This is a continuation of our discussion on the use of Fire in the writings of JRR Tolkien. Those wishing to familiarize themselves with earlier points should go to:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=7141&PagePosition=1

The subject will be dealt with under a number of topic headings.

Each topic will be proceeded by an introductory post giving an overview to that topic. Then we will post coments related to that topic until a natural point of ’exhaustion’ appears to have been reached. We will then proceed to the next topic.

In looking at the way Tolkien uses fire I suggest that we cast that word in the widest possible context- from the greed ’kindled’ by Sauron’s rings to the watch fires used to summon the allies of Gondor. So all references to fire/ flame/light/burning/kindle/ kindling/warmth/warming/burning/burn  etc should be explored.

The topics - and order- currently suggested- are as follows:

The Use of ’Fire’ in the Works of JRR Tolkien with Particular Reference to The Silmarillion and LOTR

A. The Promethean Legacy- Fire in the wider mythic cosmogony - Halfir

B. Fire in The Silmarillion and LOTR - general observations- Khelektari

C. Fire as Eru’s instrument -Khelektari

D. Fire and the Valar- Melethril

E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun- Ragnelle

F. Sauron and Fire- Elrond 3

G. Gandalf and the flame of Anor-Halfir

H. The Istari and Fire - Meler

I.The Elves and fire - Melanoriel

J. Men and Fire - Ragnelle

K. The Dwarves and fire - Geir

L. The Hobbits and Fire - Benya

M. The Ents and fire - Melethril

N. The Palantiri and Fire -Elkirian

O. Tolkien’s use of Fire in his Minor Works- Halfir

P.Major themes associated with Fire in The Silmarillion and LOTR- Ragnelle

Q. Review and Conclusions

Topics that do not have a name beside them still await authors for their introduction and you are cordially invited to propose yourself for that role for any topic/s that are of paticular interest to you.

We are currently about to embark on Topic D- Fire and the Valar.

May I do:

Elves and the fire?

I would much enjoy it and contribute a lot.

Melanoriel: Welcome! I am delighted by your offer and have amended the topic list accordingly. May I suggest, if you haven't already done so, that you familiarize yourself with the earlier posts of the previous thread which are germane to your topic.

I.The Elves and fire- Melanoriel

I will give you fair advance warning of when your topic is likely to come up.

I would like to contribute, but what exactly do I have to do? Do I just research the topic that I pick and give everyone the information I find?

Hello, everyone!

Yes I am still lurking about and reading with growning excitement this huge project on FIRE.  I do have a small speculation to contribute.  Referring back to Khelektari's post on 1-26-04:

this Flame does appear to be the means of his creation.  For example, the Ainur are "kindled" with the Flame. 
Is it merely a metaphor for life itself?  I say that because though the Flame Imperishable is set in the Void, appearing as a cloud with a heart of fire, yet the Valar need to create the actual physical features of the world.

I see the "Creation" thing in 3 parts.  The Music of the Ainur was a kind of MENTAL TEMPLATE, a master plan; the kindling with the Flame Imperishable represented the SPIRITUAL TEMPLATE that was made before all things could incarnate; and then the Ainur were able to manifest in physical form what they had seen and felt.  What the significance of this is in realtion to the subject under discussion, I am unsure, but perhaps it is something like Eru did the work of bestowing spirit and delegated the rest.

Melanoriel: Each topic appears sequentially, so before we get to I we have to go through D-H.

I will let you know when your topic introduction should appear. Once it is made people will undoubtedly wish to both comment on your observations, build on them, and add ideas of their own.

By keeping the topics structured in this way we ensure the very highest degree of focus and accessibility to particular areas of interest. 

Nolofinwe: You let us know by way of posting here, what topic/s you would like to cover. Once that is agreed, you then take whatever  introductory approach seems best to you. A good guide is to look at earlier introductions and see how they have approached the subject, but, in the end, the choice is solely yours.

My post is coming soon, I promise! I just need to find a way to write and tweak in secret, so as not to get myself fired. I don't think 'Researching Tolkien's works' is part of my job description. 

In the meantime...Arasfaen, I'm delighted that you've joined the discussion! Your post makes me think back to Gandalf's description of himself in FOTR, "The Bridge of Khazad-dum": 'I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor.' I know this quote keeps popping up, but I'm focusing right now on the use of the words 'servant' and 'wielder.' Gandalf is not the creator of the Secret Fire (stating the obvious, I know, but bear with me), nor is he 'master' of the Flame of Anor, or any other noun that implies lordship/authority/creation/whatever. Instead, he is 'servant' and 'wielder,' both of which imply that Gandalf manages/employs/uses the Secret Fire and Flame of Anor, but is not the source of either. This seems to support your idea that Eru bestowed upon the Ainur the spirit of the Fire, and left the rest to them.

Melkor- The first of the Vala referred to by name, he is immediately associated with the Secret Fire, “He had gone often alone into the void places seeking the Imperishable Flame; for the desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own, and it seemed to him that Iluvatar took no thought for the Void, and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the Fire, for it is with Iluvatar.” (Ainulindale) A few passages later, as the Ainur in general begin to comprehend Iluvatar’s vision for the World, we see temperature factoring into Melkor’s wishes once again. “And he feigned, even to himself at first, that he desired to go thither and order all things for the good of the Children of Iluvatar, controlling the turmoils of the heat and the cold that had come to pass through him.”

The next mention of Melkor is spoken by Iluvatar, in reference to Melkor’s war against Ulmo’s deep waters: “Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint…” And then we get Melkor’s first actions in Ea, the World that Is: “But Melkor too was there from the first, and meddled in all that was done, turning it if he might to his own desires and purposes; and he kindled great fires. When the Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it…” This then brings us to the first physical description of Melkor: “and he also took physical form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any of the other Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire, and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold." So ends mention of Melkor in the Ainulindale. In the Valaquenta, it is stated that he is no longer counted amongst the Valar, but I put him in here anyway. I’m posting the other Valar in my next post, so that we can more easily ignore Melkor, if we decide to discuss him in section E.

