Posted on 08/13/2001 22:28:33 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 210 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Your comparing Hispanics to animals is NOT reflective of the vast majority Free Republic members.

This is sad. You've been reading the postings at FR for the last ten months.
Cheer up! I've been here since WW File and have seen your type manymanymany times.
You will either mellow out or go away.

214 Posted on 08/13/2001 22:37:23 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Hopeful hogwash and wishful thinking on her part. In my opinion, while many Hispanic immigrants are proud of their Mexican/Central and South American roots (as many European immigrants were/are), they all know what the score is when they plant themselves here, i.e., the historic and legal culture here is inherently more conducive to self-advancement than in their own homeland, hence, few of them really want to return to their homelands, especially true of their children.

(Also, isn't it ironic that the Spanish-speaking "radicals" in Mexico, Central and South America completely forget that their "indigenous" language and many of their existing customs and culture are actually rooted in Spain and Portugal -- European countries?)

215 Posted on 08/13/2001 22:47:45 PDT by wayne_shrugged
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

I "have seen your type manymanymany times. You will either mellow out or go away."

Thanks for the free analysis. Would you care to speculate which it will be and how long it will take?

Do you ever answer questions or do you just make announcements?

216 Posted on 08/13/2001 22:57:58 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 214 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Would you be in favor of a fenced-off area for White people so that we can be prevented from abusing the Brown people?

Think of less extreme was to solve the problem. Just as long as everyone understands the due process of law...and follows it, things will be fine.

217 Posted on 08/13/2001 22:59:33 PDT by TexMex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 212 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Do you ever answer questions

No. Oops! I guess I do.

218 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:06:24 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 216 | Top | Last ]


To: TexMex

"Just as long as everyone understands the due process of law...and follows it, things will be fine."

A law, to a Mexican, is just something that stands in the way of justice.

219 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:07:37 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 217 | Top | Last ]


To: Conservative til I die

Up in NY its the Puerto Ricans who fly the flags and put them on the cars, or hang PR oriented stuff from the antenna or front mirrors of the cars.

Same thing with Puerto Ricans here in Orlando. Now let me state that, yes, many many Puerto Ricans are working very hard, at two,three or even four jobs. I don't know the percentage on public assistance. But I do know that, with their great fecundity, they are bringing the Orange County school system to its knees. The main point is that they do NOT assimilate. Therein lies the problem. Parts of Otown look like the 3rd world. To Those of you that say this is racism, how multicultural is your neighborhood?

220 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:16:41 PDT by StockAyatollah
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Rather than speak for Mexicans, stick to speaking about your own understanding of due process, if you have an understanding of it.

221 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:21:30 PDT by TexMex
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

She ignores one thing: The pervasiveness of the American culture. The American culture is insideous. It creeps in to culture after culture. It even influences cultures that try to stem the tide such as the French and the Canadians. Hispanics that come here may never adopt our ways; but their children will. Generation after generation of immigrants has raised American children. The Hispanics are no different. Their children will be assimilated just like the children of our ancestors were. Resistance is fultile.

222 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:22:53 PDT by Redcloak
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

In your heart, you know he's right (remember that line?). No, should I?

Yes. It was a slogan from the Barry Goldwater campaign for president.

Is GW's NWO order your solution to the world's or even the subject of this tread's problem(s)?

Yes?

A honest response this may well cause you to hit the abuse button.

223 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:30:48 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 213 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

A law, to a Mexican, is just something that stands in the way of justice.

Explain, please.

224 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:43:22 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 219 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

A honest response this may well cause you to hit the abuse button.

I've only hit the abuse button once.
Recently for an idiot named La Raza.

I was kidding, I am not for NWO. NWO in America is liberal hocus pocus, in my opinion.

225 Posted on 08/13/2001 23:47:26 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 223 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Nice to know about your reluctance. If you're not for the NWO and the subugation of our sovreignty, how can you be a Bushie?.

