[Antti's page of Toronto Blessing]

An Interview with Pertti Tukiainen

Autumn 1996.

Pertti Tukiainen told that he had been cured by God from multiple sclerosis in the Church of Great Helsinki (SHS) in Spring 1995. The testimony of Pertti has appeared on different sites in the Internet.

Pertti is not really cured.

This interview tells the details.

Interviewed & translated by Antti Huima


Q:
Pertti, What happened in the Church of Great Helsinki (Suur-Helsingin Seurakunta) [later: SHS] in 1995, April the 29th?

A:
At the beginning of the meeting (during the worship) I noticed that I was able to stand with much more ease than previously. I have the MS sickness (multiple sclerosis). During that time, I used wheel chair at home and a rollator or a cane when walking on street. I was able to walk only short distances without such equipment. Two days after the meeting was a March for Jesus in Helsinki. I went there with my family and was able to march the whole course.

Q:
So your physical condition improved remarkably?

A:
Yes.

Q:
Could it have been your mere imagination only?

A:
No.

Q:
Did you believe that God had healed you?

A:
Yes, fully.

Q:
There was writings about your healing in some newspapers or magazines. Do you remember, in which all?

A:
At least in Ilta-Sanomat [a secular newspaper], Kipinae [an independent Christian magazine], Hyvae Sanoma [a pentecostal magazine], Dagen [a Swedish, Christian magazine] and a local [secular] newspaper of Kouvola [a Finnish town]. I have also heard that there has been a notice in television. Moreover, information about the event appeared in the Internet on various sites. I wrote a testimonial myself and sent it to some webmasters.

Q:
What was your attitude towards SHS that time?

A:
Readily from the first time I visited SHS I began to be dubious about the spiritual condition of the church. Ultimately I went to the church only about five times.

Q:
Why were you ``dubious''?

A:
When I was there at the first time, God showed me amongst the people that regularly went to the church persons that were under the spirit of the enemy. At least there were a medium and two homosexuals.

Q:
How did you know that they were regular goers?

A:
They seemed to know all the preachers. They moved as if they were at home and took part in the prayer ministry as intercessors.

Q:
What happened on the subsequent visits? Why did you put an end to going to the church?

A:
I began to wonder what happened to people in the church. I also wondered why so many had to quieten their inner voices of alert and like to tear themselves out from something giving warning as to be able to jump into the river. In my opinion, the situation is well described by a parable: A lot of children play in a river and a child on the shore would like to jump to the water and play with them; though his mother has told him not to do so as he cannot swim. The child jumps, however, with bad consequences.

This is what I saw in myself too. On the other side I wanted to go along; on the contrary, I felt a voice of alert inside me.

Finally I ceased to go to that church as I saw that the things were spiritually so bad there. I didn't want to partake in the sin of the church.

Q:
Jaana, you are the wife of Pertti. You were with him in SHS. How did you experience the atmosphere there?

A:
At the first time I felt a strong pressure in my heart, but after it I decided to grab by nose and jump into the river too.

I experienced very strong physical manifestations but innerly I was always left empty.

After some time people in SHS began to cast demons out of me. I had received a lot of the SHS ``spirit'' last night. The whole casting-out session was void. There were no demons in me. It was a lie. The intercessors thought that I hadn't leaved occultism. What they prayed did not touch and did not feel to touch me in any way.

I writhed (had compulsions) and it was hard to breath. The manifestations were similar to those I experienced when I had been really freed from my commission to spirit healing. If there were any spirits inside me they had come in the yesterday night. I had sit the whole day in my home in depression --- my husband knows that I do not tend to get depressed.

After that, I went to SHS only once.

Q:
Pertti: Despite all, you still believed that God had healed you. How could you belive that as meanwhile, in your opinion, the enemy powers were working in SHS?

A:
Numerous people told me that where God is working Satan may work too; and that it was however God who had healed me. Assurances of this kind come so much that I believed the thing without thinking further.

Q:
The name of SHS was missing already from the article published in Hyvae Sanoma. Did you try to remove the name of SHS from your testimonials in the Internet?

A:
Yes.

Q:
What happened?

A:
I was asked: ``Do you own the miracles of God by yourself?'' The name of SHS remained in the testimonial writing. I wouldn't have minded to be a mannequin for SHS or Toronto [Blessing] and that's why I wanted the connection with SHS away from my testimony. I didn't consider the work of SHS to have originated from God.

