Note: Without the package deal, Stetson is exorbandently powerful.

Name: Mike Stetson - Headhunter

Val Char Cost
18 STR 8
18 DEX 24
18 CON 16
12 BODY 4
13 INT 3
11 EGO 2
15/25 PRE 5
10 COM 0
6 PD 2
6 ED 2
4 SPD 12
8 REC 0
36 END 0
30 STUN 0

Characteristic Rolls:
STR: 13-, DEX: 13-, CON: 13-, INT: 12-, EGO: 11-, PER: 14-
Run: 6", Swim: 2", Jump: 4" long/2" high, Lift: 300kg/660 lbs.

Cost Powers END/Roll
3 Deadboy Armor Elemental Control 5 pt. Reserve, OIF Armor -1/2
13 a) Armor: +8rPD/+8rED, OIF Armor
3 b) Damage Resistance: 10 PD/10ED Resistant, Only up to PD/ED of user -1/2, OIF
Armor
5 c) Life Support: Need Not Breathe (1 Charge lasting 1 Hour - 7pts), Safe in Radiation,
Safe in Extreme Temperatures
2 d) +10 Presence, Offensive Only -1, OIF Armor

3 Radio Communication: Radio Listen and Transmit: OIF Armor
3 IR Vision: OIF Armor

40 Firebreather A-14 Assault Multipower (100 Point Reserve), OAF Laser Rifle, Two-Handed
Weapon -1/2
4u Assault Laser: 4d6 RKA, 4 Clips of 30 Charges (+1/2), Beam Attack -1/4, No
Knockback -1/4
2u Grenade Launcher: 3d6 RKA Explosion, 4 Clips of 4 Charges (-3/4)
1u Targeting Optics: +2 OCV

23 Vibro Knife: 3d6 HKA vs. ED (4d6 w/STR) OAF -1

17 Combat Motorcycle

6 Alert and Perceptive: +2 w/All Perception

18 Headhunter Combat (Dirty Infighting)
Maneuver OCV DCV Effect
(4) Block 8 8 Block, Abort
(4) Disarm 5 7 Disarm, 28 STR/35 STR w/Bionic Arm
(4) Elbow Smash/
Punch 6 8 5 1/2d6/7d6 w/Bionic Arm
(5) Roundhouse/
Low Kick 4 7 7 1/2d6/9d6 w/Bionic Arm
(1) Use Art with Bionic Arm

Cost Skills, Talents, Perks Roll
9 + 3 Levels w/Dirty Infighting
6 +3 Levels w/Forearm Blaster
10 +2 Levels w/Small Arms
6 Headhunter Package
(5) Headhunter Cybernetics and Bionics Elemental Control (5 Pt. Reserve)
(2) a) Bionic Arm: + 7 Strength, 0 END +1/2, Doesn't Affect Characteristics -1/2,
Right Arm Only -1/4, OIF Bionic Arm -1/2
(3) b) Retractable Finger Blades: 1/2d6 HKA (1d6 w/STR), Right Arm Only -1/4,
OIF Bionic Arm -1/2
(26) c) Forearm Ion Blaster: 10d6 EB, Beam Attack -1/4, OIF Bionic Arm -1/2, Feeds off
END Reserve
(2) d) Headjack: Mind Link, Any One Mind, Only With Computerized Items -1, Cybernetic -1/4
(4) Ion Blaster Power Battery, END Reserve: 30 END, 3 REC, OIF Bionic Arm
(3) Criminology: 12-
(3) Streetwise: 12-
(3) Survival: 12-
(3) Tracking: 12-
3 Well Travelled
6 AK's @ 11-: Coalition Northern Gun Territory 11-, Coalition: Chi-Town Territory 11-, Lazlo
11-, Ishpimeg 11-, Free Quebec 11-, Tolkeen 11-
3 Scholar
5 KS's @ 11-: Coalition Military Forces 11-, Common DeeBees 11-, Common Monsters 11-,
Wanted Fugitives 11-, Rifts North America Hotspots 11-
3 Combat Driving: Motorcycle 13-
3 Navigation: 11-
3 Demolitions: 11-
3 Gambling: 11-
3 Trading: 12-
5 Wealth: Well Off
1 Literacy

150+ Disadvantages
3 Headhunter Package Bonus
5 Package: Distinctive Features: Headhunter (Easily Concealed, Noticed and Recognized)
15 Package: Distinctive Features: Bionic Limb(s) (Not Concealable, Noticed and
Recognized)
15 Package: Psych Lim: Headhunter's Code of Honor, Common, Strong
10 Package: Reputation: Headhunter (Gun for hire) 11-
15 Psych. Lim: Hates Bigotry of Any Kind, Common, Strong
10 Psych. Lim: Vengeful, Uncommon, Strong
25 Hunted: The Coalition, More Powerful, NCI, 11-, Harsh
10 Enraged: Innocents are Harmed, Common, 11-, 11-
15 DNPC: Geeluk (DeeBee Child), Incompetant, Useful Skills, 14-
10 Reputation: Outlaw Headhunter Fighting the Coalition, 11-
5 Rivalry: Other Headhunters (Professional)
10 Phys Lim: Cannot Heal Damage to Bionics, Needs Specialized Technical Assistance,
Infrequently, Greatly.
15 Hunted: Renegade Magician Whose Plot Was Foiled, As Pow, 11-, Harsh
31 Experience

Equipment: 119 points.

OCV: 6; DCV: 6; ECV: 4; Mental Def.: 0; Phases: 3, 6, 8, 12
PD/rPD: 14/14; ED/rED: 14/14

COSTS: Char.: 78 Disad.: 184
Powers: + 87/206 w/Equipment Base: + 100
Total: = 165/284 w/Equipment Total: = 284

Stetson is a throwback to the old Wild West, pre-Rifts, except, that instead of a Winchester Lever Action and a trusty six-gun, he has a six-shot ion blaster in one forearm and an assault laser rifle and a grenade launcher. He's a man of honor and tolerance for the differences of life, to a point where he has become a hated enemy of the Coalition States. One such conflict resulted in Stetson picking up a small DeeBee child of psychic ability named Geeluk and caring for her. She refuses to go with anyone else, but in a fight will stay well hidden while Stetson goes to town.

150 points should be sufficient for a "low powered" rifts game. 150 points is sufficient for simulating characters like Jucier, Crazy, Cyberknight, Burster and Mind melter provided you make good use of Elemental Control and Multipowers.

quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
Personaly, I don't think you should pay points for normal equipment...including "MDC" armor and weapons. It makes characters cost more points than necesary.

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I know. Take a look though: I gave # of points with equipment. All told, a headhunter, paying points for his equipment, and not getting a package bonus for his cybernetics and bionics is well into the 300 point range - you can do a Cyber-Knight or a Dragon or a full-powered Borg and psychic for those levels of points easily.

quote:

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150 points should be sufficient for a "low powered" rifts game. 150 points is sufficient for simulating characters like Jucier, Crazy, Cyberknight, Burster and Mind melter provided you make good use of Elemental Control and Multipowers.

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Even a Headhunter with his bionic arm needed a cheat like a "Package Deal" to have his own built-in 10d6 EB. I'd say - make your Rifts Campaign a 250 point game, don't forget that the characters are NCM.

quote:

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If you want a more high powered game with RCC's like Dragon Hatchling and Atlantian Undead Slayers, use 200 points. Equipment should be free (well..bought with money, sweat or blood anyway)

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I dunno... I really am not sure. Rifts characters to me, in all scales, seem Superheroic in scale. Between handguns that can pop a Volkswagon like a zit and armor that allows them protection from Dragon claws...

THE CYBERKNIGHT

5pt elemental control(5):

+3STR/DEX: ACT(12) REAL(7)
+3CON/BOD: ACT(12) REAL(7)
+4PRE/+3EGO: ACT(10) REAL(5)
+1SPD: ACT(10) REAL(5)
+10STN: ACT(10) REAL(5)
PSI Sword-1D6HKA(15)AP(+1/2)0End(+1/2): ACT(30)Real(25)

Cost: 59

Optional PSI Powers:
Note: Many Cyberknights train their mind to the point where they develop Psi powers in addition to the Psisword. Any psi power is applicable. In general these are limited to 30 active points or less at the start and limited in number as well. Add any Psi powers to the Elemental control. Common powers include:
Empathy: (Telepathy, only to read targets emotional state. Includes Detect emotions which is bought targeting)
Mind Block: (+10 Mental Defense, Resistant. Additional abilities include 25% Mental Reduction)
Object Read: (Clairsentience: Retrocognition...based on Focus)
See the invisible
Sense Evil (targeting of course)
Sense Magic (also targeting)
Sixth Sense (danger sense, out of combat, anyone near)
Speed Reading (pretty straightforward)
Summon inner strength (+10STN/+5CON[not af figured] Cost end)

note that the above abilities are typical, but by no means indicate the only abilities a Cyberknight exhibits. Any Psi power can manifest.

Note that the Cyberknight has extensive physical and mental training which is similar to the training that Shaolin monks recieve, and is reflected in the above statistics in the EC. All of the Characteristics DO affect figured characteristics.

