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Military's Next Maneuver: Going Green (re: alternate ammunition)

Foreign Affairs News
Source: Dallas Morning News
Published: March 27, 2001 Author: Ed Timms
Posted on 03/27/2001 05:44:39 PST by Stand Watch Listen

Picture a modern-day Sgt. Rock – comic book biceps bulging – defending truth, democracy and apple pie with an M-16 in each hand.

"Eat environmentally friendly tungsten-tin," he yells as streams of bullets cut down godless commies or other ideologically challenged adversaries.

It's not quite as rousing and emphatic as "Eat lead," but times change. The Army wants ammunition that is less likely to cause environmental damage, an alternative to lead-core ammunition that can that pollute ground water and cause cleanup headaches.

By 2005, Army officials plan to replace their lead-core 5.56 mm ammunition with tungsten-tin or tungsten-nylon composites. The new rounds are in limited production, and up to 50 million may be produced next year. More than 200 million rounds of 5.56 mm ammunition are typically fired in training every year by Army soldiers using the M-16 rifle and the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon.

"The main hazard with lead is ground contamination, runoff into streams, runoff into the aquifers," said John Middleton, who oversees the "green ammunition" program at the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J.

Lead, if ingested or inhaled, can cause brain damage, especially in children.

Tara Thornton, executive director of the Military Toxics Project, a nonprofit advocacy group based in Maine, said she's encouraged that more environmentally friendly ammunition is being developed.

"At all of these training and firing ranges, there's contamination to the environment," she said. She would also like to see other munitions that pose an environmental threat phased out, she said, including those that contain depleted uranium.

The Army is looking at alternatives for other bullets that contain lead, including 7.62 mm and 9 mm rounds.

Tungsten may be a viable choice for the 7.62 mm round, which is most often fired from machine guns. However, in the case of 9 mm ammunition, fired primarily from pistols, replacing lead with tungsten may not be cost-effective because of the large size of the slug.

A variety of tests were conducted to determine whether tungsten-core bullets were safer than lead. Studies determined that the tungsten did not adversely affect groundwater. Soil containing lead stunted the growth of rye grass, but the plant was unaffected by soil containing tungsten. Scientists also exposed earthworms to soil containing the two metals.

"In the case of tungsten, there was no abnormal growth; the reproductive patterns were the same," Mr. Middleton said. But in the lead-contaminated soil, "they got smaller, they didn't have any offspring and they died out."

The tungsten-core 5.56 mm ammunition is being used primarily at two locations for now: a firing range near Nome, Alaska, and the Massachusetts Military Reservation on Cape Cod.

Bill Vagt, an environmental expert with the Alaska Army National Guard, said nothing but tungsten-core ammunition has been used at the Stewart River training area near Nome.

"It was a clean range," he said. "We didn't want to have any contamination out there, so we requested the tungsten and we were the first in the Army to field and use it."

In 1997, the use of lead-core ammunition at the Massachusetts Military Reservation was stopped after lead and other harmful substances were detected in Cape Cod water supplies. Eight years previously, the Environmental Protection Agency had declared the installation a Superfund site.

To train, soldiers at the Massachusetts installation were left with plastic bullets, which have limited range and other shortcomings. About a year ago, they began firing tungsten-core 5.56 mm ammunition, which is virtually identical in appearance and performance to the lead-core rounds. Tin or nylon is combined with tungsten to give the slug the same ballistics and density at lead-core ammunition; tungsten is a heavier metal than lead. Both the lead and tungsten cores are both covered by a copper jacket.

The new 5.56 rounds can be used for training or combat.

"Plastic bullets don't give the realism that we really want to the soldiers to have," said Michael Dette, a senior official at the Army Environmental Center in Aberdeen, Md.

The environmental benefits of tungsten ammunition have been demonstrated outside the military. Hunters in the United States routinely use shotgun shells containing tungsten shot. The Fish and Wildlife Service banned the use of lead shot for waterfowl hunting in 1991. A study by Illinois researchers made public last year concluded that millions of waterfowl did not die prematurely from lead poisoning because of the ban.

Tungsten bullets are more expensive, but Army officials expect the cost to drop as production increases. And there may be long-term savings as well.

For example, if a base is closed, cleaning up lead-contaminated soil is a costly proposition. Mr. Dette said that removing lead from soil might cost $35 a ton, and there can be "many thousands of tons of dirt in a single firing range."


1 Posted on 03/27/2001 05:44:39 PST by Stand Watch Listen
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To: All

Can anyone here knowledgeably comment on whether lead from bullets leaches substantially into soil and groundwater? I have heard that this is a really a non-issue, as elemental lead in large chunks doesn't tend to decompose into other forms that would tend to be inhaled/ingested. Is this true?

I am really suspicious when I see things like this advocated by "Tara Thornton, executive director of the Military Toxics Project, a nonprofit advocacy group based in Maine"-type people. My experience is that they tend to be high on emoting and feelings and low on technical knowledge on things like soil chemistry, groundwater hydrology, and materials science.

I am also suspicious as I see lead contamination being used as another way to assault 2nd Amendment rights.

