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That is sedition, pure and simple. Can't the British see that?

Has anyone posted this over at Democratic Underground? It would be interesting to the relative percentages of 'amen'/'right on' -vs.-'it's all America's fault' -vs.- 'that is a bad thing' responses.

There are a lot of very active and vocal folk here in the USA that do not seem to understand of deep this sort of sentiment runs in the Muslem world.

Yes, but sedition is not in itself a crime. There is also the possibility that these guys are what I'd call "gun store commandos," talking a big talk but not walking the walk.

Still a great reason to do the one thing that can be done to keep terrorists out; enforce the borders.

I've heard their is way too much border to control. Looking at it on a map doesn't do it justice but it does kinda' bring home the largeness of the problem.

I had an idea though. If we really want to enforce it why not have every American serve a stint each year on the border? Training with firearms included.

I think that would help in three ways.

First, it would supply enough manpower to the borders. This is the main problem now.

Second, every American would see it was their duty to protect the country. There wouldn't be any of this armchair quarterback stuff going on.

Third, it would become obvious how serious the problem is.

Robert, way to make false parallels, bro!

Your "gun store commandos" jab really chaps me; I hope you're not one of those historically-challenged anti-gun nutcakes that believe only the military should use and enjoy firearms? That's patently un-American and anti-constitutional.

George Washington, that famous gun store commando, said that “Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference -- they deserve a place of honor with all that's good.”

Anti-gun nuts notwithstanding, to keep and bear arms is a mainstay of American citizenship and civil order.

Cusicus, I think you're oversensitive (I'm tempted to use a stronger word.) I read his comment as referring to people who do *nothing* but stand around the gun store and talk about how tough they are. He specifically referred to "not walking the walk."

Just because someone makes reference to some people who are in favor of guns in a negative way, it does not mean he is tyring to take yours from you. Gun owners and gun rights advocates, like everyone, have their phonies and nutcases among them.

Robert,

You equate bomb-lobbing Muslims with those who enjoy firearms and shooting. Even if you grant that perhaps 1% of the American shooting sports community are toothless slob Rambos that wear camoflage to the target range, your tasteless comment besmirches the other 99% of us.

Marksmanship is a necessary CIVILIAN skill to deter domestic tyranny (see 2nd Amendment) but it's also an immensely enjoyable sport for men, women, and kids. I think it's as funny to listen to urbanites blithering about firearms, as it is to see how they react in the presence of a live cow (they usually run).

I'm not talking about hunting, but sport shooting. The anti-gun nuts say "they don't need military-style weapons or handguns; they only need hunting guns" are ignorant of American history and the intent of our 2nd Amendment.

As long as millions of Americans can shoot accurately and well (not for food, but to defend their homes against thieves and murderers) we will insure domestic tranquility. Just in case Muslim bomb-throwers like Abu, Abdul, and Abu decide to play in America as they're playing in Europe.

Cusicus, you missed it. "Gun store commandos" are the guys who talk talk talk but rarely shoot or (God forbid) act on their beliefs.

George Washington doesn't exactly fit this definition.

Myself? I need a new gun cabinet because my new .50 (black powder, not Browning, sigh) won't fit in there. For my birthday, my wife sent me to the range with her Kimber and 100 rounds.

I'm a gun nut. Hopefully not a "gun shop commando," though. :^)

Regardless of your position on guns, I think the point is that many people see muslim terrorists as some crazies from the middle east who live in caves and have a lifestyle completely foreign to what's considered civilized. (see blog below).

Instead, we are given a picture of professionals in England (perhaps with neat accents and the speaking ability of Tony Blair...again, see blog below) who apparently share the same worldview as those who gladly strap on some dynamite and blow up a bus despite the fact that children and otherwise innocent civilians are on board.

While these guys may be extremists in the "civilized" world, it makes me wonder if more muslims here and in europe feel the same way but know that outwardly expressing or acting on these feelings would be dangerous for them.

