- Temper's Ball
- Guilds (OOC)


Thread Closed by Voice Fionn.
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Author Character Defence
Sunblade
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 12:39     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I won't talk about our reasons for attacking, or whatever - that's up to you guys to complain about or just to move past and war on us like OB are.

I will, however, comment on the accusations of OOC spying and such. I began playing Monarchy in February of 1999, and have never before been accused of anything like that. Even in the days of the TRC flamewars, when I was the target of the ire of entire guilds, I was never accused of something like that.

What makes OOC spying:
1) Joining a guild and giving away its memberlist to heathens.
2) Putting someone in a guild with the express purpose of getting their memberlist.
3) Putting someone in a guild to learn their plans.
4) Impersonating another person in order to gain access to a faith chat to gain information.

I did none of these things.

I was sent information by an Isonian, regarding an agreement by several Isonian guilds to scumkill guilds of Foret and Darden whether or not they were at war. My guild, ENeMA, was mentioned as one of the first to be targeted.

Now, let's compare that to OOC spying.

Did I put someone into an opposing guild or faith to try and get kingdom numbers?

No.

Did I myself impersonate another person, or join another guild to get information?

No.

Did I ask for any information, lists of kingdom numbers, or attempt to get any sort of advantage from any friendship with an Isonian?

No.

What I did do was react to proof of heathen plans to attack my guild en masse, through the means of scumkill.

Now, consider that for a moment. Consider whether, if you were in charge of a small guild and got wind of (for example) ISA's plans to hit you and you alone. Would you react to that by telling the person to take his disgusting OOC spying habits elsewhere, tell your members to carry on building, and ignore it?

Or would you spread this news amongst your allies or other people involved, and attempt to hit ISA before ISA hit you?

If anyone claims to do the first option, they're either liars or plain bad GMs.

I recieved the information, and immediately doubted it. Katalyna, suggesting a plan like this? I wasn't about to believe that. I was forced to believe it when I was shown screenshots of the thread, as well as both a HTML and plain text copy of it.

I'm still shocked that Kat would even think of involving KBR in a scam like this, let alone coming up with the idea and suggesting it to her entire faith. I'm very sorry that the posting of the proof led to Thyarr leaving KBR, but to be honest if a GM commits his or her guild to an idea like this - then they need the wakeup call of their members objecting.

As for those people (LD, etc) who suggested that we will be hacking into websites to get information next - don't be ridiculous. Again, if you were given information that your guild was about to be attacked by a heathen GM, and shown proof, then your first act would either be contacting the other guild to get a truce (which, given the number of Isonian guilds involved, was impractical), or to arrange for the downfall of those guilds before they could launch an attack.

I find it disgusting that certain people are trying to turn the tables and accuse ENeMA (and myself in particular) of being the "bad guys" when all we did was to show the game what certain guilds in the Isonian faith were planning.

Scumkilling other guilds while they are at war is a disgusting tactic, especially if those guilds they are fighting are not even of your own faith. You all came up with, and committed yourselves to, a plan which would undermine the community as well as game integrity - and now you attempt to take the moral high ground when your insidious little plan is revealed.

I did not OOC spy, nor will I ever OOC spy. I acted on information and proof given to me by an Isonian whose morals clashed with those of his/her faith, and I have little to no doubt that anyone else in my situation would have acted differently.

If you want to say that we should have reacted differently in terms of war, then fine - do so. But enough of the accusations of personal wrongdoing, because considering the source of most of those accusations, it's utterly disgusting. You can go on with mirroring the last thread now - as before, most of ENeMA won't respond. We've given our reasons, I've given my defence against personal slander, that's all from us.

War on.

EDIT:
As several people (two from BKoS, two from SoTEP) can testify, I was up until 5am this morning talking to those people affected by this war and explaining the situation to them. I have no desire to see people leave the game over this, only to bring to light the increasingly petty attitudes of certain GMs and guilds. I would urge anyone considering leaving the game to ICQ me first.

