ESRI.com | Contact Us | Site Map
FEATURED TECH: data model icon Data Models

ArcGIS Desktop Discussion Conference

ArcGIS: General Concepts forum

ArcGIS has problems!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Lon Sharp Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ianko Tchoukanski Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Neil Clemmons Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Coffman Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   shawn deutch Feb 11, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Violet Gray Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Patty Rueger Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 21, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Coffman Jan 22, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ben Brown Jan 22, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kirk Kuykendall Jan 22, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Randy McGregor Feb 07, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Jan 22, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Daniel Jacobs Jan 23, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Craig Williams Jan 23, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   David Barnes Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tift Tax GIS Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Steven Korzekwa Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Lon Sharp Feb 02, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Steven Korzekwa Feb 11, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Jason Thomas Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Susan Wise-Eagle Feb 04, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Nils Babel Feb 12, 2004
Re: Hardware Upgrading makes ArcGIS Suck le...   Rutheyi Thompson Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Joanna Cooper Feb 18, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Todd Thies Jan 23, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Brian Henley Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Randy McGregor Feb 07, 2004
Satisfy the Customers!   Rutheyi Thompson Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Greg Gagliano Feb 02, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Brian MacSharry Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Guy Precht Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Sam Hottinger Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tessa Cassiers Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Maynard Hansen Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ying Lin Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   John Rohde Feb 01, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ying Lin Feb 02, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   sashi kumar Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Brent Hoskisson Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ying Lin Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ying Lin Jan 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Eric Hillmuth Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ben Slater Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ying Lin Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   John Shelton Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mara Woosley Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kirt Foster Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Art Ludwick Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Todd Thies Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Todd Thies Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Greg Gagliano Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Greg Gagliano Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Steve Clement Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kirt Foster Feb 10, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Derek McNamara Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Dan Patterson Jan 29, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Chris Gould Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Joseph Weidinger Jan 30, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ryan Cooper Feb 02, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Greg Gagliano Feb 02, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ettiene Spykerman Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Jason Ebersole Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kendall James Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tom Price Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Michael Nerup Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Jeff Wang Feb 03, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tom Price Feb 04, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Laudon Feb 04, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kathy Aha Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Peter Krembs Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Sam Hottinger Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Peter Krembs Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ryan Cooper Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Art Ludwick Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   brian kelly Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   John Roberts Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Scott Moore Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   sashi kumar Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Joseph Weidinger Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Guyn2 GIS Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ettiene Spykerman Feb 05, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Matt Frost Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Troy Schmidt Feb 06, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Paul Bata Feb 08, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Steven Scruggs Feb 09, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tift Tax GIS Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tift Tax GIS Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Matthew Barlow Feb 09, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Karla Streharsky Feb 09, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Abdul Rauf Feb 09, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   William Everingham Feb 10, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! Crashes   Darren Eddlemon Feb 10, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! Crashes   Karla Streharsky Feb 10, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Dracos Tavern Feb 11, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Kathy Aha Feb 11, 2004
Re: tips   David Barnes Feb 11, 2004
Re: tips   Ed Dempsey Feb 11, 2004
Re: tips   Kathy Aha Feb 11, 2004
Re: tips   Bert Durgan Feb 11, 2004
Re: tips   Bert Durgan Feb 11, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tessa Cassiers Feb 12, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tift Tax GIS Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Diego Mathis Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Matt Frost Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Craig Williams Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Matt Frost Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Gordon Deane Feb 19, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Neil Clemmons Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Matt Frost Feb 13, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Charles Fried Feb 18, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Palabert Palabert Feb 18, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Adam Sow Feb 16, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Coen Nengerman Feb 17, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   S K Feb 17, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Greg Stangler Feb 20, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! (if you let it)   Tim Minter Feb 20, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Wayne Thogmartin Feb 25, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   James Harding Feb 25, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Coffman Feb 25, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Feb 25, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   G. Venkata Vijay Kumar Feb 25, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Joanna Cooper Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Steven Korzekwa Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ron Vincent Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Mark Seibel Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Brian Henley Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Karla Streharsky Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   G. Venkata Vijay Kumar Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Ettiene Spykerman Feb 26, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Peter Krembs Feb 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Charles Fried Feb 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Tift Tax GIS Feb 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   Eric Hillmuth Feb 27, 2004
Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!   sashi kumar Feb 27, 2004
Re: 1) "nomadic" graphics 2) crashes   Karla Streharsky Feb 27, 2004
Re: 1) "nomadic" graphics 2) crashes   Tom Price Feb 27, 2004
• Top Print Reply    
Subject ArcGIS has problems!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message Let me see, where should I start? How about the fact that ArcMap crashes on me about 10 times a day. This mostly happens the second time I save. Or it happens when I scan through a table. Or whatever. And don't go off telling me I need to upgrade because I'm using the latest service pack. I'm doing nothing other than saving a project that has some VBA code. And no this isn't crashing because of some error in my code. This mostly happens when I save the project.

ESRI should be ashamed of itself for releasing such worthless software. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Lon Sharp 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message I am running ArcGIS 8.3, no service packs. I run ArcMap most of the day, every day, editing very large datasets. ArcMap crashes on me for no reason perhaps once a month. The only time I run into problems is when I am trying to run another memory-hungry program at the same time.
This is in contrast to the several-times-daily "Segmentation Violations" of ArcView 3.x. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ianko Tchoukanski 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message I think that the Software is good. Remember that this is not Excel where 2 + 2 = 4. It has it's problems, but nothing that bad. Check your VBA code. 
  http://www.ian-ko.com 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message ^^ This has nothing to do with my code. It crashes when I press the SAVE button. This is a basic function of the software. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Neil Clemmons 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message If you have VBA user forms loaded into memory (this is quite different than having them visibile by the way), ArcMap can crash when you save. 
  Neil Clemmons
Geographic Information Services, Inc.
Birmingham, AL
http://www.gis-services.com 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message ^^^^^ It still crashes whether the code has ran or not. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Coffman 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message Ron. I think what he is trying to say is that YOUR CODE IS FLAWED. You aren't releasing your objects. Release them and ArcMap will not crash. It does not crash for me. If you are running the latest arcmap then there are two differences.

1) YOUR VBA CODE
2) YOUR HARDWARE

Either or both of them are bad. And either settle down or vote for howard dean.

 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message To Mr. Coffman:

The forms and such aren't running and this still happens. There are no objects running because I stop the project. These are memory errors from ArcMap, not errors from my code. Actaully, ArcMap crashes in lots of different scenarios. The fact is that ArcMap shouldn't just crash. How can you defend software that completely crashes on such a regular interval. It's almost like clockwork. It crashes in other instances also and I'm sure there are hundreds if not thousands of users that have had ArcMap crash many a time for no apparent reason. It is unstable software. I can't believe companies and governments invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in this crap.

I've used ESRI software for 14 years and I'm sick and tired of dealing with this crap. When will ESRI finally release solid software as opposed to worrying about getting the next big release out to drive sales? 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message Here's the error I get all the time or something similar to it with this one map document:

The instruction at "0x77d5bbcf" referenced memory at "0x00006a00". The memory cound not be "read".

This even happens before I run my code. No code is ran during startup or at any other time until a user presses a button on the interface. As I said this is just one instance of one problem. I've seen ArcMap crash at least 500 times in the last 6 months just using the non-customized, basic ArcMap.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author shawn deutch 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message I have gotten the exact same message as below at least twice this week and twice last week. Running ArcMap 8.3 and not having any customizations - just editing annotation - and it corrupts the .mxd

Here's the error I get all the time or something similar to it with this one map document:

The instruction at "0x77d5bbcf" referenced memory at "0x00006a00". The memory cound not be "read".

 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Violet Gray 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message I have to give you some support here because it seems that no one wants to admit that ArcGIS is unstable and poorly documented. An example in point, I find that it frequently unlinks itself to data sources and when I try to relink it "encounters and error" and crashes. I have been using ESRI products for nearly 15 years. I consider myself a part of the "loyal family", but I cannot tell a lie- if there were a better software system, and I had not already invested my entire career in this software I would think about going elsewhere. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Patty Rueger 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message Ron,

Perhaps your problem is related to your mxd. We find that most projects work jest fine.... We have had problems with only one or two. Why don't you try to create another project without your vb code and see if it crashes. Perhaps if you spent some of your pent up frustration on isolating the problem, you would solve it faster.

Obviously some of us in the user community ARE able to get work done! 
  Patty Rueger
MappingTechnology
Springville, Calif. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 21, 2004 
Message ^^^ Typical response. You're saying I should spend all my time trying to get around ESRI's failures. Why don't they just build quality software and the rest of us won't have to come up with all these workarounds? I would venture to say the if you were to add up all the man hours that ESRI users spend dealing with bugs in ESRI software and muliplied that by a meager $10 you'd be able to build an entirely new, and high quality GIS. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Coffman 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message I agree with the person who commented on isolating the problem. This was either a flame-bait posting or a real one. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. We're running the latest ArcMap 8.3 and experience no crashes like you describe.

1) What is your operating system
2) What hardware are you running this on
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ben Brown 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message I also have had similar problems. We, however, are just doing basic editing when it crashes. The absolute only way that it will not crash is if I do not have a single other program open. I don't know about anyone else, but cutting out the ability to multi-task easily during the course of the workday, does not make me very productive. Not only that, but having to fix the corrupt .mxd files from the crashes is getting old as well.

I am no veteren of this software, but it does not take a Nobel Prize winner to figure out this thing has problems. As always though, some have more than others and some do not experience them at all. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kirk Kuykendall 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message I suspect a lot of the instability comes from DLL conflicts with other programs. Seems to me that .NET is supposed to remedy many of these issues. However, my understanding is that ArcGIS will remain COM for a while (and support .Net through the interop).

Wouldn't it be possible to re-write ArcGIS to fully leverage .NET? Granted, it would be a lot of work, but since the object design is already in place the project could be done offshore. There would be a lot of other benefits too, like being able to serialize any arcobject as xml.

For example, a lot of folks miss being able to use notepad to edit the filepaths as they could with .apr files. If an .mxd file could be serialized as xml, then this would once again be possible.
 
  Kirk Kuykendall
AmberGIS Programming Services
San Antonio, TX
http://www.ambergis.com 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Randy McGregor 
Date Feb 07, 2004 
Message Well, I might as well jump in.

ArcGIS, I think, simply tries to do too much. Crashing is a regular occurance with us (ctrl-c seems to cause it, where as"save" in the mxd does not), and it seems to have something to do with other programs being open, as many users have said. Mutlitasking is extremely problematic, and I find myself twiddling my fingers because I am literally afraid to open mxd #2, while the current mxd is processing.

Also, printing map sheets from documents containing links to large SDE rasters causes very frequent crashing.

All in all, it's a very powerful software that needs to get stabilized in some areas. 
  Randy McGregor
Minneapolis, MN 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Jan 22, 2004 
Message 1) What is your operating system

Win2K SP3.

2) What hardware are you running this on

Dell Pentium III 933 MHz with 512 MB of RAM.


Hope this help but I'm very sure it has nothing to do with the hardware. As you see it meets the minimum requirements. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Daniel Jacobs 
Date Jan 23, 2004 
Message I also have been experiencing many crashes. I find that when I am editing a table ArcGis crashes when I try to save my edits. Even when I am not running anything else on my screen it just freezes when I try to save edits. I have been going through this all day and have finally given up. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Craig Williams 
Date Jan 23, 2004 
Message You should contact ESRI Technical Support and submit an incident or post the document here for evaluation. 
  Craig Williams
ESRI 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author David Barnes 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message Craig is right.
If you want to vent here, that's fine. Sometimes it feels good to get something off your chest.
But if you really want something to be done about it you should contact ESRI tech support in the U.S. or international distributors outside the U.S. with specific issues. Or ask for help from the user community here. Either way, the more specific you can be the more likely a resolution can be found. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message With all due respect to ESRI, who on the regional level have been very generous - nearly all of the dozen or so calls I have made to ESRI tech support result in the technician saying "that's been fixed in 9".
I do not have the luxury of waiting until version 9 is released in the fall.
Our Editor 8.3 will "generate an error and will be closed" when saving, usually during the first save of the day. Fortunately the edits are not lost.
This is Editor 8.3 straight out of the box, no add-ons, code or bells & whistles.
"Save edits early and often" is my motto. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Steven Korzekwa 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message As I was reading this, I just had to respond to the post about logging an incident with ESRI. I never bother to log incidents any more. The last time I did, we had a very severe problem with ArcMap and ArcMap Server/ArcIMS that was causing crashes on our production system. It was 3 weeks before I spoke with a tech support analyst about the issue and, to date, the issue is still unresolved. I have put in place several workarounds that minimize the damage of this particular defect, but I don't expect to get a full resolution of the issue. My point here is that the tech support system is clearly overloaded and often does not produce a solution to software issues. I have found the forums to be much more help than the tech support system. I can feel Ron's pain and cannot fault him for venting on this forum. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Lon Sharp 
Date Feb 02, 2004 
Message What kind of problems are you having? We had a problem with ArcMapServer/ArcIMS a while ago - about 2x daily all our ArcMap Image Services were crashing (but no others), forcing either a reboot of the server or deleting the .sez files & rebuilding all the map services. Turns out, were were out of disk space on the C:\ partition of the server. Once that was cleaned up, no problems.