Here's the Skill package:

Literacy (w/American): 1pt
Language (Elven/Dragon): 2pts
Language (pick two at basic proficiency): 2pts
KS: Demons and Supernatural evil at +1: 3pts
KS: Anthropology: 2pts
Paramedic: 3pts
Navigation: 3pts
Riding: 3pts
Climbing: 3pts
Acrobatics: 3pts
WF: Small arms: 2pts
WF: Common Melee: 2pts
15 points worth of Martial Arts Maneuvers.
Perk: Fringe Bennie-Cyberknight: 5pts

Skill package 48 points.

Note that the Fringe benefit, CyberKnight means that when the character is recognized as a Cyberknight in many places he will be the object of adulation by the population at large. This is a two sided coin in the fact that, yes, the CyberKnight will often get free food, clothing, gifts, lodging, sex (yeah, the chicks dig them...too bad most C-Knights are boyscouts and turn it down) but they also will be hunted by the Coalition, by evil warlords and intelligent evil beasties. They will also get approached by peasants who will have problems they believe the C-knight will be able to solve...oftentimes problems big enough to get the knight killed.

The following are typical Disadvantage found in Cyberknights:

DNPC: It is common for knights to take on an apprentice. This "squire" will be a burden on the knight until such a time that he is skilled enough to hold his own. Oftentimes knights will be given charge to protect someone for an unspecified amount of time.

Distinctive Feature: Many knights (though not all) dress the part. They wear medieval style armor (though still high tech in manufacture and function), ride war horses (though sometimes Cybernetic or robotic in nature) and use melee weapons (teched out of course) against even advanced opponents. Their behavior as well, is oftentimes so pronounce, it identifies them almost instantly.

Hunted and Watched: More often hunted than watched. The Cyberknight monastery is so remote, that it cannot keep tabs on all of its knights...though certain knights will be watched at times. The Coalition states has a bounty on all Cyberknights, so this is a given.

Psychological Limitation: there are many that would apply, but the main one's include:
Code of the CyberKnight: this is required of all knights. It is a cross between the Code of Chivalry, Code of Bushido and Code of Honor. For most knights it is Common and Total. Any knight who does not follow this code will be brought in to face justice at the monestary by their fellow knights.

Public Identity: Many Cyberknights exploits become legendary. In certain areas, cyberknights often become figures of tall tales. Particularly famous Cyberknights are treated like the Rifts equivalent to a 21st century Movie Star or Rock Star.

Reputation: Cyberknights definately have reputations. If a person is revealed to be a knight, most people how certain preconceptions about them. This can often work against a knight as it will work for them.

Rivalry: A friendly rivalry often arises between knights during their training period. Sometimes Cyberknights and Undead Slayers compete on who is the better slayer of evil.

Secret Identity: Some Cyberknight prefer to go incognito. The amount of attention a cyberknight generates is just too much for their tastes...so they don't dress like a cyberknight, or overtly act like one (or the obvious ones in anycase).

There you have it. The Cyberknight.
Affordable in a 150point game, and not too shabby on the physical side as well.

The Cyberknight package includes most of the skill necesary to get along in the world of Rifts (except for maybe Powered Armor or vehicle piloting) and even after purchasing the Skill package and the basic EC, there is still 43 points let to customize with in a 150 point game or 93 points(!) left in a 200 point game.

Note that the Cyber Armor was left out. I think it should be player choice whether or not their character employs the cyberarmor. In anycase, use subdermal armor characteristics foundin Kazei-5 (should use Subdermal-3 costs 8 points for 7DEF armor which covers locations 9-12)

quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
PSI Sword-1D6HKA(15)AP(+1/2)0End(+1/2): ACT(30)Real(25)
[This message has been edited by NuSoard Graphite (edited 10-29-2001).]

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I'd translate the Psi sword as something a little more powerful, either as a 10d6 EB No Range or a 3d6+1HKA. Your choice vs. PD or ED. Made 0 End, or made into an HKA.

Why? I just can't, in my heart, see a Cyberknight so underpowered. At least with a 10d6 EB No Range, he can do some major hurt to armor. Cyberknights are supposed to be legendarily powerful, truly a superheroic level of character.

I've read this topic from start to finish over the last few days, and it seems to me that the people who are trying to convert the Rifts system to Hero are missing the very reason that the conversion was asked for in the first place: Rifts is completely unbalanced.

Let me pick on NuSoard Graphite for just a second. Although your Juicer and Crazy and Cyber-Knight conversions look really great, and are probably a very accurate conversion, I have a problem with them - they are unbalanced. If you're going to allow Juicers and Crazies to have an EC for Characteristics with absolutely no advantages or limitations, why can't ALL characters have one? Why can't a standard fighter buy STR, CON, DEX, PD, ED, REC, END, and STUN in an EC and save himself a ton of points by claiming to need them in an EC "as a part of the character concept"? To me, that just doesn't wash.

The same applies to Morningstar70's package deal for his character write-up. Now I know that package deals aren't very helpful as written, but they are balanced. The way that I add it up, that character is 219 points without the equipment, not 165. If you are counting the Package Disadvantages as direct subtractions from the cost of the character then you are sidestepping a big balancing factor of the game, and thereby making characters more powerful than their point totals would normally allow. In your defense, though, you mention this fact in your last response, so I'm assuming that you are offering the character as a way of "squeezing in" the character type at about 150 points.

My suggestion to everyone is this: buy the characters just like any other, lest you fall into the same traps that Rifts did. Trying to fit characters who should be much more than 150 points into a 150 point frame, just repeats the problem. The reason those characters were abusive was because they overshadowed all other characters made under the same system. With Hero, we have an opportunity to correct Rifts' mistakes, so why not do it?

Simply build the Juicers, Crazies, Dragons, Cyber-Knights, full-powered Borg, Psychics, and any other character classes under the Hero system guidelines, trimming reasonably when appropriate with small package deals, and if they come out to 300 points, then SO BE IT!

That's the beauty of Hero. If you want to play those kinds of characters, you can. Just let the rest of the players build characters at the same power level, and the balance will usually take care of itself.

Now, having said that, I like the idea of Rifts. I once played a few sessions of TORG, and I loved the concept. I'd like to see continued conversions of these character ideas from either system. I would just like to see them built and balanced within the rules.

I know... picky picky picky. *chuckle*

But that's just me,
Steve

------------------
Knowledge is Power.
Power Corrupts.
Study Hard.
Be Evil!

1) I thought Package points were... Phantom points. I mean, you spend six points in addition to buying all those skills and you only get 3 points off in disadvantages? THAT STINKS! Then again, Package disads went above and beyond the normal disad cost... ahh I should have done it on Creator.

Creator good. Creator give me package.

Not only that, but it chops off any heroic level characters brutally.

2) 219? Were you counting the bionic arm?

3) Rifts is Superheroic point level, but Heroic Genre. In a system where you can have a 100 point reserve multipower, I'd say it's most definitely Superheroic. Maybe more... I forget that the Firebreather can fire bursts, so it's also autofire.

4) Let's try and come to an agreement on the power level of the game. I say that the game falls into a 250 point level campaign, with NCM. Some gave the promotion for Heroic level.

5) I can't quite recall the writeups right now, but those Juicers should have had their extra stats bought through an OIF chemical collar, and the Crazies have their stats bought -1/4 Cybernetic brain implants. (They poke out of the skull at odd points.) BTW - Juicers, by having their Stats pumped up have their lifespan dropped to 2+1d6 years. Crazies have their stats bought at the cost of severe psychosis. Maybe the Crazy attributes should have been bough -1/4 Cybernetic and -1/2 Induces Psychosis Side Effect.

quote:

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Originally posted by Xandarr:

Let me pick on NuSoard Graphite for just a second. Although your Juicer and Crazy and Cyber-Knight conversions look really great, and are probably a very accurate conversion, I have a problem with them - they are unbalanced. If you're going to allow Juicers and Crazies to have an EC for Characteristics with absolutely no advantages or limitations, why can't ALL characters have one? Why can't a standard fighter buy STR, CON, DEX, PD, ED, REC, END, and STUN in an EC and save himself a ton of points by claiming to need them in an EC "as a part of the character concept"? To me, that just doesn't wash.

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The whole point of putting them in an EC is #1 so that All Juicers of the same type have the same bonuses. and #2 to show that a Juicer can fit into a 150pt game if necesary. Personaly, I think Rifts should be a 200 point game (Heroic level...do not pay points for equipment...there is so much of it!) so an EC for a Juicer or Crazy probably wouldn't be necesary.
The bonuses for a CyberKnight probably shouldn't be in an EC...I was just following the template that I started with the Juicer and Crazy conversions.

quote:

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My suggestion to everyone is this: buy the characters just like any other, lest you fall into the same traps that Rifts did. Trying to fit characters who should be much more than 150 points into a 150 point frame, just repeats the problem. The reason those characters were abusive was because they overshadowed all other characters made under the same system. With Hero, we have an opportunity to correct Rifts' mistakes, so why not do it?

