President Bush; Author David Ray Griffin
There’s nothing the least bit wild-eyed
or hysterical about David Ray Griffin. In person, he’s disarmingly
calm, and speaks in the unflappably precise and deliberate style of a
lifelong academic. Which is exactly what Griffin is. A respected philosopher
of religion at the Claremont School of Theology since the 1970s and longtime
Santa Barbara resident, Griffin is now raising questions that even President
Bush’s harshest critics are afraid to think, let alone ask aloud.
In his latest book, The New Pearl Harbor — released just two weeks
ago — Griffin all but accuses the Bush administration of taking
a dive on September 11 and giving Al Qaeda terrorists an unobstructed
shot at the World Trade Center. According to Griffin, a case can be made
that the Bush administration arranged the attack, or allowed it to happen.
He is aware that he may be dismissed as a conspiracy nut, but given the
“transcendent importance” of the issue, Griffin is willing
to assume that risk and has taken to repeating Michael Moore’s line
on the subject: “Personally, I’m not into conspiracy theories
except those that are true.” I met with Griffin over coffee to discuss
his book and the September 11 investigation. The following is an edited
account of their conversation.
Is there a smoking gun that shows the Bush administration knew
9/11 was likely to happen and did nothing about it?
DAVID RAY GRIFFIN: I think there are
four. One is the fact that standard operating procedures for dealing with
possibly hijacked airplanes were not followed on 9/11. Those procedures
call for fighter jets to be sent out immediately upon any sign that a
plane may have been hijacked. These jets typically get to the plane within
no later than 15 minutes anywhere in the United States. And on that day,
there were four airplanes that went for a half-hour or more after they
were hijacked without jets intercepting them.
What’s the official explanation of that?
I’m afraid the press has not done its job. They have not forced
government officials to explain why standard operating procedures were
not followed that day, nor have they pressed the FAA (Federal Aviation
Administration) to explain why they didn’t report these hijackings
as they were supposed to. The official story is that [the fighter jets]
were very late.
And the other smoking guns?
The second strongest piece of evidence I would say is the crash at the
Pentagon. The physical evidence contradicts so violently the official
account, that the Pentagon was hit by a Boeing 757 — Flight 77,
that is. The physical evidence, photographs, and eyewitness testimony
say that the Pentagon was hit by something that caused a hole no larger
than 18 feet in diameter. The story the Pentagon put out, and was published
by the Washington Post, was that the hole in the Pentagon was five stories
high and 200 feet wide. If you look at the photographs taken by Tom Horan
of the Associated Press — that’s just not the size of the
But if the hole was only 18 feet wide, it had to have been created by
something other than a Boeing. Whatever went into the Pentagon pierced
six reinforced walls. This was the west wing, the part of the Pentagon
being refurbished and reinforced. These walls were extra strong, and yet
whatever it was went through six walls creating a hole about seven feet
in diameter in the sixth wall. This had to have been something with a
very powerful head on it. A Boeing 757 has a very fragile nose, and would
not have pierced through all those walls; it would have been crushed by
hitting the Pentagon. And given that it only penetrated these three rings,
the rest of the aircraft would have been sitting outside on the yard.
And yet the photographs taken just as the fire trucks got there —
very shortly after the crash — show no plane whatsoever.
What do they show?
They show no aircraft whatsoever. And everyone agrees on this. The official
story is that the whole aircraft went inside the Pentagon. The problem
with that — the firefighters in there would have seen the airplane.
They would have seen the engines, they would have seen the aluminum fuselage,
but they reported nothing. Ed Plower, the fire chief, when asked what
he saw, said, “I didn’t see any big pieces, no fuselage, no
engines, no nothing.” But about a month later, when asked he said,
“Oh yes, I saw all that.” His memory had had time to be refreshed.
If what you’re saying is accurate —
that it was a missile — then what happened to the plane and all
the people on it?
That’s why I stress I’m not trying to give an account of what
really happened. I have no idea what happened to Flight 77.
President Bush has also been criticized for
behaving somewhat bizarrely that day.
As he and the Secret Service got word that a second plane had crashed
into the World Trade Center and that three planes had been hijacked, there
could have been no possible doubt in their mind that the United States
was under terrorist attack . . . The most horrendous attack the United
States had ever suffered. And they would have had to assume that one or
more of them were heading toward President Bush himself. And so upon learning
about this, the Secret Service surely would have whisked him away immediately.
In fact, one Secret Service agent on the scene said, “We’re
out of here.” But obviously he got overruled because President Bush
stayed there. After Andrew Card reported the second crash on the World
Trade Center, the president just nodded as if he understood and said,
“We’re going to go ahead with the reading lesson.” And
he sat there another 15 minutes listening to the children read a story
about a pet goat. This was a photo op and when it was over he lingered
around talking to the children and talking to the teacher.
