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Sunday, January 23, 2005

Dean on "This Week" Transcript

On Sunday, January 23, 2005, Governor Dean was a guest on This Week with George Stephanopoulos. The following is a transcript of that appearance.

George Stephanopoulos: That was Kweisi Mfume on last week's program, Now we're joined by the man he's talking about, Governor Howard Dean, who is running for DNC Chair. And let me put up that map, that Kweisi Mfume was talking about. Boy there is just a sea of red across the country there and a lot of Democrats fear that you're not the man who can turn it blue. What do you say to that?

Howard Dean: Well, I say the Chairman of Mississippi, and the Chairman of Oklahoma and the folks in Utah and the whole delegation in Florida think I can change it. I'm doing fundraisers in these places, whether I become the Chair or not. You know, the way you win in the red states, George, is first of all to show up. We've conceded the entire South and a good bit of the Rocky Mountain West. We can't do that anymore.

Stephanopoulos: Is showing up enough though?

Dean: No, it's not enough, but it's a good start. There is a reason the trial lawyers used to pick Mississippi for their favorite venue before tort reform down there. Because juries in Mississippi are suspicious about large corporations. That's something they share with a lot of Democrats. In fact, a lot of Americans all over the place. There is no reason we can't win in Mississippi.

I have an organization called Democracy for America; we elected the first African-American judge in Montgomery, Alabama—or helped elect—the county executive in the largest county in Utah, state senators in North Carolina and Idaho and places like that. These are all red states. I think that we Democrats can win in red states. We've got to push what we do down to the states. We cannot run an 18-state strategy, it has to be a 50-state strategy.

Stephanopoulos: You know, we heard from a DNC member who loves what you're doing with that organization, he also says he expects you're going to bring a lot of energy to the party. In the email he also raises some concerns about you, I want to show them. He said, "1) He's worried that you're going to perform the role of a punching bag for the right as the embodiment of Democratic detachment and 2) That your candidacy is enforcing the press' view the Democrats are lost and dispirited by turning to a madman to lead us." You're talking to all of these delegates, and I assume that many are raising similar questions. How do you answer them?

Dean: [Laughs] Well actually, many aren't raising similar questions. Many believe that the way to win races is to run a 50-state strategy and build grassroots efforts and put money into all 50 states and the territories. The other thing that they believe is that we need a clear message.

Look, Newt Gingrich—who I'd agree agree with almost nothing about in terms of policy—but Newt Gingrich decided that he was going to try to take back the Congress by drawing a clear distinction between Democrats and Republicans. And he succeeded. Before that, the minority in the House—Republicans—were really kind of around the edges of what the Democrats were doing and they weren't getting anywhere. I think we've got to draw a clear distinction.

We have different moral values than what the Republicans say they have. They say their moral values are about making sure gay people don't get ahead and making sure that women can't make up their mind about their own kind of health care. I say our moral values are feeding hungry children, having job opportunities and educational opportunities for every single American, and restoring a foreign policy which is not just based on a very strong military—which I'm very proud of—but also strong moral authority, which this president has abdicated in the world.

Stephanopoulos: You say you want to draw a clear distinction, but right now Republicans have the White House, they have the House, they have the Senate, so drawing a clear distinction means opposition. You saw the charge that was leveled against Tom Daschle when he lost last year... obstructionist. How do Democrats avoid that charge?

Dean: Well, they're going to call us every name in the book, and that's what they've done for a long time. Look, there are some things we can support the President on. I happen to support the President on the notion that we ought to have elections on January 30th, so we can withdraw—

Stephanopoulos: In Iraq?

Dean: In Iraq... well I wouldn't mind here again either...[laughs] but in Iraq, so we can withdraw our troops as fast our possible in an orderly way. So there's some agreement that I have with the President. I daresay other Democrats find some common ground with the President. But the truth is, the President has embarked on a course which is bad for this country.

Borrowing $2 trillion and then cutting benefits for seniors is not a good thing for either our children, or for the seniors. I think Democrats are justifiable in standing up against a President who wants to cut benefits and then pass the debt onto our children. Those are the kinds of things we need not support the President on.

Stephanopoulos: Let's stick with Iraq for a second, you say you support the elections. A lot of people are wondering what happens the day after, and some Democrats are starting to say, what we need now is a fixed timetable for withdrawal. Marty Meehan of Massachusetts just got back from Iraq and called for that. Is that a good idea?

Dean: I'm not going to get into that—that's a policy area that Congress people are going to be responsible for. If Marty Meehan just got back from Iraq, who am I to come on a Sunday talk show and disagree with his assessment?

The way that I hope we're going to have a unified message—should I become the DNC Chair—is to sit down with the Democratic leadership in Congress and then find a common thread that will help us win, not just in Minnesota and New York, but in Alabama and Mississippi.

Stephanopoulos: In the short term, does that mean opposing the President's agenda?

Dean: It means opposing the President when he's wrong, and the President is frequently wrong. The President says nice words, but there's little follow up or the follow up is inconsistent with what Americans want. Which, as I said, is job opportunities and better opportunities for their children in education. And we need to do something serious about health care. We are the last industrialized country on the face of the earth that does not have some sort of health insurance for all of it's people. There's no reason we shouldn't join the rest of the civilized world in that area.

Stephanopoulos: You mention the President's nice words. What did you think of the Inaugural?

Dean: I thought it was nice words. Who could possibly disagree with "freedom" and "liberty"? Of course we want freedom and liberty around the world. I didn't hear anything about the mess he's created in Iraq, I didn't hear anything about health care, I didn't hear anything about jobs. You know, the stock market is doing okay, but ordinary people are not doing okay in this country and I think the Democrats are the ones that can fix that.

Stephanopoulos: Let me turn back to some of the other concerns that have been raised about your candidacy. One of them is that a lot of Democrats look back on your Presidential campaign, saw that you raised $50 million and then wondered what happened to it. Here's a clip from Knight Ridder—it said, "Dean's campaign raised a Democratic record $50 million, but he spent it as fast as it came in. They invested in expensive gimmicks such as Vermont chocolates for supporters and elaborate four-color fliers. After Iowa, only about $3 million was left." If you're going to be running the DNC, you're going to be running a $300 million enterprise. How do you convince Democrats you can manage that money?

Dean: First of all, we've obviously changed around the management team that we had in the campaign, we're not doing those kinds of things. Second, when I was governor, I was once rated (as shocking to me as it was to them), the fourth most fiscally conservative governor in the country by the Cato Institute—not exactly known as a great supporter of liberals. I would say that I have a long track record of fiscal responsibility. Terry McAuliffe has left the DNC in fantastic shape, fiscally. I went to visit with them, I'm convinced there are very good fiscal controls over there and that we will spend our money wisely.

Stephanopoulos: Some Democrats urging Terry McAuliffe to stay on.

Dean: I've talked to Terry about it and I'm going to let him speak for himself on that. I think that we always see those things come up in hard-fought campaigns. I saw it in the presidential campaign. I think he probably won't do that, but he should speak for himself.

Stephanopoulos: Why do you think that so many Democrats here in Washington—and I'll take two, Nancy Pelosi, the Democratic leader of the House and Harry Reid the Democratic leader in the Senate—are encouraging others to get into this race?

Dean: I'm very independent and I'm from outside of Washington. Washington has a peculiar culture that's different than everywhere else in the country. In Washington, it's very important to know your place and to have a place. People have worked hard to get to Washington, and once they are here, even second or third place is better than first place. I don't believe that in politics. I think there's only one place in politics that counts, and that's first place and I think it's time the Democrats took first place back.

Stephanopoulos: We've read that you've been talking a lot to former President Clinton, what kind of advice is he giving you?

Dean: I never say and I'm always asked. President Clinton is a delight to speak with and he gives great advice on practically every subject. I do talk to him from time to time, as well as other prominent folks in the Party, but I never reveal—

Stephanopoulos: Do you think he could have won last year's election?

Dean: I think Bill Clinton could probably win any election he ever ran for. We don't see people like Bill Clinton come along very often. The last one with that particular blend of both charisma and political savvy was probably F.D.R.

Stephanopoulos: And what lessons do you draw from that? I mean, the next time around do Democrats need a candidate that's from the South—

Dean: That's exactly what we cannot do. That's why I'm running for DNC Chair. Democrats hope that once in a while a John F. Kennedy or a Bill Clinton will come along and all of the sudden... aha. We can't do that. What the Republicans have is a better system than ours. Now we made great strides in this election, but the Republicans have 14,000 people on the ground in Ohio, we have to bring them in.

Now the next time, through training and through money to the state parties and building up state parties and grassroots organizations, I want to have a system that's as good as the Republicans'. And the time after that, I want to have a system that's better than the Republicans', because the one thing the Republicans don't do is empower their people on the ground. They give the orders from on high and then the masses go forth and do their bidding. I think if you empower people on the ground to make their own decisions, the Democrats can win again. I'm interested in this because of the systems, not because of the policy.

Stephanopoulos: We're just about out of time. Two quick questions. Would you vote to confirm Condi Rice as Secretary of State?

Dean: No. I think John Kerry and Barbara Boxer made the right vote. I think Condi Rice is a capable person, but her chief attribute in this position is loyalty to the President. I think we need someone who is an independent thinker who is willing to give the President advice that he doesn't want to hear. I don't think that's a hallmark of most Bush appointees.

Stephanopoulos: And how about Judge Gonzales for Attorney General?

Dean: I haven't made up my mind on that because it's too far out, but I'm inclined to agree with Senator Biden. I think Alberto Gonzales is a wonderful American story of somebody who started from nothing and has a tremendous career, but the torture memos are deeply, deeply concerning for any American Attorney General to have said it's okay to use torture under certain circumstances, which is essentially the thrust of those memos. That's of deep, deep concern to me.

Stephanopoulos: Governor Dean, thank you very much.

Dean: George, thanks for having me on.

Posted by Tara Liloia at 02:56 PM
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First Dean is.

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 02:59 PM | Link
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Dean and Democracy are first!

GO EAGLES!

Posted by: NM*Mom*for*Dean at January 23, 2005 03:00 PM | Link
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(Stephen Stills)

So things have gotten weird for you
The foolish do the things they do
Mostly talk right at you without speaking

They're deaf and blind and they cannot think
But now they want to be your shrink
Probing for the missing link and freaking

And it's all about how you got strange
Indifferent to their fear of change
And feeling strong enough to get you peaking

(It's my life)
And I ... I have no tears left
(It's my life)
And I ... well, I ain't done yet
What do I have left

And you rage at their transparency
And total insincerity
That love is why they have to try and help you

But mostly it's about control
They're terrified that you might go
And find out for yourself what they can't teach you

Generations that go through this
The young are punished for their disregard
For every fool who might want to lead them

But living in the here and now
Will cleans the waste of the sacred cows
That clutters up the past you might be seeking

So go ahead and rage and fight
Insist on finding your own light
As wisdom cannot be confused by freedom

(It's my life)
I ... I have no tears left
(It's my life)
I ... well, I ain't done yet
(It's my life)
I got no tears left
(It's my life)
Well, I ain't done yet
What the hell do I have left


Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 03:02 PM | Link
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more on the DNC chair forum from yesterday:

Dean said his same old stuff. We need to run 4 year, 50 state campaigsn, we need to put the money we make back into the states, if he became chair be would put 2 grass roots organizers in every state and territory, and they way we win in the red states is by showing up.

Oh and BTW, there was free Ben & Jerry ice cream at the event, it wasn't until afterwards that I found out that the ice cream was complements of Howard Dean!

Posted by: Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 03:02 PM | Link
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(Stephen Stills)

So things have gotten weird for you
The foolish do the things they do
Mostly talk right at you without speaking

They're deaf and blind and they cannot think
But now they want to be your shrink
Probing for the missing link and freaking

And it's all about how you got strange
Indifferent to their fear of change
And feeling strong enough to get you peaking

(It's my life)
And I ... I have no tears left
(It's my life)
And I ... well, I ain't done yet
What do I have left

And you rage at their transparency
And total insincerity
That love is why they have to try and help you

But mostly it's about control
They're terrified that you might go
And find out for yourself what they can't teach you

Generations that go through this
The young are punished for their disregard
For every fool who might want to lead them

But living in the here and now
Will cleans the waste of the sacred cows
That clutters up the past you might be seeking

So go ahead and rage and fight
Insist on finding your own light
As wisdom cannot be confused by freedom

(It's my life)
I ... I have no tears left
(It's my life)
I ... well, I ain't done yet
(It's my life)
I got no tears left
(It's my life)
Well, I ain't done yet
What the hell do I have left


Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 03:02 PM | Link
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OOPs. sorry about the double post. Puter went wonky there for a minute while it was deleting an infected file.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 03:03 PM | Link
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"Stephanopoulos: You say you want to draw a clear distinction, but right now Republicans have the White House, they have the House, they have the Senate, so drawing a clear distinction means opposition. You saw the charge that was leveled against Tom Daschle when he lost last year... obstructionist. How do Democrats avoid that charge?

Dean: Well, they're going to call us every name in the book, and that's what they've done for a long time."

YES!

and this -

"Stephanopoulos: In the short term, does that mean opposing the President's agenda?

Dean: It means opposing the President when he's wrong, and the President is frequently wrong."

YES, YES, YES!

This is what the Democrats need to understand!

They are the MINORITY OPPOSITION. They feel like they are the majority, they say repeatedly that the majority of the American people share their views and values. But the REALITY within the system of government now is that they are the MINORITY OPPOSITION. They need to begin to act as such!

Reframing - framing - is great! But don't get bogged down in spending all your time examining what the other side thinks of you so you can reframe the information!

Spend your time defining your own values, then verify that the language you use hasn't been co-opted and controverted by the other side, then USE IT!


Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 03:09 PM | Link
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The songs from the 60's and 70's had a lot of political content. And they are still relevant.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 03:10 PM | Link
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Looks like Dean has got his stump speech down. A lot of the same lines he used in the Fox interview. It sounds like it went well. I wish I had seen it. It's so much better seeing and hearing him speak then just reading the words. Sigh...dang blizzard!

Posted by: Christine in Mass. at January 23, 2005 03:11 PM | Link
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AFLCIO Comes Up Short Against Campaign Financing

The A-F-L-C-I-O is considering its options after Secretary of State Kenneth Blackwell declared it didn't have enough valid signatures to start a referendum process aimed at overturning Ohio's new campaign finance law.

Blackwell decided Thursday that the labor organization was 57 signatures short of the 100 required to begin the referendum process for the November ballot.

The law passed late last year quadruples contribution limits to ten-thousand dollars, restricts county parties' campaign funds and bans third-party ads funded by unions and businesses 30 days before elections.

Carlo LoParo, a spokesman for Blackwell, said the A-F-L-C-I-O still can submit the 100 signatures. The union then would need 193-thousand-740 valid signatures of registered voters by March 30th to delay the new law and put the issue on the November eighth ballot.

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 03:12 PM | Link
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Dean: I'm very independent and I'm from outside of Washington. Washington has a peculiar culture that's different than everywhere else in the country. In Washington, it's very important to know your place and to have a place. People have worked hard to get to Washington, and once they are here, even second or third place is better than first place. I don't believe that in politics. I think there's only one place in politics that counts, and that's first place and I think it's time the Democrats took first place back.


BRAVO! BRAVO! BRAVA! Cheers - Clapping _ the crowd is going wild! Yeeeeeeeaaaaaagggggghhhhh Howard Dean!!!

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:13 PM | Link
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In case you were worried, here's a forecast of Dean's success in the upcoming DNC race. WHEW!! Aren't you relieved? Hey, it works for me...

http://www.astroworld.us/archives/000454.html#000454

For Howard Dean, I don't see how he could lose the 2.12.04 race. I also never could see him losing the Presidential race either, too bad the Democratic Party didn't nominate him, as he's just got power written all over him at this time. Here's what I see for Dean.