(Ok, here's part 2...enjoy)
The Aratar:

Manwe- Although Manwe is described as ‘Sulimo,’ the Breath of Arda, I think it’s important to note that he and Melkor are said to be brothers. Although Melkor is mightiest, “Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes.” It might be interesting to more closely analyze what it means for Melkor and Manwe to be “brethren in the thought of Iluvatar.” (Valaquenta) Physically, Manwe is also described partly in terms of flame: “blue is the fire of his eyes…” (Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

Varda- wife to Mawe, Varda is the Lady of the Star, and “the light of Iluvatar lives still in her face. In light is power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Ea she came to the aid f Manwe; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.” (Valaquenta) In addition to this really interesting Manwe-Melkor-Varda relationship, Varda is also called the “Kindler,” as she created the first stars. It was she who filled the Two Lamps with light. When Melkor destroyed the lamps, “destroying flame was poured out over the Earth. And the shape of Arda and the symmetry of its waters and its lands was marred in that time, so that the first designs of the Valar were never after restored.” (Quenta Silmarillion, Of the Beginning of Days)

Ulmo- the Lord of the Seas, he is never connected with fire, with the exception of what Iluvatar says to him about Melkor’s war. “Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor has made war upon thy province? He has bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea.” ( Ainulindale) What is this war? And why does Iluvatar then tell Ulmo that he is more naturally aligned with Manwe, Lord of the Air? And what does any of this have to do with Melkor and fire? I refer to the quote above from the Quenta Silmarillion (see Varda), as it relates to the effect of the ‘destroying flame’ on the ‘symmetry of [Arda’s] water.’ We are given another connection between Ulmo’s power and Melkor’s a bit later in the same Quenta chapter: “Thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open.”

Aule- Again, fire is not at first associated with Aule. However, the description of his relationship with Melkor is interesting, and I think will prove important. “Melkor was jelous of him, for Aule was most like himself in thought and in powers; and there was long strofe between them…” (Ainulindale) I shall attempt to flesh this out more fully when I post my personal thoughts on what all of this means. Aule, as the smith-god, also has a natural affinity with fire, and it was he who wrought the two mighty lamps, Illuin and Ormal. He also created the vessels which housed the lights of the Sun and Moon. He was also the Firend of the Noldor, who later created the Silmarils. Again, the connection between smithcraft and fire.

Yavanna- Most important to this discussion is Yavanna’s creation of Telperion and Laurelin, which eventually bore the flower and fruit which became the Sun and Moon.  As Queen of the Earth, it may also be interesting to consider the meaning of the aforementioned Quenta Silmarillion passage (see Varda) on the lands of Arda. What is the connection between the Queen of the Earth creating Trees, which bear flowers and fruit that become the Sun and Moon? Why is it Yavanna, and not Varda as Lady of the Stars, who creates such ‘heavenly’ bodies?

Nienna- Nienna’s tears on the mound of Ezellohar watered the earth, and enabled the Two Trees to grow. Her tears also helped cleanse the Trees of Ungoliant’s filth, which in turn helped the growth of the last fruit and flower (again, which became the Sun and Moon).  She also played a large part in Gandalf’s instruction, which may prove important when we analyze his associations with Fire.

Orome- It is difficult to find any connection between Orome and fire itself. Therefore, although it may be a stretch, I cite the description of his horse, which “shone like silver in the shadows,” and from whom it is said the Mearas descend. In addition, “the mountains echoed, and the shadows of evil fled away, and Melkor himself quailed in Utumno,” when Orome blew his great trumpet, Valaroma. Perhaps the relationship between Orome and shadows, and the effect of Valaroma on Melkor has some bearing on this discussion.

Namo (Mandos)- I can think of no direct connection between Mandos and Fire, except that the Halls of Mandos are where all spirits of Elves and Men are gathered, and we have already discussed flame/light in the sense of ‘spirit,’ i.e. the Flame Imperishable.

The Remaining Valar:

Irmo, Vaire, Este, Vana, Nessa, and Tulkas- I have no idea. There’s so little said about them that it’s hard to make a connection. I’m open to suggestion.

An excellent summation. Thank you so much. I will return to further comment later, but would like to make a comment about Melkor - although I know we are going to treat him as a separate toopic later.

The language that surrounds Melkor and Fire epitomizes its negative qualities- the qualities of destruction- which are themselves aspects of Melkors own nature.

“Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint…

 the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible

his own malice was as unrestrained as the heats and fires that he devised.

It is also interesting to note that as his great servant, Sauron. walks down the same primrose path, the physical image that he is forced to take in incarnate form echoes that of Melkor:

“and he also took physical form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible

Sauron flees the Drowning of Numenor as

' a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind' (Letter # 211)

and afterwards :

'though he was now robbed of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of  Men, yet his spirit rose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea, and came back to Middle-earth and to Mordor that was his home.' (The Silmarillion-Akallabeth)

and thus

'the heat of Sauron's hand which was black, and yet burned like fire' (FOTR-The Council of Elrond)

and

'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic.' (Letter # 246)

compare Melkor- that form was dark and terrible

with Sauron

hand which was black (Melkor-dark)

'Sauron should be thought of as very terrible (Melkor-terrible)

There are two patterns of Fire association that I saw emerging when I was compiling data about the Aratar (since the others just don't pop up, I don't think this topic can really be "Valar and Fire" anymore):

1) Fire and Light: The Two Lamps, the Two Trees, the Sun and Moon, etc. Those of the Aratar who played a role in illuminating the World: Yavanna, Varda, Nienna, Aule.

2) Fire and Melkor: those of the Aratar who are described largely in terms of their relationship with: Manwe, Ulmo, Aule, Varda, Orome.

The exception here is Mandos. He doesn't seem to fit in either category. Varda is also an interesting study, primarily because Melkor feared her, rather than Manwe, above all the Valar. I can't flesh out this thought here, but I wanted to toss it out there anyway. I'll be back.

He fears her above all the others and it is she who takes greatest joy in Light, which contains power, and whose face holds the Light of Iluvatar, yet he was most ardently in search of the Flame and had to content himself with mere fire and destruction.  I think its that Light/Burning thing again.  Good work, Melethril, I think you had a bear of a topic in terms of finding text to work with.

Awww, you're going to make me blush, Khel.

Well, the first indication that Manwe and Melkor were somehow more closely "related" is in the quote from the Valaquenta which I put in the entry on Manwe above. The context for that line is: "Manwe and Melkor were brethren in the thought of Iluvatar. The mightiest of those Ainur who came into the World was in his beginning Melkor; but Manwe is dearest to Iluvatar and understands most clearly his purposes." 

I find it interesting that you asked both about the Manwe/Melkor relationship and the Air/Fire relationship in the same post. Manwe's "delight is in the winds and the clouds, and in all the regions of the air, from the height to the depths, from the utmost borders of the Veil of Arda to the breezes that blow in the grass. Sulimo he is surnamed, Lord of the Breath of Arda." (Valaquenta) So Manwe is clearly associated with Air, and we've already discusses Melkor's association with fire. Therefore, if Manwe and Melkor are 'brethren in the thought of Iluvatar' more than any of the other Valar, than logically Air and Fire are more closely related as well.

(Unrelated: Khel, you completely gave me a new insight for the "Air, Water, Earth and Fire" thread. Thank you!!!)