ÜSunBladeÜ
Kasha's very own ENeMA (GM)
The E-Team

[ This Message was edited by: Sunblade on 2002-08-19 12:42 ]


Blaze Draconis
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 13:22     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Quote:
Say you've got a few faithwide scummers who are sitting around, wasting turns, nothing really to do. Database is mostly up to date, and there's a few Darden or Foret guilds starting to head up to the top.

One look shows you that the top guy or gal in a Darden guild, and another in a Foret guild are relatively defenseless against scum. Not only that, they're not in a war currently, making that even more fun.



See, I kinda have a problem with this little statement since DoW is basically the only top guild at that time not in war. Granted, nothing came about except lots of scouts on or top kingdoms and King, with some members losing cash, but other than that, not much damage.

I'm not jumping into this war yet...I'm giving Isonia a chance. If you want to screw me over and go through with the plan, then DoW will enter the war.

I hate the scumkilling option with a passion. My guild does not do that unless its the last thing we can do IN A WAR. Very rarily has that happened, all my scummers and agms can testify to that. DoW hasnt had a war in a little while, members are getting restless.....It wuoldnt have taken much to get them going and me ordering foret or Isonia to be scum killed. I have more honor than that to fall into those tactics. Those are the cowards way.

My guild has dropped some since last night and I dont like it. I have nothing to prove and am making no accusation whatsoever. Due to the evidence against Isonia, DoW has every right to hit and be involved.

But I'm giving a chance to ignore what was said.

But...if I catch a Foret guild doing something to DoW to initiate a war between us and Isonia....it will not be Isonia that will feel DoW's wrath. The foret guild that does something will be made unguilded by DoW all age, even if its larger.

My hands are open in peace...do not make me clench them in war.



Canon's Preacher
Co-founder and GM of the Dogs of War
Blade of PoR
Co-Founder and advisor of WOLF


Zann
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-19 13:23     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
As if any of you care or not about what i say. I feel that if an informent sent something to someone in another faith then it is that. theres no proof of a spy being put there to do just that.
Now as wee all know we all have dark ops; always have there and always will be.

Infoe thats is given to someone and i dont care who it is if they recive it then they will read it all of us would . Now what we would do with such infoe is another thing.

I do not suport what is going on sorry Khal this should have been for dardens to decuss.
i do understand what you are doing as for protecting what you think is right.

As for the informent no mater what he should be exposed. None of us want this to happen to us as i said before we all have our own black ops. Foret had it as we all know; we all had talks of such before.

Tara i dont like this and i will not suport this but the spy or what ever he will be called needs to be found.

I remember not long ago when someone sent out all of fervents numbers to some guilds and that was looked on in a bad way as this should be. no this isnt Guild ooc spying this is a informent who needs to be found out.



Dauthi
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 13:42     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Sunblad who sent you the information?


Want to play the game? - - - Willing to play Isonia in two games? Contact me I will pay for people to play under the god of Isonia.(Yes, that means you can join any guild of Isonia) GM of DWT(guilds) - GM of LSD(lgs) - LMS


Sabby
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 13:55     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Dauthi, I think Sunny explained it before or perhaps it was Khalistov: We chose not to reveal his/her identity.

And to anticipate any question about the validity of the source. I'll personally vouch for anything either Sunny or Khal say. For those of you who know me, that should be more than sufficient.


Don't try this at home
ENeMA

Miam-E Vice


Lasher
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 14:43     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
-laughs-

Some of you people really do make me laugh, I must say. SunBlade, an OOC Spy? ROFL.. Sunny is one the most honorable, straight forward players in this game, if not the most.

Calling Sunny and OOC Spy is like calling me a priest. It's just an impossibility.



Footnote: Is Jewish




-Lash
Vroo binev en acem yub


Tara
Nobleman

Posted: 2002-08-19 15:06     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I don't fuckin care if YOU got yer own goddamn login on those boards or not Sunblade.

I don't care how long you've been playing since Monarchy either, that has shitte to do with THIS.

You not "revealing your source" shows me only one goddamn thing .. you WANT to use that fuckin traitor as spy against us any chance you can. When I said I didn't say what I did force yer hand to post where you got that shitte from too didn't it?