First, more lasting and transforming of his holding of power, transiting Pluto is moving over Dean's natal Mars in Sag., and then, 5 degrees later, will be transiting over Dean's natal Jupiter in Sag. This is a multi-year aspect just getting underway, first, through 2006, Pluto conjuncting Dean's Mars multiple times, and then, through 2008, Pluto conjuncting Dean's Jupiter multiple times. This transit is powerful for transforming Dean's position in the Democratic party, being a fighter and a leader that becomes the voice of the Democratic Party. While Pluto pulls away from the Democratic Party's progressed Sun, the later trails behind transiting Pluto as the Democratic Party's progressed Sun first conjuncts Dean's natal Mars and then Jupiter. Dean as the forerunner, here showing the path to transformation for the Democratic Party that follows his lead.

Second, more to the 2.12.05 point, Jupiter is Sta. Rx conjunct Dean's natal Venus. This transit duo is further highlighted by Dean's progressed Venus conjuncting his natal Jupiter near the DSC. Dean's got a natal quintile aspect between Jupiter and Venus, which is somewhat of a fame aspect. It's certainly beneficial.

Third, Dean's progressed Moon is in exact conjuntion with his natal Uranus, which is opposite that Natal Jupiter being conjuncted by his natal Venus; and the moon is ingressing into Cancer to crossover the ASC. I really like this, as it signals that Dean is going to get a new look by the people, and the "Dean Scream" is no longer going to be his tar baby.

To sum it up for Dean, in this period, he's likely to have an extended honeymoon with people of this nation, many of whom will love his shockingingly straightforward and powerful demeanor. I suppose there are some negative aspects in his chart, but I get the sense that the aspects I mentioned above are so powerful that Howard gets the DNC Chair if that's what he desires.

Posted by: cMia at January 23, 2005 03:13 PM | Link
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my one beef with progressives is that they tend to be very thin-skinned/insecure
Posted by Mainefem at January 23, 2005 01:59 PM
--------------
I'm inclined to agree, and I wonder why. Do you know?
Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 02:10 PM

--------------
That is because they�ve not �raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.�

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 03:21 PM | Link
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The media is still trying in every way possible to tear Dean down. He has learned so many valuable lessons since his presidential campaign. First of all he doesn't take the bait and he answers in a cool calm rational voice and gives honest answers as always. His TV demeanor is so much more sophisticated and it is obvious that he is in control and can lob back anything they throw at him. He is and always was anything BUT the "madman" that they media itself created our of mirrors and shadows.

Howard Dean is the most rational, most intelligent and most reasonable man out there. If only the Clinton faction doesn't get their way. I do wonder though, if Howard is aware of all the dirty tricks the Clintons are pulling against him. What Howard needs most is a rapid response team and reframing. He needs to get his image out there as the "sensible" candidate for the DNC. the one candidate actually capable of fulfilling his vision for the future of the Democratic Party.

Note: The answer to your question Maura, that you asked on the previous thread can be found on the Crushies site.

Posted by: Marcia - at January 23, 2005 03:22 PM | Link
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Well, first and last, let me say that it is wonderful to be able to participate in the national dialogue without having to watch TV.
Thank you BFA.

Posted by: MonicaSmith at January 23, 2005 03:23 PM | Link
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Posted by Danny at January 23, 2005 03:13 PM

Example of this statement.

In Washington State Maria Cantwell voted "No" against Barbara Boxer to challenge the Ohio elecltos.

In Washington Patty Murray didn't even show up to vote.

Lazy Democrats who are just fine with the status quo.

This is what I received from Senator Cantwells office on the nomination of Rice.

Thank you for contacting me regarding the nomination of Dr.
Condoleezza Rice as the Secretary of State. I appreciate hearing
from you on this issue.

As you know, on November 16, 2004, President Bush announced
that he nominated National Security Adviser Dr. Condoleezza Rice
to succeed Colin Powell as Secretary of State. If confirmed, Dr.
Rice would be the first African-American woman, and only the
second woman, to be chosen as the nation's top diplomat.

Born in Alabama in 1954, Condoleezza Rice entered college when
she was fifteen and earned a Ph.D. in international affairs from the
University of Denver when she was twenty-six. In 1981, Rice
became a political science professor at Stanford University where
she built a reputation as an expert on the Soviet Union. She later
served as a National Security Council staffer during the
administration of President George Bush when communism was
crumbling in Europe.

While I recognize the privilege of the President to select his
nominees for cabinet positions, I believe it is critical that we
conduct a comprehensive evaluation of each nominee's
qualifications. Please be assured that I am committed to making a
carefully considered and independent judgment of each nominee
based on information gathered in the confirmation hearings, Senate
floor debate, and a thorough review of each individual's record.

Senator Murray just won re-election she has not responed to the same letter I wrote and I assume because she has another 6 years she doesn't feel she needs to respond to her constituancy.

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:27 PM | Link
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Ok, a few more things about the forum. Rev. Al Sharpton and California Lt. Gov. Cruz Bustamante were there. At the beginning of the event I had some Linden Larouche supporters sitting in front of me. My family and I were afraid they were going start yelling and interrupt everything, like they always do. But sat they quietly and eventually left about halfway through the forum.

Oh and I was very impressed with Rep. Roemer. During his closing statement he addressed his position on abortion. He said how his mother is pro-choice and how he hears from her every day. He also said if he became chair he would support the party's position on abortion and wouldn't do anything to try and change it.

Posted by: Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 03:31 PM | Link
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I feel sad that Johnny Carson died. His show was wonderful and Leno can't even begin to fill his shoes.
______________
"John Negroponte was on a lot of talk shows this morning because there's big money trouble in Iraq - $300 in US dollars is missing from Iraqi banks and Negroponte says it isn't military dollars. Which means it is reconstruction money from private corporations."

Last year it was reported that Allawi and his family owned 90% of Iraq's bank. Or was it Negroponte? One of those two I think. When I have time, I'll research it. I know it was someone with close ties to BushCo -someone who wanted lots of control in the new Iraq.
__________________

Posted by: seashell at January 23, 2005 03:32 PM | Link
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if he became chair be would put 2 grass roots organizers in every state and territory,

Posted by Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 03:02 PM

This is the first I've heard of this!

So, would these people be paid by and report directly to the DNC?

2 Grassroots Organizers in VT, committed solely to organizing the grassroots, would be a HUGE help here!...and I would like to apply for the position...

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 03:36 PM | Link
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Posted by seashell at January 23, 2005 03:32 PM

So will the Democrats vote to throw more money at a problem money can't fix in Iraq? Or as well vote with the regressive neo-cons and make thieving from Social Security okay as they make the Bush top 1% tax cuts permenant?

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:38 PM | Link
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Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 03:36 PM


Alderwoman or selectwoman first - Then DNC organizer in Vermont.

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM | Link
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I believe that progressives are more accepting of others viewpoints than conservatives.

If a progressive says something bad about a conservative, they say "Well, you're just a commie pinko sympathizer".

If a conservative says something about a progressive, the response is more likely to be, "Hmn, you may have a point there..."

We progressive rationals need to be more selective about the viewpoints we consider. If somebody says I should burn in hell, or that I'm not the chosen one, or whatever, then I shouldn't give much else of what they say credence.

The conservatives can get away with labeling NPR as "liberal" because it considers all sides of an issue, while their Fox is conservative because it doesn't. Why is this a good thing again?

As an aside, I remember a quote from Alexander Haig right before the Iraq invasion. He said, "We need less talking, and more unity."

This was the most bizarre thing I've ever heard a conservative say. What are you going to unify around, unless you've talked out scenarios, ideas, values, etc.

To contribute to framing the opposition, I say

Conservative: Rigid, think they know everything, and therefore learn nothing.

Progressive: Flexible, don't think they know everyting, and therefore are constantly learning.

Posted by: Orion in Santa Cruz at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM | Link
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In concert with some of the discussion on the previous thread, the following might be of some interest:

My name is Michael Murray and I am a resident of Cape Neddick, Maine. A peace activist and Special Ed. Staff at Dover High School, I hope to travel to Cuba in April with a Witness For Peace delegation. The focus of the delegation is to attend the 4th International Meeting of Struggle Against the FTAA,"Free Trade Area of the Americas." The Cuban-hosted FTAA gathering will bring delegates together with over 1,000 leaders from throughout the hemisphere. >From Ecuadoran indigenous leaders, Bolivian campesinos, and Mexican academics to Nicaraguan unionists and Venezuelan students, delegates will hear from a wide variety of activists, all working toward a common goal; Stop the FTAA and build a different world.

(Free Trade means U.S. corporations can build factories on land used by Indigenous people for thousands of years. Turning these people into factory workers because their land was taken away and they no longer can continue to sustain a living within their culture. The governments of these poor nations are bullied by the U.S. to accept the FTAA or suffer from U.S. sanctions. The U.S. workers lose their jobs, the foreign workers lose their land and the corporations get very wealthy.)

The 4th Hemispheric Meeting of the Struggle Against the FTAA is a 3-day event full of workshops, panels, and speakers on issues like:debt and militarization, environment, culture and identity, agriculture and food security, migrant workers and the media.

We will finish the delegation by working together to plan what actions we can take on returning to the U.S. to address our nations policies towards Cuba and the FTAA. Develop tools to help build the movement to defeat this destructive policy.

The cost of this delegation is $ 2,000. With the help from people who care about these issues but cant attend the delegation my particapation can come true. With your help I will absorb all the knowledge and strategies possible to better work toward Peace and Justice.

Thank you for your thoughtful considerations.

Michael Murray

3 Libby Lane apt. # 2

Cape Neddick,Maine 03902

Posted by: MonicaSmith at January 23, 2005 03:41 PM | Link
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Alderwoman or selectwoman first - Then DNC organizer in Vermont.

Posted by Danny at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM

I just went and got my neighbors to sign my petition, which is due tomorrow. I'm not going to drag my kids out in blizzard conditions to go get more signatures today, but I only need 35 sigs which I can get in a 1/2 hour in front of the grocery store tomorrow. Election for that is March 1st. I don't think Dean will have the grassroots organizing system set up by then, so I only have to worry about 1 thing at a time (LMAO because I have at least 10 different major projects going on right now).

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 03:44 PM | Link
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(LMAO because I have at least 10 different major projects going on right now).

Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 03:44 PM

It doesn't surprise me a bit that you are very busy in so many area's in your life and a good Mother to boot.

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:49 PM | Link
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Conservative: Rigid, think they know everything, and therefore learn nothing.

Progressive: Flexible, don't think they know everyting, and therefore are constantly learning.


Posted by Orion in Santa Cruz at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM

Right on target Orion! I can speak for myself only as a progressive that I am always learning new things and at my age. When I think I'm right and I consider the differance between being right of being happy, then I try my damndest to be open minded to anothers point of view. What hurts me more than anything is when a conservative goes RIGID and won't even discuss, they just start calling names and linking democrats to all the names that the otherside has linked to Democrats in a "bad" context.

Posted by: Danny at January 23, 2005 03:55 PM | Link
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As always, the good doctor spoke the truth. First the DNC then the USA!

jjem, congratulations on running for local office. Your energy will definately help to usher in the new progressive era in the nation.

Congratuations to everyone else active in their schools, neighborhoods, communities, unions, and fellowship halls. I'll be in Richmond, Virginia tomorrow with fellow educators for the annual VEA Lobby Day.

Posted by: JobyTodd at January 23, 2005 03:59 PM | Link
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JobyTodd, good luck with VEA Lobby Day tomorrow! I'd love to hear how it goes. I'm still on the VEA legislative update list, though since I'm not teaching anymore, I'm no longer a member.

Tomorrow's going to be a huge day in the VA Senate, with the vote on Mary Margaret Whipple's "Birth Control Protection Act" coming down to the wire.

Are you on Democracy for Virginia's new Legislative Sentry list?

Clicky to join if not!

I know folks on the list would be interested in hearing about your experiences with VEA Lobby Day tomorrow.

Posted by: Maura*in*VA at January 23, 2005 04:03 PM | Link
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We took a few pics at the forum (though only one came out really well) here they are:

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/3785/mvc004s0yu.jpg

(Dean's on the far left)

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/6201/mvc005f6cr.jpg

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/6499/mvc006f7qg.jpg

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/9003/mvc007f6pz.jpg

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/3396/mvc008f4mj.jpg

Here's one of the back of Dean's (and some bald guy with ear rings) head.

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/1458/mvc009f3qs.jpg


and here's the only good pic we got...

http://img170.exs.cx/img170/5586/mvc010f5po.jpg

Posted by: Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 04:04 PM | Link
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Barbara*in*Seattle @ 3:10 P.M.
Yes, esp. Lennon's Imagine and Simon and Garfunkel's Bridge Over Troubled Waters, among many others. Maybe Dean can be our bridge. We surely need one.

Posted by: Trinity at January 23, 2005 04:04 PM | Link
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***FOR VIRGINIANS*** (info I've sent out to our VA lists...)

There's a full-scale fight brewing down in Richmond right now about protecting birth control in Virginia. Senator Mary Margaret Whipple's Birth Control Protection Act is up for a full floor vote in the Senate on Monday, and the
vote is expected to be very close.

The text of the bill is here:

http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?051+sum+SB456

It's a pretty basic concept - Senator Whipple's bill is saying contraception should not be governed by Virginia's restrictive abortion laws, and contraception is defined as any method that prevents pregnancy by preventing the union of sperm and egg or preventing implantation of a fertilized egg in the uterus. (The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists and other respected medical groups define conception as beginning at the point of implantation, not fertilization. Pretty basic stuff in the medical world.)

This would pass easily in any "reality-based" legislature, but it's stalled for years in VA, and this year there's a new twist. Senator Jeannemarie Devolites Davis (yep, the wife of our pal Republican Congressman Tom Davis) is one of the main opponents of the Birth Control Protection Act, and she started a debate on the bill this week based on the definition of "conception".

Did Devolites-Davis go to medical sources for her definition?

No. She went to dictionary.com.

I KID YOU NOT. She actually used dictionary.com to back up her argument. (Related article:
http://tinyurl.com/4k32s )

So Devolites-Davis has now introduced an amendment to Whipple's bill that would change Whipple's wording so that the bill no longer clarifies that
contraception prevents pregnancy through BOTH prevention of fertilization AND prevention of implantation.

Essentially, the only contraceptives that would be protected under the Devolites-Davis amendment would be barrier methods (condom, diaphragm) and
spermicides. If her amendment passes, the Birth Control Protection Act would be a sham, since some of the most widely used methods, particularly hormonal contraceptives, would not be protected.

There are many legislators in Richmond who are working to restrict access to contraceptives for Virginia women or blur the line between contraception and abortion in an effort to restrict both. Dick Black from Loudoun County called contraceptives "baby pesticides" in a Washington Times article last year. Mark Cole wants to give fertilized eggs constitutional rights (http://tinyurl.com/5fhh3). Robert Marshall has a bill that would make it a
felony to give birth control to a teen involved in statutory rape. Given the current makeup of the General Assembly, unfortunately, they're not on the political fringe. (Lunatic fringe, maybe -- but most Virginians don't even know this stuff is going on, and then we act shocked when it passes!)

If you believe Virginia women should have access to all safe methods of contraception, three actions are needed TODAY (because this goes up for a floor vote Monday):

1. Call and email your senator to urge him/her to reject the Devolites-Davis amendment to SB456 on Monday.

2. Call and email to urge your senator to vote in favor of SB456 on Monday. If
they're already signed on as a patron, thank them.

3. Spread the word -- write a letter to your local paper, send an email to your friends, post this on your blog or discussion board, etc.

You can use this form to get the contact information for both your Senator and
your Delegate:

http://conview.state.va.us/whosmy.nsf/main?openform

PLEASE be polite and respectful when writing or calling your Senators. Delegate Cosgrove earned sympathy points when we helped to kill his odious
fetal death reporting bill by claiming that he was the victim of hundreds of "abusive" and angry email attacks. There are a number of Republican Senators who we need to cross over to vote for this, and the worst thing that could happen would be to alienate someone on the fence by bombarding him/her with angry missives that make them feel attacked.