Q:
As far as I can understand, at this moment you were critical with the whole Toronto experience?

A:
When I saw the nature of the powers in SHS and got understanding that the same power works in the whole Toronto experience (the ``laughing revival''). I wanted to wash my hands clean from the whole movement.

Q:
Isn't it true that your healing is one of the most widely known miracles that have supposedly taken place in SHS?

A:
I understand so.

Q:
How does the another chapter of the story begin?

A:
I wondered why God didn't do full job in me. Some months ago I had been told that I have arthritis. When I got healed from the MS sickness the arthritis continued to exist, however.

Q:
Did you ever doubt the genuinity of your healing?

A:
Some times.

Q:
What happened when you were in doubt?

A:
Always when there appeared even a glimpse of doubt in my mind somebody was ready to prophecy about the great work of God in me. ``Thus says the Lord, God Almighty: Don't doubt my work.''

Q:
Did you believe in the prophecies?

A:
As there was enough of them, I had no other alternatives. I was uncertain and the prophecies seemed to make the situation clear.

Q:
Why did you have doubts, then?

A:
I had physical problems that were easy to compare with either the MS sickness or the arthritis that hadn't been healed. The problems didn't cease. Moreover I experienced continuous doubt in my spirit.

At the beginning of the Summer -96 symptoms of dumbness began to appear. They had been formerly a part of the clinical picture of my MS sickness.

At the beginning of July I was diagnosed to have asthma. The doctor said that it is possible that asthma gives rise to dumbness of limbs due to lack of oxygen. I presumed that the symptoms were caused by asthma.

In my testimony I mention that ``God began inner healing in me'', and that ``my marriage got better'', and that ``my tendness to quarrel decreased''. This lasted only for a week or two, however. After that our old marital situation came back.

Q:
What happened next?

A:
When I got cure for asthma the breathing problems ceased but the dumbness continued. After the beginning of August my balance began to fling and the old symptoms of the MS sickness began to reappear fast pace. One morning I woke up, and my eyes were looking to different directions. The uncoordination of muscles is a symptom of the MS sickness also.

Q:
In your situation, did you turn to a doctor?

A:
Yes. The same doctor who had recorded my healing too. I wanted to be honest and go, if possible, first to his review.

He pounded the situation so bad that he wanted me as soon as possible to hospital for treatment. Next Monday I went in and was there three days having intravenous medication.

Q:
Do you still have MS sickness?

A:
Yes. I'm obliged to use a wheel chair regularly.

Q:
Do you still believe that God did heal you from the MS sickness?

A:
No.

Q:
Why?

A:
God does the real thing. This wasn't it.

Q:
Were it possible that God had really tried to heal you but that the symptoms came back because of your doubts?

A:
I do not readily belive that. If God were to do something as miraculous as this He would surely work faith in my heart to receive the healing. The Bible says that it is God who works willing and doing in you, so that His good will shall be done.

Q:
What did you and your doctor consider to be the relation between the MS sickness and the arthritis?

A:
We noticed together that the symptoms of the MS sickness had got better a bit but that they had not disappeared fully. The sickness advanced continuously altough hiding under the symptoms of the arthritis.

Q:
What do you say about your experience in April the 29th one and a half years ago?

A:
In SHS where I experienced this ``healing miracle'' was Satan in work. It is said to be possible that God's spirit can work in a church were simultaenously happens things that have nothing to do with God. But it is not true. The Bible says that the same tree cannot bear two different fruits: other good, other not. As this is the case, I consider that I've been a victim of the event described in Mark 13:22:

For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. [KJV]

Not so that what happened to me would be a sort of wonder. I'm just a drop in the sea of the numerous similar events. During the last year I've heard shocking testimonies about the satanic origins of the current many phenomena (note: Toronto is only one of those). Lying, adultery, divorces, witchcraft; even cases of death.

I've visited some churchs to tell my story and to publicly apologize for having been a victim of lie and having testimonied lies; ``to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect''.

Q:
What has been the impact of all this on your relationship with God?

A:
My relationship with God has improved noteably. I feel more peaceful and balanced than when I was fake healed. ``The thruth shall set you free.'' I trust in God more deeply than previously.

Neither me nor my wife have ever been in mental health cure.