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The "balancing factor" in Hero is its point based nature. Even though you might end up saving 20 points by putting the Juicers stat bonuses into an EC, the cost of that EC deprives the Juicer access to 70 some-odd points worth of skills and abilities. A Headhunter or City rat is going to be able to spend those points on Skills, Skill levels or Cybernetics to be able to put himself on par with the Juicer, just in a different way. Sure the City Rat wouldn't be able to take on a squad of Coalition soldiers by himself (any juicer worth his salt can, easily) but he's useful when you are in the city and need to get some black market gear (streetwise, contacts, cyber-hacking gear)
Now that I think about the Cyberknight, the only thing that should probably be in the EC is the Psi-sword and any other Psi-powers they posses.

quote:

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Simply build the Juicers, Crazies, Dragons, Cyber-Knights, full-powered Borg, Psychics, and any other character classes under the Hero system guidelines, trimming reasonably when appropriate with small package deals, and if they come out to 300 points, then SO BE IT!

That's the beauty of Hero. If you want to play those kinds of characters, you can. Just let the rest of the players build characters at the same power level, and the balance will usually take care of itself.

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I would certainly like to try it that way to see if it works okay. I'm sure it would. what we're doing here is just trying to work out the specifics of each character type...how to best represent them. What Hero equivalents match with Palladium ones, etc.
The main thing is that we don't like the Palladium system of combat or skill resolution or Damage etc. (many people hate MDC concept) so thats the reason for translation to Hero. Balance will come through playtest and experimentation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
I'd translate the Psi sword as something a little more powerful, either as a 10d6 EB No Range or a 3d6+1HKA. Your choice vs. PD or ED. Made 0 End, or made into an HKA.

Why? I just can't, in my heart, see a Cyberknight so underpowered. At least with a 10d6 EB No Range, he can do some major hurt to armor. Cyberknights are supposed to be legendarily powerful, truly a superheroic level of character.

BTW, the Dragon Package so far costs 132 points.

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I agree, that the Psi Sword that I had written up is "underpowered" compared to the RIFTS version, however in my conversions keep in mind that I'm throwing out the MDC concept completely. A Psi-sword does not need to be pumped up to 10 or 11 DC to seem impressive. A 6 or 7 DC Psi-sword with appropriate levels of AP (or better yet, AVLD) will be just as effective. It is also assumed that the Psi-sword will be increased in damage capability as the Cyberknight increases in experience.

quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
I agree, that the Psi Sword that I had written up is "underpowered" compared to the RIFTS version, however in my conversions keep in mind that I'm throwing out the MDC concept completely.

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But considering that a laser pistol does 3d6K and a laser assault rifle does 4d6K, I was thinking on par.

quote:

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A Psi-sword does not need to be pumped up to 10 or 11 DC to seem impressive. A 6 or 7 DC Psi-sword with appropriate levels of AP (or better yet, AVLD) will be just as effective.

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And it is worth the same amount of points. You did make it an HKA w/STR adds. Even more since you made it 0 END.

quote:

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It is also assumed that the Psi-sword will be increased in damage capability as the Cyberknight increases in experience.

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Xandarr, that's my take on it. I want to model a bunch of Rifts stuff in Hero, because the Palladium system is sooo stinky. It's not the "unbalanced" part of the system I have a problem with , my problem is with... pretty much all the rest of it. Although, I haven't decided if I'm going to include "Mega-damage" or not. I am looking for what others would/are doing, to try and get some good ideas. I especially like NuSoards' EC for the Juicers and Crazies, because it imposes some uniformity on the "class", and makes them recognizable.
Lemme say again, thanx guys for the help!

quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
A few answers:

1) I thought Package points were... Phantom points. I mean, you spend six points in addition to buying all those skills and you only get 3 points off in disadvantages? THAT STINKS! Then again, Package disads went above and beyond the normal disad cost... ahh I should have done it on Creator.

Creator good. Creator give me package.

Not only that, but it chops off any heroic level characters brutally.

2) 219? Were you counting the bionic arm?

3) Rifts is Superheroic point level, but Heroic Genre. In a system where you can have a 100 point reserve multipower, I'd say it's most definitely Superheroic. Maybe more... I forget that the Firebreather can fire bursts, so it's also autofire.

4) Let's try and come to an agreement on the power level of the game. I say that the game falls into a 250 point level campaign, with NCM. Some gave the promotion for Heroic level.

5) I can't quite recall the writeups right now, but those Juicers should have had their extra stats bought through an OIF chemical collar, and the Crazies have their stats bought -1/4 Cybernetic brain implants. (They poke out of the skull at odd points.) BTW - Juicers, by having their Stats pumped up have their lifespan dropped to 2+1d6 years. Crazies have their stats bought at the cost of severe psychosis. Maybe the Crazy attributes should have been bough -1/4 Cybernetic and -1/2 Induces Psychosis Side Effect.

Just a few thoughts.

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Morningstar, here are the answers to your points:

1. The way that I understand it, package disadvantages don't actually reduce the number of points spent on the skills/powers included in them. They merely give the characters a nice neat format under which they can buy related skills, and grants them a 1-3 point bonus to their Disadvantages. And yes, it does stink, and it is brutal to heroic characters. I personally think it should be done your way.

The problem with that method, though, is that it's wide open to munchkinism in a couple of ways. Someone with a 50 point package will be oodles more powerful than a same-point-total character without any packages at all. Granted, he'll have a few more disads, but it's usually more than worth it. Also, with that system, players will try to justify stuffing as much as possible into their packages, and buying as many packages as possible, so that they don't have to spend character points on any skills and can focus on combat skills and powers. However, a good GM will usually go over each package with a fine-toothed comb. Also, aggressively attacking those package disadvantages at every opportunity will help keep players from abusing packages too much. I personally suggest setting a limit across the board on the number of active points each character can have in packages. Anything above that total is paid for by the character. This encourages each character to buy one or two decent packages at most, since exceeding that will cost them anyway.

2. Yes, I was counting the arm. I didn't consider it equipment since you put it into the package deal. After refiguring, I came up with only 213, so I might have accidentally counted the "real cost" of the Headhunter package in with the "active cost" or something. Here's the breakdown of how I added it all up, based on what I said earlier about packages disadvantages not subtracting from the cost of the character.

Total Cost = 213 (78+93+42)

Characteristics Cost = 78

Skills Total = 93
--Headhunter Martial Arts = 18
--Alertness = 6
--Combat Levels = 25
--Package Skills = 12
--Other Skills and Perks = 32

Bionic Arm Powers = 42

Equipment Cost = 119
--Deadboy Armor = 26
--Radio and IR Helmet = 6
--FireBreather Rifle = 47
--Vibro Knife = 23
--Combat Motorcycle = 17

3. I agree that the Rifts characters listed in previous replies are definitely at the superheroic level, which was why I was suggesting NOT trying to squeeze them into 150 points. Otherwise the "true" 150 point characters who have been built using "normal" standards will pale in comparison.

4. I agree with you about coming to an agreement on the power level of the game. However, since I definitely have no idea of the relative power levels of the characters, other than what I see in the conversions, I'll have to decline from suggesting anything and suggest that those people more experienced with the system do so instead.

5. If the EC's for the Juicers and Crazies had some sort of unifying advantages and limitations, I would have no problem with them. But as written, I feel they're abusive. As to NSG's comment about unifying the class, build a package deal for them and make it a required package for the class. That way, no abuse, but still unified. Even unifying the EC's with limitations and then stuffing them into a package deal would be okay, using the package system given by Hero. Using the system you do (and that I would like to see as well), the GM would have to watch the point totals carefully to ensure balance.

Just my thoughts,
Steve

quote:

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Originally posted by Xandarr:
Morningstar, here are the answers to your points:

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Keen.

quote:

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1. The way that I understand it, package disadvantages don't actually reduce the number of points spent on the skills/powers included in them. They merely give the characters a nice neat format under which they can buy related skills, and grants them a 1-3 point bonus to their Disadvantages. And yes, it does stink, and it is brutal to heroic characters. I personally think it should be done your way.

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Big snip on the Package Deal.

Very good points. One of the things I think also should be put in is that a package should avoid "combat" abilities unless they really don't count - they should be heavy on background and non-combat skills. I know... I cheated for Stetson.

quote:

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2. Yes, I was counting the arm. I didn't consider it equipment since you put it into the package deal. After refiguring, I came up with only 213, so I might have accidentally counted the "real cost" of the Headhunter package in with the "active cost" or something. Here's the breakdown of how I added it all up, based on what I said earlier about packages disadvantages not subtracting from the cost of the character.

Total Cost = 213 (78+93+42)

Characteristics Cost = 78

Skills Total = 93
--Headhunter Martial Arts = 18
--Alertness = 6
--Combat Levels = 25
--Package Skills = 12
--Other Skills and Perks = 32

Bionic Arm Powers = 42

Equipment Cost = 119
--Deadboy Armor = 26
--Radio and IR Helmet = 6
--FireBreather Rifle = 47
--Vibro Knife = 23
--Combat Motorcycle = 17

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Good. Thanks.

quote:

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3. I agree that the Rifts characters listed in previous replies are definitely at the superheroic level, which was why I was suggesting NOT trying to squeeze them into 150 points. Otherwise the "true" 150 point characters who have been built using "normal" standards will pale in comparison.