BTW - Rather than log the problem with tech support via the website, I called them & got a response within 1 day - of course, they were never able to figure out the problem (we stumbled onto the solution ourselves), but I still get follow-up email making sure everything is OK. It's definately worth the long-distance call for such a quick call-back. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Steven Korzekwa 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message I do always place a call instead of e-mailing. I always get put in the queue but never get any response. Our specific problem is that the SDE_LOGFILE_DATA table frequently gets orphaned exclusive locks on it. We have cut down on the number by adding the registry key that limits the use of this table, but it doesn't seem to work on the ArcMap Spatial Servers. I have written some software that monitors this and notifies when it happens. This lets us fix it before it causes a problem, but we still do not have a solution. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Jason Thomas 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message I have had similar situations with technical support. We have a routemap IMS technical issue that should be simple (just trying to get an already working routemap app to work with a firewall in place), and it has dragged on for months, with most of the replies demonstrating that the information in our messages was ignored. Our problem is a little different, as RouteMap support has now been contracted out to another company, not ESRI. Regarding the whole crashing issue - I have never had a crash during a save. However I regularly have crashes from other problems (I just had one about 15 minutes ago). Usually it occurs during editing or symbology changes. It's very frustrating. The one improvement regarding stability with ArcGIS over Arcview 3.x is that at least the map documents don't get corrupted like the Arcview Project files did often. On the other hand ArcGIS often crashes without giving error messages. I often find it just 'disappears'. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Susan Wise-Eagle 
Date Feb 04, 2004 
Message We have several pc's in our office running ArcGIS 8.3 with very large data sets. What we have found is that those with only 512 mb of memory have alot of problems. When we upgrade to a minimum of 1gb of memory, we have alot fewer problems. Another thing we have to do us adjust the paging file size to 2x the memory. With this setup, I'm able to have multiple ArcMap projects open as well as Lotus Notes and other memory/cpu hungry programs. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Nils Babel 
Date Feb 12, 2004 
Message First of all I'll be the first to admit that ArcMap crashes a lot and unpredictably. However, even though your hardware specs meet the minimum requirements I don't think that excludes it as the source of the problem. We run Intel Xeon 2.8 Ghz processors with 1GB RAM and we still experience the occasional crash. My experience has been that performance, multitasking, and reliability is much lower on lesser machines. Especially pentium 3 machines. A couple of tips that might help you: make sure your minimum paging size is at least 1.5 times your physical memory (a secret tip from ESRI that helped our performance a lot). Also checkout FreeRAM XP Pro 1.4. It's a free application that helps free up memory (also helps with performance). I hope that helps. Maybe you should test your code/.MXDs on a different machine to evaluate performance.

Nils Babel
Fort Collins, CO 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: Hardware Upgrading makes ArcGIS Suck less! 
Author Rutheyi Thompson 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Nils and the others are correct...as I have just experienced myself. Let me add this voice to the fray to say that putting in more RAM and increasing the paging file makes a HUGE difference in performance, especially when editing or dealing with large datasets.

It's only been a few days that I have been working with these upgrades and I have had only ONE crash in three days where I used to have about 25 crashes per day.

It is definitively worth the effort and cost to upgrade the hardware/system specs. I can deal with an occassional crash in ArcGIS...hey, I've learned to deal with it from MS Office products.

Best to all those out there struggling with their GIS projects!

Graciously Yours,
Rutheyi
BOR-FCO 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Joanna Cooper 
Date Feb 18, 2004 
Message I have to sympathise with Ron.

I suffer the same crashing problem, have no VBA, and it seems to be when I save. It can go weeks without crashing, then crash 25 or 30 times in one day. We are not GIS experts - we merely work with GIS data - it is hard enough trying to convince the rest of the team that GIS is wonderful - if I tell them it's wonderful and it crashes half the time, they will lose all interst, which will be counterproductive for all concerned. It appears to happen on all 6 of the arcGIS machines in our office.

Having said that - I much prefer 8.3 to 3.3 - wouldn't go backwards for any money.

We have reported it to ESRI (first time in Feb 03) who have said that no-one else has reported similar problems!

We are working on isolating the problem but we don't have the resources to dedicate someone to it full time.

So far we have tried all the suggestions - deleting the mxt, changing the paging file, emptying the rasterproxies, turning off the thumbnails, checked the hardware, changing the location of the TEMP folder etc.

We still have to look at - whether it is connected to using a Novell network, whether it is a printer driver conflict, whether it's to do with the video drivers.

Any other suggestions gratefully accepted. We've been working on this for over a year now without success.

ESRI's approach is to tell us to isolate the problem. I had hoped that they would work with us and try to work it out from their end, but so far the support from them has been rather disappointing.

Apologies for the random placement of the reply and pessimistic tone, but it has got to the stage where we are seriously considering a switch to mapinfo. 
  Jo Cooper
GIS - Rights of Way
Warwickshire County Council 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Todd Thies 
Date Jan 23, 2004 
Message I just have to chime in. Not twenty minutes ago I had ArcMap crash on me. I lost about 3 hours worth of work, a lot of which is my fault for not saving edits as frequently as I should. Am I upset? Sure. Am I furious with ESRI? No, I'm not.
We don't run an ESRI shop. We work in Autodesk Map and Geomedia as well. We'll use whatever works best, no loyalty at all. The fact is, no one that I am aware of is even attempting to provide the functionality that ESRI is in the ArcView/ArcGIS suites. Sure ArcMap crashes. What am I going to do, build a Geodatabase in Map? Or perhaps try to code topology rules into Geomedia that I can get out of the box with ArcGIS?
I used to own a Kawasaki ZX-6R motorcycle. The fact is that it started rough on cold mornings, and wasn't always comfortable to ride. But it cornered well and was blazing fast.
I understand that you're upset, I'm not saying you shouldn't be. Just my two cents.

Todd Thies
Ayres Associates 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Brian Henley 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message I've certainly noticed a lot more bad language in the office since we changed over from 3.2 to 8.3 ..... 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Randy McGregor 
Date Feb 07, 2004 
Message That is EXTREMELY interesting. I have been much more frustrated using ArcMap than with ArcView, and at least one other person in our office has said the same thing (two out of three of our GIS staff).

The biggiest complaint for us is (besides frequent crashing) sllloooowwwwnnnneeeessss on several levels. Undeniably ArcMap can do way more than ArcView, but any activity that ArcView can do, it does considerably faster than ArcMap. Way faster.

This includes editing shapefiles and redrawing rasters. In fact, we did not use ArcMap for two years after purchasing it because the redraw for rasters was simply painful to try to watch.

ArcView does both of these things considerably faster than ArcMap. Since we often have short deadlines, these flaws cause a lot of frustration. 
  Randy McGregor
Minneapolis, MN 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Satisfy the Customers! 
Author Rutheyi Thompson 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message Not everyone has the option of using a different software package to workaround the problems with ArcGIS. And I too cannot be productive without having other applications open on my desktop - I cannot even do what I need to do in ArcMap without other open applications. Thus, some of us have no choice but to deal with what has been handed to us.

But I agree with Ron...ESRI needs to fix this major problem and fast. I may be the new engineer in my office, but I also am the only one doing this type of work and it is crucial to the billion dollar projects we work on. Thus, I have the leverage to pull the plug on ESRI software in our projects.

But I firmly believe that the functions and features in the ArcGIS programs are far superior to any other program I have tested. All I want is for ESRI to fix this, fix it fast and get the fix out free of charge to all their users...before we all jump ship.

Rutheyi Thompson
BOR-FCO
Farmington, NM 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Greg Gagliano 
Date Feb 02, 2004 
Message Todd, I agree with you. The direction ESRI is "Trying" to head in is far and above anyone else out there, The ease of customization, Microsoft standards, Open GIS sharing withg all environments via Web, SDE, etc. is the best thing going.

At the same time, however, it seems like they were trying to get the stuff out before it was tested or lacked some serious development standards and control over what was being developed.

If ESRI will just fix all of the bugs that exist instead of trying to add new functionality before this is completed, the new version of there software would be by far the most superior, well-written GIS package out there.
 
  Greg Gagliano
Senior GIS Software Developer
Lockheed Martin IT
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Brian MacSharry 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message Hi

My two cents worth. I've been using Arc GIS for the last 9 months and have had very few problems, bar the occasional unexplained crash- I'm principally just editing, designing layouts etc. Saying that other GIS people in my department look at me as if i have some magical powers as their ArcGIS replicates the original posters problems and can't understand how my ArcGIS doesn't crash constantly- they had constant problems and as a result don't use it at all. In my case i think the reason is the version of the software (i use ver 8.3), apparently when Ver 8 was launched the "required" memory and technical specs were a joke and it needed about twice what was recomended for it to even work. It seems that this has been solved to an extent by the later versions. So to sum up check what version you are using and have significantly more of everything you need, for the cost it should have been realtively fault free going out-shame. Hope that helps.

PS i personally love ArcGIS i recently had to use Arc View for a day and ended up in a cold sweat and came running back into the arms of my ArcMap system. 
  Brian MacSharry
MPSU 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Guy Precht 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message I had a number of crashes when I first started using ArcInfo. Version 8.2 would crash about ever 5 minutes or less. We eventualy determined the problem to be a third party security program that the IS department installed on all PC's to prevent employees from installing software and other things they shouldnt be. Once this security software was removed the crashed ended.

We experimented by installing ArcInfo on a PC with nothing else but windows installed and then one at a time installed each application that the typical desktop PC has and testing ArcInfo in between each installation. After about two days we finally determined the problem. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Sam Hottinger 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message I have had problems with ArcGIS crashing as well. I have seen several of the problems that were mentioned and I think I can give work arounds for two of them. When I had trouble with ArcGIS crashing when I was editing the tables it seemed to only do it when I had the table open and an abject selected when I saved. So now I make sure that I don't have an object selected if the attribute table is open when I save. Another problem involved editing files over our network. ArcGIS crashed continuously whenever I tried to edit any files over our network. So I copy all of the files onto my machine and edit them there. Most recently I had a problem with ArcGIS crashing whenever I tried to edit my realestate parcels layer. after spending an afternoon of frustration I finally figured out that a table that was joined to the layer was causing the crash. As soon as I removed all joins I was fine. As you can see I have found work arounds to all of these problems. However, I wasted a lot of time doing so and was very frustrated by each of them. I agree that ArcGIS does a lot of functions that no other software package will do, but I think it could be more stable. We use Autocad Map 2004 as well as ArcGIS and it has problems to, but nowhere near the amount that ArcGIS does. Hopefully the next version of ArcGIS will be more stable. If there were another software that could do the functions of ArcGIS I guess we would try it but I haven't seen one yet. Every software package has its bugs. You just have to try to work with what you get. At least ESRI has a halfway decent support site. Try Autodesk support sometime. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tessa Cassiers 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message I had the same problem, until a few weeks ago. I heard a rumour that if you open an mxd after you start up the program instead of double-clicking in Explorer, ArcView doesn't crash that often anymore. I couldn't believe it at first, it seemed too simple, but after crashing a few times more I gave it a try. And guess what... I think it's time to believe in ghosts again.
I don't know if my reaction is helpfull, I know it sounds really stupid. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Maynard Hansen 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message I've experienced the same problem of ArcMap crashing if I try to open a map from Windows explorer. If you open from within ArcMap, it is fine.