Elrond 3: I am somewhat puzzled by the non-appearance of a confirmatory note that I posted regarding this, but as it was done via a somewhat 'wonky' machine in a cyber-cafe perhaps a glitch occurred!

However, thank you so much for the offer which is warmly accepted, and I have amended the topic list accordingly:

F. Sauron and Fire- Elrond 3

I will give you adequate advance warning as to when your introduction is needed.

This now leaves us with the following lacking introductory authors, and I invite readers of this thread to respond accordingly:

E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun

H. The Istari and Fire

N. The Palantiri and Fire

Melanoriel: We are nowhere near yet ready for your introductory post. I was simply inviting readers to fill the slots currently left available. As with all others who have kindly agreed to post introductions I will give you plenty of advance warning as to when your intro is rquired.

At the moment I am looking for someone to write the intro to Morgoth and the Flame of Udun which will soon become presssing.

Perhaps we are having some of the same discussion in the two topics, Melethril, but I don't think it would be out of place to point this out here, too.  First of all, I appreciate the way you have concisely presented the information.  Now I will offer comment upon the pasages you have chosen. 

Referring back to My Creation Theory, Melkor's rebellion occurred after the lighting of the Flame Imperishable, continued during the Music of the Ainur, which I have called the Spiritual or Fire Stage, and ultimately became a spiritual rebellion, but I would like to amend that now.  I think the Flame Imperishable and the Music of the Ainur represent the stage in which VOLITION was added to the equation, and that to say Melkor's was a spiritual rebellion is too vague; it was a Sin of Volition, in a double sense.  It is the moment at which his will and the will of Iluvatar diverged, and seeking the Flame Imperishable is a metaphor for his desire for POWER OVER THE WILLS OF OTHERS.

His devising of "heats and fires without restraint" represents two things.  First, it signifies his own indomitable Will, so strong in him that he thought to contend with, even replace Eru. Secondly, Tolkien employs Melkor's penchant for extremes of heat and cold as a metaphor for evil.  As we discussed in the other thread, all the elements are good in moderation, but their extremes are destructive.  Melkor is so willful, that rather than his spirit burning bright, it scorches and darkens.  The fiery light goes out in its extreme form and becomes darkness.

About part 2:

Interestingly, all of the other Valar associated with light and/or fire are also associated with another element which tempers it.  Ulmo Lord of Waters is the antithesis of Fire.  Varda, the Kindler, associated with the Sky, is in harmony with Eru, and it is she that Melkor most fears.  Why is that?  More on that later perhaps, as it doesn't pertain to the discussion at hand.

About the patterns:

I find it significant that the Valar involved in the lighting of the Two Trees are Yavanna (Earth), Varda (Air), Nienna (Water), Aule (Fire / Earth).  One might even say that Aule is Melkor as he should have been  .

That's all I've got for now, except to say that you did a marvelous job of furthering the discussion.

"One might even say that Aule is Melkor as he should have been."
What a marvelous thought! I had been pondering the relationship between Melkor and Aule, because I find it very interesting that Manwe is said to be Melkor's brother, yet it is Aule who is "most like [him] in thought and powers."  This comparison is heightened by Melkor's previously noted association with Fire, and Aule's role as smith-god. (I realized that I promised to expand on this relatinship when I posted my personal thoughts, and then failed to do so. I also realized that I posted a typo in quoting the Sil. There was 'strife,' not 'strofe' between Aule and Melkor. I apologize)

I think Arasfaen hit the nail on the head. Aule shows many of the same characteristics as Melkor, and is nearest him in nature. Yet, despite the similarity in thought and powers, Aule does not share Melkor's fate. This beings us back to a previous post of halfir's, which I have been waiting to discusss more deeply. Ladies and Gentlemen, it is now time for the Aule and Melkor Celebrity Death Match! (Ok, not really, but humor me...)

In a post from the first thread, I'd commented that "[Melkor's] intentions, his desire to create for him own gratification, which directly contrasted with Iluvatar's motivation for the creation of Arda and his Children."  (my underlined emphasis) In response, halfir immediately noticed the parallel between Melkor's desire to create and Aule's creation of the Dwarves, but also pointed out that Aule's motivations were "very different to those of Melkor....And his answer to Eru when asked why he had made the dwarves is in stark contrast to the self-indulgent gratification that underlies Melkors desire:"

'I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Ea, which thou has caused to be.' (The Silmarilion- Of Aule and Yavanna) (My underlined emphasis) halfir summarized the distinction as follows: Aule wishes to create to celebrate the glory of the Lord - Melkor to celebrate the glory of himself," and used the following quote as support: 'for desire grew hot within him to bring into Being things of his own' (The Silmarillion Ainulindale) (halfir's bold emphasis)

Building off these quotes, I think it's fair to argue that Aule is Melkor as he should have been. Aule used his thoughts and powers for the beautification of Ea- he made Illuin and Ormal, as well as the vessels which housed the light of the Sun and Moon. His use of fire is to illuminate, whereas Melkor's created darkness and shadow. As regards the Silmarils, Aule was Friend to the Noldor, and taught them how to create objects of beauty. Melkor could only covet such beauty, because he was no longer capable of creating it himself.

Melethril: Pursuing the concept of Aule being Melkor as he should have been, it is interesting to note that in classical mythology/symbolism the role of the blacksmith has both a positve and negative connotation. Indeed, the smithy itself has elements which are both creative and destructive - as does the nature of fire.

The primeval blacksmith is not the creator, but his assistant, his instrument, the maker of the god's tools or the organizer of the created world. But the blaksmith's symbolic share in the work of creation carries with it the diabolic parody of forbidden activity.

I am not suggesting that Tolkien slavishly modeled Melkor and Aule on the mythological aspects of the blacksmith, but I suspect that, consistent with his desire to creat a 'myth' which - by definition- had to have 'resonances' of wider myth in order to be comprehended, he incoproarted some of those aspects in his characterization of the two.

Quote: Originally posted by halfir on Tuesday, February 10, 2004

---

The primeval blacksmith is not the creator, but his assistant, his instrument, the maker of the god’s tools or the organizer of the created world.

---

Admittedly, my knowledge of myths and legends is pretty much restricted to Greek/Roman mythology (I don't think Yiddish folktales count), but I could not help thinking of Hephaestus/Vulcan when reading your previous post. Interestingly, Vulcan was not only the "maker of the god's tools," although in this case it would be "gods' tools," but also the god's (a.k.a Zeus/Jupiter) son. Furthermore, he happens to be the only child of both Jupiter and Juno.

I am by no means suggesting that any of this is directly relevant, or that Tolkien was influenced more heavily by Greek/Roman mythology than byu others. After all, his knowledge base was far greater than mine. I simply found it interesting, and felt like sharing. Particularly when looking at the Valar through the 'myth' lens. Tolkien also created Valar of Sky, Sea and Soil (among others, of course), all of whom are found in the wider genre of mythology.

