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AuthorTopic: New to torque
Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 16:12 GMT       

Hey, me and a bud are new to video game creation, however we know all about animating, modeling, and a bit of programming. Basically im starting this thread as a help section for myself, or anyone who decides to come to this site later on like I have. Now my first question is this, how does programming really tie into the engine? I used the demo and it seemed pretty much like a level editor or map editor. Plus, how much money on average do the games make when they are posted on this site? ...just for kicks.

Ted Southard
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 16:28 GMT       

Well, the amount of money a game makes is a bit of info you´ll probably never find out, but it´s enough to make you happy, if not enough to get you to quit your day job.

As for programming, the demo doesn´t expose the source of the engine, just the script and editors. The editors do what they do and do it well, but the real power lays in the scripting and access to the source code. It really depends on what you want to do with the engine. If you want to do simple gameplay, you can most likely get away with scripting it, since scripting is very powerful.

However, if you want to do things that the stock TGE doesn´t do, or expand it, then you should buy the license, which gives you access to the source and the ability to add whatever features you like to the engine, within your abilities.

Hope that answers the question for ya... Welcome to the GG community.

Ted Southard
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 16:35 GMT       

Another thing, which I forgot to menton... Check out the IRC channel, and go through the forums regularly. There´s a huge amount of info out there, and then when you pick up info, you can pass it on and help those who are new as well...

Steve Scarborough
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 16:36 GMT       

The demo really is just the built in tools that Torque has. However, by buying the SDK you can (with sufficient programming knowledge) adjust the basic behavior of the engine. A great example would be the Marble Blast development story which can be read by all in the SDK documentation. In short, GarageGames changed the shadow code and also implemented Gourad vertex shading to get that unique cartoony look. Also, all the marble physics were written in C++.

As for your second question, the GG FAQ says that their worst selling game makes about $100 per month for the developer and their best selling makes more than $5,000 for the developer. Oh yes, and you can´t sell anything that you built off of the demo, kinda like you can´t sell a mod. There´s another huge advantage to the SDK.

Bryce Suleyman Carrington
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 17:45 GMT       

Let´s see.....I spent $50 to get 3D Game Programming: All in One, which included all of the tools i needed on the CD Rom, I spent $25 to get the full version of MilkShape 3D, I´m going to spend $300 to get Maya or i can get it for Christmas, I may get the BraveTree Tank Pack, which is $35. I guess that sums it up.

$300
50
35
-------
$385

heck, my game is a basic one!

Steve Scarborough
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 22:30 GMT       

@Bryce

Maya for $300? Is this a used copy of a previous version that you´re getting from somewhere? The full version is currently $2,000, so I´m very interested in where you found this bargain.

Joseph Nutt
Member
Posted: Dec 12, 2004 23:24 GMT       

@Bryce.. Not putting TGE on your list then? (you need it if your going to try and sell your game)

Lynn Song
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 00:57 GMT       

@Bryan

Check out www.gametunnel.com
These Independent Games are mostly not made by TGE, but this could help you get better idea of budget stuff, anyways. Iīve seen it varied from $100 to $10,000, ah...

Edited on Dec 13, 2004 01:01 GMT
Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 19:35 GMT       

Ok thanks, a few more questions. To make AI, better water, and better physics, that all has to be done in C++ scripts right? And can I make maps in lightwave, for Torque? I dont really like the levels in torque, plus the demo is odd. The mission based editing is odd, but thanks for all your help.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 19:36 GMT       

Oh one more thing, you talk about the source code so I can edit, or mod the engine right? Well I heard that it makes your games unplayable by people unless they have your engine, whats up with that?

David Blake
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 19:59 GMT       

Quote:

Ok thanks, a few more questions. To make AI, better water, and better physics, that all has to be done in C++ scripts right? And can I make maps in lightwave, for Torque? I dont really like the levels in torque, plus the demo is odd. The mission based editing is odd, but thanks for all your help.

