jdev@conference.jabber.org - 2001/09/11
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[02:25] <WittwerFritz> anyone awaker here?
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[04:11] <sampsononline> hello
[04:11] <sampsononline> when do you all think we'll get VoIP?
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[06:55] <jedielite> good morning! =)
[06:58] <nikgus> morning :-)
[06:59] <jedielite> it's too early for humans to be awake
[07:00] <jedielite> (almost 7am)
[07:00] <jedielite> hehe
[07:00] <nikgus> not in Sweden :-) (2 pm)
[07:03] <jedielite> =)
[07:06] <jedielite> well i gotta run
[07:06] <jedielite> see ya later
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[08:17] <nikgus> A plane just crashed with world trade center...
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[08:44] * temas has changed the subject to: don't work, watch TV about this important event
[08:45] <bobeal> what event ?
[08:49] %% tcharron has joined
[08:50] <tcharron> Holy fucking shit..
[08:50] <tcharron> A 727 AND a 767
[08:50] <tcharron> Thats a big ass plane the 767
[08:50] <bobeal> where ?
[08:51] <temas> this is just way too big
[08:51] <temas> world trade center in new york
[08:51] <bobeal> they hit themselves above new york ??
[08:51] <temas> no, deliberately flew into the building
[08:51] <temas> aka a terrorist attack
[08:52] <tcharron> They where hijacked from Boston, and each of the World Trade towers where rammed into by a 727, and a 767
[08:52] <temas> that's the early reports at least
[08:52] <tcharron> The death count with this is going to be well over a thousand people..
[08:52] <tcharron> The early reports?
[08:52] <tcharron> I watched the second one!
[08:52] <tcharron> It was definatly a 767
[08:52] <tcharron> I happened to be watching it when the second hit..
[08:53] <bobeal> did they have an idea about who did that ?
[08:53] <tcharron> They where live at the scene when it happened..
[08:53] <tcharron> bobeal: No idea, this just happened a half an hour or so ago..
[08:53] <tcharron> Actually, more like 45 minutes
[08:54] <tcharron> Holy shit..
[08:54] <tcharron> The fucking pentagon is on fire..
[08:54] <tcharron> A fucking plane hit the pentagon!
[08:57] * tcharron has changed the subject to: don't work, watch TV about this important event - 2 Planes hit world trade center, pentagon engulfed in fire..
[08:57] <tcharron> Oh jesus..
[08:58] <tcharron> Theres smoke over Washinton DC..
[08:58] <tcharron> And there are bodies falling out of the buildings..
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[09:00] <ChatBot> [temas]: where's my entry?
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[09:02] <tcharron> Wow..
[09:02] <tcharron> All flights in the air have been ordered to land, and ALL flights are canceled..
[09:02] <temas> yeah
[09:02] <temas> unfortunately
[09:03] <tcharron> That was damned friggen smart
[09:03] <temas> the terrorists have partially succeeded
[09:03] <temas> terrorist goal #1
[09:03] <temas> create chaos,and cause panic
[09:03] <tcharron> Dude, someones gonna have their asses bombed for this
[09:03] <temas> that's my fear
[09:03] <temas> that this was foreign
[09:03] <tcharron> You know it was..
[09:03] <temas> yeah I feel it was
[09:04] <tcharron> Well, I suppose it might not be..
[09:04] <temas> it doesn't have a homegrown flair
[09:04] <tcharron> Well, then again, the Fed building I didnt think was native
[09:04] <temas> I thought it was
[09:04] <temas> too middle of nowhere
[09:05] <tcharron> Middle of nowhere?
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[09:05] <tcharron> IT WAS IN THE MIDDLE of a CITY dude..
[09:05] <temas> yeah I know
[09:06] <tcharron> Man, I wanna goto work, but I dunno what the AM news station is..
[09:06] <temas> yeah... I move my laptop into the living room
[09:07] <temas> moved
[09:07] <tcharron> It was incredible to see it when it happened, the second place..
[09:07] <tcharron> Err, plane
[09:07] <temas> every american should watch this.... this really is a pretty massive event
[09:07] <temas> yeah my Mom called my right as it was happening
[09:08] <tcharron> Theres going to be more..
[09:08] <tcharron> You just know it..
[09:09] <temas> analysis of this is hard
[09:09] <temas> I'm sure it's not for the specialists
[09:09] <temas> like I can do just about any electronic attack to the T
[09:09] <temas> but not physical
[09:10] <temas> holy fuck
[09:10] <temas> holy fuck
[09:10] <temas> did you fucking see that
[09:10] <temas> holy fuck
[09:10] <tcharron> HOLY SHIT
[09:10] <tcharron> Oh my fucking god..
[09:12] <temas> holy fucking shit
[09:13] <ocrampal> what happened?
[09:13] <nikgus> one of the trade center towers is collapsed...
[09:13] <temas> yeah
[09:13] <temas> depending on evacuation, people in it and what not
[09:14] <ocrampal> my god
[09:14] <nikgus> did it crash down on the streets?
[09:14] <temas> yeah
[09:14] <temas> the city is blanketed in smoke now
[09:15] <nikgus> and the other one is falling down as well?
[09:15] <temas> it was hit higher
[09:16] <temas> and appears more solid
[09:16] <temas> just a lot of smoke from the top
[09:16] <nikgus> man... this must we the worst terror attack so far...
[09:16] <temas> um, yeah
[09:17] <nikgus> f*ck...
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[09:18] <temas> there's a reason bush was put in air force one damn quick
[09:18] <temas> "the safest place in the world"
[09:18] <tcharron> Jesus christ
[09:20] <tcharron> Does cnn stream?
[09:20] <temas> dunno...
[09:20] <temas> probably not fast enough
[09:20] <tcharron> Cant get thru to their site..
[09:21] <temas> I wouldn't be able to go to work
[09:22] <tcharron> Pardon my french for the past hour or so..
[09:22] <tcharron> But holy fucking shit..
[09:22] <temas> fuck that
[09:22] <temas> this is insane
[09:22] <tcharron> The base that collasped it was a 737
[09:22] <tcharron> Err, the one that hit the base
[09:22] <tcharron> Oh man..
[09:22] <tcharron> The death count for this is gonna be huge
[09:22] <temas> don't even want to think about that
[09:23] <tcharron> Not to mention half the friggen fire fighters in NYC
[09:23] <temas> police, med evac, fire fighter
[09:24] <tcharron> A second explosion at the pentagon..?
[09:25] <tcharron> temas: What channel you watching?
[09:25] <temas> CNN & ABC
[09:25] <tcharron> Yea, I got CNBC
[09:25] <tcharron> Man, I'm just waiting..
[09:26] <tcharron> I hope its over, but I dont think it is..
[09:27] <tcharron> Ya know what, this is definatly international..
[09:29] <temas> I really think so, but I hate strong words like that
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[09:31] <carlb> This is the same as our country being under attack.
[09:32] <carlb> I would call it an accident if the Pentagon was not involved also.
[09:32] <temas> where are you?
[09:32] <carlb> I just woke up near Salt Lake.
[09:33] <carlb> I turned on the Today show and am watching now.
[09:33] * temas nods
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[09:34] <ChatBot> [pgmillard]: My client could whoop your client any day
[09:34] <carlb> Since an airplane was used in New York, this will send ripples throughout the country today.
[09:34] <pgmillard> _____dude____
[09:34] <tcharron> pgmillard: I'd say welcome, but that sounds entirely to happy..
[09:34] <pgmillard> carlb: all air traffic is shut down.
[09:34] <carlb> My friend works for SuperShuttle.
[09:34] <pgmillard> tcharron: *nod*
[09:34] <tcharron> Car Bomb outside the state department
[09:35] <pgmillard> tcharron: really?
[09:35] <carlb> He is going to be busy all day taking people home.
[09:35] * pgmillard can't get any feeds on the web.
[09:35] <temas> CNN and ABC seem to be on the ball really well
[09:35] <tcharron> ROTFL, I was told to stay home, becouse they all want to know whats going on, and I keep sending email updates, and they cant get thru to any news sites..
[09:36] <tcharron> Which suprises me..
[09:36] <pgmillard> I think our 'net might be maxing out or something.
[09:36] <temas> find a tv
[09:36] <carlb> tcharron, where are you?
[09:36] <pgmillard> temas: I'm at work...we've got a few radios.
[09:37] <tcharron> All international flights have been sent to Canada
[09:37] <tcharron> It sounds gory, but *ROTFL*
[09:37] <temas> this is all so intense having lived a military life for so long
[09:37] <carlb> all international flights, er, yup
[09:37] <temas> tcharron: I know what you mean
[09:37] <tcharron> 'They might have bombs, send them to Canada..'
[09:38] <tcharron> I feel nasty for thinking thats funny, but man..
[09:38] <pgmillard> tcharron: yeah
[09:38] <carlb> is ROTFL like FUBAR?
[09:38] <tcharron> Dude, they better close NASDAQ and the DOW
[09:38] <temas> they already did
[09:38] <temas> they've been closed for about an hour
[09:38] <tcharron> ROTFL..
[09:39] <tcharron> The International markets see heavy selling of airline stocks..
[09:39] <tcharron> Whoda thunk
[09:39] <temas> shit
[09:39] <temas> shit
[09:39] <temas> shit
[09:39] <tcharron> OMG!
[09:39] <temas> holy fuck!!!
[09:39] <temas> north tower is down
[09:39] <tcharron> Hoky fucking fuckshit!
[09:39] <temas> pretty much totally gone
[09:39] <temas> jno, it's totally down now
[09:39] <temas> fuck
[09:39] <temas> fuck
[09:40] <temas> they are both totally gone
[09:40] <carlb> there has been a declaration of war by terrorists.
[09:40] <temas> no, I would bet this is one cell
[09:40] <temas> just holy fuck
[09:41] <carlb> how can the *entire* building go down?
[09:41] <tcharron> *looks out window, and looks up, just in case..*
[09:41] <carlb> only the top 1/3 was hit.
[09:41] <temas> because of the massive weight of the top area collapsing down on it
[09:41] <tcharron> carlb: They took out the base, its a friggen skyscraper..
[09:41] <temas> so it causes that downwards force
[09:41] <temas> that doesn't stop
[09:41] <carlb> oh
[09:42] <tcharron> carlb: Dude, there are some of the largest buildings in NYC
[09:42] <pgmillard> temas: thats BS... there must have been some other explosion.
[09:42] <temas> I just watched it with my eyes
[09:42] <tcharron> temas: No, there was several explosions..
[09:42] * pgmillard nods to tcharron
[09:42] <tcharron> temas: Those towers are built to actually sway like 25 feet back and forth..
[09:42] <carlb> american air just confirm a hijacking.
[09:42] <temas> minor ones of gas if anything
[09:42] <temas> it wasn't just another massive explosion though
[09:42] <tcharron> They dont just fall that way
[09:43] <pgmillard> right...exactly.
[09:43] <tcharron> temas: Dude, have to ever been next to those buildings?
[09:43] <temas> yeah
[09:43] <tcharron> temas: A massive explosion can happen inside the building, and youd never see it..
[09:43] <temas> they are massive and strong, but they've been eating themselves too
[09:43] <temas> I guess it could
[09:43] <tcharron> I mean sure, perhaps not friggen nuke big, but thats one big bomb..
[09:43] <temas> how about we don't totally speculate =)
[09:44] <tcharron> HeHe
[09:44] <temas> no offense, but the streats look like fugging isreal
[09:44] <temas> israel
[09:44] <temas> and that's not cool
[09:44] <tcharron> Yea..
[09:54] %% tcharron has set the topic to: don't work, watch TV about this important event - 2 Planes hit world trade center, pentagon engulfed in fire..
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[09:55] <tcharron> OMG man..
[09:56] <et> no joke, what's going on?
[09:56] <tcharron> There are firefighters still alive under the rubble..
[09:56] <temas> et: get to a tv and turn it on
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[09:56] <ChatBot> [qmacro]: GUI? We don't need no stinkin' GUI!
[09:56] <tcharron> et: The world trade center is gone, both towers..
[09:56] <tcharron> et: The pentagon is an inferno
[09:56] <qmacro> tcharron: have they collapsed now?
[09:56] <et> There must be thousands in there. I've been to those things, they're never empty.
[09:57] <et> Yeah, both of the towers are gone.
[09:57] <qmacro> jeez
[09:57] <tcharron> The firefighters radios have people screaming, the guys still stuck under the rubble..
[09:57] <tcharron> et: They where rammed by a 727 and a 767, plus an unconfirmed third plane
[09:58] <et> I hadn't heard about the third, but the second one was live on tv.
[09:58] <qmacro> I'm just hearing about another plane crash (a press plane?)
[09:59] <et> They've got f16's protecting the white house now.
[09:59] <tcharron> qmacro: Yes, in Penn..
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[09:59] <tcharron> et: They have F18s gaurding NYC
[09:59] <et> Part of the pentagon just collapsed.
[09:59] <qmacro> what the hell is going on? Is this the start of ww3?
[10:00] <tcharron> qmacro: I wish I knew../
[10:00] <et> Man, they've been planning this one for a while. Organized group(s) for sure.
[10:00] <tcharron> qmacro: But whoever did this is dead..
[10:00] <tcharron> I*LL go friggen shoot them in the nuts
[10:00] * qmacro goes upstairs to turn on the TV
[10:01] <tcharron> Sometimes, cruel and unusual punishement is a VERY GOOD thing I think..
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[10:01] <et> I think that's what we're getting right now...
[10:02] <tcharron> et: Whats that?
[10:03] <tcharron> I'm suprised they didnt take out Wall street..
[10:03] <temas> wow
[10:03] <temas> we're in a full fledged military alert
[10:04] <temas> level Delta in DC and Charlie elsewhere
[10:04] <tcharron> temas: Hell ya..
[10:04] <et> <tcharron> "cruel and unusual punishment"
[10:04] <temas> if you're a military person
[10:04] <tcharron> temas: Well, that level is the Terrorist altert
[10:04] <tcharron> temas: It's not a defcon level or anything..
[10:04] <tcharron> temas: But hell ya..
[10:04] <temas> yeah I know... that's why this is all so intense for me
[10:04] <temas> having lived the military life for so long
[10:05] <tcharron> temas: Yea..
[10:05] <et> CNN just said that there are on ave 50000 that work in the WTT daily.
[10:05] <temas> yeah they said that # earlier too
[10:06] <et> Isreal is evacing all it's dip posts.
[10:06] %% CLM has joined
[10:06] <flash> well guys - I'd like to send my condolences to you guys over there - I really feel for all those that were trapped in the WTC or on the aircraft
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[10:07] <tcharron> At this point, never mind that.. All the poor people under the rubble..
[10:07] <et> This isn't ending here either...
[10:07] <et> Do they think we're going to run away now?
[10:08] <temas> terrorists don't think that
[10:08] <et> terrorists don't seem to think.
[10:08] <temas> oh they think a lot
[10:08] <temas> very smart people, they create chaos, paranoia and panic originally
[10:08] <et> indeed
[10:09] <temas> AA will have a press conference shortly
[10:09] <temas> ok the CBN guy is a quack
[10:09] <CLM> i guess i forget sometimes that there is pure evil in the world
[10:09] <temas> he just said god told him this was going to happen
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[10:09] <temas> I'm sorry, but I don't believe him
[10:09] <et> Me neither.
[10:10] <bobeal> who's AA ?
[10:10] <temas> american airlines
[10:10] <temas> one of the airplanes was theres
[10:10] <bobeal> ah ok
[10:10] <flash> do they know if there were civilians on the planes?
[10:11] <temas> I imagine there were
[10:11] <temas> but nothing has been said yet
[10:11] <flash> I cant hit any of the news sites over here
[10:12] <temas> yeah I'm sure they are swamped
[10:12] <nikgus> what's happening with the airplane on it's way towards NY now?
[10:12] <temas> nikgus: nothing new I've heard yet
[10:12] <et> They're diverting all internatl flights to Canada.
[10:12] <temas> but US fighters are in the air over NY and Pentagon
[10:12] <nikgus> is it comfirmed that there actually is one on its way?
[10:12] <temas> no
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[10:14] * temas has changed the subject to: don't work, watch TV about this important event - 2 Planes hit world trade center, pentagon on fire, world trade center has collapsed
[10:14] <temas> for anyone that joins and doesn't know
[10:14] * nikgus has changed the subject to: don't work, watch TV about this important event - 2 Planes hit world trade center, pentagon on fire, world trade center has collapsed, state department carbomded...
[10:16] <temas> they don't think that's true anymore, but it can stay for now
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[10:16] * temas has changed the subject to: don't work, watch TV about this important event - 2 Planes hit world trade center, pentagon on fire, world trade center has collapsed
[10:17] <carlb> let's trim this back a bit.
[10:17] <carlb> thanks temas
[10:17] <temas> they just said that has been said to be not true
[10:17] <temas> stupid lag
[10:18] <et> This is the most horrible thing I've ever seen
[10:18] <tcharron> Yeppers..
[10:19] <temas> yeah
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[10:19] <et> The plane in PA was headed towards NYC
[10:20] <carlb> my brother thinks that it is possible that it was shot down.
[10:20] <carlb> by us
[10:20] <tcharron> carlb: Yea..
[10:20] <et> could be.
[10:20] <temas> any plane that can't identify itself in the sky right now could definately be shot down
[10:20] <tcharron> 'spec considering that they reported a hijacked plane was headed to DC
[10:20] <et> and will be, I'm sure
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[10:21] <ChatBot> [pgmillard]: My client could whoop your client any day
[10:21] <temas> especially since all flights are grounded, and supposed to land at the closest airport
[10:21] <carlb> here's a pic url
[10:21] <carlb> http://a799.ms.akamai.net/3/799/388/9ce0ee0b875c5d/www.msnbc.com/news/1160603.jpg
[10:22] <carlb> it's from msnbc.
[10:23] <carlb> even in Salt Lake, school districts are considering closing school today, as a precaution.
[10:23] <temas> tons of the large buildings in the us have been evacuated
[10:23] <pgmillard> can anyone get thru to any online newsfeeds??
[10:24] <temas> gov says it is overseas now, not local
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[10:24] <temas> as wel all guessed
[10:24] <carlb> msnbc you can get, but
[10:24] <carlb> you have to work it.
[10:24] <carlb> hit refresh a couple time.s
[10:25] <carlb> here
[10:25] %% CLM has joined
[10:25] <CLM> the events of today make me sick
[10:26] <CLM> i couldn't BELIEVE IT when i saw the WTC collapse...
[10:27] <carlb> MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS
NEW YORK, Sept. 11 Americans reeled in horror Tuesday as the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history sent planes crashing into the World Trade Center in New York, toppling the twin 110-story towers. An explosion later rocked the Pentagon in Washington. The White House, the Pentagon and the Capitol building were evacuated. Military jets patrolled the skies above both cities. The FAA grounded all civilian aircraft nationwide, but not before reports of another large aircraft crashing in Western Pennsylvania. President Bush vowed to hunt down the folks who committed this act.
MSNBC STAFF AND WIRE REPORTS
NEW YORK, Sept. 11 Americans reeled in horror Tuesday as the worst terrorist attack in U.S. history sent planes crashing into the World Trade Center in New York, toppling the twin 110-story towers. An explosion later rocked the Pentagon in Washington. The White House, the Pentagon and the Capitol building were evacuated. Military jets patrolled the skies above both cities. The FAA grounded all civilian aircraft nationwide, but not before reports of another large aircraft crashing in Western Pennsylvania. President Bush vowed to hunt down the folks who committed this act.
THE FATE OF those in the twin skyscrapers was not immediately known. Authorities had been trying to evacuate the thousands of people who work in the twin towers, but many were thought to be trapped. I swear Ive never seen anything like this, said MSNBCs Ashleigh Banfield. This whole place is like a complete war zone.
At the Pentagon, eyewitnesses saw an aircraft crash into part of the sprawling complex. Walls were later seen to have collapsed.