The vast majority of Virginians, Republican and Democratic, pro-choice and pro-life, support access to contraceptives. The vast majority of Virginians don't consider the pill to be a "baby pesticide". We just need to let all Senators know we want them to stand with the vast majority of Virginians, and that we'll be watching closely to see how they vote on Monday.

Whipple's bill has stalled twice before, and I think the primary reason it has not passed is that most ordinary Virginians have no idea that something as basic as access to contraceptives could be so at risk in our state. Please do
what you can to spread the word before Monday!

Posted by: Maura*in*VA at January 23, 2005 04:08 PM | Link
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http://img170.exs.cx/img170/5586/mvc010f5po.jpg

Posted by Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 04:04 PM

Is that Dean's bodyguard?

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:10 PM | Link
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*********************************************
DFACHAT.COM
*********************************************

Discuss Governor Dean's interview on ABC's This Week, today�s news and all things DFA in real-time @ DFAchat.com

http:\\www.dfachat.com

(Click)

*********************************************
DFACHAT.COM
*********************************************


Posted by: Dardango at January 23, 2005 04:13 PM | Link
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Stephanopoulos has some nerve acting as if everyone is asking Dean whether it's safe to have a madman running the Party. As we've noted before, a madman is someone who keeps doing the same thing over and over expecting different results. Like the Undemocratic Wing of the Democratic Party.

I do recall when the Sunday morning shows had genuine journalists asking the questions, but now we are left with remnants of the Clinton machine offering loaded questions a real journalist wouldn't get anywhere near. Grow up Stephanoupolis!

Posted by: barb in albq at January 23, 2005 04:19 PM | Link
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The way I see it, progressive-minded folks are, as a rule, open to different viewpoints. True progressives are looking to work on things getting better through finding solutions and making things better.

I do not see, as some have suggested, that "liberal" and "progressive" are interchangeable, but I agree that they are often/usually on the same side. Unfortunately the words "liberal" and "conservative" have come to make people think of the extremes of the political spectrum, "radical" and "reactionary", respectively. A radical liberal often seeks change for change's sake. A progrssive liberal wants change where it makes sense.

What I like about "progressive" is that it doesn't really fit on the linear political spectrum (radical - liberal - moderate - conservative - reactionary).

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:20 PM | Link
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Posted by Danny at January 23, 2005 03:27 PM

Danny, I got the exact same letter from Maria. I didn't write to Patty. I didn't know, until now, that she didn't bother to show up.

I only have two words left for the two of them. I don't think I need to repeat them here.

However, that being said. We are the grassroots, we are legion and we are MAD.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:25 PM | Link
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Why do they always refer to Dean as a "madman"? That's ludicrous! One feisty speech...I really think they are trying to paint him as "crazy" because he has such loyal supporters. They just cannot wrap their brains around the concept that normal, sane people ADORE him because of his conviction and his record. No...it must be because he's a warlock that has put a spell on all of us. Ridiculous!

Dean has been holding his own. Great interview!

Change is in the air.

Shan

Posted by: shan at January 23, 2005 04:26 PM | Link
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(radical - liberal - moderate - conservative - reactionary).
I thought it was opposite conservative.
end

Posted by: voter918 at January 23, 2005 04:27 PM | Link
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would support the party's position on abortion and wouldn't do anything to try and change it.
~~~~
Ah, yes. Sweet Brandon, you are young yet andhave a lot to learn about politicians. You will probably never, in your life, meet another honest politician like Howard Dean.

Roemer will say anything he can to get elected. But the bottom line is, he will be true to HIMSELF before he is true to the party. You can rest assured that he will, indeed, do all he can to get rid of Roe v Wade. He will be underhanded and sneaky about it, but he WILL do it. Trust your Dad and Howard Dean before you ever trust Roemer.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:30 PM | Link
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Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:20 PM

Shouldn't it be the opposite of reactionary?

progressive - liberal - moderate - conservative - reactionary

or

liberal - progressive - moderate - reactionary - conservative

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link
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voter918 at January 23, 2005 04:27 PM:

click my name to see a discussion of the political spectrum - it goes much further than the linear version though -

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/6/14/45425/6208

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link
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I posted the article about Blackwell and the AFLCIO as a Kos diary. If you're a member, I hope you will recommend it. If more people see the article, hopefully someone better versed in this sort of thing (re: the petition which didn't have 100 valid signatures according to Blackwell) will see it. Click.

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 04:32 PM | Link
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Posted by shan at January 23, 2005 04:26 PM

What the corporate media means by "madman" is a man who is out of control, that is, out of THEIR control. Go back about 60 years to MR. SMITH GOES TO WASHINGTON. Like the Jimmy Stewart character, they will try to defeat him through lies, ridicule, and character assasination. And as it was with Mr. Smith, truth and honesty will eventually win...but not without a lot of tears along the way.

Posted by: donna*in*evanston at January 23, 2005 04:33 PM | Link
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good afternoon bloggers!!!
I didn't get to see Howard on the GS show so I enjoyed reading the transcript. I hope and pray he gets this job. He could really turn the party around. If he doesn't get it, alot of people INCLUDING ME will be ready to stop calling themselves Democrats. I'm feeling kind of down this weekend. The news is just ALL BAD. The war is a huge mess. Bush is never held acountable for his actions. NEVER. It's freezing cold here this weekend and I know I couldn't make it in Canada, although the thought still crosses my mind from time to time.I'm glad that people like Howard Dean and Barbara Boxer aren't afraid to speak up for us. I would like to to do something nice for Senator Boxer. She probably gets 10,000 emails a day. I am so grateful to her. I can't wait to see her tear Condi apart. Is that Tuesday? I might check back here later. Thanks for all you do!!! As long as we all don't feel down at the same time- we'll be ok. We have to keep fighting!!
CATCH YA LATER!!

Posted by: Sadie at January 23, 2005 04:34 PM | Link
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That is because they�ve not �raised themselves to the level of comprehending theoretically the historical movement as a whole.�
Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 03:21 PM

Hey, turn. I'm in and out, but am interested in your thoughts. I'm not sure who/what you are quoting here, but please explain further.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 04:34 PM | Link
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radical - progressive - moderate - conservative- reactionary

Posted by: voter918 at January 23, 2005 04:35 PM | Link
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Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 03:36 PM

I vote for jjem! and mataliandy as our DFA grassroots leaders in Vermont!

Excellent interview, Howard!! You handled every question beautifully. And George S. can be a real bear sometimes. But you did it well!

I sure hope that jjem! and mataliandy can be knighted into service!

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 04:35 PM | Link
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Maybe Dean can be our bridge. We surely need one.
~~~~~
He is.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:36 PM | Link
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"What the corporate media means by "madman" is a man who is out of control, that is, out of THEIR control."

Bingo! donna*in*evanston

You hit the nail right on the head.

Those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who couldn't hear the music.

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:37 PM | Link
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Conservative: Rigid, think they know everything, and therefore learn nothing.

Progressive: Flexible, don't think they know everyting, and therefore are constantly learning.


Posted by Orion in Santa Cruz at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM
<<

This would of course explain why there are some in the Democratic party (most on the far left) who are unwilling to reconsider things like unlimited abortion rights, knee jerk anti war, blame America first, or a few other of the sacred cows.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 04:38 PM | Link
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"Dick Black from Loudoun County called contraceptives "baby pesticides" in a Washington Times article last year. Mark Cole wants to give fertilized eggs constitutional rights."

Someone should put Black's and Cole's ding-dongs into irreperable repair. With such disregard for womens' rights, they don't deserve to enjoy sex with anyone who has ovaries.

What is it with these idiots who want to deny us rights? Are they jealous cuz they can't conceive?
Are they frightened of our power over them?

If I were married to either of these two troglodytes (sp), I would cut them off. Sexually, that is. :-)

And why do otherwise seemingly normal women stay with people like Bush/Cheney/etc etc? We women have to ask ourselves why women do that? If a##holes are running the world, why are their wives with them? And if boys grow up under moms' wings and turn out like Bush, don't women bear some of the responsibility for creating these nincompoops?

Merriment, yes, we need it. One of Carson's quips
Q How did you make that coin disappear?
Carson's answer: "Marry it!"

Posted by: seashell at January 23, 2005 04:39 PM | Link
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I am sick & tired of Robert's (Rocket) xenophobic rantings disguised as rational thoughts. He consistently insults Arabs and makes slurs about them. He tries to cover his hate messages under a thin veneer of "reason", which is also very patronizing to other responders. His stories about his pets are a try to make him more human. I don't buy it. Robert, why don't you go peddle your wares at some Republican site.

Posted by Munir In Oregon at January 23, 2005 02:26 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The only way he can stroke his low self-esteemed ego is by his know-it-all attitude... I'm right, you're wrong.

Ever notice he never posts anything initially. His posts are always know-it-all responses from someone else's posts.

As far as covering his messages...

perhaps a Jekyll & Hyde personality flaw...


click...

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 04:40 PM | Link
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Saw Howard on Stephy:

Pretty good performance on his part. Steph asked some fairly straightforward questions which more then anything I think gave Howard a chance to attack his critics.

The most helpful one was the "madman" statement. Howard not only was able to address it to probably all the members of the DNC on a one shot basis, since doubtless they were watching but also by his answer isolate the guy who wrote it.

It was a fair question by STephi and Howard knocked it out of the park. I thought Howard looked rested.

Watched the Biden/Hagel back and forth. That was very good. Biden is a smart guy and so is Hagel. Hagel is also probably running for POTUS...

He was starting to put some distance between him and the administration.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 04:41 PM | Link
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barb in albq @4:19 P.M.
Yes, if George Stephanopoulos is really looking for emotional problems, I suggest he look into the Clinton corner of the Dem. Party or into the White House. Didn't someone write a George Bush on the couch book? This guy was really messed up for years, and probably still is, especially with all those military outfits he keeps donning. I cannot think of any other president who felt compelled to dress up in this manner. It is downright embarassing. Can you imagine what the rest of the world thinks when they see Bush in one of these costumes? I hope he knows that the Constitution clearly identifies the commander in chief as a civilian chosen by the people.

Posted by: Trinity at January 23, 2005 04:42 PM | Link
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jjem, I think you are probably right in equating "reactionary" with "regressive" in general. I think, however, that true progressivism means ditching the concept of falling in one spot on the linear political spectrum and, instead, looking at what really works - making changes where needed and continuing whatever is already in place getting things done well.

Some might want to think that my definition of progressive is the same as centrist, picking and choosing what they like from the left and the right. I'm suggesting, however, that being a real progressive means putting in much more work than that, though. Really looking at isssues and seeing what is really going to make things work for society as a whole.

What I find so freaking funny is that, as I see it, if the government would stop giving a crap about things like homosexuality and leaving medical decisions between doctor's and their patients then the government could focus on keeping society going. The neo-cons on the right claim they want less government, yet they want to create new laws and amendments to deal with stuff that the government REALLY has no business dealing in.

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM | Link
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Posted by Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 04:40 PM<<

I"ll make a special effort of pointing out something initially to you...Well I did a review of Howard's effort on Stephie...just a few messages up top.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM | Link
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I believe that progressives are more accepting of others viewpoints than conservatives.
Posted by Orion in Santa Cruz at January 23, 2005 03:40 PM

To me, the use of labels to define a group of people based on their viewpoints mitigates against the acceptance of people with other viewpoints.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM | Link
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Posted by Sadie at January 23, 2005 04:34 PM

Hi Sadie! ♥
=HUG!=

Thanks for staying in it with us!

I stopped being a Democrat a year ago, and am waiting to see if they do the honourable thing, so I'll know whether I can maybe be one again!

As for Canada...the maritime province isn't so bad. PEI and Nova Scotia offer some good options.
If you ever get there be sure to look at the adorable little town of Shelburne, Nova Scotia, south-ish on the Atlantic side.
Example: It's 0 degrees here in NW Vermont right now, while it's 14 degrees in Charlottetown, PEI and Halifax, Nova Scotia.

But, do stay here with us if you can
and help us take our country back
so we can take our country forward.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 04:44 PM | Link
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Barbara, you're right. He is. Gov. Dean has had a profound effect on many people, including me. Definitely our bridge over those troubled waters.

Posted by: Trinity at January 23, 2005 04:46 PM | Link
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I vote for jjem! and mataliandy as our DFA grassroots leaders in Vermont!

Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 04:35 PM

I think we have that covered with DFV. Basically just took a willingness to volunteer and commit to doing it.

The quote above from Howard said that we would have 2 Grassroots Organizers from the DNC (if he got the Chair position)...a completely different thing...I hope...

