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Author Topic:   My take on: caulk hull/overdraw/hinting
Plan B
Foolproof

Posts: 4312
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 06-24-2002 12:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
DISCLAIMER: This is by no means a definite explanation on how to construct maps in Q3A. It's merely a showcase of how I currently approach matters. It's as much intended to help people as it is to be told what I may be doing wrong...

------------------------------------------------------


  • Start the map by building the walls first using detail brushes and patches and initially texturing everything with caulk.

    ->



  • When that's set up right place your (also detailed and caulked) floor brushes.

    When doing that try avoiding overdraw and keeping the number of visible faces to a minimum by clipping them to optimally accomodate the horizontal edges of the wall brushes.

    If you would just place square floor brushes they would be cut up in-game in a less than optimal way causing overdraw/more tris and a consequential performance hit.

    ->

    Same goes for the ceiling, which usually (slightly) differs from the floor construction, but to keep things simple; not in this case: copy the floor brushes/patches and raise them to form the ceiling.

    Now texture the visible faces.



  • Then place the structural caulk hull brushes, fitting them as tightly to the detail brushes as possible. They are caulked so wll not be drawn when they are flush with the detailed textured faces but make sure they do not protrude beyond the detailed textured faces since that may cause the dreaded Hall Of Mirrors-effect.

    ->



  • Now, if you would run this map in-game and show which tris are drawn by the engine (using the /r_showtris 1 command from the console) you would see something like this when standing in the lower-right corner...

    ->

    ...The faces beyond the 90 degree corridor are still drawn...



  • That's why you place a hint brush positioned and clipped as indicated in the corridor.
    Hit ctrl-D and ctrl-P first to hide detail brushes and patches to better see the structural caulk hull (which determines visibility) and define how to place your hint brush.

    ->



  • The brush faces that are not in direct visual contact with the brush faces around the corridor are thus not drawn in-game.

    ->

    ------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT:
    map file

    [This message has been edited by Plan B : 06-24-2002.]

  • Gran Master Q
    Warrior

    Posts: 87
    Registered: Mar 2002

    posted 06-24-2002 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gran Master Q Visit Gran Master Q's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Gran Master Q 
    Thank you.
    I was killing myself trying to understand Hint brushes placement. I completely get it now, Thanks to your post.
    Hats off to you!
    GMQ


    Kat
    "...mostly harmless?!"

    Posts: 3219
    Registered: Nov 2000

    posted 06-24-2002 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat Visit Kat's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Kat UIN: 102128154UIN: 102128154 
    you need to archive this along with Q's sample map thread (whilst you at it archive those other useful threads you've done with piccys exlaining various things, curves... etc..)

    ------------------
    my business
    my pleasure
    my profession
    they call me Mr Kat


    djbob
    UnRegistered
    posted 06-24-2002 02:17 PM          
    PLANB!!!

    come see me on irc

    wviperw
    Your friendly neighbor

    Posts: 1699
    Registered: Mar 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wviperw Visit wviperw's Homepage!   Click Here to Email wviperw UIN: 121452151UIN: 121452151 
    quote:
    Start the map by building the walls first using detail brushes and patches and initially texturing everything with caulk.

    -hmm, I usually go the other way around (structural caulk hull first, but this way works too

    quote:
    When doing that try avoiding overdraw

    -might want to explain what overdraw is to the masses

    quote:
    If you would just place square floor brushes they would be cut up in-game in a less than optimal way

    -ermm.. They wouldn't necessarily be cut up at all (although I can't tell for sure from your pic). But yes, you're right about the overdraw part.

    -the floor/ceiling caulk brushes could probably have been built better by mitering the corners. This would make cuts in the BSP that would be more useful than the current ones. (yea, I know--thats what hints are for, but still its the principle )

    Very nice post though Plan B! Seems like it explains everything that took me forever to learn in a few simple illustrations.

    Oh, and there are a few grammar mistakes in there. Not sure if you care or not, but if its going to be a tutorial/archive...

    ------------------

    [This message has been edited by wviperw : 06-24-2002.]

    krekits
    True Nightmare

    Posts: 3710
    Registered: Aug 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for krekits Visit krekits's Homepage!   Click Here to Email krekits 
    quote:
    -the floor/ceiling caulk brushes could probably have been built better by mitering the corners. This would make cuts in the BSP that would be more useful than the current ones.


    I disagree. Mitering those corners would not cause any "cuts in the BSP" as you put it. I fail to see what use mitering those corners would do.


    Old_Fellow
    The Illuminated

    Posts: 1463
    Registered: Jul 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Old_Fellow    Click Here to Email Old_Fellow 
    Pretty work Plan B, grammar is secondary here, essence is that we understand ourselves.


    wviperw
    Your friendly neighbor

    Posts: 1699
    Registered: Mar 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for wviperw Visit wviperw's Homepage!   Click Here to Email wviperw UIN: 121452151UIN: 121452151 
    quote:
    Originally posted by krekits:
    I disagree. Mitering those corners would not cause any "cuts in the BSP" as you put it. I fail to see what use mitering those corners would do.

    errr... nevermind then. For some reason I was thinking splits mattered on coplanar surfaces..

    obsidian
    Meridanox Duodecim

    Posts: 1419
    Registered: Feb 2002

    posted 06-24-2002 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for obsidian Visit obsidian's Homepage!   Click Here to Email obsidian UIN: 102149590UIN: 102149590 
    I've been looking everywhere for a very good tutorial on this stuff. Thanks for putting it right under my nose!