Bill Sammon, of the Washington Times, wrote a very pro-Bush book, yet
he comments how casual and relaxed the president was given the fact he’d
just learned the country was under attack. He said Bush took his own sweet
time and in fact called him “Our Dawdler in Chief.” And then
the president went on national TV, going forward with an interview that
had been planned and announced in advance . . . then they took their regularly
scheduled motorcade back to the airport. In other words, [Bush and the
Secret Service] showed no fear whatsoever that they would be targeted
for attack, which strongly suggests they knew how many aircraft were being
hijacked and what their targets were.
Couldn’t it have been that he was trying
to project calm in the eye of the storm, that this was Bush projecting
Churchillian resolve in the face of calamity?
People who want to believe such things can, of course, imagine such scenarios.
But the president in a situation like that does not make the decisions;
the Secret Service team makes the decisions. And the guys in the Secret
Service are trained to be ready for a catastrophe like this where they
make snap decisions and whisk the president to safety immediately. They
would have had an escape route planned; they would have had contingencies
planned — they always do. It is at least not very plausible to think
they would have remained there and endangered the lives of all the children
and teachers at that school in order to exude that Churchillian confidence.
What about the plane thatcrashed down?
We know that on Flight 93, which crashed over Pennsylvania, the passengers
were trying to get control of the aircraft. They had decided the hijackers
did not have bombs and probably didn’t even have guns. And because
their plane didn’t take off until a half-hour after the others,
they knew that the others had crashed into the World Trade Center —
so they knew they were going to die anyway, even if they didn’t
do anything. So as one of the passengers is saying, “They’re
doing it, they’re forcing their way into the cabin, they’re
going to make it.” As soon as that happened, with the FBI listening
in, the plane went down. There was a whoosh, then the sound of wind. And
people on the ground reported hearing what Vietnam veterans said sounded
like a missile. Furthermore, there was debris from the plan eight miles
from the crash site, suggesting the plane had been hit and stuff started
falling out. And one of the engines was found over a mile from the crash
site. Of course, if it had been a missile that downed the plane, it most
likely would have been a heat-seeking missile that would have found the
engine and knocked it off.
Why would the government have an interest in
So the hijackers couldn’t speak to anyone?
That would be a very good reason. If it were a conspiracy and the hijackers
knew about it, it would have been very threatening to those who made the
plan to have anybody left alive. Again, I don’t pretend to know,
but that’s at least a plausible scenario. There were many rumors
that day that the plane was shot down, but the government denied it.
You suggest that the World Trade Center buildings
must have been detonated with explosives to account for the heat generated
and the speed the structures collapsed on themselves. That sounds extreme.
What’s the evidence?
The evidence is cumulative — several things that point to controlled
demolition. First, a steel-framed building, according to all the reading
I’ve done, has never collapsed solely because of fire. They will
bend and buckle in a very large all-consuming fire that lasts for a very
long time. But they have never collapsed.
But it was not just fire — it was fire
and impact at the same time.
The twin towers were very large buildings and extremely well built with
a lot of redundancy. Even people who believe the official theory say that
the crash of the plane into the towers should have been insignificant,
that the shock would have been immediate, but it was over very soon and
that the buildings were extremely solid and stable and not moving. In
the south tower, much of the fuel from it spilled outside as it collided
into the corner. So there was a giant firebomb which looked very impressive,
but what that means is that most of the fuel was burned up within a minute,
so there was not much fuel inside. Therefore, the fire in the south tower
had almost gone out in less than an hour. And that brings us to another
strange fact about the towers. If the official story were correct, that
the combination of the crash and the fire brought the buildings down,
we would expect the north tower to have come down first, because it was
hit first. And yet the south tower collapsed first. It collapsed in less
than an hour. That makes perfect sense if you’re willing to accept
that it was caused by controlled demolition, meaning the building was
wired with explosives. And if the official story has it that the buildings
were brought down by fire, you’d want the buildings to go down before
the fire had completely gone out.
What you’re suggesting sounds like something
from. X-Files. But on X-Files, you always had agents Scully and Mulder
trying to get the truth out. Here we don’t have any Scullys and
Mulders. You’d think this whole new unilateral expression of military
supremacy might have opponents within the administration coming unglued
and that they’d be leaking info damaging to Bush, but we don’t
hear those voices. Why not?