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:50 PM | Link
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Posted by Munir In Oregon at January 23, 2005 02:26 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
perhaps a Jekyll & Hyde personality flaw...
~~~

LOL. I just reaized that he was here and decided that it was time for me to leave and get some work done. I am SO glad that I'm not the only one with a very low opinion of him.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:50 PM | Link
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It is my opinion that Dean should continue to remind everyone that he is a DOCTOR, for crying out loud; I think that this would go a long way to counteract the "madman" meme. After all, Bill F---ing Frist never misses an opportunity to bring up his medical background (I myself am a physician, so I am particularly sensitive to these things). Does anyone else agree with me?

Posted by: TropicalDepression at January 23, 2005 04:51 PM | Link
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Posted by Munir In Oregon at January 23, 2005 02:26 AM<,

I challenge you to post where I have insulted ARabs on this blog.

They dont like dogs or keep them as pets in a general fashion. Thats why when I read of "eyewitness accounts" of lots of wild dogs roaming Iraqi cities I sort of raise an arched eye.

BTW you would probably love the life most Mid East Arab women live. Since you just love their culture. They are very "progressive" in terms of womens rights; particularly in Saudi Arabia.

Live long and prosper.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 04:52 PM | Link
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�Heeeeere�s Johnny!� ...


...so sad :(

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 04:52 PM | Link
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Robert

Re: Madman

I've always wondered how Dean should have handled of the fallout to his screaming rant the night of the Iowa caucuses. What would have been the best way to handle it to improve his chances for later primary victories?

Posted by: Holdek at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM | Link
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Stephy had "good questions"? I think smarmy would be more in line with most of his questions. Trying to make it look like the majority of people were either against Dean, or if they were with him, were quite mad themselves.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM

What's wrong with not accepting other's viewpoints? I do not accept the anti-gay, anti-choice views of Regressive Conservatives...nothing wrong with that IMHO.

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:55 PM | Link
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Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:50 PM

Terminology slip.

I did indeed intend to support you and mataliandy for the NEW Grassroots Organisers position, not the former/present "grassroots leaders" position.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 04:57 PM | Link
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Posted by Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 04:52 PM

He lived in such a secluded way after retiring that I still think of him as much younger th he actually was.

Apparently the death was from an expected cause, since the news says he was surrounded by family and friends at the end. I know he had emphysema. That's a terrible killer, although he may have died of something else.

On another topic, just to add my "vote":

GO EAGLES! (from a sympathetic Bills fan)

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 04:58 PM | Link
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I do not accept the anti-gay, anti-choice views of Regressive Conservatives...nothing wrong with that IMHO.

Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:55 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Agree with you there, Jessica. :)

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 04:59 PM | Link
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Posted by Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM

George tried to frame the whole conversation as if Dean were obviously seen as a freak madman.

However!
Howard was able to deframe and reframe all the way through. He's exceptionally good at that!

Howard speaks what we know in our hearts to be true, and half the time he speaks it before we can articulate it!

I am almost certain he will be chosen as DNC Chair.
The "almost" is just my inability to trust the Dems to do the right thing at the last minute.
We'll see!
I'm so gld the vote is on a Saturday!!
Almost everything that has happened in the past has taken place on a Tuesday while I'm at work! Ha!

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:00 PM | Link
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Posted by TropicalDepression at January 23, 2005 04:51 PM

I agree with you. These days Doctors garner more respect than most any other occupation, and Dr. Howard Dean should use it for all it is worth.

It is yet another reason he was the best Democratic candidate for President...

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 05:00 PM | Link
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gld = glad

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:01 PM | Link
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Posted by volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 04:58 PM


Yes, they now are saying it was emphysema.


Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:01 PM | Link
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The neo-cons on the right claim they want less government, yet they want to create new laws and amendments to deal with stuff that the government REALLY has no business dealing in.

Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM

Every chance I can, I remind people that Repubs don't want smaller Government. They don't want to get rid of the military, or the treasury, or any other aspect of the government. What they want to do is cut Social Progams that help ordinary Americans.

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 05:01 PM | Link
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As for the madman thing, it's one of the reasons I'm cautious about Dean for DNC chair. I think he'd probably make a good chair (vast improvement over the current and preferable to many of his opponents), but I do hope he can keep the madman thing under control and not feed the right wing media machine. Most conservatives are hoping for Dean to be DNC chair as well, for that very reason.

Posted by: Holdek at January 23, 2005 05:02 PM | Link
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Posted by jjem! at January 23, 2005 04:55 PM

I was responding to a post that said progressives were more accepting of other people's viewpoints than conservatives were. I didn't venture an opinion on the whole idear myself. But, now that you ask...I agree that there is nothing wrong with rejecting certain viewpoints. Unfortunately, where we go from there often is to reject who do not share our own viewpoints, which is very different. And when we start creating/labeling groups of people based on their viewpoints, that's where we are usually headed.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:04 PM | Link
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my one beef with progressives is that they tend to be very thin-skinned/insecure
Posted by Mainefem at January 23, 2005 01:59 PM
---------------
But Howard has the hide of a rhinocerous. Patience is the greatest virtue.

Posted by: chiTeacher at January 23, 2005 05:04 PM | Link
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Speaking of framing...

Are you a member of the Nurturant Parent Society? Or the Deadbeat Dad Society?

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 05:05 PM | Link
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As Johnny would say: "I did not know this"!


Carson helped Clinton turn it around
1988 news story remembers sax performance...


clicky...

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:06 PM | Link
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I am sorry to hear about Johnny Carson. Classy guy, classy show.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:06 PM | Link
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TropicalDepression. . . I certainly agree. Dean has an excellent resume and should bring it up as often as he possibly can. If he doesn't, then we should do so for him. I have responded numerous times to the madman attacks used to distract people from Dean's very rational and appealling message and to deprive us of the chance to elect a truly great American, at last. We need to speak up.

Posted by: Trinity at January 23, 2005 05:07 PM | Link
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Posted by chiTeacher at January 23, 2005 05:04 PM

I'm pretty sure Mainefem wasn't talking about Howard.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:08 PM | Link
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george steph is a light weight. these people get their questions fed to them. notice how he touched the computer screen and everything was there for him to read.
Asking howard about what a "dnc" member said about a "madman", what dnc memeber. this is like fox asking what "some people say". This question was a set up to throw howard off and make him look less than he is. Howard came back very well and took over the interview. It made steff look stupid himself. If you can't tell us who asked the question, don't ask it.
I think we know what we are up against folks, the entire idiotic and umpatiotic media.

Posted by: lindab at January 23, 2005 05:09 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

jjem! at January 23, 2005 05:01 PM

"Repubs don't want smaller Government. They don't want to get rid of the military... What they want to do is cut Social Progams that help ordinary Americans."

Exactly. Isn't it convenient that the destruction of the middle class means that more and more people will feel as if the only choice they have is to join the "all volunteer" military?

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:09 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 04:34 PM
------------------------
If you believe in God, that�s easy � you just pray, hope and wait.
If you don�t, you are trying to find answers by yourself, on questions that you deeply care about, like social justice, fairness, etc. Then after some search you may came to the idea that since humans are extension of nature (do you believe in that?), then there are might (should?) be some laws (science!) of nature that reflects social/economical side of human life. When these laws are found you read it, and learn it, and try to understand it. If it is a �true science� then it must be able not only to explain past but also to predict future, if not in details but at least conceptually. Do you agree with my reasoning?

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 05:09 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I've always wondered how Dean should have handled of the fallout to his screaming rant the night of the Iowa caucuses. What would have been the best way to handle it to improve his chances for later primary victories?
Posted by Holdek at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM

I thought he handled it exceptionally well!

He went on Letterman and made fun of it (humility)
and he and Judy allowed the ABC interview with Diane Sawyer ~ and finally the REAL in-context tape got shown (truth and wisdom).

If any one person disarmed the media's stupid reaction to the Scream it was Judy Steinberg Dean.

She was entirely authentically herself in the face of a rough interview with cameras on her. Sawyer was relentless in asking really inappropriate questions. It was such a shining moment for truth when Judy told Diane Sawyer that she doesn't watch TV. that she just doesn't think about television. Sawyer was utterly floored by Judy. She had no schema for dealing with someone so completely honest and uncorrupted. And, to Sawyer's credit, I think it brought out something good in her in the long run. At least she showed the tape of the Scream revealing AT LAST how it really sounded in that room.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:10 PM | Link
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Oh, and my sister also wrote letters to media moguls and even got answers. Letters are the most effective way to protest, but do so in a dignified manner.

Posted by: Trinity at January 23, 2005 05:10 PM | Link
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Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:43 PM

I don't think you have that quite right. They don't want less government; they want it to be smaller--ie. fewer people involved.
Democracy, if it is enjoyed by a large number of people is, by definition, a large government because lots of people take part.
As the shrub said, government would be more efficient, if he could be a dictator.
Grover Norquist's goal is a government that he could drown in a bath-tub--i.e. do away with government entirely.
Your idea of representation is that you select people to do what you want. Their idea of representation is a small number of people making decisions for you, including telling you what to do.
There are undoubtedly a lot of people who would like government to be run by people who know what ought to be done and do it, without having to be told and without putting their nose into everybody's private business. Perhaps these are the people who need to be convinced that democrats know what they are doing. Democrats recently have not been particularly good at making that case.
Kerry, for example, didn't. Why he didn't is beyond me. Probably followed the advice of his campaign managers--a class of people I am about ready to deep six.

Posted by: MonicaSmith at January 23, 2005 05:10 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

my one beef with progressives is that they tend to be very thin-skinned/insecure
Posted by Mainefem at January 23, 2005 01:59 PM
---------------
But Howard has the hide of a rhinocerous. Patience is the greatest virtue.

Posted by chiTeacher at January 23, 2005 05:04 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Here's more of that same post of Mainefem's:

We need to work both inside *and* outside the party--everyone should know how their local and state demographics work by now; so it's a matter of infrastructure, organizing resources effectively, and by running progressives against mainstream DNC/DLC candidates in the 2006 primaries (which is where the ongoing bloodbaths will continue).

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:14 PM | Link
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Regressives see the military as the only social program they will ever be willing to throw good money after bad in order to maintain in perpetuity.

Regressives, along with the moneyed elite, which includes some wealthy Democrats, see nothing wrong with cutting all of society's safety nets and allowing the military to be our lone 'safety net'.

We need to start the Working Poor Party.

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 05:17 PM | Link
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If you believe in God, that’s easy – you just pray, hope and wait.
If you don’t, you are trying to find answers by yourself, on questions that you deeply care about, like social justice, fairness, etc. Then after some search you may came to the idea that since humans are extension of nature (do you believe in that?), then there are might (should?) be some laws (science!) of nature that reflects social/economical side of human life. When these laws are found you read it, and learn it, and try to understand it. If it is a “true science” then it must be able not only to explain past but also to predict future, if not in details but at least conceptually. Do you agree with my reasoning?

Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 05:09 PM

Egad! What concept of god are you assuming in your first sentence?! I believe in God, but I sure don't just hang around waiting for some perfect Plan which is never quite explained to us to unfold, so I can get on board. Bleah! That is not the God I know. The God I am familiar with co-creates with us, and may hope good thing sfor us, but doesn't know how things are going to go until we make our choices. Otherwise, where is the "free will" in what transpires? So I need to be engaged, aware, asking questions, looking for idears and answers and actively taking part. If I don't make good choices, I blow God's best hopes for me. In my view, God is a good contingency planner, but that doesn't mean I can just coast!
Prayer is, in my view, feathers on a powerful wing. A wing may have power on its own, but cannot really fly without the feathers for lift. The feathers are wonderful, but unless they are brought together in a useful way, they are just fluff.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:18 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:18 PM
------------------
Well, listener, probably with your concept of God I may agree and even kind of like it.

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 05:21 PM | Link
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Prayer is, in my view, feathers on a powerful wing. A wing may have power on its own, but cannot really fly without the feathers for lift. The feathers are wonderful, but unless they are brought together in a useful way, they are just fluff.

Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:18 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


How beautiful, listener ♥

It gives me a very peaceful serene feeling ♥


Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:23 PM | Link
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MonicaSmith at January 23, 2005 05:10 PM writes:

"I don't think you have that quite right. They don't want less government; they want it to be smaller--ie. fewer people involved."

Good point. They do "claim" to want less government, but you have nailed it on he head.

"Your idea of representation is that you select people to do what you want. Their idea of representation is a small number of people making decisions for you, including telling you what to do."

Actually, -my- idea of representation is that I select people who I trust to do what is best for the city, the county, the state, the district, and/or the country. But, yes, you are right, I think they should listen to their constituents and make good, informed, decisions that serve the greater good.

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:24 PM | Link
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Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 05:21 PM

:)

All it is a balance of all the concepts about God out there spinning. One extreme is that god set the universe in motion and now hangs back and watches to see how we work things out. The other extreme is that god is all-powerful and we just have to somehow figure out god's plan so we can fall in line with it. I wouldn't want to know either of those gods! Ah, but a God who cares about us enough to be working right along with us and esteems us enough to have us working right along too, is a God worth taking a second look at.

Gee, sounds a lot like how DFA works, too, doesn't it? Small wonder we resonate with it. It makes common sense! It is intellectually and spiritually sound. It makes it possible to care for creation while also progressing forward. What a concept.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:27 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:27 PM

♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

Posted by: Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM | Link
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Now Playing: 'Anybody But Dean, Part 2'
While the GOP danced, the Dems once again found themselves looking for a leader who's not from Vermont.

Fear and loathing: Will Dean be stopped?
By Howard Fineman

Posted by: John*in*Maine at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:10 PM

Possibly, but maybe a more aggressive tactic was needed?

Posted by: Holdek at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Actually, -my- idea of representation is that I select people who I trust to do what is best for the city, the county, the state, the district, and/or the country. But, yes, you are right, I think they should listen to their constituents and make good, informed, decisions that serve the greater good.
Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:24 PM
----------------------------
How about ALSO to "select people who I trust to do what is best" for your plant, factory, company, department, office, etc�.

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 05:32 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

If you believe in God, that�s easy � you just pray, hope and wait.
If you don�t, you are trying to find answers by yourself
Do you agree with my reasoning?
Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 05:09 PM

Except maybe for thinking that many people who believe in God als try to find answers in the same way, yes, I'm with you so far.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:35 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

turn at January 23, 2005 05:32 PM

sounds good to me

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:35 PM | Link
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Oh...I see listener already straightened you out on that part. :-)

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:36 PM | Link
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About Roemer, I read somewhere that, in addition to the abortion controversy, that AIPAC is against him for votes on Israel. I believe that alone would seal his fate....no comment.


Posted by Elly in MD at January 23, 2005 01:56 PM


Seems like many on the site like Elly in MD, *! in NC and Dru...Ohio all want to rid the Democratic party of "them". Is that a good idea?

Posted by: John*in*Maine at January 23, 2005 05:36 PM | Link
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Posted by Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:23 PM

I came by this understanding the hard way,
when a dear little 7 year old friend was dying of a rare form of brain cancer.
The docs tried everything, family and friends were loving and prayerful, but the dear little fellow died.
So I got wondering anew what prayer really is.
A wise clergy woman suggested, "Prayer opens the possible in the freedom of God's creation."
Yeah, we feather the wing of God's hope. But even God's best hope doesn't fly, even when well feathered, because of the free will that exists in creation.
We don't yet know enough about why cells mutate (making progress all the time though, and that's holy work!). My biologist son says that cells mutate all the time, and that's how we get evolution. It's a good (and hopeful) point! But sometimes they mutate negatively, and we don't understand enough about why. We are pretty sure that overloading our environment with chemicals can engender cancer. So, maybe, just maybe, if we had been taking better care of creation we wouldn't have had to deal with cancer, at least not on the scale we're seeing it. This is just one example of what might be going on. But to me it underscores that science and faith are NOT at odds, even though science and religion have been at times.
So, getting back to where I began. That dear 7 year old gave me the need to know more about prayer, especially when I felt that my best prayers weren't making it possible for him to live. Of course, we don't know how hard it would have been for him without our prayers and tending. But I will say this: He was utterly peaceful through the whole ordeal, from start to finish. He had wisdom far beyond his years. And that still speaks to me.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:37 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:35 PM

Thanks, Free! ♥ LOL

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:39 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

sounds good to me
Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:35 PM
----------------
But...
To do that, it MUST be YOUR (!) OWN (!) �...plant, factory, company, department, office, etc...�.
Is it?

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 05:40 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Holdek at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM

Think about it, though. If Howard had come out aggressively, they would have had fodder for the grist mill notion that he was a lunatic.

This other way, by his calm and humour, they looked like idiots in the long run.

Howard took the high road all last year,
and THAT is why the Scream dog doesn't bark anymore.

"The truth will set you free."

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:41 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Possibly, but maybe a more aggressive tactic was needed?
Posted by Holdek at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM

Not really. The response was good, but the campaign was *way* too slow in responding. Shoulda been out there the next morning, if not that same night.