    ------------------


    Tom Cleghorn
    Herbal Remedy

    Posts: 1459
    Registered: Dec 1999

    posted 06-24-2002 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Cleghorn Visit Tom Cleghorn's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Tom Cleghorn UIN: 6629313UIN: 6629313 
    Hm, I've been starting off by building the hull first... may try it this way round though, as I've run into a few texture alignment issues doing it my way

    ------------------
    -=Proudly wasting time since 1980=-


    q
    True Nightmare

    Posts: 3484
    Registered: Feb 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 10:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for q Visit q's Homepage!    
    I also build the hull last. Far more flexible that way.

    Nice job but that hint should be extended into the top room for maximum effect, or you could have a second hint brush there following the same plane as the first. 1 more pic maybe

    Edit: No need to miter those 2 corners on the caulk hull by the way.

    --------------------

    Q's Maps

    [This message has been edited by q : 06-24-2002.]

    Plan B
    Foolproof

    Posts: 4312
    Registered: Jan 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
    quote:
    Originally posted by q:
    ...Nice job but that hint should be extended into the top room for maximum effect, or you could have a second hint brush there following the same plane as the first. 1 more pic maybe

    OK, only none of the brushes beyond the hint brush are drawn now...how can it be more optimal than that?

    quote:
    Originally posted by q:
    ...Edit: No need to miter those 2 corners on the caulk hull by the way.

    Yeah...you're right...looks better than overlapping, though

    angels
    Grunt

    Posts: 70
    Registered: Jan 2002

    posted 06-24-2002 10:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for angels Visit angels's Homepage!   Click Here to Email angels 
    Yes its an good i idea to post that.... it helps me.... thx...



    Plan B
    Foolproof

    Posts: 4312
    Registered: Jan 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
    quote:
    Originally posted by wviperw:
    ...might want to explain what overdraw is to the masses...

    Yeah, I know...but the content of the post touches on more subjects (clipping etc.) that would take things a little too far and would cloud up the post when I'd fully explain...


    EDIT:

    WITCH MISSTAIKS GREMMERLY!!!?

    [This message has been edited by Plan B : 06-25-2002.]

    q
    True Nightmare

    Posts: 3484
    Registered: Feb 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for q Visit q's Homepage!    
    quote:
    Originally posted by Plan B:
    OK, only none of the brushes beyond the hint brush are drawn now...how can it be more optimal than that?

    Depends where you stand doesnt it

    By extending the hint into the top room you get full value as you also get some extra blocking from inside the original hint and from inside the new 1.

    Oh and I think the overlapped corner (the lower 1) looks just as good as mitered

    --------------------

    Q's Maps

    [This message has been edited by q : 06-24-2002.]

    Plan B
    Foolproof

    Posts: 4312
    Registered: Jan 2001

    posted 06-24-2002 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
    Ah, *enlightenment*, thanks for that...

    Still think mitering > overlapping

    I'm gonna edit the post later and indeed possibly archive it. Gotta go workie though, presently


    Thanks for everyones feedback, BTW; really appreciated.


    Tom Cleghorn
    Herbal Remedy

    Posts: 1459
    Registered: Dec 1999

    posted 06-25-2002 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Cleghorn Visit Tom Cleghorn's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Tom Cleghorn UIN: 6629313UIN: 6629313 
    Yes, archive it.
    'Tis a good post...


    : Havoc
    UnRegistered
    posted 06-25-2002 02:36 AM          
    good post. archive the bastard!

    btw, as i understand it, mitering is only useful when dealing with textured (meaning non-caulk) structural brushes.

    ($0.02 cha-ching)

    HAVOC{PR}
    . . . vgeSstas . . .

    Plan B
    Foolproof

    Posts: 4312
    Registered: Jan 2001

    posted 06-25-2002 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
    quote:
    Originally posted by : Havoc:

    ($0.02 cha-ching)

    And your change, sir:

    quote:
    Originally posted by Plan B:

    Yeah...you're right...looks better than overlapping, though


    /me archives

    EDIT:
    Not archiving yet, because it will then become "read only" and I want folks to be able to reply for now if they want to...

    [This message has been edited by Plan B : 06-25-2002.]

    Tom Cleghorn
    Herbal Remedy

    Posts: 1459
    Registered: Dec 1999

    posted 06-25-2002 09:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Cleghorn Visit Tom Cleghorn's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Tom Cleghorn UIN: 6629313UIN: 6629313 
    ...what more is there to say about it? Might as well archive it now before it drops off the page and we all forget about it


    Kat
    "...mostly harmless?!"

    Posts: 3219
    Registered: Nov 2000

    posted 06-25-2002 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kat Visit Kat's Homepage!   Click Here to Email Kat UIN: 102128154UIN: 102128154 
    quote:
    Originally posted by Plan B:

    /me archives

    EDIT:
    Not archiving yet, because it will then become "read only" and I want folks to be able to reply for now if they want to...

    [This message has been edited by Plan B : 06-25-2002.]

    I know there is the links sticky etc... but what about creating a sticky that holds justthese little 'gems' in one place so they're easy to find. I mean there's this one, the one about curves, Q's sample map etc.... if I think back there are quite a few, 3 point clipping you did in responce to rrroooaaarr....

    "mini tutorials"


    Plan B
    Foolproof

    Posts: 4312
    Registered: Jan 2001

    posted 06-25-2002 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Plan B    Click Here to Email Plan B UIN: 159966629UIN: 159966629 
    Hmmm...you may be right, Kat.

    Only problem with that is that there's a lot of info given in the replying posts.

    Ideally it would be a sticky with single tutorialesque posts in which all feedback is integrated.

    I'll see what I can do

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