no ... really salvador dali
born 11 May 1904 in Figueras, Catalonia, Spain
dance like it hurts, love like you need the money, work when people are watching
Corporal Punishment

The reason I want to revisit the issue of corporal punishment is I'm finally starting to get written feedback on this issue from my students. They send me their responses by email and I post them as comments. The things that I thought were most interesting about the previous thread were the remarks made by real Koreans.

I should explain about the age Korea, they count a person's age from the time of conception and they advance a year on the lunar new year so there can be up to two years difference in a person's korean age and american age. I should also explain that knowing I'm going to be referring my students here is why I removed my last three blogs.

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Normally, I try to be as unbiased as possible. I learned about bias in Mr. Fong’s journalism class back at Bancroft Jr. High and I’m just an unbiased, unprejudiced reporter of information; however, something happened this week that I found astounding. When I first heard it, my jaw dropped and I was totally shocked. Teachers are allowed to hit the kids here and I don’t mean spanking, I mean they carry around a big stick and if one of the students gets out of line they hit them. As I was attempting to catch myself from jumping into, “In the U.S. that’s considered totally illegal and we’re right and you’re wrong” mode, it occurred to me that I have no objection to a parent spanking a child if it is not done in anger and there is a really good reason. Of course I can only remember three times that I’ve spanked my own kid. I don’t spank my kid except in extreme circumstances like he runs in front of a fast moving car after being told to stay on the sidewalk. Also, in my philosophy the window of time for spanking is very small (maybe from 4 years to 7 years old) as other forms of consequences are more effective than spanking especially when a child enters the concrete operations stage of development. Still, I have talked to some of the kids about it in disbelief and yes; they have few restraints as far as child abuse goes here. I find this shocking, deplorable and reprehensible. Am I being culturally biased?

by skywalker on 03·16·02 at 02:18 AM


i agree...this is deplorable. i don't have any kids, so i don't have any experience with the spanking/discipline axis...i would never, ever consider spanking any of the children that i babysit for many reasons--the top reason being that i feel that that is a decision for the parents to make and carry out.
i do volunteer for a youth organization and when i go speak in schools part of the program is teaching the children where spanking ends and abuse begins---anything that leaves a mark or any blow to any part of their body that is not their bottom. this is the law in oklahoma.
but everyday i see people---out in public , spank, yank and snatch their kids. in general i treat my dog with more gently and with more respect than most of these people treat their children.

nope, skywalker, i don't agree with how they treat kids or dogs there in korea. and lots of times in the u.s. too.

by undertoad at March 16, 2002 05:53 AM · link it

I'm with undertoad here... spanking too often is thinly veiled repressed anger welling up, and even if it isn't, it can still lead to abuse. When a parent strikes their child, it is the ultimate reproach to the kid. What we consider a slap on the wrist kids may consider a bodyslam to their feelings and trust.

by ethereal at March 16, 2002 07:33 AM · link it

i too am appalled by the whole "teachers carrying sticks thing" and i know it does lasting damage because i hear the (comparatively mild) tales of chris's catholic school upbringing, and getting whacked by a teacher does leave you with issues.

now, as for spanking -- my son went through a phase from ages 3-4 where he would get really hyper and not listen to anything. and he would be acting out in ways that were completely unacceptable. the ONLY things that would snap him out of it were if he would get hurt doing the things he was doing, or a spanking. it's the only thing that would get his attention.

but that is a totally personal matter, not one for anyone but mom and dad to decide. spankings would be a way of stopping him from behaving in ways that could really get him hurt. (incedentally, he has outgrown that phase).

are there international children's rights groups? like amnesty international jr.? hmm. sounds like the Korean kids could use some help.

and maybe it's why the poor things have that work ethic that leaves them almost no childhood, as in the western concept of childhood playfulness, as opposed to work, work, work.

by kd at March 16, 2002 09:01 AM · link it

I don't know, I bet kids don't go around getting knocked up at 12, shooting schools up at 12, or dropping out at 16 in Korea. I agree, corporal punishment is often a symptom of a problem with a parent rather than the child. But school is a structured environment, where I'm sure they have rules about what is and what isn't punishable by the big stick. I imagine few kids actually get hit, and the fear of it alone is enough to keep a lot of kids in line.

by mg at March 16, 2002 02:45 PM · link it

Hello. I am Jay. I am a student in Korea and Sky is my English teacher. The teachers don't "hit" with a fist, they punish. They are not allowed to hit with their hand and not all teachers punish the students. One does by carrying a hocky stick. He makes you bend over and hits you very strong. We call it stick of love. Some parents want the teachers to punish so they give the teachers sticks. Also, teachers don't hit in elementary school...only middle and high school. Usually if a teacher uses a stick they strike the student's hand or make them bend over and give a swat. The students are used to this.