226 Posted on 08/14/2001 01:20:01 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 225 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

Ms. Poniatowska does carry a lot of weight in Mexican political circles, however. It's interesting that a prominent member of the opposition PRD (the reform wing of the PRI, allied with some smaller leftist parties and a few indigenous-rights [indian] groups) is praising the leader of the opposition. In the U.S., this would be like the editor of the Nation praising Ronald Reagan. It's probably worth paying attention.

I will, thanks.

227 Posted on 08/14/2001 07:25:39 PDT by skeptic1801
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

...how can you be a Bushie?.

What makes you think I am a Bushie?
Because I voted for him and approve of his performance so far?

Are you a Gorie?

228 Posted on 08/14/2001 10:55:10 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 226 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

This woman is a hispanic expansionist nut case. I also have a different version of what constitutes a "highly educated" person. Many of the Mexicans are coming to flee the corruption and racism of Mexico. Many are good people but unfortunately don't have any formal education and cannot be strong contributors to the U.S. economy today. Maybe a century ago, when we needed workers, but not in the 21st century. WE have plenty of uneducated blue collar American citizens who can take care of the unskilled jobs. No matter what types of immigrants we allow into the U.S. we must have limits. We should make sure that all immigrants can speak English, will not become a public charge (this is the law but it's ignored also), and have a sponsor who will cover their expenses if the immigrant is not able to (seems like this is a law, too, but I'm not an expert). All immigrants should meet these qualifications but just because they do should not automatically qualify them entry. In a country of 285 million people with a high population growth rate, the limits need to be tight or we are going to destroy our environmental systems, open space, infrastructure, and so on (anyone think we need more cars on the road or more kids in the schools?). Look at what's happening in the high immigration areas. These principles are being ignored and as a result these areas are being turned into third world dumps. How about a 5-10 year moratorium on immigration then revisit immigration quotas? We need to move toward a stable population unless we want to grow forever. Anyone out there want to see us live in a nation as crowded as China or India?

229 Posted on 08/14/2001 11:06:04 PDT by armchair quarterback
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Are you a Gorie?

Look at my post name. With proper spacing, it's "right of Rush" (Limbaugh). It could have just as easily been "right of Buchanan".

230 Posted on 08/14/2001 14:31:27 PDT by rightofrush
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 228 | Top | Last ]


To: skeptic1801

"Fox, possibly one of the strongest leaders the people of Mexico have ever had,"

I agree fully and am a big fan of Fox's. I think he is doing everything he can to help his people and his nation, we need to help any way that does not fundamentally hurt the US.

"Illegal aliens from Mexico and their advocacy groups are reaching back and are quite vocal, at least here in the MidWest, about the promises that Fox has made. The legal residents and citizens of this country (Mexican descent), however, haven't said quite as much, with regards to Fox. Have you seen much the same in your part of the country? "

My bigest concern about amnesty is that it will forever turn the US over to the democrats. In the next couple of days I will post an article from my local paper on Chicano organization of the local "voters".

231 Posted on 08/15/2001 10:41:26 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

"This woman is a hispanic expansionist nut case. "

I don't think she is. Mexican's have had an inferiority complex vis a vi the US. My take is she is gloating a little bit about how the lowest classes are tiumphing over the US on a stealth basis where the elites got their tushes handed to them.

Even if you think she is a "nut case" keep in mind that she is a part of the Mexican mainstream.

232 Posted on 08/15/2001 10:59:05 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 226 | Top | Last ]


To: rightofrush

sorry reply ment for armchairquarterback

233 Posted on 08/15/2001 11:07:38 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 232 | Top | Last ]


To: Redcloak

"The American culture is insideous. It creeps in to culture after culture."

A good point. But, lets say we get 2 million new voters in one fell swoop, Are you willing to add 1.6 million new Democrats until such time as two generations from now (40 years) they vote republican (conservitave)?

234 Posted on 08/15/2001 11:14:06 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 222 | Top | Last ]


To: wayne_shrugged

"In my opinion, while many Hispanic immigrants are proud of their Mexican/Central and South American roots (as many European immigrants were/are),"

Agreed and nothing wrong with that.