It also makes me wonder, if this is in fact true, why the muslim community in the U.S. has not been more vocal (or really vocal at all) in denouncing terrorism in the name of allah if they do not condone it.

Jane, you're a very bright and articulate sister; I've followed all your posts. On this one, it's obvious you have not taken part in the last decade's defense against the anti-gun lobby, which seeks to disarm American citizens. I know you THINK it's all rather benign, because you haven't seen the things they publish and produce.

This 'over sensitivity' of which you accuse me (not to use a stronger word) is simply wisdom; we don't intend to wait as long as people did to begin countering the pro-aborts and pro-sodomy crowd that's now dismantling denominations and moving into the government schools in force.

Jane, don't be naive (I'm tempted to use a stronger word!) ;o)

Robert, sorry; I did bristle, I guess.

If yu want a .50, forget the BMG; look at Alexander Arms' new Beowulf; it's a snap-in upper for the AR-15 but makes a BIG hole. Small recoil, small case. It's a car-stopper that I hope our military will adopt for that purpose instead of hauling 40 pound Barretts around.

Alexander Arms is also now shipping the 6.5 Grendel; I have one on order. Can't wait to get it! The Army Marksmanship Unit will be looking at it at Blackwater in a couple of weeks; finally a caliber that can snap onto the M-16 and replace both the 5.56 and the 7.62 all the way out to 1,000 yards; save our military millions of dollars and give our guys a lot better tool than the mouse gun.

Oops! No more gun talk! Gun are evil! Guns are the great satan, Abdul! Pass the mustard!

Cusicus, I'm not saying the opposition doesn't exist.

I'm saying it's not reasonable for you to assume from what Robert said, that he meant anything like what you accused him of.

Even in the face of real danger, we still have to be charitable, slow to speak, and making sure we're not tilting at windmills.

In fact, Robert's last post proves that he's not, in fact, what you assumed.

Hey folks, we've digressed from the topic of the Islamic immigrants enjoying our freedom and talking about (and/or working to) destroy our countries and freedoms.

It wasn't too long ago that I heard a local Islamic immigrant boast that they (the Islamic fundamentalists) would exploit the constitutional freedoms and culture to destroy the "Great Satan." At first I dismissed his comment. Then I started to listen to the liberal media's defense of all that is sacred in Islam, on one hand and then to deride and the "harsh treatment" of the prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay, the "racial profiling" at airports, the Patriot Act and so many other legitimate safeguards employed to protect the US from another attack. It soon became clear that the terrorists do know their enemy and have a good grasp of how they can exploit not only our constitutional protections, but our own media to defeat us.

For a true Islamic fundamentalist, it is probably easy enough to lie under oath (after all Allah knows his heart and all deceit/lies are justified in jihad) and to become a US citizen to have full protection under the law. We Americans are, as you recall, infidels and deserve only death. So what is a lie when he can be protected while plotting to kill thousands of infidels.

We have a dilemma: protecting our Constitutional freedoms (1st Amendment among others) and protecting our country, its people, economy, our way of life.

I know that, sis, as you see from my last post. I think yours and mine 'crossed in the mail'.

But speaking of enjoying freedom and feeding on hatred, I think the greenies are onto something this week. Marc Morano, a Senior Staff Writer for CNSNews.com has an article today headlined “Diaperless Babies Seen as Earth-Friendly Solution”.

The piece opens: “As environmentalists celebrate the 34th annual Earth Day, some in the green movement are now advocating "diaper-free" babies to help save the planet… many environmentalists are taking a page from tribal cultures and seeking to eliminate the use of diapers altogether. The green movement is now promoting diaperless babies as a "retro, cutting-edge, environmentally friendly scheme" to mothers throughout the industrialized world.

“There is a way to have a baby and NOT use diapers,” says one website advocating diaperless babies. Parents are urged to get in tune with their infant's body signals and hold babies over toilets, buckets and shrubbery or any other convenient receptacle when nature calls. One advocate suggests bringing a "tight-lidded bucket" along to serve as a waste receptacle when mothers take their babies out in public.”

