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Topic:   The 3 arrows strategy Format for Better Printing
La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 11, 2000 09:13   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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New game. My settler #1 has just created Paris. What does my tiny Paris city size one provide? Most likely 2 foods, 1 or 2 shields and 1 or 2 trade arrows.
But I have got 3 possibilities of getting 3 trade arrows at once:
#1: River (city square = 2 arrrows, river square = 1 arrow)
#2: Ocean (city square = 1 arrow, ocean square = 2 arrows)
#3: Trade Special (look at Ming, he's already sniffing for more!)
Under despotism, the best available settings are 60%science, 40% taxes. Hence:
(Please, don't reply yet. Sorry, but it seems that I can send short messages only)
La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 11, 2000 09:26   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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Hence:
1 trade arrow gives 1 beaker,
2 trade arrows also give 1 beaker (plus 1 gold coin),
3 trade arrows give 2 beakers.
The 3 arrows strategy doubles my science output at the beginning of the game (4 beakers per turn instead of 2).
3 techs (Alp, CoL, CB) are needed before researching Monarchy (and the AI seems to be willing to send one more, outside the path, in almost any game). This means 5 techs needed before switching to Monarchy.
Let us see how it works (playing deity, 7 civs, raging hordes, small map e.g.). Beakers required are usually as follows:
(sorry, don't reply yet, I go on explaining)
La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 11, 2000 09:39   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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Beakers required:
Tech #1: 10 beakers, tech #2: 18 beakers, tech #3: 24 beakers, tech #4: 36 beakers, tech #5: 45 beakers.
Assume my two settlers are standing on a river square and the surroundings look hospitable. Settler #1 settles down (hello Paris!); settler #2 walks 2 to 5 squares along the river (from ICS to Perf): hello Orléans!
In that case I get tech #1 after 4 or 5 turns, but that case is not frequent.
Generally, both settlers are bound to wander looking for river, ocean or trade specials.
Advice #1: Do they enter the goodie hut they probably discover meanwhile? Rigid 3 arrows strategy says no (because there is a risk of getting a scroll of ancient wisdom outside the path leading to Monarchy ASAP)
La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 11, 2000 09:49   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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But the first test I have made shows that it might be a good idea, nevertheless (main results and discussion below).
Advice #2: Don't let Orléans be created more than 5 squares away from Paris (corruption is hard at work against your third arrow).
Advice #3: Don't forget to think about what's going to happen to yourtiny cities Paris and Orléans when they grow to size 2 (discussion below).
Intermediate conclusion :
Using "3 arrows" strategy, the results obtained strongly depend upon the free techs offered at the start (and what happens if my settler chooses to enter the first goodie hut he finds on his way).That is why I have studied what happened to Nazca.


La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 11, 2000 10:35   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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What happened to Nazca, gracious queen of the Aztecs (100 starts, small random map , deity, raging hordes, 7 civs)? Main results of the test:
Free techs (Alphabet, Cer Bur and Code of Laws are named "nice techs").
0 nice = 39 starts
1 nice = 30 starts
2 nice = 23 starts
3 nice = 7 starts
4 nice = 1 start (this means Monarchy as a free tech; therefore no 3 arrows strategy needed).
Main results of the test. First goodie hut:
58 units (31 archers, 19 horsemen, 8 chariots),
20 gold (1= 100g, 14= 50g,5= 25g),
3 nice scrolls (1A, 1CB, 1CoL)
18 "stupid" scrolls ( 6WC, 4H, 3BW, 2Pot, 1Mas,1Mys,1Wri)
99 = total of huts entered (the one missing was a very sad "Aztec civ destroyed by barbs" in 1500BC).

Consequences:
No one would enjoy wandering until 1500BC, if not for testing the game. Hence, that one can be left aside.
18 "stupid" scrolls are a fairly good reason to avoid entering any goodie hut.
But this leaves us with 81 happy results (58 NONE units ready to go scouting, 20 "Gold" and 3 nice scrolls of ancient wisdom, able to shorten our long journey to Monarchy).
That is why my advice is: enter the hut, if you find one before settling.

Best results:
With 3 nice free techs (about 7% chance with the Aztecs, according to my test) and 2 settlers on the river, you may switch to Monarchy around 3500BC using "3 arrows".
With 2 nice techs (23% chance or so), you may choose "3 arrows" and become King of the Aztecs around 3200BC.
With 0 or 1 nice free tech, you SHOULD take care of what is going to happen to Paris and Orléans, when they gow to size 2. If you don't, you will soon notice that in most cases growing to size 2 gives NO beakers at all. But, if both cities are close to the ocean or a trade special, then you can get 2 new arrows for each city, often meaning 2 beakers added to your research capacity.
I leave the rest of the calculations to you (if you feel like it, but my advice would be: don't calculate, just try it, it's more fun , and if you happen to fall in love with Nazca, gracious queen of the Aztecs, just let me know!).
Good "3 arrows", good civing.

