- Temper's Ball
- Guilds (OOC)


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Author Character Defence
Dauthi
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:21     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
No it is more or less.

You are 100% for the faith and you do what is needed to help the faith win or you get the fuck out of our council, and go join another faith.

Honor I could care less. I have killed with scum kills alone 3 or four people all together, two from ISA for sure, I think one from LKA.

Why do I do it. Cause it is part of the game. Get two people with 7k E theives and 125... just start killing peasants on a dude. Even if you dotn kill all his peasants his theives are all now dead. Making so anyone else can get in and do it also.

I never said I was honorable, I never said we as a Faith is honorable, nore would I care if everyone else was honorable. I want to know who I have to bannish form our faith council because they would rather sell out their faith then be apart of their faith even if it is good or bad.


Joining a Faith is like getting married threw the good times and the bad time. For better or for worse. Threw sickness and health. and all that other mumble jombo shitfuck stuff.




Want to play the game? - - - Willing to play Isonia in two games? Contact me I will pay for people to play under the god of Isonia.(Yes, that means you can join any guild of Isonia) GM of DWT(guilds) - GM of LSD(lgs) - LMS


Portia
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:29     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Could someone who is CALM AND RATIONAL please explain to me where the OOC spying comes into this?

We did not seek this info out to my knowledge, it was offered.

I hardly think that makes us the fuck-ups here.


Portia
Sunblade really knows how to get a girl hot.
GM ENeMA- Oh what a feeling!


Lep Haystacker
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:34     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Excuse me while I giggle.

They have to reveal their sources to you? Yeah, ok there. I know Dauthi's high on something, but I didn't expect it from the rest of the faith.

You have someone you can't trust in your faith. It's your job to figure it out. Not ours. Babysit your own faith.




Asoc
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:41     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I am curious if the informant is ashamed of what he did?

Shouldn't he be proud of his outstanding morals? Or is he just like the ones he decided to inform on in his eyes?

are we no better then the ones we choose to asociate with and protect?

I have no problem with the hits on Isonia due to the information leaked.

The conversation that went on, according to that stuff on that geocities website at first seemed inocent but when people actually began agreeing to it and times were beginning to be set made it not just a simple conversation but became actual plans to be set in motion soon.

GMs of a faith should have the right to talk in a private message board and feel secure and know that the heathens will never find out about their conversations and plans.

I don't see why the informants identity can't be revealed.

But, at the same time, I see reasons why anyone who knows who the informant is would not want to reveal the informants identity...


Odominus
Nobleman

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:53     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Oh man this is rich.

I'm the spy. It was me. I entered the room under the psuedo-identity: Thisaintodo.

I prowled around a bunch.

I said some Isonianish things like, "There's a fly in my cool-aid" and "Is it ok to spray cologne on me nubs?", etc.

I assumed the ancient ninja position Drunken Stork and avoided notice.

And the subterfuge worked. Not one Isonian GM caught on that I was there.

So I sat back. Took some notes and screenshots and viola!

War. Crazy war.

ulp! (damn gag)

[/sarcasm]

Odo


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 17:55     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Oh my I typo'ed the letter "D". Do forgive me, I know it was something to quote on an' point out in yer pettiness to have me discredited as a fuckin player around here an' I don't care what you think anymore.

Khal you can say what ever you want about TBL, I know how good that guild was an' is an' I also know that plenty'a people don't think much of Enema either.

I don't care that you found out about the possibility of scum kills that would have happened once yer guilds got back to war with us. So what? Yer damn right I'd put turns down on a kill for my faith, you would an' have done the same. If I had found out about it I would have told MY OWN faith about it then hit the guilds in question, surely, an' I would put forth the faith-traitor as well.

Portia. The OOC Spying thing comes from the fact that Enema would rather "protect its source" than show the traitor to the Isonian faith for what he or she is. A traitor. There is ONLY one reason Enema would protect that traitor an' that is so you can have a nice little spy in our ranks while we don't know who it is.

You have successfully broken the Trust the Iso faith has tried so fucking hard to build in itself over the last two to three Ages here. You wanted people to quit playing against you, fine, you've done it. You have guilds disbanding an' players quitting left an' right now. I'm sure you all couldn't be happier about that.

In yer rush to kiss ISA's ass an' show what Faith Enema REALLY belongs to you have stomped on a lot of yer friends in the process. But I guess you guys don't care about that either.

The only difference between what we "might have" done with scum killing like that an' the fucked up things Enema an' Foret guilds have done to us is that you all had the convenience of having some spineless punk tell you about it.