As Adam Beckham would say, I did not make this up. But on second thought, Abu...DON'T pass the mustard!

Sorry Didymus, I know that seemed off topic but it actually fits the whole barbarism and culture thing, this latest idea of the environmental terrorists. I can just see Abdul's look when little "great satan" American babies begin to 'drop bombs' on the shrubbery in public!

Allah help us!

Oh, don't be so racist. Islam is the religion of peace.

Repeat after me...islam is the religion of peace.

And again...islam is the religion of peace.

SAY IT.

Oh, and let's not forget, jihad is an INTERNAL struggle.

Robert, if you want to read about the Grendel, fans have created a www.65grendel.com site that posts all kinds of pix, a movie clip, comparative ballistics chart (the cartridge seems to defy physics). I can't think of a more efficient 'homeland defense' tool for every American home (except of course, in big cities and anti-gun-nutland).

Cusicus--I understood your comments, gun ownership as I read the 2nd amendment seems more than a right. . . it is a mandate to accept the responsibility to protect our families from thugs and our country from tyranny.

I'll check out the Grendel. Is Charlton Heston your President? No need to answer that, you already have{;-)

...as yet another testosterone parade passes by...

The article is a classic of yellow journalism. The accusations are all by innuendo and the facts are buried.

"*For all its inflammatory rhetoric, al-Muhajiroun has never been linked to actual violence*. Yet, with the discovery last month of half-a-tonne of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient used in the Bali and Turkey terror attacks - and with the arrest of eight young British Muslims in London and the South-East, including six in Luton, extremist groups such as *al-Muhajiroun are under the spotlight like never before*...

Or does the group also perform a more *sinister* function, *sucking in alienated young men* and brainwashing the more impressionable into becoming future suicide bombers?

*Although none of the arrested Muslims - aged 17 to 32 - appear to be current al-Muhajiroun members*, *rumours have circulated of informal links* to the group.

And I find it extremely unlikely that this group of educated men shared their identity and their fantasies with a man named Cohen.

David,

Yes, I KNOW jihad is an internal struggle; that is why I so fear the "great satan" white diaperless babies overcoming their internal struggles, and dropping bombs on the shrubbery!

Environmentalism is a religion of peace...say it with me, now..."environmentalism is a religion of peace!" The environmentalists enjoy their freedom but feed hatred. I think THEY are the ones who need diapers!

"Pass the brown sauce, brother" say I, devouring my chicken and chips...

Arcadia, you've been eating the brown sauce, brother!

Arcadia -- it may well be that these guys are a bunch of big talkers with no ties to action. I don't have any problem entertaining that possibility.

But so what? Doesn't big talk like that feed into the mentality of those who DO take action? The fertilizer *was* found, after all, so something's going on, and educated British Muslims sitting around talking about jihad couldln't possibly be a *good* thing for British society, could it?

Maybe the reporter didn't tell them his name. And maybe they're pretty open about how they feel.

Cusicus, calm down. I have 2 in diapers and they do their business sponteously. We'd have to live in the woods!

Back on topic, this article has some unbelievable stuff in it.

Sayful Islam (leader of the four guys here) said:

----
"Britain became a legitimate target when it sent troops to Iraq. But it is against Islam for me to engage personally in acts of terrorism in the UK because I live here. According to Islam, I have a covenant of security with the UK, as long as they allow us Muslims to live here in peace."
----

Something tells me that the covenant of security in Islam is not worth the paper it is written on. Need proof?

----
"The difference between us and those two," interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, "is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing."

Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain's scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: "He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame."
----

You wish to dismiss them? That's what they want you to think:

----
Muhammad Sulaiman, president of the Islamic Cultural Society, the largest of the 14 mosques in Luton, dismisses al-Muhajiroun as "verbal diarrhoea".