An earlier report of a car bomb exploding outside the State Department was later denied.
In New York, the aircraft struck minutes apart, starting fires and sending smoke billowing out of the skyscrapers. The top of the south tower later collapsed onto the street below.
The first crash happened shortly before 9 a.m. ET.
MSNBC.com reporter Martin Wolk, who was inside one of the towers, said the lights flickered and then a loud bang was heard. People panicked and started to flee the building.
When they reached the lobby, smoke started to fill the building and people could see debris falling and many cars outside were damaged. It was sheer pandemonium, people were screaming and crying, afraid to go outside because of the falling debris, Wolk said. We looked up and it looked like the top 20 floors were in flames.
I was going to paste the story, but can't
[10:27] <carlb> oh there.
[10:28] <CLM> ya
[10:28] <CLM> can you believe it?
[10:28] <CLM> they have shut down the airports in chicago
[10:28] <CLM> and they have done some evacuating here
[10:28] %% et has left
[10:28] <temas> they are all grounded
[10:28] <carlb> all airports are shut down.
[10:28] <CLM> ya.. by the FAA
[10:29] <CLM> they have evacuated the Sears Tower and the John Hnacock building.. the 2 largest in chicago
[10:30] <carlb> I would have gotten out on my own from one of those.
[10:30] <CLM> this is like a bad movie
[10:30] %% ocrampal has left
[10:30] <carlb> very bad.
[10:30] <temas> it's very close to a Tom Clancy novel
[10:30] <Dizzy> temas: yes.._very_ close
[10:30] <temas> scarily close
[10:30] <Dizzy> temas: same concept, different building
[10:30] <temas> just not the whitehouse
[10:30] <CLM> the level of sophistication to pull this off is amazing
[10:30] <carlb> My girlfriend works in San Francisco, and she was wondering if she should go to work.
[10:31] <tcharron> CLM: It wouldnt be that hard, amazingly..
[10:31] <carlb> She works near the tallest buildings in SF.
[10:31] <CLM> what worries me is that some plane was on it's way to chicago and that would be arriving around now and hit a building...
[10:31] <tcharron> CLM: No, they grounded all planes..
[10:31] <CLM> tcharron, no, not really.
[10:31] <temas> two of the flights were from AA
[10:31] <tcharron> CLM: They basically stated they all land, anything left up would be considered a threat..
[10:32] <temas> Flight 11 from Boston to LA
[10:32] <temas> flight 77 from dulles to LA
[10:32] <temas> both down
[10:32] <tcharron> Theres a bomb reports in buildings all over..
[10:33] <carlb> possible bomb in High School near WT center.
[10:33] <CLM> Tom clancy couldn't write anything this good =)
[10:33] <tcharron> Yeppers..
[10:33] <tcharron> *sigh*
[10:33] <tcharron> I suppose I need to get to work
[10:33] <temas> CLM: he did, unfortunately
[10:33] <carlb> title?
[10:33] <CLM> temas, then again, i haven't read much of his work.. what are you referring to?
[10:33] <temas> was it without remorse?
[10:33] <temas> the one before executive decision
[10:33] <temas> but you have to read executive decision to really get into this part
[10:33] <CLM> i've only read "Clear and present danger" and that was years ago
[10:34] * pgmillard notes that slashdot is still up + running
[10:34] <tcharron> AA 11 and 77, United 175 93
[10:34] <tcharron> pgmillard: Up and running, but screwed up..
[10:34] <temas> yeah UA for the Penn flight that is down
[10:34] <tcharron> pgmillard: Cant login or handle coockies in some cases..
[10:34] <CLM> which is the Unitd gliht??
[10:34] <CLM> flight
[10:34] <temas> the one in PA
[10:34] <tcharron> CLM: United 175 and United 93
[10:34] <tcharron> OMG..
[10:35] <tcharron> They got a cell phone call from someone on the Penn flight
[10:35] <Dizzy> tcharron: dude..what..?
[10:35] <carlb> code red was declared on the Capitol Hill.
[10:36] <carlb> source: NBC
[10:36] <CLM> Penn flight???
[10:36] <tcharron> Bah, It's Threatcon Delta
[10:36] <temas> yeah delta for DC, charlie for the rest of the US
[10:36] <tcharron> CLM: Yea, the plane that crashed in Penn.
[10:36] <pgmillard> CLM: yeah, another flight went down.
[10:36] <CLM> what? in addition to the pentagon crash?
[10:36] <tcharron> temas: No, they just declared a worldwide threatcon Delta
[10:36] <tcharron> CLM: Yes
[10:36] <temas> ah missed that
[10:37] * CLM thinks the end of the world is near..
[10:37] <carlb> What is threatcon Delta?
[10:37] <tcharron> CLM: Naw..
[10:37] <temas> highest level terrorist threat
[10:37] <CLM> tcharron, i hope not =)
[10:37] <tcharron> carlb: One of the highest military states of alert..
[10:37] <Dizzy> CLM: no..it sucks, but no
[10:37] <temas> it's like defcon, but not for nuclear war
[10:37] <CLM> well
[10:37] <tcharron> carlb: Aka, everyone on Military bases are being issued guns..
[10:38] <carlb> ok
[10:38] <CLM> suppose the world was going to end.. everyone would be like "no, it's just a terrorist threat.." and would be in denial
[10:38] <temas> yeah, militar bases and borders are closed
[10:38] <temas> weapons are issued
[10:38] <temas> and vehicles are mobilized
[10:38] <pgmillard> tcharron: wow.. not surprising I guess.
[10:38] <tcharron> CLM: And if it is, it doesnt matter, so I'll go with deniel.. 8-P
[10:38] <carlb> There's an airbase about 20 miles from us.
[10:38] <CLM> tcharron, haha
[10:38] <CLM> carlb, where are you located/
[10:38] <tcharron> Yea, right now, gasmasks and guns are being passed out to all armed forces worldwide..
[10:38] <carlb> Capitol Hill is basically shut down.
[10:39] <CLM> gee.. i wonder how the stock market is going to fair today =)
[10:39] <carlb> Ogden, UT
[10:39] <temas> it's closed
[10:39] <CLM> temas, yes i know
[10:39] <carlb> about 50 min N of Salt Lake
[10:39] <tcharron> And if your caught onbase without ID, your detained under guard.. If your trying to get in, they are authorized to kill you..
[10:39] <pgmillard> CLM: it's closed.
[10:39] <pgmillard> CLM: so is London.
[10:39] <tcharron> Not true.. Markets are closed, but trading continues..
[10:39] <CLM> pgmillard, so much for the rest of the week really..
[10:39] <temas> yeah, even during low level threat levels bases are sealed up
[10:40] <tcharron> That means that the floor is closed, but trading can continue
[10:40] <temas> it actually takes very little to seal the bases
[10:40] <tcharron> But I've heard different things from different markets
[10:40] <tcharron> OMG..
[10:40] <temas> I've had it happen many times
[10:40] <tcharron> The FAA cant find some planes..
[10:40] <CLM> tcharron/temas, what channel are you watching??
[10:40] <tcharron> CLM: CNBC
[10:40] <temas> ABC, CNN, CNBC
[10:40] * pgmillard thinks he's heading home.
[10:40] <tcharron> The FAA still cant account for some planes..
[10:41] <CLM> tcharron/temas, thanx
[10:41] <carlb> how can trades continue with the markets closed?
[10:41] <CLM> wh would even WANT to trade? that would be so stupid
[10:41] <pgmillard> carlb: apparently just the floor closed.. not the market.
[10:41] <carlb> do you mean instanet?
[10:41] <tcharron> carlb: Can I give you a dollar for 4 quarters when the banks are closed? 8-P
[10:41] <tcharron> carlb: Theres alot more then just Instanet
[10:41] <tcharron> But yea, Instanets prob still trading..
[10:42] <tcharron> Along with Archipeligo, ElephantX, Island, etc..
[10:42] <CLM> a 767.. not a tiny plane by any means..
[10:42] <CLM> and a 757
[10:42] <tcharron> There are many aspects to 'The Markets'..
[10:42] <tcharron> Yeppers..
[10:42] <carlb> CLM is right about trading.
[10:42] <pgmillard> 767 is like 270 people.
[10:43] <CLM> pgm, yes.. but it had about half of capacity
[10:43] <tcharron> 767 Max loaded I think is 320 including the staff of the plane
[10:43] <tcharron> IIRC
[10:43] <CLM> tcharron, i think that's a little on the high side
[10:43] <tcharron> DoH!
[10:43] <tcharron> Nevermind, the SEC just said that all trading markets are closed..
[10:43] <tcharron> And they're the final word..
[10:43] <CLM> the 757 had only 81 passengers...
[10:44] <pgmillard> most of the newer 7x7 planes come in varying sizes :)
[10:44] <CLM> flight 175 is missing... (a 767).. boston to LA...
[10:44] <temas> one UA flight "unaccounted for"
[10:44] <CLM> pgm, yes.. there are several versions of the 747 alone...
[10:44] <pgmillard> have they confirmed it was a plane that hit the Pent?
[10:44] <tcharron> Manufacturer: Boeing (United States)
First Flown: 1985
Price Quote (1998, Boeing): $97.5 - 108.5 M (767-300ER) -- US$
Length: 176.1 ft (54.9 m)
Wingspan: 156.1 ft (47.6 m)
Cruising Speed: 850 km (531 mi)/hr
Range: 11 450 km (7 120 mi)
Passenger Capacity: 290-350
[10:44] <pgmillard> or a bomb?
[10:44] <CLM> pgm, yes from what i understand..
[10:44] <CLM> pgm, plane..
[10:44] <tcharron> pgmillard: Nope, it weas one or the other..
[10:44] * Dizzy departs for home
[10:45] <tcharron> pgmillard: But no confirmation..
[10:45] * pgmillard too
[10:45] %% pgmillard has left
[10:45] <CLM> i heard on NPR it was a plane..
[10:45] <temas> later guys
[10:45] <qmacro> temas: *another* one?
[10:45] %% Dizzy has left
[10:45] <tcharron> There have been 4 confirmed planes that went down
[10:45] <CLM> 2 in NY, 1 in DC... 1 in Penn
[10:45] <tcharron> Which means one either hit the pentagon, or hit the base of the World Trade Center
[10:46] <tcharron> Ahh..
[10:46] <tcharron> Yea..
[10:46] <tcharron> Lost track of one..
[10:46] <tcharron> What you said
[10:46] <CLM> a reporter said the pentagon plane cut a notch in the pentagon.
[10:46] <CLM> through all 6 floors or what not
[10:46] <tcharron> There are more then 6 floors there..
[10:46] <tcharron> Theres a whole underground complex
[10:47] <CLM> tcharron, i'm sure...
[10:47] <tcharron> NO, really there is..
[10:47] <tcharron> Theres a small Mall under there..
[10:47] <temas> the underground complex is partially documented
[10:47] <CLM> tcharron, how big is the undergtround part?
[10:47] <tcharron> CLM: No one knows for sure..
[10:48] <tcharron> CLM: But its friggen huge
[10:48] <CLM> hmm...
[10:48] <tcharron> CLM: Alot of the lower floors are actually hardened
[10:48] <tcharron> And then the rumors..
[10:48] <CLM> again.. this is all unsubstantiated...
[10:48] <CLM> you don't know for sure
[10:48] <temas> part of the underground is true
[10:48] <CLM> we can only guess...
[10:48] <tcharron> Yea, part of the underground you can go see on a tour
[10:49] <CLM> i'm sure they also have secret escape tunnels as well =)
[10:49] <tcharron> No, its there man, the mall part is where ya buy suvinears..
[10:49] <miker> According to http://www.drudgereport.com one of the United planes down in PA (presumeably shot down?) was headed for Camp David perhaps as this is the anniversary of the Camp David Accords a few years back.
[10:49] <CLM> man, did you guys see the tower crumble... my heart sank
[10:49] <CLM> ??
[10:49] <CLM> miker, that was YEAR ago.. 1993 ish
[10:49] <miker> Yep - anger can last a long time.
[10:50] <tcharron> I met people that worked there..
[10:50] <tcharron> When I worked for ElephantX
[10:50] <CLM> i'm not really an expert on what goes on in the middle east.. but can anyone here give a historical perspective as to why there's all this violence.. i know it spans many hundreds of years..??
[10:50] <miker> thousands...
[10:50] <tcharron> I gotta go..
[10:50] <CLM> miker, yes...i can believe that.
[10:51] <CLM> tcharron, see ya.. take care
[10:51] <temas> religion
[10:51] <qmacro> snap
[10:51] <tcharron> miker: The two buildings would have had over 20k people in them
[10:51] %% tcharron has left
[10:51] <CLM> temas, i'm looking for something omre specific =)
[10:51] <miker> I've heard up to twice that amount - but rumors are wild right now.
[10:51] <CLM> i heard 50k
[10:52] <temas> I've studied it a bit, but I'm no expert
[10:52] <temas> plenty of books on it
[10:52] <CLM> temas, well, what do you know... ?
[10:52] %% bobeal has left
[10:52] <temas> mostly the religion side of it
[10:52] <temas> and the claims to holy lands
[10:52] <CLM> which holy lands?
[10:52] <CLM> what are there names?
[10:52] <qmacro> CLM: can't be that specific when explaining something that has been happening over hundreds of years...
[10:52] <CLM> what are the referred to as.. ?
[10:52] <temas> yeah I mean there are tons of lands in dispute
[10:53] <temas> israel obviously has a large share
[10:53] <temas> but that's just the tip of it
[10:53] %% ocrampal has joined
[10:54] <miker> It goes back to Isaac and Ishmael the sons of Abraham. One a son "of promise" as he is called - Isaac - the other the son from his concubine. They've fought ever since.
[11:00] <temas> the Logan guy is evasive in his answers
[11:01] <temas> which is usual for any air mess
[11:01] <temas> there was an emergency landing safely completed in Cleveland
[11:02] <temas> potential bomb on the plane
[11:02] <temas> and it might be the missing UA flight
[11:03] <CLM> miker, hmm
[11:03] <temas> Tom Clancy is on CNN
[11:04] * qmacro can only wonder about the nature of the retaliation
[11:04] * temas ndos
[11:04] <temas> nods too
[11:04] %% dradb has joined
[11:05] <CLM> temas, what's Clancy saying?
[11:05] <temas> just to keep our religious tolerance high
[11:06] <temas> and the irony that he had written about it
[11:06] <CLM> religion..BAH
[11:06] <qmacro> I mean, if it's a specific country/govmt, then the retaliation has a focus. But what if it's an country-independent faction or something?
[11:06] %% dradb has left
[11:06] <CLM> qmacro, my feeling is that it's probably country-sponsored.. but icould be wrong
[11:06] <temas> qmacro: it will be a real test of our govt to see what they do
[11:07] <qmacro> indeed
[11:07] <CLM> temas, that is indeed a dumb test...
[11:07] <temas> a lot of trials under fire are
[11:11] %% Basic has joined
[11:11] <Basic> Any word on when yahoo-t will be back online?
[11:11] <temas> no clue, and honestly don't care right now
[11:12] <CLM> the ramifications of this are going to alst many many years...
[11:12] * temas nods
[11:12] %% Basic has left
[11:12] %% Basic has joined
[11:12] <CLM> not to mention, the investigation to pinpoint those parties involved..
[11:13] <Basic> Actually temas you should care, IM is good way to contact family and friends in the situation since the phone lines are all busy.
[11:13] <CLM> you do have a point Basic..
[11:14] <temas> I meant in the way that I don't care enough to take the time to search out any errors in it
[11:14] <temas> I did cycle it when you said something
[11:14] <qmacro> Basic, that's rather disingenuous. I'm sure temas cares about contacting familites...
[11:15] <Basic> I never said he didn't care. I said he should care that yahoo-t is down because it provides an alternate communication path
[11:18] <carlb> Flame alert!
[11:18] %% rod has left
[11:18] <qmacro> carlb: naaah :)
[11:19] <carlb> Basic, if you really need yahoo to contact loved ones, you would either quickly download yahoo's software or..
[11:19] <carlb> Call them directly with the the old-fashioned telephone.
[11:19] <Basic> carlb, I have yahoo IM
[11:19] <Basic> Gov't requested not to use phone
[11:20] <carlb> This is not a nationwide earthquake.
[11:20] * temas runs to shower
[11:22] %% nikgus_ has joined
[11:22] <carlb> I'm done.
[11:22] %% Basic has left
[11:23] <carlb> I didn't mean to scare him away.
[11:24] %% Erik has joined
[11:24] %% flash has left
[11:27] %% et has joined
[11:27] %% et has left
[11:28] <carlb> The navy has ordered ships to be off-shore from NY and Washington DC.
[11:29] %% gtm has joined
[11:31] <carlb> I guess I better go.
[11:31] %% pluto has left
[11:31] * temas returns
[11:31] %% carlb has left
[11:35] <qmacro> I think perhaps I scared him off :-(
[11:36] %% flash has joined
[11:36] <temas> heh
[11:37] %% Erik has left
[11:38] <qmacro> mmm
[11:38] <qmacro> REBOL
[11:39] <temas> local schools are starting to close
[11:40] <qmacro> all over the US, or in the affected areas?
[11:40] <temas> dunno, but I just saw a ticker on the screen for the schools here in our town
[11:41] <temas> my mom didn't let the rest of our family go to school
[11:41] <temas> because it's such an important event
[11:41] <miker> From what I've seen it's pretty sporatic. I work for the schools here and though they thought about closing they ultimately decided not to.
[11:42] <temas> yeah
[11:42] <temas> it'll be up to each area
[11:47] %% ocrampal has left
[11:47] <temas> Bush won't land in washington, no one knows where yet (media wise)
[11:47] %% justin has joined
[11:48] * justin weeps
[11:48] %% justin is now known as opie
[11:49] <temas> bin laden is highly probable from intelligence community
[11:50] %% heg has joined
[11:50] <qmacro> hey heg
[11:51] <heg> hey dj
[11:51] <heg> What is the EU reporting?
[11:51] <temas> Bush is in lousiana
[11:51] <temas> statement soon
[11:53] <qmacro> amber alerts here
[11:54] <temas> pictures coming in from PA finally
[11:54] <opie> what news networK?
[11:54] <temas> CNN I think
[11:54] <temas> yeah
[11:54] <opie> yup
[11:54] <temas> I'm flipping between a bunch
[11:54] <temas> initial reports are no survivors
[11:54] * qmacro is listening to BBC Radio 4
[11:55] %% matman has joined
[11:55] <ChatBot> [matman]: na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na matman!
[11:55] <heg> What are they saying, I have no TV in my office, I think I will walk home
[11:55] %% heg has left
[11:56] <matman> not much new. 5 planes down I think... two into the WTC, one into pentagon, one into colerado and one in pensilvania or something.
[11:56] <temas> haven't heard anything about CO
[11:56] <matman> well, this is what CNN is suggesting, but who knows... they seem to be confused.
[11:57] <matman> and air traffic is being redirected into Canada and Mexico I think
[11:57] <temas> just Canada for transatlantic flights
[11:58] <matman> The Toronto air traffic officials said anything that's in the air. *shrug* :)
[11:58] <temas> yeah
[11:58] <temas> they closed their airspace except for our flights to it
[11:58] <matman> yep.
[11:59] <matman> probably other cities too.
[11:59] <temas> this senator on CNN is saying what a bunch have for so long
[11:59] %% reatmon has joined
[11:59] <ChatBot> [reatmon]: Hey, Dad! Can I borrow the car keys?
[11:59] <temas> so sad
[11:59] <reatmon> will someone freaking fix s2s?
[11:59] <matman> it takes terrorism to get people into this channel :)
[12:00] <reatmon> it takes terrorism to get people to login without SSL via the company firewall....
[12:00] <opie> car bomb footage on fox news
[12:00] <reatmon> and risk firing
[12:00] <matman> hehe
[12:00] %% DizzyD has joined
[12:00] <matman> yah, some mall in washington is on fire too. probably some asshole trying to be a piece of the action.
