- Temper's Ball
- Guilds (OOC)

Author What of honour?
Leonitis
Count-Palatine

Posted: 2002-08-02 06:06     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I recently created a guild for the first time.

I named it 'The Legion of Steel' or 'Steel' for short, based on the name of the group where my idea first originated. The guild would be comprised of Arthurian style knights. To augment their stregnth, some knights learned magic, while others stealth.

After a conversation with a friend who was deciding if he would join, he asked me about honour in the guild. What sort of ethics do my scum have to allow arthurian style knights to fight with them and not against them? What restrictions on roleplay do your members have? Is their a special etiquette they have to follow in war or roleplay? He bombarded me with these questions that I couldn't truly answer.

Anyway, it got me thinking of what honour was, not only in game or roleplay, but in all aspects of life. It occured to me that what thought was dishonourable, others may find acceptable. So I put the question to you,


What is honour? (examples encouraged)




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


Ostro
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-02 06:53     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
As one who takes his word very seriously, honor (without a "U" because I'm not Brittish [anymore{ooh, I got to use more than just one set of brackets in a sentance}]) has to do with trust and decency. In this game, it's given that the point is to kill of your enemies. But to be honorable, you give yourself a reason (ie: jihad, self-defense etc.) to kill of tour opponent. Now killing them is one thing. Downright sluaghtering them is another. Killing off the weakest piece of crap kingdom available isn't very honorable either.

Now when you give someone your word and go back on it, that's dishonorable. Again, I give an example for in this game. If you and an opposing guild set of a temporary armistace and you send your troops into their unexpecting lands shortly afterward. That's not exactly going to gain you much respect from your enemies, nor your allies.

Honor is a good quality to have. Yep.

~~O~S~T~R~O~~
I'm Mr. Nice Guy! GoPF Forever!
~Silly Birdie Tiger Thigy~


[ This Message was edited by: Ostro on 2002-08-02 06:53 ]


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-02 11:04     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Actually, my guild (which is currently only myself) has been declared on.

I have been asked if I wanted the tiny guild (5 or less)scummed to death by some people (no names of course)who thought that the whole guild was attacking me. I declined all offers because my opponent has so far been one kingdom and has remained honourable (still with a 'U' in Canada, hehe). Should he decide to attack on mass with his guild, would it still be dishonourable to use whatever means I have at my disposal.

In other words, is honour only restricted to those who in turn have honour?



~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~




[ This Message was edited by: Leonitis on 2002-08-02 11:05 ]


Entropos
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-02 11:43     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
All's fair in love and war. In war, your only duty is to your people, and that means protecting them and waging war in whatever fashion ensures their long term safety and or victory.

IE: Fuck it. Drop the bomb on 'em.


Voice Circe
Voice

Posted: 2002-08-02 11:53     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
You will get a much better response if you put this in a game forum, here, only ugly things will happen to you. Quick, run and hide, I will cover your retreat.

~boots to Guilds OOC~


Madylene Auvryndar
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-02 12:43     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Honor is in you... is what you make of it.

You have do decide for yourself if you wanna follow your own ethics all the time (which I suggest), or if you are willing to temporarily drop them because your enemy is not following your same "rules".

The problem with the latter attitude is that it ends up loosening your "honor" always more... to the point when you wake up one day to find out your honor is no more, because you've come to terms with it.

Just give yourself a definition of honor, and stick to it, whatever it is, loose or not. Whatever happens. This way, you'll always be at peace with yourself, which is what counts the most.


Lady Madylene Auvryndar
~Ranger of Shadow Bane~
...Fear the wrath of a Dark Soul...


Stee Jans
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-02 23:26     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Honor is a peculiar subject, people can believe that they have it and have it be completely different from another person's self-described honor. The thing is, often both interpretations are correct. This, of course, leads to rather interesting clashes in practice and theory, culminating in this cesspit that is called Guilds OOC. :P

Entropos is right, in my view, to a certain extent. You have to know when the fair and noble extent of honor ends and your men's lives begin. If you keep honor until it repeatedly endangers your guild, you're really not accomplishing much. A GM may mean his guild to be honorable by some definition, but if you don't protect those loyal to you, problems will arise (It has happened to me, in other words).

In my experience, honor is taking the most challenging, fair and interesting battle when the time comes to choose, without delaying till you're hit yourself. Often you can manage this, sometimes you can't. When you are forced to hit less than honorably, it is wise to consider your boards stance, because if you don't talk with a silver-tongue and let people see your reasons, then you just might have the mob after you.