You old 3.x users may remember that you couldn't open up an .apr from explorer either, you had to do it from within ArcView. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ying Lin 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message ArcMap crashes everytime I click overview button after I installed VB.NET and .Net framework. Anybody experienced this problem?

The messages is as follow:
1. The instruction at "0X084e7d8b" referenced memory at "0X0000000". The memory could not be "read"

2. The instruction at "0X76ff4b5a" referenced memory at "0X00000004". The memory could not be "read"

I posted anther thread early this morning but found that people who are looking at this thread may have more experiences on ArcMap crashes.

ying 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author John Rohde 
Date Feb 01, 2004 
Message Which Version of VB.NET?
If 2002, do you have the latest patch for version 1.0 of the .Net Framework? If not, things could get very SLOW. 
  John Rohde
Dept for Environment & Heritage
South Australia 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ying Lin 
Date Feb 02, 2004 
Message It is VB.NET 2003. I cleaned up my harddrive and increased the page file. Now I get these message not that often but still can not get rid of them. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author sashi kumar 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message I too have this arcmap application error, "instruction at 0x000000000 refrenced memory at 0x00000000. The memory could not be read"
I have followed this thread and few more threads from this forum, but all in vain. My arc map won't even start.

My machine p4, 256 MB Ram, with page size 1500MB
windows 2000 server sp4.

The things i have done to rectify in vain:
1) remove arcgis desktop, install again. And again uninstall and install with clean command

2) remove sp4, install again desktop.

3) reduce page size

4) remove normal template

5) install mdac 2.6 over my current version and register Dao360.dll

6) reinstall sp4 and do register dao360.dll again

7) change the monitor setting to 256 colors

8) remove printers and install again with a default printer.

Even i wanted to remove my 3yr old server version o/s for a professional version, but from the forum i found it's no gurantee it works.

I am a user of GIS for last 10 years and arcinfo for 7 years. I have used sicad, caris, mapinfo, autocad, idrisi - but u know my last line to anyone who asks me what gis they should use - arcinfo because the fast learning curve to use this software and customizing functions which are unbeatable by any GIS software available in the market.

Unfortunately this bug, had shaken my faith and trust in this software. Still the bug has been not rectified, diagnosis and solution is so varying and off mark targeting the problem.

we are in a catch 22, windows needs upgrade because of virus threat and Arcgis may not work with somekind of update. For example, the mdac2.6 recommended widely in this forum, is a security threat according to microsoft, which should be replaced by a current mdac2.8.

If there are any other solution to work out this problem, please do suggest me.

regards
sashi

 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Brent Hoskisson 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message Sometimes third party software has nothing to do with it. In order to get ArcCatalog running on my PC, I had to remove 3D Analyst. Now if that is not proof of a problem, I don't know what is.

Good Luck
Brent 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ying Lin 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message But I am trying to move my development environment to .net. I need vb.net and .net framework for ArcMAP customization.

Anybody out there has problems after installing vb.net and .net framework? My application runs very well before the installation. The same app runs well on another pc without .net and vb.net

ying 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ying Lin 
Date Jan 27, 2004 
Message Well, I solve the problem. I reset the path of the ortho-photo, then save the project and reopen it. Now ArcMap doesn't crash upon click overview.

I don't know the reason of it. Anyway, it works.

ying 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Eric Hillmuth 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message You think 8.3 is unstable, you should have been here for 8.0. Sneeze, crash, reinstall and then again�.

But seriously, two suggestions:
1) 512 mb of memory, who are you kidding, try 1 gig+.

2) I suspect ESRI is using voodoo, not C++ or VB, in ArcMap to write out MXD files. As with any supernatural phenomena this process is difficult to reproduce. Think of an MXD with three layers somehow growing to 820 kb, voodoo clearly. So, ESRI has a tool to extract the VBA out of a corrupt MXD and create a fresh new MXD with your VBA but without all the supernatural baggage. I think its called ExtractVBA or something and it ships with the ArcGIS Development Kit. Use it, just because your code isn�t firing before the crash doesn�t meant the voodoo didn�t go astray at some point during your development process and corrupt your MXD.

Anyway, I share your frustration with the quality of the product. As a professional it is frustrating to work with broken tools every day. Snap On sells high quality hand tools to mechanics that use them every day. I�d like to use Snap On like tools to do my job but instead I�m stuck with the cheap ones you buy at the chain Auto Parts store for $9.95 and break the second time you use them. But I digress, hang in there.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ben Slater 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message I've had the same problems as the original poster off and on ever since we upgraded to ArcGIS 8.0.1 (we're now using 8.3). Whenever the crashes get frequent, or I'm unable to open a mxd file, the first thing I try is to disable ALL extensions. The Image Analyst from Leica seems to cause the most problems, but user made extensions such as XTools seem to cause instability as well. In general, I try to run ArcMap without any extensions loaded at all. The ESRI made extensions seem stable, but at this point I'm pretty paranoid about any extension.

The other thing to try when ArcMap crashes a lot is to delete your Normal.mxt file. I can't believe no one here has mentioned that yet. It's a general cure-all for ArcMap. I have to delete mine about once every 2 weeks. It sucks, because all my customizations go away, but at least I'm able to salvage my work that way. 
  Ben Slater
GIS Overlord
Wetland Studies and Solutions, Inc. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ying Lin 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message Well, after I solved the overview button problem, ArcMAP still crashes on me very often. I suspect it is because of insufficient memory. I Cleaned my HardDrive, then increased the page file. Every step gains me couple of more interactions with the application. Still crashes without warning!!!! I guess I need more RAM and a bigger harddrive.

All this happens after I installed VB.NET and the .NET framework. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author John Shelton 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message I have a 2 ghz P4 w/ a Gig. of RAM and ArcMap still crashes on me once/twice per day if I am doing a lot of work with it. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mara Woosley 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message I was crashing constantly at first too. In addition to working off your hard drive (ArcView does not like the network thing at all) save your edits very frequently - every couple of edits. I also stop editing and save the whole thing a lot. Just doing those two things have made a huge difference. I rarely crash at all now. Hopefully that statement didn't just upset the voodoo ;)
Good luck! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kirt Foster 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message ArcGIS rocks. Some 'shareware' I experimented with brought it down for a while, but I really don't think I should blame ESRI for that. Of course, some would.
While not practical, a standard machine running nothing but ESRI software runs great. By adding cheap software, or hardware for that matter, to my machine, I run a risk. But I accept the responsibility for that. Why wouldn't I? 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Art Ludwick 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message I can't believe that some of the posters are responding to the complaints by pointing out that their Arcmap works fine. We may both drive Fords but if one day my Ford explodes on me as I turn the ignition, don't go telling me that your ford runs fine so I must be at fault. Gee thanks.

ESRI is a fine company in many respects. But if you compare the stability of Arcmap with other complex applications like Adobe's, Macromedia's, etc., Arcmap clearly is not nearly as stable. My problem is that I cannot do a simple field calculation without the program crashing. I don't do any fancy VBA or tricky stuff. I'm your plain, basic user who mainly just makes maps. Tech support made me try a bunch of little fixes, none of which worked. They ended up saying the problem would be placed on a bug fix list for the future.

This is just one example of the instability and quirkyness of the program. Now there might be a valid reason why the program is less stable than your typical sophisticated application. But what ESRI should have done is warn customers about the instability before we spend thousands of dollars on the program OR spend more time developing the app.

Someone also commented that no other GIS application has as many features. I suspect that may be part of the reason for the instability. It seems like ESRI lopped in as many features as they could without making sure everything ran together smoothly. Some might feel that having the features now are worth the potential problems. Others of us want stability more. I really miss being able to do a simple field calculation. Point is ESRI should have informed the customers about the high rate of problems so we could make an educated purchase...and that, I think, is where ESRI failed.

And PLEASE don't respond to me by telling me that you are able to do field calculations just fine or ask me what system I am running. Thank you.

(by the way, I mean no offense to Ford. I was just using the most common car maker I could think of) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Todd Thies 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message Art, good comments. I was one who commented regarding ESRI's functionality. I stand by those comments, with the understanding that my machine doesn't bomb nearly as much as some poor souls. I think that Derek's response was right on the mark. If a software company embarks on something ambitious, the responsible thing to do is to make sure that safe (read more or less stable) alternatives are available and supported to a certain extent.
Todd 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Todd Thies 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message oops, sorry, it was Dan's response I was referring to.
Todd 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Greg Gagliano 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message You nailed it.

Everyone was driving Model T's. Really Reliable and gets you from point A to Point B. ESRI came along with a Ferrari, in ArcGIS. You can do much more and the features are a huge step up but the only problem is it might break down 12 times between Point A and B, And when you turn the radio on it just says "blah". (See attatched screenshot) 
  Greg Gagliano
Senior GIS Software Developer
Lockheed Martin IT
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Greg Gagliano 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message You nailed it.

Everyone was driving Model T's. Really Reliable and gets you from point A to Point B. ESRI came along with a Ferrari, in ArcGIS. You can do much more and the features are a huge step up but the only problem is it might break down 12 times between Point A and B, And when you turn the radio on it just says "blah". (See attatched screenshot) 
  Greg Gagliano
Senior GIS Software Developer
Lockheed Martin IT
 
  blah.gif (opens in new window)
 
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Steve Clement 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message My ford does field calculations just fine..... 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kirt Foster 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message All I meant to say is that some of this has to be blamed on what you've done to your Ford since you bought it. If it works fine on this machine and crashes on that one, I'd look at the machine. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Derek McNamara 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message I too am sometimes frustrated with ArcGIS although I found transferring data over to Geodatabase to help a lot.

But one thing in ESRI's defense is that they allow forums/threads such as this. A new/perspective ESRI customer might come to the ArcGIS forum and one of the first things they will see is ArcGIS Sucks!!!!! At least they are making a show of listening (and maybe they are listening, we should find out in future releases) and not hiding this stuff as it seems to me organizations like Microsoft do. So lets give the devil his due.

Derek 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Dan Patterson 
Date Jan 29, 2004 
Message You people may also be interested in this thread
http://forums.esri.com/Thread.asp?c=3&f=38&t=113260&mc=46 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Chris Gould 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message One thing that helped me cut down the number of crashes is turning off the "Save Thumbnail..." option. This cut down my crashes from "near constant driving me insane" to "when I least expect it, pretty annoying." Put the following code in your normal.mxt to do this automatically for every document, and see http://support.esri.com/index.cfm?fa=knowledgebase.techarticles.articleShow&d=24657 to find the utility to salvage your mxd after a crash:


-Chris Gould 
 
Option Explicit
Private Function MxDocument_NewDocument() As Boolean
    ' fires whenever a new document is created
    SetThumbnailSave False
    ' allow other newdocument() events to override
    MxDocument_NewDocument = False
End Function

Private Function MxDocument_OpenDocument() As Boolean
    ' fires whenever an existing document is opened
    SetThumbnailSave False
    ' allow other OpenDocument() events to override
    MxDocument_OpenDocument = False
End Function

Sub SetThumbnailSave(bSave As Boolean)
    Dim pDocumentInfo As IDocumentInfo
    Set pDocumentInfo = ThisDocument
    pDocumentInfo.SavePreview = bSave
End Sub

 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Joseph Weidinger 
Date Jan 30, 2004 
Message I agree with Chris Gould. The "save thumbnail" can really slow down the system. I would prefer that ESRI set the default to NOT save a thumbnail and the user would have to turn this function on if they really wanted it. Personally, I never want it, too much overhead. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ryan Cooper 
Date Feb 02, 2004 
Message I agree with Mr. Weidinger. The Save Thumbnail option is a big problem. Surely, ESRI must've realized this. But I have found that ArcMap crashes twice as much now that I have moved from ArcGIS 8.2 to ArcGIS 8.3. The Save Thumbnail option should default to being turned off. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Greg Gagliano 
Date Feb 02, 2004 
Message I agree 100%. I am a software developer but I never use VBA code so you cannot blame it on that thumbnail issue. I use VB 6 and there are always memory leak issues and YES I have cleaned up everything.