For creating levels, you´ll need a CSG editor such as Quark. Lightwave, Maya, GameSpace, and others have .map exporters, but they are trying to compensate for a type of modeling that most polysoup editors weren´t meant to perform. The creators of the exporters have done a great job, but it´s a lot like using a hammer rather than a screwdriver to pull a screw. Matthew Fairfax has released a nice 3DS for Torque resource that will help you out, though. There´s a lot to figure out, mainly on the collision side of things.

Quote:

Oh one more thing, you talk about the source code so I can edit, or mod the engine right? Well I heard that it makes your games unplayable by people unless they have your engine, whats up with that?

Well, you can break your engine if you do inordinately horrible things to the source, but if you have the source and a new MegaTriPixelXXXCoolCard hits the market with totally new and cool technology, you can write in the new features yourself. This is as opposed to waiting for the original engine developers to decide whether they think it´s a good idea.

Ted Southard
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 20:02 GMT       

- Better AI can be done in scripts. For improvements to physics and water, you´ll have to touch the source code for that.

- Don´t know if you can do maps in LW, but you can use QuARK, Hammer, and if you have the engine source and put the related resource in, Cartography Shop.

About the engine being made unplayable by modding it. It´s basically straightforward: People need the .exe to be able to take advantage of the features you´ve put into it. If you put better physics into the engine, the players will need the exe for that, or else it won´t play right with the missions. That goes with pretty much every game engine out there, as well as commercial applications. It´s an "upgrade" ;)

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:12 GMT       

Is the exe a thing that I have to make? Unfortunately, I had expected game engines to use more of the modeling and presets rather than C++ scripts, I know basics, but I really dont know if I´m ready to program a game. What do you guys suggest I know, and I have the 3d game programming all in one book, too.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:15 GMT       

Oh steve I almost forgot, heres a link for lightwave, cinema 4d, 3ds, and maya for very cheap. http://www.academicsuperstore.com/market/market.html?id=255474&cname=Animation+%26+3D

David Blake
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:17 GMT       

That makes sense.

No commercial use.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:28 GMT       

Oh steve I almost forgot, heres a link for lightwave, cinema 4d, 3ds, and maya for very cheap. http://www.academicsuperstore.com/market/market.html?id=255474&cname=Animation+%26+3D

Master Treb
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:42 GMT       

I´m just wondering what do you mean you can´t sell anything used in the demo game you can keep the basics like game.cs and server information thats neccesary and just not use the crossbow orc or GUI that comes with it or do you need to completely redo it so basically I´m asking how much do you need to get rid of in the demo game for it not to be considered the demo game anymore.

David Blake
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 21:53 GMT       

Basically, if you´re considering making money off of the demo or its associated assets, you´ll need a license.

If you have to ask how much you can get away with, then you´re probably in the "you have to buy it" group.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 22:53 GMT       

Can I make a game not using torque, but still post the game on GG for sale?

David Loomis
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 23:21 GMT       

They will review non-torque games. Gish for instance is not a TGE game.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 23:22 GMT       

Sorry about all questions, really, thanks alot. Im so new to all of this, and I figured might as well start early and by no means am I going to figure this out quickly. Anyway lemme try and wrap up my questions:
-What is the point of adding buttons in the F11 editor?
-How do I start a map from nothing, without a preset land that I have to alter
-Why is it that whenever I try to put my own textures in the "media" part of texture/terrain, nothing happens
-Any tips that you guys have picked up would REALLY help, you seem to know quite a bit more than me ;)

David Loomis
Member
Posted: Dec 13, 2004 23:26 GMT       

What OS are you using?

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 00:15 GMT       

Windows Xp home, Service pack 2. If you need this, Im going to be using lightwave 8 as my 3d source, maybe along with quark from what I hear for map making.

Jeff Houck
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 02:52 GMT       

Quote:

-Any tips that you guys have picked up would REALLY help, you seem to know quite a bit more than me


Here´s the best tips I can think of. Do your homework. Reading Finney´s book is a very good start. Then search these forums for answers to questions. I´m sure someone else probably has already asked them and the answers are here somewhere. 8)

David Blake
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 03:26 GMT       

Also head over to GnomeTech to pick up one hell of a DTS exporter from "Lightwave Dave". And also be on the lookout for Looking Glass, which is his next Big Thing.