[12:00] <opie> hehe
[12:00] <opie> hey dizzy
[12:01] <DizzyD> reatmon: hang on a sec
[12:01] <temas> the car bomb was denied
[12:01] <temas> either just a fir
[12:01] <temas> or something else
[12:01] <opie> k
[12:01] <DizzyD> scm was reset
[12:01] <DizzyD> try now :)
[12:01] %% ralphm has left
[12:01] <DizzyD> note, however, that comms with j.com will be sporadic -- all other servers shoudl be fine
[12:02] <DizzyD> comms _from_ j.com will be fine
[12:02] %% reatmon_test has joined
[12:02] %% zariok has joined
[12:02] %% reatmon has left
[12:02] <matman> apparently, they're moving air craft carriers into NYC (so I've heard)
[12:02] %% reatmon_test is now known as reatmon
[12:02] <ChatBot> [reatmon]: Hey, Dad! Can I borrow the car keys?
[12:02] <zariok> time to kick ass
[12:02] <temas> yeah that happened a while ago, navy was ordered into the area
[12:02] <DizzyD> reatmon: is that better?
[12:03] <reatmon> yes. thank you.
[12:03] <DizzyD> reatmon: lemme know if it acts up
[12:03] <reatmon> k
[12:04] <temas> some news conference from Kabul, Afghanistan is on
[12:04] <temas> it's really hard to understand though
[12:04] <matman> yah, they've gota cover their asses so that the US doesn't come and raid them trying to find Bin Ladin
[12:04] <reatmon> they are cheering in Nablus
[12:05] <reatmon> saying that bin Laden is the man
[12:05] <reatmon> Some 2,000 Palestinians celebrated here Tuesday, chanting slogans in honour of suspected terrorist Osama bin
Laden following a string of apparent terror attacks in the United States.
[12:05] <CLM> reatmon, hmmm...
[12:06] <matman> 2000 isn't too many, really. Like, compared to how many people were killed anyway.
[12:06] * DizzyD notes that whoever did this is going to be stomped on
[12:06] <opie> indeed
[12:06] <DizzyD> I'm master of the obvious
[12:06] <matman> I wonder if they'll be tortured before being executed.
[12:06] <reatmon> indeed
[12:07] <temas> what's pathetic is the CIA and FBI said there was no warning
[12:07] <temas> that's their job
[12:07] <temas> and they failed
[12:07] <temas> because they have no money
[12:07] <temas> or good people
[12:07] <reatmon> there was warning
[12:07] <matman> well, like they would admit it even if they knew something was going to happen.
[12:07] <DizzyD> uh...bin Laden noted in an London-based Arabic newspaper two weeks ago that he was going to attack the US in an unprecedented manner
[12:07] <qmacro> over here they're reporting how it's incredulous how this happened under the security agencies' noses
[12:07] <temas> that's not warning
[12:07] <temas> that's a threat
[12:07] <reatmon> LONDON (Reuters) - Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) warned three weeks ago
that he and his followers would carry out an unprecedented attack on U.S. interests for its support of
Israel, an Arab journalist with access to him said Tuesday.
[12:07] <temas> warning is the govt doing something about it
[12:08] <CLM> so the govt knew this was coming??
[12:08] <reatmon> I'd say we underestimated...
[12:08] <reatmon> they didn't know what... just that something was coming.
[12:08] <temas> true intelligence would have given us a when and a how
[12:08] <CLM> hmmm
[12:08] <reatmon> temas: I agree.
[12:08] <temas> that's the job of the CIA and FBI
[12:08] <matman> they knew something was comming, but not what. like, what are ya going to do? Sure, you know you're at risk, but what are you going to do past what you're already doing?
[12:08] <CLM> it's stupid to expect to be able to totally be able to predict when this would happen
[12:08] <temas> no it's not
[12:08] <CLM> ok Mr. temas..
[12:09] <temas> it completely is not
[12:09] <CLM> dude..
[12:09] <CLM> wha are you talking about?
[12:09] <matman> like, it's not the CIA's fault that Bin Ladin did a good job keeping this secret.
[12:09] <reatmon> yeah... they missed this date.
[12:09] <CLM> is the CIA perfect?
[12:09] <reatmon> sept 11 is an important date.
[12:09] <temas> I'm not saying they are perfect
[12:09] <temas> but they should have known more than nothing
[12:09] <CLM> is it possible that they could have screwed up?
[12:09] <temas> no it's not possible
[12:09] <CLM> how do you know they knew nothing?
[12:09] <temas> dude
[12:09] <temas> you want the CIA screwing up?
[12:09] <temas> that's unacceptable
[12:09] %% tcharron has joined
[12:10] <CLM> dude.
[12:10] <CLM> CIA is people
[12:10] <CLM> peopel screwup
[12:10] <DizzyD> why is sept 11 so important..?
[12:10] <CLM> people are often irrational and do unexpected things
[12:10] <DizzyD> 9/11 ?
[12:10] <CLM> do i want the CIA to screw up? of course not.
[12:10] <reatmon> back in 1978 the Camp David Accords were signed
[12:10] <tcharron> DizzyD: Some aniversary of some peace accord signed at Camp David
[12:10] <temas> they have enough procedures to not screwup
[12:10] <CLM> how do you know?
[12:10] <reatmon> a middle east pease accord.
[12:10] <temas> Hanna's dad is military intelligence
[12:10] <tcharron> Ya know, I'm not one for violence, but enough is enough..
[12:10] <tcharron> Friggen Nuke the middle east, be done with it..
[12:11] <temas> I've studied intelligence
[12:11] <temas> I almost devoted my life to it
[12:11] <opie> i doubt osama is even in the middle east
[12:11] <CLM> it's VERY easy to criticize if the CIA fucks up
[12:11] <reatmon> opie: word is that he is in Afganistan.
[12:11] <reatmon> but no proof
[12:11] <temas> I don't know everything, you can't unless you are in it, but I know enough to know that their current lack of funds, man power, and other things like that is a joke
[12:11] <tcharron> Yea, but when he aint got a bnuncha holy warriors who are gonna die for Allah, lets see how far he gets..
[12:11] <temas> our intelligence community is completely lacking because we've become complacent
[12:12] <temas> we think the cold war was the end of it
[12:12] <reatmon> temas: I agree.
[12:12] <temas> so we scaled back massively
[12:12] <temas> I've lived a military life since I was born, I've seen it all happen
[12:12] <zariok> yea... there goes a big "oops"
[12:12] <temas> it's a joke
[12:12] <CLM> temas, well... if you have some refernces to about lack of funds, manpower... i'd be happy to read them
[12:12] <tcharron> temas: Thats partially due to the fact that they CAN'T know everything, becouse of the sheer numbers of terrorist activities in the last few years..
[12:12] * DizzyD notes that not all Islamic people are hostile
[12:12] <zariok> temas: i was an af child too
[12:12] <tcharron> Activity and planning, training, etc, have increased literally 300 fold..
[12:12] <tcharron> DizzyD: Right now, shotgun approach..
[12:12] <temas> CLM: dude lack of funds is easy to see, go look at the national budget
[12:12] <CLM> tcharron, 300? wow.. since when?
[12:13] <tcharron> CLM: Like 1993 IIRC..
[12:13] <CLM> tcharron, hmm.
[12:13] <tcharron> I was reading a report on it a few months back..
[12:13] <CLM> dude.
[12:13] <tcharron> CLM: iN the past, they went ahead and did sopmething with literally no planning..
[12:13] <CLM> let's assume the world is in peaceful times
[12:13] <temas> yeah, and if they have increased 300 fold, so should we
[12:13] <temas> we have to be on top of it
[12:13] <tcharron> CLM: Now they are specifically training, orginizing, etc..
[12:13] <CLM> tcharron, who are you referring to agian?
[12:14] <temas> terrorists
[12:14] <CLM> hmm.
[12:14] <tcharron> I fucking knew at least 3 people who worked in those buildings, who are more then likely dead right now..
[12:14] <reatmon> temas: if i had to guess... this will mark an increase in budgets and manpower.
[12:14] <tcharron> Fuck them, nuke them.. Worry about the glow in the dark cucumbers later..
[12:14] <CLM> tcharron, heh.. i have family members.
[12:14] <temas> reatmon: I sincerely hope so
[12:14] <matman> well, I just hope that they didn't do any bio attacks... we wouldn't know for a few days.
[12:14] <tcharron> matman: Yeppers..
[12:14] <temas> matman: preliminary reports are no
[12:14] <tcharron> Wanna know the scary part of it?
[12:15] <temas> and they are usually tested for quickly
[12:15] <zariok> or that it was nuclear
[12:15] <tcharron> Alot of its our own faults..
[12:15] <CLM> the *LAST* thing we need is a nuclear attack
[12:15] <zariok> clm: no cause then it would be a goverment interaction of a foreign country... give us a 'who' and 'where' to go kick ass
[12:15] <CLM> zariok, exactly.
[12:16] <tcharron> Look at what we've done with the Internet? Do you think some shmoe, lets say temas, decided he wants to start hijacking, starts sending PGP encrypted IM messages to friggen isreal, that they can do shit about it?
[12:16] <tcharron> Not trying to insulkt you temas.. 8-P
[12:16] <CLM> hahahh
[12:16] <temas> oh no, not at all
[12:16] <tcharron> Just an example of someone who I know uses OPGP becouse I cant read his email in outlook wirthout opening attachments..
[12:16] <tcharron> Err, PGP
[12:16] <temas> tcharron: I've preached to you about my thoughts about the internet and it's affects on security
[12:16] <tcharron> I'm sorry, all of this today is really gotten to me..
[12:16] <CLM> temas, what are your thoguhts on internet security?
[12:16] <reatmon> tcharron: at the same time, without crypto we can't have e-commerce...
[12:16] <tcharron> Maybee cause I knew people there, or perhaps becouse I used to be in the Air Force..
[12:17] <matman> yah, it'd be EASY to listen in on temas over side channels and stuff (van eck, etc) - he doesn't have the cash to stop that kind of thing :)
[12:17] <temas> my thoughts on internet security strongly reflect what I said about this
[12:17] <tcharron> reatmon: Fuck it. So we cant buy tomatoes on a web site..
[12:17] <temas> it's a joke
[12:17] <reatmon> tcharron: it's bigger than grocery shooping on-line...
[12:17] <reatmon> no secure transactions of any kind
[12:17] <tcharron> reatmon: It isnt big enough to risk the kind of thing that happened today happing again..
[12:17] <tcharron> Today definatly changed my mind about all of that..
[12:18] <reatmon> the stuff that happened today is not because of crypto...
[12:18] <temas> tcharron: it's not just that though
[12:18] <reatmon> it's bad intelligence.
[12:18] <temas> crypto is (imho) BS
[12:18] <zariok> revoke all green cards
[12:18] <zariok> send'm home
[12:18] <zariok> :)
[12:18] <CLM> zatiok, that'd be stupid
[12:18] <temas> intelligence is the key
[12:18] <temas> knowing who's where
[12:18] <temas> if I knew where a terrorist was
[12:18] <reatmon> knowing who's talking to who.
[12:18] <temas> and saw a massive increase in encrypted traffic from them
[12:18] <tcharron> temas: And if you have absolutly no way of tracking communications, how, pretell, can you have intelligence?
[12:18] <temas> it's an early warning to increase my intelligence somewhere else
[12:18] * DizzyD departs
[12:18] <DizzyD> bbiab
[12:19] <CLM> it's all one big catch22
[12:19] <CLM> you want security..
[12:19] <matman> crypto helps, but it's not everything. Crypto alone helps against casual attackers... but when you've got money against you, you're more likely fucked.
[12:19] <temas> tracking or reading or origin or....
[12:19] <CLM> "but oh... we want to know about people talking about blowing up NYC"
[12:19] <temas> there are many issues to it
[12:19] <temas> pres on tv
[12:19] <tcharron> temas: Yes, thats typical information gathering, just like they use computer activity metrics based on the heat output of buildings, which is why we pay 10k for an old 386 with shielding..
[12:20] <tcharron> Bah..
[12:20] <temas> right
[12:20] <tcharron> I'm sorry all, I'm just really worked up..
[12:20] <temas> oh I am too
[12:20] <reatmon> tcharron: it's ok.
[12:20] <matman> CLM: I sure as hell don't want some terrorists used as an excuse to escrow my encryption keys.
[12:20] <reatmon> we all are
[12:20] <tcharron> Nuke em, case closed, andone else in the class wanna stand up, we got more.. 8-P
[12:21] <tcharron> Now I know why we Nuked Japan..
[12:21] <CLM> tcharron, dude. you sound like a racist
[12:21] <CLM> =)
[12:21] <zariok> not racism
[12:21] <tcharron> Prolly am ATM
[12:21] <temas> we nuked japan to stop a war
[12:22] <zariok> but we gathered up all the japanise in the nation too
[12:22] <temas> although we might have won without it the loss of life would have been too great
[12:22] <zariok> even those loyal to the us
[12:22] <tcharron> And no, its nothing against their race, its just that if I have a friggen bees nest, with some cute little butterflies near them, when I friggen Raid the bees, the Butterflys are gonna go to..
[12:22] <CLM> zariok, yes.. that was totally wrong
[12:22] <tcharron> I dont have the bugs in general, but hey.. 8-P
[12:22] <matman> people (should) have a right to privacy. restricting our rights in order to gain a bit of security against terrorists is really just letting the terrorists negatively effect or society even further.
[12:22] <tcharron> Why do we need Privacy?
[12:22] <zariok> matman: *nod*
[12:22] <tcharron> I mean, why?
[12:23] <tcharron> We should have the right to do or say what we want, but privacy is no where in the US constitution..
[12:23] <temas> without it we have no freedom
[12:23] <temas> why do we need freedom?
[12:23] <temas> without freedom we have no free thought
[12:23] <temas> without free thought we are not human
[12:23] <tcharron> Bah.. My name isnt private, and I'm still free..
[12:23] <tcharron> My home phone is in my vCard, I'm still free..
[12:24] <matman> tcharron: that's because you've chosen to disclose that info
[12:24] <tcharron> If I know reatmon or Eliot likes to surf porno sights, how are they not free?
[12:24] <reatmon> tcharron: yes but what you say to your wife at night is privaite... and the stories you tell your kids at bed time are private.
[12:24] <tcharron> reartWell, obviously you've never been my neibor.. 8-P
[12:24] <CLM> bah
[12:24] <temas> without privacy how could I start a competitive business?
[12:25] <CLM> freedom means differnt things to different people...
[12:25] <matman> tcharron: if you have no privacy, listeners can take things out of context with negative results.
[12:25] <tcharron> temas: Just becouse the government knows, doesnt mean everyone needs to know,..
[12:25] <temas> just an an example
[12:25] <temas> but the next step is to have everyone know
[12:25] <temas> it creates a breakdown
[12:25] <temas> that spirals out of control
[12:25] <CLM> it's funny how people try to define "freedom".. put a little box around and go "here's freedom.. here you go.. this is freedom"
[12:25] <reatmon> without privacy your bank account is a cookie jar for anyone who wants a treat.
[12:26] <matman> tcharron: privacy should be an inalienable human right.
[12:26] <tcharron> Bah.. If the government needs to know what things I wisper in my wives ear at night, and it will help them stop someone from blowing away over 20 THOUSAND people, I can live with that..
[12:26] <matman> it used to just be assumed - you could go into a field and know that no one was around... but now you have to worry about wireless microphones, satellites, etc
[12:27] <reatmon> tcharron: it's not the government we care about...
[12:27] <CLM> dude.
[12:27] <CLM> even people with the most freedom complain and bitch about how bad they have it.. or how much better they could have it
[12:27] <reatmon> it's the guy next door waiting to see when you leave and where you keep your spare key so he can kill your wife after you leave and lock the door.
[12:27] <matman> privacy these days really needs to be guaranteed by law.
[12:28] <reatmon> I don't care if the government knows what I'm doing...
[12:28] <CLM> matman, heh.. using that local grocery store card tells someone what food i'm buying :)
[12:28] <reatmon> I care that the bad people do. and will exploit it.
[12:28] <CLM> reatmon, explain...
[12:28] <reatmon> explain what?
[12:28] <matman> CLM: hmm? does it not just let the grocery store know?
[12:28] <CLM> i didn't follow what you said.
[12:28] <tcharron> reatmon: THATS MY POINT
[12:28] <zariok> how would you know about just hte bad point wihtout knowing about all people?
[12:28] <CLM> matman, it's very possible MORE than just the grocery store
[12:28] <zariok> what determines a 'bad' person?
[12:29] <tcharron> reatmon: But people clump them hand in hand
[12:29] <reatmon> the problem is that without crypto and privacy the bad people win.
[12:29] <tcharron> I guess..
[12:29] <tcharron> I mean, they will win either way thinking about it..
[12:29] <CLM> ratmon, grossly over-generalized
[12:29] <reatmon> right.
[12:29] <tcharron> We need a Baddie detector.. 8-P
[12:29] <reatmon> but the problem si that we all lose without privacy.
[12:29] <tcharron> Can we write a terrorist-detectir-transport?
[12:30] <zariok> crypto is there, and even if the goverment were to know all about law abiding citizens... they will use it and exloit it's use
[12:30] <tcharron> We need one me thinks..
[12:30] <reatmon> tcharron: =)
[12:30] <matman> CLM: And that's a privacy problem - but not a very big one unless the store has a pharmacy and your employer finds out that you are taking AIDS meds, and is homophobic and thinks that only homosexuals get AIDS.
[12:30] <tcharron> matman: They can think whatever they want..
[12:30] <CLM> matman, so it really has nothing to do with privacy per se.. but people's judgment about facts that they will get.
[12:31] <tcharron> matman: Remember, freedom also means tyou have to acvcept anyone can think or feel any way they want..
[12:31] <matman> tcharron, CLM: it's about people taking information out of context, or in a way that is negative... you would care if you were fired because of it.
[12:31] <CLM> freedom is all about control...
[12:32] <matman> CLM: privacy is freedom to have control over your communications with others. that's important to me. more important than terrorism.
[12:32] <CLM> matman, what if you're the terrorist.. you would just LOVE the ability to communicate your evil plans and have it protected in some sort of constritutional way..
[12:33] <tcharron> matman: They cant fire you for that, thats illegal, and there are laws protecting it. But they can talk amungt them selves and call you a friggen skizzy fag behind your back if they like..
[12:33] %% opie has left
[12:33] <matman> CLM: I, and most other humans, have never been personally effected by a terrorist attack; many more people have been effected by a loss of privacy. I care far more about privacy than about terrorism.
[12:33] <tcharron> matman: Yes, and what if I'm playing a 'Terrorist Game' with a buddy, based on Shadowrun or the such.. I wasnt trying to do anything, ossifer, and the law says you cant make the assumtion that I was gonna DO anything..
[12:34] <tcharron> matman: A loss of privacy has *NEVER* to my knowledge, resulted in over 20k people being buried under millions of ton of steelk and concrete..
[12:34] <CLM> what needs to be more in consideration is those that violate privacy...
[12:34] <tcharron> NOR have I ever seen people jump from a 40th story building to escape the flames..
[12:34] <matman> CLM: if I was a terrorist, I would love encryption. But business people, and individuals protecting their credit card info, etc also love encryption.
[12:35] <CLM> matman, yes.. and that's the catch22.. .. the double-edged sword..
[12:35] <tcharron> NOR has it ever blew up the pentagon, or killed dozens of little children who where playing with dolls in daycare..
[12:35] <qmacro> CLM: what do you mean by 'violate privacy'?
[12:36] <CLM> qmacro, let's say there are certain rules that gurantees certain privacy... and let's say that someone violates this privacy... i'm talking about the constraints around those individuals that choose to willfully violate other peoples' privacy for malicious use in addition to the legislation that guranteed the privacy in the first place.. both considerations are equally important.