by jay at March 16, 2002 11:30 PM · link it

jay. i don't know what to say. but it sounds like sky is trying to do things differently.

let's all hope for the best.

by kd at March 16, 2002 11:38 PM · link it

Hi kd. Jay is an 18 year old university student who I tutor on Sundays. I typed the comment (he's not used to an english keyboard) but they were his words. It was almost as if he was defending the practice...kind of odd...especially the "stick of love" bit. I got quite a chuckle over the amnisty international jr. remark. How about amnisty pee wee?

by sky at March 17, 2002 01:26 AM · link it

i was disturbed by the way he seemed to think it was a good thing for kids to get hit with sticks in school. in bygone days, the children are seen and not heard days, children had no voice, they did not have rights (either did wives, really, you know that rule of thumb meant you couldn't hit the mrs. with a stick thicker than your thumb). and at the time it was probably widely accepted by the people who were on the wrong end of the stick. they probably agreed about being "kept in line". it was only a few visionaries saying, hey, look, this is wrong, who started the movement towards todays (western) standards of classifying beating women and children as abuse.

i know there is the cultural difference. i don't know that there's too much that can be done. but i wasn't kidding with the quip about amnesty int'l. there must be international agencies (likely western-based) that fight for children's rights.

after all, you're in the same neck of the international woods that still has atrocious child labor laws, nike sweatshops, all that.

by kd at March 17, 2002 09:20 PM · link it

I'm completely against corporal punishment, but then again I don't have children of my own. From 1981 until 1986, I was in elementary school in South Georgia, USA. Corporal punishment was imposed with a paddle on the rearend. This was done on a daily basis. Most of the time, the paddlings were moderate, but sometimes I witnessed excessive beatings, usually on the black kids. School paddling did not reduced crime in Georgia. I don't think it's done anymore though, but I haven't lived there since I was 10.

by mae at March 18, 2002 08:58 AM · link it

"School paddling did not reduced crime in Georgia."
Sorry that wasn't clarified. That was a response to mg. Paddling also did not stop teen pregnancy or drop out rates. I don't know about the pregnancy rate, but Georgia, I believe, has the highest drop out rate in the country, even though, with the lottery now instituted, it has some of the most money in the educational system.

by mae at March 18, 2002 09:10 AM · link it

Ok here is my "two cents" on spanking or spanking at school even. First of all, it is a finality that violence breeds violence. Having said that though I will not say that all spanking is wrong. If the spanking was issued after all of the rules were established and the child knew and understood the rules then the spanking (meaning paddled bottom) is and can be sufficient deterrent from further unaccaptable actions or from others doing as such. There is a fine line between beating and spanking and that fine line really does have to do with love. When you love your child and they have been told not to just run out into the street without looking, yet consistantly performs this act, which would be worse? Spanking them for not only disobeying but also to make them understand this importance, take them to a morgue where they can view ghastly photos or bodies of dead people who have been hit or let them do as they want and either get hit or end up worse, an adult without any sort of respect for rules? Spanking, happens to be much like locks on doors, banks, cars and so on. The locks are not used to keep crooked individuals out of the contents inside, they are used to keep the honest individuals - honest. Spanking should never be used as a threat but as an act of love. I do somewhat agree with Jay in that this "stick" is the "stick of love" only because he understands and values those rules with which ha has had to live by. Rules (i.e. laws) are only as good as they are punishable and that punishment being carried out. With a lawless society we have chaos and then some. I think though that these teachers could make more of an impression on thier students if they punished a bit more to reality rather than say personal feelings. It is a bit much, that is my opinion as well, but to have none would be simply so American! We are seeing the results of "No spanking". Those results are that we are scuttling to build more prisons to fill the need!

by Pristine at March 18, 2002 01:26 PM · link it

Hi pristine. Being ever the comic, today I had great fun with the samurai sword pretending to beat my students complete with the eye yeai sounds one would normally hear from a marshal arts master my sword stopping just short of their hands. We were laughing and making fun of the practice but it bothered me a little that the students are so accustomed to the ritual that they all laid their hands open and together (like assume the posture) consistently with the dawning realization that they have to do this for real sometimes. You addressed the fundamental problem I have with the practice and that is that violence begets violence. More Korean input would be helpful here and I am trying to get my students (they’re kind of bashful) to comment.

by sky at March 19, 2002 06:45 AM · link it

Yes sky violence will breed only violence but that is the difference between a beating and a "spanking". No I cant say that I agree with many cultures and what they practice but it is true that in many other countries they do not have the same problems with their youth as America does. Sad really, that spanking has to be part of a child's education.