"they all know what the score is when they plant themselves here, i.e., the historic and legal culture here is inherently more conducive to self-advancement than in their own homeland, hence, few of them really want to return to their homelands"

Won't agree with the "all", I have been running into a larger percentage of rateros than you but will maybe discuss on a new thread.

235 Posted on 08/15/2001 11:26:51 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 215 | Top | Last ]


To: Teza

"I don't completely trust Fox (I think he's putting too much faith in foreign capital, the same mistake Porfirio Diaz made in the early 20th century), but then I'm a US citizen, so what I say doesn't amount to much in Mexican politics"

If the US truely wishes to stop the illegal flow then it will take massive US investment in Mexico and I think Fox know's this. However, I don't know if that is possible under Mexican law. I will post an article shortly where this can be discussed.

236 Posted on 08/15/2001 11:27:00 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 200 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

But they're not voters. Illegals can't vote. Yes, the Dems would like them to vote, but they're too paranoid about La Migra catching them if they do. They habitually keep low profiles and voting illegally isn't a way to keep below the radar.

237 Posted on 08/15/2001 12:11:12 PDT by Redcloak
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 234 | Top | Last ]


To: Redcloak

"But they're not voters. Illegals can't vote. Yes, the Dems would like them to vote, but they're too paranoid about La Migra catching them if they do. They habitually keep low profiles and voting illegally isn't a way to keep below the radar."

They shouldn't be voters but a certain number will vote. The question is how many. My perspective is different from yours. A friend of mine ran for governor a few years back as a Democrat. I was the campaign treasurer. I do not and will not underestimate the Demos' power to get out the illegal vote.

I served on the board of directors for a Spanish language radio station with the publisher of my city's largest and oldest Spanish language newpaper. (Stated circulation 50,000) He is very,very bitter against the Gringo even though he has lived here over 40 years and is sucessful. Just last month I saw him on the Univision station talking about his voter registration effort - well in advance of the next election. There is no way he is not signing up illegals. He is very commited to increasing his own power. I don't think he is unique in my community and I don't think my community is unique.

The only check to date has been fear of la Migra. Even with community organization, this fear has kept the illegal voter participation rate down (but not 0). I submit to you that with any sort of amnesty by whatever name the participation rate will soar.

238 Posted on 08/15/2001 13:19:07 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 237 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

My bigest concern about amnesty is that it will forever turn the US over to the democrats. In the next couple of days I will post an article from my local paper on Chicano organization of the local "voters".

I have no doubt that will happen, especially if the newly legal begin voting. Let me know when you get your article up. I think it will be very revealing.

239 Posted on 08/15/2001 15:01:08 PDT by skeptic1801
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 231 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Of course some will vote, but not in numbers to help the "Reconquista". The fear of getting caught and deported is too high. Even if we gave resident status more liberally, that fear would be present. They start out with an ingrained fear of attracting government attention. The fear of being sent back just builds on that.

240 Posted on 08/15/2001 17:56:13 PDT by Redcloak
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 238 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

Won't agree with the "all", I have been running into a larger percentage of rateros than you but will maybe discuss on a new thread.

OK, you got me. What's "rateros"?

241 Posted on 08/15/2001 23:52:29 PDT by wayne_shrugged
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 235 | Top | Last ]


To: Redcloak

"Of course some will vote, but not in numbers to help the "Reconquista". "

Not in numbers to help the reconquista but in numbers to give the house,senate and white house. Had my friends efforts been in place before the last race my state would have gone to Gore and he would be the president. As to the rest, I think you vastly underestimate the number of illegals who will be voting.

242 Posted on 08/16/2001 09:22:38 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 240 | Top | Last ]


To: wayne_shrugged

"What's "rateros"? "

Had the term explained to me by someone at the tv station when we were showing a movie with dubious moral values. Mexico is a very tough place to live for a large amount of the population. Many of these people live by their wits and make their living through petty crime, hustling and putting it over on the man. They are called rateros - rat people. For many ratero is a pejoritive term, for others a term of pride. The movie we where showing was romanitcising the ratero.

