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Interview with Saif Abu Keshek

Interview with Saif Abu Keshek on 23.02.03 byMax Watson, ISM London

In the past months the world situation has taken a dramatic trajectory in the direction of an international catastrophy. During this crisis, the Israeli state has taken advantage of the world’s attention being turned away from the occupation of Palestine. The diversion of the war on Iraq has meant an increrased terror campaign conducted with imunity against the Palestinian people.

Throughout this period the ISM has continued its important work supporting the Palestinian people, and given practical solidarity to those suffering from war crimes and atrocities. The Israelis have responded to the continued presence of internationals by stepping up its intimidation and aggression towards peace activists in occupied Palestine. This campaign has culminated in the recent murder of an American activist, Rachel Corrie, in Gaza on March 15th 2003. This intimidation is testimony to the effectiveness of the work of ISM and other solidarity groups. The following is an interview carried out on the 23rd February 2003, with Saif Abu Keshek whilst he was in London, UK.

Saif Abu Keshek, 21, has been active for the best part of his life in the struggle against the occupation of Palestine. He is a co-ordinator for the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) in Nablus, West Bank. Here, Max Watson talks with Saif about the ISM, the recent elections in Israel, the two and half year long Intifada, and the War with Iraq.

Interview starts...

Tell me about the ISM.

ISM is an international solidarity movement. It’s an international, Palestinian lead movement taking action against the occupation. Internationals started doing campaigns in August 2000. In 2002 the movement decided that we would have a full time presence in all the areas.

Where does the ISM come from? Has it always been international or Palestinian based?

In fact it was both. Four people founded the ISM. Neta was organising an action against the occupation in Nablus. There was also others... and they decided to meet and talk and they initiated the ISM. Then it was decided that the movement should be Palestinian lead as it is the land of the Palestinians, and it should be different from all other movements. It’s agreements are consensus made. Group decisions and individual activists taking part and being trained have the same voice as any other members - it is non hierarchical and based on consensus. We have few rules - we are non violent so we do not carry weapons. Also, in respect for the culture of the Palestinians, we do not drink alcohol and we do not have relationships inside the group and we abide by decisions made by consensus. Any questions about the decisions made are able to be discussed again at any meetings.

Would you say that the ISM takes advantage of the racism of the Israeli state?

Yes, the internationals have rights that Palestinians don’t. An international has the right to go through check points when a Palestinian can’t. It is so easy to kill a Palestinian in front of a tank or a soldier but it is very difficult to kill an international. Not because they care for your lives - no, unfortunately, but because they care for their image in the media.

The Israelis fights an aggressive media war. Is the key to the success of the Palestinian struggle international solidarity sought through your media work?

An important part of the ISM is our media work... But we are having many difficulties at the moment with material and equipment. For example at the moment, as the invasion of Nablus takes place, we have not been able to fully document this invasion as we have no filming equipment there at the moment... and there are no other organisations in Nablus that can document what is going on.

What is the importance to international support for the Palestinian struggle.. e.g. The demonstration in London against the war with Iraq was calling for freedom for Palestine: How is this important for the Palestinians?

I think it is important when we see it. It is important to change the media - they portray all the Palestinians as terrorists. This is not true at all. All the internationals who go to Palestine will see that it is not true. When you stay with families - all our supporters stay with families they can see whether the Palestinians are terrorists or not.

Also part of the aim for the internationals is to go home again and to put pressure on their own governments to act against what the Israelis are doing?

Yes, exactly. There is a statement in the ISM that says ‘when the people lead, their leaders will follow’. So when the people come back to their movements at home they should put pressure on their governments and their own organisations at home to act.

Tell me about the situation in Palestine at the moment.

The media focused on the demonstrations all over the world on Saturday. So the media is focused on other issues. The Israelis take advantage of this - over 35 Palestinians were killed in these last three days - in fact more because 11 more got killed today.

So Israel is taking any chance they have. If the media wants to look at what is happening in Palestine they do not look back three days ago. They will see it when it is peaceful. The daily humiliation of our day to day lives is not highlighted.