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[12:37] <matman> tcharron: maybe I'm callous, or just realistic, but I think I care more about my life than other people's death. Most other people are the same way, even if they won't admit it. People care about interruptions to their life. It's more likely that my life will be interrupted by a privacy problem or fraud than by terrorism.
[12:37] <miker> Look at the old USSR for an example of a government who had no respect for privacy.
[12:37] <matman> Anyway, I've gota go. bbl
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[12:37] <qmacro> CLM: I still don't know what you mean (you defined violating privacy in terms that included "violate ... privacy"..
[12:38] <qmacro> do you mean to overrule and 'break in' to something previously private?
[12:38] <CLM> people are selfish.. but selfishness is not a mutually exclusive thing all the time.. there are times when your self-interset happens to be other peoples' self-interest, so you cooperate... for example, a pilot on a plane.. his self-interest is to land the plane safely.. that is indirectly YOUR self-interst that he do his job as best as he can, because if he crashes, you both suffer.. it's all about the power structure and control relationships between individuals and groups and how to manage that.
[12:38] <tcharron> I suspect hed think different if he was buried, doomed to slowly die over the course of hours, under steel and concrete, and might just think to himself.. 'Perhaps I wouldnt have cared if the government knew about my foot fetish'..
[12:38] <CLM> qmacro, correct.
[12:39] <qmacro> ok. ta.
[12:39] <CLM> qmacro, what else are you unclear about?
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[12:39] <ChatBot> [matman]: na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na matman!
[12:40] <qmacro> CLM: oh, lots of things. But that's status quo with me.
[12:40] <matman> one more point... what they hell are you going to do? outlaw encryption? are the terrorists living in other countries going to care if you outlaw encryption? yes, they'll love it since now they can spy on businesses and perform more viable economic attacks. Okay, now I must go :)
[12:41] <CLM> qmacro, i'd be intersted in hearing some of them
[12:41] <flash> hey - what a cool intro matman
[12:41] <CLM> encryption should be available for those that want to use it...
[12:41] <CLM> simple as that.
[12:41] <qmacro> nothing's ever that simple :)
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[12:41] <CLM> qmacro, theoretically, yes :)
[12:42] <tcharron> Theory my ass..
[12:42] <tcharron> You want that, then the NSA needs to increase its budget by 4 fold..
[12:42] <qmacro> my distance from the reality of it perhaps makes me think only theoretically about it
[12:42] <tcharron> Thats the price.,.
[12:42] <CLM> well.. the process by which things occur is not simple.. but the end is often very simple (in retrospect)
[12:43] <CLM> bah.. the only thing that i have faith in is scientific law.. the rest is just opinions.. LOL
[12:43] <temas> there's that budget stuff again
[12:43] <CLM> :)
[12:43] <qmacro> I'm not that interested in encryption, for example. I don't care if people listen in. Life's too short to be that paranoid. And I don't have anything to hide. The nice thing about encryption is that even if I don't want to use it, other people, if they so wish, _can_ use it to send something to me
[12:43] <tcharron> temas: Thats a gimme..
[12:44] <temas> CLM didn't want to believe me =)
[12:44] <tcharron> The NSA canrt keep up in any way, shape, or form as they used to..
[12:44] <CLM> qmacro, yes.. i would tend to agree with that..
[12:44] <temas> NSA used to be ahead
[12:44] <qmacro> the only thing I have faith in is Perl
[12:44] <temas> they are ahead in the mind share still
[12:44] <CLM> temas, what.? =) did i miss something?
[12:44] <temas> but they can't implement
[12:44] <tcharron> temas: Hell, I was in the af as a computer communications specialist, and many of the technologies and the such that they used in 92 where friggen 10 to 15 years old..
[12:44] <flash> hmmm - but <qmacro> encryption is not just about hiding things - what about signing things
[12:44] <qmacro> (I gotta stop drinking this Fanta)
[12:45] <temas> tcharron: oh yeah i know
[12:45] <temas> I've seen it all too
[12:45] <CLM> it's all about trust.
[12:45] <temas> it's pretty scary
[12:45] <qmacro> flash: I consider encryption and signing two different things
[12:45] <temas> although the intelligence community is a little better
[12:45] <tcharron> The NSA used to quicte literally be 100 fold ahead of the game as far as technology was concerned..
[12:45] <tcharron> Now they are perhaps, AT MNOST, 2 times..
[12:45] <temas> oh yeah by far
[12:45] <qmacro> encryption is preventing prying eyes, signing is providing authenticity. They both use similar mechanisms to achieve different high-level goals
[12:45] <tcharron> 2 Fold, that is
[12:46] <temas> I would say about 3
[12:46] <temas> from what I've heard
[12:46] <temas> but that's pathetic
[12:46] <tcharron> temas: Yea, but either way, no where near what they need to be..
[12:46] <temas> exactly
[12:47] <CLM> i still wonder who's behind these plane crashes in NYC =)
[12:47] <temas> I would bet bin laden
[12:47] <tcharron> It doesnt matter. If he wasnt, he coulda been..
[12:47] <tcharron> Hence, nuke the fuckers..
[12:47] * qmacro finds it difficult to refer to his Java program as a 'script'
[12:47] * qmacro spits
[12:47] <CLM> i'm sure a lot of people would pick him as the first guess.. including the gov't.. so that's probably the first thing they'll look into
[12:47] <CLM> tcharron, are you sure you weren't Tim McVeigh's friend? :)
[12:48] <tcharron> I say, anyone ourtside the US that says they wanna see us hurt, and might do somethiong about it, should be nuked..
[12:48] <tcharron> We need persron seeking mininukes..
[12:48] <CLM> tcharron.. you should read some Noam Chomsky :)
[12:48] <temas> no matter who did it, the key is to stomp on everyone that helped as well
[12:48] <temas> no matter how big they are
[12:48] <qmacro> tcharron: gosh. That's quite severe.
[12:48] <tcharron> Interconntinetal Balistic little people killers..
[12:48] <reatmon> tcharron: Terminators
[12:48] <tcharron> Remember roger rabits bullets?
[12:48] <tcharron> We need them..
[12:48] <CLM> tcharron, heh... the US is a pretty rogue state if you think about it..
[12:49] <CLM> again.. people can say whatever they want.. no need to nuke them
[12:49] <tcharron> The US is a giant bully.. And someone just friggen but raped this bullies girldfriend, someones gonna get their neck snapped.. 8-P
[12:49] * temas isn't big on nukes
[12:49] <CLM> temas, me neither.. ..
[12:49] <temas> but there is a lot to be done
[12:49] <tcharron> Neither am I, but it SURE do feel good to say it..
[12:50] <CLM> tcharron, LOL
[12:50] <tcharron> NUKENUKENUKE em..
[12:50] <qmacro> :-)
[12:50] <temas> no doubt
[12:50] <CLM> ya....
[12:50] <tcharron> DUKE NUKEM as a metter of a fact..
[12:50] <tcharron> Wait, thats what we need..
[12:50] <CLM> say.. conferencing doesn't have a kick feature yet does it? LOL
[12:50] <tcharron> RAMBO with DUKE NUKEMS guns..
[12:50] <CLM> man.. it's very sicekngint ot think that the nukes in existence can blow the earth up many times over..
[12:51] <CLM> sickening
[12:51] <temas> ugg I wish /. wouldn't report on this
[12:51] <temas> their reporting is horrid
[12:51] <CLM> temas, ??
[12:51] <tcharron> Yep.. But its comforting to know that if stuck up a terrosists ass, it could quite literally vaporize every molecule in thier sick little bodies..
[12:51] <temas> I wish they would at least word it well
[12:52] <tcharron> temas: Agreed, but slashdot isnt a news site..
[12:52] <tcharron> Its a discussion about news site.. 8-
[12:52] <tcharron> P
[12:52] <temas> yes
[12:52] <CLM> tcharron, it's not very comforting to know that a terrorist can also shove it up yours.. ever consider that? :)
[12:52] <temas> I've started reading newsforge only for open source news
[12:53] <tcharron> CLM: It is very comforting, so long as before I go, someone will return the favor..
[12:53] <CLM> tcharron, LOL
[12:54] <CLM> tcharron, you're very amusing...
[12:54] <CLM> anyone happen to know how much those buildings cost?
[12:56] <qmacro> gotta go. take care all
[12:56] %% qmacro has left
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[12:58] %% x-virge has joined
[12:58] <ChatBot> [x-virge]: The Gabber-Dominator has returned to conquer all who oppose him
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[13:00] <x-virge> My dad saw it
[13:00] <x-virge> he was in his office building in Newark, NJ
[13:00] <x-virge> and he saw the planes hitting world trade center, saw the trade center towers fall, etc
[13:00] <temas> yeah I forget you guys are near there
[13:00] <temas> freaky
[13:01] <CLM> x-virge, wow
[13:01] <x-virge> most of my extended family is in Pittsburgh
[13:01] <x-virge> so that part was scary as well
[13:05] %% justin has joined
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[13:10] <ChatBot> [pgmillard]: My client could whoop your client any day
[13:11] <temas> I guess I'll move back into to my main computer now
[13:13] %% temas has left
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[13:15] <ChatBot> [temas]: where's my entry?
[13:15] <temas> grr I hate not being able to see the TV now
[13:16] <temas> anyone who's watching be sure to let us know of anything interesting
[13:19] <CLM> temas, i think i need nap, this has been an intense day for me
[13:19] <temas> no joke
[13:19] <CLM> temas, my cousin may have been in the one of the towers.. i'm still waiting to find out
[13:21] <temas> that sucks
[13:31] * justin is at advantage now... no tv... gimme updates if they come out too
[13:32] <zariok> http://www.chicagotribune.com/ isn't bogged down.. pretty good to
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[13:38] <Theo> hello, everyone.
[13:38] <Theo> i'm with a tv... anyone need info?
[13:39] <Theo> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/chronology.attack/index.html
[13:39] <Theo> a chronology of the attacks...
[13:39] <huangpo> updates: Bush is at Barksdale Air Force Base outside of Shreveport LA. All commercial air flights in the US and UK have been grounded. Yassir Arafat has denounced the terroist action against the WTC and the Pentagon. Casualities at the WTC are estimated to be in the thousands, possibly in the tens of thousands.
[13:40] <CLM> 10s of thousands???
[13:40] <huangpo> All the news sources are pointing to Osama bin Laden as the organizer of this morning's terroist action.
[13:41] <huangpo> CLM: the working population of the WTC at 9am EST is ~50,000
[13:41] <Theo> CLM: yeah, 10's of thousands is what it's looking like...
[13:41] <CLM> tis' all speculation at this point...
[13:41] <huangpo> Both towers of the WTC collapsed within an hour after being attacked
[13:41] <CLM> huangpo, yes.. i saw it while it happened in the morning
[13:41] <Theo> i woke up 2 hours ago...
[13:42] <CLM> theo, so you're just finding out what happened...
[13:42] <Theo> turned on my computer to see a chat from my best friend asking if i was watching the TV...
[13:42] <huangpo> I'm watching the BBC coverage now for a different perspective from European leaders.
[13:42] <Theo> i thought "why would i be watching the TV?"
[13:42] <Theo> turned it on, turned back to the computer to reply to her while it fired up...
[13:43] <Theo> and out of the corner of my eye caught a glimpse of a torn-up street on the screen.
[13:43] <huangpo> Lower Manhattan is being evacuated.
[13:43] <Theo> after seeing a video of the south tower of the WTC collapsing, the TV had all my attention.
[13:44] <huangpo> Rudy Juliani has called for evac to let emergency vehicles in to help the wounded.
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[13:44] <Theo> *sigh* and i have to go and join the marines now....
[13:45] <huangpo> how old are you?
[13:45] <Theo> 22.
[13:45] * zariok is 24
[13:45] <justin> i'm 19
[13:45] <zariok> most of us .. are 'of age'
[13:45] <zariok> :)
[13:45] <temas> huangpo: I would love an EU view if you have one
[13:45] <huangpo> 37, and did 3 years in the USN
[13:46] <Theo> i've been planning to join the marines for a year and a half now.
[13:46] <huangpo> BBC is interviewing various experts in terroism.
[13:46] <Theo> already signed the papers, with a estimated january ship date, after the semester ends...
[13:46] <Theo> and now this...
[13:46] <huangpo> Theo: we won't be going into a conventional war, but a psychological one against terroism
[13:46] <temas> you'll be fine
[13:47] <DizzyD> anyone in here using s2s?
[13:47] <temas> if we have any conventional retaliation I would expect it to be more covert
[13:47] <DizzyD> (to access jdev)
[13:47] <Theo> mmm... anyone heard any reports comparing this to other terrorist attacks in history?
[13:47] <huangpo> temas: agreed
[13:47] <Theo> i'm using s2s...
[13:47] <huangpo> Theo: no comparison
[13:47] <Theo> it is working great now, thanks Dizzy!
[13:47] <temas> yes it's being compared to pearl harbor
[13:47] <DizzyD> Theo: pleae lemme know if it flakes out
[13:47] <DizzyD> Theo: it's had a bunch of bug fixes :)
[13:47] <huangpo> temas: in relation to impact, but the loss of life will be great
[13:47] <Theo> dizz: ok, i will.
[13:48] <huangpo> s/great/greater/
[13:48] <Theo> any idea what the loss of life was for perl harbor?
[13:48] <Theo> oops, pearly harbor.
[13:48] <Theo> ack!
[13:48] <Theo> sorry for the typos, all.
[13:48] <huangpo> theo: a couple of thousand I believe
[13:48] <huangpo> brb
[13:48] <Theo> i'm not really looking at my computer screen right now while typing...
[13:49] <huangpo> back
[13:49] <temas> yeah this will be larger
[13:49] <huangpo> BBC showing live announcements by Mayor Juliani and the Gov of NY
[13:50] <Theo> yes, on CNN: 50,000 people worked in the WTC
[13:50] <huangpo> Theo: I'm hoping some got out before the towers collapsed
[13:50] <Theo> each tower was over 100 stories tall...
[13:50] <huangpo> some did now that I remember
[13:50] <huangpo> theo: 110 stories to be exact
[13:50] <Theo> cost of the two towers to be built: 400 million usd...
[13:50] <temas> a lot got out of tower 2
[13:50] <huangpo> Juliani refuses to make estimates of casualities
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[13:51] <temas> its evacuation started right after 1 was hit
[13:51] <temas> most journalists are doing a good job of not talking about the death
[13:51] <Theo> geez, the dust and debrie cloud from the collapse of one of the towers is huge....
[13:51] <carlb> 2400 for Pearl Harbor.
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[13:51] <temas> actually most of the TV media seems to have been doing a decent job overall
[13:51] <huangpo> Juliani is saying he believes the collapses of each tower was not caused by bombs, but by the results of the impacts
[13:52] <Theo> temas: yes, i agree.
[13:52] <x-virge> yeah, I was just reading
[13:52] <Theo> very good coverage,
[13:52] <huangpo> agreed
[13:52] <temas> /. is the only one I dislike
[13:52] <x-virge> apparently the impacts were not a direct cause of the collapse
[13:52] <Theo> with consideration for the facts, possible cuases, and little to no inflamitory coverage...
[13:52] <huangpo> x-virge: details?
[13:52] <x-virge> but what probably happened was that the impacts cut off the sprinkler system
[13:52] <x-virge> and thus the fires raged
[13:52] <huangpo> ah
[13:52] <x-virge> actually melting the steel
[13:53] <gidigo> plenty of jet fuel on those planes
[13:53] <temas> there is speculation of a fuel explosion too
[13:53] <DizzyD> pgmillard: you buy that?
[13:53] <Theo> x-virge: ahh... makes ense, yes.
[13:53] <huangpo> the local elementary schools sent the children home, I see the school buses outside my window
[13:53] <huangpo> I took the day off, have some vacation saved up.
[13:53] <temas> local schools here too
[13:53] <x-virge> Delaware declared a state of emergency at like 11:00
[13:53] <Theo> that might be why it collapsed, what, and hour after being hit?
[13:53] <temas> a day to remember
[13:53] <x-virge> but my school didn't let us out until 2 hours later
[13:53] <Theo> schools here in Tallahassee, FL are still going.
[13:54] <Theo> but FSU and other colleges have been closed,
[13:54] <temas> my mom didn't let the kids go to school
[13:54] <Theo> only elementary and middle schools, and maybe high schools, are still going.
[13:54] <temas> because they weren't going to have TVs playing this stuff
[13:54] <x-virge> heh
[13:54] <gidigo> my uni is going
[13:54] <carlb> the San Francisco School district closed.
[13:56] <huangpo> Juliani still answering questions from reporters on BBC, now the Gov of NY
[13:57] <Theo> hm... anyone willing to speculate on how this will affect US society and outlook in the mid to long term?
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[13:57] <temas> well it will pull us back into reality
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[13:57] <temas> realize we're still at war, despite the cold war being over
[13:57] <Theo> temas: how so?
[13:58] <huangpo> Theo: loss of some freedoms unfortunately. Many innocent people in the Middle East will be unfairly blamed.
[13:58] <Theo> temas: ah, ok...
[13:58] <temas> we became too complacent with our sense of security
[13:58] <temas> because we "won" the cold war
[13:58] <huangpo> temas: agreed
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[13:58] <huangpo> look at the basic fact that 4 airplanes were hijacked in a coordinated effort
[13:58] <Theo> temas: yes, agreed. i think the US's sense of security and safety are completely over now...
[13:58] <temas> (disclaimer for those that haven't heard it, grew up an army brat, and I am rather bitter at the cut backs in defense)
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[13:58] <CLM> in times of peace.. it's natural to want to believe that you SHOULDN'T be on heightened alert
[13:58] <temas> hopefully we'll be able to fund the CIA, FBI and NSA again
[13:59] <Theo> i'm glad about what this will mean for funding to our military and intelligence...
[13:59] <huangpo> I think this morning was a deliberate act to bring the conflict in the Middle East home to the US mainland
[13:59] <temas> economically we'll probably go down for a while, but bounce back up quickly as we bind together to work towards repair
[13:59] <Theo> but very unhappy about what it will mean about freedoms and liberties...
[13:59] <huangpo> agreed
[14:00] <Theo> huangpo: agreed.
[14:00] <CLM> those ppl in the middle east disgust me...
[14:00] <temas> nay, the fanatics disgust me
[14:00] <temas> many of the people are great
[14:00] <CLM> temas, yes.. we wil work towards repair..
[14:00] <Theo> temas: true.
[14:00] <huangpo> CLM: location doesn't condemn a person
[14:00] <Theo> just the fanatics are to be looked at, not the people in general.
[14:00] <CLM> temas, yes.. i should probably clarify.. "the fanatics in the middle east disgust me"
[14:00] <huangpo> hate the terroists, not the people
[14:01] <CLM> huangpo, yes.. i'm not exactly thinking clearly now :)
[14:01] <huangpo> CLM: understand
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[14:01] <temas> the problem is terrorism is run by really smart people
[14:01] <huangpo> Let's keep a clear head.
[14:01] <temas> they use those fanatics to their ends
[14:01] <temas> the smart ones don't kill themselves
[14:01] <huangpo> temas: yup
[14:01] <CLM> temas, craziness helps :)
[14:01] <temas> that's why terrorism is so powerful
[14:02] <Theo> temas: yes, it is important to keep in mind this is the very small minority acting.
[14:02] <huangpo> Democratic countries are going to have to redefine security
[14:02] <huangpo> theo: agreed
[14:02] <Theo> it is just a shame that such a small group of people can cause such huge devastating disaster...
[14:02] <carlb> there is a request that I am hearing.
[14:02] <huangpo> that is exactly what terroism is about
[14:02] <CLM> just as it takes only a few people to make positive chance in the world... it only takes a small number to bring destruction
[14:02] * temas just bitched at a telemarkter
[14:02] <carlb> Local leaders are asking not to discriminate against certain ethnic groups here in the US.
[14:03] <huangpo> carlb: wise words
[14:03] <carlb> Like we did with the Japanese-Americans during WWII
[14:03] <huangpo> Yassir Arafat has condemned this morning's actions.