Rereading this post, I notice that some people might think Paris used to be the great capital of the glorious Aztec civilization. I apologize.

cavebear


b.02-15-99
posted December 14, 2000 16:18   Click Here to See the Profile for cavebearClick Here to Email cavebear Visit cavebear's Homepage!
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No thoughtful post should be without a reply...

Emphasizing trade arrows at the start is a reasonable strategy, and I have tried many games with food and trade as my primary objectives. It can start you out slowly, but trade resources will get you to Monarchy faster than any way I know (and some ICS players can argue about that).

It is very hard to ignore the appearance of being behind in the demo chart when using a trade strategy. But some patience and preparation can give you a big jump when you hit Monarchy. Keep practicing that strategy, and you will do well. Doubtless, experience will cause you to modify it in the face of unusual resources (choosing a whale over fishes, for example), but the idea is quite valid.

Dissident Aggressor


b.02-15-99
posted December 14, 2000 20:14   Click Here to See the Profile for Dissident AggressorClick Here to Email Dissident Aggressor Visit Dissident Aggressor's Homepage!
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I like it. I'm not that great a micromanager. But I usually try to balance the food and trade. But production is important to get those settlers out to build more cities to get more trade. would this increased trade be better than increased food which would increase the city pop faster allowing more trade? I'd imagine so. Lately for some reason it has been taking too long for me to get to monarchy. so I may try this.

doh! I'm still haven't trouble with my sig
------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to hell; and spirituality is for people like me who have been there.

You're only young once, but you can stay immature indefinately.

"These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Dissident, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust."
"Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!"
Li
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 14, 2000).]

Martin Schmidt


b.02-15-99
posted December 15, 2000 08:59   Click Here to See the Profile for Martin SchmidtClick Here to Email Martin Schmidt Visit Martin Schmidt's Homepage!
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That's my startegie too , to get monarchy as
early as possible . Therefore i avoid going
to huts (because im afraid to get useless techs)
when i have none or just a few techs available
at the beginning .
I prefer to have wals at the beginning , although
this wont be possible in every game .
I think i noticed that the opportunity to get
a tech is higher on grassland than on hills
or mountains (have you made this experience either ?) therefore at the very beginning i
will take the hut only if it is not on plain
land .

Mercantile


b.02-15-99
posted December 15, 2000 14:30   Click Here to See the Profile for MercantileClick Here to Email Mercantile Visit Mercantile's Homepage!
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i tip every hut i can find ASAP especially before i build my capital, unless i am one turn before Phil or some other tech and i am racing to a wonder then i might delay a turn
rah


b.02-15-99
posted December 15, 2000 17:07   Click Here to See the Profile for rahClick Here to Email rah Visit rah's Homepage!
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dito merc.

The only two exception are if i find a hut (after capital founded) and i plan on building a city within reach, then i'll delay till after the city is founded to eliminate barbs from appearing. And the other is the same as merc's, if i'm close to developing a specific tech for a wonder and don't want to change how many beakers i'll nead.

RAH

SilverDragon


b.02-15-99
posted December 15, 2000 21:22   Click Here to See the Profile for SilverDragonClick Here to Email SilverDragon Visit SilverDragon's Homepage!
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quote:

Originally posted by rah on 12-15-2000 05:07 PM
dito merc.

The only two exception are if i find a hut (after capital founded) and i plan on building a city within reach, then i'll delay till after the city is founded to eliminate barbs from appearing. And the other is the same as merc's, if i'm close to developing a specific tech for a wonder and don't want to change how many beakers i'll nead.

RAH

I agree with all of the above. It's nice to know the number of beakers. I wish there was a good way of testing it for later techs.

------------------
Go Redskins!

Email me at
SilverDragon141@aol.com

La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 18, 2000 09:58   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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cavebear
We are #1 in science and I salute you, noble leader!
I hope you will soon be granted a gold medal for being the first one to reply to my post .
I have been busy reading all posts I could find on this forum or the archives since I discovered Apolyton a few weeks ago. I read many posts emphasizing Monarchy ASAP. I remember only one explaining how to get there, and that is Xin Yu's Size Five Strategy.
IMO "Size Five" is thoughtful and powerful, but I would say it starts almost where "3 arrows" ends (since you need building 1 city size 3 + 2 cities size 1 + 2 settlers).