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No disagreement there. Juicers have superhuman strength and reflexes. Crazies have superhuman strength and psionics. Cyber Knights have Psi-Swords. Headhunters have bionic arms with powerful blasters built in. These are characters with awesome amounts of capability.

quote:

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4. I agree with you about coming to an agreement on the power level of the game. However, since I definitely have no idea of the relative power levels of the characters, other than what I see in the conversions, I'll have to decline from suggesting anything and suggest that those people more experienced with the system do so instead.

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Well, the average attack in a Rifts Game is about 3d6 MDC. That translates, by my reckoning, to about a 55 Active point attack - 11d6 EB's or a 3 1/2d6K attack.

quote:

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5. If the EC's for the Juicers and Crazies had some sort of unifying advantages and limitations, I would have no problem with them. But as written, I feel they're abusive. As to NSG's comment about unifying the class, build a package deal for them and make it a required package for the class. That way, no abuse, but still unified. Even unifying the EC's with limitations and then stuffing them into a package deal would be okay, using the package system given by Hero. Using the system you do (and that I would like to see as well), the GM would have to watch the point totals carefully to ensure balance.

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I'm going to have to come up with my own. How much of a limitation would be "Using Powers and Attributes Kills Users/Drives Users Insane" be? Or would that be a group of Disadvantages attached to the EC?

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Just my thoughts,
Steve

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quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
The whole point of putting them in an EC is #1 so that All Juicers of the same type have the same bonuses. and #2 to show that a Juicer can fit into a 150pt game if necesary. Personaly, I think Rifts should be a 200 point game (Heroic level...do not pay points for equipment...there is so much of it!) so an EC for a Juicer or Crazy probably wouldn't be necesary. The bonuses for a CyberKnight probably shouldn't be in an EC...I was just following the template that I started with the Juicer and Crazy conversions.

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
The "balancing factor" in Hero is its point based nature. Even though you might end up saving 20 points by putting the Juicers stat bonuses into an EC, the cost of that EC deprives the Juicer access to 70 some-odd points worth of skills and abilities. A Headhunter or City rat is going to be able to spend those points on Skills, Skill levels or Cybernetics to be able to put himself on par with the Juicer, just in a different way. Sure the City Rat wouldn't be able to take on a squad of Coalition soldiers by himself (any juicer worth his salt can, easily) but he's useful when you are in the city and need to get some black market gear (streetwise, contacts, cyber-hacking gear).

Juicer Package Elemental Control:
10pt EC:
+10STR/+5PD/+5ED (20pts). Cost:10pts
+5Con/+5Bod (20pts) Cost:10pts
+7Dex (21pts) Cost:11pts
+2SPD (20pts) Cost:10pts
+5REC/+20End (20pts) Cost:10pts
+20Stun (20pts) Cost:10pts.
+5"(x4)running/+5"superleap (20pts) Cost:10pts
Total cost: 81pts (for 141pts worth of characteristics)

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quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
I would certainly like to try it that way to see if it works okay. I'm sure it would. what we're doing here is just trying to work out the specifics of each character type...how to best represent them. What Hero equivalents match with Palladium ones, etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
The main thing is that we don't like the Palladium system of combat or skill resolution or Damage etc. (many people hate MDC concept) so thats the reason for translation to Hero. Balance will come through playtest and experimentation.

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Hope you get it worked out,
Steve

------------------
Knowledge is Power.
Power Corrupts.
Study Hard.
Be Evil!

Juicer Package Elemental Control:
10pt EC:
+10STR/+5PD/+5ED (20pts). Cost:10pts
+5Con/+5Bod (20pts) Cost:10pts
+7Dex (21pts) Cost:11pts
+2SPD (20pts) Cost:10pts
+5REC/+20End (20pts) Cost:10pts
+20Stun (20pts) Cost:10pts.
+5"(x4)running/+5"superleap (20pts) Cost:10pts
Total cost: 81pts (for 141pts worth of characteristics)

3 Juicer Amplification Elemental Control, All Stats OIF Juicer Chemical Collar -1/2,
5 point Reserve
2 a) Increased Physique: +10 STR, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
10 b) Increased Agility: +7 Dex, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
2 c) Increased Endurance: +5 Con, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
2 d) Increased Physique: + 5 Body, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
3 e) Increased Durability: +5PD/+5ED, 5
10 f) Increased Reflexes: +2 SPD
3 g) Increased Endurance: +5 REC
3 h) Increased Endurance: +20 END
10 f) Increased Durability: +20 Stun
7 g) Increased Mobility: +5" x 4 Mobility

Total Cost: 55 points for 126 points worth of Characteristics.

Now for the disadvantages:

15 Phys Lim: Addicted to Juicer Collars, Frequently, Minor
15 Dependance: Juicer Collar (15 points worth, I'm without my book)
15 Phys Lim: Juicer Drugs Will Kill Character 4-8 Years From Getting Juicer Collar.

So, let's say 10 points for being a Drugged Up Superman...

Except you aren't gonna live a long time in game time.

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I'm going to have to come up with my own. How much of a limitation would be "Using Powers and Attributes Kills Users/Drives Users Insane" be? Or would that be a group of Disadvantages attached to the EC?

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I'd say the Kills Users limitation is worth nothing, b/c chances are very good that it'll never come into play. Crazies can be handled with Side FX, a small cumulative transform that adds Psych Limits for 0 bonus to the character.

I wouldn't put Characteristics into an EC.

In fact, I'd set it as a 200 pt or 250pt Heroic campaign, so players don't have to buy equipment and disallow any power frameworks. That'll do wonders to balance things out.

I'd use a lot of the cyberware rules from Surbrook's Stuff/Kazei Five. I don't have Cyberhero, but that may also be a source of inspiration.

Mega Damage: This is just Palladium's way of dealing with things that are so large/tough that normal weapons can't damage them, b/c the system isn't scalable. Hero system is scalable. Discard the notion of MDC and you'll be better off.

Armor: Palladium's rules for armor suck. Discard them as well. (i.e., don't use Ablative defenses just b/c MDC armor takes damage, that's just shoe-horning a bad system into a good one.)

Package Deals: Useless. I don't like them in the first place, but more to the point, some character archetypes are loaded with skills, like City Rat, while others are loaded with stats/Powers, like Juicer, Borg, etc. I agree that Packages shouldn't include a lot of combat skills, so that leaves the good old "suggested skills" list.

Equipment: GM should write up most equipment and vehicles, and assign a point allotment to each character as per Dark Champs. Just make it based off of an "equipment" perk for starting equipment, similar to the wealth perk, and base it on money for buying/replacing/repairing gear in game.

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
Juicer fixer...

Juicer Package Elemental Control:
10pt EC:
+10STR/+5PD/+5ED (20pts). Cost:10pts
+5Con/+5Bod (20pts) Cost:10pts
+7Dex (21pts) Cost:11pts
+2SPD (20pts) Cost:10pts
+5REC/+20End (20pts) Cost:10pts
+20Stun (20pts) Cost:10pts.
+5"(x4)running/+5"superleap (20pts) Cost:10pts
Total cost: 81pts (for 141pts worth of characteristics)

3 Juicer Amplification Elemental Control, All Stats OIF Juicer Chemical Collar -1/2,
5 point Reserve
2 a) Increased Physique: +10 STR, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
10 b) Increased Agility: +7 Dex, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
2 c) Increased Endurance: +5 Con, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
2 d) Increased Physique: + 5 Body, Does Not Affect Figured -1/2
3 e) Increased Durability: +5PD/+5ED, 5
10 f) Increased Reflexes: +2 SPD
3 g) Increased Endurance: +5 REC
3 h) Increased Endurance: +20 END
10 f) Increased Durability: +20 Stun
7 g) Increased Mobility: +5" x 4 Mobility

Total Cost: 55 points for 126 points worth of Characteristics.

Now for the disadvantages:

15 Phys Lim: Addicted to Juicer Collars, Frequently, Minor
15 Dependance: Juicer Collar (15 points worth, I'm without my book)
15 Phys Lim: Juicer Drugs Will Kill Character 4-8 Years From Getting Juicer Collar.

So, let's say 10 points for being a Drugged Up Superman...

Except you aren't gonna live a long time in game time.

Temporal Wizards should be able to stack up Juicers like cordwood with just a wave.

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Not bad, but I still stick by my guns when I say that the first EC has no unifying theme, and that those stats should be bought without the EC. Just pay the extra 60 points and buy them "naked".

But that's just me,
Steve

There's nothing wrong with giving Juicers and Crazies ECs, since the GM is writing them up. Sure, if players were doing the writeups, you'd have a problem. But since the GM defines everything, it's safe. So really, there's not much difference between giving a Juicer an EC and giving him an extra 60 points.

There is however, one reason I came across to allow the use of ECs. Rifts has unbalanced character classes by nature. Players and GMs alike know that a juicer is gonna beat the hell out of a squad of coalition soldiers. As it is (using the ECs, and not paying points for weapons), I found that you can build a nice juicer for 150 points. But if you try and build an average coalition grunt on 150 points, he becomes waaaaaaaaayyy too skilled. Remember, these are guys who can't even read. They're much more accurate if they're built on 100 points. So basically, you've got a breakdown of expense:

At the top of the list:
Cyberknights--the combination of cybernetics, psionics, combat abilities, and skills results in a high cost. 150+ points for a good conversion.