2 Posted on 03/27/2001 06:28:42 PST by FreedomPoster
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To: Stand Watch Listen

I want to know whose tungsten mines are going to benefit from this.

3 Posted on 03/27/2001 06:32:41 PST by Lizavetta
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To: Stand Watch Listen

This is all understandable when you learn that tungstun penetrates body armor like butter. It also penetrates a lot of lightly-armored vehicles. Oh, by the way, it SOUNDS environmentally friendly.

It also is a win-win for the gun grabbers. No way can we let civilians have those nasty tungstun cop-killer bullets, and no way can we let civilians have those nasty environment-poisoning leaden ones. Think: Balsa-wood bullets.

4 Posted on 03/27/2001 06:38:24 PST by Lazamataz
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To: FreedomPoster

You may find these FR threads informative:

Green Ammo
Source: Bergen County (NJ) Record; Published: March 14, 2001; Author: John Cichowski

US Military to Introduce ‘Green’ Ammo
Source: 7 AM; Published: 30 October 2000

5 Posted on 03/27/2001 06:51:09 PST by Stand Watch Listen
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To: Lizavetta

China

6 Posted on 03/27/2001 06:51:30 PST by Gunner9mm
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To: Lazamataz, Carry_Okie

"It also is a win-win for the gun grabbers. No way can we let civilians have those nasty tungstun cop-killer bullets, and no way can we let civilians have those nasty environment-poisoning leaden ones. Think: Balsa-wood bullets...."

(1) As far as I can see, lead in not a threat, it is a pretext. Many civilian gun ranges have been closed down or threatened for supposed "lead" pollution, going back perhaps twenty years.

(2) Red China has some of the richest wolfram deposits in the world.

(3) The EPA has been run by programmatic Marxists for the last eight years at least.

There's more here than meets the eye. A very cunning endrun as far as I can tell, endangering not only the armed forces but the II Amendment.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

7 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:08:49 PST by Hopalong
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To: Lazamataz, Carry_Okie, All

"Praise the ChiComs and Pass the Wolframmunition?":

American Metal Market: EU continues with China tungsten duty.

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EU continues with China tungsten duty.

Author/s: Steve Zwick
Issue: April 16, 1998

DUSSELDORF, Germany - The European Union announced Tuesday it will not allow a 1995 anti-dumping duty of 33 percent on imports of tungsten carbide and fused tungsten carbide from China to expire.

The April 7 Official Journal of the European Communities shrugged off claims by consumers within the EU-specifically AB Sandvik Hand Materials and Seco Tools AB, both of Sweden-that the duty created an oligopoly.

Instead, the report used the lack of import duties from other countries as an example of the EU's fairness and said there was no reason to expect things had changed in the Chinese market.

The duty was initially imposed after an inquiry requested by three companies that produced 60 percent of Europe's tungsten carbide and fused tungsten carbide concluded that Chinese companies were dumping their tungsten carbide products at a price 30.6 percent below what the commission determined to be a fair market price based on studies with an analogous company in the United States, Teledyne Advanced Minerals.

The EU chose to treat both chemicals as one because they perform the same manufacturing purposes and come from the same stage in the tungsten production chain, which means their availability and price influence the desirability of upstream and downstream products.

The three companies who lodged the complaint were Wolfram Bergbau and Huettengesellschaft GmbH, St Peter, Austria; H. C. Starck GmbH & Co. KG, Glosar, Germany; and Eurotungstene Poudres, Grenoble, France.

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Regards to all. S&W; R.I.P.

8 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:21:20 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

My recollection is that there have been studies of contamination from Civil War battlefields that found no problem with resudual lead. That the gun grabbers continue with the pretext, shutting down ranges all over the country to "perform a study" and providing an unsustainable source of substitute raw material is the most telling aspect of how this is being handled. It is very dangerous. We need to be ready to replicate the truth in each case where this is happening and I am not the guy to dig it up and compile it to set it up for exportable citation (WAY too busy right now).

My opinion is that this is important enough to put up a hard link on the top of the FR page as a downloadable reference package for all patriots who come to the site in need of legal source references.

Can you handle this one?

9 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:31:29 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: FreedomPoster

It's stealth gun-grabbing, pure and simple.

10 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:32:43 PST by ak47fred
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To: Lizavetta


"I want to know whose tungsten mines are going to benefit from this. "

Yep! Now, along with most everything else, we'll have to depend on our two closest enemies for ammo materials when the shooting starts.

11 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:41:05 PST by SuperLuminal
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To: Hopalong

When the EPA goes after fishing weights we'll know that the end game is on. Would I ever like to have the rights to what is lying on the bottom of Drake's Bay!

12 Posted on 03/27/2001 08:43:39 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie, Stand Watch Listen, Askel5, tallhappy, Ironword, all

They will go after fishing weights and sinkers eventually, if they are allowed to get away with it, as I have long ago warned the fishermen I know—often to uncomprehending glances.

But there is also the connection to tungsten, ammunition, the harassment of civilian gun ranges, and so forth.