[ This Message was edited by: Tara on 2002-08-19 17:57 ]


SoulDemon
Admin

Posted: 2002-08-19 18:25     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
The "OOC Spying" concept comes from the fact that Isonia got caught with its hand in the cookie jar, and has no other term to call this situation without admitting that some of these supposed "honorable" players and "honorable" guilds were involved in a "dishonorable" scheme.

But with that said - when did Honor really matter in this game ;>

Rather then playing a Saint and blaming everyone but yourselves - blame yourselves, get pissed off, then follow through with your plans. How many ages did Foret pull something akin to this - its guilds attacking the highest ranking kingdoms, not even caring about the guild.

Scum kill until your heart is content, then do it again next age. The end game is what faith comes out on top - and if you want to take it a step further, what guild comes out on top.

You are not going to come out on top rolling your eyes while feigning innocence and saying "Well, that wasnt me involved. Nevermind the fact the posting persona appeared on that thread, saying its a good idea, labeling the guilds we should hit, commiting my guild to this action who had no idea it was being discussed.

No, it was the other KBR, or TBL, or ISA, or ENEMA. It couldn't be me."

The only thing that matters is you play the game the way its meant to be played. You don't undermine the spirit of the game, and you don't violate the rules while doing it. While it seems that alot of you "veteran" players seem to think you understand the spirit of the game - and are quick to use that as a defense when you are caught or destroyed. Its not.

Its not OOC spying. It was a member of your faith betraying you for reasons all to their own. Apply your brains, figure out who did it - then embarass them publically. Just like it has always been.

Nobody cheated -- or nobody has been proven to of cheated. If they did then I'll be more then happy to rectify the situation on everyone's behalf.

Now stop throwing accusations around and interpreting rules to suit your needs - or in a couple cases, making up rules. Play the game. Murder, death, maim and destroy.

Why? Because it makes your God(ess) happy.


Pale night whisper - break.
Bright hopeful dreams - destroy.
Withered flesh remains - consume.


Gorgon Zola
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 18:33     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I would be one those Sotep members that sunblade talked to. And yes he did seem like a nice guy.

I don't have much use for politics, i never got to involved in it, never met many people. This doesn't offend me personally, more so what offends me is teh cheapness of it. ISA attacks our lil guild while we already at war. So we won't be stopped by thigns like honor anymore. Anyone who sees this whole situation should have the same feeling, anythign goes now.


SoTEP forever
-BkoS-


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 18:41     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Yep yer right Demmy *L* like I said a dozen times before I don't care they know, I care that they would rather keep their little spy in our ranks. No telling how much more info they will or have gotten from them before *Shrugs*

I won't be playing Iso next age period, whether or not we move TBL to another Faith is something I'll hav'ta discuss with our members an' Little Devil most importantly because no matter who GM's it is an' always will be HIS guild.

I will be doing exactly what you say Demmy, no matter what guild I'm in I will always put turns down on a kill for Faith when someone's at war with us. Always. An' I could care less who knows it.




seaNile_
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 18:51     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Please don't join Darden. ;p

[ This Message was edited by: seaNile_ on 2002-08-19 18:52 ]


Huma Dragonsbane
Nobleman

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:07     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
I left Isonia cause of this crap. I left Isonia cause I couldn't stomach being in the same faith as TBL. Don't come to Foret *shivers* I really don't want to have to become a Dardenite


Not takin nothin from no one
give 'em hell long as I'm breathin
Keep kickin ass in the mornin and takin names in the evenin

GM|NO MAAM


Zann
Tiram

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:09     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
if Tara decides to join Darden i will welcome her she does play for her faith i know. Im sure others in the Darden faith will welcome her also.


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:10     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Oh shut the fuck up Huma. I could give a DAMN what -you- think or have to say about my guild at all.

Sunblade
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:11     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Strange - if you couldn't care less who knows it, you've done a hell of a lot of protesting, accusing, insulting, and misspelling of the word "shit".

Quote:
A traitor. There is ONLY one reason Enema would protect that traitor an' that is so you can have a nice little spy in our ranks while we don't know who it is.

You have successfully broken the Trust the Iso faith has tried so fucking hard to build in itself over the last two to three Ages here.



I didn't. My source did. If he/she decides to reveal themselves, then that's up to them. If not, I'll continue to consider them someone who stood up for their morals, instead of for their ingame standing.