In my opinion, virtually all of the "let all of Mexico move here because they are hard working and they love their families" crowd overly romanticize the native Mexican peasant. Somewhat like the noble American savage from a time gone by. There are good and bad in any crowd and I think a high percentage of the rateros are moving here.

243 Posted on 08/16/2001 09:35:27 PDT by FreedomSurge
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 241 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

My experience with them, at least here in So. Cal., is that they lay low and try to avoid attention. They won't even risk a speeding ticket!

On a side note: I saw a truck this morning with a sticker on the back window announcing the driver's "Aztec" pride. I've seen numerous T-shirts with the same sort of thing on them. And like all of the T-shirts, the sticker was in English.

"You will be assimilated.
Resistance is futile."

244 Posted on 08/16/2001 11:54:36 PDT by Redcloak
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 242 | Top | Last ]


To: vooch

I see that various minorities trouble you. Albanians, Mexicans. Are you a true American Vooch?

245 Posted on 08/18/2001 02:38:06 PDT by bluester
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Every other word out of your naive, ignorant mouth is the accusation of "racist." Someone needs to tell you the story of the boy who called wolf, as you obviously don't know what happens when people endlessly repeat the same smear, over and over and over and over again.

"By the time I left LA in 1980, I was told by customers in the restaurant never to come into it again because I was on "their turf". You have a different breed of cat out there in California than we have here. But, the end goal is the same. Aztlan!!" BREAK -- PRND writes ---> "Silly. I won't even comment."

Yes, reality is silly to people like you. It's silly when you learn about disturbing things happening which are buried in the back pages of the mass media, except maybe a link from Drudge. It's silly when you listen to people who have experienced harsh consequences to ridiculous policies, when things happen when they were promised otherwise. It's all a silly game, until it happens to you and your family. Then your world comes crashing down, the blinders lift, the eyes open. Blessed be the wise, who don't need personal tragedy to direct their opinions.

246 Posted on 08/18/2001 19:17:56 PDT by Franklin1776 (hhicorp@hotmail.com)
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

Our so called standard of living has nothing to do with immigration. Freedom & liberty are the unseen radioactive power that drive our system, under the best document of government yet created. And racist might not be such perjorative term, when the dictionary is used properly and the racist in question has high morals and respect for law and the rights of other races. The communist left has created racism as the newest & worst of the old Deadly Sins-#8 by count but moved ahead of all others to first. Behavioral sciences use some more interesting terms such as ethnocentricity, xenophobia, et al. Until the US was invented, history was merely a casualty report for the damage done humanity by government. A thread on Western Civilization, economic progress by virtue of religious principals ( as expressed in the instruments of government documents ), & racism might be interesting.

247 Posted on 08/19/2001 07:29:58 PDT by TEXICAN II
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 134 | Top | Last ]


To: TEXICAN II

Care to threaten me in public, asshole?
Freepmail isn't for warnings.

248 Posted on 08/19/2001 23:04:54 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 247 | Top | Last ]


To: FreedomSurge

California counties:

Charts above were made available by Paul of Atlanta.

"The sources are the U.S. Bureau of the Census. 1990 and 2000 figures are directly from the US Census Bureau website. The 1950 and 1960 figures were taken from the Historical United States Census Data website. The 1970 and 1980 figures were taken from the The Demographic Research Unit of the California Department of Finance. These used census data as their source".

249 Posted on 08/20/2001 23:28:25 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | Top | Last ]


To: PRND21

You're funnier than a barrel of monkeys...

250 Posted on 08/21/2001 00:27:06 PDT by Big Meanie
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 248 | Top | Last ]


To: Big Meanie

Nice chart, Ross.
What's so funny?

251 Posted on 08/21/2001 00:39:36 PDT by PRND21
[ Reply | Private Reply | To 250 | Top | Last ]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

[ Top | Latest Posts | Latest Articles | Self Search | Add Bookmark | Post | Abuse | Help! ]

FreeRepublic , LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
Forum Version 2.0a Copyright © 1999 Free Republic, LLC