Some pro-II Amendment organizations—including the GOA recently—are, finally, beginning to appreciate the transparency of the anti-lead environmental fraud, especially when used against gun ranges and shooters. But they don't have much expertise in the deeper "environmental" goals behind it.

Then there's the tungsten ammo and the military connection.

Got any short lists to flag, with various lines of expertise and interest, from military small arms ballistics to environmental research to law and regulation to metals-trading to corportate judicial defenses to Red-Chinese wolframite mining and export to anti-gun ecology to congressional and executive liaison to NRA lead experts, etc. etc. etc.?

In the old days, there were plenty of authorities, military and civilian , on strategic metals.

In this case, it might well be, the Reds are trying artificially to invent a new "stategic" commodity, which they just happen to have and might be able to control, in price for example.

No doubt there may well be uses for some tungsten in military ammunition of various calibers, though I know next to nothing on that subject. But changing over across the board strikes for "environmental reasons" strikes me as ill-advised and potentially disastrous.

Even on the most pedestrian level, it will be more expensive for the military to practice, no? Then there's the wear and tear on barrels, or so I have heard.

In regard to who will be making money off this, if it goes through, there are some names of well-known individuals and firms that would not surprise me if they turned up on such a list.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

13 Posted on 03/27/2001 15:21:40 PST by Hopalong
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To: Stand Watch Listen

The Army wants ammunition that is less likely to cause environmental damage, an alternative to lead-core ammunition that can that pollute ground water and cause cleanup headaches.

If lead shot pollutes the environment, then why aren't civil war battelfields like Gettysburg, Manassas, etc. all superfund sites? Why are we allowed to walk around on them with our children?

I'll bet they are buying their tungsten-tin from China.

14 Posted on 03/27/2001 15:27:18 PST by George_Bailey
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To: Hopalong

Thanks for the heads up ... I've a friend who'll be particularly interested and may have some comments I can pass along.

15 Posted on 03/27/2001 15:49:59 PST by Askel5
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To: Lematha, Askel5, Carry_Okie

Mining Journal 30 July, 1999

"Ten years ago, China's annual production of tungsten concentrates was running at about 18,000 t and it was contributing around 50% of world supply. It is now contributing nearer 80% and oversupply is depressing prices...."

Glnecore was big in copper at one time, Lematha. How about wolfram/tungsten and Red China, eh?

Regards to all. S&W; R.I.P.

16 Posted on 03/27/2001 16:04:03 PST by Hopalong
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To: Lematha, Askel5, Ironword, OKCSubmariner, Carry_Okie

Bingo—Glencore Tungsten:

"Glencore, a Swiss-based non-ferrous metals company.7 Problems have often related to exports by Chinese suppliers. Metals and ferro-alloys involved included tungsten, antimony, cobalt, ferro-chromium and ferro-molybdenum. Conflicts have been a symptom of the boom in the Chinese economy, with domestic producers changing their mind when they realise domestic prices are preferable to those achievable under the existing export contract. As a Metal Bulletin editorial quipped: "Confucius may have said a lot of sensible things, but `you may renege on your contracts in a rising market' was certainly not one of them" ( MB, 3 Apr 1995: 9). The journal also noted that international traders were "incensed over the level of reneged contracts" ( MB, 21 Apr 1994: 3)."

Regards to all. S&W; R.I.P.

17 Posted on 03/27/2001 16:34:57 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

ARMY DEVELOPS NEW BULLET

The Army has developed a new M16 round that has replaced the lead core with a tungsten and tin core. The new 5.56-millimeter bullets are ballistically and visually identical to the old ones, require no special handling, and have proven to be slightly more accurate than the lead rounds during testing.

The bullet was developed in an effort to reduce lead in the environment. With the new rounds, bullets fired on ranges will not contain lead that could leach into the soil. According to Jim Arnold, Chief of the Pollution Prevention and Environmental Technology Division at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland, lead contamination is not currently a problem at outdoor military ranges. The Army is addressing the situation before it becomes a problem.

Army Looks to Cleanup Firing Ranges, Bullets"

FORT DIX, NJ, November 4, 1999 - Until recently, the US Army was mainly concerned with whether the bullets being fired at any of its 3,000 firing ranges across the US hit the target or not. But now, in the days of the greener Army, the amount of lead deposited into those ranges has become a concern. To combat this problem, the Army is developing the first environmentally friendly firing range in the US.

Everyone agrees that lead makes for great bullets, but that same lead is a poisonous contaminant, impacting the land and groundwater when it corrodes.

"Lead works great and it's cheap, but it's toxic," says John Cefaloni, who works at the Army's environmental research headquarters at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey.

Cefaloni and others from the Arsenal were in Fort Dix recently talking about the RangeSafe program that has been established there. RangeSafe is a new remediation technique that the Army hopes will clean up the firing ranges and is part of its two-pronged attack at making the ranges greener.

In order to get the lead out of the ranges due to the 700 million or so bullets fired each year, the Army developed an experimental process that uses water and a modification of the panning techniques used during the days of the gold rush. The technique floats the soil in a column of water allowing the lead to settle at the bottom where it is captured. When all the lead that can be removed by this technique is removed, lead-loving plants are brought in to pull out the remaining contamination. Then, when the plants are done absorbing the lead, they are sent to a company that will reclaim the lead to make batteries.