Juicers and Crazies are next. The EC gives a good cost break to these powerful character classes. They don't have a lot of skills, but they make up for it with high stats. 150 points.

Power armor pilots--these characters have good stats and lots of skills. I charged a 25 pt "power armor fee" that bumped them up to 150. Otherwise, 125 points for a solid character.

Grunts--these guys aren't as highly trained as their power armored brothers. If built on 150 points, then they've got way too many skills. 100 points.

Basically, to build a good Juicer/Crazy/Cyber Knight without some kind of cost break is gonna mean that they're gonna be twice as expensive as another character. Putting in the EC gives you a little similarity in point costs, at least. Even then, some characters are gonna be less than others. Any skill character built on a full 150 are gonna have about all the skills they'll need. Champions stats convert almost straight across, so most'll have stats in the 13-18 range (for their good stats) or 10-15 (for their average stats). That means they'll have a ton of points left for skills. That's way more than your average city rat needs.

On power Armor vs. buying stats: Both the Juicer/Crazy get to buy stats cheaper by putting limitations on them. The PA pilot would need to buy his mech out of his equipment allotment, which he'd have to buy up way over anyone else.

I'm loathe to do the math, but if you setup an "equipment" perk on a scale, you can easily balance the classes. First, you need to see what some benchmark "normal" gear costs, then do a ratio to even things out.

Like,

Armament Perk:

0 pts. Allotment is good enough to get some cheap non-environmental armor, a sidearm, maybe a vibro blade.
5 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a suit of light environmental armor, a decent sidearm and either a heavy weapon or a motorcycle.
10 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a suit of medium/heavy armor, heavy hand held weapons, and an ATV or similar vehicle, lightly armored.
15 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a large number of decent weapons, heavy environmental armor, and/or a more heavily armored vehicle, like a robotic walker.
30 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a light Mech, and a couple personal weapons.
45 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a medium mech and some personal gear, or just a heavy mech.

Scaling may be off, but once you've got an idea of where you want everyone's power level, it should be easy enough to balance out.

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
On grunts: Who wants to play an underskilled grunt? I'm not sure, but I think grunts are one of those catch all classes for people who didn't roll high enough to qualify for a cooler class? If you want to be a Coalition soldier, you can play something a bit more elite.

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That's what I always wonder when people say they want to play 250 point Champs characters instead of 375. I ask... Why?

quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
My thoughts on Rifts and ECs:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
There's nothing wrong with giving Juicers and Crazies ECs, since the GM is writing them up. Sure, if players were doing the writeups, you'd have a problem. But since the GM defines everything, it's safe. So really, there's not much difference between giving a Juicer an EC and giving him an extra 60 points.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
There is however, one reason I came across to allow the use of ECs. Rifts has unbalanced character classes by nature.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
Players and GMs alike know that a juicer is gonna beat the hell out of a squad of coalition soldiers. As it is (using the ECs, and not paying points for weapons), I found that you can build a nice juicer for 150 points. But if you try and build an average coalition grunt on 150 points, he becomes waaaaaaaaayyy too skilled. Remember, these are guys who can't even read. They're much more accurate if they're built on 100 points.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
At the top of the list:
Cyberknights--the combination of cybernetics, psionics, combat abilities, and skills results in a high cost. 150+ points for a good conversion.

Juicers and Crazies are next. The EC gives a good cost break to these powerful character classes. They don't have a lot of skills, but they make up for it with high stats. 150 points.

Power armor pilots--these characters have good stats and lots of skills. I charged a 25 pt "power armor fee" that bumped them up to 150. Otherwise, 125 points for a solid character.

Grunts--these guys aren't as highly trained as their power armored brothers. If built on 150 points, then they've got way too many skills. 100 points.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
Basically, to build a good Juicer/Crazy/Cyber Knight without some kind of cost break is gonna mean that they're gonna be twice as expensive as another character.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
Putting in the EC gives you a little similarity in point costs, at least. Even then, some characters are gonna be less than others. Any skill character built on a full 150 are gonna have about all the skills they'll need. Champions stats convert almost straight across, so most'll have stats in the 13-18 range (for their good stats) or 10-15 (for their average stats). That means they'll have a ton of points left for skills. That's way more than your average city rat needs.

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Just because a "city rat" PC isn't a combat monster doesn't mean that they don't need a lot of points or skills. In fact, I'd say that they deserve just as many points simply because they NEED them to survive in a violent world when they don't have the kind of combat skills and powers that someone like a Juicer or Crazy might have. "City rats" survive on such things as Contacts, Favors, maybe even followers. They have to have Presence and Dex pretty decent, plus high skill rolls so they can talk or sneak their way out of trouble. Those skills and perks really add up if you buy enough of them. They can cost just as much as a combat monster, if not more. The head of the Thieves' Guild in any decent sized city is going to have tons of Favors and Contacts, plus a base and oodles of followers. He might not be a good fighter, but he'll probably cost more than most PC's just on perks alone. Lack of combat skills doesn't mean lack of character points.

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
There's one more reason to allow the EC. Rifts has its own internal "balance" to it. Giving Juicer ECs helps keep that balance.

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Not to mention, I think most people in this thread would disagree with you. If you read from the very beginning of the thread, almost everyone says that Rifts was completely UN-balanced... and that lack of balance was one of the major problems with the game. That's one of the major reasons people want the conversions in the first place: taking a good world concept and translating it into a better, more balanced game system.

quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
After all, a juicer gets his stat bonuses from a juicer harness and drugs. A pilot gets his from a SAMAS suit. Why should one pay the full points for his stats, while another gets his for free? That's why it's acceptable to give juicers a cost break.

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Also, regarding equipment, a SAMAS suit can be broken, and if the pilot doesn't have the skills he needs to fix it quickly, he's going to be up the creek in the next battle. Remember than any attack that exceeds a Focus' DEF breaks one power. If you pound on the pilot long enough, stuff is going to start breaking, and he's not going to be as effective for the rest of the fight, maybe even longer than just one fight. That's the disadvantage of equipment: it's fleeting. If someone targets it and hits, they can usually do damage.

If I were a GM, and I had a smart group of NPC's, I would just have them shoot out the legs of any powered armor with their biggest guns as quickly as possible. If any attack exceeds the defense of the armor, it loses it's Running. Now the pilot is a sitting duck. His armor can't walk anymore and people can hit him at will, since his DCV is at least half, and maybe zero. Granted, it wouldn't be easy... that armor is pretty tough from what I've read. Still, the guns are pretty powerful too... some of them do 4d6 Killing. Average of 14 Body. On a good roll, it could do body on just about any armor out there, I think. I'll leave that judgement to the guys doing the conversions, though.

Anyway, I still don't think the EC is a good idea. I'm stubborn that way.

But that's just me,
Steve

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
My main problem is putting Characteristics into ECs. The simplest way to handle it is to simply disallow them and run with "heroic" level restrictions on everyone.

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
On power Armor vs. buying stats: Both the Juicer/Crazy get to buy stats cheaper by putting limitations on them. The PA pilot would need to buy his mech out of his equipment allotment, which he'd have to buy up way over anyone else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
I'm loathe to do the math, but if you setup an "equipment" perk on a scale, you can easily balance the classes. First, you need to see what some benchmark "normal" gear costs, then do a ratio to even things out.

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Like, Armament Perk:

0 pts. Allotment is good enough to get some cheap non-environmental armor, a sidearm, maybe a vibro blade.
5 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a suit of light environmental armor, a decent sidearm and either a heavy weapon or a motorcycle.
10 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a suit of medium/heavy armor, heavy hand held weapons, and an ATV or similar vehicle, lightly armored.
15 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a large number of decent weapons, heavy environmental armor, and/or a more heavily armored vehicle, like a robotic walker.
30 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a light Mech, and a couple personal weapons.
45 pts. Allotment is good enough to get a medium mech and some personal gear, or just a heavy mech.

Scaling may be off, but once you've got an idea of where you want everyone's power level, it should be easy enough to balance out.[/B][/QUOTE]
Scaling aside, I really like this. It's very similar to the Wealth Perk. And why shouldn't it be? It encompases the same concept really, just in physical items rather than in dollars and cents. I think this could really work, simply because it would allow ANY character to buy whatever level of the perk he wants, and stay balanced with the rest of the group. At least, it seems that way at first glance. Anyone disagree?? See any problems with this??

quote:

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
On grunts: Who wants to play an underskilled grunt? I'm not sure, but I think grunts are one of those catch all classes for people who didn't roll high enough to qualify for a cooler class? If you want to be a Coalition soldier, you can play something a bit more elite. If a player really wants to play a Grunt, then they just take less Disadvantages, and they run with a few less points, no biggie, and the lack of disadvantages isn't exactly a bad thing, either.

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Thanks,
Steve

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Just curious here.... what are the limitations on Stats for a Juicer or a Crazy? Some people in the thread indicated that the Juicer has a harness where his stats come from, others say that only PART of the stats come from the harness, and that others come from the body's natural adrenaline and other internal biochemicals. Can you or someone else explain this in detail for me? The class sounds interesting, and I'd like to know more about it. Same for the Crazies. Thanks in advance.