I hope to god Enema comes back next age too. Either I'll take my guild Foret or I'll be Foret in another guild so I can get away from the lying Isonians I can't TRUST an' still be able to kick yer fuckin asses every chance I get.


Damn Edits-

When Foret or Darden players "conspire against us" I sure do wish we had some lyingass traitor spy to depend on so we would know when yer gonna be scum killin us, when yer planning on hitting down at his for no goddamn reason, when yer planning a fucked up Scroll Sweep at the end of the age, when yer trading members around different guilds to pass cash or whatever, or ANY number of fucked up things YOU ALL have done to US in the past.

So you can take yer fuckin Holier Than Thou crock'a shitte an' shove it up yer ass. All of you.



[ This Message was edited by: Tara on 2002-08-19 15:17 ]


Blackdragon
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 15:14     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Well I see this as a chicken shit hit. Hitting a guild at war with the likes and numbers doesn't surprise me. Honor their is none of that there I've been playing since "97" and I've seen shit pulled like this before just something to to justify an interfaith alliance ....guilds say well all out fair targets are at war somebody says we could hit because of a TB post or ICQ ect....and it will be alright. also of the inter faith NAP's that I know are going onat the top has something to do with it

anyway it doesn't matter just tell the truth don't try to justify it with a bunch of BS


Ol' Fat Dragon
BkoS-guilds
Just another Face in the Masses


Lancelot
Solera

Posted: 2002-08-19 15:24     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
LOLOLOLOLOL this is just too rich.

Sunblade while I do not consider you an OOC spy. By continuing to hide the identity of the Isonian who gave you the info. You make yourself as bad as him. Now I can understand your wanting to keep your source secret. How else will you continue to keep gaining information on private message boards?


Now as far as EneMa and ISA jumping into bed on this. That does not surprise me for Khal does do what is best for his guild first. Last age he and I had a conversation and Agreement to wipe all the Forets out of the top 200 at the end of the age.

It did not happen on EneMa's part and as was revealed at the end of the age it was Khal's intent to hit TBL at the very end but the reset happened before he could do it. He does so love to blow smoke up people's asses. I knew it and was prepared for him and the Foret's.

Now I do not go over to the GM Isonian message board and talk. But there is a big difference between talking about something and actualy doing it. We all talk about doing something but never actually follow through on it.

And anyone who says they do not is a Liar.

So to guarentee their win or at least a try at it EneMa and ISA have jumped into bed together. No biggie I always love killing anyways. This is as good as any way to do it.


~GM of TDoD~
~Deadman Inc.~Back by Popular Demand~
~Loved by Few~Those that depend on Me~
~Founder Scumkillers Anonymous~


Pestilence~
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 15:47     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
YOU whine and you complain. YOU say Foret does this, Foret does that, while YOU do the same thing, and worse.

But YOU brought this upon YOUrselves. YOU speak of inter-faith alliances, but they are alliances that YOU have created. Next time YOU conspire, it would be best to make sure that YOU are unified. As it is, YOU werenít, and it came back and bit YOU in the ass.

Next time donít play with matches if YOU donít want to get burned. But for now, time to rest in the graves that YOU dug for YOUrselves




.........
One of the Four Horsemen
The scourge is upon you!


Bat
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:04     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I can say one thing and that is that OATHBOUND had never intention to scumkill whoever....

We had a war planned on DOW last night and we wanted to start it around mignight.

we all know what happened

it would have been a nice war

so i say FUCK to that SHITTY GUILD and war till the end. And good luck to ISA for another win of this age

you spoiled my day and i will spoil your weeks


GM OATHBOUND
IOM GM-->Valid
SSS coGm+IN Master of Drobens
DARDEN killer in SPEED


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:12     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Hey Pestilence, fuck off *Smirks* Only reason we never got to shove yer shitte down yer throats that you guys plan on us is none of YOU turn traitor to yer Faithmates.

Spirit in Black
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:16     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU...!!!

Shut up, Pestilence.

That was a cheap hit; and you know better. That is all I have to say.

My two cents for this cesspool known as guilds. Maybe you should take that and put it in a fund towards cleaning this place up.