We have about 4 tech support tickets open with ESRI and none have come close to being answered. They range from raster issues to SDE constantly crashing.

See attached file for a great error message.

Try using the toolbox application to reproject a Dataset in an Access Personal Geodatabase when the Dataset has spaces in the name.

You should get an error message that says "blah". Yes, this production version of ArcGIS 8.3 has an error message that says "blah". Its kind of funny but it makes you wonder how this kind of stuff gets out of Beta versions and into production.
 
  Greg Gagliano
Senior GIS Software Developer
Lockheed Martin IT
 
  blah.jpg (opens in new window)
 
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ettiene Spykerman 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message

Oops!! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Jason Ebersole 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message The Save Thumbnail is defaulted to OFF in ArcGIS9 (according to the pre-release docs). 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kendall James 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message Phew, what an interesting read that has been! I have been using ESRI Products for 7 years now (not quite the veteran) and remember the Dr Watson errors of Av3x more than anything, oh along with Segmentation Violation. I haven't had nearly the amount of abd experiences with ArcGIS.

A while ago I was having a problem running some VB code I borrowed from the Help Files, like it wouldn't do anything when the previous day it had!

Try this, it worked for, no idea why but got his hint from a mate in Birmingham, UK. Do a search using windows explorer for every normal.mxd file on yuor local drive (or where ArcGIS is installed). Now delete all of them! Yip, delete with the shift key down so they bypass recycle bin and go straight out the door.

Then open ArcMap from Start>Programs>ArcGIS etc, this will create a new normal.mxd.

I'm not saying it'll solve your problems but solved mine when it started its crap. USe it don't use it.

Kendall

GIS Officer
Bracknell Forest BC
Berkshire
UK 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tom Price 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message I can beat ESRI support for you. Try this it is a much faster fix for your problems.

Write on a 8.5 by 11 inch peice of paper in really small letters this

A. It's your network!

B. It's your computer!

C. Your data is corrupt!

D. It's your code!

Put this piece of paper 10 feet away and whenever you think about calling ESRI tech support throw a dart at the paper, it will save you alot of time. Those are the only responces I've ever heard form ESRI.

Mine does not crash as much as it used to but I have learned some pretty cool workarounds.

A. Always stand on your left foot while working.

B. Work REAL Slow.

C. Only Use ESRI DATA because anything else is corrupt.

D. Even if your code is exactly word for word the same as thier code, use theirs it's "better".

E. Avoid doing anything really important.

F. Avoid deadlines.


With these methods my system is downright stable!

Another P4 2GHz W/1G of ram.

Edited to add...

Don't you think it is kind of funny that ALL the other programs I run no matter how large or complex don't crash. Only the ESRI one's do. Even our microsoft stuff is reliable.

One of our favorites here is the crash on PAN, only to be outdone by the crash on SAVE.

-tom 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Michael Nerup 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message Here is a better Support answer:

I reported a bug. The scale would creep and change in the layout view for no reason or rhyme.

Bug was fixed after 2 years and emails and phone calls to tech support and Jack (yes, that Jack).

While using AV 8.3 SP3 in layout view I noticed the scale creep and change for no apparent reason. Called tech support.

"Wasn't this 'product enhancement' regarding scale creep fixed?"

"Yep, they said."

" But it is still there?"

"Nope, that bug was fixed"

"But the problem is still there," said I.

"No that bug was fixed this is an identical bug that does the same thing," they replied.

"So it wasn't fixed?"

"Oh yes it was"

"But it is still broke"

I then tried to convince the tech support person that an identical bug that does the same thing is not a 'fix'. They never did understand.

What is the real problem.

1) Dealing with 'legacy bugs' and then finding more in the 'bells and whistles' in the new version. ESRI should fix the broken stuff rather then add more complex ****.

2)Getting Development to respond to the consumer and not to features that need years to make work right.

My two cents,
mikey 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Jeff Wang 
Date Feb 03, 2004 
Message ArcGIS8.3, .NET, etc. all are the latest version of their families. My experience is: never use the 1st release of a latest version software on important project unless you are very good at solving bugs, not mentioning using 2+ new versions together - no matter what OS, software or database they are. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tom Price 
Date Feb 04, 2004 
Message Jeff,

You make a good point that makes me think of some other sage advice. Never use an X.0 version. Case in point ArcGIS 8.0. Conventional wisdom would say that 9.0 will be just as scary if not worse. We will not be installing that one here.

The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

-t 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Laudon 
Date Feb 04, 2004 
Message hmmm...interesting post...For me, what would a day be like without a GPF in ArcMap? I've kind of got used to it...mind you, haven't seen the "Error in Visual Pascal library" error for a few days...

One thing that bugs me about bugs (ignore the pun)..is that ESRI will never consistently publish the release notes for their software...I would like to see a list of bugs fixed in each release, with a detailed description of each. Is that too much to ask? I mean they must have a bug tracking
database, right?

OK, that's my 2 cents..

Mark 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Couldnt agree more with all the negativity writen about ESRI and ArcMap, I have become a majorly dissatisfied customer. I've been using ESRI products since 1995. I was one of their most loyal fans/customers. then ArcMap came out. It didnt take very long for me to become not only totally frustrated with BASIC software functions (mainly plotting issues of images over 30MB, and all too frequent crashes), but also dissapointed in the major decline in quality for ESRI products i had been used to in the past. (arc/info workstation vs. ArcMap) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kathy Aha 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message I think Ron�s problem might be bad computer Karma ;o) This is my problem too. My coworker who has the same computer specs as me has no problems. Some days are better than others. If I talk real nice to my computer ArcMap crashes a lot less.

Just kidding here. I really like ESRI products, but I save and back-up a lot of my work. Nice thread.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Peter Krembs 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Where's it written that GIS is easy? If it were, there'd be no such thing as a GIS professional. Quit whining or find another line of work....

Cheers,
Peter

 
  Peter Krembs
GIS Analyst
US Army Corps of Engineers
peter.n.krembs@usace.army.mil 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Sam Hottinger 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message When GIS software becomes as easy to use as a word program there won't be any GIS professionals. We will be like the dataprocessors of the 80's. There will of course be geographers, surveyors, etc. but no GIS professionals.
Or not. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message quote by peter: "Where's it written that GIS is easy? If it were, there'd be no such thing as a GIS professional. Quit whining or find another line of work.... "
===========================================
in response to sam and peter's post:

Your quite obviously missing the whole point of this thread... No one is saying "make GIS easier"... We're simply saying "make it FUNCTIONAL... especially for these basic GIS tasks... ESPECIALLY for the price tag."
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Peter Krembs 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Mark

Guess what? That perfect piece of GIS software doesn't exist, and likely will not for quite some time. Do you really need a lecture on the fluidity of GIS technology? I hope you're smarter than that.
The ArcGIS software wasn't intended for casual use. It was intended to help GIS professionals/geographers/cartographers/surveyors do their jobs. People who map for a living. THESE are the people who HAVE the time to provide GIS solutions. NOT biologists, not architects, not soil scientists, etc.
ESRI isn't forcing anything upon anyone. Either use geodatabases or don't use them! 
  Peter Krembs
GIS Analyst
US Army Corps of Engineers
peter.n.krembs@usace.army.mil 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message I know there is no "flawless software". The question comes down to, "what amount of flaws are considered acceptable for the price one paid?"

I would really love to hear is your lecture on "the fluidity of GIS technology" (in another thread). Please enlighten me, because somehow "the fluidity of GIS technology" pertains to this thread?

Your missing the whole point of this post: the software has fatal flaws at a basic functioning level, 3+ years into its lifespan, and some 7+ revisions later...

For those of us who have to pay for this software, we reserve the right to have a gripe about software that is so critically flawed and express these concerns via Message Boards. For those who dont have to buy the software, I can understand why you might say "stop whining or change careers". Think if you had a company all of your own, and you bought this SW for $9k, and pay $3k a year in maintenance. Can you honestly say the same response "stop whining or change careers" if it was your personal money that was spent on this product?

If they are not forcing me to use the geodatabase... how come i can no longer edit coverages in 8.3 ArcMap? thats "forcing the community to move to GDB", thats using market domination to strongarm people to move to the GDB technology. The GDB is now the only valid topological dataset in ArcMap for editing. Thats forcing me to use ArcMap. When a client hands me a GeoDataBase, and i have to work with it... THATs forcing me to use ArcMap. When a government agency asks me to deliver a product in a GDB format, THATs forcing me to use ArcMap/GDB. There are other scenarios out there besides what you deal with every day. In certain types of business, we must cater to what the client asks for.

Some might say, "why is everyone whining about this software"... my question is, why isnt *everyone* bothered with these malfunctioning core operations expected of a GIS for the price paid? We all know that bugs are present in all software, but to what level are the bugs acceptable, and where does one say, "Wow, this is so bugged i cant do my daily job and meet deadlines, and in fact, its so bugged that i cant belive i paid $9,000 for this!" look at windows. Its filled with bugs. They SHIP IT OUT WITH KNOWN BUGS, but its usable. I can do my daily job on windows with decent uptime for a windows box. I cant say the same for ArcMap.

If you want a thread that does nothing but praise ESRI's software, START IT! and i'm sure you'll be the only one posting to it... 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ryan Cooper 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Mark...I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts on this board. Everyone on here has some very valid complaints about the ArcGIS software. However, there many government employees who use GIS professionally who are also unsatisfied with ArcGIS. Despite the fact that " when one works for the government, one could presume that they dont have to watch their $$ and sense...In the corporate world, we do," government GIS users would still like to be able to work on projects efficiently and without headaches. Furthermore, government employees who use GIS are subject to intense scrutiny in this age of increased outsourcing of GIS jobs to the private sector. Efficient use of time and resources and timely production of map products is more important than ever for our job security. Just wanted to put my two cents in and say that Corporate users aren't the only ones feeling the pains of using problematic software.

Ryan Cooper
USDA - Natural Resources Conservation Service 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message Understood, and valid constructive statements. What i was trying to illustrate (so poorly done) is that when one doesnt pay for the product "out of their own pocket", it is understandable how an apathetic attitude of "stop whining or change careers" can be present.

In contrast, when you DO pay for the product out of pocket at $30k+ and $10k a year maint, you do become extremely monitarily and emotionally attached, and concerned at a personal/corporate level, wishing resolution of deadline hindering bugs, so you can perform your daily duties to keep profitability up, and client deadlines met.

Its a matter of perspective, sure users are dissatisfied if they paid for it or not, however, there is an additionaly attachment/concern when one DOES pay out of their pocket for a product. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Art Ludwick 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message The whining is not for gis to be easier. We aren't asking for buffers to be easier to do or programming to get easier. We are asking that when we do try a buffer, that the program not disappear from our screen for no reason. There is a difference.

Asking for an application to be stable is not asking for a lot. While some problems are inevitable, the rate of problems are very high for Arc 8. When a software package is released, a certain amount of stability is expected if the word 'beta' is not a part of that release. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author brian kelly 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Ditto
I cant make a template...they crash on save
Scale bars always move... always
legend fonts change
editting is combersome and limited
.pdf export is horrible and Adobe PDF Writer or Distiller wont work from ArcMap, the only program i have ever encountered for this to happen (it simply does not create output)
From the name you would think this software made maps well.....
We upgraded to ArcMap from 3.3 to make better maps faster.. that i can say has not happened 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author John Roberts 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Well! Quite a thread. I remember betaing Arc8.0 back in like 1999 and it was pretty buggy then. I agree that 8.3 seems to be a step backwards, but hey, now we have topology, dynseg, - all sorts of goodies.

As a programmer, I guess I feel a bit sorry for the poor souls at ESRI. They have embarked on a process that involves more gotchas, more fixes, more communication, than many many IT projects. Everyone has heard the statistic - "more lines of code than Windows NT" - many, many times, and sure, it gets old.

Remember people, you can always move back to Solaris and Sparc. You can always dust off your AML and your "dusty strings" and keep playing that old dirge. Innovation involves risk, and yes, we are the guinea pigs. Oink.

2 cents.