But what good is a clean range if you're just going to be shooting more "dirty" bullets? Well, the Army thought of that also and earlier this year rolled out the new "green bullet," made of inert tungsten. That way, once a range is clean, it stays clean.

"We've been working on this for about two years," said Jim Arnold, chief of the pollution prevention and environmental technology division at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md.

(the following emphasis is mine, C_O)

"The concept is part of an Army initiative called Range 21. It is about the Army being good stewards of training and testing lands."

Lessee, Agenda 21, Range 21...

A complete list of the ignorant sheep at the NRCS foisting this little heist of our freedom. Names, phone numbers, the works.

18 Posted on 03/27/2001 16:37:30 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Thanks, Carry_Okie.

Found another here: Picattinny a la Cefaloni

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

19 Posted on 03/27/2001 16:48:13 PST by Hopalong
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To: Askel5, Carry_Okie

cefalo = "mullet", so the "Cefaloni" should be something along the lines of "Major Mullets". In the Sicilian dialect especially, however, where there is a lot of Greek surviving from ancient times, it may mean "head", in which case—well, everyone knows, Malatesta, for example.

Didn't Mastrioanni play a certain Baron 'Cefalu' in Divorce Italian Style?

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

20 Posted on 03/27/2001 16:56:58 PST by Hopalong
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To: Superluminal, Lizavetta, George _Bailey

FYI.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

21 Posted on 03/27/2001 17:11:05 PST by Hopalong
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To: Sawdring

FYI.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

22 Posted on 03/27/2001 17:13:49 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

Man, all that nice pretty GREEN equipment. Wad due you bet, $4K per day per? Bet daze gots a cappin, gots hissef a privates wits a buck-it uh GREEN paint. You kin jest seize the ol Gaia dancin on a conveyor belt wit der GREEN paint brush! Dare awl so prowed off fit, werkin sew hawrd too save de environmint, and sign the death warrant of good patriots by digging their graves in advance: "We know there isn't really a problem, but we'll just keep our mouths shut and go along with Green Bullets because the commander says there might be a problem someday."

Sure as hell will be. I'd like to phytoremediate the spdfbngaerg arva[pe8g9h who dreamed this one up, but I don't know if the roots go that deep.

23 Posted on 03/27/2001 17:19:14 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

"if the roots go that deep"

Found this one from FR on Tungsten ammnunition:Where Gun Battle Is Leading

Best Regards. S&W; R.I.P.

24 Posted on 03/27/2001 17:36:06 PST by Hopalong
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To: Lizavetta

Most tungsten (W) is produced by the Chinese. Don't worry they will sell us the tungsten as long as we don't mess with their U.S. sanctioned Panama trade route. I hope no one believed that the U.S. took out Noreiga and his Israeli backed security forces over a little drug trading.

25 Posted on 03/27/2001 17:39:08 PST by robbinsj
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To: Carry_Okie,

Great little piece on Cefalu

Merely by the way, the decumate mentioned in the article is a reference to the Roman decuma, the tax Rome levied on a conquered Sicily—er, would you believe, ten percent—of the grain harvest at least.

Ten percent? A measly ten percent?

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

26 Posted on 03/27/2001 18:32:25 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

As far as root depth is concerned, I was talking six feet.

27 Posted on 03/27/2001 19:08:30 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Travis McGee SierraWasp dirtboy sauropod seattlesue

Grump.

28 Posted on 03/27/2001 19:45:09 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

DEEP, BWANA EM, DEEP.

Best regards. S&W.; R.I.P.

29 Posted on 03/27/2001 19:47:00 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

Thanks for the flag. I hear .223 ammo is pretty cheap still.

30 Posted on 03/27/2001 19:50:38 PST by Sawdring
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To: Carry_Okie,Squantos,Matthew James

We used to have one of the world's largest and most productive tungsten mines, up in the mountains on the Cali-Nevada border. It was considered a "national strategic asset" from before WW2 until the 90s, when the Krintong administration closed it down.

Not only did they close it, they had the mines plugged, and the miles of trams and rails destroyed and dismantled to bring the mountain back to EPA "scenic beauty" type standards.

Not content, Algore had our national strategic stockpile of stored tungsten declared excess, and it was all sold on the world market at a huge loss in competition with cheaper Chinese tungsten. Part of "reinventing government".

BTW, tungsten is not only used in bullets, but in tank shells, jet turbines, and many industrial applications for which there is no substitute.

31 Posted on 03/27/2001 19:57:18 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Carry_Okie

After rereading and catching some of my typos and other errors in earlier posts on this thread, Bwana Em, I now see why I was so comfortable with the English of the Cefalu link. Ah, probably not worth modificating them at this point, eh?