That's not an OOC spy - that's someone who cares about people's enjoyment of the game over their kingdom's networth. All kudos to them.

Quote:
You wanted people to quit playing against you, fine, you've done it. You have guilds disbanding an' players quitting left an' right now. I'm sure you all couldn't be happier about that.



If you read the opening post you'd see that this is the opposite of what I wanted. But no. You didn't read it, you didn't read anything I or ENeMA posted, and you'll go on ranting about how evil we are until your keyboard breaks.

That's how petty TBL are.

As SeaNile said - don't join Darden.


SunBlade
The E-Team - ENeMA GM
That's why it's called English, Brighty Darling.


Whit
Ominar

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:11     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote

The reality is that the Isonians have given someone access to the "Private Board" to someone that does not deserve it. Over the years, this happens enough that there are patterns to it. More often than not, someone had access in the last age and was not taken off the list when they no longer are in a postion of Isonian authority. The other possibility is that someone that legitimately has access has shared the information posted there with people outside the faith for reasons not known at this time. I can assure you that if that is the case, it was done for the benefit of the guild or individual doing the sharing.

I don't remember ever talking more than once or twice with Sunblade in the past, so don't bother saying that I am covering for a buddy. It is not Sunblade's fault for listening. Nor is it his obligation to ferret out the Isonian perpetrator. Sunblade's obligation is to his guild and his faith in that order. Further, if he was told something in confidence under a promise not to divulge the source, then he is HONOR bound to keep that confidence.

I have read through these posts with no small level of amusement. Many of you sitting on high and casting stones over this need to think back over the years at how much of this you have done yourselves. You can say that you have never done any OOC spying, yet you share information over ICQ with faithmates and heathens alike to benefit your guilds. That is OOC.

As players, we have developed a code of conduct that says No OOC Spying. Of course that same code says don't hit down, and don't hit people already in a war. As players, we have not done very well with any of those codes. Black ops have always been a part of the game. Sometimes, it is brought to the front and people wail and whine about it and call it names such as OOC and the like.

I have caught spies in my guild. I have caught spies in my faith. I have even caught spies in other faiths and brought them to light. Spies are a part of war, both real and in game. If you have a spy in your guild, it is your fault for letting him in and not his for applying.

Okay, somebody?s been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Move on. Learn from the past. Clean up your own back yards before complaining about the neighborhood.


The reality is that the Isonians have given someone access to the "Private Board" to someone that does not deserve it. Over the years, this happens enough that there are patterns to it. More often than not, someone had access in the last age and was not taken off the list when they no longer are in a postion of Isonian authority. The other possibility is that someone that legitimately has access has shared the information posted there with people outside the faith for reasons not known at this time. I can assure you that if that is the case, it was done for the benefit of the guild or individual doing the sharing.

It is not Sunblade's fault for listening. Nor is it his obligation to ferret out the Isonian perpetrator. Sunblade's obligation is to his guild and his faith in that order. Further, if he was told something in confidence under a promise not to divulge the source, then he is HONOR bound to keep that confidence.

I have read through these posts with no small level of amusement. Many of you sitting on high and casting stones over this need to think back over the years at how much of this you have done yourselves. You can say that you have never done any OOC spying, yet you share information over ICQ with faithmates and heathens alike to benefit your guilds. That is OOC.

As players, we have developed a code of conduct that says No OOC Spying. Of course that same code says don't hit down, and don't hit people already in a war. As players, we have not done very well with any of those codes. Black ops have always been a part of the game. Sometimes, it is brought to the front and people wail and whine about it and call it names such as OOC and the like.

I have caught spies in my guild. I have caught spies in my faith. I have even caught spies in other faiths and brought them to light. Spies are a part of war, both real and in game. If you have a spy in your guild, it is your fault for letting him in and not his for applying. The same is true with your "Private Boards".

Okay, somebody?s been caught with their hand in the cookie jar. Move on. Learn from the past. Clean up your own back yards before complaining about the neighborhood.




David, Zack, and Tessa's Dad
Go "Canes!
DotFR




[ This Message was edited by: Whit on 2002-08-19 19:26 ]


Stee Jans
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:14     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
*pokes SeaNile*

Ah, it's nice to see that things are finally relaxed and simply filled with the occasional realm croaking in battle.

There's really only one point I would disagree with on the whole matter, and that would be hitting the guilds that were at war. I didn't know about the plans of who precisely we were hitting, hence, no advance knowledge, but them's the breaks.