[14:04] <Theo> carlb: what is the request?
[14:04] <temas> yeah we screwed the japanese during that time
[14:04] <temas> quite unfairly
[14:04] <huangpo> temas: agreed
[14:04] <temas> I'm baffled that telemarketers continue to clog the phone lines during an event like this
[14:04] <temas> that's just sick
[14:04] <CLM> we're all going to pay for this ... in some form another...
[14:04] <CLM> no one walks away from this one for free...
[14:05] <Theo> carlb: temas: agreed. this is the #1 thing the US has to keep in mind...
[14:05] <carlb> agreed
[14:05] <huangpo> I'm afraid of the emotional reaction of Congress to pass bills that limit our personal freedoms.
[14:05] <temas> huangpo: I'm not overly afraid of that
[14:05] <huangpo> such as the use of personal encryption.
[14:05] <temas> I do have concernt
[14:05] <temas> concerns
[14:06] <Theo> huangpo: i agree. i don't think it will be a huge rush or flood of them,
[14:06] <Theo> but more will get passed because of this than otherwise.
[14:06] <temas> I think it points to the larger issue
[14:06] <carlb> the potential for paranoia is high.
[14:06] <temas> we as a people want freedom
[14:06] <CLM> the bottom line is.. people have to have control.. whether it be self-control or not.. and if they can't utilize self-control, then force must be use for the good of the rest
[14:06] <temas> and privacy
[14:06] <Theo> temas: which is?
[14:06] <temas> yet our agencies designed to protect that
[14:06] <temas> arent' funded well enough
[14:06] <temas> like tc and I estimated
[14:06] <Theo> hm...
[14:06] <temas> NSA is maybe 3 fold ahead of current technology
[14:06] <temas> that's pathetic
[14:07] <Theo> temas: i agree. more funding is needed. alot more.
[14:07] <huangpo> CLM: but who gets to make that distinction of who is in self-control or not?
[14:07] <temas> I know they ahve designs for some computers that could kick the crap out of crypto
[14:07] <temas> but they can't build them
[14:07] <temas> they don't have money, so they can't lure skilled people from the private sector, or buy material
[14:07] <carlb> what was that movie about Eschelon and Denzel Washington.
[14:07] <Theo> 'The Siege'.
[14:08] <huangpo> Kofi Annan, General Secretary of the UN is making a statement.
[14:08] <CLM> huangpo, that is a very difficult question to answer.. in fact, almost impossible.
[14:08] <carlb> scary stuff.
[14:08] <CLM> huangpo, there are probably as many answers as people
[14:08] <huangpo> CLM: exactly
[14:08] <CLM> temas, what kind of funding do these organizations need.. do you have numbers ?
[14:09] <temas> I wouldn't know directly
[14:09] <Theo> huangpo: CNN and none of the major networks here are covering the UN Secretary.
[14:09] <huangpo> Kofi Annan denounced the terroism.
[14:09] <CLM> huangpo, it really comes down to issues of trust and control...
[14:09] <temas> but you know why we won the cold war
[14:09] <temas> because we did put money in the intelligence community
[14:09] <temas> we knew what was happening
[14:09] <Theo> temas: agreed.
[14:09] <temas> HUMINT was very high
[14:09] <Theo> temas: and i also think we won the cold war by just waiting long enough.
[14:09] <temas> our humint is way way way down now
[14:10] <Theo> but the waiting was an option for us beccause we had the great intelligence...
[14:10] <CLM> temas, you can't pinpoint winning the cold war as directly being influenced by just one thing... it was a combination of many many things... intelligence being one part of it
[14:10] <huangpo> temas: I've always thought we outspent USSR in terms of defense and bankrupted them
[14:10] <carlb> this has the potential to impact world peace.
[14:10] <temas> huangpo: well yeah, but we did it in the right areas
[14:10] <huangpo> right
[14:10] <huangpo> HUMINT will definitely get funding now
[14:10] <Theo> HUMINT?
[14:10] <huangpo> Human Intelligence operations: CIA, NSA
[14:11] <huangpo> spies in the field
[14:11] <CLM> thet hing is..
[14:11] <Theo> ah, ok, yes, i agree.
[14:11] <CLM> if people aer trustworthy and honest..
[14:11] <CLM> you sholdn't need as many spies..
[14:11] <CLM> but if people are dishonest
[14:11] <CLM> and out to screw each other...
[14:11] <temas> hah, no
[14:11] <CLM> then we need all this funding
[14:11] <temas> dishonesty is almost ingrained in us
[14:11] <reatmon> we always need spies
[14:11] <huangpo> CLM: it's more complicated than that
[14:12] <temas> but the religious fanatics of some of these nations are honest
[14:12] <CLM> it's really all about economics and resource allocation...
[14:12] <huangpo> temas: agreed
[14:12] <temas> and they truly believe they are following the path to their god
[14:12] <CLM> if you really want to boil it down...
[14:12] <temas> without having someone understand that on a human level, we can't win
[14:12] <huangpo> temas: agreed. I've read the Koran.
[14:12] <CLM> temas, this has gone on for centuries.. nothing new there...
[14:12] <carlb> so do we possibly turn the focus on people who live in this country?
[14:12] <temas> huangpo: interesting isn't it?
[14:12] <huangpo> yup
[14:13] <temas> read it during one of my terrorism binges
[14:13] <huangpo> Many Muslims look to the West as being satanic and responsible for the decay in morality.
[14:13] <CLM> it's really all about economics and resource allocation... people trying to take from each other and others feeling "screwed" that they didn't get their fair share (land, money, anything really) and then acting out basd on what they feel is entitled to them
[14:13] <carlb> the guess is now that this was planned for at least a year.
[14:14] <huangpo> CLM: right, but I think there are even more complications related to conceptions of morality, God, etc.
[14:14] <carlb> Someone had to be living here during this time.
[14:14] <CLM> the question is, is there really enough to go around? If so, how much should ppl "get"? not easy issues by any means...
[14:14] <huangpo> CLM: yup
[14:15] <huangpo> But there is also the attempt to get ppl to accept a set of perceptions and understanding to further political/religious ends.
[14:15] <CLM> huangpo, yes.. but God, morality are just a layer on top of really the economic/resource nature of the reality in how ppl ACTUALLY behave... morality/God is an abstraction that people just use as their own interpretation of why things ahppen and how people SHOULD behave
[14:16] <huangpo> CLM: :) sure, agreed. You and I are looking at the same thing from different perspectives.
[14:16] <CLM> lol
[14:16] <CLM> you know.. if there was only one religion in this world and everyone believed it, i think we'd have less conflict
[14:16] <CLM> also if there was one race of people.. that wold probably help
[14:16] <temas> never will happen though =)
[14:16] <CLM> temas, shuttup.. you're spoiling my siloquy!!!
[14:16] * CLM laughs
[14:16] <temas> society as a whole needs to advance
[14:16] <huangpo> CLM: that's crazy
[14:17] <temas> even amongst civilized countries there isn't "peac"
[14:17] <temas> peace
[14:17] <huangpo> CLM: we need to learn to tolerate and accept diversity
[14:17] <CLM> "peace" is a misnomer.
[14:17] <temas> trade, capitalism, all of that makes us enemies in some way
[14:17] <Theo> if this was Bin Laden, i don't believe this is the end of him, but do you think this was his biggest planned attack? meaning, this was #1 on his list, and now that he pulled it off, he'll tsrat thinking bigger?
[14:17] * temas isn't going marxist
[14:17] <temas> but there has to be a way for everyone to openly trade and be realistic with each other
[14:17] <huangpo> theo: yikes.
[14:17] <CLM> huangpo, yes yes yes.. .. and i think things are improving... theset ypes of incidents are just temporary setbacks
[14:17] <Theo> free market and capitalism may make enemies, but it is better than the aletrnatives.
[14:18] <CLM> temas, almost anything can make an enemy.. some people get upset if you look at them funny... *shrug* there really is no end...
[14:18] <carlb> Bin Laden's group denies that they did it.
[14:18] <temas> bin Laden always denies it
[14:18] <Theo> carlb: well, yeah, of course they would...
[14:18] <huangpo> carlb: what's your resource for this info?
[14:18] <temas> they denied it earlier in a press conference
[14:19] <carlb> NBC
[14:19] * temas saw it on CNN and ABC
[14:19] <Theo> "hi, i'm Bin Laden. i'd just like the US to know yeah, i did it. i'm here in Afghanistan somewhere. wanna play hide and seek?"
[14:19] <huangpo> didn't hear that. thanks.
[14:19] %% temas has left
[14:19] <CLM> well.. a lot of innocent people got screwed...
[14:19] %% temas has joined
[14:19] <ChatBot> [temas]: where's my entry?
[14:19] <CLM> killed, rather
[14:20] <carlb> rescue workers, too
[14:20] <CLM> ya.
[14:20] <carlb> just like being an army medic.
[14:20] <Theo> well, i need to start getting ready for work,
[14:20] <huangpo> lots of police and firemen were killed when they went into the WTC and then collapsed.
[14:21] <Theo> although i doubt it will be bust at work, i have to go...
[14:21] <Theo> so talk to all of you later.
[14:21] <Theo> oh, yeah,
[14:21] <Theo> just for tidbits of info:
[14:21] <Theo> there was a small scare among people who didn't know any better here in Tally.
[14:22] <huangpo> theo: later
[14:22] <Theo> some were thinking that since Bush was here in FL, downtown tallahassee might be a target...
[14:22] <Theo> nevermind the fact that pres Bush wasn't anywhere near Tallahassee....
[14:22] <CLM> where is Bush right now?
[14:22] <x-virge> Air Force One
[14:22] <x-virge> undisclosed destination
[14:22] <Theo> bush is in Luisianna.
[14:23] <temas> "The Safest Place In The World"
[14:23] <x-virge> no, he's not
[14:23] <x-virge> he was only there briefly
[14:23] <temas> he's in the air again
[14:23] <Theo> oh, he isn't?
[14:23] <huangpo> right
[14:23] <CLM> x-virge, where did you hear this?
[14:23] <Theo> ah, ok...
[14:23] <x-virge> CLM: CNN
[14:23] <temas> they will keep him in the air a lot most likely
[14:23] <CLM> i see.
[14:23] <x-virge> yeah
[14:23] <temas> it seriously is damn safe
[14:23] <huangpo> he stopped in LA to make a statement
[14:23] <x-virge> pretty much
[14:23] <reatmon> and for some cajun cooking
[14:23] <temas> heh
[14:23] <huangpo> lots of fighter support at Barksdale AFB
[14:24] <CLM> i think Bush took a vacation at the right time...
[14:24] <temas> what's fairly sick about this attack, is it was pretty much a civilian attack
[14:24] <huangpo> yup
[14:24] <temas> no leaders were targetted
[14:24] <temas> and I don't understand the pentagon attack part
[14:24] <temas> they attacked the side with no brass on it
[14:24] <temas> or very little
[14:24] <temas> it's almost like it was thrown in as an after thought
[14:25] <huangpo> well, I hear rumors that the plane that crashed in Penn supposedly flew very close to Capitol Hill
[14:25] <temas> unless the other plane that went down would have told us something of the plan
[14:25] <CLM> what kind plane was used in the pentagon attack?
[14:25] <temas> 757?
[14:25] <huangpo> not sure
[14:25] <temas> wasn't too big
[14:25] <Theo> the pentagon attack used a private jet plane...
[14:25] <huangpo> collapsed that part of the Pentagon
[14:25] <Theo> source: CNN.
[14:25] <huangpo> many casualties reported at the Pentagon
[14:25] <reatmon> the pentagon was the other american airline jet... I thought.
[14:25] <CLM> i wonder if saddamn hussein is behind this.. everyone seems to be focusong bin-laden
[14:26] <Theo> no, both american airlines crashed into the WTC.
[14:26] <x-virge> Theo: well, if that was a private jet, then the other United flight is unaccounted for
[14:26] <temas> Theo: not that was updated
[14:26] <temas> UA and AA for WTC
[14:26] <temas> from the FBI
[14:26] <x-virge> yeah, I've been hearing a lot of different things
[14:26] <Theo> 3 airline flights, from what i heard.
[14:26] <CLM> AA Flight 11
[14:26] <Theo> 2 into WTC, another crashed in Pennslvania.
[14:26] <huangpo> I've heard they were all commercial airlines
[14:27] <temas> yeah
[14:27] <reatmon> and number four was the pentagon
[14:27] <Theo> and a private jet plan crashed into pentagon.
[14:27] <x-virge> there were definitely 2 UA planes down
[14:27] <x-virge> and 2 AA planes
[14:27] <Theo> http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/dc.terrorism/
[14:27] <huangpo> 4 planes, no private jets that I know of
[14:27] <CLM> wow... 2 stewardesses were stabbed in FLight 11
[14:27] <huangpo> flights: 11, 77, 175, 93
[14:28] <huangpo> just reported now on ABC
[14:28] <x-virge> CLM: where's this?
[14:28] <huangpo> 767s and 757s
[14:28] <CLM> x-virge, just heard on ABC
[14:28] <Theo> right,
[14:28] <huangpo> CLM: just heard that too. that was on one of the planes that went down
[14:28] <Theo> it was a commercial airplane that hit the pentagon...
[14:28] <huangpo> no current flights are apparently in danger
[14:28] <CLM> huangpo, ya.. AA #11.. was the second WTC plane or the first??
[14:28] <reatmon>
There were conflicting reports about what type of craft had smashed into the
Pentagon. An early report said the craft that struck the Pentagon was a
helicopter, but it was later confirmed that the craft was airliner, which witnesses
said accelerated as it approached the building.
[14:29] <CLM> i don't know about you guys.. but i think airport security is pretty weak...
[14:29] <Theo> CLM: it is, *very*
[14:29] <huangpo> former Secretary of State James Baker is calling for greater security measures to be taken at airports and that HUMINT needs more funding
[14:29] <CLM> sometimes i had a belt on and i basically talked the guy in letting me go when it beeped... what if I had a gun or bomb or something and got through?
[14:29] <Theo> msnbc had done a report a few months ago on the lax airport security...
[14:30] <CLM> theo, i saw that.
[14:30] <huangpo> CLM: they stop you and search you pretty thoroughly usually
[14:30] <Theo> ok, all, i really have to go now. no more dillidallying...
[14:30] <Theo> bye...
[14:30] <CLM> huangpo, ya most of the time.
[14:30] <huangpo> Baker is blaming the Church committee hearings on weaking HUMINT
[14:30] <huangpo> later
[14:31] * temas nods
[14:31] <x-virge> huangpo: well, logan airport apparently wasn't doing a good job today :)
[14:32] <huangpo> I'll bet the weapons didn't walk in with the terroists
[14:32] <huangpo> and plastic knives can kill just as well
[14:32] <CLM> yes.
[14:33] <carlb> The basic plot was:
[14:33] <carlb> get transcontinental airliners, full of fuel, and aim them at nearby targets.
[14:34] <huangpo> at the same time
[14:34] <temas> amazing that only one of them possibly failed
[14:34] <CLM> well.. the timing of th 2nd plane was perfect...
[14:34] <CLM> you want people to SEE terrorism...
[14:34] <huangpo> CLM: agreed
[14:34] <CLM> get the cameras rolling.... and you can really make a powerful statement
[14:34] <huangpo> terroism is psychological warfare
[14:35] <temas> initially it is
[14:35] <huangpo> with the least amount of effort
[14:35] <temas> although I don't have a case of I think the goal is to terrorize then be a guerilla
[14:35] <temas> to revolutionize
[14:35] <CLM> they are not mutually exclusive
[14:35] <huangpo> yeah, you got a point
[14:35] <x-virge> huangpo: "psychological warfare" - you know, other than the possibility of the death of 10s of thousands of civilians
[14:35] <CLM> being a guerilla often involves wreaking terrorism
[14:36] <temas> although most don't get past the terrorism
[14:36] <temas> CLM: no, not in it's purist form
[14:36] <huangpo> this will be seen as a victory by anti-US terroist groups
[14:36] <carlb> NBC: Bush is working in a secure area of the White House
[14:36] <CLM> more so of a victory because millions of people saw it happen...
[14:36] <x-virge> carlb: I dunno
[14:36] <huangpo> carlb: thanks, good info
[14:36] <x-virge> carlb: I'm sure that people would've reported Air Force One coming into DC
[14:36] <CLM> carlb, what?? i heard they cleared the white house...
[14:36] <carlb> np
[14:36] %% reatmon has left
[14:37] <carlb> I just heard.
[14:37] <CLM> i think we need bruce willis and/or steven seagal to help clean things up
[14:37] <huangpo> x-virge: the news networks are probably cooperated with the DOD not to report that kind of info
[14:37] <carlb> probably clear of all non-essential (guess).
[14:37] <x-virge> huangpo: I'm watching CNN right now
[14:37] <x-virge> huangpo: cameras pointed straight at white house, etc
[14:38] <x-virge> huangpo: you'd even be able to *see* that stuff land... and I'm sure the DOD is far too busy with other things to organize a media blackout on anything
[14:38] <carlb> There is more lag than you can imagine for reports.
[14:38] <CLM> who is the president meeting with?
[14:38] <x-virge> huangpo: if they want to block out information, they simply don't tell the media anything
[14:39] <carlb> The press has co-operated with the pres b4.
[14:39] <x-virge> right
[14:39] <carlb> part of being a patriot, at times.
[14:39] <CLM> it all depends on the relationship that particular pres has with the members of the pres...
[14:39] <CLM> press
[14:39] <huangpo> I'm hearing that Bush is at SAC on ABC
[14:40] <CLM> SAC?
[14:40] <huangpo> makes more sense than the White House
[14:40] <temas> SAC makes a lot of sense
[14:40] <CLM> what is SAC?
[14:40] <huangpo> Strategic Air Command
[14:40] <temas> AF HQ
[14:40] <temas> in a way
[14:40] <huangpo> in Nebraska
[14:40] <CLM> is that the same as Air Force One?
[14:40] <huangpo> Underground bunker
[14:40] <x-virge> Air Force One is a specific plane
[14:40] <huangpo> Outside Omaha at Offutt AFB
[14:40] <temas> actually Air Force One is the plane he's on =)
[14:40] <carlb> not necessarily.
[14:40] <temas> but, usually it's his decked out one
[14:40] <huangpo> temas: was on
[14:40] <CLM> is there an AIr Forice 2 .. or 3??
[14:41] <carlb> The title follows the president.
[14:41] <huangpo> Yup
[14:41] <x-virge> yeah
[14:41] <huangpo> exactly
[14:41] <x-virge> but Air Force One is not a base or anything :)
[14:41] <carlb> 2 follows the VP.
[14:41] <CLM> oh ok.
[14:41] <CLM> SAC is in Nebraska?
[14:42] <pohl> it is
[14:42] <CLM> ok
[14:42] <CLM> i wonder what Clinton is doing to help out there...
[14:43] <x-virge> Clinton was supposed to be at one of the WTC buildings this morning for a conference
[14:43] <x-virge> er
[14:43] <x-virge> Bill, that is
[14:43] <CLM> hm.
[14:43] <CLM> what conference?
[14:43] <huangpo> haven't heard anything about Clinton
[14:44] <huangpo> x-virge: any more info on the conf at the WTC?
[14:44] <x-virge> CLM: could've just been a small press conference or anything like that
[14:44] <huangpo> what time?
[14:44] <x-virge> no
[14:44] <CLM> wow... what if clinton was one of the victims??
[14:44] <carlb> I bet he's now a late riser.
[14:44] <x-virge> well
[14:44] <x-virge> he probably managed to get out after the first plane
[14:44] <CLM> that would be my guess...
[14:45] <huangpo> x-virge: yeah, he still has Secret Service
[14:45] <x-virge> in fact, he may have left before the plane hit
[14:45] <CLM> could be..