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

32 Posted on 03/27/2001 20:00:23 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

But did you FEEL good when you spelled it that way? Heck, Jop; doncha no schpeiling is all subjective? Watts wit all the Greek year techin yore kidd id's recusable. Next time you have a confronsation wit a RICOnut, an they till you id's all subjective, ask 'em, "Like when you're talking to yourself? Tell me, how do you know what you wanted to hear?" Then, when they look at the ground with that strange exasperation of the unremittingly ignorant, rub it in thusly, "Were you convincing? How did you FEEL about id?"

That'll get em going. Hopefully at a high rate of schleppin.

33 Posted on 03/27/2001 21:29:06 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

LOL!

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

34 Posted on 03/27/2001 21:32:53 PST by Hopalong (And to all a good night....)
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To: Travis McGee

All of which fits the pattern of treason by the Clinton/Gore Crime Family.

35 Posted on 03/27/2001 21:38:35 PST by Matthew James
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To: All Freeper

"Tungsten may be a viable choice for the 7.62 mm round, which is most often fired from machine guns. However, in the case of 9 mm ammunition, fired primarily from pistols, replacing lead with tungsten may not be cost-effective because of the large size of the slug."

This guy sure doesn't know much about small arms. A 7.62 round is usually about 160 to 180 grains in weight, whereas a 9mm pistol round is smaller at about 110 grains. Doesn't matter whether it's lead or tungston a 7.62 uses more than a 9mm. tungson is primarily being adopted because it pierces body armor easily (tungton is the primary component in "armor piercing" ammunition).

36 Posted on 03/27/2001 21:41:37 PST by surferUSA
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To: Travis McGee SierraWasp Boot Hill

Wow. Another RICOnut minerals scam. When will I ever learn not to have looked first.

37 Posted on 03/27/2001 22:03:52 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: surferUSA

You're right, the remark doesn't make much sense, especially since the switch isn't based on cost anyway, but rather water pollution. The consideration wouldn't be bullet weight, but rather the amount of ammo that's used. The quantity of 9mm that's fired is small in comparison with the quantity of rifle ammo, so the "pollution contribution" of 9mm is minor.

Lead, ingested either orally or ballistically, is not good for health.

38 Posted on 03/27/2001 22:18:30 PST by Red Redwine (theBin@theAlley)
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To: Travis McGee

We used to have one of the world's largest and most productive tungsten mines, up in the mountains on the Cali-Nevada border. It was considered a "national strategic asset" from before WW2 until the 90s, when the Krintong administration closed it down.

I would really like a reference to this. Do you have one?

39 Posted on 03/28/2001 13:24:22 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: sasquatch

I wouldn't want to lead you ashtray, cause it would give you a bump.

40 Posted on 03/28/2001 13:26:35 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Glad you asked.

It was reported in a feature article in USA TODAY, Oct 4th 2000, pages A-17,18. It included three photos and a map, about 30 column inches of text.

The mine was called "Pine Creek Mine", aka "The Mine in the Sky", near Bishop CA east of San Francisco on the Nevada border. It was the USA's largest producer of tungsten until it was closed down, due to the low price of Chinese tungsten.

41 Posted on 03/28/2001 14:19:20 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee Uncle Bill

I have no intrinsic problem with using up a cheaper Chinese resource and mothballing a US mine for later. My objection is to gratuitiosly using public money to DESTROY a domestic mine while placing ourselves at the strategic mercy of the ChiComs.

The idea of making us tungsten dependent is not a filament of Gore's imagination (sorry, bad joke). Whoever is laying out scenic byways, selecting which mines to destroy, planning control mechanics for public water systems, and making fossil fuels the only available option is a military monster.

This is why I shudder when Schwartzkopf is put in charge of The Nature Conservancy. Isn't anyone else bothered by that?

42 Posted on 03/28/2001 15:10:05 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Travis McGee

Pine Creek Mine Shutdown

43 Posted on 03/28/2001 15:13:01 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Not only was the mine not mothballed, it was wrecked, and our strategic national tungsten stockpiles sold dirt cheap on the world market instead of held in reserve as was intended.

Now we have no mine, and no tungsten reserves to hold us over until the mine could be reopened, and we must rely on Chinese goodwill for our weapons and jet engines.

44 Posted on 03/28/2001 15:40:09 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee Hopalong

From: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/tungsten/680495.pdf.

National Defense

The Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) proposed to sell its entire inventory of tungsten through the year 2005. This U.S. Defense Department Agency sent the proposed legislation that calls for new proposals to Congress on April 16, 1996. DLA would conduct sales on a specified amount per year which would be subject to a Congressional mandate not to disrupt Stockpile Center included: tungsten ore and concentrates, metal, carbides, and ferrotungsten.

45 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:03:09 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Travis McGee

BTW Avocet Ventures Inc., British Columbia, Canada, parent company of Waller Metals Ltd., London, United Kingdom, bought inventories and fixed assets of Stratcor's tungsten operations at Bishop, CA.

46 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:05:37 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

I wonder where the stockpiles are, physically?

47 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:17:19 PST by Travis McGee
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To: FreedomPoster

Can anyone here knowledgeably comment on whether lead from bullets leaches substantially into soil and groundwater? I have heard that this is a really a non-issue, as elemental lead in large chunks doesn't tend to decompose into other forms that would tend to be inhaled/ingested. Is this true?