I have to add what is more sad even is that there are young people here in the U.S. who would "pop a cap in you" without a thought of the life they are taking! How so many of them look at life as simply nothing. How even many adults today do not value life and what it can be when nurtured and worked with.

A good friend once told me that the reason why America is such the hated beast that it is all has to do with the way American's live. I am certainly proud to live in America and to be an American but when I look at other countries that contain other people who will never have half of what I have yet they are happy and respect life, it makes me think about what my Grandmother once told me. You know, the more you have, the more you want, the more money you have to spend, the less value it has and the less value everything you purchase has. "The ones who can really value money and life are the ones who never seem to get it..."

Huggles sky! And Kids, since we know you are all reading we would love to at least know you. I for one would love to hear what you have to say, it is important for you guys to have a voice and it is only fair for you to have the chance to use it! Don't be shy, we don't bite, promise!


by Pristine at March 19, 2002 06:11 PM · link it

I was in a relationship a few years back trying to help raise two very intelligent and spirited boys. The younger one was five and six years old while I was his "second mom," and he was prone to occasional bouts of extreme violence - both physical and emotional. You wouldn't think a five year old could be emotionally abusive, but this kid had a keen manipulative intuition. His mother (my lover) wanted to raise her family with positive parenting, so I wanted to, too. We read books, we listened to tape courses, we had family meetings, we talked to other parents ...
But when the little one would have a fit, he would literally go out of control. Punching, kicking, biting, screaming both oscenities and threats (including trying to scream for help from strangers), telling us he wanted to kill us, and so on. We had no choice but to restrain him until he regained control; often as we tried to hold him he would land blows on us. So we decided to do back to him what he did to us (pinch or bite or whatever) - and tell him that we would only do it when he did it to us. That usually stopped that form of violence immediately.
I still don't know how I feel about it entirely. We made sure, even when he damaged us, that we didn't damage him with our blows physically, but it did seem to send the message that what he was attempting was not effective. It was hard for me to make myself do it, though - it made me want to cry to do that to him, and I couldn't even cry because we couldn't let him think that his blows HAD been effective.
This is a relatively unique case, also. The larger issue of violence enacted upon children is extremely multi-faceted. The attitude behind raising children is largely a socially-controlled thing, BTW - it's even a pretty recent and western idea that children should even have a happy childhood. If anyone is interested in hearing more about positive parenting, I can try to dig up some references - or there should be stuff to search for on the web. It's extremely idealistic stuff, and is largely ineffective when applied to older children who have already had behavior patterns set by a more traditional upbringing, but I really like what the philosophy has to say about trying to provide children with a challenging but secure environment in which not only are they loved - but they give love freely, too.

by iannau at March 20, 2002 03:28 PM · link it

iannau you are right and because of what you said, I feel a POST a'comin on! See, my own daughter was very very hard to handle to the point so that even my own mother (which should not surprise anyone) did not want anything to do with her - she was too much trouble. I think, due to all of this, I have been inspired to actually talk some about my own experiences with my sweetie.

by Pristine at March 20, 2002 05:07 PM · link it

I(Korean) also had the experienced of being beaten by my teachers during my school days. Back then, I did not care that much; I never thought of it as "violence." Basically, I agree with the educational benefits of spanking kids at school as long as teacher do not have any emotional investment in the punishment.

Compared to Western countries, Korea might seem barbaric in terms of its punishment of children. However, it is difficult to draw the line between punishment and abuse. People in Korea consider the role of a teacher to be equivalent to that of a father, an idea based in Confucianism. The judgment justifying corporal punishment depended totally on the teachers involved. Parents did not dare complain about what teachers did to their kids. Parents believed, trusted, and respected teachers (at least until early 80s), so there were no problems with teacher-initiated punishment.

As modernization has occurred, the cultural situation has very much changed. There are too many disrespectful teachers, impatient parents, and spoiled kids. Still, people's attitudes towards punishing kids at school remains evenly divided. People still believe that teachers have some rights to punish their students, but there is growing doubt about the punishment's fairness and effectiveness.