But as Sunny said, and as many others have reiterated, this is no reason to quit the game. This is an ingame action, which should only yield ingame response, in an ideal situation.

Yes, we hit. Yes, you all disagree with the hit. Worst case scenario, as it should be, you lose your realms. Whoop-dee-doo, god knows I've lost enough by simply existing. Even without the info we received, this hit would still be a decent one. How many did we hit? 80 or so? Around 15-20 realms our superior in numbers? I wouldn't be surprised if the total nets were pretty close at the beginning.

Even without the info, something would have happened. ISA and ENeMA would have had to hit down, for lack of other targets, and we would have hit down against more members.

Add in the info, and you get a motivating factor for action.

I don't know who the informant was, because honestly, it doesn't concern me too much and I'd rather remain far removed from something like spying. Does this makes us spies? No. We just got info. But that point has been hit already.

SD is right, the way people should be responding, is as people should respond againt any adversity, by fighting it. You have to rise up against what you feel is wrong, and that's all that really matters.

People should not quit over a war in a war game.

People should not disband guilds over a war in a war game.

People should not just abandon their faith because of a war in a war game.

Shit happens, stay the course and be better for it.

I'll echo Sunny's sentiments, if you feel like quitting, hit me up on ICQ first. I already know a couple people I intend to track down for that reason.

Now this is my last serious post, goddammit, someone set something on fire already.

And no, not my realm, thank you very much.


ENeMA GM
The Warhawk is Sharpening his Talons.


Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:20     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
"I'll continue to consider them someone who stood up for their morals, instead of for their ingame standing."


Ok by that point, then anyone in the Foret or Darden faith that participated in that Scroll Sweep before didn't have the "morals" to stand up to the rest of you.

Hell Enema itself was ALL FOR killing off every Foret kingdom in the top 200 last age, so I guess that was just a set up by Enema an' Khal outright lied about it from the start.

Don't try'n tell me for a goddamn second that Foret players an' Enema people have not scum killed others, have not done even worse than that before. You can't blame people for wanting to do what has been done to them time an' time again.


Little Devil
Solera

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:29     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Quote:
What makes OOC spying:
1) Joining a guild and giving away its memberlist to heathens.
2) Putting someone in a guild with the express purpose of getting their memberlist.
3) Putting someone in a guild to learn their plans.
4) Impersonating another person in order to gain access to a faith chat to gain information.



Nice to have it adapt your views. I put it more simply tho.

OOC Spying is any way of gleaming information which is not offered by ingame mechanics.

Simply one line. Not hard.

=shrugs= you didnt do it nor did you command it. as i told you when you interpelated me on icq.

But by your action you give a sign out that this kind of behavior is right. That spying in private areas of a faith is right.

And as for the fact that it wouldnt be spying. It's why during the cold war they named some spies double spies. because a spy for one side would in fact mime working with that side while spying for the other. At times on its own initiative at times guided and bought.

It remains spying ...

Not that it matters. Just call a cat a cat and dont try to make it look like a pidgeon if ya get the words.


Lep Haystacker
Siquan

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:44     Profile;   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
Well, fuck then, Little Devil. I guess databases are out. Those handy little things people code aren't provided by in game mechanics! oh no!

Oh, shit. I guess ICQ and AIM are out too. We tell our guildmates about war and chat about in guild stuff on them, heaven forbid!

Quote:
OOC Spying is any way of gleaming information which is not offered by ingame mechanics.



Shit shit shit! I've been so against OOC cheating my whole existence here and here, I've been doing it! Oh, the horror.

Someone please kill me! The memory of all those mIRC chats...oh, damn! All the cheating I've done. -sobs-

Let's look at this line again:

Quote:
OOC Spying is any way of gleaming information which is not offered by ingame mechanics.



Fuck. Then what's the board this was posted on if not OOC cheating?




Tara
Venrii

Posted: 2002-08-19 19:47     Profile;   E-mail   Homepage Edit   Reply w/Quote
"this is an Isonian sending me proof of plans to scumkill ENeMA while we were at war, and us reacting."


From what Sunblade told Little Devil on icq.


Our posts in that private thread SAID NOT when you guys were at war with others but when you were at war with us.

Justifying yer hitting us now by saying it's because you found out about some possible scum kills is just fine, I hope to GOD some people in yer guild an' the Foret faith start having some "morals about playing the game" the next time you all sit around an' talk about scum killing people an' scroll sweeping people an' all that other shitte you do.


[ This Message was edited by: Tara on 2002-08-19 19:54 ]


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