Well, we've got some of the biggest lead mines in the world here in MO, and the lead comes out of the ground as just that - elemental lead. You just have to melt it down and separate out the "not lead" chunks. I haven't noticed any great swaths of barren landscape around the lead mines.

48 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:22:07 PST by tacticalogic
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To: FreedomPoster

Lead oxide stabilizes the surface of elemental lead. It is not a strong material. It can slowly dissolve in strong acids. If there is a disturbance of the surface, such as fluid shear in a creek, it might sluff VEWY SWOWY. Otherwise, fuggeddaboudit. The military has already admitted it and went along per orders and for budget money. IMHO it constitutes dereliction of duty.

49 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:31:09 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

This is why I shudder when Schwartzkopf is put in charge of The Nature Conservancy.

Do you have any reason to think that Schwartzkopf is an NWO afficianado?

50 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:36:15 PST by independentmind
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To: Travis McGee

God bless Googlesearch...

Government Stockpile: In July, the U.S. Government began sales of tungsten ores and concentrates from the National Defense Stockpile for the first time since 1989. In September, sales of ferrotungsten, tungsten carbide powder, and tungsten metal powder were initiated. In addition to the data shown below, as of September 30, 1999, the stockpile contained 95 tons (tungsten content) of committed nonstockpile-grade ferrotungsten and the following quantities of uncommitted nonstockpile-grade tungsten materials (tons of tungsten content): ores and concentrates, 7,010; ferrotungsten, 437; metal powder, 151; and carbide powder, 51. During fiscal year 1999, 91 tons (tungsten content) of nonstockpile-grade ferrotungsten were disposed.

Prepared by Kim B. Shedd [(703) 648-4974, kshedd@usgs.gov, fax: (703) 648-7757]

Events, Trends, and Issues: World tungsten supply continued to be dominated by Chinese production and exports.

In an effort to control its output, the Chinese Government stopped issuing new permits for tungsten mines and reduced the number of export licenses for tungsten materials. To bring the prices of tungsten materials closer to the costs of production, the China Tungsten Industry Association established minimum prices for ammonium paratungstate, tungsten concentrates, and tungsten oxide. Following these actions, Metal Bulletin prices for ammonium paratungstate and tungsten concentrates steadily increased during the second half of 1999.

In July, the U.S. Government began selling tungsten materials from the National Defense Stockpile. In August, the U.S. Department of Commerce and U.S. International Trade Commission reviewed the antidumping duty order on tungsten ore concentrates from China, which had been in effect since 1991. As a result of the review, the order was revoked effective January 1, 2000.

51 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:38:16 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: independentmind

His affiliation with TNC is certainly cause for suspicion in that regard.

52 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:39:26 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Stray tidbits on Alcoa(O'Neill), Glencore, and Avocet

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

53 Posted on 03/28/2001 16:56:07 PST by Hopalong
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To: Travis McGee, Carry_Okie

"Not only was the mine not mothballed, it was wrecked..."

Important fact, Travis McGee.

Was there a stated pretext (Liability? Obsolescence? Environmental clean-up? Some sort of write-off?) for the wrecking? Didn't catch one in the linked article.

Great links, Carry_Okie.

Riady and Utah come to mind too, no?

Federal and Kent make tungsten duckshot, which is less important perhaps—in the gun-control context at least—than some of the "environmental bandwagon articles" pushing tungsten-polymer in preference to lead, that have appeared here and there in the press.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

54 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:13:32 PST by Hopalong
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To: FreedomPoster

To my knowledge, this is a "non-problem." Consider the provinences eastern, location of the "Western Front" during World War I. By any standard, four years of trench warfare resulted in the highest concentration of led ammo in the ground of any location on the planet; literally millions (if not billons) of rounds buried in the soil. Yet, I have never heard any claims of lead poisoing in the soil and water of that region, despite the fact that visitors to the battlefields still find lead rounds buried beneath the soil. Someone else said it best: which Tungsten mining companies are going to benefit from this decision?

55 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:22:04 PST by Spook86
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To: Carry_Okie, Travis McGee, Askel5, LeMatha

Avocet:

"Avocet Mining Plc (Avocet) is involved in exploration, extraction and production of gold and tungsten. In fiscal 1997 Avocet started to extract gold from its mine in Malaysia. The company's tungsten mines are situated in Portugal, Peru and the USA, and it has also an interest in a mine in Russia. Avocet is the leading tungsten supplier outside China and the CIS. During fiscal 2000 the group closed its US tungsten operations. Gold accounted for 74% of fiscal 2000 revenues and tungsten, 26%. "

Don't want to make a guess, but that tungsten mine in Russia rings a bell—ding ding, ding....

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

56 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:26:41 PST by Hopalong
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To: Carry_Okie

Don't worry, they are already after lead fishing weights, and yes, the end game is on right now.

57 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:30:25 PST by FSPress
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To: FSPress

Not yet it ain't.

58 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:33:28 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Hopalong

Environmental cleanup. Avocet fronted much of the money.

59 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:45:22 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Thanks.