In fact, the methods used by teachers to punish are often very violent. On the other hand, many kids are not humbled and reflective about their errant behavior when confronted by mere preaching and soft spanking, things which worked in the past. Generally speaking, most punishment is not yet truly violent, but it is serious enough that we have to think about alternative solutions for Korea. These solutions might differ from Western countries' reliance on laws because of Korea's continued hierarchical-dominated culture. We have to accept the teachers' role in this hierarchy, something alien to Western countries. Unfortunately, there is no even close consensus yet in Korea. We will see where Korean schools go.

by frens at March 20, 2002 10:25 PM · link it

WOW, this has to be a record number of comments posted on one of my blogs. Having been a parent, I can totally relate to KD's experience. Sometimes you have to hit them with a 2 by 4 to get their attention...not literally but you know what I mean. Also, there was this moment when that old cliché "this is going to hurt me more than you" was fully internalized by me. It really did hurt to spank Delane (my son) even though it was like, “this is better than getting killed by a fast moving 4,500 lb object”. Still, what has been described to me by the Korean children most Westerners would classify as violence and abuse. I don’t think it’s right even though the initial shock was probably more due to the fact that I have had to carry a one million dollar professional mal practice insurance to teach in the U.S. just in case a student accuses you of abuse for most of my career. I graduated from college in 1989 and entered the teaching profession in 1990 so my perspective is one in which shock is the reaction at the very idea of striking a student. Frens is a friend of mine who did me a favor by posting his comment.

by SKY at March 21, 2002 04:55 AM · link it

I have a friend who teaches here in Dallas at an alternative school. These are students who have either been in jail, have children and quit school or have been expelled from regular school for what is normally a pattern of violence towards teachers and other students. One day, he is a basketball coach, well one day he was coaching a practice game and this one very troubled young man who always had to lash out at someone and try to start a fight on the court had finally gone too far, he put his hand on his shoulder and with little force, MOVED him off of the court and proceeded to tell him he was finally off this team! There were maybe fifty people that saw him do this including parents and teachers. The next day this kid who had spent time in jail as a violent offender, came to the school with his parents and a police officer to file charges on the coach for "touching" him. Actually HURTING him! *the other boy who he had started his final crap with ended up going to the hospital due to this kids violence on the court.*

In the end, my friend also being a Dallas cop, did not get into any trouble but this kid and his parents actually tried to sue him in civil court for damages done to him! Yes, things have certainly changed in American schools, and with the way the American people see things. It is just too bad that there cannot be some sort of medium in all of this. Until parents in America stop looking to the school to raise their children and they start taking responsibility for their children and their children's actions, things will not grow any better...

by Pristine at March 21, 2002 05:23 PM · link it

I think you guys are being very ethnocentric and self-righteous. I have lived in South Korea for quite sometime now, and have tought in Korean Schools. You wouldn't believe how well educated their kids are. They put Americans to shame, and I really mean it. The Korean education system is FANTASTIC (until the end of Highschool). And now, they have filled their schools full of high tech computer gadgets. Every classroom is connected to the internet, and so on. I have also taught in Canada, and I have told my fellow teachers in this Country that the Koreans are way better than us as far as education goes. I speak Korean, so I am able to notice this. In fact, I have discussed some of the most complex historical and scientific issues with plumbers and carpenters -- people who in Canada are often educated very well only in their own trade. There are no discipline problems in Korean schools, so the teachers can teach exactly as they want, and the kids listen quietly and work very hard to learn as much as they can. All Koreans genuinely respect learning and really look up to teachers who can provide them with it. They also (for the most part) hate the other students who try to stop them from learning -- like talking during class and so on. In general, Koreans support corporal punishment to achieve this very harmonious, and peaceful learning environment. Parents also support it to make their kids study. Now, if parents don't want their kids to learn in this way because they think their kids can't study so hard or can't keep still or quiet, they can have their kids go to "lower level" schools where the discipline is more lax and the hours of study greatly reduced. Believe me, Korean teachers are not sadists (I know, because I have alot of good friends who are Korean teachers). They simply know that without fear/respect for their teacher, kids become rowdy, rude and lazy. We in North America have raised our kids to be arrogant, rude and without any kind of respect for authority. We have created a genuinely "free" society where we can do what we want and tell anyone to f*** off if we feel like it. This is not the kind of society Koreans want; in fact they fear this kind of stressful society. They want a harmonious, comfortable society where everyone gets along, knows their place, and cooperates both with authority and with those around them. Spanking takes away arrogance and makes the teacher the person to fear/respect instead of the big bully kid who listens to rap music, who walks silly wearing a gang-coloured bandana and who smokes drugs. Who would you rather have your kids fear and respect? I personally favour the Korean way, and I have seen how effective it is. Taking a few swats on the butt or the palms evey few weeks at school is infinitely better than wasting your time in a class of loud, noisy kids who don't give a damn about learning and who make you scared that they might beat you up and take your lunch money, because you know the teachers can't protect you.
If there weren't so many wakos on the web, I wouldn't mind giving my full name and leaving a way to contact me to discuss this and other things I liked about the Korean educational system, but because of the dangers involved I won't. However, I state that the above information is true and that I have made my views known to people who have discussed Korean education with me.
Another thing you guys would probably think is inhumane is that Korean teachers publicly post the students' marks after each test and report card, with their names in order from top mark to bottom. You will think this takes away the kids' self esteem, leading him/her to suicide or something. Korean kids see it as a big reason to try hard at school -- so they don't look stupid in front of their friends.
With these kinds of things, Korean teachers are able to be very kind in the classroom. They rarely yell, indeed they rarely have to raise their voice. They feel almost no stress at their jobs (besides the long hours) and are able to devote all their energies to helping kids learn as much as possible. When I was teaching in Korea (and yes, I stubbornly used Canadian instead of Korean teaching methods), I reminded them of how lucky they were to receive such a good education in such good schools.
The problem in Korean education happens when they get to University. There are so many universities in Korea, and many of them I might call 'phony'. They just want to make money by attracting students to programs that are impossible to fail. So in many cases Koreans stop learning when they get to University. However, the state-funded Universities and a few others are just as demanding as many of our good North American Universities. They are very selective in their admissions and demanding in their expectations. Unfortunately, there are not enough of these Universities to go around, and the nation suffers as a result. However, quite a number of students are able to study (and be very successful I might add) at our North American Universities. Remember how well educated these kids are when they are able to come to America and complete their B.A. degrees in English which is to them a foreign language! Why don't you try that? (Why don't I try that!?) It's damn hard to do!
Thanks for read this much of my post. I'll leave you with a final thought:
In Korea, the kids are ready to put out their hands to get hit by you;
In America, the kids are ready to put up their hands to beat the crap out of you.
I think Americans want their kids to grow up to be tough scrappers ready to take up the "challenges of the wilderness, attacks of the Indians, to fight for what they think is right, etc etc", and sparing the rod achieves this. Koreans, on the other hand want their kids to grow up as peaceful, friendly, law-abiding, authority-fearing citizens, helping each other and being quick to ostracize or punish those people who disrupt society, and spanking ahieves that.
I am one of the very few foreigners who has been able to become fully integrated into Korean society. So I am not speaking from opinion; I am speaking from experience.