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I'm very familiar with the Juicer class, even though I never played it, and none of the others in my Rifts group ever played one - something obscenely scary about it.

Juicers were an experiment in biochemical augmentation in the Pre-Rifts times. They found that for temporary periods of time, a proper jolt of "juice" could turn one man into someone stronger than Schwartzenegger, faster than Jackie Chan, and capable of putting out as much firepower and dodging as much lead as Chow Yun Fat.

The Juicer Harness is a collar which has been surgically implanted with capillary feeds to certain vital organs. Juicers without their collars are in a world of hurt. They cannot get the regular doses of "stabilizing drugs" (the stuff that keeps them from burning out in less than a year, let alone 6), they also cannot get the stimulus to their natural epinephrine (sp) and adrenalin centers, and finally, they cannot access "the juice" that makes them superhumanly fast and strong.

That's the whole point of a Juicer. You're playing a character who is on a one-way trip to a burnout. Even depriving the collar of all the drugs is not an option - it requires massive surgery and prolonged chemical rehabilitation to bring a person back to normal - and when that happens, it's as if you've placed the Juicer in a slow motion hell.

The Juicer's are mentally addicted to the raw physical power as they were physically addicted to the drugs that were squeezing every ounce of human potential and lifespan out of their body. Some will relapse and return to the Juicer program, their bodies burned out but good. Some are stuck as almost physical weaklings (all stats in the 9-12 range). Some, if they can't find a Juicer center, or can't afford it, go for the cheaper, uglier total Borg conversion to shut off the psychosomatic pain.

On top of that, Juicers take OTHER drugs as well, are heavy drinkers, or engage in a lot of suicidal risks. There's no such thing as a calm and stolid Juicer. They're hyper, jumpy, and the slightest surprise can end up with their fist slammed up to the elbow through an unsuspecting maid's skull when she pops in to do room cleaning.

Balancing it out is the simple fact that you have an automatic dodge (Missile Deflection, Any Attack, SFX: Dodging), and you're a one-man SWAT team. Chances are, even if you're dope-slapping dragons and SAMAS' every day, you'll live those 6 average years to your ugly, final burnout.

Crazies are something else.

Crazies have cybernetic nodules installed directly into the brain, with external caps exposed at random spots on the brain (presumably for easier maintenance). The process is called Mind Over Matter Aumentation, and their other nicknames are occasionally based off slurs like "Momma's boys," "Mommy's" or something like that (if I recall correctly.)

Crazies most notably have superhuman physical strength, perhaps the only non-cybernetically altered or non-true psionic human who is as strong as a Juicer. Reflexes are only slightly increased, however.

Crazies make up for lack of super reflexes with a wide degree of ESP and Telepathic abilities (I don't think Crazies can access psychokinetic abilities).

Unfortunately, all this stimulation takes its toll. In Rifts, at certain levels of experience, you have to begin rolling for whether you go ga-ga, and what ga-ga-ness you get. Starting Crazies are about normal, but the longer they go, the more whacky they get. A truly old and experienced Crazy will be two things: 1) Immensely powerful and capable of kicking your butt from Chi-Town to Atlantis and 2) Completely and utterly nucking futz on a scale that makes the Joker seem like an erudite eccentric.

Let's also not forget that we have magic classes too, Mind Melters and other super psis, and true bionic characters.

Xandarr, I like the idea you have of an equipment allowance.

quote:

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Just curious here.... what are the limitations on Stats for a Juicer or a Crazy? Some people in the thread indicated that the Juicer has a harness where his stats come from, others say that only PART of the stats come from the harness, and that others come from the body's natural adrenaline and other internal biochemicals. Can you or someone else explain this in detail for me? The class sounds interesting, and I'd like to know more about it. Same for the Crazies. Thanks in advance.

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To be honest, I can't remember the details of either class well enough to tell you. I sold all of my Rifts and other Palladium stuff about four or five years ago. I'd have to say that this thread is pretty interesting though, and I may be tempted to pick up another copy of the core book to do some Hero writeups.

From what I recall, both classes were basically stat monsters. In regards to Physical Prowess (DEX), both were on the higher end of the scale, which meant a better chance of dodging. (Combat in Palladium can be summed up (slightly simplified) as roll to hit on d20, then roll to Parry or Dodge on d20, obviously a PP bonus being a good thing in both cases.) They were also encouraged to take armor on the lighter end of the scale.

Basically, both are mercenary martial artists, with limitations on their superhuman stats. Just using NCM in the game would be enough to give them a good edge over the SAMAS pilot, for example. If you buy your stats with limits, effectively making them powers, then you don't have to pay the going over the NCM limit (how I've seen it done in official sourcebooks and how I'd play it in a heroic game) penalties on those powers.

So, Juicers have enhanced stats bought with OIF (-1/2) and DNAFC (-1/2); Crazies have stats bought with Cybersystems (-1/4), Side Effects: Small Cumulative Transform (-1/2); Burnout, only to trigger side effects (lower level of burnout, one or two steps down the scale,let's say one for now) at 13- (-1/4), and DNAFC (-1/2). Full Converson Borgs built with the Kazei Five rules, would round out the grop of characters with innate superhuman stats. Headhunters, some Coalition soldiers, and Cyber Knights may buy Cybernetics, but only limbs. In Rifts, you cannot have too many cybernetics and also use magic or psychic powers, so that should also be considered part of the Cyberware disadvantage, for no additional point break, just to balance things out.

So, what you'd get, just from the perspective of limitations is character types ranked as follows in terms of physical prowess:

Crazies at (-1.5)
Juicers at (-1)
Full Borgs at (-0.75) for Cyberware and DNAFC
Partial Borgs (Cyber Knight, Headhunter, Cyberdoctor) with a few stats from Cyberware systems.

IIRC, that's pretty close to how the physical stats break down for the OCCs in the core books, those three being the stat monsters. Other classes which are probably just NCM are:

City Rat
Scavenger guys, whatever they're called (opposite of City Rat, but I can't recall the OCC name)
Mage types
Psychic types
Dog Boys
Coalition Soldiers
SAMAS and other Power Armor pilots.

Most of these compensate for their lack of stats through skills, powers, or special equipment, but none of them are as good at raw combat ability (base OCV/DCV) on average, as the stat monster types.

In general, Power Armor/Mecha give small bonuses to hit, but not as much as a lot of Champs characters would get from their Iron Man type PA. Usually they're bought as targeting systems and a few adds to natural DEX (PP). I'd say give them one or two CV worth of extra DEX, and another +2-+4 OCV from targeting systems, maybe weapon specific OCV bonuses, depending on what they're using.

quote:

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
Most of these compensate for their lack of stats through skills, powers, or special equipment, but none of them are as good at raw combat ability (base OCV/DCV) on average, as the stat monster types.

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Since Mages and Psychics can do battle mainly with the Advantage "Based on ECV", the Stat Monsters, who usually don't have high Mental Endurances/Egos are pretty much sitting ducks for some truly devestating mystical and psychic attacks. Don't forget also, Mages and Psychics have wonderful things like "Carpet of Adhesion" (Entangle, Area Effect, Sticky - we once trapped a Robototech Valkyrie in the face-down, ass-up, that's the way we like to f*** position with that bad boy...) and the Burster's (pyrokinetic - big time) column of fire (Area of Effect, Hex) which make life difficult for the Juicers. Crazies don't have PP/Dex bonuses anywhere as big as Juicers.

quote:

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In general, Power Armor/Mecha give small bonuses to hit, but not as much as a lot of Champs characters would get from their Iron Man type PA. Usually they're bought as targeting systems and a few adds to natural DEX (PP). I'd say give them one or two CV worth of extra DEX, and another +2-+4 OCV from targeting systems, maybe weapon specific OCV bonuses, depending on what they're using.

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You also forget that a good power armor or robot will have at least one good Explosion attack, or autofire.

And I'd have to be blind stupid not to toss some combat skill levels into a Headhunter, Dog Boy (they ARE skilled fighters) or Psi-Stalker, or any other elite soldier.

You also forget the 'Bots, and the Dragon Hatchling.

The Dragon Hatchling has to be my favorite: It's like having a pocket-sized Martian Manhunter - A shape-changing brick with psychic and mystical powers and a devastanting RKA.

Fortune the Younger wasn't so good at magic (in exchange for a 24 hour a day transformation ability like the Chung Ki Dragons), but he was a great shapeshifter, was one of the group's bricks, had a small pocket of psychic abilities (telepathy, telekinesis, life sense), and after the first couple battles, he had a Technowizard Flame Sword and a SAMAS rail-gun and forearm (with missile launchers) to boot - he earned it in single combat with a SAMAS that dropped him down to 50 MDC before Fortune twisted the pilot's head off. He only wore that when he was either in native dragon form or morphed into something that looked like it could hold it - like a Borg or a SAMAS, a form he liked to take to confuse enemies - he even shifted his nostrils to his back so that he kept his "thrusters" glowing with his flame breath.

quote:

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You also forget...

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LMAO....I sure do. Sold my Rifts stuff long time ago. Thanks for the memories.