Melethril: I think that Tolkien was much more heavily influenced by classical mythology than it is currently fashionable to think. His school and his peer group at school (King Edward V1) were heavily influenced by the classics, and he observes in Letter #144:

'I was brought up in the Classics, and first discovered the sensation of literary pleasure in Homer."

BTW readers we are still awaiting a volunteer for E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun which is coming up fast on the outside.

I would prefer if a newcomer could take this on-board rather than one who is already committed to or has posted an introduction.

Any takers?

I will gladly take the Istari and Fire Halfir.

As for the current topic I would like to pull out and expand the idea mentioned above of Good in moderatuion yet evil to the extreme as posted by Arasfaen. As said tolkien clearly shows this evil in its extremes love of the extremes. melkor loves extreme heat and extreme cold. I think then that Eru created the fire Imperishable the greatest in melkor but then with melkor's free will, he himself was drawn further into the power of the fire until he was enveloped by it and mesmorised to its extreme.

A then interesting thing i pull is the lack of fire that we find in Ulmo. Yet the quote “Thus it was by the power of Ulmo that even under the darkness of Melkor life coursed still through many secret lodes, and the Earth did not die; and to all who were lost in that darkness or wandered far from the light of the Valar the ear of Ulmo was ever open.” speaks thtat Ulmo was still involved. i think this is accurate to suggest that Tolkien did this to show that fire to the extreme was bad. Through Ulmo this extreme had an enemy, and Ulmo's lack of fire and strength of water was an attempt to balance melkor's evil. This point i believe is strengthened through the many times which Ulmo is taking part in the wars against morgoth while the other Valar have stopped careing or resisting. This shows in my opinion that Ulmos purpose with the fire is to counteract it and keep the extreme from enveloping the earth.

Meler: Thank you so much, both for the contribution and the offer. I have amended the topic list accordingly to show that you will introduce H -The Istari and Fire.

We're still awaiting a volunteer for E Morgoth and the Flame of Udun.Don't be coy!

Ragnelle: Mirabile dictu! A damsel come to rescue others in distress! Still, in our feminist age perhaps that is only as it should be!

Thank you so much- I have amended the Topic List accordingly and- even given your caveats- eagerly await your introduction of E Morgoth and the Flame of Udun.

Ragnelle: In terms of the topic I was using the tern ’Flame of Udun’ to emphasize the ’darkside’ of fire - so don’t get too hung-up on that specific phrase vis a vis The Silmarillion. It’s main reference is in FOTR The Bridge of Khazad Dum in Gandalf’s interchange with the Balrog where he distinguishes between the flame of Anor and the flame of Udun.

In the 1977 (first edition) of The Silmarillion edition index there is no entry under Udun per se. References to Utumno are on pp.36-7,41,50-1,73,81,99,118.

There is also no refernce to it or Utumno in the Appendix.

Foster in The Complete Guide to ME using only references to LOTR surmizes as follows:

'(Sindarin:Un-west? Hell?) The source of the dark flame of the Balrog,possibly Utumno, possibly the darkness of the spirit of Melkor.'

Foster, of course, wrote only with LOTR and The SIlmarillion as references- HOME and UT had not appeared at the time of his initial work.

In HOME X Morgoth's Ring -Myths Transformed Udun is identified as Utumno:

"he {Morgoth} began the delving underground of his great fortress in the far North, which was afterwards named Utumno (or Udun).'

Since Halfir has been so kind and bumped, I guess I'll have to do what I promised and introduse the next toppic.

E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun.

Not much is said about Udun. It is the name of a region in Mordor but also assosited with Morgoth. In my index of LotR, it is given the meaning 'hell'. Now "the Flame of Udun " is used by Gandalf when confronting the Balrog, which would make it the "Flame of Hell" . We are in other words dealing with the dark and destructive side of fire.
Thinking of this toppic I was reminded of an article I read long ago by the Brittish story-teller S. J. Pome Claton; How is the feminine principle represented in traditional narrative. I will not talk of the whole article, as that woud be to much of toppic, but she makes a distintion between the diferent ways women are represented in stories that can have a bearing on our subject. She has four categories; 

• The Good Mother, asosiated with birth, life and growing things. She is the nurturer and the helper, the wise old crone.
• The Stone Mother who makes all things barren. She is the cold wtich that turns us to stone.
• The Ecstatic Mother, mostly repersented as the Maiden or Virgin. She is wisdom, inspiration, the one how expands the mental and spiritual life. The muse.
• The Terrible Mother, asosiated with heat and fire, death and devouring. She is the hot witch, exseplifed in Baba Yaga (a Rusian witch), Kali and Hecate.

The Terrible Mother is the one most interesting to us. This is the dark aspect of fire, the light aspect corresponding more to the Ecstatic Mother.

The Balrog in LotR is deskribed as a "dark figure streaming with fire" (FotR, The Bridge of Khazad-Dûm) and Balrogs are considered amog the most terrible of Morgoth's servants. The words used ( dark and fire) conects them the type of creature, or energy if you will, that is the hot witch. Morgoth himself also comes into this category when his is ruled by his greed or passion.

At the moment I have run out of things to say, but I hope this can help bring our disution forward.

Very interesting! I would never have associated the Balrog with anything even remotely feminine, and I find the contrast between the Ecstatic Mother and Terrible Mother most thought-provoking. Are the other Mothers represented in any way in ME?

I also found myself thinking about the name change from Melkor to Morgoth. I realize that Feanor actually first called him "Morgoth Bauglir." Yet Melkor means "He Who Arises in Might" and Morgoth means "Dark Enemy." Given our previous discussions about Light/Dark and the different characteristics of fire, this somehow seems significant to me. My brain is slightly fried from RL, so I cannot flesh this out more fully right now, but I wanted to toss it out there anyway.

I have not though of any other corresopndens, but Yavanna might correspond to the Good Mother, being conected with the growing things. The Stone Mother is a bit more difficult. In some parts Morgoth fits her too, when he is conected with cold and ice and barren lands. I would think of Varda as the closest corresponent to the Ecstatic Mother, as I assoiate her with the good aspect of fire (lighting the stars). Ungolat could also  have part of the cold witch, but she too devours and that is more typical of the Teribble mother.

I have not though of Morgoth as typical feminine either, but it is something about the energy of the hot witch that reminds me of this dark fire. Look forward to hering more of your thoughts on this.

I would still not necessarlly assoiciate the balrog with anything feminine because in some myths that would be true but in other myths thoughs exact same qualities would be masculine.  The person who wrote that probally has a great knowledge of myths then me but still J.R.R. Tolkien might have had a greater.