David Loomis
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 05:08 GMT       

-adding buttons allows you to customize the GUI to your specific needs... for instance if you install the lighting pack you will get new lighting related buttons

-As far as starting a map from scratch, open the .mis file in notepad and delete the reference to the terrain, though it is probably easier to make a white 256x256 bitmap, and load that as your heightmap. that´s f11 to get to the mission editor, and f7 to get to the terrain terraformer, then as your operation, select "bitmap" and load your file that you´ve hopefully already placed somewhere in your game data path. (though I´m not sure where, I´ve never done this in practice)

-to use your own terrain textures you just make sure they are 256x256 and in your terrain folder (under data by default) then in the f11 editor choose "terrain texture painter" and under the available (default 6) textures click choose and choose your own file (jpg or png).

-As far as I know, there is no easy way to get LW created content into DIF interiors ( I think once upon a time I exported from LW to 3DSMax3 and used the .map exporter from there, but I haven´t been able to replicate this.)

Theoretically you should be able to save your LWO and open it in Milkshape, and from there export a .map file, but I haven´t ever gotten this to work either, so you should definitely learn quark, it is well worth the effort.

As always, everything I have just told you I learned from this site (tutorials and documentation) it´s all there, so don´t give up looking for it.

Bryan Knouse
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 18:32 GMT       

Yeah theres definately material, and I´ve been looking. Quite a bit of threads here, but I´ll find it. also, im getting torque maybe this christmas so then I can read the documentation, also from all the good things I´ve heard I have already picked up a copy of 3d Game Programming All In One. Anyways, thanks for helping me out, I´ll finally be able to start creating some of the games I´ve been planning for years :-)

Jeff Houck
Member
Posted: Dec 14, 2004 20:10 GMT       

Cool! I´m sure the community will look forward to seeing some of your efforts!

Cid Dynam
Member
Posted: Dec 15, 2004 00:16 GMT       

Whew!! Yea thanx guys, I should have looked at this thread earlier, but Knouse didnt tell me ´bout it...lol...I´m sure he did, I just wasn´t paying attention...working on something mindless in LightWave. O yea, I´m the "bud" that Knouse was talking about, if you didn´t notice yet.

David Loomis
Member
Posted: Dec 15, 2004 00:17 GMT       

Gotta love lightwave... so easy to get lost in it.

Jay Barnson
Member
Posted: Dec 15, 2004 02:07 GMT       

Bryan -

The average indie game makes... um... little more than squat. Donīt be average.

The amount of programming needed on the engine varies based on your project. And there are two kinds of programming... the core engine-level programming (the C++ stuff) and the scripting level. You MIGHT be able to get away with very little engine-level programming if you pick your project right. But the scripting defines the game, and there´s no way around that.

GarageGames published several games (including my own Void War) which are not Torque-based. The game has to rock, and in general should be multiplatform. GG gets a LOT of attention from Mac fans. You can get more information here .

My recommendation would be to try and work with some experienced developers to get a more solid feel for what it takes to build and release a game. GID and other projects found here are good places to start.

Otherwise, my most important pieces of advice I like to give out (absolutely free, and worth every penny) are:

#1 - Donīt brag about what you havenīt yet done.

#2 - Start SMALL, especially when you are just starting out, so you can identify what you are capable of, what your weaknesses are, and plan around it so you can push your limits each time rather than smacking hard into them.

#3 - PROTOTYPE PROTOTYPE PROTOTYPE! If you canīt build a prototype on your own, you canīt build a full game with a team.

#4 - Donīt be afraid to ask for help, but only after youīve done your own homework first (seems like you are okay with that)

Seems like you have a good attitude, and you are asking good questions. Good luck!

Edited on Dec 15, 2004 02:08 GMT



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