Seriously, I think most of the core classes can be balanced out OK within reason. They may not translate to *exact* power levels, but they should be able to fulfill their niches with some creative character design.

I wasn't sure if the Dragon Hatchling was in the core book, but they should be doable.

quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
I'm very familiar with the Juicer class, even though I never played it, and none of the others in my Rifts group ever played one - something obscenely scary about it.

(snip the most excellent Juicer and Crazy descriptions)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
Let's also not forget that we have magic classes too, Mind Melters and other super psis, and true bionic characters.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
Xandarr, I like the idea you have of an equipment allowance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Morningstar70:
One thing that should be done is to figure the costs of this gear. That's why I bought the equipment with points, to figure out the "Real costs." Equipment allowance should be along the lines of how you pay for Vehicles at 1/5 "Real Points." That way you spend 9 points for an assault laser like the Firebreather, for example. The Equipment allowance should have 1 point for "spares" just in case one breaks in combat (we had lots of weapons jam in Rifts combat - and a misfiring grenade launcher nearly blew our Ley Line Walker to confetti).

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Thanks again,
Steve

Eep!

Name: Fortune the Younger, Great Horned Dragon Hatchling

Val Char Cost
30 STR 20
20 DEX 30
24 CON 28
13 BODY 6
18 INT 8
18 EGO 16
15 PRE 5
10 COM 0
12 PD 6
10 ED 5
4 SPD 10
11 REC 0
48 END 0
40 STUN 0

Characteristic Rolls:
STR: 15-, DEX: 13-, CON: 14-, INT: 13-, EGO: 13-, PER: 13-
Run: 6", Swim: 2", Jump: 2", Lift: 3200kg

Cost Powers END/Roll
20 Dragon Flesh Elemental Control
25 a) Shapeshifting: Any Form, 0 End +1/2
18 b) Growth: 2 Full Levels, 0 End Persistant +1, Can Only Be Turned Off With
Shapeshift -1/4, Does Not Affect Physical Characteristics -1, x4 Height, x 128 Mass, -6"
Knockback, +2" Reach, -4DCV, +6 to Others' PER
25 c) Shrinking: 3 Levels, 0 End +1/2
22 d) Dragon Toughness: +14rPD, +14rED

60 Dragon Natural Abilities Multipower 60 point Reserve
3u Claws: 2d6 HKA (4d6 w/ STR)
6u Flame Breath: 12d6 EB
4u Teleportation: 30", Act 14- -1/2
1u Regenerative Abilities: 2d6 Aid to All Char, Only to Starting Values -1/2, Self Only -1/4

13 Dragon Flight Multipower: OAF Wings (-1), Only While Shapeshifted to Form With
Wings (-1/4)
3u Flight: 15"
3u Gliding: 30"

12 Psionics Elemental Control, 1/2 DCV -1/4
12 a) Telepathy: 6d6
12 b) Mind Scan: 6d6
20 c) Telekinesis: 20 STR w/Fine Manipulation
12 d) Clairsentience: Sight, 400"

Cost Skills, Talents, Perks Roll
6 +2 w/Strike, Claws, and Flame Breath
2 Archeology 11-
2 Area Knowledge: Chi-Town State 11-
3 Deduction: 13-
3 Disguise: 11-
0 Dragonese (Native)
4 English (Idiomatic and Literate)
2 KS: Coalition Military 11-
3 Navigation: 11-
3 Survival 11-
5 WF: Small Arms, Railguns, Common Melee Weapons
12 Equipment Allottance (SAMAS Rail Gun)

150+ Disadvantages
15 Distinctive Features: Dragon, Concealable, Major Reaction
25 Hunted: The Coalition, More Powerful, NCI, 11-
10 Hunted: Dragonslayers (Race), As Powerful, 8-
20 Hunted: Splugorth Conspiracy in NorthAm, More Powerful, NCI, 8-
15 Rivalry, Other Dragons, Professional and Romantic, PC Dragons too.
10 Psych Lim: Prankster, Common, Moderate
15 Psych Lim: Daredevil Mentality, Common, Strong
20 Psych Lim: Noblesse Oblige, Uses Powers to Protect Those Weaker Than Him,
Common, Total
15 Psych Lim: Likes Humans and DeeBees, Wants Their Approval, Common, Strong
15 Psych Lim: Hatred of the Coalition, Common, Strong
15 Psych Lim: Sense of Duty to Dieter Sprockets' NGR North American Expedition,
Common, Strong
10 Watched: NGR Military, More Powerful, NCI, 8-
112 Baby Dragon Bonus

Equipment

(90/18) SAMAS Rail Gun: 4d6 RKA, +1 Stun Multiplier, 200 Charges +1, OAF Rail Gun

OCV: 7; DCV: 3/7/10; ECV: 3; Mental Def.: 0; Phases: 6,12
PD/rPD: 2/0; ED/rED: 2/0

COSTS: Char.: 134 Disad.: 297
Powers: + 301 Base: + 150
Total: = 447 Total: = 447

The son of a dragon who grew to maturity in the ages before the Rifts, Fortune the Younger, at only 1 year of age, is hoping to live up in his father's image as a hero. Post-Rifts, he has his father's abilities of shapeshifting that allowed him to spend his entire pre-Apocalyptic life as a normal human or a superhero at alternating times in human history.

Young and playful, Fortune joined the rather odd collection of a mage, a demigod, a Macross pilot and Captain Deiter Sprockets of the New German Republic's North American Expeditionary Force. Actually, Dieter just was a test pilot who stepped through a Rift in the middle of combat and ended up in North America. Lacking a suitable battalion to back him up, he fell in with an odd lot, all Deebees of one form or another, and enlisted them all in the New German Republic's North American Expeditionary Force. It was his capture of the Macross Pilot's Valkyrie Veritech that allowed the New German Republic's Navy to develop a transformable submarine.

Fortune enjoys being part of the NGRNAEF, keeping tabs on the Coalition (his hated enemy) who the NGR are wary of completely allying with due to their extremist views. He also likes to take the form of a German Shepherd and ride inside of Dieter's cockpit in normal travel with the rest of the human-sized travellers. If "something bad" comes up, he teleports out of the cockpit as a nasty surprise. His playfulness and shapeshifting abilities have made him a bit of an annoyance at times (growing to full size inside of a magic shop when they tried to rip him off, or walking into a pub as Dieter's exact twin have not endeared him at times), but his power is sufficient that his partners can overlook his "eccentricities."

That method I used was only an example to show that the juicer and crazy could fit into a 150pt campaign. Its not the way I would do it (I'd use 200 points for RIFTS). I would use the method where the limitations would apply to the extra characteristics.

I do like the side effects: Cumulative transform (to insane person) to represent the crazy eventually going completely bonkers. Thats perfect.

For those who are unfamiliar with exactly how much a Juicer physically rises above the other classes in RIFTS, here you go:

Super Endurance: Add 1D4X100 SDC. Add 1D4X10 Hit points. Add 2D6 to P.E. (Physical Endurance) Can lift and carry 4 times more than a normal person of equivalent strength and endurance, and can last 10 times longer before feeling the effects of exhaustion. Can remain alert and operate at full efficiency for up to 5 days without sleep. Normally needs only 3 hours of sleep per day.

Super Strength: Add 2D6 to P.S. (physical Strength of course). Note: Minimum P.S. is 22. If lower than 22 adjust up to P.S. 22

Super Speed: Add 2D4X10 to Spd attribute (Running and swimming movement) can leap 30 feet across after a short run and 20 feet high.

Super reflexes and reaction time: an accellerated metabolism makes everything around the juicer seem to move in slow motion. Bonuses: +4 to roll with punch, fall or impact. +4 on Initiative; gets an automatic parry or dodge on all attacks, even from behind/suprise; Add two extra attacks per melee (15 seconds=1 melee turn in RIFTS); and add +2D4 to P.P. (Physical Prowess=DEX) Note: minimum P.P. is 20, if lower adjust up to 20. Penalties: Cannot sleep without sedative or tranquilizers. Tends to be a bit jumpy and anxious; boredom is a constant enemy (the bio-comp will counter with tranquilizers and euphoria drugs to make the juicer feel good/zone out, but can nearly instantly counter and make the juicer alert again in 1 melee round)

Saving Throw bonuses: +4 to save vs Psionics; +6 to save vs Mind Control; +8 to save vs toxic gases, poisons and other drugs {Note: Bio-comp can slow the blood flow or increase oxygen levels to slow the effects of drugs or inject natural and synthetic chemicals to counter immediatly. Likewise the Juicer can slip into a trance-like state to conserve oxygen.

Enhanced Healing: Heals four times faster than normal. +20% to save vs Coma and death. Virtually impervious to pain, no amount of physical pain will impair the juicer until he is down to 5 hit points or less. At this point, the Juicer will fall into a trance/coma which is the a bio-comp induced excellerated healing state.

Player's note: The Juicer character will die after five years and 4D6 months of being a chemically induced super man! There are no exceptions! No saving throws, no hope. The body is destroyed, used up. Not even psionic healing, magic restoration or even resurrection (-50%) can help.

That is the Juicer in a nutshell. All the palladium based bonuses included.

For those who don't know.