In essence, it is being both fair and vigilant ingame and respectful and rational out of game. If you maintain both, you can usually preserve whatever definition of honor you establish for yourself.

*waves to Leo* :P

Oh yeah, outside help is bad unless it's only scouting, and only do that if you are desperate. The only contingency for other action is if you are being hit unfairly yourself, then use prudent judgement to determine how much force you should try to recruit to even the battle without starting a chain reaction.


ENeMA GM
The Warhawk is Sharpening his Talons.


Devotia
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-03 03:13     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
What sort of ethics do my scum have to allow arthurian style knights to fight with them and not against them?

Scum massacre women and children. They don't need ethics. :p I think that ones backward, so i'll treat it as such. The knights might not be thrilled with the prospect of fighting side by side common theives, but, then again, Arthur always had tabs on the approximate size of his enemy. You think that was just good guesswork? I'd say don't have scummer kingdoms, and perhaps use another guild as scouts (enemy of my enemy...) Keep only drow for defense, and if it's an RP difficulty, the knights don't need to know where the theives are.

What restrictions on roleplay do your members have?

None. But again, that's up to you.

Is their a special etiquette they have to follow in war or roleplay?

This is a long one. :> I'm guessing since you GM, you know the basics (don't declare on a guild that has no chance, no godmoding in RP, don't gb, etc). As far as guild specialized etiquette, that's up to you as GM. You could make a guild that (since I haven't read your charter) only attacked Foret because of some ancient grudge. As Arthurians, (who's honour was questionable at best, to be honest) I'd say always hit with a disadvantage, never use scum or sorckills (and then only use to break the otherwise unbreakable kingdoms), and in RP..well, I'm not going to tell you how to RP your character. I trust you know how to better than say, well, you know.

If you're attacked by a 5 on 1, I'd say call in outside help. That's just wrong on their part. If anything, you should have been included with another samefaith guild to be a target. If someone gangbangs you, I believe you have two choices. One is to call in help to even it out (will possibly win you the war, and make friends with one guild) or try and deal with it. If you fail, you probably will be regarded as a pushover. But if you hold your ground (tough with a a 5on1 though) you'll gain respect from the enemy, which is more valuable than any victory. However, if you do that, make sure your entire guild is behind you. I'm sure most people wouldn't like their kingdom massacred over pride.




Well, at least I shall die as I have lived. Completely surrounded by morons.
I'm a bastard, it's true.
Sleeping with the ENeMABDSM's tubby black manservant. WHAT!


Ugly Humanslasher
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-03 15:03     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Gee, I sparked a whole debate just by applying one simple sentence....

"Honour has a very broad definition"

As far as what true honour is, you might as well give up cause you're never gonna figure it out.. it's just one of those questions with no answer.. kinda like what is "Normal"

Guess what I'm saying here is that there is no right or wrong cause everything is a matter of preception.. Which I'm starting to think Leo has caught the idea of by now.

It's just a matter of him figuring out what the Legions definition of honour is and applying it.

Bows,
*looks at Stee*
Pretty insightful eh?


Why is American beer served cold? So you can tell it from urine. - David Moulton

AGM of Legion of Steel,
Outstanding or stand out member of Ronin,
Reviver of Tang


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-03 23:55     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Wow. I didn't expect this kind of response. I've already made my decisions on honour based on your input and my own musings. Basically, it boils down to ettiquette in RP (not OOC) and purity in War. If we fight as dirty as we get, then what's the point in winning? We fight alone, no outside help unless the enemy declares on Steel and another guild. We fight fair and we hit hard. As for Scum, I'll let my AGm of Scum decide how his men should behave, as long as it doesn't tarnish the name of Steel. As long as my men can back up their posts and actions in a way that makes sense to me it's okay.

nuff said. :-)




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


Reylan Talonspyre
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-04 05:02     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Honor is a catch phrase of the losers.

The only difference between winners and losers is the score.

Not honor.

As it was told to me by the lovely SunBlade.

The purpose of playing Guilds is to win.

End of story.

Unless you are ENeMA, then it is to humilate the other guilds, including your own faith via wierd schemes and plans


Foundation
Forward the Foundation!


Yarrick
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-04 07:21     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Quote:
Honor is a catch phrase of the losers.