Elkirian: Thanks so much!I have amended the overall topic list to read:

N: The Palantiri and Fire- Elkirian

I must apologize for the curent paucity of my contributions. Unfortunately until next Monday I am heavily committed to RL work and have little free time. But, I will return!

Ragnelle: I'd like us to stick with Morgoth and the Flame of Udun pro tem. I know we've had a hiatus-on my part RL has intervened-but I have a number of points I wish to make- and I would therefore like to 'hold' on this topic for a couple more days!

However- can we please put Elrond 3 on Red Alert for Sauron and Fire which will be coming-up soon!

In an entirely different thread, I found myself discussing the Balrog of Moria, and suddenly realized there here was something to discuss in this thread! Yay! So here goes:
(this is a bit of a cut and paste job, because I combined two different posts of mine, and had no wish to retype them)

I've always been intrigued by Gandalf's description of the Balrog of Moria during and after the fight, namely when its flames are doused, and then when it bursts into flame anew atop the mountain.

"'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was as the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'
     'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
     'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but now he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake. We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels....In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.... There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame.'" TTT, The White Rider, my bold emphasis

I know that Balrog are Maiar, and therefore their power comes from being among the Ainur of Iluvatar. Yet Balrogs are Maiar associated with Fire, which (to me) implies that a great deal of their 'power,' or whatever other word we choose to use here, is tied in with fire.

So why is the Balrog of Moria not weakened when his fires are doused? In addition, this particular Balrog seems to like dwelling in darkness. So it seems ironic to me that it is in sunshine, i.e. light, (which usually has an positive connotation) where he bursts into flame once more.

Melethril: A real brain-teaser here. Well-done! I must admit that I have no ready response- which is ,of course,just as it should be. Here we seek wisdom, not 'pat answers'!

The point about water -both dousing the fire yet strengthening the Balrog- it that is indeed the link- is strange indeed. Water was something that Morgoth and his 'followers' (both immediate and later) did not much like (c.f. The Nazgul and water). As Tolkien observes:

'Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth.(This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled- all things could) {Morgoth's Ring -Myths Transformed- Notes on the motives in the Silmarillion 11)

Perhaps the bracketed comment holds some clue- though I must admit at the moment I do not see the conenction.

I have less problem with the Balrog bursting into flame once again when he reaches sunlight. The flame of Udun was a perversion of the flame of Anor- a perversion of the light- yet nonetheless it was of the essence of light ab initio- but became the yin to its yang as it were - but nontheless partook of some element of the same nature.

Wow...I didn't think I would ever be able to stump you, halfir! Actually, I didn't think anyone could ever stump you.

The explanation about the sunlight makes sense. I hadn't really thought through the connection between the Flame of Udun and Flame of Anor. Thank you.

I need to devote more thought to the Water issue, though. I find myslrf going back to the one line in bold above, describing the Balrog as being a 'thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake," trying to somehow figure out why this is. And I'm not getting anywhere. But at least I didn't say anything about Balrogs and wings!

Ragnelle: That’s a very nice piece of lateral thinking.  However I cannot comment on its veracity! 

I do, however, think you could be  on the right track. I say this because in an earlier draft Tolkien partially reflects  your concept in his thinking:

"he was a thing of slime, strong as a strangling snake, sleek as ice, pliant as a thong, unbreakable as steel." {The Treason of Isengard- The White Rider) (my bold emphasis)

That earlier draft also contains the lines that Gandalf, clutching at the Balrog’s heel:

’set my teeth into it like a hunting hound and tasted venom’

This led me to think of the shape-changing abilities of the Maiar, and that the Balrog had shape-shifted in a desperate attempt to overcome in his battle with Gandalf.

Such a shape would be highly appropriate:

"far under the living earth....{where} the earth is gnawed by nameless things" (TT-The White Rider)

The Balrog- as it were- shape-shifts to adapt to this new environment!

Just a thought!

I think , however, this one will puzzle us for some time, and I will too also give it some further thought. It’s a question I have never seen asked before- which makes it all the more interesting.

The Balrog- as it were- shape-shifts to adapt to this new environment!

Just a thought!

A fasinating thought. I have not thought about shape-shifters in ME. I'll have to think a bit more about it.

Light and Life do seem to go somewhat hand-in-hand in Tolkien. My favorite contrast to this has always been Ungoliant, who consumes everything in her path and is never satiated, and belches forth darkness and decay. 'Food' for her does not bring sustenance, or any of the positive aspects of eating, and so it seems that light/life has no affect on her as a result.

I'm not explaining that mental connection very well, so if I make no sense, ask and I will try to clarify.

Halfir-

I can't recall if you ever mentioned this in the first thread, but in reading BOLT1 (first time for me!) I was struck by the mention of the Room of the Log Fire in "The Cottage of Lost Play":

"A fair room it was as might be felt even by the fire-flicker which danced upon the walls and low ceiling, while deep shadows lay in the nooks and corners. Round the great hearth was a multitude of soft rugs and yielding cushions strewn; and a little to one side was a deep chair with carven arms and feet. And so it was that Eriol felt at that time and at all others whereon he entered there at the hour of tale-telling,...

...'That,' said Varië, 'is the Tale-fire blazing in the Room of Logs; there does it burn all through the year, for 'tis a magic fire, and greatly aids the teller in his tale..." (My bold emphasis)

I know that early on, we'd discussed the connection between story-telling and fires (I seem to recall mention of campfires...?), so this part of the Tale could not slip past my notice without making me think of this thread.

I just wanted to post it, should we ever want to refer back to it.

I am sorry but what letter are we on? Sorry that I haven't been here! Yes, fire was and is a camping/storytelling thing, thanks Mireth! Though things were used in different, ways, I almost have my speech thing together about the elves and fire, though I do not know nearly as much as everybody else, so don't think little of me if mine seems immature.

We are still on:

E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun

and my own contribution regarding Morgoth is still owing- but I too have currently got very heavy RL commitments.

But please, let's stick with E for the time being.

MG: Thanks for the reminder quote. I used it in another thread to suggest that the fire in 'The Hall of Fire' -FOTR- Many Meetings was either the same as or very reminiscent of the Tale Fire from BOLT-1.

halfir- we seemed to have ground down to a halt here. Any ideas as to how we should jumpstart this thread? I'd hate to see it die, but I'm out of ideas on this topic.

I realize that I never fully fleshed out my comment about Shelob, but I'm having difficulty clarifying myself. I'll try harder though, if you're prefer to keep the discussion on the current topic for a while longer.

As we seem to have currently exhausted our thoughts on Melkor/Morgoth and Fire let's move on to our next topic which is:

F. Sauron and Fire- Elrond 3

Elrond 3 are you still up for this? Please let us know.