John Roberts MCSE
Software Development Manager
Michael Baker Corporation
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Scott Moore 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Great thread. I have come to realize that ArcGIS users are pretty much just beta testers. And sometimes, I wish I could get a more verbose error than a memory location error. I would say that we need more updates as bugs get fixed, but I have to manage about 100 installs of ArcMap. Maybe ESRI could take a look at doing something similar to Microsoft automatic critical update notification. 
  W. Scott Moore
GIS Database Analyst
City of Chandler, AZ 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author sashi kumar 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Hi All,
The forum is getting heated up! hope we are not getting personal. :). I too had problem see my posting earlier.

"http://forums.esri.com/Thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=115953#335698"

We are not seeming to be debate the Microsofts buggy patches - (who posts patches for patches and for patches...and so on) Arcobjects is a great step move towards making arcgis more accessible to user tweakings. But it looks like a step backwards in that to depend more on microsoft.

I am in academics, having more time!? i did a format of my o/s!! and reinstalled it. Reinstalled the arcgis, and checked if it's working. Then proceeded to carefully read all descriptions of Microsoft security updates and installed them. keeping away from doubtful ones especially Microsoft .Net frame work. So far so good.

Before formating I had complete .Net architecutre in my machine for Intel Visual Fortran (another software depending more and more on microsoft). I don't know if this had caused arcgis to 'malfunction' earlier. But i am twiddling my hands, if i should install the .net again or not. If it works it works! if not, having already once bitten to format, i will do it again.

I am crazy, i want to work in ArcGiS, and i want to work without bugs, I want Arcgis to work like i used to work in arcinfo 7.2 on a SGI - a solid performance. Will people at ESRI will take notice!!

regards

Sashi
Research student
Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore, India 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Joseph Weidinger 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Hello all,

I do not appreciate the personal attacks towards individuals on this thread. I also dislike the gross generalizations about the intelligence of government workers and their increasingly mythical "job security".

I agree that the software needs work. I think we all agree on that point, to varying degrees. I don't think there is some rift in GIS professionals due to the current software. This discussion thread is a biased subset of opinions with which to make such an assumption. In fact, we are probably unified in our desire to see it work properly!

I would prefer to see the discussion move back towards specific problems and fixes. Also, I believe that a calm, rational approach to the many problems stated here and on the other threads will best bring about the results and changes we all desperately wish to see for ArcGIS.

I am glad we have the forums, for I have found many useful suggestions and fixes though this format. A full-featured GIS software seems to me to be one of the most challenging and complex software sets one can attempt to write. So I wish ESRI luck on fixing their buggy software so we can all enjoy our jobs with a minimum of frustration! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message I'm of the opinion that that statement is inappropriate for this thread topic, totally unreasonable, extremely non-constructive based upon the topic of this thread, and shows apathy towards the daily struggles thousands+ users are experiencing and expressing it in this forum. I'm of the opinon, that no one should have to change careers because a software company revamps their product with so many bugs, that productivity has dropped since moving from Arc/Plot and ArcView 3.2 to ArcMap.

The job security comments were aimed to illustrate a point: Some person(s) want GIS NOT to get any easier (dont remove bugs?)... BECAUSE as they had stated, then anyone can do GIS, and then GIS professionals wont be needed.(?!?) Honestly, there are too many aspects to EVER worry about general public using GIS. In fact we should encourage that, because that allows current users to move on to the "higher end" of gis using GIS analysis, and tools like SDE, ArcIMS, building customized applications, implementing new technology, etc.

I digressed poorly tho, as emotional response is the worst kind and I appologize to you and any other readers for any mis-interpreted and mis-directed comments. They were specifically for the person(s) i addressed in the post...who then further provoked me by saying that he is hoping i'm smart enough not to need a lecture in "fluidity of GIS" (which again, has nothing to do with this thread which is about posting problems that make one scream out daily, the subject of this thread.) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Guyn2 GIS 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Phew!!!

Blah, blah, blah.

It sounds like a Friday at the conference in this post. I think all of you are right, we should go back to the days of command line, procedural code, mini computers, those were the days, GOOD TIMES!!!
Everyone that loves Unix, raise your hand (Wow, did everyone raise their hand). I guess, we all could try Open Source. GeoServer is pretty powerful, or MapServer or even Christine GIS, these all blow away ArcGIS.
These are definitely all possibilities to replace that M$ lackey, esri. For those of you that hate M$, you can create your own code for use on linux or Unix in ArcGIS Engine at the 9x release. Will that make you feel better, probably not, go ahead put your head on my shoulder, It is ok, you can keep crying, if that makes you feel better. Cheers to Peter Krembs, they should probably retire or get out of GIS. I find that most people that complain about new software are backward thinking people. Hmmm, maybe we can solve this spatially. These people just love to complain. These people count down the days to when they retire. I also remember the days of beta at 8.0 and there have been significant improvements to this software. The software has bugs, I agree with King Whiner Ron Vincent and Prince Whiner Mark Seibel but it would be interesting to me to see how many of the people in this thread just hate ArcMap like people don't like Bush. I wonder if they "The Complainers" use Unix already and just want to pick on software to be heard. Basically, I propose that these are the same Windows haters, or the same SQL Server haters or the same Novell lovers or the same Sun lovers or even the same Oracle lovers.

Oh, I meant to put this under, "Completely Satisfied with ArcMap". And yes, GIS Rocks. It kicks ass. ArcGIS Server Rocks, too.


Disclaimer: For those that are not "Forum cry babies" in this thread, this does not apply to you. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message I hope they fix the basic stuff soon... because i'm not sure how much longer I can take this frustration level. Particularly because i learned on Arc/Info Workstation and ArcView 3.x which were solid production-line mapping software, and got used to a solid GIS application and began to have these high expectations for ESRI. Then I started using ArcMap, and still find myself astounded at the fact that this is the same company that has been doing this for over 30 years... 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ettiene Spykerman 
Date Feb 05, 2004 
Message Hi GISers!

Firstly - Mark, I second all your complaints regarding ArcGIS. We pay a hell of alot of $$ to get the work done (while also enjoying it) BUT we have the right to complain! ArcGIS 9.X is almost shipping while all the bugs in ArcGIS 8.X are not fixed yet....this is REALLY something to be concerned about...

Let's not get personal BUT try to help ESRI to solve THEIR problems by posting relevant info on this thread. It IS their problem because if this keeps going on the market for ESRI products is going to fade away because alternative better software will be replacing it.

I've been using ArcGIS for the past 2 years and had alot of "ArcMap.exe's", losing alot of production hours ($$)...ArcSDE "falling down"... while using the Tracing utility, ArcMap sometimes just dissapear??!!

Peter, I think we have a valid reason for whinning, don't you? How's all the bugs going to be fixed if we don't tell ESRI about this??...."Cause - effect".

Let's bring a bit of politics into this....pressure (postings) and more pressure will maybe have a positive effect.

Let's focus on the problem and not use this forum as a "chatroom"??!!...

Regards to all of you,
Ettiene Spykerman

 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message God bless ESRI for leaving this spiteful thread running. I'll save the text from day to day just in case it gets yanked.

I don't see much crashing anymore, but I agree with most of the negative comments- even most of Mark's.

The main problem with ArcMap seems to be its runaway feature bloat. Right-click on the toolbar to see what I mean.

My guess is that ESRI watched specialist competitors gain market share in specific industries, and they decided that their product had to be nearly all things to all potential customers.

Also, in order to claim that ArcGIS can really replace ARC/INFO, they try to pack every ARC/INFO command into a button or menu somewhere (All except for TOPOGRID- I want my TOPOGRID back!)
So each of us pays for features we'll never use, but might still cause us problems, while certain core functions remain unreliable.

P.S. Joseph- if you want "to see the discussion move back towards specific problems and fixes," rather than the primal scream therapy that's going on, try a thread with a title other than "ArcGIS sucks!!!!!!" Just an idea. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message
Matt: Well stated & astute observation!

the runaway bloat feature couldnt be more true. I did what Matt suggested: clicked on my menu, and saw immediately what was implied there... that is *serious* bloat indeed, the context menu that popped up ran off my 21" monitor!

They are *trying* to replace arc/info workstation with ArcMap. Well, apparently users were so dissatisfied that ESRI said they would bring the command line BACK and embed it into ArcGIS for 9.0. Thats an indication that their legacy software still has serious needs and wants. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Troy Schmidt 
Date Feb 06, 2004 
Message Just to through my two cents to the fire. I don't have much of any problems from ArcGIS products. I keep my machine up to date with ALL the latest patches and updates (this includes Microsoft ones). Since doing all that crashing doesn't seem to be an issue. But I do believe the biggest problem with the ArcGIS suite is the fact that it is a memory HOG!! I really hope this is fixed with 9.0. Also, the full support of automation! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Paul Bata 
Date Feb 08, 2004 
Message I have to agree that ArcMap tends to crash quite often. I work in an edit session for most of the day, and sometimes it does crash when you hit the save. However, most of my crashed come when cutting a parcel in two. After i restart, anytime I try to modify that particular parcel, it will crash again. My suggestion is to try to save often. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Steven Scruggs 
Date Feb 09, 2004 
Message I'm otherwise happy with ArcGIS but one problem that has aggrevated me to no end it the program's tendency to hijack the PC's resources. What I mean by that is if ArcGIS locks up, using Task Manager to shut it down is no easy task. It usually requires multiple tries and once it finally does shut down, my PC will be extremely slow and performing rather strangely until I restart. I have used some heavy programs such as CorelDraw and AutoCad but ArcGIS takes control of the PC in a way I have never experienced. Unfortunately, I'm not a programmer so I can't begin to understand why it is so prone to lockups and why it won't shut down like a normal program when it does.
Mostly wanted to rant! Thanks for listening,
Steve 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message This gentleman was chastized for his behavior in the AcrView 3 forum. Enough said. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Steven - that was not directed at you, but regarded the Feb 5 "blah" poster. Seems my comments were placed after yours in the stack here. No offense intended. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Matthew Barlow 
Date Feb 09, 2004 
Message Version 8.1 used to crash on me all the time when saving.... I found that it was because the "save thumbnail with map" option was checked. I think they have fixed this in the newer revs (I haven't seen this in 8.2 or 8.3), but you might check it out.

Go to: File - Map Properties and uncheck "save thumbnail image with map". Then try saving.

Probably not your problem, but you never know. This will increase the speed at which mxds save, too. (I never use the thumbnail anyway.)

Good Luck! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Karla Streharsky 
Date Feb 09, 2004 
Message Interesting thread. Many fine points have been made.

I ended up at your thread because I have been trying to perform a simple task that should have taken me 20 minutes tops...selecting certain lines, copying them to a shapefile, merging them, and saving. Only 10-50 arcs at a time. No biggie, right? All's well until I hit the Save or Save Edits button. It's crashed 8 times in the last 2.5 hours each time trying to save a few changes. I've recreated the shp from scratch; I've created the mxd from scratch. Only 2 layers in the mxd, the source and destination layers. Crashes no matter what. Turned off the thumbnail option. Still crashes. Argh. I am a government employee and that has no affect on whether or not my project is getting done or what projects are not getting done as I am fighting to save my 20 minute "quick" project some 2-3 hours latter. Frustration is frustration. Saving .shp files is as basic as it gets. It SHOULD work.

RE: SCALE AND GRAPHICS MOVING -- The scale bars and north arrows that move constantly, that is a known bug. There is a technical article titled "Bug: the north arrow and other graphic elements shift positions in the layout". The macros helped! No more migration. Now if they can just fix that in 9.0 and when will it come out? I'm sick of that answer, "Oh, that's fixed in 9.0". No help to me now.

I just love the advice from Tom, Michael, and Kathy and will be trying them all! Thanks for the laughs; I really needed them.

All I want to do is SAVE without crashing. :-( Anyone have any other things for me to try? Thanks in advance!
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Abdul Rauf 
Date Feb 09, 2004 
Message Hi,

Since the software is extremely buggy we keep trying workarounds. As said before, this might work for you or might not.

Try to reduce the paging file size. Keep reducing to the windows recommended level until your application starts to "save".

Strange solution but it helped us.