[14:45] <temas> I think that would be more heavily reported too
[14:45] <temas> if there were more substance there
[14:45] <x-virge> because there may have been a bit of advanced knowledge... especially considering the flight paths of the planes from boston
[14:46] <CLM> well.. looks like all we can do now is wait and speculate.
[14:47] <huangpo> things are very serious, considered from a democratic perspective
[14:47] <huangpo> The US president has never had to be covertly brought to SAC to protect him.
[14:48] <CLM> hm
[14:48] <CLM> it's natural that he be concerned for his own safety.
[14:48] <huangpo> Many government leaders are now in undisclosed secure locations
[14:48] <huangpo> CLM: sure, not contesting that.
[14:48] <temas> actually I doubt he is as much as the secret service is
[14:49] <temas> he gets to go where they tell him to
[14:49] <huangpo> I'm just stating how much this is impacting the US.
[14:49] <temas> oh yeah definately
[14:49] <temas> this is a test of a lot of systems
[14:49] <temas> we haven't had to test these in quite a while
[14:49] <huangpo> right
[14:49] <huangpo> exactly
[14:49] <temas> I doubt as heavy of precautions were taken for some of the other recent terrorist acts
[14:50] <huangpo> yup
[14:50] %% justin has left
[14:50] <carlb> this is a nationwide test.
[14:51] <huangpo> the smoke is still billowing from the fire in Manhattan
[14:51] <CLM> i bet some people in the middle east are silently laughing
[14:52] <huangpo> CLM: Unfortunately, I've seen coverage of some Palestinians celebrating
[14:52] * temas too
[14:52] <huangpo> Although Yassir Arafat has condemned the action this morning.
[14:52] <CLM> if it turns out to be the case that this was an act of some islam fundamentalist, i would imagine you can expect to see the approrpriate stereotypes amplified..
[14:53] <CLM> huangpo, they were celebrating...?
[14:53] <huangpo> CLM: unfortunately
[14:53] <huangpo> CLM: I'm sure you will see the footage yourself over the next few days
[14:53] <CLM> ya
[14:54] <CLM> i should probably donate blood
[14:54] <huangpo> that's a good idea
[14:54] <temas> I dunno how much we'll rally against the muslims
[14:54] <temas> I think we're slowly maturing against that
[14:54] <huangpo> I hope so
[14:55] <CLM> you have to wonder if the city of New York has the resources to deal with this..
[14:55] <CLM> getting the people out... getting the ambulances in...
[14:55] <CLM> cordoning off everything...
[14:55] <x-virge> the new jersey turnpike was shut down
[14:56] <x-virge> and there was a huge caravan of ambulances heading for NYC
[14:56] <CLM> i see
[14:56] <x-virge> like, huge :)
[14:56] <carlb> correction: president is in Omaha, NB.
[14:56] <CLM> hehe
[14:56] <huangpo> carlb: right. this was mentioned earlier. He's underground at SAC.
[14:57] <carlb> I just wanted to correct myself.
[14:57] %% matman has joined
[14:57] <ChatBot> [matman]: na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na matman!
[14:58] <huangpo> my god. the fires are still burning to the height of buildings next to the former location of the WTC
[14:59] <huangpo> anyone still caught in the wreckage will be burned to death
[14:59] <CLM> be interesting to see what these flight data recorders have on them
[14:59] * temas swallows and nods
[14:59] <temas> maybe we'll get planes with completely isolated cockpits
[14:59] <DizzyD> i've always wondered why they didn't do that
[14:59] <temas> which I've never understood why we don't have anyway
[14:59] <CLM> so did the buildings go all the way down or just the part above where the planes crashed?
[14:59] <temas> stupid little locked door
[14:59] <DizzyD> the doors on planes are _way_ thin
[15:00] %% miker has left
[15:00] <huangpo> CLM: the entire buildings
[15:00] <pgmillard> DizzyD: it's to save weight dude :)
[15:00] <CLM> huangpo,...unbelievable
[15:01] <huangpo> CLM: when the floors above the crash damage burned, the supports apparently gave way after
[15:01] <CLM> hm
[15:01] <CLM> ok
[15:01] <DizzyD> pgmillard: like..duh..but you don't put paper wings on an airplane to save weight -- you use heavy stuff when you ahve to
[15:01] <x-virge> the top starting falling *straight* down
[15:01] <huangpo> Karen Hughes, Counselor to the President is making a statement
[15:01] <x-virge> it didn't topple or anything
[15:02] <x-virge> so it just went straight to the ground, destroying the entire tower
[15:02] %% justin has joined
[15:02] <temas> huangpo: fill us in with any new details
[15:02] <huangpo> assuring the publc that government functions will continue to operate, banks will stay open, Fed Reserve will stay open
[15:02] <temas> por favor
[15:03] <justin> cisco switches are fun
[15:03] <huangpo> Dept. of Justice has setup a hotline for ppl to call about possible victims of these attacks
[15:03] <huangpo> FAA has grounded all flights for an unk period
[15:04] <huangpo> She's done and walked off the stage
[15:04] <carlb> FAA until noon tomorrow.
[15:05] <huangpo> carlb: thanks
[15:05] <temas> pondering retaliation... I wonder what the ramifications are of a "strong" retaliation to this act
[15:05] <carlb> I guess that they could extend it though
[15:05] <temas> along conventional lines
[15:05] <carlb> this act could be a probe.
[15:05] %% Shayde has joined
[15:05] <ChatBot> [Shayde]: *shrug* *gestures nonchalantly* "whatever"
[15:05] <huangpo> temas: the DOD will have to identify the group responsible first
[15:05] <temas> carlb: well I mean us to them
[15:05] <temas> huangpo: no doubt
[15:05] <Shayde> afternoon folks. won't prepend that with 'good'.
[15:05] <huangpo> once they do, I imagine a massive air attack
[15:05] <CLM> i wonder how long the identification process will take.
[15:06] <temas> just interested in us finally playing our "We're the biggest and baddest" card
[15:06] <carlb> If you do this like chess, this is the first game and we were check-mated.
[15:06] <temas> I mean undoubtedly the military is pissed, it takes very little to get them riled up
[15:06] <x-virge> CLM: they probably know right now. but they're not going to make guesses. if they get this wrong... ugh....
[15:06] <huangpo> temas: agreed. What symbolic retaliation will we make?
[15:06] <CLM> i can't remember.. how long did it take to identify the perpetrators of the 1993 incident??
[15:06] <x-virge> CLM: er, not "guesses" - but premature statements
[15:06] <huangpo> CLM: 3 years to prosecute
[15:07] <huangpo> CLM: not sure to identify
[15:07] <temas> not too long to actually decide on someone though
[15:07] <CLM> x-virge, it's possible they do already know... yes
[15:07] <huangpo> I'll bet they suspect bin Laden, because of past events
[15:07] <x-virge> about the Pentagon:
[15:07] <x-virge> " Retired Gen. Wesley Clark, former supreme NATO commander, said the aircraft appeared to hit the southwestern side, or the Army side of the building, the area responsible for planning and logistics.
"We've known for some time that some group has been planning this," he said, adding that "obviously, we didn't do enough" to prepare for such an attack.
"
[15:07] <x-virge> source: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/11/pentagon.terrorism/
[15:07] <huangpo> thanks, good info
[15:07] <carlb> If all air targets have been taken down, what civilian resouces could you use to make the next impact?
[15:07] <temas> interesting
[15:08] <CLM> "some group"
[15:08] <CLM> either they knew the group
[15:08] <temas> might slowly be seeing signs of poor communication between groups
[15:08] <temas> CIA, military intelligence, FBI, etc
[15:08] <CLM> or they just had a vague notion that it would happen sometime or another but didn't know from who
[15:08] <huangpo> carlb: bacteriological/chemical warfare
[15:08] <x-virge> CLM: I'd imagine they know the group
[15:08] <x-virge> CLM: I'd also imagine that they don't want to say just yet
[15:08] <CLM> x-virge.. right.. but not specfiying just yet
[15:08] <carlb> too obvious of a target.
[15:08] <huangpo> I live near many petrochemical plants that would release poison gas if a bomb was detonated there
[15:09] <huangpo> x-virge: agreed
[15:09] <carlb> We have always thought and debate about that scenerio.
[15:09] <x-virge> huangpo: so do the entire states of delaware and new jersey :)
[15:09] <temas> they won't want to say until they have a plan formed
[15:09] <temas> otherwise they have too much public pressure
[15:09] <x-virge> huangpo: south jersey, at least
[15:09] <huangpo> agreed
[15:10] <carlb> Salt Lake is near a few plants too.
[15:10] <huangpo> We are very vulnerable to terroist actions
[15:10] <carlb> The next possible target could be several fuel trucks on the interstate.
[15:11] <carlb> It's along the same lines in some ways.
[15:11] <huangpo> probably large public events
[15:11] <huangpo> like the SuperBowl
[15:11] <carlb> plants are in more remote areas.
[15:11] <huangpo> BBC is showing anti-bin Laden footage now
[15:12] <carlb> The SuperBowl has too much surveilance.
[15:12] <temas> eww superbowl
[15:12] <temas> another clancy novel
[15:12] <carlb> Every face's picture is taken.
[15:12] <x-virge> Wilmington is a top pick if you want to hit financial centers
[15:12] <huangpo> carlb: vulnerable to air attack
[15:12] <x-virge> which is why Delaware declared a state of emergency really early
[15:12] <carlb> possible.
[15:12] <CLM> i wonder how long this attack had been under planning...
[15:13] <CLM> several years at the minimum.
[15:13] <temas> estimates are a year
[15:13] <temas> from what I heard early on
[15:13] <CLM> ya.. ok
[15:13] <huangpo> this is the success continuation of the original 93 bombing of the WTC
[15:13] <x-virge> why several? it was probably a year
[15:13] <huangpo> which was not successful
[15:13] <CLM> x-virge, why NOT several?
[15:14] <x-virge> CLM: uh, because it could probably be done in less
[15:14] <huangpo> I would say, a minimum of a year
[15:14] <tcharron> What, to pull this off?
[15:14] <x-virge> tcharron: yes
[15:14] <CLM> x-virge, who said it had to be done in the least amount of time possible?
[15:14] <huangpo> ok, less
[15:15] <huangpo> CLM: right.
[15:15] <x-virge> CLM: longer time you spend planning it, more time for intelligence to find out about it
[15:15] <CLM> what if the plans changed in middle?
[15:15] <huangpo> ah, see your point
[15:15] <CLM> x-virge, yes.. but if you rush it and make mistakes, then you might screw up and intellgience will definitely find out about it
[15:15] <tcharron> Dude, all they needed was an airline reservation system, which are available, to know where each ones where coming and going from, a little data on the plane number, which is also easy to get, and a coupla sat. phones..
[15:15] <huangpo> but in the case of bin Laden's organization, it is very hard for western HUMINT to penetrate
[15:16] <tcharron> Oh, and a phony bomb to wrap around their waist to scare the frig outa the guys on the plane. Once in the cockpit, kick the pilots out..
[15:16] <tcharron> Then, 'Point and Click'
[15:16] <tcharron> There where 767s..
[15:16] <tcharron> They can fly themselves, you just point them..
[15:16] <matman> I don't know why everyone thinks that it was such a hugely complex attack.. all they need is a consultant to explain how to avoid airport security mechanisms, a couple of piolets willing to die with military training, a bit of info about what planes are flying when and where and a few plane tickets.
[15:16] <CLM> how long did Mcveigh take in planning the oklhamoa city bombing.. anyone know offhand?
[15:16] <tcharron> They are completely fly by wire
[15:17] <huangpo> sure, Occam's razor.
[15:17] <tcharron> matman: Exactly..
[15:17] <temas> I'm sorry but I don't buy either of those
[15:17] <tcharron> Stupidly easy
[15:17] <huangpo> but not necessarily so.
[15:17] <temas> 1yr planning
[15:17] <tcharron> Bah..
[15:17] <tcharron> It doesnt matter..
[15:17] <tcharron> Nuke 'em..
[15:17] <tcharron> 8-)
[15:18] <huangpo> Jordanian ambassador is denouncing the action.
[15:18] <tcharron> Of course..
[15:18] <huangpo> Marwan Muasher
[15:18] <CLM> it'd be kind of odd if he approved the action =) LOL
[15:18] <tcharron> They know we're warming the B1s right now
[15:19] <huangpo> tcharron: you should get the facts before you start incriminating people, chief.
[15:19] <tcharron> huangpo: Fuck that.. Nuke them all.. Bound to get the right ones..
[15:19] <huangpo> guess you get nuked too then
[15:20] <tcharron> ANY COUNTRY who would be involved in terrorist activities AT ALL should suffer the consequences from this..
[15:20] <CLM> it's so easy to sit back in your chair behind some computer and go "oh.. this was such an easy task to pull off... just get some people to hijack an airplane, etc..etc."
[15:20] <huangpo> tcharron: do you really want to have this argument here and now?
[15:21] <tcharron> huangpo: I'm just saying that, while a very prejidicial statement, I will NOT sirt back and say we should simply accept this and be cery carefull..
[15:21] <tcharron> huangpo: IF WE DO, this will start to become a regular thing..
[15:21] <huangpo> The US mistakenly bombed a factory in Africa because we thought they were related to bin Laden.
[15:21] <matman> well, not easy - I mean the guys that did it died. When you're willing to die for it, the mechanics of the operation become more simple, as you are willing to accept more risk. Like, it wasn't easy, but it may not have required such a large amount of planning
[15:22] <tcharron> matman: And these guys think they get a free ticket to heaven for doing it..
[15:22] <huangpo> tcharron: you are wrong. Bomb the right ppl or piss more off.
[15:22] <tcharron> huangpo: Bomb them all, and let god sort them out..
[15:22] <tcharron> huangpo: Thats how they are looking at us..
[15:22] <tcharron> So treat them no difference..
[15:22] <tcharron> Err, different
[15:22] <huangpo> when you say "them all" who do you mean exactly?
[15:23] <tcharron> Any country who was remotely connected to any terrorist activity..
[15:23] <huangpo> You don't know what the fuck you are talking about
[15:23] <matman> once they are discovered, maybe the US should put most energy into resolving the terrorists grievances (the ones that incited these attacks)
[15:24] <temas> no
[15:24] <temas> we're satan
[15:24] <temas> we're sin
[15:24] <tcharron> huangpo: I had people I knew in that building, who are, along with possibly up to 40 THOUSAND OTHER PEOPLE under m,illions of tons of steel and concrete, their bodies intermingled, headless, bodyless. Some JUMPED from 80 STORIES UP to escape the flames.. 3 people *I KNEW*
[15:24] <temas> we're evil
[15:24] <carlb> the LDS church has closed Utah temples and the downtown locations.
[15:24] <temas> they want to purge us
[15:24] <carlb> Downtown malls have closed.
[15:25] <matman> temas: we've got to figure out who 'they' are first, of course.
[15:25] <tcharron> huangpo: How many people did YOU know? When was the last time someone you knew, someplace YOU had been, have been destyoed in this manner?
[15:25] <huangpo> tcharron: I'm very sorry for your loss, but indiscriminately killing more people won't improve the situation
[15:25] <temas> yes, my statement was assuming certain things
[15:25] <CLM> tcharron, so you knew people who jumped?
[15:25] %% nrabe has joined
[15:25] <tcharron> CLM: I dunno if I knew them specifically, but I knew people who worked int he towers..
[15:25] <CLM> BAH! tcharron didn't know anyone in the towers
[15:25] <CLM> =)
[15:25] <huangpo> tcharron: I do agree that those responsible should be killed.
[15:25] %% nrabe is now known as Snr
[15:26] <tcharron> huangpo: Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying blanket the entire midfdle east in a nuclear holocost for crying out loud..
[15:26] <huangpo> that's exactly what you said earlier
[15:26] <CLM> you said "nuke em"
[15:26] <x-virge> tcharron: it is exactly what you said earlier
[15:26] <CLM> "nukem em all"
[15:26] <CLM> perhaps you were kidding tcharron
[15:26] <tcharron> huangpo: I'm saying countries that harbor and ASSIST terrorists should be consided an enemy of the united states, and treated as such..
[15:26] <x-virge> tcharron: you said we should destroy all nations remotely involved in terrorist acts
[15:26] <CLM> but you're not funny
[15:26] <huangpo> agreed
[15:26] * temas goes to watch TV as gabber comiles
[15:26] <tcharron> x-virge: Exactly..
[15:26] <huangpo> tcharron: agreed
[15:26] <carlb> The stone thrown in the pond is creating more and more ripples.
[15:27] <tcharron> CLM: I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be funny..
[15:27] <x-virge> tcharron: "destroy" and "treat as enemy" are two entirely different things
[15:27] <huangpo> tcharron: wait a sec. what's the difference?
[15:27] <CLM> tcharron, then quit spouting stupid fucking opinions that don't contribute to the discussion in a positive manner and that serve to only piss people off..
[15:27] <huangpo> tcharron: I think you are being irrational because of your emotions right now.
[15:27] <huangpo> CLM: well put
[15:27] <huangpo> let's not start a flame fest
[15:27] <CLM> everyone's been civil in this room except you.
[15:27] <tcharron> huangpo: You destroy an enemy. You do not play nice with them. When a lions going at your throat, you shoot it. Sure, poor, poor lion, but you kill it..
[15:27] <huangpo> lets get the facts
[15:28] <CLM> huangpo, yes
[15:28] <huangpo> tcharron: first you identify an enemy
[15:28] <huangpo> with a rational frame of mind
[15:28] <tcharron> huangpo: ANYONE who says that the US is satan and should be hurt..
[15:28] <tcharron> huangpo: Theres your enemy..
[15:29] <CLM> <tcharron> huangpo: Fuck that.. Nuke them all.. Bound to get the right ones.. <-- you truly are an idiot
[15:29] <huangpo> sure
[15:29] <huangpo> CLM: agreed
[15:29] <CLM> <tcharron> CLM: I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be funny..
[15:29] <CLM> idiot
[15:29] <huangpo> tcharron: Nuking every country associated with terroism ain't a solution.
[15:29] <tcharron> Look at what happened with Libya..
[15:30] <Shayde> he's not an idiot. he's just had close friends die. this is not the time or place to work out this issue.
[15:30] <tcharron> They where involved..
[15:30] <tcharron> And we bombed the hell outa the presidents house..
[15:30] <huangpo> Shayde: not die. involved.
[15:30] <temas> minds aren't rational in any case right now
[15:30] <CLM> shayde, my cousin may have been in one of the towers... do you see saying saying asinine statements?
[15:30] <CLM> me.
[15:30] <CLM> temas, you are right
[15:30] <tcharron> Ever hear of them making any sort of a 'They must die, they are satan' statement again?
[15:30] <Shayde> no, i'm saying attaching tcharron now calling him an idiot is not right...
[15:30] <huangpo> tcharron: not everyone living in those countries that support terroism believe in terroism as a justified action
[15:31] <CLM> shayde, some people need to be put in their place when appropriate.
[15:31] <tcharron> So what do you propose we do?
[15:31] <Shayde> this is -not- the appropriate time.
[15:31] <huangpo> let's all calm down and get the facts
[15:31] <tcharron> To ensure tghis doesnt ever happen again?
[15:31] <CLM> tcharron, i propse we get all the facts.. obtain all the vidence.. make a good case...
[15:31] <tcharron> I'm open, and wont interupt, what is your opinion?
[15:31] <huangpo> and then bomb the fuck out of those people responsible
[15:32] <CLM> yes.
[15:32] <tcharron> CLM: And if next week, we open up the skies again, and it happens again, what then?
[15:32] <CLM> tcharron, first of all... there is AWLAYS the possibility that this will happen again.
[15:32] <huangpo> then find those responsible again that are still alive and bomb the fuck outta them
[15:32] <tcharron> huangpo: And who is responsible?
[15:32] <tcharron> huangpo: Internally, they're gonna be laughing their asses off, think they're going to come out and say 'We did it'?