As far as Morgoth is concerned feel free to add any further comments as we go through the other topics, a point which applies indeed to any of the topics previously covered.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Elrond 3 is no longer with us, as I have seen no posts under that name for some time. If that is the case can we please have a volunteer to give us a lead-in to the topic:

F. Sauron and Fire

Thank you!

CD: That's entirely up to you. Have a look at some of the other introductions to get a flavor of what is usually given, and if you feel up to it, then we would be most appreciative of your posting the next intro.

Basically the intro seeks to make a number of fundamental points or comments which then provide the basis for on-going discussion.

There's the fire/heat associated w/ smithying, which he so famously did...the lightning he defied when the Valar warned Numenor...oh, yeah, and the heat he radiated in corporaleality when he toasted Gil-Galad.  For some reason less comes to mind in conjunction w/ him, but I bet you'll do an awesome job, Mireth.

Here we have the first time Sauron and fire end up in the same sentence, and it is in reference to Sauron burning Nimloth, the White Tree of Numenor. As I said, unlike with Melkor, this is an active use of fire. Sauron burns the tree, and uses fire as a method of destruction. It is not an inherent quality of Sauron, but rather one of his tools.

We see this same active use of fire continued, also in reference to the Temple. “Sauron withdrew into the inmost circle of the Temple, and men brought him victims to be burned.”- Akallabeth. Here, instead of using fire to burn the White Tree, Sauron uses it more gruesomely to burn Men. While it seems more brutal to us, it is still the same active use of fire as a method of destruction.

The next mention of fire is somewhat different. “and Sauron forged it in the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow”- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. Here Sauron uses fire actively, but to create the One Ring.

The next description of fire, in connection with Sauron, is altogether different from the others thus far. “To them Sauron was both king and god; and they feared him exceedingly, for he surrounded his abode with fire.”- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age. ‘Them’ in this quote means the Men who dwelt beneath Sauron’s command. The difference between this quote and the ones above is that Sauron is not actively using fire, neither to create nor to destroy. In this description, fire is more an inherent quality of his abode, a la Melkor-style. Perhaps this marks Sauron’s switch from being Melkor’s General to being the next Dark Lord.

Then again, perhaps not. As we continue through the text, we find an explanation for why Sauron chose Mordor and Oroduin to be his dwelling place. “There above the valley of Gorgoroth was built his fortress vast and strong, Barad-dыr, the Dark Tower; and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before, for he used the fire that welled there from the heart of the earth in his sorceries and in his forging.” - Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, my bold emphasis. In this passage, Sauron is once again using the fires ‘in his sorceries and in his forging.’ Or is this passage speaking past-tense, and this active use of fire merely a re-telling of the uses alreadymmentioned, namely the forging of the One Ring?

“Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again.” –Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, my bold emphasis. I find this line intriguing, for it somehow seems to endow Sauron with the ability to waken the flames of Orodruin, whereas in the previous passage, the mountain itself was described as ‘fiery.’ Has Sauron, as Dark Lord, achieved a mastery over Fire that he did not have before, or is this a different use of language to describe the same active use of Fire as a tool?

The final excerpt from the Silmarillion that I will throw into this is meant to illustrate a kind of symbolic balance where Sauron is concerned. “…there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed. Then Sauron failed, and he was utterly vanquished and passed away like a shadow of malice..” – Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, my bold emphasis. Here we see Frodo using the Fire as a tool as well, also for the purposes of destruction. Yet, this time, it is not only the Ring that is destroyed, but Sauron himself. He was defeated by his own tool.

Yet, this time, it is not only the Ring that is destroyed, but Sauron himself. He was defeated by his own tool

Or, as Thedoen put it, albeit in a differnt context:

' of evil will shall evil mar' (TT-The Palantir)

And your observation that:

(he’s not quite “Melkor the Sequel” until the end of the Third Age, really

is one with which I totally concur. Both in Morgoth's Ring (HOME10) and Letter # 183 Tolkien observes that Sauron loyally served Morgoth until the latter's banishment to the Void. But even then:

By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's repreentative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.)  (Letter # 183)

Unlike Melkor, Sauron is not physically associated with Fire in the Silmarillion

Not explicitly perhaps in the way of Melkor but he is by association in the sense that he is a Maia of Aule and thus associate with smithying and thus fire.

And in the first thread on this topic:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=7141&PagePosition=6

I commented in one post:

In Zoroastrianism fire is the symbol of the Godhead (flame of Anor/The Flame Imperishable) but the destructive aspect of fire implies a negative aspect and to be “The Lord of the Fire’ is a function of the Devil.

{Interestingly enough the blacksmith’s forge is simultaneously the fire of heaven (Aule) and the flames of Hell (Morgoth/Sauron).}

Something that I was wondering about,

If Sauron was not using fire in the Sil, then how is Frodo related to Fire, while Sauron is not? Perhaps clarify because I'm a little confused.

Now Sauron prepared war against the Eldar and the Men of Westernesse, and the fires of the Mountain were wakened again.”

Yes, this is very interesing, I like how it refers to the fires of the Mountain, like that the fire is somehow always in the mountain.

Well, Sauron is using fire in the Sil, the difference that was drawn (I believe) was that he uses it at need, rather than being surrounded by it whether he's active or idle; Morgoth on the other hand seemed to feel that fire was to his keeps and realms as white paint is to apartment walls.  Even when Sauron is finally surrounded by fire at Barad-Dur, he uses it for his sorceries, etc.  In his defeat, Fire becomes a tool used by goodness to destroy him. 

Now, as for the waking of the fires in the Mountain, I do think that's interesting.  He moves there to use the mountain's fire, suffers some setbacks, defeats, low profile, what have you, and in that  time I think we can assume that Orodruin remained a fiery (volcanic) mountain - but when he uses them (and to use them in preparing for war, he must be using it to create and/or for sorcery, for it will be in said war he'll be destroying) they are wakened.  So that Fire is awake (alive? conscious? sentient?) when Sauron uses it to create.  Was Morgoth/Melkor ever so interactive with flames, much though he used them?  Would we expect less from the golden Maia of a smithy godling?

Oh, and it hardly need be pointed out that he dwells by the Mountain of Fire in the Land of Shadow - an absence of Light attending an Evil use of Fire yet again.

I am sorry that I have not been active in this tread latly, but thank you, Mireth, for resurecting it.

One reason for Sauron not to be assosiated with fire in The Silmarillion in the same way as Morgoth, could also be that is is simply to much with two burning Dark Lords at once. Morgoth would be far less intimedating if there were two of him, at least to the reader. (I would not want to face two of him, one is enough to deal with.) When Morgoth disapears from the scene, there is need of a new Dark Lord to fill his place - or there would be no more stories. Sauron is then free to fill that empty space, but as with the King of Gondor, this takes time.