Also, I've concluded the campaign did not shoot it's own footage of these things. *BIG* mistake, and very embarrassing to Trippi et al, IMO. They should have had good footage of the event at hand and put it out *immediately*, with a side-by-side comparison to what the media was running.

That would have shut the whole thing down real quick. Oddly, the media is very concerned about its credibility. I know that seems funny, but this is their Achilles heel. They do *not* like to be caught dead to rights misrepresenting anything.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:43 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Hey CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer site is asking whether Bush's inaugural speech is making you more or less hopeful or makes no difference. Click my name and vote!

Posted by: Look to the Future at January 23, 2005 05:45 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 05:31 PM

Page!!! ♥ ♥ ♥

See my post at 5:37pm too...for the rest of the story.
No matter where on the spectrum we stand, we are inextricably connected when we are on the Dean spectrum!

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:46 PM | Link
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Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 05:32 PM

I trust people only when I'm the only one who will bear the consequence, should my trust be misplaced. I feel it would be irresponsible of me to rely on trust when others would bear the consequences. I believe strongly in ongoing verification.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:46 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

turn at January 23, 2005 05:40 PM

We are discussing the government and, if this country's government is really one "of the people, by the people, and for the people" then it would work as I suggested with representatives selected by the people doing what needs to be done for the people.

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:47 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:43 PM

I agree that sooner would have helped.

I think the whole staff was reeling from Iowa and caught at a bad time.

Sigh.

But, again, Howard turned it around, given time, because he had done nothing wrong.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 05:50 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Except maybe for thinking that many people who believe in God als try to find answers in the same way, yes, I'm with you so far.
Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:35 PM
------------------
Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:27 PM
------------------
I�ve brought concept of God to the contrary of concept of no-God just to underline since, I would expect that latter will push you more persistently in a search for purely �scientific� answers.
But I might be mistaken on that.
The rest will follow.

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 05:50 PM | Link
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Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 05:47 PM

The only way this will happen is if "the people" stop trusting and start verifying. The solution is not to find the "right" people to put in office. The solution is for citizens to stay so on top of their elected officials and hold their feet to the fire, so that it will hardly matter who is in office, they will *have* to represent the will of the people.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:51 PM | Link
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Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 05:50 PM

OK. Now how do we get from there to progressives being thin-skinned?

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:53 PM | Link
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Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:46 PM

I just read your 5:37 pm post, and it's wonderful. Thank you for that story. I'm having a sort of lame, blah, kind of sad day, so I needed that. You always express things so well.

Posted by: Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 05:55 PM | Link
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Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:37 PM

Been through a lot of those terrible cancer deaths as I'm sure, all of us have...

...especially hate to see kids suffer. Thank goodness for St. Judes (Danny Thomas & now Marlo).

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 05:58 PM | Link
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I think the whole staff was reeling from Iowa and caught at a bad time.
Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 05:50 PM

True, but...that is the measure of a good campaign, because that's exactly when you need to be most ready to respond to something like this. Probably when it is most likely to happen, also.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:00 PM | Link
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One more word about "rapid response."

Sometimes in the name of rapidly responding, people just reach out and react.

A reaction isn't always connected to thoughtful consideration of the situation; it can just be a knee-jerk kind of thing. A good response has been thought over a little.

I appreciate the little book by Rowan Williams titled Writing in the Dust, which he wrote in 2001, shortly after being a few blocks from the Twin Towers when they were attacked. As you may know, he's the Archbishop of Canterbury. The book uses the story of the woman caught in adultery and the image of Jesus when, having just been asked by the elders what he would do, he first bends down and writes something in the dust on the ground. He just pauses before responding. As you probably know his response was wise: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Thus, utterly upending the Law of the day.

Williams suggests that it might have been much wiser for everyone (including our pResident) to have paused a bit and listened deeply before deciding what to do about the attacks on September 11th.

So, this is to suggest that there could have actually been some benefit to Howard and others waiting a little bit before responding. In fact, wasn't it the Scream and the media circus that followed what most woke us up to the need to expose and change the way the media operates?

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:01 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

what = that

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:03 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I trust people only when I'm the only one who will bear the consequence, should my trust be misplaced. I feel it would be irresponsible of me to rely on trust when others would bear the consequences. I believe strongly in ongoing verification.
Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:46 PM
----------------
Not Others! You too!
In economy I�m trying to imagine (let�s name it "collective" economy), the responsibilities will be shared among voters (including you!) AS WELL since decision based on voting.

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 06:03 PM | Link
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Posted by Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 05:55 PM

=HUG!= ♥

I think we've all been taking turns at this.
Gee, you mean even down there in the warm climes you get the winter blues?
Or is it the Dem blues?

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:06 PM | Link
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More Sim Kerry. He doesn't die in this one, but this could be scandalous on the heels of the big SpongeBob flap...

http://bmgbiz.net/simkerry1b.html

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 06:07 PM | Link
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Not having young children anymore,
I am blissfully unaware of "SpongeBob"
and have really been turned off by the rather unbeautiful animation and the name "SpongeBob SquarePants." There's not enough imagination in the name or the visualisation to pull me in.

Sorry.

But! I will say it has given me pause that Renee is referring to it so much, since I value her views so much.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:10 PM | Link
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EAGLES WIN! EAGLES WIN! EAGLES WIN!

YEARGHHHHHHHHHHH!

Posted by: NM*Mom*for*Dean at January 23, 2005 06:11 PM | Link
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Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 06:06 PM

Ha! It gets COLD here in the winter. It's almost 60 degrees outside right now, which is unusual, but it was down around 20 degrees last night.

I'm sad because Frank had to leave today, although I'll see him in a week, when I go to Amsterdam. Almost all of the wedding plans are in place, and it's easy enough to do final things via phone and e-mail, so spending a month there won't interfere with anything!

Keeping is simple has made it so much more fun.

Posted by: Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 06:12 PM | Link
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OK. Now how do we get from there to progressives being thin-skinned?
Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 05:53 PM
---------------------
Now, read this ONE ONLY part.
Replace word �Bourgeois� with �Corporations� and �Proletarians� with �Working People� respectively AND DO NOT ask any more questions until finish reading (may be several times!) and honestly try to understand it.
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/26/manifesto/176-1.html
Good luck!

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 06:13 PM | Link
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Posted by listener at January 23, 2005 06:01 PM

I agree that a "considered" response is appropriate in many situations. But in the most critical phase of an accelerated primary race isn't one of them. I don't think we needed to see The Scream 700+ times to get the message that the media needed reform....50 or wo would have done it. And I think most of us already knew that, anyway.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:13 PM | Link
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Well, it's been wonderful blogging without my fingers turning blue tonight! Ha!
We finally got up above zero zone again today.

It's minus-7 now, but warmer than when it was minus-2 last night.
I guess that's because we have 2 more inches of insulation on the roof (snow).

Hallo Christine!! ♥
We got only two new inches of snow from the storm!
What have you got? 20-25 inches? How's your back?

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:15 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:13 PM

As ever, you make a good point. :)

All things in balance, I suppose.

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:17 PM | Link
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Posted by Page*in*Albuquerque at January 23, 2005 06:12 PM

It bodes well for your marriage that you are sad when he leaves and one week can seem so long. ♥

We are simply going to have to have a virtual wedding reception here on the blog!!!

XOXOXXX

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:18 PM | Link
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Another drive-by: RFK Jr. may run for Atty.Gen in NY

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7804.htm

Posted by: JeannieB in Crozet VA at January 23, 2005 06:18 PM | Link
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Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 06:13 PM

OK...may have to wait until tomorrow.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM | Link
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listener--I can't stand SpongeBob. Demetrius and the kids like the show, but it grates on me. From what I can tell, there is some good humor in it, but I have the same thoughts regarding the animation style etc.

This isn't really about SpongeBob, though. Here is the original post I did about it Dobson's remarks:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/20/12437/8004

There is *so* much I could say about Dobson and why he troubles me. I guess it comes down to his hate-based religious message. It also troubles me that anyone *invites* him to speak at black-tie inaugural dinners.

If bandwidth allows, I hope people will watch the video Dobson is complaining about--you can find it as a link in Olbermann's comment.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6852828/

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM | Link
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Roemer will say anything he can to get elected. But the bottom line is, he will be true to HIMSELF before he is true to the party. You can rest assured that he will, indeed, do all he can to get rid of Roe v Wade. He will be underhanded and sneaky about it, but he WILL do it. Trust your Dad and Howard Dean before you ever trust Roemer.

Posted by Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:30 PM

Sorry about the late response, but...

It wasn't the fact that Roemer said he wouldn't try to change the party's position on abortion that impressed me, it was the simple fact that he would bring up his position on abortion in a room filled with pro-choice people. That took some guts.

Posted by: Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM | Link
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Posted by Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM

Oh, if you're ranting against Dobson and the whole "Focus on the Family" message, I'm right there beside you!

That is NOT Christianity, it's bigotry!

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:21 PM | Link
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Posted by Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM

Oh my...you aren't implying that all those pro-choice progressives might not have been accepting of another person's viewpoint, are you? :- )

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:22 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM
-------------
That's too fast, I think.
No rush....

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 06:22 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Thank you, Tara, for posting this transcript!

After driving to Sacramento and back for the Western Region DNC Caucus, I have blogged a record of my experience on DailyKos and MyDD.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/1/23/18140/8326
and
http://www.mydd.com/story/2005/1/23/175334/234

or click.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 06:23 PM | Link
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Not Others! You too!
Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 06:03 PM

What I was basically saying here is that I'm inclined to trust, say, a friend to be a friend. If they aren't, my problem. And you can't be a friend if you have to verify. But trust is not something I willing to do in politics or many other scenarios. I'm not looking for elected officials to be my friend; I'm looking for them to represent the people who elected them.

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:25 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

dailykos seems to get Firsties from folks lately,
and we get the linky leftovers.

LOL

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:26 PM | Link
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I'm slow enough that ONE blog is a lot to keep up with! Ha!

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:27 PM | Link
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Hi all, I haven't seen this article discussed but when reading the Washington Post today, I found this story truly frightening. It's incredible to me that the principles and values of our country can be so flagrantly abused and not be the main topic of discussion of the pundits and the media. Didn't see all the Sunday shows as to the extent that this was discussed. Long article but important to be aware of:

Secret Unit Expands Rumsfeld's Domain
New Espionage Branch Delving Into CIA Territory

By Barton Gellman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 23, 2005; Page A01

The Pentagon, expanding into the CIA's historic bailiwick, has created a new espionage arm and is reinterpreting U.S. law to give Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld broad authority over clandestine operations abroad, according to interviews with participants and documents obtained by The Washington Post.

The previously undisclosed organization, called the Strategic Support Branch, arose from Rumsfeld's written order to end his "near total dependence on CIA" for what is known as human intelligence. Designed to operate without detection and under the defense secretary's direct control, the Strategic Support Branch deploys small teams of case officers, linguists, interrogators and technical specialists alongside newly empowered special operations forces.
click my name for rest of article ...

Here's an article with John McCain's comments.
McCain to raise questions on secret spy unit

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30713-2005Jan23.html?nav=hcmodule

Posted by: Lois in MD at January 23, 2005 06:27 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:25 PM
---------
We'll discuss that topic later.
Ok?

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 06:28 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:13

I think I'm inclined to agree with you.

Posted by: Holdek at January 23, 2005 06:32 PM | Link
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been the best way to handle it to improve his chances for later primary victories?
Posted by Holdek at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM

Hello Sorry for the late reply. After flying today I had to take a nap and then went out and sanded on my fiberglass project. Warming up inside.

I wondered that very same thing on my way home from Iowa�Rich and I had made some pretty good contacts in the field organization and we both were thinking about it. By the time I got home I was pretty sure the campaign was over.

The campaign suffered from a lot of flaws. Not the least of which was that as a whole it had begun to think that it was some sort of �new� campaign which was defying the laws of political reality.

There was no opo research done on Gov. Dean�s past statements, the only live filiming that I was aware of was Kate who carried a video camera everywhere, there was no �political back room� (or one of any substance). According to a producer friend at CNN the campaign never asked for a �feed� of what they were showing (which they would have provided). So no one at the Val Air knew how the scream had played over the air.

No one had written a concession speech, as it was Howard just went out, very tired and did a really poor stump speech that got over the top. As I watched it at the Val Air I didn�t see the CNN feed, but I watched the expression on Candy Crowley and my friends face and even from where I stood I could tell it was not going to play well. I mentioned that to someone in the campaign near me and got �Its just Howard being Howard�.

But what would I have done?

I would have flown home to VT. Gotten Howard a good nights sleep while �the backroom� schemed how to recover. Howard would have gone on all the morning shows with some of the levity and a sort of meaculpa that we eventually got to about three days latter on Sawyer.

Sawyer and Judy Dean were fine. But Dr. Mrs. Dean had been used only barely by the campaign, and by the time she got to Sawyer it looked like desperation. The fact that Dr. Mrs. Dean was nervous was good but a few women in the circles that I walk in were of the impression �he�s holding her up, afraid to let her talk� sort of thing (but I work aggressive females so maybe its an odd sample).

Letterman needed to happen the next night (that�s what Clinton did) and probably not just the top ten but a live performance.

The campaign had bet everything on Iowa. Money had been spent in just arrogant fashion at all levels. There was no plan if we didn�t win it�and no one at the campaign level that we interacted with in Iowa (which was reasonably high up) even remotely thought that we might lose.

I sort of compared the campaign to the Titanic after Iowa although in retrospect we really hit the iceberg with the �we are no safer because of Saddam� line that was thrown in during the foreign policy speech.

The staff could have spun that had they 1) been prepared for it and 2) had the least idear that spinning was important and 3) had good spinners. As it was the only spinning was done by our opponents.

That�s when Howard or someone should have said �Burlington we have a problem� but no one did. We had defied gravity for so long we thought we had invented a new law, instead we had only proved what goes up usually comes down.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 06:33 PM | Link
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Posted by cMia at January 23, 2005 03:13 PM
re astrology reading for Howard Dean:

This was very interesting for me to read because when I saw him at Sacramento yesterday, I got a sense of solidity, of power off him-- like "I know who I am and I know where I'm going." I noticed this both in the small encounter with the supporter, and also while he was sitting onstage with the other candidates. Maybe it's just my Deaniac wishful thinking, I dunno.

But I have to note that the astrological reading doesn't necessarily say that he will win the DNC Chair, only that his influence with the party, and with the American people, will grow and grow over the next few years. This could come from either path, as he said he is going to continue with DFA whether he wins the chairmanship or not, and that's likely to have a powerful effect on the party and the country.

You know, what I'd like to see, is an astrological chart for DFA itself. You know, "born" on March 18, at 12:30 EST, and so on.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 06:34 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by NM*Mom*for*Dean at January 23, 2005 06:11 PM
----
My little one is celebrating. His two favorite players are McNabb and T.O.

And to Page -- I had a long distance romance with my hubby prior to our marriage. It was rough. But when we did see each other - it was sooo sweet. Love is a beautiful thing.

Posted by: vb at January 23, 2005 06:36 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 06:25 PM
-----------------
Sorry I've found, that it might make sense to continue discussion since it's "fresh"

But trust is not something I willing to do in politics or many other scenarios. I'm not looking for elected officials to be my friend;
---------
Why not?


I'm looking for them to represent the people who elected them.
---------
That means to represent you too! Isn't it
---------


So why not friend also?

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 06:37 PM | Link
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Here's a second story pertaining to the leader of Rumsfeld's new secret espionage unit:

Some Question Background of Unit's Leader

Inexperienced Personnel Cited As a Risk to Espionage Work

By Barton Gellman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, January 23, 2005; Page A10

Col. George Waldroup, an Army reserve officer who commands the Defense Intelligence Agency's Strategic Support Branch, is described by associates as a colorful Texan who refers to himself in the third person, as "GW."

Among skeptics of the Pentagon's intelligence initiatives, including members of two elite special operations units interviewed for this article, Waldroup is controversial. His ascent to a top espionage post from a civilian career at the Immigration and Naturalization Service is a cautionary tale, according to them, about the risks of rapid expansion in the staffing and mission of clandestine units.

Waldroup, according to two people who have worked with him, refers loosely to previous secret assignments but is not a graduate of the Army's Special Warfare Center or the CIA's Field Tradecraft Course for intelligence officers. Until last year, colleagues said, Waldroup managed the transportation and security of search teams seeking weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, arranging the convoys that took them in and out of their base near Baghdad International Airport.

Waldroup and his subordinates are central to Rumsfeld's plan to empower the U.S. Special Operations Command for intelligence missions it has not performed before. click for rest of article ...

Posted by: Lois in MD at January 23, 2005 06:38 PM | Link
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Posted by Lois in MD at January 23, 2005 06:27 PM

Lois!! Thank you so much for this vital article!!
This is the most disturbing thing I've read since the headlines on November 3rd!

Please make sure HQ gets a copy of this!
Send it to Tara: tliloia@democracyforamerica.com
so maybe DFA can focus on it!

One more quote from the article:

"Perhaps the most significant shift is the Defense Department's bid to conduct surreptitious missions, in friendly and unfriendly states, when conventional war is a distant or unlikely prospect -- activities that have traditionally been the province of the CIA's Directorate of Operations."

( !!! ) For those who missed it, see Lois' post upthread at 6:27PM
or click

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:38 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Are you a member of the Nurturant Parent Society? Or the Deadbeat Dad Society?
~~~~~