[15:32] <huangpo> you can't starting bombing people indiscriminately because they live in a country that supports terroism
[15:33] <huangpo> you are talking genocide chief
[15:33] <CLM> tcharron, what if all the icebergs melt and all the costal cities flood... then what? your statements are ridiculously unrealistic.. there is ALWAYS the possiblity of this happening... and if people are continusouly willing to die in the name of these actions and their religion, there really is NOT Much you can do to prevent them from taking their own lives (and the others in the process)... correct???
[15:33] <tcharron> Every time the US had attempted to 'target' a specific area to attempt to selectivly nuetralize individual parties, it has failed horribly..
[15:33] <tcharron> Look guys, I think we're all on the same page..
[15:33] <huangpo> you are wrong
[15:34] <tcharron> I may be sounding a bit harsh, becouse I'm pissed..
[15:34] <huangpo> I understand that.
[15:34] <CLM> tcharron, i'm NOT on the same page as you with your stupid asinine statements of "nuke them all".. speak for your goddamn self
[15:34] <tcharron> And, as CLM so elequenty said before, we're all free here, so I can hold my opinion if I wish..
[15:34] <huangpo> I'm very sorry that ppl you know might be dead.
[15:35] <tcharron> Example..
[15:35] <huangpo> tcharron: I've served in the USN to defend your right to speak freely.
[15:35] <tcharron> That Binladen guy (sp?
[15:35] <tcharron> ) is known to be in Afganistan
[15:35] <tcharron> And the government ADMITS he's there..
[15:35] <CLM> tcharron, question, do you want me to take your opinion seriously or not?
[15:35] <tcharron> And several weeks ago he publically stated something like this is gonna happen
[15:36] <huangpo> so nuking Afghanistan will solve the problem?
[15:36] <tcharron> CLM: Your free to take it at face value, I'm merely stating my currently pissed off opinion..
[15:36] <huangpo> do you know how many innocent men, women and children live in Afghanistan?
[15:36] <CLM> well, maybe you need to calm down before making yourself look like a total asshole.
[15:36] <Snr> excuse me. I'm from argentina. I was about 13 when i saw CNN covering Gulf War, with nice Precision Bombs... that could be a good solution, in the event that American ppl can target the guilty. The country is innocent, but if this is state-sponsored-terrorism, well, they have to learn not to doit again. Thought. Not the ppl, but the gov who supported, right?
[15:36] <tcharron> huangpo: No, but saying give him up, or we'll friggen bomb the hell outa yer capital would..
[15:36] %% justin has left
[15:36] <huangpo> tcharron: then say so
[15:37] <Shayde> tch: who are we to threaten another country? are we at war with afghanistan?
[15:37] <huangpo> and don't say "nuke them all and let god sort em out
[15:37] <huangpo> "
[15:37] <Shayde> we would have NO justification for killing millions of innocent people in Kabul because of one man.
[15:37] <huangpo> agreed
[15:37] <Shayde> we'd be just as bad as the people who blew up the WTC.
[15:37] <tcharron> Shayde: Yes, we are. They have him, he calls us satan and PUBLICALLY STATES he wants to see us all die, yes, we are at war with them..
[15:37] <tcharron> Period..
[15:37] <Shayde> no, we are at war with -bin laden-, not with Afghanistan.
[15:37] <Shayde> you are suggesting killing millions of Afghanis.
[15:37] <CLM> if your emotions are preventing you from expressing your opinion in a respectful and well-thoguht out manner, then don't expect us to take you seriously... and you obviosuly want us to listen otherwise you wouldn't have bothered typing it all out
[15:37] <huangpo> tcharron: you are being unrealistic
[15:38] <tcharron> I'm suggesting we do no different then we did in Iraq..
[15:38] <huangpo> did we nuke Iraq?
[15:38] <tcharron> Guys, I'M NOT SAYING use ICBMs on the country for crying out loud..
[15:38] <Shayde> in Iraq, we were at war with the government there, and its leaders.
[15:38] <tcharron> Nuklear weapons are obviously stupid..
[15:38] <Shayde> still are at war.
[15:38] <huangpo> what I really want is a function to ignore you, tcharron.
[15:38] <CLM> huangpo, LOL
[15:38] <huangpo> you aren't making rational sense
[15:39] <CLM> jabber still needs some work.. heheh
[15:39] <tcharron> Shayde: And by the government of Afganistan making the statement it did withith 20 minutes of this happening, we are now at war with them. They have him,. intend to protect him..
[15:39] <huangpo> at least right now
[15:39] <huangpo> tcharron: "we" being who?
[15:39] <temas> what's CNN airing?
[15:39] <temas> I hear weird noises in the other room
[15:39] <tcharron> The United States..
[15:39] <huangpo> don't have CNN
[15:39] <x-virge> temas: amateur video from a doctor
[15:40] <CLM> tcharron, dude.. you nejoy your great standard of living based on the US gunboat diplomacy international policy that has given you the privelge for how you live.. consider that before making stupid claims of destroying the lives of millions of others..
[15:40] <tcharron> I keep trying to get video feeds on me desktop, but all the sources are full..
[15:40] <huangpo> tcharron: how bout just toning it down a bit while we try to exchange actual facts?
[15:40] <x-virge> temas: showing the post-apocalyptic-like area where emergency teams are trying to help
[15:40] <temas> ah
[15:40] <temas> it sounds weird
[15:40] <Shayde> tch: the problem is theres no easy answer here... iw ish there were. blowing things up is very satisfying when there is a clear target and a clear precedent, and would accomplish our goal. the problem here is, there is no clear target. what we've just seen is the result of a few hundred people (max) working together targeting us. theres not a concrete 'enemy' to shoot back. the way we win is we fix what has broken, we mend what has hurt, we become stronger, safer, and more assured. THe next time this tries to happen, we stop it from happening, grin a vicious grin and say "We are stronger than you. We can withstand your pitiful childish attacks. Find someone else who is scared by you. We are not."
[15:40] <tcharron> CLM: Which I did my part to uphold when I served in the Air Force..
[15:41] <CLM> tcharron, then what I say should make PERFECT sense to you then and there should be NO ambiguity.
[15:41] <Shayde> this, btw, is NOT the attitude shared by the current administration (noteable the Shrub, alas. he is as childish as those he is 'fighting' against. simpleminded and arrogant.)
[15:41] <huangpo> tcharron: great. Thanks for your service. Now shut up for a bit while we try to exchange actual info.
[15:41] <tcharron> Shayde: Thats what I mean, no clear target, then shotgun approach. Stop the war on drugs. START a war on Terrorizm. Let them know, if you intend to commit terrorist acts, you are the enemy, and will be treated as such. Dont retaliate as a reaction,. Proactivly eliminate the threat. Otherwise, this will continue. And become worse..
[15:41] <CLM> shayde, in theory, that is the best response...
[15:42] <tcharron> Ever see a kid steal a cookie from a coockie jar? Ever see that be the LAST time they try it?
[15:42] <huangpo> let's not start flaming each other and politics. I'd still like to get news
[15:42] <huangpo> does anybody have any updates?
[15:42] <x-virge> NYSE, AMSE, NYME, and NASDAQ will not open tomorrow.
[15:43] <huangpo> thanks
[15:43] <huangpo> source?
[15:43] <CLM> maybe the issue is more than just terrorism.. maybe it's the US's policies.. international policies that suppress other countries... (just giving example)... maybe that will make OTHER people in OTHER countries feel like they have a chance in life at making something for themselves instead of trying to be controlled by the US.. maybe that may cause them to NOT want to harm the US.. has this ever occurred to you??
[15:43] <x-virge> huangpo: CNN
[15:43] <tcharron> They cant open. If the markets where to open, they would crash..
[15:43] <huangpo> CLM: how bout toning it down?
[15:43] <tcharron> Already affected the foreign markets..
[15:44] <CLM> huangpo, sorry.. but i'm very highly annoyed at this utter display of ignorance in this channel.. I apologize
[15:44] <tcharron> Ok, I'm sorry if I offend you guys, I'll shadap about my wild opinions, becouse they are obviously known..
[15:44] <huangpo> CLM and tcharron: its ok. I'm pissed too. but let's keep a clear head and get more facts first
[15:44] <huangpo> then we start bombing :)
[15:44] <tcharron> Anyway, if the markets did open tommorow, it would be a bloodbath simply from foreign investors pulling out to protect themselves from possible backlash from whatever ends up happening..
[15:44] <temas> if only I had irc ops on here
[15:45] * temas sets the mode to +m
[15:45] <huangpo> tcharron: agreed
[15:45] * tcharron ROTFL
[15:45] <CLM> temas, LOL!
[15:45] <huangpo> * laughs.
[15:45] <huangpo> ack
[15:45] * huangpo laughs
[15:45] <CLM> ONE THING i should say: I WISH everyone on this channel goes and donates blood sometime this week as a moral victory.
[15:45] <tcharron> I hope when they do open, things stabilize..
[15:46] <tcharron> I can agree with that..
[15:46] <CLM> good.
[15:46] <huangpo> someone named Amy Akers ran down 99 floors and got out before it collapsed
[15:46] <Shayde> i will, but local hospitals are overwhelmed right now.
[15:46] <tcharron> And I am petrified of needles, but I'm gonna go give blood..
[15:46] <huangpo> CLM: good idea
[15:46] <Shayde> MANY people got out of the buildings.
[15:46] <CLM> this is no laughing matter.. im still awaiting word from my cousin.
[15:46] <CLM> he works for Goldamn Sachs in one of the towers...
[15:46] <tcharron> CLM: I hope they're ok..
[15:46] <huangpo> same here
[15:46] <CLM> tcharron: thanks.. me too
[15:46] * temas has a problem giving up blood
[15:46] <Shayde> roomates cousin got out of the 35th floor on T2...
[15:47] <Shayde> T2 was the second one hit, the first one to collapse.
[15:47] <temas> I always have for some reason
[15:47] <Shayde> we've heard of folks getting out from much higher floors.
[15:47] <CLM> tcharron, nah.. giving blood is not that bad really =)
[15:47] <pgmillard> CLM: fwiw, there are 4hr waits here to donate blood... they are asking people to come back tommorrow.
[15:47] <huangpo> Shayde: good to hear
[15:47] <pgmillard> CLM: which is a very good thing ;/
[15:47] <CLM> pgmillrd, that's why i said "sometime this week" in my statements above.
[15:47] <tcharron> Naw, see, I got tbhis fight or flight thing go on when I'm around needles..
[15:47] <tcharron> I dunno what it is, I just panik and want to get out of these..
[15:48] <temas> see my prob is, my blood signed an NDA
[15:48] <temas> to me
[15:48] <temas> and a non compete
[15:48] <Shayde> nyuknyuk.
[15:48] <temas> so it can't leave me
[15:48] <huangpo> tcharron: its not that bad. try and get through it for those in need
[15:48] <tcharron> HeHe
[15:48] <tcharron> huangpo: I intend to..
[15:48] * Shayde is considered 'unsafe' for blood donation, but they may relax it for this drive.
[15:48] <temas> I've been sick recently too
[15:48] <temas> so I dunno
[15:48] <CLM> you know..
[15:48] <CLM> http://www.pentagon.com
[15:48] <CLM> it's amazing that there are people with cameras to capture history... simply amazing
[15:49] <tcharron> huangpo: But ey're sure gonna have to either have A) A HUGE guy to hold me down, or B) A VERY sweet nurse.. It'll prob end up being C) My wife, which in some ways would be both A and B.. 8-P
[15:49] <huangpo> :)
[15:50] <tcharron> My wifes a looker, but has a way to do the 'Sit down or I'm gonna kick yer ass'.. 8-P
[15:51] <Shayde> hee :)
[15:51] <Shayde> GIF! GIF!
[15:51] <Shayde> (this may be the most active people on jdev i've ever seen. :-/ )
[15:52] <huangpo> Shimon Peres is on ABC denouncing the action.
[15:52] * tcharron goes to look in the logs
[15:52] <temas> name doesn't ring a bell
[15:53] <huangpo> Foreign Minister of Israel
[15:53] <Shayde> uhhh israeli for... yeah, what he said.
[15:53] <huangpo> answering questions from the anchorman Tom Jennings
[15:53] <carlb> peres on nbc now
[15:53] <huangpo> nope: not Jennings, Tom Brokaw
[15:53] <huangpo> right NBC
[15:53] <temas> hehe
[15:53] <huangpo> sorry for the mistake
[15:54] <temas> Jennings made me laugh a few times
[15:54] <temas> he got pissed at his staff
[15:54] <huangpo> :)
[15:54] <temas> very stern with them while on camera
[15:55] <huangpo> Charles Gibson on ABC saying that there are many casualties but no good numbers yet
[15:55] <huangpo> reported rough numbers of 2100 dead, 1500 wounded
[15:55] %% Snr has left
[15:55] <huangpo> Does anyone know the date of the Camp David accords between Sadat and Begin?
[15:56] <Shayde> very very close to this date.
[15:56] <Shayde> huang: REALLY?
[15:56] <Shayde> that's -very- small
[15:56] <huangpo> I wanna say it was today in 74(?)
[15:56] <CLM> http://www.pentagon.com has a good timeline... check it out
[15:56] <temas> huangpo: Sep 11
[15:56] <huangpo> shit
[15:56] <temas> I'm pretty sure at least
[15:56] <Shayde> huang: is this just the WTC numbers?
[15:56] <huangpo> "hundreds of ppl coming in, burned head to toe..."
[15:57] <huangpo> Shayde: yes
[15:57] <Shayde> *nod*
[15:57] <Shayde> thats still an order of magnitude less than what we feared.
[15:57] <CLM> huangpo, i heard that...
[15:58] <huangpo> "hospitals anticipate more bodies to be brought in"
[15:58] <Shayde> i'm sure.
[15:58] <huangpo> FEMA have activate all regional response centers
[15:58] <Shayde> but still.
[15:58] <CLM> "12 urban and rescue teams are being dispatched"
[15:58] <huangpo> s/activate/activated/
[15:58] <huangpo> "National Emergency Response plan activated..."
[15:59] <huangpo> ~to handle the numbers of casualties
[15:59] <CLM> 2100 ppl injured...
[15:59] <huangpo> 8:45 1st plane
[15:59] <CLM> (except this to rise)
[15:59] <huangpo> 903 2nd plane
[16:00] <CLM> huangpo: eastern time right??
[16:00] <huangpo> 940 plane crashes into pentagon
[16:00] <x-virge> huangpo: there are plenty of timelines, please don't repeat here :)
[16:00] <huangpo> 958 1st tower collapses
[16:00] <huangpo> sorry
[16:00] <CLM> x-virge good point... http://www.pentagon.com has a good one
[16:00] <huangpo> thanks, couldn't get thru
[16:00] <x-virge> CLM: they're all copying one another
[16:00] <Shayde> http://www.livejournal.com/users/dangerpest/
[16:00] <Shayde> that's quite a picture.
[16:00] <CLM> x-virge, ah.. hehe.
[16:01] <huangpo> seeing pictures of the base of the north WTC tower. the whole thing is gone
[16:02] <tcharron> Yea..
[16:02] <temas> cnn?
[16:02] <CLM> i heard they lost something like 100 T3s...
[16:02] <huangpo> ABC
[16:02] <tcharron> More then that..
[16:02] <tcharron> Those buildings are wired direct with Fibre..
[16:02] <tcharron> We're talking OC3s..
[16:03] <huangpo> I hear that another WTC building is in danger of collapsing
[16:03] <CLM> i forget. how much is an oc3?
[16:03] <huangpo> specifically #7 WTC
[16:03] <Shayde> yes, a building right next to the towers is ready to go.
[16:03] <matman> apparently there was a webcam on the 77th floor
[16:03] * temas caught it
[16:03] <temas> freaky
[16:03] <tcharron> matman: Really? Is there a URL for images?
[16:03] <matman> nope, not so far.
[16:04] <matman> it would have been crazy to watch from that cam as it went down
[16:04] <tcharron> OC3 is 155 Mbps
[16:05] <tcharron> *sigh*
[16:06] <tcharron> Oh wow..
[16:06] <tcharron> They redirected the world trade centers home page to the red cross..
[16:06] <Shayde> good call.
[16:07] <temas> is it just me or does it feel like we're already slightly recovering and rapidly moving to help out
[16:07] <temas> like it's a quick turn around time
[16:07] <Shayde> people are remarkably good at it.
[16:07] <Shayde> US folks can be damned decent, organized, and motivated when faced with stuff like this.
[16:07] <DizzyD> temas: most people are just getting into shock I think
[16:07] <tcharron> Yea..
[16:07] <tcharron> Speaking of which, I gotta go..
[16:08] <huangpo> hope your ppl are ok
[16:08] <Shayde> i worry about the zealots... i heard a congressman spouting opportunistic crap earlier today that was... scary.
[16:08] <Shayde> best hopes, tcharron.
[16:08] <tcharron> Me wife is debating on Driving down to the NY line to help out at hospitals there..
[16:08] <tcharron> Shes an RN
[16:08] <Shayde> tch:... dont
[16:08] <Shayde> dont drive into the city.
[16:08] <Shayde> train.
[16:08] <tcharron> Shes calling the Red Cross to offer help now
[16:08] <Shayde> good call. they can say if its possible to even get in there.
[16:09] <tcharron> Yeppers..
[16:09] * tcharron waves
[16:09] %% nikgus_ has left
[16:09] <temas> later
[16:09] <tcharron> Sorry for pissing ya all off..
[16:09] <tcharron> Just call me a dick tommorow..
[16:09] * tcharron waves
[16:09] <huangpo> tcharron: no harm done :)
[16:09] %% tcharron has left
[16:11] %% tcharron has joined
[16:12] <tcharron> Before I go, you should look at this:
[16:12] <tcharron> http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/legal/police/terror95.html
[16:12] <tcharron> Its more then likely the law that will be used to find the people who did it..
[16:12] <tcharron> It's about the The Effective Death Penalty and Anti-Terrorism Act of 1996
[16:13] <huangpo> thanks
[16:13] %% tcharron has left
[16:13] <huangpo> just seeing a new video of the 2nd attack on ABC
[16:13] <huangpo> The airplane just disappears into the building
[16:13] <huangpo> then a huge fireball explosion
[16:14] <matman> i saw that too
[16:14] <matman> very 'cool'
[16:14] <matman> 'cool' in the sense of interesting, not good.
[16:14] <huangpo> horrible is a better term
[16:14] * Shayde is tired of videos, and is working for a while. :(
[16:15] <huangpo> Shayde: understandible
[16:15] * DizzyD nods
[16:15] %% pohl has left
[16:18] * temas is getting there too
[16:20] %% carlb has left
[16:21] %% sepio has joined
[16:21] %% sepio has left
[16:24] %% gst has joined
[16:25] <DizzyD> ChatBot: What do you think of all this?
[16:25] <ChatBot> DizzyD: Why do you ask?
[16:25] <DizzyD> ChatBot: Well, it would certainly be nice to have an unbiased opinon
[16:25] <ChatBot> DizzyD: I see.
[16:25] <DizzyD> ChatBot: You see...?
[16:25] <ChatBot> DizzyD: What are your feelings now?
[16:25] <DizzyD> ChatBot: Pretty outraged, I guess.
[16:25] <ChatBot> DizzyD: You say you guess?
[16:25] <DizzyD> ChatBot: Well, it's all very surreal
[16:25] <ChatBot> DizzyD: Please go on.
[16:26] <DizzyD> ChatBot: It's hard to fathom..all those people.
[16:26] <ChatBot> DizzyD: Please go on.
[16:26] <DizzyD> ChatBot: Why don't you?
[16:26] <ChatBot> DizzyD: What do you think?
[16:26] <temas> sometimes the bots just don't understand
[16:26] <DizzyD> ChatBot: You just don't get it! <sob>
[16:26] <ChatBot> DizzyD: We were discussing you -- not me.
[16:26] <Shayde> poor bots.