Sulaiman insists that Sayful Islam and his crew are not welcome at the mosque. He cannot prevent them praying there, but he will never give them a platform. "I've told Sayful to bugger off and ejected him many times," he says brusquely. "Even Sayful's father, who I know well, thinks his son has been brainwashed."

But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no mod Posted by: Jonathan at April 22, 2004 03:11 PM

...erate Muslims."
----

The end of the article gives a stern warning and a shot at Christianity (from Sayful Islam):

----
"I want to warn that the police raids - if repeated - could create a bad situation.

Islam is not like Christianity, where they turn the other cheek. If they raid our homes, it could lead to the covenant of security being broken.

Islam allows us to retaliate. That would include - he tugs his "Jihad" coat tight against the night air - by violent means."
----

Don't misinterpret "turn the other cheek". Christian beware!

Jane,

That's why it's so important to foster and maintain a sense of community in America. Where I live, neighbors know one another and share one another's joys and burdens. If a wacko moves into the neighborhood -- whether he's a pedophile, drug dealer, car thief, or Muslim cell plant, that American neighborhood should respond by making that new 'neighbor' very unwelcome, very fast. If he takes any overt terrorist action, American neighborhoods -- the ultimate 'homeland defense', should move on him without hesitation.

Mr. Beamer became a hero for doing that with a few other passengers aboard that ill-fated 4th airliner on 9/11. We should all think in the same way, all the time, wherever we are: the common defense of America is EVERY citizen's responsibility. In blatant cases of imminent attack, we do not wait hours or days for the 'authorities' to respond, as in some countries. We act as Americans should under our form of government.

And there are 274,000,000 of us.

Jane D.- from the article:

"It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious or just pumped full of misguided, youthful bravado. Though I see coldness - even ruthlessness - in their eyes, I sense no malice. Both young men agree, perhaps foolishly, to be quoted using their real names, though they decline photographs - thus illustrating their uncertainty of which way to jump."

And does this sound like all talk?
----
"The difference between us and those two," interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, "is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing."

Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain's scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: "He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame."
----

Should we wait for these "talkers" to act? Are Muslims poised to attack on our soil too?

yum. Thos lunatics have just made me hungry for some of that chicken and brown sauce.

I went to a writer's conference hosted by Brock and Bodie Thoene last year. They live part-time in London and she is Jewish. They have had Muslims pass their house in London, see their Jewish symbols and spit on their lawn. They have also had actors refuse to read their books (for books on tape) because of their pro-Israel stance.

Bottom line: Many Muslims hate Jews and England and the US are the lands of the free and the hate-free. All are welcome here. Even Muslims. That's gotta chafe.

Reminds me of the macho military wannabes here who talk about turning the middle east into a "glass parking lot".

As much as I vehemently disagree with the Muslim extremists religious views, I would definitely not dismiss them as "lunatics" or "mad men". In fact, their ideas that violence should be used to purge the "unbeliving dogs" makes (very frightening) sense, when you consider the practices and beliefs of their religion.
I can understand the desire to blow up London. I just took a trip there about 3 months ago, and I was shocked at how utterly pagan and non-Christian (or even "religious") the city is. It is totally void of hope, and were it not for my belief in Christianity, I'd be tempted to try to blow it up as well.

Cusicus: Is brown sauce the Muslim equivalent of Kool Aid?

Jane D. Obviously it is possible that this story is true. But given the style and other factors I cited, it just seems very unlikely to me.

In any event, I suspect a few of the British press hounds are hot on the trail of these guys right now. Along with maybe a few coppers...

It's amazing that there are people who can consistently spin the murderous actions of others into (and I'm paraphrasing) -- "Christians are the real problem."

Jonathan -- I wasn't suggesting it was all talk. I was just saying that even if Arcadia were right that it was all talk, it doesn't make it somehow "Not a problem."

i pray the brits watch out before they suffer spain's fate.