Only been in one or two silver mines, but , do I recall correctly that lead is usually present there and in the tailings? No problem there either?

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

60 Posted on 03/28/2001 17:50:26 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

As I suggested above, leach rate would be a function of surface area, soil chemistry, substrate porosity, and water flow. Powders would therefore go faster, so I would assume that eroding piles of tailings might be more of a problem. How much is hard to say.

61 Posted on 03/28/2001 18:02:30 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Thanks.

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

62 Posted on 03/28/2001 18:05:15 PST by Hopalong
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To: Hopalong

Flag bump.

63 Posted on 03/28/2001 18:19:46 PST by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Carry_Okie

Avocet's Comeback

Excellent article on tungsten, including references to Avocet and Red China

Best regards. S&W; R.I.P.

64 Posted on 03/28/2001 18:21:17 PST by Hopalong
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To: Stand Watch Listen

By declaring non-lead bullets an enviromental mandate, casting will become impossible.

Melting points:

Lead 621.5 F,

Tungsten 6,710 F

Iron 2,795 F.

Casting moulds and pots melt long before tungsten, and your torches will not burn that hot anyway.

Data taken from CRC Press' Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. China has 75% of the world's tungsten, Russia, South Korea, Portugal, and Boliva have what we do not.

BLOAT

65 Posted on 03/28/2001 18:36:04 PST by SevenDaysInMay
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To: Hopalong,Carry_Okie

This was in the full USA TODAY article:

"A plan to restart the digging was scuttled last year, company officials say, after the U.S. govt further depressed prices by dumping its tungsten reserves onto the market. Avocet decided to pull up stakes and shut the operation.

"Now Pine Creek is being dismantled in accordance with state and federal enviromental laws. Vern Mclean of the US Forest Service says the laws were enacted because many old mines are eyesores and and enviromental threats. He says Pine Creek was never considered a serious environmental threat."

(Me: the buildings and plants are being demolished, the tunnels sealed, and miles of incredibly engneered trams and elevated roads which make the "Mine in the Sky" accessible are being dismantled and taken away. It's not enough that the mine is closed and the reserves sold, it seems that it is desired that the mine never reopen.

Remember, tungsten is required to build modern armor, projectiles, and jet engines among other uses.)

66 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:15:10 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee

after the U.S. govt further depressed prices by dumping its tungsten reserves onto the market

I haven't read all of the links on this thread, but do you know which department actually handles the sale of the reserves?

67 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:30:00 PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind

It's in this one.

68 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:35:21 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Just for the record:

The Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) proposed to sell its entire inventory of tungsten through the year 2005. This U.S. Defense Department Agency sent the proposed legislation that calls for new proposals to Congress on April 16, 1996. DLA would conduct sales on a specified amount per year which would be subject to a Congressional mandate not to markets. No timetable was set for Congress to act on this proposal. Forms of tungsten in the U.S. National Defense Stockpile Center included: tungsten ore and concentrates, metal, carbides, and ferrotungsten.

It might be interesting to see who was in charge of the DLA and what his career path looks like. Am I correct in thinking that this person would be a civilian?

69 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:48:41 PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind

I am guessing Commerce. ("Cash and Carry" under Clinton.)

70 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:49:18 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee

See #69. Do you know if the person who runs the DLA is a civilian?

71 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:51:26 PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind

Yes, the boss of DLA is a senior federal bureaucrat.

It would be nice to examine his personal cash flow during those years, particularly from China.

72 Posted on 03/28/2001 22:55:14 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Lizavetta

According to the USGS, the US relies on imports for 68% of its tungsten. The rest is reclaimed (recycled); none is currently being mined domestically.

The import suppliers are listed as:

China: 39%

Russia: 21%

Portugal: 5%

Bolivia: 5%

"Other": 30%

Smells like another Clinton era weakening of our strategic position. Tungten Carbide is essential to machining and milling, as well as a critical portion of oilwell drilling bits. Recuce the supply to less than 1/3 of current supplies, fire most of what you have at the enemy so it cannot be reclaimed, and then where are you.

No one said that war is healthy, nor that its residues were environmentally friendly.

Go here for the data: http://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/tungsten/680301.pdf

73 Posted on 03/28/2001 23:06:36 PST by Smokin' Joe
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To: tacticalogic

Not quite elemental, rather as Galena, PbS, lead sulphide. Looks much the same, but cleaves in cubes instead of just deforming as elemental lead would.

74 Posted on 03/28/2001 23:12:19 PST by Smokin' Joe
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To: Carry_Okie

Here's more than you ever wanted to know about tungsten.

A snip:

The 'Green Ammo' Program, directed by U.S. Army ARDEC at Picatinny Arsenal, has identified 3 primary areas for development of nontoxic ammunition alternatives. These areas include: * The projectile core (lead), * The primer (lead and other heavy metals), and * The casemouth sealant (VOCs). The lead projectile core, itself, presents the greatest hazard to the environment and has been successfully replaced with a line of patented nontoxic tungsten/nylon composite materials developed by Ideas to Market, L.P. and trademarked as Ecomass(r) Compounds.