Ragnelle, you make an interesting point, but I like to offer a different spin on it.

I don't really think it's so much a matter of there being two Dark Lords simultaneously, because that would somehow imply that a certain association with Fire makes one a Dark Lord or not (and I do not believe that you are suggesting this.) Even had Sauron been associated with Fire a la Melkor-style from the beginning of his stint as Melkor's Maia, he still could not have competed with Melkor. Melkor was a Vala, and a powerful one at that, whereas Sauron was a Maia. Melkor would always have been more powerful.

But I find it interesting that, after Melkor is banished into the Void, Sauron begins to mimic his style, almost as though he is trying to emulate Melkor, to become "Melkor the Sequel", instead of establishing his own independant character as Dark Lord. Compare the following (it's kind of like playing "Guess the Ainu!):

"And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any of the other Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire..."--Ainulindale, my bold emphasis. Here we see Melkor associated with a fiery mountain. Now recall the quote from the Silmarillion: "and there was a fiery mountain in that land that the Elves named Orodruin. Indeed, for that reason Sauron had set there his dwelling long before..." (my bold emphasis).

This goes hand in hand with the excerpt from Letter #183, which halfir provided. "By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth's repreentative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned." (my bold emphasis). Sauron uses fire, and dwells at Orodruin, in deliberate mimicry of Melkor. He doesn't just want to be a Dark Lord, he wants to be the Dark Lord.

He doesn’t just want to be a Dark Lord, he wants to be the Dark Lord.

Excellently put. In HOME 10 Morgoth’s Ring Tolkien makes it clear that while Morgoth was in evidence Sauron served him loyally. But, after Morgoth’s banishment to the void, as the footnote to Letter # 183 states and MG has ably expanded on, Sauron progressively moves himself into being the Numero Uno of evil.

In doing this he is reminscent of those who fall prey to the corruption of power that Lord Acton spoke of in his famous letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton:

’Power tends to corrupt and asolute power corrupts absolutely’.

I don't really think it's so much a matter of there being two Dark Lords simultaneously, because that would somehow imply that a certain association with Fire makes one a Dark Lord or not (and I do not believe that you are suggesting this.)

True, in part. While I do not thing association with fire makes one a Dark Lord it is still  matter of imagery. The Balrogs are conected with fire, but they do not appear as personalities in teh same way Sauron does. They are conected with Morgogh and thus part of his assosiation with fire, but Sauron would easily be too simular to Morgoth.

Fire does not make a Dark Lord, but many Dark Lords are associated with fire. In most European minds at least. So a powerful image of a Dark Lord would in most cases include some burning. That would go for the Dark Lord as well. Perhaps that is way Sauron is mimicking?

’Power tends to corrupt and asolute power corrupts absolutely’.

I have a question about this statement, if absolute power corrupts absolutely then why do some of the people in power are mostly good and try to be good. Perhaps this means if say Eru is the absolute good and that cannot be waived, good can exist without evil but evil cannot exist without good, but if power corrupts then what about Tom Bombadil, he is not at all corrupted yet he has plenty of power, but going back to the statement, it is only "tends to corrupt". According to the Webster Dictionary, Absolute means ": free from control, restriction, or qualification , from that we see that Eru has no restriction but yet he continues not to be corrupted.
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated.  All rights reserved.

Mireth: Both your input and my thread have falterd somewhat and I am minded - like Gandalf with Narya to do a little rekindling. I am going to repost the topic headings but leave them open insofar as contributors are concerned as amny- myself included have falen by the wayside.

Can you confirm that you wish to continue the Sauron section or not. Thanks

A Rekindling

This is a rekindling of our discussion on the use of Fire in the writings of JRR Tolkien. Those wishing to familiarize themselves with earlier points should go to:

http://www.lotrplaza.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=46&TopicID=7141&PagePosition=1

The subject will be dealt with under a number of topic headings.

Each topic will be proceeded by an introductory post giving an overview to that topic. Then we will post coments related to that topic until a natural point of ';exhaustion'; appears to have been reached. We will then proceed to the next topic.

In looking at the way Tolkien uses fire I suggest that we cast that word in the widest possible context- from the greed ';kindled'; by Sauron';s rings to the watch fires used to summon the allies of Gondor. So all references to fire/ flame/light/burning/kindle/ kindling/warmth/warming/burning/burn  etc should be explored.

The topics - and order- currently suggested- are as follows:

The Use of ';Fire'; in the Works of JRR Tolkien with Particular Reference to The Silmarillion and LOTR

A. The Promethean Legacy- Fire in the wider mythic cosmogony - Halfir

B. Fire in The Silmarillion and LOTR - general observations- Khelektari

C. Fire as Eru';s instrument -Khelektari

D. Fire and the Valar- Melethril

E. Morgoth and the flame of Udun- Ragnelle

F. Sauron and Fire- Mireth Guilbain(?)

G. Gandalf and the flame of Anor-Halfir

G1.Saruman and Fire - Open

H. The Istari and Fire - Open

I.The Elves and fire - Open

J. Men and Fire - Ragnelle

K. The Dwarves and fire - Geir

L. The Hobbits and Fire - Eorlhelm

M. The Ents and fire - Open

N. The Palantiri and Fire -Open

O. Tolkien';s use of Fire in his Minor Works- Halfir

P.Major themes associated with Fire in The Silmarillion and LOTR- Open

Q. Review and Conclusions Open

Topics that do not have a name beside them still await authors for their introduction and you are cordially invited to propose yourself for that role for any topic/s that are of paticular interest to you.

I know that we had earmarked individuals before but as some time has passed since we did so I am reopening the sections in case those earlier authors are no longer available.

If you still wish to contribute to your original or any section please confirm it with your name by a post to this thread giving the relevant Letter and title of the section you wish to  introduce.

We are currently in the middle of F Sauron and Fire

Eorlhelm: On the basis of first come first served in our renewed thread you may indeed. I have altered the master list accordingly:

L. The Hobbits and Fire - Eorlhelm

I have read many of these posts on Balrogs and Fire, and have found this to be a very  interesting point.  I hope I can elaborate a little more on this point.

Now Balrogs were originally Maiar, but Maiar who turned to evil with Morgoth.  However, there still exist some Maiar, obviously, who remain good.  The main one of these I wish to address, however, is the sun itself:  "The maiden whom the Valar chose from among the Maiaar to guide the vessel of the Sun was named Arien...In the days of the Trees Arien had tended the golden flowers in the gardens of Vana, and watered them with the bright dews of Laurelin...Arien the maiden was mightier than he (Isil, the moon) and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Laurelin, and was unhurt by them, being from the beginning a spirit of fire, whom Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service.  Too bright were the eyes of Arien for even the Eldar to look on, and leaving Valionor she forsook the form and raiment which like the Valar she had worn there, and she was as a naked flame, terrible in the fullness of her splendor."  Silmarillion, Of the Sun and Moon.