ROTFLMAO!!!

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 06:41 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Holdek at January 23, 2005 04:53 PM<<

On additional thing I would add to my reply.

Somewhere in the campaign Dr./Gov. Dean's bio got lost. They had an excellent bio presentation. It aired "once" I think in Madison WI...but on the road in Iowa it was the warmup/test the sound system act for the rally.s

It was grand. You couldnt have shown all of it, but there were 30 and 60 second snippits in there which could have with modest editing made up bio ads.

We never played those...people outside of the faithful never knew Howard's background, never knew he worked in FL or in a poor hospital in the Bronz when he came from relative privelege.

All they heard was the "draft" story and the angry bit and the liberal birkenstock gig which the opposition put up. The campaign errored greatly I think by not letting the public see HOward the man and get to know him, his wife, and his family.

My business world is flying...but most of the people there knew little of Howard's background, thought he was single with no kids and kind of a "yankee shut in".

The American people have a picture that they want to see of their President...successful campaigns work their guy/gal to present that picture. Shrub bought a ranch and became a "cowboy" becuase that fits one of the pictures that Americans feel happy with.

the Scream became the picture.

The first real campaign I can recall in any depth was th e76 one. Ford was President but they bioed him like he was unknown (which his background was). The bio's on Carter were impressive. His wife Rosalyn is a wonderful women (and I was a Ford guy) and they got her out campaigning in NH and being on the NH TV and radio shows and it worked magic.

We never saw Dr. Mrs Dean and NEVER really knew her story (except Howard thought she was smarter in a particular class then he was...and he is clearly in love with her...that comes through the TV...but only if you are a political junkie because we didnt see her much).

It may have been a loser here (what wouldnt have been) but every knkows Laura Bush's bio.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 06:44 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Lois! I just sent both of your posts along to Tara Liloia and Dina Wolkoff at DFA.

Thanks again!! ♥

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:47 PM | Link
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it was the simple fact that he would bring up his position on abortion in a room filled with pro-choice people. That took some guts.

Posted by Brandon in CA at January 23, 2005 06:19 PM<<

YOu have hit the nail on the head. Both parties have reached saturation on the issue.

A anti full choice abortion candidate couldnt speak on the issue to a Democratic group without taking their lives into their hands any more then a somewhat pro choice Republican could speak to the GOP without getting booed off stage.

Its all or nothing in both parties. The folks in the middle are either "misgonist" (spell) or "baby killers".

Take your pick.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 06:49 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Well, I have to go prepare for a morning meeting.

Keep working for the good.

We're gaining ground.

Lovingly...

Posted by: listener at January 23, 2005 06:49 PM | Link
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Charles in Montana linked to photos of American soldiers executing an Iraqi civilian last night.

Click. Warning - graphic

There was speculation that these photographs were fake.

They look real, to me.

Sometimes scenes of war are so horrible that denial is the first response to viewing them, like the pictures of Iraqi prisoners being tortured by our soldiers in Abu Ghraib.

Actually, the guys in the photos Charles linked remind me, in attitude and facial expression, of our people in Abu Ghraib: manic, in the Abu Ghraib photos and in these recent pictures, one soldier smiling and laughing as he relaxes next to the body of the executed prisoner.

Perhaps this is just the adrenaline of combat duty.

Or, are these people high? Could they be getting experimental drugs before they go out on duty?

http://www.iraq-war.ru/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=37222

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 06:52 PM | Link
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Click my name and vote!
~~~

LOL Yes = 14%
No = 79%
No difference = 7%

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 06:52 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Dean, I'm lightin' those candles for ya.

Posted by: ELR at January 23, 2005 06:53 PM | Link
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A reaction isn't always connected to thoughtful consideration of the situation; it can just be a knee-jerk kind of thing. A good response has been thought over a little.

AMEN to that. Remember Dean's almost immediate repsonse to the Caucus remark. He basically apologized for the remark when he was, actually, quite correct in his statement.

Had he said, "No comment, I will have to see the tapes for myself to see what the ruckus is about." He would have had a better come back. Like. "Well, I was right then, and I'm still right!"

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 06:55 PM | Link
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Posted by Lois in MD at January 23, 2005 06:27 PM

The Intelligence Reform bill expanded the DOD's authority, in this regard, and so Rumsfeld is now "legally" authorized towards this clandestine effort.

They are dismantling the CIA, by appropriation, by law, by how they're hiring people.

And, never forget, the entire cost of Bush's War is extra-budgetary. It's all supplemental, with much of the information regarding expenditures protected as classified evidence under Homeland Security legislation and as national security matters.

We have no FOIA access to much of where much of our tax dollars are being spent.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 06:59 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 06:52 PM<<

These photos look real to you because you WANT to believe that they are real. That in itself speaks volumes; but the fact that you just sort of disregard some basic evidence is well priceless.

First there is the type of construction. Its definatly not ARabic. Second there is the web site...who do you think is putting it together?

Third there is the execution scene (and I'll stop here...tearing the editing apart is something else for latter). The body changes position a few times.

First its up against the wall, but that would make the shot with the "body" and the soldiers possible...so after its "dead" its moved?

Where is the blood? Where are the body parts that look like they have been hit at close range by high velocity weapons (like you notice no trauma to the head or the back (where the rounds would have landed).

But heh its important for you to believe your preconcieved notions. Its kind of like "If we assume"...And be anti US...

What do you think Howard Deans reaction would be to these pictures? Mine is to laugh at the bad work.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 07:00 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

A great Social Security idea

Here's a great idea! spread the word..


Subject: If You are A Working Person Whose Had To Earn The Money You've Been
Paid Read This.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT!
KEEP IT GOING!!!!

2008� Election Issue!!
GET A BILL STARTED TO PLACE ALL POLITICIANS ON SOC. SEC.
This must be an issue in "2008 ". Please! Keep it going.
----------------------------------
SOCIAL SECURITY:
(This is worth reading. It is short and to the point)

Perhaps we are asking the wrong questions during election years.
Our Senators and Congressmen do not pay into Social Security and, of course,
they do not collect from it.
You see, Social Security benefits were not suitable for persons of
their rare elevation in society.�� They felt they should have a
special plan for themselves. So,! many years ago they voted in their

� own� benefit plan .
In more recent years, no congressperson has felt the need to change it.
After all, it is a great plan.
For all practical purposes their plan works like this:
When they retire, they continue to draw the same pay until they die.
Except it may increase from time to time ! for cost of living adjustments..

This is calculated on an average life span for each of those two Dignitaries
For example, Senator Byrd and Congressman White and their wives may expect
to draw $7,800,000.00 (that's Seven Million, Eight-Hundred Thousand
Dollars), with their wives drawing $275,000.00 during the last years of
their lives.

Younger Dignitaries who retire at an early age, will receive much more
during the rest of their lives.
Their cost for this excellent plan is $0.00. NADA....ZILCH...
This little perk they voted for themselves is free to them. You and I pick
up the tab for this plan. The fun! ds for this fine retirement plan come
directly from the General Funds; "OUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK"!
�From our own Social Security Plan, which you and I pay (or have paid)
into,-every payday until we retire (which amount is matched by our
employer)-we can expect to get an average of $1,000 per month after
retirement.
Or, in other words, we would have to collect our average of $1,000 monthly
benefits for 68 years and one (1) month to equal Senator!
Bill Bradley's benefits!
Social Security could be very good if only one small change were made.

That change would be to:
Jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan from under the Senators and
Congressmen. Put them into the Social Security plan with the rest of us .
then sit back.....
and watch how fast they would fix it.

Posted by: susan in MA at January 23, 2005 07:00 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Listen up! To all those people who oppose Empire and Oppose �War for
Peace.� For all those who consider yourself to the left or just anti-
right-wing, or simply oppose what is happening with our Country
today, or simply with our foreign Policy. Maybe you are just
concerned with the way things are transpiring. Maybe you oppose the
idea of WWIII. Please listen.

Our Savior is not coming! JFK, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy.
They were taken from us. There is not another one coming to save us.

Right Now, the crowd in charge of the United States of America is
taking the World down the path to WWIII. The President of the United
states issued a warning to 2/3 of the world that their days are
numbered. The crowd in charge now has plans of invasion and war all
over the globe. And they do it all in the name of freedom. They have
plans to divide the world. They know the reaction this will cause
from dictatorships and non-democracies alike.

The world is headed down a path that will be divided among �Free
Nations� and �Tyrannies.� The Neocon agenda has been in the works for
years now. They know that when the time comes that Europe will ally
itself with the �Free Nations.� They envision a huge war to bring
freedom to the Globe. They were ready for their opportunity. It came
September 11th 2001. They jumped all over it. While we were in
SHOCK. THEY SCHEMED.

Posted by: trueamericanchristian at January 23, 2005 07:01 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Another drive-by: RFK Jr. may run for Atty.Gen in NY

Cool, We are going to go see him next weekend in Seattle

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 07:01 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

They have a view of the world that is very skewed. A view that is
not logical. Its based on their own life experiences, which means
that it is based on absolutely NOTHING.

We can no longer wait here in the United States for 1 person to come
along and lead us back. We can no longer wait for 1 Presidential
Candidate. IT HAS TO COME FROM THE PEOPLE!!! WE are the ones who
must succeed. WE are the ones who must start a movement.

As I speak there are movements running across America. There is the
Christian Movement which has allied itself with the Conservative
movement. Then, there is also the NEOCON movement.

Where are the opposition movements? There are none.

The only other force on the Globe today is the Radical MuslimMovement, which welcomes death and destruction. It stands NOW as theopposition.

This means MAD. Mutual Assured Destruction.

This is why we see our world slipping away. Because we have been
asleep. WE have no movement. We are caught in between. 2 moving
trains and we are standing still.

We cannot just move out of the way. WE are closer to the First
allied movements. And so that is the movement we must derail 1st. We
will derail both Movements by our Third Movement.

Our leaders were taken from us, but they cannot take us all!

The FUTURE of the WORLD is at stake.

March 19th and 20th!!!!!!

Join others as we begin our journey. As we take the first step in
our movement.

The Third Front of HOPE AND LIGHT!!!

A movement to Stand Against Empire and WWIII. And to stand for that Republic we so desperately want. We Stand for Peace.

Posted by: trueamericanchristian at January 23, 2005 07:02 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Thanks for the transcript. All the morning shows in the Boston market were pre-empted for blizzard coverage.

Thanks also to Listener for that beautifully expressed "wings and feathers" theology of co-creating with God. Amen and Amen!

Posted by: TrueBlueMajority at January 23, 2005 07:02 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

bring up his position on abortion in a room filled with pro-choice people. That took some guts.

Brandon, he HAD to. They all know his position. If he hadn't brought it up, they would have embarrassed him with questions. He's just being politically smart.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 07:03 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I take that back, mom says Face the Nation was on (does anyone still watch that?).

MTP is rebroadcast at 3am but TW w/George does not have a regularly scheduled rebroadcast.

Thanks again for transcript.

Posted by: TrueBlueMajority at January 23, 2005 07:04 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Perhaps it is not we, but they, who must learn to compromise?

Click.

Survey Finds Church-Going Americans Less Tolerant
Sat Jan 22, 2005 6:38 PM ET

By Michael Conlon

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Church-going Americans have grown increasingly intolerant in the past four years of politicians making compromises on such hot issues as abortion and gay rights, according to a survey released on Saturday.

At the same time, those polled said they were growing bolder about pushing their beliefs on others -- even at the risk of offending someone.

The trends could indicate that religion has become "more prominent in American discourse ... more salient," according to Ruth Wooden, president of Public Agenda, a nonpartisan research organization which released the survey.

It could also indicate "more polarized political thinking. There do not seem to be very many voices arguing for compromise today," she said in an interview. "It could be that more religious voices feel under siege, pinned against the wall by cultural developments. They may feel more emboldened as a result."

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:05 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

my local dem city committee is a farce. at our recent progressive women's meeting someone mentioned that it was in complete meltdown.

well, I am going to the dems meeting this week to check it out.
and I am thinking that I may try to take it over with some friends I know.
If they are sitting there doing nothing, what should I do. I own a small business, so I have some skills, was president of three PTA,s, am the chairman of our school district's family life committe, etc.
so what do u think?
what do you all think.
I want to make a difference.
what would howard do?
oh, that would be a great bumper sticker.

Posted by: lindab at January 23, 2005 07:07 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

WE THE PEOPLE!!! SPREAD THE WORD.

FIRST STEP BEGINS MARCH 19th!!!

WE MUST LEAD!

Posted by: trueamericanchristian at January 23, 2005 07:07 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

listener--I actually first heard of Dobson in the context of his *shudder* parenting advice. I first heard about him at La Leche League meetings--most people there were at least somewhat attracted to the philosophy of "Attachment Parenting" (nursing, family bed, gentle guidance, often homsechooling). Dobson, I learned, advocated pretty much the complete opposite of that sort of parenting.

Click for a glimpse of Dobson on parenting:

I firmly believe in acquainting children with God's judgment and wrath while they are young. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to skip over the unpleasant scriptures in our teaching. The wages of sin is death, and children have the right to understand that fact.

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 07:10 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

WTG Pam and PDA!!!!!!

Watch Keynotes of PDA Summit on C-SPAN-2!

Keynote Panel and the Media Panel presentations from the Summit in D.C. will be broadcast on Monday morning, Jan. 24, at 8:36 a.m. Eastern time on C-SPAN-2. Check your local schedules for local broadcast times. Also, C-SPAN will stream the broadcast video over the Internet.

Posted by: jjem! at January 23, 2005 07:11 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

then sit back.....
and watch how fast they would fix it.

Sorry, susan. That is an OLD OLD email that has been around for years and completely debunked. It is an urban myth. You can look it up here http://antivirus.about.com/od/emailhoaxes/l/blenhoax.htm or click

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 07:12 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I want to make a difference.
what would howard do?
oh, that would be a great bumper sticker.

I want to make a difference.
what would howard do?
oh, that would be a great bumper sticker

~~~~

WHHHOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO GO for it, girl!
Show them the way.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 07:16 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

We'll discuss that topic later.
Ok?
Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 06:28 PM

OK

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 07:16 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Who Goes to Church?
Older Southern Women Do; Many Catholic Men Don't

Analysis
by Dalia Sussman
ABCNEWS.com

N E W Y O R K, March 1 � Been to church this week? If you're an older woman in the South, chances are you have.

Not counting weddings and funerals, 38 percent of Americans say they go to religious services at least once a week. But there are big differences across demographic groups, with self-reported attendance peaking among older people, women, Southerners and Baptists, among others.

The biggest gap is between the oldest and youngest age groups. Sixty percent of people age 65 and older report attending religious services at least once a week; among 18 to 30-year-olds, just 28 percent go that often. Previous ABCNEWS polls, similarly, have found that religious belief and practice increase with age.

There are other factors. Nearly half of Southerners attend services weekly, substantially more than elsewhere. Forty-four percent of women go weekly, compared to 32 percent of men. It follows that, among Southern women age 45 and up, weekly church attendance soars to 68 percent.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/church_poll020301.html

Posted by: HopeCat at January 23, 2005 07:18 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Stepping Up To The Plate ---$425.00 from 11 Fabulous Contributors as of 7:20pm 1/23/05

******HIT the Dean for DNC BAT*******

? $1000
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******HIT the Dean for DNC BAT*******
You'll get a FREE DeanforDNC button!
The BlogBookClub�s: DEANforDNC Bat

CLICK
http://tinyurl.com/5symy


Posted by: ChrisNYC at January 23, 2005 07:23 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

But trust is not something I willing to do in politics or many other scenarios.
Why not?
Human judgement is very fallible.
---------
I'm looking for them to represent the people who elected them.
That means to represent you too! Isn't it
Yes, but I'm not someone who votes my self interest. I want what's best for everybody.
---------
So why not friend also?
That's not what I need from an elected official. Need them to run the government. Hard to hold friends accountable, and holding my elected officials accountable is my job as a citizen.
Posted by turn at January 23, 2005 06:37 PM

Posted by: Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

DFA's D.C. office is mentioned in Freddy Baldassaro's (sp?) posting on this blog. Maybe I missed it -- do you know when DFA opened an office in D.C.? Freddy's posting said that the DFA communications department works there.

Do you think DFA is going to be based out of D.C. if Dean becomes DNC Chair, rather than in Burlington, VT? Do you think Dean is planning to move to D.C. either way? I know he's talked about how the DNC needs to move out to the 50 states and not be so D.C.-based, but do you think he'll really move the DNC main office itself? I'm guessing most of the staff live in the D.C. area and he isn't going to fire everyone or ask them all to move.

Anyone have insight on this?