I describe below the revised version of "3 arrows", after having noticed that I probably wrote something wrong about the consequences of a city growing to size 2. Here it is:
1) New game. Don't move. Check first how many "nice" free techs you have ("nice" being A, CB, CoL and Mon).
2) If you have 4 (about 1% chance with the Aztecs, according to my test): cheers! you have Monarchy from the start. No "3 arrows" needed.
3) If you have 3 (about 7% chance with the Aztecs, according to my test): go scouting, find Trade Special or River or Ocean and apply "3 arrows". This gives you Monarchy 3 turns after creating Paris if you haven't tipped any hut meanwhile.
4) If you have 2 (about 23% chance with the Aztecs, according to my test): same recipe. Should give you Monarchy 8 turns after creating Paris, if you don't tip any hut.
5) If you have 1 (about 30% chance with the Axtecs): go scouting, find River or Trade Special providing 2 foods (such as Whale or Fish) and use "3 arrows".
6) If you have 0 (about 39%¨chance with the Aztecs): same recipe.
7) If you are unsatisfied after 4 or 5 turns wandering, settle and do your best. "3 arrows" is not designed to teach you to be a nomad.

As you can see, 5) and 6) are slightly modified, compared to my previous post. This is due to the fact that I did some more research about what happens when a city grows to size 2. It appears that one may get 2 more trade arrows and 1 more beaker in Paris (capital), but one never gets that in Orléans (corruption eats one; what I thought to be an exception seems to be the rule).
The best one can hope for is 5 beakers (instead of 6) and Monarchy is still faraway.
Therefore, the best means to really increase one's science output is to build city #3 ASAP (and of course apply "3 arrows" to that city too). This means building 1 settler swiftly, which can probably be obtained by specialization (Paris builds 1 settler and Orléans builds 2 warriors

DA
Silver medal to you! IMO your sig looks fine .

MS
Avoiding to tip huts conforms to rigid "3 arrows" strat, but I found it interesting to run a test, since it is such a pleasure getting gold or NONE units before you really start moving.

Merc, Rah and SD
SG2 displayed the results of a very interesting and comprehensive test about starting techs a few weeks ago.
If you love tipping huts, would you agree to give me a hand (testing 100 starts with your preferred civ, tipping 100 huts and displaying the results, as I did with the Aztecs)?

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted December 26, 2000 08:05   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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"When your first city is in a low trade environment, with no rivers, fish or whales, it is important to make sure you have at least 3 trade, as this doubles your early science (assuming a 60% initial science rate)".
This was written by John Barbarossa on May 24th, 1999 in a thread named "overlapping cities, prove it", that anyone can find in the archive.
I wish to mention it, since it is almost exactly the idea I had in mind when starting to develop the "3 arrows" strategy. John, I salute you.

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted February 05, 2001 11:46   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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bump
East Street Trader


b.02-15-99
posted February 05, 2001 13:52   Click Here to See the Profile for East Street TraderClick Here to Email East Street Trader Visit East Street Trader's Homepage!
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There is a DaveV thread available on page 3 of the GL (courtesy of Carolus Rex) which has a discussion on some research he tried by way of prefering shields to arrows early on. His results supported such a preference.

For several months now I have lazily thought that, one day soon I would test out the comparison between using both deity settlers promptly to found and holding one back so as (initially) to exploit the sole city capital doesn't disband and is easy to defend against barbs features. Which is another early decision in which the shields/arrows question may arise.

Trouble is, whenever I press the "new game" button the urge to play always outweighs my urge to test.

Guess Leonardo I will never be.

Not too lazy to read your reactions to DaveV's work though. If you feel inclined to post any.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited February 05, 2001).]

La Fayette


b.02-15-99
posted February 08, 2001 07:51   Click Here to See the Profile for La FayetteClick Here to Email La Fayette Visit La Fayette's Homepage!
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EST
Yes, sir, I feel like it, since this topic is really on my mind:
1) It is a pity that YOU (and many other experienced players) don't feel like testing. I can understand you though (after the 1125+ attacks that ST and I ordered recently ).
2) Thank you for giving me a link to Dave's test. It is very interesting.
3) In fact it is so interesting that I feel like starting a new topic: "shields vs arrows".

------------------
aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

Chaos Warrior


b.02-15-99
posted February 10, 2001 17:14   Click Here to See the Profile for Chaos WarriorClick Here to Email Chaos Warrior Visit Chaos Warrior's Homepage!
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Yeah, speeding up technological research in the early game is important and good, but yopu should never forget the growth of your capital, as well as the produciton... I often found myself with only one settler at the start and a silk square in his range... sometimes played with Silk right from the start on, thus accepting a lower food production... at other times, I ****ed on it and played the standard development before using the silk square later... I think the decision you make here can be very important for the later game.
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