I wonder who the investors are in Ideas to Market, L.P.

75 Posted on 03/28/2001 23:36:02 PST by independentmind
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To: Carry_Okie

Last post before I call it a night.:0)

Defense National Stockpile Center

The Defense National Stockpile Center, under the direction of Administrator Richard J. Connelly, buys, sells and maintains strategic and critical materials to reduce the nation’s dependence on foreign sources of supply during national emergencies. DNSC has the experience of over half a century in buying, selling and warehousing materials.

The center initially was designed to prevent costly dependence on foreign sources for strategic and critical materials under conventional war conditions. With the changed international political environment since the 1980s, and revised policy guidance, the multibillion dollar inventory controlled by DNSC has been recognized as a valuable government asset.

I wonder exactly what the nature of that revised policy guidance was and who made the revisions.

76 Posted on 03/28/2001 23:45:05 PST by independentmind
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To: independentmind Hopalong Travis McGee SierraWasp

You seem to be interested in sacking the bagman! Great job. Now, for you next assignment, find the appropriate Bush appointee who might be interested in collecting a little background justification for some not-so-mild disciplinary action. (I'm a thinkin about 30 years in Rahway.)

Seems to me that we have some action items:

1. We might do a little chit-chat here cooking up legal grounds for prosecution. Could be fertile ground for the numerous other malfeasants Mr. Ashcroft's office might be seeking to correct.

2. Find the people who can cancel this entire tungsten bull**it program as wasteful, fraudulent, and dangerous while cleaning up those few locations that do impact drinking water. That link to the USGS I posted above might be a good place to start on items 1 & 2.

3. We need to see that those those tungsten sales stop NOW.

4. Dig up a list of similar projects where whatshisname put politico moles in place to hog out the military infrastructure.

5. Find those military brass who went along with this crap. (See item 1.)

6. Because it is already a long list, seek the means to hand this off to the right people and keep tabs on the progress.

77 Posted on 03/29/2001 07:09:29 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie, Travis Mc Gee

I'm not so hot on the idea of treason, but generally I'm interested in government corruption.

Travis was on to something in #70. Technically, the Defense National Stockpile Center (DNSC) is part of the DLA which is part of the the Dept. of Defense. But in 1993, the purpose of the the DNSC was modified by Congress, which created the interagency National Defense Stockpile Market Impact Committee (MIC). The MIC provides "expert advice" to DNSC on the projected domestic and foreign economic effects of all acquisitions and disposals of materials from the stockpile. The MIC is co-chaired by the Departments of Commerce and State.

National Defense Stockpile Market Impact Committee

78 Posted on 03/29/2001 08:10:50 PST by independentmind
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To: Stand Watch Listen

Awww, ain't that sweet.

Our military wants to kill, but in an enviromentaly safe way.

79 Posted on 03/29/2001 08:14:00 PST by ashrad
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To: Stand Watch Listen

Lead, if ingested or inhaled, can cause brain damage, especially in children.

I'm glad to see the miltary is going to shot the children with less harmful ammunition.

80 Posted on 03/29/2001 08:18:55 PST by bmwcyle
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To: independentmind,Carry_Okie

We need to alert Bill Gertz and Frank Gaffney of the W. Times to this thread, we have already dug up a lot of leads, (no puns intended), I am sure that Gertz and Gaffney know a few eager grad students or young reporters who would like to grab this rat like a terrier and shake it until the entire sordid story comes out. If the decision makers profited personally, that can mean prison.

File it under "Clinton's Chinese Sellouts", there must be several rooms full of files.

81 Posted on 03/29/2001 08:44:08 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee

Indeed!

82 Posted on 03/29/2001 09:17:11 PST by ashrad
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To: independentmind

Sell the entire supply of tungsten? As I recall you can only get it from South Africa. weird world we live in . The military kept the hair (from some famous actress) that was used as the crosshairs in Norden bomb sights, in WW2, for 40 years in a warehouse. Now we dump one of hardest metals to come by. Stupid.

83 Posted on 03/29/2001 09:25:06 PST by mad_as_he$$
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To: Travis McGee

Great idea. How?

84 Posted on 03/29/2001 10:58:56 PST by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

Some freepers have contacts, I need to think of who.

Also, they must have email in their names at www.washingtontimes.com.

85 Posted on 03/29/2001 11:07:36 PST by Travis McGee
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To: Travis McGee

I think it's time to revive this thread. BTW, I have since found out about another deposit of high grade tungsten ore (about $2 billion worth) in California, within about 30 miles of LA. I wonder what is the current status of that stockpile.

86 Posted on 10/11/2001 14:21:25 PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: CommiesOUT

Some of the doings of our criminals and why environmentalism has been one of the prime vehicles of Marxist takeover.

87 Posted on 10/11/2001 14:32:10 PDT by Carry_Okie
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To: Carry_Okie

This looks worse than marxists, my friend. I think John Paul II was right.

88 Posted on 10/11/2001 15:38:59 PDT by CommiesOut
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To: Carry_Okie

Are there new developments?

89 Posted on 10/11/2001 23:23:23 PDT by Travis McGee
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