Posted by: susan at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by HopeCat at January 23, 2005 07:18 PM

my sister in law, 65 and having to work full time at radford univ, in radford, va cause her husband has no retirement after being a workaholic for his company and no pension. she takes care of a son that is a vegatable and she works so the state will pay to come in and babysit him. it is sad. she is a great woman.
but on election day she said she and her church friends were in line to vote a 6am. I said why? cause we don't want gays to marry.
so I guess they should be upset with w cause he is dissing them on this. but since fox won't tell them, they don't care.
and her a hole husband wants to become an activist. I said for what. he said. so the govt will pay to take care of my son while I am there in the house too. they want a nanny for their son but his father is there too.
and my sister in law uses the medicines they get free from ss to help her sleep. her son can't use them but she uses the perscripion to get cheap medicine to help her sleep,
republican welfare.

Posted by: lindab at January 23, 2005 07:28 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 04:37 PM

--I 2nd that!

Posted by: ChrisNYC at January 23, 2005 07:28 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

He's just being politically smart.

Posted by Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 07:03 PM<<

But gutsy to. Both extremes of the abortion debate are the most intolerant people in the country. They both urge "compromise" but its only on their terms. It does not allow at all that someone has an alternate opinion formed with equal belief and sincerity.

The opinions of about 40% of Americans are stopping 60% of us from reaching a reasonable compromise...which is Roe.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 07:31 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

lindab - about taking over your local Dems committee. I would do a stealth campaign, otherwise you get their backs up. Attend the meeting and get a sense of the group. Find out how representation is done - do they have district chairs, etc. Are there vacancies? Tell them you want to get involved and be ready to volunteer. It's very possible they are lacking volunteers for many positions.

If you have friends who are willing to do the same, don't seem threatening as a group to the existing committee or they may block you however they can.

You may find there are some very competent people along with some dead wood. Sometimes the ineffective organizations are full of people who have been going through the motions for years and not accomplishing much. They don't run good meetings, either.

Please report back on what you find!

Posted by: Elly in MD at January 23, 2005 07:36 PM | Link
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Both extremes of the abortion debate are the most intolerant people in the country
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I hadn't noticed that.

The right extreme is for murdering and harassing Doctors, blowing up clinics, threatening the lives of those going in an out of clinics who are exercising constituional rights.

How, exactly, does the left extreme come close to matching that?

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 07:36 PM | Link
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There's news:

A big quake hit Indonesia. 6.1 on Richter scale.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=R5XU3MGVHMTHQCRBAE0CFFA?type=worldNews&storyID=7402837

Click.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:38 PM | Link
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Anyone have insight on this?

Posted by susan at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM

Susan -

This is all that referenced to the situation on this blog, as far as I know.

Thursday, January 20, 2005

More Work to Do

Freddy Baldassaro is one of the newest members of the Democracy for America Staff. He joins the Communications Department in Washington, DC.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:42 PM | Link
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38 percent of Americans say they go to religious services at least once a week.
Posted by HopeCat at January 23, 2005 07:18 PM

***********
I live in the so-called Bible Belt of Central Florida where most of my unincorporated town (about 3500 - 4500 in the winter) are seniors. We have three churches - a small Baptist church, a small Catholic church with a drive-by bishop once a week, and a very small make shift group that meets in the community building.

If these polls are correct, I'd say we had better get busy here building churchs like crazy for those 60% of our residents to attend every week. People typically fudge on answering polls like these, who knows why.

Reading the obituaries here, most of the deceased are said to have been a Protestant, Catholic, etc. That is more believable - they didn't attend church, they just considered themselves of this or that religion, if any at all.

Posted by: Joan in Florida at January 23, 2005 07:44 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM
------------------
But trust is not something I willing to do in politics or many other scenarios.
Why not?
Human judgement is very fallible.

Yes it is. Nevertheless it is made in �politics or many other scenarios� for some (what?) reasons by VERY LIMITED number of humans anyway, moreover with HUGE MISTAKES (if not intentional crime). So what we are going to lose with very �fallible� decisions made by MANY instead? I think it would be much more errors pruned. Don�t you think so?


I'm looking for them to represent the people who elected them.
That means to represent you too! Isn't it
Yes, but I'm not someone who votes my self interest. I want what's best for everybody.
Yes, for everybody AND for YOU TOO!


So why not friend also?
That's not what I need from an elected official. Need them to run the government. Hard to hold friends accountable, and holding my elected officials accountable is my job as a citizen.

Oh... yes! It is hard to hold friends accountable!
That is why it will represent challenge not only for your friend but for YOU TOO! But what then ultimate friendship is all about if not MUTUAL HONESTY ?

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 07:45 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I say we substitute church meetings with MeetUps!

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:45 PM | Link
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Posted by susan at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM


It's much more economical to run DFA out of Burlington, but any political org needs at least a small office in DC just because a lot of the work will require contact with people in DC.

I doubt that Howard plans to move anywhere unless Judy is planning on retiring from medicine (which I doubt she is). I also doubt that DFA HQ is moving anywhere anytime soon. Just a gut feeling.

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 07:49 PM | Link
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I don't need my political leaders to be my friends.

I need them to be leaders.

I need them to garner respect.

I need them to represent their constituents.

I need them to follow the rule of law.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:49 PM | Link
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I am trying to pull together the pieces I need to do a diary about James Dobson and what he stands for--which is very *anti* family, at least in my book. Don't know if I'll manage to finish it tonight though. Here's one thing I read before, which just resurfaced in my current searching. Dobson explains the importance of showing your kids who's boss, through a story about disciplining pets:

"Please don't misunderstand me. Siggie is a member of our family and we love him dearly. And despite his anarchistic nature, I have finally taught him to obey a few simple commands. However, we had some classic battles before he reluctantly yielded to my authority.

"The greatest confrontation occurred a few years ago when I had been in Miami for a three-day conference. I returned to observe that Siggie had become boss of the house while I was gone. But I didn't realize until later that evening just how strongly he felt about his new position as Captain.

"At eleven o'clock that night, I told Siggie to go get into his bed, which is a permanent enclosure in the family room. For six years I had given him that order at the end of each day, and for six years Siggie had obeyed.

"On this occasion, however, he refused to budge. You see, he was in the bathroom, seated comfortably on the furry lid of the toilet seat. That is his favorite spot in the house, because it allows him to bask in the warmth of a nearby electric heater..."

"When I told Sigmund to leave his warm seat and go to bed, he flattened his ears and slowly turned his head toward me. He deliberately braced himself by placing one paw on the edge of the furry lid, then hunched his shoulders, raised his lips to reveal the molars on both sides, and uttered his most threatening growl. That was Siggie's way of saying. "Get lost!"

"I had seen this defiant mood before, and knew there was only one way to deal with it. The ONLY way to make Siggie obey is to threaten him with destruction. Nothing else works. I turned and went to my closet and got a small belt to help me "reason" with Mr. Freud."

What developed next is impossible to describe. That tiny dog and I had the most vicious fight ever staged between man and beast. I fought him up one wall and down the other, with both of us scratching and clawing and growling and swinging the belt. I am embarrassed by the memory of the entire scene. Inch by inch I moved him toward the family room and his bed. As a final desperate maneuver, Siggie backed into the corner for one last snarling stand. I eventually got him to bed, only because I outweighed him 200 to 12!"

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 07:58 PM | Link
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Posted by Joan in Florida at January 23, 2005 07:44 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

A while back the Garbage Project did a poll and follow up on what people eat.

First they were asked to report what they ate.

Then their garbage was checked to see evidence.

Cottage cheese was the most over-reported food.

Either people hadn't bought it at all, or tons of spoiled cottage cheese was retrieved from their garbage.

The speculation was that people felt like they ought to eat it because it was healthy/virtuous. Wished that did did. Some even tried to.

ROFLMAO!!

(I believe that potato chips was the most under-reported item)

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:01 PM | Link
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don't need my political leaders to be my friends.
I need them to be leaders.
I need them to garner respect.
I need them to represent their constituents.
I need them to follow the rule of law.
Posted by Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 07:49 PM
--------------------
What may be the actual reason for not wanting �political leaders to be my friends� is what �unsafe thinker� (Free Spirit) has said, - which is willingness to HIDE behind leaders� shoulders and NOT TO SHARE RESPONSIBILITIES in case of mistakes.
Check it out with yourself!

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 08:02 PM | Link
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diversion for snowbound people...

Snowball Fight!
http://www.nny.com/holiday/snowcraft.htm
(click my name)

Posted by: Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 08:02 PM | Link
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I heard Senator Biden say on This Week that the Democrats might deny the confirmation of AG nominee Gonzales. What do you think the liklihood of one half of the decayed two-party duopoly doing that is?

If they support and confirm him, it will be more evidence of the opposition party acquiescing to the President for fear of being labeled obstructionists. This confirmation will have the effect of Democrats endorsing the administration's ill-conceived policies in Iraq. It will be as if it was OK for the abuse to occur at Abu Ghraib. How ignoring the Geneva Conventions never contributed to the increase in attacks on our young men and women in uniform. The end result being more American dead.

Isn't about time that one half of the decayed two-party duopoly stood for something?

BTW, Day 674 of this War of Choice and STILL not one WMD to be found. WHERE ARE THEY?

Posted by: LZ XRAY at January 23, 2005 08:06 PM | Link
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Why don't we do a DFA ad campaign? I mean, word of mouth is great and all, but I would like to see a commercial or two on the MSM about this organization, soliciting people to join up, or attend meetups. Some people just aren't on the internet and "just don't get it" because all they see is television, and just letting them know what this organization is all about could help get them to COME here and join our little revolution. We have to cross the digital divide somehow. If the ACLU can run ads soliciting members/donations (and some most excellent ads they are, too), then we can, too. Call it our Paul Revere Ad Campaign, alerting the country that we're organizing to oppose the danger that awaits us over the next four years.

We could fund it, too. Put up a bat, call for donations, hold a contest submitting ad ideas/clips, hire some professionals to put it together, and then pay to put it on the air. Quite achievable if we put our energy into it after this whole Dean DNC Chair thing is resolved one way or another.

Posted by: Jeremey*in*MS at January 23, 2005 08:07 PM | Link
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Posted by Free Spirit at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM
------------------
But trust is not something I willing to do in politics or many other scenarios.
Why not?
Human judgement is very fallible.

____________________________________


Do you ever fly? Or drive a car?

Is that trust or what?

Posted by: sunlight at January 23, 2005 08:08 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by: turn at January 23, 2005 08:02 PM

Sigh.

I said NEED not WANT.

I want everyone to be my friend, silly.

♥ ♥

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:09 PM | Link
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Hey puddle - The hearts thang worked!

Thanks!

♥♥♥♥♥

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:09 PM | Link
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Posted by Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 07:58 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Too bad Sigmund didn't de-balls the bastard. Maybe next life?

BTW, scroll down that page for an amazingly "marvelous" picture of GWB. . . .

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:10 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:09 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

:)

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:11 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I DO think that we all respond on some animal level to something in leaders that tells us non-verbally that they are healthy, vigorous, and strong and that they will lead us to safety in times of trouble.

That's an intuitive thing that people attribute to the object of the intuition.

So we say leaders are "charismatic."

So Bush may not be a good leader but many people feel he's charismatic.

I feel Dean is charismatic.

This, I believe, was a huge issue for John Kerry.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:12 PM | Link
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Dobson & right-wing fanatics: should've been thrown in jail, but his wife was too much of a nitwit coward to report him for cruel and inhumane treatment to animals--it's a *crime* (dutiful "wifely" doormat of an idiot that she is)--noone with an ounce of self integrity would live w/an a$$hole like that.

I don't even want to know how severely he abused his own children...don't start me.

"Going to church" means absolutely zipshi*--I am ***totally*** sick and tired of the warped absolutist literal analogies (think Catholic priests raping nuns and children)-it's nothing more than a coverup re: con-job/brainwashing those who haven't enough common sense to go pound sand/cognate a rationale thought or two upon their own free will (critical thinking skills debunk the entire farce).

This country is NOT a fu**ing theocracy...yet.

It's nothing but the epitome of bullying a defenseless dog--screw this authoritiarian crap--organized religion is a money-grubbing form of mind control/power differential.

Dobson is a batterer--a criminal, and I can't believe he was dumb enough to write about it in the public sphere (as well as gloat about abusing a defenseless animal--he needs to be bullied, too).

There's nothing "spiritual" about any of the con-artists on the far right wing.

Focus on the Family=a con-job.

Anyone with a modicum of an IQ who spends less than a minute on their portal can easily discern that....

Posted by: Mainefem at January 23, 2005 08:13 PM | Link
----------------------------------  


Posted by puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:01 PM

LOL Cottage cheese!!?? Every once in a while I think I've got a wee bit of a handle on figuring people out on the whole. Then they give answers like this to simple, easy to answer questions. The correlation of cottage cheese to one of attending church may be in the same pew.

Posted by: Joan in Florida at January 23, 2005 08:16 PM | Link
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Posted by Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 07:58 PM

Hmmm.

Reminds me of a time I got into an altercation with one of my cats. I don't remember what she did but it was an extreme no-no and I just went off on her, chased her upstairs and down yelling and hollering..

She ended up under the china cabinet growling. Every time I walked by she slashed at my ankles. This scared me because up until then the cat had never once raised a claw to me.

Finally -- after about three hours -- we both calmed down and apparently it had scared her too because she never did the bad thing again and I never chased her again and there was never another cross word between us.

I tell this by way of illustrating the difference between how to deal with an animal and how not.

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 08:16 PM | Link
----------------------------------  


There's nothing "spiritual" about any of the con-artists on the far right wing.

Posted by Mainefem at January 23, 2005 08:13 PM


Bush being #1 in this category.

Posted by: Joan in Florida at January 23, 2005 08:20 PM | Link
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Church-going Survey: I saw it as further evidence (there are other polls as well) that church attendance is diminishing - yes, high attendance in the South, but trending down by generation. I see that as a ray of hope. It's worth a look at the whole article-not very long.

As to the validity of the poll, I can see the point made upthread that people may even be over-reporting attendance.

From the article:

Methodology

This ABCNEWS/Beliefnet poll was conducted by telephone Feb. 19-20, among a random national sample of 1,008 adults. The results have a three-point error margin. Fieldwork was conducted by TNS Intersearch of Horsham, Pa.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/church_poll020301.html

Posted by: HopeCat at January 23, 2005 08:21 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:12 PM


I guess I don't work on an animal level.

I don't find bush, dean or hitler charismatic.

Posted by: sunlight at January 23, 2005 08:22 PM | Link
----------------------------------  


How, exactly, does the left extreme come close to matching that?

Posted by puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 07:36 PM<<

to be blunt, your post illustrates how.

The "far" right is not about murdering doctors, those people are simply law breakers at best in the "on the far edge" of those who have "Fallwell" like beliefs. "The far right" is mostly people who have deeply held, I think with some serious flaws belief that human life begins at conception and The Constitution supports that.

The far left is mostly people who have deeply held, I think with some serious flaws,belief that human life basicaly starts at birth and The Constitution supports that.

Each side (moving the law breakers out of it) has blinders on to the fallacy of their "arguments" and their logic. The far rights arguments center on "when the soul" comes into the body.

I dont know when it does; but I dont think it does at conception because the soul in my religious beliefs is a product of thought and intellect and you cannot have that without a mind. The far left is equally whacky. Birth is a relative thing that is caused by inducement; not competion (obviously) of development of a fetus. Its fairly clear that a fetus one day before delivery at 9 months is as much a human being as a fetus at delivery.

Both sides are on ideological blinders and their slogans indicate it as does their inability to even consider some sort of compromise. The inability to compromise on an issue with few clear cut parameters is in itself and indication of extremism.

The problem for the far left folks is that the far right has gotten smarter, better, faster�and will eventually win. They have stopped fighting the battles that are not so obvious. There are for instances few pushes to outright ban abortion. But they know that banning third term ones is a political winner�and winning gives them credibility to win some more.