Regards,

Abdul Rauf

GIS/RS Analyst
Atallah Systems Ltd
Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author William Everingham 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message software crashes to much during editing. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! Crashes 
Author Darren Eddlemon 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message I'm sure this has been mentioned somewhere but have you been cleaning out your temp files? This has helped me.
C:\temp\rasterproxies
C:\Documents and Settings\loginname\Local Settings\Temp
etc. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! Crashes 
Author Karla Streharsky 
Date Feb 10, 2004 
Message I had been cleaning out my local settings/temp, but not the rasterproxies. Thank you for the advice. I'll try anything. Today it only crashed twice. Not bad compared to yesterday's 13 in 2 hours.

I also am going to try the reduced page file size in case that too is the problem. Thank you all for the help! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Dracos Tavern 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message
I have to agree.

We are a group developers delivering the same functionality
across Geomedia, MapInfo and Arcgis.
Most of our users have Arcgis and more are going that way.
Why is this so when ArcGis is such a truly appalling application ?
It just never delivers when the pressure is on. Geomedia and MapInfo
developers achieve in minutes what takes days and weeks using ArcMap.


Draco 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Kathy Aha 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message Great Thread! Thanks for all the tips. Here, I�ve compile them. Any I missed?

Things that might help with ArcGIS:

- Load ArcMap 1st, then open your projects (rather than open mxd�s from Explorer)
- Delete normal.mxd (Search your local hard drive for every normal.mxd)
- Turn off �Save Thumbnail� under Map Properties
- Clean out c\:temp/rasterproxies and
c:\Documents and Settings\loginname\LocalSettings\temp
- Get the most recent patches and updates from ESRI
- Get the most recent patches and updates from Microsoft
- Upgrade to a minimum of 1 GB of memory if you only have 512 MB
- Adjust paging file size to 2 times the memory
- Reduce the paging file size.
- Remove third party security software
- Unselect all objects and records before saving
- Remove all joins and relates before saving
- Copy your data to edit to your local drive rather than a network drive
- Change monitor settings to 256 colors
- Reset the paths of orthophotos, then save the project and reopen it.
- Disable all extensions.
- Defrag your local hard drive
- Convert your data to geodatabase
- Use the toolbox to reproject your dataset in an Access Personal Geodatabase when there are spaces in the name. (?? Don�t created databases with spaces)
- Recreate shape file
- Recreate mxd
- Get macro on thread called �Bug: the north arrow and other graphic elements shift positions in the layout�
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: tips 
Author David Barnes 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message just a slight correction: It's normal.mxt (not mxd) :-) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: tips 
Author Ed Dempsey 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message I've actually taken it upon myself to write an .exe that will delete normal.mxt. That way I can put a shortcut on my task bar and not have to navigate to the hole in which normal is buried.

Probably not a good sign of solid software. 
  Ed Dempsey
Perot Systems Government Services 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: tips 
Author Kathy Aha 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message Thanks David! I'm glad someone looked over at my list ;o) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: tips 
Author Bert Durgan 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message Hi:

We have all the bells and whistles here too. We have tried to use av8.3 with 3d and regular mapping as well. We CRASH, we end up going back to AV3.2 for both. We (2 GIS Staff) got Quadro4 980 XGL 128 mb video cards, 1 Gg of Ram, HP xw8000 workstations (Spent a few dollars, justifying that we need this equipment to run ArcGIS. It still doesn't help, we have tried pagefile sys....blah, blah, blah. Now at budget time, they are questioning our GIS budget and why do we need these souped up machines. Well, apparently we don't cause they still crash. How do you explain that to management. They are considering tossing the whole ESRI mess and consult out the headache.

Thanks a lot. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: tips 
Author Bert Durgan 
Date Feb 11, 2004 
Message Oops.

Wrong place to reply. First time user.

Sorry 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tessa Cassiers 
Date Feb 12, 2004 
Message Thanks for the list Kathy. I think it 's very useful. The thread has become so long that it isn't clear anymore.

Tessa. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Kathy - you missed one.
* obtain a live chicken, a sharp knife and a Voodoo priest 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Diego Mathis 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Everyone who has seen the Object Diagramm, the one with all Details and every Extensions,
has seen that it isn't very friendly for our brain..
And the Programmers at ESRI have now the cruccial work, to make it faster, and to find the bugs, and to improve the tools that exist, and implement new things..
They do this quick, logically a bit dirty..
At least I think this..

It is normall that is so buggy, It consist of so many things and a bunch of them are brand NEW!
But I also think ESRI should provide a Changelog..


Look at the cars you can buy, if aren't lucky your has also some buggy software, and the best is, every time when you bring it to the service,they upload the newest drivers(for free until today) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message The object model diagram is a good point to mention- the developers at ESRI need to decide whether they are going to build a GIS development platform or a desktop GIS suite. I discussed this with my ESRI rep, who (to the company's credit) called me in regard to this thread. Now that I know they are listening, here's my take:

Way too much money and effort seems to have gone into making ArcGIS customizable. The ability to code, from VB objects, a replacement for ArcMap is neat, but not anything I, the end user, care about. For instance, I don't care what the code looks like for multiple layouts- I just want the functionality to work, straight out of the box.

As far as I'm concerned, ESRI ought to market one product to the resellers/developers- ArcObjects or maybe ArcGIS with all of the COM libraries enabled- and another suite to the GIS end users. Then the development team would stop believing that "developer samples" are an appropriate way to deliver functionality to core customers, while the overhead and cost of all the COM customizability* would hopefully be shifted to the resellers who actually use all those bells and whistles. Meanwhile, there'd be some intermediate-level scripting environment that power users (not developers) can use for automating processes (Python, Ruby, whatever- I'd be happy with LOGO if it meant I didn't have to write another Dim statement).

-Matt

*I'm assuming there is substantial overhead- maybe I'm wrong, and the flexibility is just a byproduct of the COM environment. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Craig Williams 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message The flexibility is just a byproduct of the COM environment.

ArcGIS 9.0 will feature developer oriented products (see http://www.esri.com/software/arcgis/arcgis90.html ) for more details. 
  Craig Williams
ESRI 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Thanks for clarifying the question of additional overhead. And as for ArcGIS 9, those "developer-oriented" products are fine with me, as long as

1) I don't pay for them in my ArcGIS license
and
2) I get a a scripting environment that's less fine-grained and object-oriented than VBA.

Apparently the long-term move is towards what I described in my post above- i.e., separate products for developers and end users.

But ArcGIS 9 only gets part of the way there. From what I can tell, the scripting capabilities will be part of 9, but only for geoprocessing. What I want is the ability to script whichever process I choose, including map production, without iterating through ten interfaces for every declared variable.

The developers get Engine and Server to play with, while folks like myself are still wishing for AML and Avenue.


Thanks, by the way, for watching this forum. If there is another thread underway that is more specifically relevant to automation, I'll switch to that and leave this one alone.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Gordon Deane 
Date Feb 19, 2004 
Message ArcObjects seems to be trying to solve three completely different problems:

1. Allow custom extensions to ArcGIS (feature classes, renderers, tools, etc.)
(Very cool, something ESRI's competitors haven't a patch on. This seems to work well, though more documentation is sorely needed - the draft online books are a good start! Also, it's still too easy to crash ArcMap within an extension without doing anything obviously stupid)

2. To make the map control embeddable in other COM apps. I haven't tried this, but it sounds like it works, and 9.0 will try to make it easier.

3. Allowing VBA scripting of ArcMap and ArcCatalog. Eg. custom toolbar and menubars for non-GIS specialists to slurp data from a database and produce some nice simple thematic maps.

Points 1 and 3 have been addressed, not by designing an API appropriate to any of the above problems, but by waving the COM wand and exposing all the internals of ArcMap, ArcCatalog etc.

I'm coming from MapInfo, where MapBasic is a ghastly language (in a Computer Science sense) but designed exactly and only to solve point (3). By comparison, ArcObjects VBA is *incredibly* painful. It takes 20 lines of QI casts and cryptic drill-down to do simple things that MapBasic could do in 5 lines - and you can record the first 3 by example in the GUI!

Essentially what I want is a layer of functions like my code sample below.

Designing a layer of stuff that makes your life acceptably simple is critical to getting anything productive done, but it's very hard when you're new to the product. Has anyone done this? Are there any commercial libraries over ArcObjects VBA to make it less agonisingly low-level?

As a huge Python fan, I hate they way that in VBA you constantly have to cast everything, and the way every enumeration/list/array has a slightly different interface that makes you care about the internal design. Also the cack-handed error handling (not entirely ESRI's fault, COM is basically deficient here). Real languages have had structured exception handling for nearly a decade. Why do I get "AUtomation error -2583783273247982479282" from a seemingly harmless operation? (Adding a field name that does not exist to a chart?) Where the hell is the lookup table for these cryptic codes? No wonder ArcGIS itself keeps popping up boxes saying "The operation could not be completed". The GUI code has no idea either!


So why can't we have a Python scripting framework to solve scripting task (3), and leave VBA for the masochistic? Yes, I know we don't have IDispatch so there would need to be a bunch of custom Python work. I'd have a go if I wasn't so busy...

I'm just waiting for all the VB users who haven't yet been converted to the Python Way ;-) to run into Python in Arc 9 and ask exactly that question.
 
 
' The sort of thing I would like
pFillsym = CreateSolidFillSymbol(NoColor(), Outline:=CreateSimpleLine(RGB(20,30,40), Width:=0.5))

'I can't believe there are 20 lines of VBA code
' required to implement this!
'
' Compare MapBasic (approx)
mybrush = MakeBrush(0,0,0)
myoutline = MakePen(0.5,2,RGB(10,20,30))

' Also exception handling
try {
 some stuff
} except FileError {
 handle that
} else { 'anything other error
}
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Neil Clemmons 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message I am afraid Matt that you are indeed wrong. There's no overhead or cost directly related to the fact that ArcGIS is customizable. The ArcGIS applications (ArcMap, ArcCatalog, ArcScene, ArcGlobe, etc) were created using a library of object classes called ArcObjects. ArcObjects is a COM+ component library made up of hundreds of low-level objects that perform a wide variety of tasks. Up until Microsoft's .NET initiative, COM+ was the latest and greatest paradigm in the development world. ESRI's decision to use COM+ was a natural one. Now, of course, it took a lot of time, effort, and money to create the ArcObjects library. But, now that it's there, allowing others to use it is nothing extra. Think of it like a city's road system. It costs a good deal of money to build it, but it takes nothing to allow you to use it. Sure there are maintenance costs, but that goes with everything. But the fact remains - you don't save the city money by walking to work.

In your post, you referred to "VB objects". That's also a misconception. Visual Basic is a COM compliant language, therefore usable to create ArcObjects applications. This is also true of VC++, Delphi, or any other COM compliant language. Scripting languages, such as Avenue and AML are not COM compliant, making it impossible to use them to write ArcObjects code. Now, I'd have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure that scripting support will be added at version 9. Python was one of the languages mentioned. Again, I'm not 100% certain of that, but I do believe I read that somewhere. Plus, Python is currently being updated to be a .NET compliant language. When Python.NET becomes available, you can use it just like you would VB to program with ArcObjects. Or at least you should be able to because I think all .NET languages are COM compliant by definition (might be wrong on that).

ArcObjects are the building blocks that were used to create all of the ArcGIS applications. The fact that they are available to developers opens up an almost infinite number of possibilities. ArcGIS can be customized to do almost anything. If you don't like the way something works, you can write your own and do it your way. That's one of the things I do everyday. I write tools for our clients that make their everyday tasks simpler. Instead of having to go through 15 mouse clicks and 5 menus in order to do something in ArcMap, I put a button on their toolbar that turns the entire process into a single button click. The point is, you don't have to do everything in VB. Use whatever COM compliant language you want. The almost limitless customization possibilites for ArcGIS, plus the ability to just create your own applications altogether, it one of the software's strong points. The only drawback is that now you actually have to be a programmer to do it. And tht's good too. I like job security :) 
  Neil Clemmons
Geographic Information Services, Inc.
Birmingham, AL
http://www.gis-services.com 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Matt Frost 
Date Feb 13, 2004 
Message Neil-
Thanks for clarifying my mistakes, and for confirming my aversion to the new architecture.