Rwanda, Sudan, Philipines, Bali, Israel, et. al. I'm sure we could go on. Naysayers scoff at foodbar banter. I wonder how many foodbar banters took place in these places? Lest we forget the OKC bombings of Timothy McVeigh and his cohorts.

But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq.

How many more faces will Britain see?
How many faces will we see in the good-ol US of A?

club soda: "The problem" is zealotry.

Sorry Jane D., I just think from reading the article and considering the times, we should be taking this seriously.

I think it would be a lovely idea for all Americans to visit their local mosques (for those who have them in their city) on a regular basis, and hear what goes on inside.

Think about it: you can learn a lot about that religion of peace, and the cultural exchange would help lift up the oppressed American Muslim community.

Just don't drink the brown sauce!

;o)

Jonathan: "even if." I repeatedly said "even if." I never said I agreed with Arcadia -- I simply said that "even if" he was right, there was STILL something to be concerned about.

How is that not taking it seriously?

I think we have just located Jason Blair.

Arcadia makes a good point that it's counter-intuitive that Muslims would speak this openly around a guy named "Cohen". That surname identifies the descendants of Aaron--it's the "Jewishest" name there is.

On the other hand, the brother of Ishmael probably should pass for an Ishmaelite better than most any other.....

Also, Cusicus & others do make a good case that one of the best defenses is the citizen militia--if they take it seriously. Yes, historically every male aged 18 to 46 is a member of the militia and should seriously investigate learning to use a firearm. (look at your dictionary under "militia")

Getting to know our neighbors and rebuking them when their speech and action inclines towards barbarousness is probably even more effective.

I don't dispute Arcadia's point about the name Cohen, I just think it's entirely plausible to assume that he didn't walk up to the table and say, "Hi, I'm David Cohen...." I mean, a guy named Cohen would KNOW he couldn't introduce himself by his proper name -- no one's that stupid.

Maybe he just engaged them in conversation? Or maybe he assumed a false name?

What I'm not finding in Arcadia's suspicion is any good reason to doubt the article, beyond the truism that there are some inauthentic articles out there. But without any more evidence than that, we might as well assume that everything we read is made up -- at least as long as it presents thoughts that we would prefer not be real ones.

Jane D.- I didn't see "even if". Here's what I saw:

"Arcadia -- it may well be that these guys are a bunch of big talkers with no ties to action. I don't have any problem entertaining that possibility.

But so what?" I was further elaborating on the "so what" (which you did follow up on in your post, but I was just taking it further). I didn't mean it to be critical of you, but was attempting to clarify.

>>>"Reminds me of the macho military wannabes here who talk about turning the middle east into a "glass parking lot".

Adam,

just guys shooting off a bit of steam is it? I hope to God you're right, but somehow I doubt it. Guys just shooting off steam don't quit their well-paying jobs to go fulltime with a terror enabling organization. A more accurate comparison would be a white supremacist selling his mobile home and moving to to Idaho. In other words, they are putting their money where their mouth is. That's more than letting off a bit of steam. Besides, letting off steam on the enemy is one thing, wishing for destruction of your own country is another. But we never really believed these people were real Brits, dide we?

"i pray the brits watch out before they suffer spain's fate."

Or ours...

How soon we forget.

But certain factions in this country already have minimized this threat and blame it on Christians and George Bush.

But I forget, these are the same parties that think personal responsibility should be abolished.

"How soon we forget."

Amen, Jim.

~Nate

Dear Arcadia, the problem is not "zealotry." Zealotry in hating every fellow human being but your fellow radical Islamist is bad zeal. Zealotry about ending slavery or teaching Vacation Bible School is good zeal.

Other examples abound.

True, Margaret. So let's state the obvious: the problem (as half of Asia and Africa, and much of Europe is finding out) is that Islam started a worldwide crusade 20 years ago, and is currently recruiting in American prisons and slums.

I finally have come to believe (intuitively; have no hard evidence) that President Bush's strategic and intelligence advisors have shown him the advanced nature of the geopolitical game, and recommended we start hitting back without delay, or we may be unable to stop them later. They DO have the goal of making every nation on earth Islamic. That is their stated goal.