Robert

Posted by: rocket at January 23, 2005 08:23 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Posted by susan at January 23, 2005 07:26 PM

Hi, Susan! I don't know anything more than you do about the opening of the DFA DC offices. A bunch of us from VA emailed each other about this after the blog post went up, since there certainly are many local DFA folks who would have welcomed the opportunity to apply for jobs there before it was staffed up. I'd definitely like to hear more about it.

As for moving the DNC headquarters outside DC, that'll never happen, no matter who is Chair. Dean is all about giving more resources to each state, but the DNC just opened a huge new headquarters in DC this year. And it is the logical location for the HQ of the national party, since it's the nation's capital and the seat of the federal government. But I see Dean as someone who, by making the state parties stronger, would spread power around the country, not hoard it inside the Beltway. Regardless of where the HQ is located, he said he's going to spend time traveling all around the country, etc.

I think the speculation about the DC offices right now is wondering whether they're temporary, to assist with the chair race, or whether they will be permanent. I suspect if Dean gets the chair position, it will be convenient for him if DFA keeps a small DC office so that he can stay involved if his schedule permits.

Posted by: Maura*in*VA at January 23, 2005 08:25 PM | Link
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I really feel an urge to respond to the anti-church sentiment I keep reading here, but I guess I need to let it go this time, so that I can get some other things done.

Click for Social Security: There Is No Crisis. You can listen to the ads they have put together and vote on the one you prefer. There is also a place to donate so that you can help get the ads on the air, as well as other "take action" links. I'm going to go add the link to some of my sites and blogs.

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 08:26 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Do you ever fly? Or drive a car?

Is that trust or what?
Posted by sunlight at January 23, 2005 08:08 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's a sort of trust but verify situation. You trust that the government is doing it's job by checking the airplanes and the cars, and issuing proficiency licenses to the operators thereof. That, with a little prayer. . . .

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:28 PM | Link
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Posted by Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 08:26 PM


Not intending to offend, apologies. I was really thinking more about Dobson and hoping that by a trend in lower attendance in general, his brand of Christianity attracts fewer listeners.

I know there are many good christian voices. They sure seem to get drowned out by the Dobsons of the world, though.

Peace.

Posted by: HopeCat at January 23, 2005 08:32 PM | Link
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I say we substitute church meetings with MeetUps!

With the Good Reverend Dean. Or was that irreverent dean?

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 08:35 PM | Link
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Patricia Taylor and rocket, I have to disagree with both of you to some point. Here are my points:

1) The photos are not "graphic" unless you have never seen a picture of a dead person at all. The pictures I saw recently of a dog munching on a corpse, now that was graphic.

2) Clearly, the man was dragged from his earlier position against the wall, by the soldiers.

3) No way to tell from the pictures if he was a "civilian" or an "insurgent"-- and in Iraq, most so-called "insurgents" are probably civilians anyway, fighting in what they see as desperate defense of their country against powerful invaders.

4) He could have been shot in the chest, there would not be blood showing on his black shirt at the distance these pics were taken.

5) No pic actually shows the soldiers killing the prisoner. There is no "smoking gun" pic like the one of the South Vietnamese officer shooting the Viet Cong prisoner through the head.

6) But there is one obvious point I have to make that shows that Something Is Very Wrong Here--
In the first picture, the prisoner is alive and obviously bound. In the next pictures he is evidently dead. IT IS AGAINST GENEVA CONVENTION TO KILL RESTRAINED AND UNARMED PRISONERS.
So whether he was civilian or insurgent or whatever, IF it was those soldiers who killed him, THEY VIOLATED THE GENEVA CONVENTION AND THE LAWS OF WAR. Damn fools.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:35 PM | Link
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(I believe that potato chips was the most under-reported item)

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 08:36 PM | Link
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I just added the "There Is No Crisis" graphical link to my Religious Left blog. Click.

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 08:37 PM | Link
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Dobson would be a criminal in Maine.

He's a batterer.

Clicky.

It isn't about "parenting."

Posted by: Mainefem at January 23, 2005 08:41 PM | Link
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So it's Eagles/Patriots then.

What's the blogs pick?

The stock market will probably go sideways til the NFC indicator.

I worry about owning stock in any corporation that is backing the bushco social security scam because it means they know the only way their stock goes higher is with atificial stimulus.

Watch who backs Bush and if you own those stocks walk quietly to the exit.

It's like afew years back if Arthur Anderson was the accountant the books were probably cooked.

anybody doubt if Enron was still around they wouldn't be backing the scam

Posted by: Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 08:41 PM | Link
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I don't find bush, dean or hitler charismatic.

Posted by sunlight at January 23, 2005 08:22 PM

You may not, and I may not (regarding bush and hitler) but others have and do.

What a creepy thing to put dean's name sandwiched in between bush and hitler.

On the other hand, Could it be that he's the only thing keeping the one from merging or morphing into the other?

Hmmmm....on several regards.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:43 PM | Link
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Posted by Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:35 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you have a link to the dog picture? Robert has been denying that any such thing could happen.

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:43 PM | Link
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Renee, I don't know which makes me sadder: how much some people hate church or how far removed so many churches are from what their mission is supposed to be.

While it makes me flinch to read some of the posts, I also haven't attended church regularly in years. Still looking for a home-based group that isn't dominated by some clergy wannabe.

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 08:44 PM | Link
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Robert

Your posts about Iowa are getting better.

Doesn't matter much if Dean is the Chair.

Posted by: Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 08:47 PM | Link
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What I like about "progressive" is that it doesn't really fit on the linear political spectrum (radical - liberal - moderate - conservative - reactionary).

Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:20 PM
-------------------------

Tim, that is exactly correct. It seems like most people have forgotten completely about the "reactionary" moniker at all, too, and that is what W and his cronies are pushing. I am so tired of the whole demonizing of liberals that progressive is much better: "Forward-thinking".

Posted by: Pyewacket at January 23, 2005 08:47 PM | Link
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Posted by Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:35 PM

I called the man a civilian because he was not in uniform and therefore unidentifiable as an enemy combatant or a soldier, to my eye.

I may be weak, but photographs of bound men, kneeling in the rubble of a destroyed building, followed by the images that followed, are still graphic to me.

One man's insurgent is another woman's civilian, or perhaps a man defending his home (or his business, his mosque, his family) against an armed invader.

We can't know what his story was, like the parents in the car the other night.

We can worry, however, at the attitude of the soldiers exhibited in the Abu Ghraib photgraphs and in the final photograph in this series.

Too casual and smiling, IMO.

That was my main point.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:47 PM | Link
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typo - sorry

still graphic to me = still too graphic for me

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:48 PM | Link
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Dog eating corpse:

http://www.notinourname.net/war/dogs-9dec04.htm

WARNING: This IS graphic and disgusting.

I am off onto the web now to try to find out who "AFP" are.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:48 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I worry about owning stock in any corporation that is backing the bushco social security scam because it means they know the only way their stock goes higher is with atificial stimulus.


Phil, I'd been thinking the same thing. Good catch!

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:48 PM | Link
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Story, photo on dog, corpse, Fallujah...

Click.

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 08:50 PM | Link
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Patricia:

That's fine. In fact it would be a sad, sad thing if you *didn't* find the pictures appalling.

I think I have been numbed a great deal to (most) images of carnage and death, just by years of going to violent action movies. Or by reading the news. Not sure which.

So when *I* say a picture is "graphic", you bettah believe it is BAD. So think twice about going to look at the corpse/dog one.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:51 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

Not so fast, Phil!

Pittsburgh still has a slim chance. I sure wish Maddox was playing tonight though.

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 08:51 PM | Link
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Posted by Tim in Augusta GA at January 23, 2005 04:20 PM

Posted by Pyewacket at January 23, 2005 08:47 PM


"Well, they're going to call us every name in the book, and that's what they've done for a long time."

Howard Dean

It isn't what they say you are, or what you say you are, it's what you DO that counts.

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:52 PM | Link
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Puddle, Patricia, Mainefem and other wonderful critical readers who happen to be here right now...

If any of you have a few minutes, could you please click in to the piece I just worked up (based on the email alert I posted above) about the Birth Control Protection Act that's being voted on in Virginia tomorrow?

The feedback I got on the miscarriage bill really helped me to tighten it up, and I know this one isn't nearly as good as that one, but I'm under some time constraints since the vote is tomorrow!

Any feedback you can provide would be welcome. If you have a chance to read and comment, please clicky!

Posted by: Maura*in*VA at January 23, 2005 08:52 PM | Link
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Just wanted to note that Dr. William Sears is the "anti-Dobson" as far as Christian parenting advice goes. (Click)

Posted by: Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 08:53 PM | Link
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Posted by Mainefem at January 23, 2005 08:41 PM

James Dobson would be, and is, a criminal anywhere in this country.

Posted by: nordy at January 23, 2005 08:53 PM | Link
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So it's Eagles/Patriots then.

Posted by Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 08:41 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, ah, eh, er... wouldn't count the Steelers out yet. They just scored & it's 31-17 & it's still 3rd quarter.

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 08:53 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

The corpse/dog picture's photographer shares his thoughts on how to do well as an embedded reporter. Interesting, and savvy-sounding.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:53 PM | Link
----------------------------------  

I am off onto the web now to try to find out who "AFP" are.

Posted by Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:48 PM

AFP = l'Agence France-Presse (AFP)

Posted by: Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:54 PM | Link
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Posted by Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:48 PM
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Thank you.

Posted by: puddleriver*in*WV at January 23, 2005 08:55 PM | Link
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Could also be this group --- AFP

AFP is the world's oldest established news agency, founded in 1835 by Charles-Louis Havas, the father of global journalism.

Today, the agency continues to expand its operations worldwide, reaching thousands of subscribers (radios, TVs, newspapers, companies) from its main headquarters in Paris and regional centers in Washington, Hong Kong, Nicosia and Montevideo. All share the same goal: to guarantee a top quality international service tailored for the specific needs of clients in each region

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 08:57 PM | Link
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Maura:

Looks pretty good to me.

It occurs to me reading the piece that the Catholic See's official position is that life begins at conception, thus they would consider the prevention of implantation to be "abortion". Heck, they even consider barrier methods sinful, so go figure. When rocket talks about "extreme views", well, this is one of them-- and it is held by a large, powerful, highly-funded multinational organization.

Bleep all their rhetoric about 'sin'. It is obviously really an effort to control women by enslaving us to our wombs.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 08:58 PM | Link
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Maura, very interesting.

I'd get this sentence "above the fold" (jump):

"Devolites-Davis used some of the definitions of contraception compiled on Dictionary.com to further blur the line between abortion and contraception."

Posted by: volneysimmons*visit*DFA*Talent*B at January 23, 2005 08:59 PM | Link
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Just checking to see if there were any Steeler fans in the crowd and doing a little trash talking.

Posted by: Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 09:01 PM | Link
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It isn't what they say you are, or what you say you are, it's what you DO that counts.

Posted by Patricia*Taylor at January 23, 2005 08:52 PM
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Of course that is true, ideally. But words are powerful and people are led by them, labels and all. Your best bet is to come up with your own label before the enemy does, because be assured that they will label you and people will believe it.

Some games are so old they won't change even if we want them to. Premptive politics is what has been seriously lacking from the Dem party for years.

Posted by: Pyewacket at January 23, 2005 09:01 PM | Link
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WARNING: This IS graphic and disgusting.

Dean nut. I was appalled by the next to the last paragraph where the men found killing the animals far more disgusting than killing the humans they had killed. "This is hard on these guys, especially killing the dogs." I won't put in the entire quote.

Posted by: Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 09:01 PM | Link
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Picture of the photographer, and the blurb seems to indicate pretty strongly that "AFP" is the same as "l'Agence France Presse".

I wish the credit on the original 'dogs' story had said "Agence France Presse", I remember many very moving pictures of theirs from 9/11; in fact that's where I first heard of them.

Sounds like the photographer is on the up-and-up.

Which brings me down to rocket's very valid question earlier:

Muslims consider dogs to be unclean. So why would there be dogs anywhere around a muslim town (Fallujah)??

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 09:02 PM | Link
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Posted by Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 09:01 PM

I like the Steelers & if you've been watching, the Steelers are on the 4 yd line with score being 31-17 & 4th qtr just starting... I wouldn't rule them out yet.

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 09:03 PM | Link
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Just wanted to note that Dr. William Sears is the "anti-Dobson" as far as Christian parenting advice goes. (Click)

Posted by Renee*in*Ohio at January 23, 2005 08:53 PM
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Good to know you're a fan of Dr. Sears' too, Renee!

Posted by: Pyewacket at January 23, 2005 09:03 PM | Link
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Now it's 31-20... can't rule out Steelers yet!

Posted by: Karen*in*MI at January 23, 2005 09:05 PM | Link
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Barbara*in*Seattle at January 23, 2005 09:01 PM
re the 'poor soldiers upset at killing the dogs'--

You and me both!!!

Which is why I wrote the following, when I forwarded this article around to my email list earlier:

"Can We Please Turn The Bush Administration Over To The World Court?

In Muslim tradition, the bodies of the dead must be buried on the same day they die. Not only that, but dogs are considered unclean (like pigs).
This must be as much (or more) of an absolute atrocity to the Iraqis as it is to me.

...

Whaat??? You mean it's easier for them to kill people than to kill the dogs that are eating their dead bodies afterwards????
Truly, the Iraqis must think us hell-spawn."

That and we keep pet pigs, eat pork, both eat and wipe our bums with the right hand, the list goes on and on.

And then we butcher women and children with our bombs or supply the people who do.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 09:05 PM | Link
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hey' guys there's a new thread, but it's BELOW This one, haven't figured out why though. Come on over and investigate.

Posted by: Vicki upstate Ny at January 23, 2005 09:06 PM | Link
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Excellent job on the site, Maura in VA. I thought it was clear, easy to read and easy to navigate.

Has it really come to this? Defending contraception?

I loathe people who refuse to compromise or cooperate. During Gingrich's Contract on America days, he was quoted as saying, he was "willing to cooperate, but not compromise" with the Democrats.

So, effectively, he was saying it was the regressives' way, or the highway. And that is the ay it has been for the past 25 years...

Posted by: Sleepless in Seattle at January 23, 2005 09:09 PM | Link
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The game did get interesting I'll be back later.

I had to make sure I got a anti bushco insecurity scam dig in on this thread as I have a streak going.

Posted by: Phil*from*Iowa. at January 23, 2005 09:10 PM | Link
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And now I finally get to Dip$#it Dobson and his moronic encounter with his little yap-dog.

For one, little yap-dogs can be pretty mean beasts. I wouldn't call it "helpless", more like "absurdly outweighed."

For two, anybody whose self-respect is so low that he has to establish dominance over a 12-pound dog is, well, he has a REAL self-image problem.

Defiance from such a ridiculously small animal is beneath notice, really-- just grab a towel off the rack, make a swift doggie-burrito with it, and tote ye doggie out to its "bedroom" thereby, demonstrating in a painless but nevertheless crystal clear manner the utter absurdity of its attitude.

I bet if an ant flipped him the bird he would go ballistic over it. Such a fool.

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 09:10 PM | Link
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Vicky Upstate:

Your browser must be acting wacky. The new thread shows normally above this one.

And with that,

>>>>>> NEW THREAD <<<<<<

Posted by: Dean^Nut_in_Sandy^Eigo at January 23, 2005 09:12 PM | Link
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Shan wrote: No...it must be because he's a warlock that has put a spell on all of us. Ridiculous!

Ridiculous, yeah. If anyone bothers to learn what the word warlock means, they will know that Howard Dean is most definately NOT a warlock, even though it is a Scots word.

For those of you with not enough time to check and see what it means; it means this: an oath breaker. Makes one think of a certain group of individuals who spend time in a big house on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington D.C. doesn't it?

Posted by: Kayla_Texas at January 23, 2005 10:11 PM | Link
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