You describe better than I can why the 8.x architecture has been such a source of frustration to me:
"I write tools for our clients that make their everyday tasks simpler. Instead of having to go through 15 mouse clicks and 5 menus in order to do something in ArcMap, I put a button on their toolbar that turns the entire process into a single button click. The point is, you don't have to do everything in VB. Use whatever COM compliant language you want. The almost limitless customization possibilites for ArcGIS, plus the ability to just create your own applications altogether, it one of the software's strong points. The only drawback is that now you actually have to be a programmer to do it. And that's good too. I like job security :) "

The strong points you cite are strong points for a developer like yourself, but not for someone like me who just needs a scripting language to automate tasks here and there. Naturally, if I had someone like you or Ianko at my disposal, I'd never miss Avenue.

Thanks for all the help on the other user forums, by the way. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Charles Fried 
Date Feb 18, 2004 
Message While ArcGIS may have issues, it is still better than all the alternatives.

The instability problem may be related to Windows. I have observed that it is good practice to re-load the operating system with Windows about once a year. The registry gets funky, or odd DLLs accumulate, which can result in random and non-repeatable crashes.

In addition it appears that Arc9 may address at least some of the scripting issues with Python and AML. Perhaps we should resever judgement on this until we have had a chance to have a look at 9.0 
  Charles Fried
BP, Houston
Petroleum User Group Chairman
281-366-3445 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Palabert Palabert 
Date Feb 18, 2004 
Message Good for programmers, like the redoubtable Mr. Clemmons. However, you have to admit that, for a GIS professional, the new paradigm is much more expensive, time-wise ( to pour through all of those damnable Arc-Objects Documentation) & money-wise ( to hire the 'consultants' and the 'developers' when you can't get anything done ). Anyway, I'm sure the job security isn't as concrete as we all like to think - 'They' can subcontract out to India and other points abroad, as well!! Anyway, thanks Mr. Clemmons for all of your informative posts! 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Adam Sow 
Date Feb 16, 2004 
Message Let's see:

Thousands of GIS users' livelihoods (including mine!) hinge on ESRI's software. The average GIS developer/analyst makes (maybe) $50,000. Maybe a bit more in California and NY/New England. Jack Dangermond is worth how-many-millions? He can't invest a little more into his own product and produce a more stable package?

That's just not right.

Adam 
  ADAM SOW
University of Vermont
Burlington, VT  
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Coen Nengerman 
Date Feb 17, 2004 
Message i think it is a hardware problem. I never have these problems such as described above.

I think ArcGIS is much better than ArcView, b/c I had more problems with ArcView than I have with ArcGIS

gr. Coen Nengerman 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author S K 
Date Feb 17, 2004 
Message Cheap GIS software that also has Photoshop-type functions for layouts and such.....doesn't crash either. However, you really have to dump all the ESRI-esque GIS terminology and structure from your brain in order to use it.

http://www.manifold.net 
  I am not a GIS expert, I just play one on TV. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Greg Stangler 
Date Feb 20, 2004 
Message Wow, I'm a newbie...how new? Installation completed at 9:00 AM, 20 Feb 2004.

I must say this thread is a real confidence builder!

I'm just going to go back to work, and make believe that I never saw this posting...

Greg
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! (if you let it) 
Author Tim Minter 
Date Feb 20, 2004 
Message Wow, what am I doing right? ESRI's ArcGIS product family lets me (just me, mind you) support 70 staff with ArcGIS installations for a medium-sized municipality. Sure, the software has flaws, but I just read the instructions, review the Knowledge Base info, train the users and off we go. How hard can it be? You who experience multiple crashes per day obviously have some underlying platform and/or data integrity problems which need to be addressed. There are quite a few helpful articles in the Knowledge Base which I've used to address the issues I've had.

I've been using ESRI's products since 1992, with heavy data development and QA/QC experience. I'm not experiencing the frequency of crashes many of you have noted, and I do some relatively hefty work.

As for ESRI's technical support crew, I've gotta tell you that I've been a moron on more than one occasion. Actually, I just requested support for something last week. Then before they had a chance to respond (an hour or two), I found the answer in the documentation. But for some reason I was still grumpy about it. Whose failure was that? Mine. Fair enough. Of course, I've submitted requests that tech support staff didn't even read before responding to me and asking me questions that I had answered in the original request. We're all just people trying with varying degrees of success to do our thing. Give tech support the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to help you. ...And, take it upon yourself to do something I always remind myself to do, if sometimes a little too late - RTFM.

Hey Ron, are you the guy who used to be "New World Mapping?" Also, didn't you used to work for ESRI briefly? Seems like I remember your name.

Cheers all. It's just not that bad.

Tim Minter
GIS Coordinator
City of Asheville, NC

-if the only trick you learn is to always learn new tricks, then when you're an old dawg you'll be ok. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Wayne Thogmartin 
Date Feb 25, 2004 
Message Every couple months I for some reason lose my ability to load ArcDocs. I toss the corrupted ArcInfo.gid file as directed and clear temporary folders as suggested by others and sometimes that's a sufficient solution, sometimes it is not.

Further, ArcGIS will bomb frequently when conducting complex grid calculations, especially if cell size is small. Why this is, I am completely unclear. I have 4 Gb of RAM and a very fast processor, so why it gags is a mystery to me.

In the end, I do a lot of my data processing in ArcView and use ArcGIS for some grid calculations and for map production. Pretty lame, huh? ArcGIS isn't as easy to use as my trusty ole' ArcView. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author James Harding 
Date Feb 25, 2004 
Message I don't want to necessarily stand up for ESRI but I don't agree that the comments in this thread are typical of the majority of ArcGIS users.

When I bought my software, it came with an unconditional 30 day money back guarantee.

This thread seems to indicate that the software is totally unstable and crashes so frequently that it is unusable.

If this were so, why is it that hundreds of thousands of users have continued to buy it and thousands of companies partnering with ESRI are promoting it.

Over 10,000 of them (users) were in San Diego last year alone.

On my machine, Acrobat Reader and Internet Explorer crash far more often than ArcGIS which, for me, only does so once a week at the most. (I use ArcGIS every day)

Sounds like a flame based on sour grapes to me.

I found a Ron Vincent at http://www.geog.utah.edu/alumni/?Alumnus=81 who looks like he could be an ex ESRI employee who probably left on bad terms.

I'm not saying ESRI makes the best software on earth but I don't think there would be ANY OTHER QUESTIONS on these forums if the software was as bad as you make out.

Why are people asking how to do advanced things with it ? Their version obviously doesn't crash every time they try to use it.

Let's keep these conversations constructive and realistic!

J. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Coffman 
Date Feb 25, 2004 
Message "I found a Ron Vincent at http://www.geog.utah.edu/alumni/?Alumnus=81 who looks like he could be an ex ESRI employee who probably left on bad terms."

haha what a great find 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Feb 25, 2004 
Message From Jame Harding:

"who looks like he could be an ex ESRI employee who probably left on bad terms. "

What a completely unprofessional and unfounded statement to make. Just because I've discoverd issues with ESRI's software (that have been confirmed by lots of other users) doesn't mean I have any ill feelings towards ESRI. I completely enjoyed my time at ESRI and have fond memories of that time. I hope you feel better for flaming me. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author G. Venkata Vijay Kumar 
Date Feb 25, 2004 
Message Hi Ron, you said these.
----ESRI should be ashamed of itself for releasing such worthless software
----I completely enjoyed my time at ESRI and have fond memories of that time

Arent they contradictory.

Agreed the software has flaws, but ultimately it comes down to Necessity Vs Availability. If there is a better software, no one is stopping you. Just go ahead.

The number of crashes you have mentioned (around 500 in 6 months) stuff is a bit exaggerated. You Should have gone for a change in the hardware or had a complete re-format of your hard disk. Even i did experience crashes but they happen when i used some advanced options, but that doesnt mean the software is worthless.
 
  Vijay Kumar
Trigeo Image Systems
Hyderabad
India 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Joanna Cooper 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message 500 crashes in 6 months does not sound too exaggerated to me - I can have 20 crashes in one day, just trying to save an mxd. Of course, some days I get no crashes at all which is why I have put up with it for over 13 months.

I'm just an end user working in local government - the ESRI products are standard in our department, and arcGIS is linked to our database (arcView 3.0 won't link), and so we don't have much of a choice when it comes to changing over. I don't try to do anything complicated as I don't know how.

We've tried to isolate the problem, but the GIS is just a part of the job that I do, so I can't devote all my time to testing. The crashes happen on four of our PCs (all of slightly different specs) and on PCs in other buildings as well, and we've tried clean reinstalls and all the so-called fixes from the knowledge base and on the discussion forum.

ESRI have suggested lots of things but don't seem too helpful as all they tell us is that they can't replicate the problem. Everything they have suggested is along the lines of "try this and see if it helps".

It's reassuring to me that others are having the problem - when I first reported it to ESRI (in the UK) in Feb 2003, they said no one else had had that problem.

In the meantime we've strippped most of the software off one PC and are testing. So far so good, although a PC with hardly any software and only one b/w printer is of little use with ArcGIS :-)

I await arcGIS 9.0 - hoping it's a bit more stable for us.
 
  Jo Cooper
GIS - Rights of Way
Warwickshire County Council 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Steven Korzekwa 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message I'm disappointed that there have been some posts recently making insinuations about Ron Vincent, the originator of this thread. I don't know Ron, but I would like to thank him for starting this thread. Whether you think his arguments have merit or not, this thread has prompted some real action on the part of ESRI. I have received calls from higher level ESRI managers who are taking this very seriously. I am now seeing action taken to help resolve some major problems we have with our software that have languished for months. I won't know if we will have real solutions for some time, but I applaud the initial response that ESRI has given. I will keep this list updated on our progress as I think that ESRI should receive credit when they do something right as well as criticism when they do something wrong.

This quote from a previous posting also troubles me:

"Agreed the software has flaws, but ultimately it comes down to Necessity Vs Availability. If there is a better software, no one is stopping you. Just go ahead."

This is the sort of attitude that results in inferior software for no real reason. I agree that the ESRI product suite has no rival that can provide the same breadth of functionality. However, I don't believe that it should be ESRI's goal to develop software that performs just well enough to keep their customer base from abandoning the years of effort and millions of dollars they have invested in their current GIS architecture. I don't think that ESRI believes this either. The kind of (mostly constructive) criticism in threads like this that can give ESRI feedback on what they need to do to produce a product they can be proud to sell, not just a product that is just good enough to not lose market share.

I am partially responsible for keeping a "mission critical" system up and running and that is a difficult thing to do if you are constantly battling reliability issues with software. In my organization, serious doubts are being voiced about the ability of the ESRI platform to support a 24/7 system. After recent contacts with ESRI, I am cautiously optimistic that they will be able to answer these concerns, but I don't know that I would be in the same position if this post had not been started. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ron Vincent 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message Mr. Korzekwa,

You are correct in saying that ESRI has gotten the message and things are happening in a positive manner. That was the intention of this thread.

I want to thank ESRI for such as response. Good job.

Ron Vincent 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Mark Seibel 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message And I would like to thank you, Ron, for starting such a controversial thread, where other users with similar frustrations and dissapointments can feel that they are not alone. I tip my "red hat" to you sir... 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Brian Henley 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message I'm with you, Jo. Down in Devon we too don't have any choice but to use ArcGIS, no matter how much frustration it causes us end users. The fact that what I was easily doing with ArcView 3.2 now takes ages and causes me to swear at the software is of no concern to the IT department.

We 'upgraded' to Micro$oft XP and ArcMap at the same time about 9 months ago - the two together were just about enough to start me looking for another line of employment - anything that didn't involve GIS (and that stupid puppy dog). A lot of my work is creating & editing shapefiles, etc - pretty straightforward stuff, and the 'quirky' nature of the ArcMap editing almost has me pulling out what little remains of my hair - you know, the way the current task keeps changing so that you think you're going to move a vertex and you end up dragging the whole polygon - things like that? It almost makes the regular occurrences of 'ArcMap has encountered a problem and needs to close' a welcome relief.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Karla Streharsky 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message We too have had the problem of moving the entire polygon/arc when you think you are moving only one vertex. Unfortunately the undo option doesn't take you back just that one step of the un-move, it takes you back to BEFORE editing the vertices. This is troubling when you've moved a number of vertices to their correct locations and then lose it all in one undo. Has anyone found something that will help keep me from moving the entity instead of a vertex? We're doing a lot of editing so this happens too often for us.