Characteristic ranges in Palladium are fairly standard in the RPG industry. 2 being decrepit, 10ish being average, 20 or so being top-level of human achievement. (24 being normal human maximum, not counting bonuses from physical skills). This translates fairly straightforward in Hero. However P.S (Physical Strength) should be converted based on lift ability. Characters with normal strength (between a 3 and 15) can lift (maximum) 20 times their strength in pounds (carry weight is half that). Thus a palladium character with a P.S. of 13 (260lbs/118Kg) has an equivalent STR of 11 (lift 120kg/264lbs) in Hero.
However, strong characters in palladium can lift a lot more. A character with a strength of 16 or better can lift 40 times their PS score in pounds (and carry half that weight) thus a Palladium character with a P.S. of 22 (880lbs/400Kg) is the equivalent to a STR 20 in Hero. A juicer, however can lift and carry 4 times more than a "normal" person of equivalent strength, thus a Juicer with the minimum P.S. can lift 3520lbs/1600Kg (STR 30!)!!! A Juicer with maximum strength (around PS 40!) can lift 6400lbs/2900Kg or around STR 34!

SDC are like Stun points. Hit points are like body (everybody should be familiar with that term) under normal circumstance, damage is subtracted from SDC before subtracting from Hit points. When all SDC is gone, the character can pass out from pain and shock. When hit points are gone, the character is dying. Note that characters gain SDC based on their class type. Many physical skills give a bonus to SDC. Average SDC is between 50 and 75. 100 being not uncommon to very physically oriented characters (Cyberknight, Headhunter, etc). Notice that Juicers get an additional 1D4X100 added to SDC!!! This makes them difficult to impossible to take out with conventional weaponry. I would give Juicers a shitload of stun or perhaps some damage reduction to simulate this, however I think the best method is a combination of higher than normal defenses (to simulate their ability to shrug off stun damage) and high stun score (minimum of 50 or so)
In palladium, characters generally have a number of hit points equal to their Physical Endurance stat plus 1D6 per level of experience (ack! I hate levels!). Juicers get a bonus of 1D4X10 to that number. Difficult to knock out AND kill. Thats at least a bonus of +5 to Body.

Rifts is balanced in a way that most people find laughable. Juicers are quite powerful, but they absolutely pale in comparison to classes like Dragons, Vampires, and (god forbid) Cosmo Knights (Cosmo Knights kick ass). That said, character classes do have a sort of balance in them, but one that does not translate over to Champions as limitations.

Cosmo Knights are the Green Lanterns of the Megaverse. They're f&*%ing powerful, but they have to follow a really strict paladin-ish code.
Juicers are really tough, but they burn out in only a few years.
Dragons are powerful, but they've got an EP chart from hell.

All of these characters thus have their own "balance". They're not balanced in a Champions point-sense, but they do have their downsides. Just like D&D; characters have their own balance, but won't work out to equivalent points in Hero.

By allowing a Juicer EC, it allows you to simulate the difference in ability between a "1st level" juicer and a "1st level" whatever else. While they both work out to 150 points, they're definitely NOT going to be equivalent power levels (they're not supposed to be). One could argue that we should just have them pay points for everything they've got, and that's fine. But I view the EC as sort of countering the "you're gonna die in 5 years" limitation that really doesn't have a place in Champions. Thus, the "balance" in Rifts is maintained. It's not balanced in Hero terms, but it's fine in Rifts terms.

quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
It's not balanced in Hero terms, but it's fine in Rifts terms.

I guess the best way to explain Rifts "balance" (and I put it in quotes because it's not the traditional Hero definition of balance) is to relate it to pre-4th Edition Hero, where you could just pile on disadvantages until you were 100 Base Points and like 500 worth of Disads. In Rifts, you may be much more powerful, but you're gonna pay a much higher price later on. That's why it's "balanced".

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I agree. That's why I suggested giving out about 100 or so base pts and letting players build with as many disadvantages make sense for the type of Rifts characters they're building.

I'm thinking that a base 150 would do better, perhaps. If the player wants a grunt or lower powered character, he can just buy 50 to 75 pts in Disads to pay for it. If he wants a dragon hatchling or something similar, he can take 150 in Disadvantages (and you should be able to find plenty, though the "dies in X years" isn't really worth anything in most games) and play a 300 pt. monster. If you emphasize roleplaying, and keep the Munchkin Monitor tightly focused on the creation process, there's no reason everyone can't play the kind of character they want and have fun, without feeling robbed b/c the characters are "unbalanced."

quote:

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Originally posted by Corvus:
So NuSoard, when you said: "I would use the method where the limitations would apply to the extra characteristics." you were talking about a focus type limitation (harness for the juicer, metal knobbies for the crazys). Would that be OIF or IIF for the harness, remembering that usually the harness would be under their armor... I would say the juicer would have to take a distinctive feature, too.

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I would consider it to be OIF because the harness has injection points around the neck and wrists that are fairly difficult to hide (under a big cloak maybe) so wearing normal clothing and armor would not hide these, unless it was custom built. Also, people know what juicers are, so its pretty obvious, once you've figured out what he is, where the harness is and all. But remember, the harness and drug injections are only part of the augmentation. The other half comes from natural chemicals (adrenaline etc) that micro-implants tell your body to release when necesary. Even if the Harness were removed/destroyed, the Juicer would still have half of the bonuses available to him...

quote:

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Originally posted by NuSoard Graphite:
I would consider it to be OIF because the harness has injection points around the neck and wrists that are fairly difficult to hide (under a big cloak maybe) so wearing normal clothing and armor would not hide these, unless it was custom built. Also, people know what juicers are, so its pretty obvious, once you've figured out what he is, where the harness is and all. But remember, the harness and drug injections are only part of the augmentation. The other half comes from natural chemicals (adrenaline etc) that micro-implants tell your body to release when necesary. Even if the Harness were removed/destroyed, the Juicer would still have half of the bonuses available to him...

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Let the implants that control the adrenal functions, etc., be bought as Cyberware (-1/4), and DNAFC if you like. That way, you get some point break on the "base" stats. The harness can be bought as an OIF multipower full of appropriate Aids, with a five minute fade rate. Buy a Dependance disadvantage to make the Juicer dependant on the harness.

quote:

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Originally posted by PatternGhost:
Let the implants that control the adrenal functions, etc., be bought as Cyberware (-1/4), and DNAFC if you like. That way, you get some point break on the "base" stats.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Champsguy:
Except that the stat bonuses would affect figured characteristics. Juicers get all the bonuses from figured stats in their description (harder to hurt, more SDC and hit points, faster healing, more endurance).

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Maybe you missed "if you like"...it's up to you. I can see giving SPD, DEX and STR and buying armor, damage reduction and regen to represent a Juicer. You can do it all with stats, too. There's never a single "right" way to do something in Hero.

Curiously,
Steve

Would you treat lay lines as a triggered aid to PPE(enduracne pool)?

-----------Line Walker OOC-Abilities---------
Line Walker Abilities: Elemental Control
(15)EC(15)
1.(7) Detect ley line- Detect as a
sense(5), Ranged (5), No Ranged
Penaltes(+1/2), Disciminitory
Sense(5)
2.(5) Detect Ley Line Nexus- Detect as a
sense(5), Ranged (5), No Ranged
Penalties(+1/2), Only on a Ley Line
(-1/2), Discriminitory Sense(5)
3.(10)Detect Rift- Detect as a sense(5),
Discriminatory Sense(5), Ranged(5), No
Ranged Penalties(+1/2)
4.(0) Detect Magic- Detect as a sense(5),
only while in use(-1/2), Ranged(5),
no range penalty (+1/2)
5.(0) Detect Magic Energy- Detect as a Sense
(5), Ranged(5), No Ranged Penalty(+1/2)
6.(6) Send Message "Images"- Sight and Sound
Senses(15), Anywhere on a Ley Line
(+1/2), Only Mesages(-3/4), only this
Characters voice and face(-3/4), no
endurance to use(+1/2)
7.(23)Ley Line Phasing "Teleport"- Standard
Teleport(20), Floating Location(5),
No Study required(+1), Anywhere on a
Ley Line(+1/2), No Endurance to use
(+1/2), No Disorentation(+1/2),
Concentration 0DCV(-1/2), 5 charges
(-3/4), Extra time Full turn(-1)
8.(0) Line Drifting "Gliding"- Gliding
10"(10), No Loss in Altitude(+1/2),
only on Ley Lines(-1/2)
9.(3) Ley Line Rejuvination- Aid to Body 6d6
(30), Only up to the starting value
(-1/2), Charges 1(-2), Extra time 5min
(-2)
10.(4)Ley Line Observation Ball-
Clairsentience "Sight and Sound"(25),
only on Ley Lines (-1/2), OAF Fragile
(-1 1/4)
11. PPE- Endurance Pool

This is where i'm wondering what other people think. I want to simulate the relationship of the ley line and PPE but I don't know if the endurance pool is right for this. also should I have a Magic user Multipower with things like "drain END to PPE" to simulate stealing PPE and how about Aid to endurance 25d6, no more than 5x their END, only while killing the character or NPC(-2) to simulate the burst of PPE in a dieng creature. Or, maybe all Rifts characters should have a PPE endurance pool?

any ideas.