*Grimmaces*




Bwaha.
ENeMA's Blackest GM


Lasher
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:23     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
-laughs-

I agree with Pestilence. It's not anyone fault for what has happened here besides alittle of your own and alot from the traitor.

I want to make a Guilds kingdom right now just so i can jump into this shit... so bad.


-Lash
Vroo binev en acem yub


Katalyna
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:35     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
This is... a shock. Not something I was looking forward to coming home to.

And I am quite curious to know who did this. Wanting to protect your sources is all good, but I don't agree with it... I think it's rather... well, I dunno. Especially considering the fact that it is all but OOC spying. I can't say I agree with or respect the decision, but I guess I understand.

To the rest of Isonia - sorry guys, but I"m owning up to what I posted on those boards. I'm sorry for the guilds that got attacked and drug into this, that was never my intention.

I had an idea. It was in the shower, and it seemed like it would be amusing. I used ENeMA and ISA as examples which should be seen in your proof - if it's not, then you didn't get the whole story, only parts of it. I have not seen the proof, and I really don't want to. Why? I think it would make me sick.

It was merely an idea, however - and if someone of your guild was mysteriously scumkilled, then I had nothing to do with it - you can ask anyone who has been around lately, I haven't. My online time has been severely limited.

But yes, it was -my- idea. This isn't the first time people have come up with ideas like this, and it won't be the last - unfortunately, this was brought public. The rest of my guild knew nothing about this, and if you haven't attacked several of them already, I ask that you don't, and that you take your anger out on my realm. It appears to be untouched, and I will willingly give you my number. In fact, I just ICQ'd it to SunBlade. Merry Christmas.

Why did I have this idea? Because I know that other people in other faiths have done this before, and it seemed like a good idea at the time. Of course, now I realize that any ideas that come to you in the shower aren't always good ideas. *sighs*

Will I deny it, or put pretty spin on it? No. This is the only post I am going to make on this subject, so please bear with me. My thoughts are rather in turmoil, and I need to get them all out.

Foret and Darden - am I sorry for posting it? No... it was a good idea at the time, and I was hoping it would add layers to the game. This is a war game, and this is was it is all about. I had also planned on seeing if anyone in the other two faiths would be interested in this when KBR faith hopped. Felt it would add that extra layer or so. *shrugs* Dishonorable? Perhaps. *shrugs* Do I care about that? At this point, not really. I haven't had hardly any sleep, and if it hadn't been for Tara messaging me with this, I wouldn't have even known.

To my guildmates, whom I've let down - I'm sorry, and words can't accurately express that. I didn't tell you guys 'cause quite frankly - it slipped my mind. The idea popped in my head, I was on my uncle's computer, and I had the chance to sit and IM with Abaddon. I took that chance, and my idea quite frankly fell to the back of my mind. I could've swore I mentioned it, but after going back in my IRC logs, I'm sorry. I didn't, and I understand your leaving and all that. It wasn't that I didn't trust you or anything like that - it was simply because my personal life was more important to me. It's not an excuse, and I don't blame any of you if you don't want to speak to me again.

As for KBR even being around - after this, we probably won't be. Why? The actions of the person that brought this to light have made me sad. I suppose I could place all the blame of this at their feet, but hell - I'm smart enough to realize this wouldn't have happened if I didn't mention it. Once more, I apologize to those I have let down. That's what upsets me the most out of this.

To Whomever did this: You suck.

And that's really all I had to say. Sorry for comandeering your thread for this, SunBlade, but the other one was closed.


Soshite bokutachi wa mata aeru hazu sa
Kokoro wa sugu soba ni iru
Donna ni hanarete itemo...

~ RONIN ~ PMS ~


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:39     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I wish you would too Lasher. Go ahead, but join Enema or else a won't have the pleasure of TBL or Oathbound attacking yer kingdom *L*

Khalistov
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-19 16:58     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Tara, Please take TBL to Foret.

That means that next age I should be able to pick up at least 10 Ex-Fervent members who still enjoy whooping the shit out of the guild that repeatedly never had what it took, even at superior odds and hitting down against us.

Please, go to Foret.