BTW, my ESRI rep has e-mailed and called me regarding this thread. They are indeed listening and hopefully will continue to try to help solve the simpler issues, like saving without crashing. :-) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author G. Venkata Vijay Kumar 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message Hi, i would definitely like to see ESRI improve their software and i am always for constructive criticism. I cant forget the days when i had to convince the client about the flaws in the software.

----ESRI should be ashamed of itself for releasing such worthless software----

Was this any bit constructive.

----This is the sort of attitude that results in inferior software for no real reason.----
(Steven Korzekwa - my sincere apologies for sounding negative and personal. Hope i clarified)
when i really feel its not worth it, i will stop using it. 
  Vijay Kumar
Trigeo Image Systems
Hyderabad
India 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Ettiene Spykerman 
Date Feb 26, 2004 
Message Hi GISers!

First things first, let's stop quoting lines that's not relevant - this will prevent this thread from getting personal & messy....

I would like to second Steven Korzekwa - I believe this thread has a positive impact on both the clients as well as ESRI...for the clients, better software & clientservice, for ESRI, better software credibility & client relationships. It is with no doubt that this kind of global communication between fellow ArcGIS users (grievences, extensions, ext,..)give ESRI the advantage in the GIS software community!!

Although ArcGIS has it's flaws, I don't think that I'll give my clients any other software option but ArcGIS. AV3.X is with no doubt excellent software, but I know that it also took a few years to sort out it's bugs?!! The same will happen to ArcGIS - let's give it time to "evolve" like any other software package...("...success will come to those who have patience....").

We found that ArcGIS gave problems when used in conjunction with certain hardware types...why?...I don't know, but hopefully this will be sorted out in the near future (AV9.X?!!!!)

Anyway, happy GISing & enjoy the weekend!!

Ettiene Spykerman
NETGroup GeoSystems
Cape Town
South Africa 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Peter Krembs 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message You folks want to know something...? If your ArcGIS crashes 500x in 6 months, there is something very, very, very wrong with YOU or your CPU. It's not the software.

I don't think anyone would be sending ESRI boatloads of $$$ each year if that scenario was commonplace. Does ArcGIS crash? Sure it does. No more so than any other Microsoft product, I've found.

Some (ok, most) of the complaints in this thread are completely off-base. No, I'm not an ESRI apologist...I'm just telling it like it is. There are SOME of us out there who know what we're doing...we do this all day every day to bring GIS solutions to our workplace. 
  Peter Krembs
GIS Analyst
US Army Corps of Engineers
peter.n.krembs@usace.army.mil 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Charles Fried 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message I think it says a lot for ESRI's good spirit that they even let this thread exist, that they haven't taken it personally (at least I hope they haven't) in spite of some of the things that have been said here. I understand that Jack has read the thread, and asked his staff to contact each and every poster personally to query about issues or offer assistance if possible (my rep contacted me). So I think that they have taken this in a constructive manner. I hope so anyway. I can't even imagine other vendors tolerating something like this.

No the software is not perfect, but every other software I have ever used has been cursed at one point or another. What will make it better is working together with them, with constructive comments and specific requests.

Ron, and everyone else that problems with frequent crashes, I would recommend trying it on a "fresh" Windows machine. While I understand that it is not realistic to expect that you won't run any other software on your PC, Windows can get twisted up with registry and DLL problems to produce instability. So add the other applications back one by one perhaps you can isolate the conflict, or perhaps the problem won't return (for awhile anyway) as the new installs will have updated DLLs and so on. Over time, however, with installs, un-installs, patches, and the like, the instability is likely to return, and then it will be time to repeat the "exorcism" once again. I hope this helps, give it a try and let us know, that would be a helpful bit of information. 
  Charles Fried
BP, Houston
Petroleum User Group Chairman
281-366-3445 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Tift Tax GIS 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message If Windows itself is part of many of the problems posted here, why does ESRI no longer have Macintosh versions of its major software? They dropped Mac after ArcView 3.1, as I remember. As one who uses both Macintosh and Windows, I lament the world's slavish devotion to one operating system. To mis-quote the movie - "We don't need no steenking Registry."
8^) 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author Eric Hillmuth 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message Well, if Jack is reading, I�d like to see three things come out of this:

1)ArcGIS is less than rock solid. Its slow, buggy and unpredictable. ESRI needs to place more resources on assuring functionality of the existing feature set. I�m sure there is lots of pressure from some accounts to add this or that feature but this should not come at the cost of the core product. So� Lets have improved error handling. Greg Gagliano highlighted this issue very well with the �blah� error message post. If a developer wrote blah into an error handler I�m guessing it means they didn�t get around to writing the rest of the handler, fix this and all the other error handlers. Additionally, I vote for having a larger number of existing bugs resolved before adding new functionality. I can do without most of the stuff coming in 9 but how long am I going to have to wait to get resolution to the nomadic scale bar and north arrow issue, somebody pointed it out on this forum already. (You know, if you save a document with a layout then open it again often the north arrow and scale bar shift, like they found greener pastures a few points away.) Use the cash you get from annual maintained to fix stuff like this before rolling out something just a few customers are pushing for.

2)All configuration files should be text/human readable, maybe even XML. By configuration files I mean all MXDs, MXTs, LYRs, calculations expressions, styles and label expressions. Its an administrative headache to only be able to get at these via ArcGIS and Visual Basic. Granted, you will loose the ability to store VBA code in MXDs and MXTs but I don�t think it�s a big loss to not have code and layer/application configuration live together. Especially considering the drawbacks, after all that�s what started this thread in the first place

3)ESRI should have a two tiered maintenance model. The lower cost option could be upgrades only and the higher cost option could be upgrades plus phone support. ESRI maintenance seems significantly higher than the �industry standard� fifteen to twenty percent of original purchase price. In my experience most resolvable issues can be quickly handled via the online forums. I�d gladly give up the ability to make that long distance call for a drop in annual maintenance.

In general I think ArcGIS has great potential. ArcMap in particular is becoming a really useful piece of software. Its come a long way from 8.0 to 8.3 but it has a ways to go yet. ESRI took ArcView from a desktop paperweight in 2.x to something pretty useful in 3.x. I look forward to the same with ArcGIS but the sooner the better.

That�s my two cents anyway, thanks for listening err reading.
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: ArcGIS sucks!!!!!! 
Author sashi kumar 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message Hi All,
It's become the longest running thread in the Forums, with lot of intresting comments and what to even get the attention of all Top people at ESRI. Ok my vendor contacted me, fired up by the "higher" people in his office regarding my earlier posting in this forum.

In retrospect, I think ESRI has given in lot of freedom, flexibility in handling thier software to us users. All users, have the freedom to dabble in installation and fixing up the problems with thier own solutions (with all documentations available). And we get frustrated, when the things don't turn up like we wanted.

Just for an thought / (exercise problem) try installing any of the big software's like Oracle, without much prior knowledge. We will know what's it to install a Software, let alone fix any problems in it.

Considering all this, ArcGIS still remains a People's software for GIS. (cost - no questions!) And we only Wish it to remain a leader of innovations and user friendliness for years to come. 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: 1) "nomadic" graphics 2) crashes 
Author Karla Streharsky 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message Eric, have you visited the Technical Article in the Knowledge Base? It's article 25845 named "Bug: The north arrow and other graphic elements shift positions in the layout". It provides two scripts, one that saves the element geometry that you should run after you put the pieces where you want them, and another script that restores the element geometry which you should run (either automatically called by your startup or manually after opening your mxd) that restores the pieces to their rightful places. Hopefully ESRI has this fixed in 9.0, but until then it makes fixing the nomadic elements less painful.

My original question posted in this thread pertained to ArcMap crashing each time I tried to edit a simple shapefile and hit "Save Edits" or "Save" the .mxd. A few postings have suggested that everyone should quit complaining about imperfections with more complex tasks, e.g. scripts and other programming issues. Although this might be a good point, please remember that some of us experienced, daily users were/are complaining about simple tasks not working, i.e. my problem of it crashing after ONE simple edit or the problem of the nomadic elements. These are not advanced/complex issues and should have no relation to hardware or the experience level of the user. I can go for days/weeks/months using the software 8 hours a day everyday without a single problem and then out of nowhere the issue pops up again. So don't think it can't happen to you just because you are an advanced user. Perhaps the users who do more programming aren't using the "basic" functions of ArcMap as often as the cartographers, etc. and therefore don't encounter the problems? My point is, please don't think that these problems only happen to "clueless" or inexperienced users.

Both my ESRI rep and ESRI instructor have contacted me about this thread and my issues and are trying to help, for which I am grateful. I must give ESRI and Jack credit for letting this thread continue and hopefully for taking our rantings for what they are, frustration and/or stress-relief and/or pleas for help (in most cases). I wish the thread had a different name/topic though. ArcGIS doesn't suck, it just has its moments. It's at these moments when many of us seek help and post these messages. ESRI, thanks for listening! I agree with Eric's suggestion to ESRI to focus heavily on solving all the known bugs. Although we use and appreciate the advanced bells and whistles, if I can't produce on demand a simple map quickly and in a reasonable and predictable amount of time (and be able to save it and have my graphics stay put), then the bells and whistles are insignificant at that point.

Strangely enough, the save problem disappeared for almost 3 weeks but returned with a vengeance this morning. ArcMap crashed 3 times in the first 20 minutes. I'm trying all the suggestions AGAIN and will be working with the ESRI folks to resolve them. Unfortunately to help them help me, I would need to keep track of every step I perform so they can try to replicate it. The idea of documenting each and every mouse click is overwhelming, so I'm trying all the other tricks first.

Is there any way to record my actions like when you record a macro?

(I truly apologize for the length of this posting!)
 
   
• Top Print Reply    
Subject Re: 1) "nomadic" graphics 2) crashes 
Author Tom Price 
Date Feb 27, 2004 
Message I too have been contacted by ESRI for my comments but I am withholding judgement as they try to solve a simple problem for me. One of many problems I've encountered and so far I've got the old "we can't reproduce that problem". The techy they put on my case seems like a good one for a change though.

One trick I have used with the wandering north arrow for those of you besides us with this problem is to just convert it to a graphic. It mostly stays put after that. Same with the scale bar, but that limits you to making a map at one scale.

If you are listening Mr. Dangermond these are things I would like to see.

1)Drop all work on 9.0 to fix 8.3. You all will probably learn a lot from this that will make 9.0 even better. I would be much more optimistic about 9.0 if I heard it was coming out this time next year.

2)Provide patches that actually fix problems.
Provide seperate highly organized and detailed online documentation for bugs and patched bugs. Have a seperate search engine for this.

3)Make ArcPad work with Geodatabases.

4)Make all geoprocessing functions more robust. That is what GIS is all about anyways right.

5)Find a file structure and stick with it across ALL ESRI platforms. Make that file structure robust and well implemented. Coverages to shapefiles to geodatabases OH MY! Anno issues anybody? Three words... Long Range Planning!

6)Extend and Expand beta testing for longer periods and over more disciplines. And then do it some more.

7)Realize that the more packages you role out the more you have to support. The more we can hose up. Narrow your scope, focus on a few things and do them very well.

8)Change your support structure to team problem solving. There is no way one person can really solve most of these problems, is there?

9)Provide better SQL and database funtionality. I mean, what does a guy have to do to do a Group By around here. And yes I am familiar with dissolve!

10)Ban the words "I can't replicate that here" from your support group. Well, if the data is hosed, It was hosed with ESRI software. A little fairy doesn't go around sprinkling "don't work like you are supposed to" dust on everybodys data.

I may sound negative but my intent is to make things better for you and us so please forgive me if my tone comes of as something other than that.

My comments are my own and don't neccesarily reflect the views of my organization.

Good Luck with all this

Your Friend in GIS
-tom 
   
Copyright © ESRI. Send your comments to: Site Administrator. Web Site Privacy Policy