So we're a little late in starting; but we're far more effective at Crusades than they are. So I expect the picture will be changing for the next 20 years and the pendulum *may* swing back. Indeed, Christianity is growing *faster* than Islam worldwide.

So let us have faith in the Lord, courage, clarity of mind, and diligence for both fronts of this war; it's a very, very old war. But Islam won't let it end.

Neither will we.

As I've come to see the bloody worldwide Islamic geopolitical war for domination (Africa's countless deaths come mostly to mind, but others like Indonesia, Pakistan, et al are pretty miserable, too. Christians are absolute cannon-fodder in so much of the Muslim world!) the importance of re-electing our President finally hit me.

I pictured Kerry as the 'leader' of the Christian side in this hot war; this worldwide jihad...Lord, but that was a horrible picture!

Arcadia,

"zealotry", like being passionate, is neither good nor bad. It's like money, it can be used for good or for bad.

I agree, Carlos. Good or bad! And the brown sauce is good, brother; can you pass it, please? (I say, as I devour my cheddar pizza.)

The more I read that 'interview', the more it seems Jayson Blair-ish. I can't see even an Islamic nutcase being that scripted.

While I believe that conversations of this type and this attitude exist amongst the Muslim community in the UK, I doubt this is a real account.

THE AGENDA OF ISLAM - A WAR BETWEEN CIVILIZATIONS
by Professor Moshe Sharon

There is no Fundamental Islam

"Fundamentalism" is a word that came from the heart of the Christian religion. It means faith that goes by the word of the Bible. Fundamental Christianity, or going with the Bible, does not mean going around and killing people. There is no fundamental Islam. There is only Islam full stop. The question is how the Koran is interpreted.

All of a sudden we see that the greatest interpreters of Islam are politicians in the western world. They know better than all the speakers in the mosques, all those who deliver terrible sermons against anything that is either Christian or Jewish. These western politicians know that there is good Islam and bad Islam. They know even how to differentiate between the two, except that none of them know how to read a word of Arabic.

The Language of Islam

You see, so much is covered by politically correct language that, in fact, the truth has been lost. For example, when we speak about Islam in the west, we try to use our own language and terminology. We speak about Islam in terms of democracy and fundamentalism, in terms of parliamentarism and all kinds of terms, which we take from our own dictionary. One of my professors and one of the greatest orientalists in the world says that doing this is like a cricket reporter describing a cricket game in baseball terms. We cannot use for one culture or civilization the language of another. For Islam, you've got to use the language of Islam.

Driving Principles of Islam

Let me explain the principles that are driving the religion of Islam. Of course, every Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is only one God. But it's not enough to say that there is only one God. A Moslem has to acknowledge the fact that there is one God and Mohammed is his prophet. These are the fundamentals of the relig Posted by: Linda at April 27, 2004 08:46 AM

A very good read on the issue of self defense is "What Were The Crusades?" by Timothy Riley-Smith. The Crusades were not (as the politically correct tell us) a "holy war", at least not at the beginning. They were an action to recapture land taken from Christian communities and where Christian pilgrims were attacked in many cases. The Christians defended themselves under established authorities, (both secular and church authorities), as just war concepts required. It did degenerate in many instances and has left a bitter legacy, but we live in freedom in America because the possibility of self-defense by Christians when their communities were threatened was not given up by our forbears. Ask yourself, why did the Reformation in England and Germany survive while in France it did not? In England, the believers migrated here or when that wasn't possible defended themselves against tyrannical government. In France, the leadership in the Christian community was wiped out at a stroke and many of the rest had to emigrate, because they could not defend themselves. The Christian community as such is not now under armed assault(though activities by Islamic terrorists and Gay Militia types might make you wonder), However as Francis Schaeffer argued in a Christian Manifesto, someone sure better be thinking about the above options for the long term, because it looks like we may need them! I know I am.