Members of the FBI, the CIA, and other intelligence agencies have taken
oaths to not reveal things they’ve been told not to reveal . . .
and if they violate this oath, repercussions may occur. You have a wife
and children, and somebody says to you, “If you go public with that
I cannot guarantee the safety of your family.” Would you go public
with that? You have to choose between your family’s welfare and
the welfare of the nation, and your story might not do that much good.
You might just be denounced as a conspiracy kook. The press would ignore
you, belittle you. People might look into your past and find that you
had done some things you’re not so proud of. People would learn
very quickly to keep their mouths shut.
Let’s say there has been this complicity. To what end?
There were several benefits that could have been anticipated from 9/11.
One was the so-called Patriot Act. It did appear that the Patriot Act,
given how fast it was rushed into Congress, voting had already been prepared.
The Patriot Act is so large that it’s inconceivable it could have
been written after 9/11. Rushing it through Congress when most members
had not even read a small portion of it was clearly one benefit, giving
the government increased powers.
Also, there was the desire to wage war in Afghanistan to force out the
Taliban and put an American-friendly government in place because of the
desire of Unical and other gas companies to build an oil pipeline, which
they felt was too dangerous with the Taliban in power. There was a meeting
in Berlin in July 2001, a final effort to get an agreement between the
Taliban and the United States that would allow a sort of joint government,
where the Taliban would share power with more American-friendly leaders.
The Taliban refused, at which point they were told, “If you don’t
take our carpet of gold, we’ll bury you under a carpet of bombs.”
The Pakistani representative at this meeting said the Americans told him
that the war would start before the snows came that October. And after
9/11 happened, there was exactly the right amount of time for the U.S.
forces to get organized to begin the war, and the war began on October
Another benefit is that many senior members of the Bush administration
had for a long time wanted to attack Iraq. Getting control of the oil
there was one motive; the more general motive was to secure a military
presence in that part of the world.
Don’t you think it’s a good thing
that Saddam Hussein was taken out, and don’t you think Bush had
a moral obligation to do so because it was his father who was responsible
for building up Hussein in the first place?
Certainly you can say there were some benefits to the people of Iraq.
But if we had an obligation to take out Saddam Hussein then we have obligations
to take out many other nefarious leaders around the world, many of whom
are far worse, believe it or not, than Saddam Hussein. And the sorry history
is that we have in fact supported such leaders and that Saddam Hussein
was in power only because of American support. He remained in power after
gassing the Kurds became common knowledge. Donald Rumsfeld himself visited
Saddam at that period. Actually our aid to Saddam went up after we knew
that he had done this.
So you think this is mostly about oil.
It is to a significant extent about oil, given the projections that the
world is beginning to run out
of oil. The United States wants to get control of it because our way of
life, which is so dependent upon oil, is nonnegotiable. And also because
military dominance itself runs to great extent on oil. But it’s
not just about oil. It’s about geopolitical dominance. And this
brings up the U.S. Space command. In the document “Rebuilding America’s
Defenses,” published in 2000 by the Project for the New American
Century — an organization founded by people such as [Richard] Perle
and [Paul] Wolfowitz and [Dick] Cheney and Rumsfeld — there is a
statement in there that says we need to move forward with this revolution
in military affairs. The central feature of this is the augmentation of
the U.S. Space Command through which the United States would have what’s
called now Full Spectrum Dominance. In addition to having dominance over
land, air, and sea, we would have dominance in space. But building the
space stations and the satellites for the weaponization of space will
be an extremely expensive undertaking. One projection has the first stage
of it being about a trillion dollars. So an enormous amount of money has
to be shifted from the American taxpayers and other parts of the economy
to the military and the space command. The document states that such a
revolution in military affairs will probably proceed very slowly absent
some catastrophic and catalyzing event such as a new Pearl Harbor.
Hence the title of your book . . . You’ve
complained the American media has been asleep at the switch on this. How
do you account for this?
It is very difficult for Americans to face the possibility that their
own government may have caused or deliberately allowed such a heinous
event. Secondly, one can understand that insofar as the media is owned
by companies like General Electric, which is one of the largest makers
of weapons, stations like NBC that are owned by GE would not wish to publicize
these connections. And finally, 9/11 was immediately treated not only
as a matter of patriotism but almost as a religious event. Bush declared
his war on terrorism from the national cathedral. And so from then on,
any questioning of the official account could be and was criticized as
being undemocratic and almost sacrilegious.
I at least hope that if we can begin to get a public discussion of 9/11
and of the many, many discrepancies between the official story and what
at least appear to be the facts, that some of those people might be emboldened
to step forward.
How has researching and writing this book affected
you personally?I fear that our democracy is in much worse shape than I
had imagined, and that even the appearance of democracy we now have might
be quickly swept aside.