How do you think the war on Iraq is going to effect Palestine? Do you think there will be a wider war and what will be the role of the other Arab nations for Palestine?

It is clear that for over 2 years of the intifada the other Arab nations have not done anything for us. But this is the governments. As a people they will move and they might not accept the way their governments work and they should put pressure on their governments to act. It is clear that [those governments] will not do anything now.

If they don’t do anything they will regret it. I think history repeats itself...

The PLO has turned its attention for backing amongst the Western governments, rather than calling for support from the Arab world. How do you feel about this approach?

I think any kind of negotiations with the West are so far no good. The position of Israel is clear - Israel takes care of Palestine and the US take care of Iraq. I think that the relation with the media will focus on the bombing of Iraq and ignore Palestine.

They are talking about a transferral of the Palestinians - but it might be a massacre. It might be a new attack as in many many other times.

Do you see this as a weakness in the Palestinian leadership of Arafat?

Its not about one person . It is an issue of supporting Palestinian people. Another issue is supporting Arafat.

I do not see that they are trying to stop Israel. If you are silent you are supporting the occupation.

The intifada resistance will go forever. 55 years of war and they do not give up and lose hope - the opposite. They are a very strong people, willing to lose there lives forever - 2 years of intifada - 2 and a half. They will continue even though many people get killed. I don't thing the Israelis can stop the Palestinian by power. If they want to they can try to transfer the Palestinians but they have already created so many refugees. There is no where else to go. So their choice is to fight or die. They will never give up.

How important are the links with the Jewish organisations?

I think it is important for both - that the Israeli groups organise together - important. The Israeli groups should organise actions against the occupation inside Israel so the government will see that their people do not want the occupation. We know Israelis who do actions and they want to come to Palestine. We have many friends inside Israel and we welcome them here to fight with us. The human right organisations are important as we are in touch all the time. If there are people stuck at a checkpoint we tell them and there is a huge effect from time to time. It is also important that they do actions inside Israel as well.

The government doesn’t represent the Israeli people. It is how democracy works... how much do you think that its true that the Israelis actually want peace?

You might not agree ... but the people who voted in the recent elections, 49 percent was a very small number. Some say that one half of the population agree with what is happening and the other half do not agree with what is going on. I disagree with this. As a Palestinian I do not feel that this is having an effect. You don’t change by not going to vote. If only the people who vote is left - you didn’t take part in actions, you didn’t take to the streets... this is not the right thing to do.

Do you think the majority do not support the government? By abstaining?

If they do not take part in anything they are letting it happen, they are not taking a side. You might not like what the government is doing but it does not effect you, so its all right.

And there was no boycott by the Arab population...

No. They thought that they would get rid of Sharon but he won...

Do you not see much hope in the Israelis who are against the occupation, for example, the ‘Refuseniks’?

No - what they say is they refuse to fight in the West Bank because they will get killed. They are willing to fight in the army inside Israel. They don't say they won’t serve because it is an illegal occupation - they don't say this at all.

Do you not hold much hope for Israeli organisations being at the forefront in the fight against the occupation? Do you think that the Palestinians can live in peace with the Jews?

I am staying here in London with a Jewish woman. We can live in peace - of course we can.

It is a question of whether the Israelis can live in peace with the Palestinians. This is an important point because I think there are things we need to talk about - the right of return. Because if a Jew has the right to come back from Ethiopia or Somalia or wherever then I have the right to go back to Palestine.

But because now it is a Jewish State for a Jewish people there cannot be peace?

It is not because it is a Jewish state for a Jewish people. It is because it is an occupation. We do not have a problem with the regime. We don't have a problem with the Jews themselves. We have a problem with not having our rights.

People in Palestine have never known anything different from the occupation... people grow up under the terror of the Israeli occupation...

You don't grow up as a child in Palestine - we don't have children in Palestine. It is a problem. A child does not have the chance to live a normal life - to play football or even to go to school. Is this too much to ask?. If you kill his father or his family you take away his life too.

How does this affect the way they see the Jews?

They hate the Jews. A child cannot make the difference between an Israeli and a soldier. They see them as all the same. What they learn when they are young stays with them.