[16:26] * DizzyD sighs
[16:28] <temas> I think I shall play some games shortly
[16:28] <temas> need to avert my mind from everything
[16:31] <CLM> ugh
[16:31] %% DizzyD2 has joined
[16:31] <DizzyD2> yay
[16:31] <DizzyD2> new scm is fully operational
[16:31] <temas> still working eh?
[16:31] <DizzyD2> dialback is working properly on .com
[16:31] <temas> got it working with j.c?
[16:31] <temas> cool
[16:31] <DizzyD2> yes..and it's as fast as being on the .org server directly with GC :)
[16:32] * DizzyD2 cheers and feels some good come of the day
[16:32] %% DizzyD2 has left
[16:32] <temas> excellent work diz
[16:32] <temas> now we just need a config manager so we can ditch the main thing on jabber.org =)
[16:33] <temas> then we'll be all set ;-)
[16:33] <DizzyD> yeah
[16:35] <huangpo> WTC building #7 just collapsed
[16:36] <x-virge> and Tom Clancy dissed CNN (while being interviewed by CNN)
[16:36] <temas> x-virge: was it a replay of his earlier interview or a new one
[16:36] <huangpo> shit, wish I could have seen that
[16:36] <temas> what did he say?
[16:37] <x-virge> it wasn't major
[16:37] <x-virge> he just basically said that CNN spends all this time talking about what goes wrong
[16:37] <x-virge> but never mentions what people could do to make it go right (as in, where the money should be flowing, in this case)
[16:37] <huangpo> good for him
[16:38] <huangpo> have to agree, the media tends to only report the sensational.
[16:38] <x-virge> he said we need to put a lot more money into intelligence
[16:38] <x-virge> as temas was saying earlier
[16:38] <x-virge> and as my uncle was saying to me just two weeks ago
[16:38] <huangpo> have to agree now
[16:39] <temas> x-virge: a little bright news for you
[16:39] <temas> I got FT going =)
[16:39] <x-virge> temas: nice :)
[16:40] <temas> should I try and commit or what?
[16:41] <temas> adds a .cc, .hh, ui, pixmap, and modifies jabberoo and TCPT a bit
[16:41] <x-virge> one sec
[16:41] <x-virge> ok
[16:41] <x-virge> sure, commit
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[16:48] <temas> ack... forgot about the damn IQs
[16:48] <temas> so it only does msgs right now
[16:48] <temas> but it's a start
[16:51] <x-virge> the hijackers on the plane which went into the pentagon only had knives
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[17:01] <huangpo> x-virge: resource?
[17:01] %% tweedledee has joined
[17:02] <x-virge> a woman on the flight called her husband shortly before it crashed
[17:02] <x-virge> CNN
[17:02] <huangpo> oh yeah. heard about that. but hadn't heard about only knives
[17:02] <huangpo> no other details?
[17:02] <tweedledee> still, what do you nead to hijack a plane
[17:02] <x-virge> they don't seem to want to talk about these people that were on the planes
[17:03] <x-virge> tweedledee: right
[17:03] <x-virge> tweedledee: but nonetheless, I would like to know what happened
[17:03] <temas> you don't talk about the dead until you've oked the names, and gotten family permission usually
[17:03] <huangpo> x-virge: Justice dept and intelligence community probably clamping down on news media
[17:03] <x-virge> temas: not talking about the dead
[17:03] <tweedledee> you could do it with your bare hands if needed
[17:03] <tweedledee> only one solution to this really - much better security on internal US flights
[17:03] <x-virge> temas: just what happened on the planes...
[17:04] <huangpo> tweedledee: absolutely
[17:04] <x-virge> temas: I've heard people say that the stewardesses on the PA plane were all stabbed... but not directly from a news source
[17:04] <huangpo> just heard a damning comparison between US airlines and the Israeli El Al airline security
[17:05] <huangpo> El Al has a spotless record since increasing security because of terroism during the 70's
[17:05] %% ronfu has left
[17:05] <tweedledee> yeah
[17:06] <CLM> there are ways to make statement using nonviolent means such as those employed by Gandhi and King...
[17:06] <huangpo> i think the US is going to redefine "security" after this
[17:06] <CLM> there are ways to get people to listen...
[17:06] <CLM> but when you blow shit up... do you think that will cause the offending party to want to listen??
[17:06] <tweedledee> in england there is really tight security on flights, even short ones
[17:06] <tweedledee> x-rays, metal detectors, passports required ec.
[17:06] <CLM> im' tired and i'm gonig home
[17:07] <CLM> i hope all of you have a good day
[17:07] <x-virge> passports required for internal england flights?
[17:07] <huangpo> later CLM
[17:07] <CLM> see ya huangpo... temas... x-virge... everyone else.. take care and bye.
[17:07] <tweedledee> x-virge: yes, i think so. admittedly, they don't scrutinise them too much
[17:07] <temas> later
[17:07] <tweedledee> but metal detectors are used
[17:07] <tweedledee> as are random bag searches
[17:07] <tweedledee> i've had my bags searched before
[17:08] <huangpo> i gotta take a break from this. see ya'll later
[17:08] <temas> later man
[17:08] <x-virge> tweedledee: metal detectors, x-ray, and random bag searches on internal us flights too, man
[17:08] %% huangpo has left
[17:08] <temas> we have methods
[17:08] <x-virge> tweedledee: just having that tech all in place and required doesn't make it secure
[17:08] <temas> what we lack is seriousness
[17:09] <temas> and our allowance of even simple weapons
[17:09] <tweedledee> x-virge: really? I had heard that US internals are very lax on security. You can just present a driving license and get on board
[17:09] <temas> photo id
[17:09] <x-virge> tweedledee: after you put your bag through x-ray and go through metal detector and have the possibility of a random bag search, sure
[17:09] <temas> and the screening for residue on bags
[17:09] <temas> that's randomly done now
[17:10] <x-virge> yeah, they've done that to me several times
[17:10] <x-virge> er, my bag
[17:10] <x-virge> temas: you know, you could update the ChangeLog too ;)
[17:10] <temas> yup
[17:10] <temas> yeah forgot about that ;-)
[17:11] <tweedledee> So how did they get knives on board?
[17:11] <temas> and I'm used to using cvs2cl now
[17:11] <tweedledee> or any weapons in fact?
[17:11] <temas> tweedledee: pocket knives?
[17:11] <tweedledee> the news here is pretty vague on how they did it
[17:11] <x-virge> we have no info
[17:11] <pgmillard> temas: what is FT?
[17:11] <temas> I almost always have my leatherman with me
[17:11] <temas> file transfer
[17:11] <x-virge> they don't talk about it here either, that's what I was complaining about
[17:11] <tweedledee> they'd not be allowed on flights surely?
[17:11] <pgmillard> in gabber?
[17:11] <x-virge> pgmillard: yes
[17:11] <pgmillard> cool.
[17:11] <temas> tweedledee: yeah all the time, not a prob at all
[17:12] <x-virge> tweedledee: they tend to look for bombs and guns and drugs
[17:13] <x-virge> tweedledee: I don't think they ever really considered knives an issue
[17:13] <tweedledee> hmm i suppose so. But you see, that'd set of the metal detectors here. I dunno really, probably at the end of the day not much anyone could do
[17:13] <pgmillard> a buddy of mine got his knive snagged by the Cleveland airport.
[17:13] <tweedledee> If they hadn't been able to hijack a plane, they'd have found another way
[17:13] <pgmillard> it was in his climbing pack which was a carry-on
[17:14] <temas> pgmillard: how big?
[17:15] <pgmillard> it was a spyderco... maybe 2.5" - 3" long.
[17:15] <x-virge> tweedledee: it would set off metal detectors
[17:15] <temas> spyderco's look scary though =)
[17:15] <x-virge> tweedledee: but that doesn't mean you couldn't have a pocket knife in your bag or something like that
[17:15] <x-virge> tweedledee: they'd probably see it in the x-ray and not think much of it
[17:15] <temas> but I have seen people get on with them
[17:16] <tweedledee> i suppose so
[17:16] <tweedledee> damn
[17:16] <tweedledee> still can't quite believe it. heard it off a taxi cab radio
[17:16] * pgmillard graples w/ his SAX -> DOM routine.
[17:17] <tweedledee> anyway, done no work this evening. need to get some sleep anyway
[17:17] <tweedledee> later guys
[17:17] <temas> later
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[17:22] <huangpo> had to ask about some breaking news. CNN reports that Kabul, Afghanistan is under attack
[17:22] <x-virge> yes
[17:22] <x-virge> they have no idea
[17:22] <x-virge> it doesn't look large enough to be an official US attack
[17:22] <x-virge> and it could be a part of the civil war which has been going on
[17:22] <huangpo> American cruise missiles reported according to my local station(?)
[17:22] <x-virge> oh really?
[17:22] <x-virge> well, that's not what they're telling us :)
[17:24] <temas> somehow doubt it is yet
[17:33] <DizzyD> i doubt it's us
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[17:33] <DizzyD> based on what happened today, we'll make a bit more of a splash
[17:34] <x-virge> what license is jabberd under?
[17:34] <DizzyD> josl
[17:34] <temas> JOSL
[17:35] <x-virge> ok
[17:35] <x-virge> there apparently is no LICENSE or COPYRIGHT file in the official tarball
[17:38] <temas> I think it's on every file
[17:39] <x-virge> right
[17:43] * DizzyD ponders
[17:43] <DizzyD> economic implications of this..suggest that business travel will be down
[17:43] <DizzyD> but..
[17:43] <DizzyD> business can still happen over the internet
[17:43] <DizzyD> i wonder if anyone will consider that
[17:43] <temas> possibly
[17:55] <temas> president is supposed to give a speech tonight
[17:55] <temas> he's back in DC
[17:57] * DizzyD weeps inside
[18:05] %% DizzyD has left
[18:11] <matman> I wonder how long constant coverage of this will go on. They just keep going on about it, without any new information.
[18:13] <temas> slowly more is coming out
[18:15] <x-virge> temas: not only did you not update ChangeLog, but you didn't try compiling it ;)
[18:16] %% x-virge has left
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[18:16] <ChatBot> [x-virge]: The Gabber-Dominator has returned to conquer all who oppose him
[18:16] <temas> dude compiles here fine
[18:16] <matman> oh, building 7 actually did fall over eventually?
[18:16] <temas> yeah
[18:16] <x-virge> temas: uh, no
[18:17] <x-virge> temas: pixmaps/Makefile.am references 'glade-filtransfer.xpm' :)
[18:17] <temas> which I put in
[18:17] <x-virge> no, you put in glade-filetransfer.xpm
[18:18] <temas> hrm odd
[18:18] <temas> wonder how mine worked =)
[18:18] <temas> must have editted something by hand
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[18:33] <DizzyD> building 7 was pretty dang big
[18:34] <pgmillard> DizzyD: bigger than the Qwest building in Denver.
[18:35] <x-virge> how many stories is that qwest building?
[18:35] <pgmillard> 40 I think.
[18:35] <x-virge> ah, wow
[18:35] <x-virge> #7 was what... 47?
[18:35] <pgmillard> yeah.
[18:35] <x-virge> geez
[18:36] <x-virge> anyone have a shot of building 7 falling? I didn't see that
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[18:38] * DizzyD shakes his head
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[18:43] <x-virge> http://doc.weblogs.com/stories/storyReader$1023
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[18:51] <matman> I don't know about everyone being allowed to carry concealed weapons :)
[18:51] <x-virge> same :)
[18:51] <x-virge> not saying I agree with all that's said
[18:51] <matman> I'm not saying that you are - just that I don't know about what he said :)
[18:51] <x-virge> yeah :)
[18:51] <x-virge> O
[18:51] <x-virge> er
[18:52] <x-virge> I'm fairly certain I disagree
[18:52] <temas> I live where you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon
[18:52] <temas> I feel safe
[18:53] <matman> maybe people should be allowed to carry weapons if they pass a gun use/safety exam every 5 years, and have their gun storage facilities audited every once in a while (the gun owner should have to pay for that)
[18:53] <matman> the problem with everyone having a gun is not so much crime, but rather accedents.
[18:54] <matman> many people are really stupid with weapons.
[18:56] <temas> the gene pool cleaning itself?
[18:56] <temas> j/k ;-)
[18:57] <matman> hehe :)
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[19:07] <Theo> back.
[19:09] <temas> wb
[19:11] <Theo> thanks.
[19:11] <Theo> today wsas a short day at work.
[19:11] <Theo> it started off dead slow,
[19:11] <Theo> and only got 2 orders for pizzas from 4 to 5:30 pm...
[19:12] <Theo> (i work at a local family owned pizzeria...)
[19:12] <Theo> but after that, all hell broke loose, with like 30 orders the next hour.
[19:12] <Theo> then went back to being dead...
[19:12] <temas> heh
[19:18] <Theo> i heard about something on fighting in afghanistan going on...
[19:18] <temas> I wonder what kind of effect this will have on airline prices
[19:18] <Theo> but no details.
[19:18] <temas> Theo: unrelate
[19:18] <temas> unrelated
[19:18] <temas> due to their civil war or something like that apparently
[19:18] <Theo> ah, ok... at least that we know of, right?
[19:19] <temas> that's what's been said
[19:19] <Theo> and as for airline prices, i am pretty sure they will be going up,
[19:19] <Theo> dur to the 'added' security that will be installed now.
[19:19] <Theo> but you can be sure the skies are going to be a lot safer in a month, when the new security is in place...
[19:20] <temas> less demand to travel though
[19:20] <Theo> and maybe a few less people flying :-\
[19:20] <Theo> yes,
[19:20] <Theo> maybe i'll fly up to boston in a couple of months for my vacation, instead of going greyhound as planned...
[19:21] <temas> well I'm going to play diablo 2
[19:21] <temas> ttyl
[19:21] <Theo> ok, i'm going to take a nap.
[19:21] <Theo> bye.
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[20:38] <ChatBot> [temas]: where's my entry?
[20:39] * temas has changed the subject to: 9/11/01 --a day to be remembered
[20:39] <x-virge> let's not confuse our european friends
[20:39] * x-virge has changed the subject to: 2001-09-11 --a day to be remembered
[20:40] <temas> fine fine =)
[20:41] <x-virge> personally, I like 11 Sept 2001 ;)
[20:41] <x-virge> er
[20:41] <x-virge> the format, not the date...
[20:42] <x-virge> <_vicious_> cp World.bak World
[20:42] <x-virge> <_vicious_> maybe the world should be in CVS, and we should always work on branches, and only merge the good stuff to HEAD
[20:42] <temas> hehe
[20:43] <x-virge> <yakk> oh shit, george broke the america build again!
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[21:18] <temas> hmm, one of the Akamai co-founders was on one of those AA flights
[21:19] %% mikem has left
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[21:30] <Theo> temas:
[21:30] <Theo> what??
[21:30] <Theo> just read what you posted.
[21:30] %% stpeter has joined
[21:30] <ChatBot> [stpeter]: ... new encounters spark a true fruition ...
[21:30] <Theo> really? what's the source?
[21:30] %% amanuel has left
[21:30] <Theo> hi, stpeter.
[21:30] <stpeter> hiya
[21:31] <Theo> how are you doing today?
[21:31] <Theo> anyone here a kuro5hin member? i just posted a small tidbit to the site on the issue of this attack...
[21:32] <Theo> http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/9/11/203233/185
[21:32] %% jtmoore73 has left
[21:33] <Theo> also wanted to say that if anyone is interested in the banking industry and it's use of open source software,
[21:33] <Theo> there is going to be a nice conference in baltimore on november 9th...
[21:33] <Theo> i plan on attending.
[21:36] <Theo> ESR is going to be a keynote speaker,
[21:36] <Theo> and a few other big names will attend.
[21:36] <temas> cool
[21:38] %% pgmillard has joined
[21:38] <ChatBot> [pgmillard]: My client could whoop your client any day
[21:40] <Theo> hi, pgmillard.
[21:41] <pgmillard> temas: I'm so close to having my new lib working...but I'm having issues w/ multiple socket reads for a single fragment. *SIGH*
[21:42] <Theo> anyone know when the next Jabelin meeting takes place?
[21:42] <temas> Theo, next wed
[21:42] <temas> pgmillard: sockets are fun =)
[21:45] <Theo> temas: great, what time? right after the foundation meeting, i assume?
[21:53] <temas> yeah
[21:55] <Theo> geez, the horror of seeing what happened this morning is even worse the second time around, tonight.
[21:56] <Theo> maybe it's that the reality of it has finally had time to set in...
[21:56] <Theo> don't know if anyone wants this:
[21:57] %% davidml has joined
[21:57] <Theo> but it's reported on CNN that FBI investigators are trying to aquire search warrants for locations in south florida...
[21:57] <Theo> in relation to this investigation...
[21:57] <davidml> oi
[21:57] <Theo> 78 police officers missing, unaccounted for in NYC after the attacks.
[21:57] %% davidml has left
[21:57] <Theo> hi, davidml...
[21:58] <pgmillard> WOOOHOOOO
[21:58] <temas> got it working?
[21:58] <pgmillard> yeah..gotta make sure it's reliable.
[21:58] <pgmillard> it read my roster...which takes 17 socket reads w/ a 4K buffer.
[21:58] * pgmillard snickers
[21:59] <Theo> pgmillard: what are you working on?
[22:02] <pgmillard> writing a new library to build the nextgen winjab on top of.
[22:02] <pgmillard> CRAP.
[22:02] * pgmillard mumbles
[22:02] <Theo> oh, btw, excellent job with winjab so far.
[22:02] <pgmillard> thanx.
[22:03] <Theo> most of my users of theoretic.com use winjab...
[22:04] * stpeter absorbs news from the web
[22:04] <Theo> geez, this whole attack is starting to hit a little too close to home...
[22:05] <Theo> now investigations are going to be conducted in south and central, possibly north florida...
[22:06] %% DizzyD has joined
[22:06] <stpeter> hey diz
[22:06] <DizzyD> yo
[22:07] * stpeter is feeling ill
[22:08] <DizzyD> yeah...aren't we all
[22:08] <temas> stpeter: from the events or sick?
[22:08] * Theo feels stpeter's pain...
[22:08] <stpeter> from the events
[22:08] * temas nods
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[22:12] * DizzyD sighs
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[22:42] * stpeter chats with opie
[22:58] %% kruton has joined
[22:59] <kruton> Man, I'm having all sorts of problems with this jabber 1.4CVS even though it works on another machine.
[22:59] <kruton> Looks like it's segfaulting in Pth's pmalloc for some reason
[23:00] * stpeter isn't really thinking about Jabber right now
[23:03] <kruton> bt
[23:03] <kruton> whoops, why let someone break you
[23:04] <stpeter> i'm sorry?
[23:04] <kruton> I guess their point was to bring the USA to a halt
[23:04] <stpeter> oh, of course
[23:04] <stpeter> all i said was i'm not really thinking about Jabber right now
[23:04] <stpeter> that doesn't mean i'm "broken"
[23:05] <kruton> Well, that's not what I meant.
[23:05] <stpeter> ok
[23:06] <kruton> I apologize.
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[23:06] <stpeter> kruton: no no, that's okay, i'm just a little edgy this evening
[23:07] <stpeter> well, i'm going to log off, it's not doing anyone any good for me to be here... ;)
[23:07] <kruton> okay..
[23:07] <stpeter> peace
[23:07] %% stpeter has left
[23:07] <kruton> I must have an unupdated version of gcc
[23:07] %% jer has joined
[23:07] <ChatBot> [jer]: Never fear, Jer is near! (unless he's playing xkobo)
[23:07] <kruton> gcc version 2.96 20000731 (Red Hat Linux 7.1 2.96-85)
[23:08] <kruton> no, maybe not... hmm
[23:10] * jer sighs, unable to come up with appropriate words
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[23:17] <emphasyst> Does anybody know of any pointers to mod_jabber information besides whats in CVS?
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[23:21] <justinvp> this sux
[23:22] <DizzyD> yup
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[23:34] <error27> hm. that's funny... the name error27 is taken on charente.de
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