Quote:
When I said I didn't say what I did force yer hand to post where you got that shitte from too didn't it?



I'll try to translate that to english with the use of punctuation and past-tense verb conjugations.

It probably should read:

Quote:
"When I said that I didn't say what I did, it forced your hand to post where you got that shit from, too, didn't it."



You didn't force our hand.

On the contrary, you played right into it.

We (ENeMA) had already discussed posting the specific information in our initial post, but decided to wait until ater the various Isonians had taken to the boards to angrily defend their unquestionable integrity, allowing for your rebuttal to our accusations.

It was absolutely amazing to watch you backpedal on ICQ. First, I was "full of shit" and you had NEVER even talked about such a thing. Then you try to twist the context of what you said until presented with the actual quotes.

You would have sat there and lied to my face the entire time (and you would have been content to do so) as would have the other GM's who chose to sign-up for the mission.

Some of you have even been so retarded as to tell me "We weren't conspiring, we were just talking about it".

LMAO - That's rich.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourselves with the definition of "conspire".

The contention that "Isonia hadn't scum-killed anybody yet" does not negate the intent to do so.

Or, as Lancelot said:

Quote:
But there is a big difference between talking about something and actualy doing it.



In life, if you kill someone without just cause, the crime called "Murder".

Likewise, if you seek the assistance of others to kill someone, but have only 'talked about it' and have not yet proceeded with the actual killing, the crime is called "Conspiracy to Commit Murder".

The same principle applies here.

You had not commited murder, but you certainly conspired to do so in the way most despised by the community.

We took pre-emptive action against all who signed-on.

It's pretty cut and dry, but I'm sure people will be back in here twisting their own words into a new context, yet again.

But hey - it's all in good clean gamefun, right?



Pestilence~
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:02     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
That which YOU schemed were acts of war. YOU desired to kill those of ISA and Enema. If that is not war, I donít know what is. Organizing a scum strike is the same as organizing a war strike, they have the same end goal: kill the enemy.

However, YOU should not be upset at what has come to pass. If YOUr whole guild is scouted and seen doing so, do YOU just sit on YOUr ass and wait to get hit? No. YOU either wait and lay a trap, or preemptively strike at YOUr would be aggressor.

That is what happened. YOU would have been laughing YOUr asses off if it went YOUr way. But it didnít, YOUr strike was preempted, and now YOU complain.




.........
One of the Four Horsemen
The scourge is upon you!


Dauthi
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:09     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
THis is great.

We got ISA and Enema yellen at the Isonias for planning to do Scum kills and call us cowards and saying it is our fault for what has happend to us.

Then you got the Isonias saying O well lets fight just tell me who ratted us out so we can treat them as such.

Then you got ISA/Enema people going off on how it is our fault still and they dont want to give up their only way at getting dirt on Isonia leaders.

Then we call you all OOC Spys for not feeding us the information the real spy.

Then you go and say it is still our fault for making said thread and we should leave it at that. Totaly avoiding the fact that we want the OOC SPY. The TRAITOR.

Give us the name, So we can deal with him. Then you will give you petty little war like you wanted it with out all the bitching and moaning.....


A Nobody in a game of Nobodies.


seaNile_
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:11     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
It seems quite ridiculous to expect Sunny to reveal his sources. Anybody that nows Sunny in the least knows he is as honorable as tey come and he would never go "spying" for information.

Isonia got called out for shitty tactics. And then they cry because one of theur own used shitty tactics in turn. I find it ironically humorous you Isonias would get so pissed because somebody within your faith is dishonorable. Hell, your faith has been that way for ages. Now it bites you in the ass.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. You swim with the sharks....well, you get the point.

But don't blame Sunny because you are a faith full of questionable tactics and those tactics backfired.

This is far from ooc spying. This is far from Sunny being dishonorable for not revealing his sources. This is Isonia lying in their own bed.

To ask Sunny to give his surces shows you just don't get it.

I mean, how could some dishonorable isonia be so dishonorable and tell Somebody about our dishonorable plans?

I find it priceless. I must admit, I am a wee bit disappointed in a few Isonian and Forets that i thought played the game better than that.


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