The only difference between winners and losers is the score.

Not honor.

As it was told to me by the lovely SunBlade.

The purpose of playing Guilds is to win.



Not that I want to stand against SunBlade who is very wise, etc... but it's probably this kind of reasonment that has led in the past (and will most likely do in the future) to bad controversies...

Where is written that the purpose of playing Guilds is to win? To me winning is just a pleasant "secondary bonus"...

Am I a loser becase I think this way? *shrugs* I guess you can call me that, since I never won anything in my life Canon or Monarchy-wise... but still I think that what matters the most is having fun.

oh and btw... in Leonitis' posts I failed to notice a request of advice about winning or losing...

and it's, to me, not true that the only differece between winners or losers is in the score. It is partly, of course... but it's just not what matters the most. At least to me. Period.

Have a good sunday everybody! =)


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-04 09:28     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Reylan if your eyes are always on the destination and not on the journey, you're bound to trip and fall.

But, being the honourable knight that I am, I'll stop and pick you up instead of walking on you. :-P




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


Lady Maven
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-04 18:11     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Quote:
Honor is a catch phrase of the losers.



Well said, well said. It is all very good and well to say we are to honorable to attack back when some 5 member guild decides to hit you, because you are a 20 member guild, and they think you don't DARE hit back, easy enough in theory, it is another thing to watch your men used as landfarms, that is not so easy. Some will do whatever it takes to win and be on top. And I think that is fucking AWESOME. I think they should be honest and admit it, but that is an argument for another day.


You can't run with the big dogs if you pee like a puppy.
Co-GM BDSM ... help, I'm being held against my will


Sunblade
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-04 18:20     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I said that?



SunBlade
The E-Team - ENeMA GM
That's why it's called English, Brighty Darling.


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-05 08:56     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I think that should be an arguement for today (that's what this thread is about).

First off, Honour is not a catch phrase of the losers. Honour is the standard we set for ourselves based on our own ethics. For some it appears, that standard is fairly insubstantial.

Second, if a 5 member guild hits my 20 member guild, they'll get a kick in the teeth for a few days regardless. That's known as a wake-up call. My members will get their land back and then some. That's not dishonor, that's defending yourself. After a few days, we make peace.

Lastly, doing whatever it takes to win is fine if that's your style. I think it's pointless myself. What do you win? Do I get a big fat cheque in the mail? I'm goin' to disneyland for it? NO. So enjoy the journey. Crushing a guild doesn't mean anything TO ME, if I knew the outcome from the beginning.
I play for the challenge. I LOVE TO WIN!

but not at the cost of my honour. In any forum.




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


Radic
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-05 09:18     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
That is a good standard to play by Leonitis. The only problem is that you can not dictate the wars all of the time. If everyone fought the good tough fight it would work. But what happens when you get smacked by another guild higher up? At the end of the age people look at the end of age rankings to see how everyone did. Two ages down the road they will see a guild who was almost last and think nothing of it.

When I was a GM I tried to follow the honorable path but it was tough one. I had to look beyond my own vision and take into account those of my members as well. Luckily I was blessed with a bunch of warriors who were willing to charge into a hail of bullets for glory and honor. Usually some of us would die but more of them. In the end you have to retain those members. If you end up being a 3 member honorable guild you won't have much of a factor on the game at this time.

Wish I could discuss this topic more for it is a good and often hotly debated in war threads one. Off to the dreaded work.


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-05 21:04     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Fortunately for me, my group doesn't seem to care about our ranking at the end of the age, only the havoc they reak in TB and the fun they have fighting fair wars. Unfair wars are a pain, but I know I can't do anything about that. I refuse to fight dirty cause everyone else is. My group knows that and supports it.

Besides, they'll tear into the heathen cowards in TB anyway. :-)




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


SoulDemon
Admin

Posted: 2002-08-06 10:00     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Honor is a characteristic used by those who are always seeking a reason to justify actions they take.

It is as over-rated as the insane notion that all wars must be fair.





Pale night whisper - break.
Bright hopeful dreams - destroy.
Withered flesh remains - consume.


Leonitis
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-07 02:09     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Actually, honor is a characteristic of showing respect.

I agree wars are not fair, but games should be, and evernight is just that. A game.




~ Sexy GM of Steel
~ Keeper of the Sacred Free Corps Flag ~
~ (Until Stee raises it again) ~


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