When in Palestine I was told that Palestinians live, but they don't have a life...

Yes - I am being punished just because I am Palestinian... that is why I had so many troubles getting into Europe with my Passport.

Do you think the tactic of suicide bombing is almost a retaliation to the collective punishment faced by Palestinians?

Suicide bombing is the second disaster in Palestine. The occupation is trying to add suicide into Palestinian culture. People see people get killed all the time. It does not make it better for them it makes it worse. The hatred grows in them and they hate the other side ... they want to have their revenge. This is a big problem. I don't think that the suicide bombs are the right choice ... but the Israeli government put this choice into the hand of the Palestinian people. They forced the Palestinians to choose the suicide bombs. They didn’t give them a chance.

Then they can use that to their advantage - call the Palestinians terrorists... So then they can say they need more weapons, more ‘security’ etc...

I understand your point. For the media to say that the Palestinians are doing these killings: But I have another opinion. It is easy to find this kind of lie. I do not see that what the Palestinians are doing is the reason they are occupying - they are doing it anyway. I can see in the other part of the world there are two choices. To see what is going on, or just believe what you are told. It had been over two months without bombs in Israel [before the last bomb in Tel Aviv] but do you hear about this? I disagree with the bombs but I understand why my friends do it.

Because you don't grow up in Palestine - you have this situation forced upon you - people would rather die than want to live under this regime. They don't seem to care about this they don't seem to worry. Israel is breeding this hate...

The Palestinians will never accept this.

Do you have much hope for change?

I have. I think it is the responsibility of people all over the world for this change to happen. If we leave it like this and accept what is going on then there will be little change... if we force the change then it will happen. If we are positive about the future... if many people decided to do direct action inside Palestine then this will surely change things. If people do actions inside Israel then things will change. If we are a few numbers in the ISM and we can make a change then what if many people joined us ....

I have hope yes - I have much hope. In my lifetime I don’t know. I think in my kids time maybe - I don't know about in my lifetime. The movement is growing all the time. It depends on when the people decide to stop the last armed occupation on earth .

This is the key - you were in Palestine. Did your presence make a difference?

Yes, but I think there needs to be much more of a difference. I saw tangible results from small day to day changes, but its temporary. Because I am an international I could help with things which a Palestinian could not... but I also saw a problem with the Israelis - they do not see that they will have to live with other people in their state...

Is there still strong support for the intifada? In the West it is portrayed as an Islamic Jihad - a holy war against Israel. They paint it in the same light as Al Q’ada - an Islamic fundamentalist movement...

The people have been fighting for Palestine before Al Q’ada was formed. Suicide bombs never happened until Israel does something first to make the people want revenge. The Palestinians never inititated an attack. They say that if they do something wrong why do you do the same? I agree, but the killing of both is wrong. It is your responsibility... The attacks started during the intifada - each day 30 or 40 Palestinians were dying. We can’t ask Palestinians to just die by themselves.

So there is strong support for the armed resistance?

Surely there is support for the armed resistance. It is one of the rights of the Palestinians to fight back against the occupation.

The ISM supports non violent direct action, not armed struggle...

Yes, but also we recognise the right of the Palestinians to choose their way of resistance. To join our way of resistance or to choose armed struggle.

And non-violent resistance can take many forms: from breaking curfew to removing a roadblock...

It is completely... they can choose what kind of resistance they want to do. It is an international right for any country or any people to choose the armed struggle.

As is the case in Ireland...

Why are we focusing on the Palestinian suicide bombers when people forget about the Irish doing suicide bombs... why do people not recognise this?

We encourage them to join us. But we do not say not to do this [to join the armed resistance]. It is their right.

What would you say to people who want to support the Palestinians but cannot go to Palestine?

I would say to all people to come to Palestine. There is nothing to lose except to stop the disaster that is going on there. Also I would say to them if you are not able to go there to see for yourself there are many things that need to be done. Anyone can work on the media, collect funds to support us. And each time you hear about a friend who has been detained, you can call the relevant embassy in Israel... There are many many roles.

Interview Ends.

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