Okay, so as this passage indicates, some of the Maiar obviously have traits of fire, as did, at one time, the Balrog that Gandalf slew.  However, it also seems to me that some of the Maia did not have these fiery traits, as Tolkien specifies Balrogs as 'scourges of fire' and here specifies Arien as a 'spirit of fire.'  Now also, it appears (to me, anyways) that Morgoth had perverted fire to his own uses.  He could pervert or defile seemingly anything, including ents, elves, and men.  Why not fire?  However, this is not the focus of this post.

Rather, fire seems, to me anyways, to be a symbol of power.  Feanor had a spirit of fire within him, and was also the greatest elf who ever lived.  Thus, fire seems to be symbolic of greatness, as Arien, when she was most glorious, 'was as a naked flame.'  Thus, it seems to me to be that fire, in the case of both Arien and balrogs, is a display of power here, and though the heat of the fire can be used as a weapon, it is, I think, more likely that it is a defining power of the one who has it, esp. as Arien, the spirit of fire, was greater than Isil, who was not this sort of spirit.

Ragnelle: Thanks so much. You have already contributed greatly  to this thread and I must apologize for letting the fire die down! However, now that it';s rekindled I will ensure it continues to burn brightly. (Enough of these awful metaphors!)

J. Men and Fire - Ragnelle

I have added a further category as I somewhat overlooked Saruman in my earlier creation of this topic. Please note as

G1 Saruman and Fire - Open

Geir: Are you still available for

K. The Dwarves and Fire ?

Geir: Thanks so much. By all means post when you are ready. This is not a thread that needs to follow the linear progresssion I have set out- that is simply to identify topics to be covered.

May I make that as a general observation to all.While we are currently on Sauron if you wish to write an introduction to another topoic, but wish to do so now, that is alright- but let me know in advance.

This applies to topic introductions only.Clearly once the topic is introduced anyone may comment on it.

K. The Dwarves and fire - Geir

Sauron and Fire: An observation

Mireth Guilbain  in her excellent introduction to Sauron and Fire has drawn a distinction between Sauron';s use  and relationship with fire pre- and post the departure of his great master- Morgoth- into the Void.

Up to the time of Morgoth';s banishment Sauron served him well:

While Morgoth still stood, Sauron did not seek his own supremacy, but worked and schemed for another, desiring the triumph of Melkor , whom in the beginning he had adored.'; (HOME 10 Morgoth';s Ring Myths Transfomed Text 10)

and because of this:

'; He remained less corrupt, cooler, and more capable of calculation. At least in the Elder Days and before he was bereft of his lord and fell into the folly of imitating him and and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth.'; (ibid)

And an extensive footnote to Letter # 183 tells us:

';By the end of the Second Age he assumed the position of Morgoth';s representative. By the end of the Third Age (though actually much weaker than before) he claimed to be Morgoth returned.

In the Morgoth phase Sauron- as perhaps befits a maiar of Aule was using fire as a tool, unlike his great master Morgoth who saw it as part of his own self-embodiment:

';but because of the mood and malice that burned within him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any other of the Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire; and the light of the eyes of Melkor was like a flame that withers with heat and pierces with a deadly cold.'; {The Silmarillion- Ainulindale)

With Morgoth';s departure and Sauron';s increasing self- aggrandizement from able lieutenant- grieving follower- to God-king himself :

';When he {Tar Calion the Golden} learned that Sauron had taken the title of King of Kings and Lord of the World'; (Letter # 131)

the able lieutenant seeks increasingly to replace the Master that he had previously so loyally served- and in doing so, starts making the same mistakes and walking down the same primrose path that he did.

Feigning fear at the the power of Numenor- and being deserted by his servants and allies - he is carried off to Numenor where  he incites the Numenoreans to rebel against the Ban of the Valar- with fatal consequences for them and near fatal consequences for himself.

After the Drowning of Numenor he flees to ME:

';a spirit of hatred borne on a dark wind'; (Letter # 211)

fortunate to have escaped total anihilation as a result of  the anger of Eru. (ibid)

At this point the

the mood and malice that burned within him that form was dark and terrible{The Silmarillion- Ainulindale)

but now it is Sauron, not Morgoth we are talking about.

The :

less corrupt, cooler, and more capable of calculation (HOME 10 Morgoth';s Ring Myths Transfomed Text 10)

Sauron has disappeared and the

 folly of imitating him{Morgoth} and and endeavoring to become himself supreme Lord of Middle-earth (ibid)

is about to become physically manifest in his incarnate form - and fire is to become an aspect of his persona rather than a tool that he uses!

But this internal fire is

';the fire than devours and wastes'; (UT - The Istari)

and it is Sauron'; himself who is devoured and wasted.

No longer Annatar the beautiful - ';whose hue was still that of one both fair and wise'; (The Silmarillion- Of the Rings of Power)

now unable to

';veil his power (as Gandalf did) and ..appear as a commanding figure of great strength of  body and supremely royal dmenaour and countenance (Letter #246)

He is

unablee ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was though terror alone." (LotR, Appendix A.)

From the time of the Drowning of Numenor Sauron can no longer reporesent himself in fair - form.

He becomes black and burning:

';The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron';s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire'; (FOTR-The Council of Elrond)

and it is that heat that destroyed Gil-galad. (ibid)

The outward sign of inward grace has undergone a total inversion- we now have the outward sign of inward malice and evil:

Even his visible form he [Morgoth] could no longer master, so that its hideousness could not any longer be masked, and it showed forth the evil of his mind. So it was also with even some of his greatest servants, as in these later days we see: they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds, and if these bodies were taken from them or destroyed, they were nullified, until they had rebuilt a semblance of their former habitations, with which they could continue the evil courses in which they had become fixed ( ำsanwe-kenta - my bold emphasis and underline. I owe this incredibly important quote and indeed a copy of the whole Osanwe- kenta essay to the kindness of Geir, Hoth, and BB

It was not the will or anger of Eru that forced the change in physical representation that was visited upon Sauron after the drowning of Numenor- it was his own folly in following virtually step by step the path already laid out by his great predecessor and mentor- Morgoth:

they became wedded to the forms of their evil deeds,

From using fire as a tool to adopting fire as part of his persona- as Mireth Guilbain';s excellent introduction pointed out, Sauron himself becomes both an embodiment of and a victim to the neagtive spiritual fire that:

devours and wastes.