by CM at October 19, 2002 01:16 AM · link it

I am currently teaching ESL to children at a school in Seoul. The head teacher, from what students told me, thinks it is "strange" that I do not hit students. After hearing this comment from them I have made it a point to try to communicate the idea that abuse is wrong and that it should be reported.
I read one webpage that stated that Korean teachers think it is necessary to maintain discipline in a classroom. It is not. More interesting activities in class, more varied activities and showing a real desire for your students to succeed will go a long way in reducing problems in the classroom.
The teaching methodology used in Korea is absolutely archaic.

by Scott O'Brady at November 28, 2002 09:20 PM · link it

Hi.My name is Jun and I'm from south Korean....Well,I don't actually know how is the situatio in korea, cuz I live in Moscow, Russia and I have been here for 7 years....I'm 12//// I 've never been to korean school....well, it sounds HORRIBLE!

by JuN at April 15, 2003 11:48 PM · link it

Russian schools are great. I live in St. Petersburg, I'm Russian. The cp in our schools was outlawed in 1917. We do NOT have detention, lines to write, and other humilating forms of punishment that are used in other countires.
In our schools our teachers are our friends who treat kids very personally, and for me my school was like my second home, indeed.
I cannot imagine any of my teachers to raise a hand on a kid. Actually I doubt any of our kids would accept it. I would fight back, I know. I respect myself too much to bend over anybody.

Those who would not fight back would simply ran away.

CM's post is pathetic. These are words of a slave, not a free person.

No one should be humilated, nowhere, never.

You know what is the main rule in Russian school? Respect. Treat other people as you want them to treat you. Before doing something to somebody think whether you would like to be on the place of this somebody. Help those who are weaker than you. Never offend those who are weaker. Main and very simple principles. They are addressed to the best that you have inside you, not to your survival instints and fear of pain.

In Russian school teachers take for granted you are a good person, maybe even better than you really is, than you feel yourself, so if you do something bad, they simply say, "I never thought you could do that, it's shameful, never thought you could fall that low."

It works much better that any of sticks and paddles CM is so fond of. Because these words appeal to you heart and brain, not to your buttocks.

Should I mention we do NOT have any serious cases of violence at schools? Kids do not shoot each other, do not bring guns at school, etc.

CP does not reduce any risk of school violence, it brings it. I was a very good student, because I respected my teachers, because I liked my school, because I liked studying, as most kids btw. It's adults' fault they chose the most boring way to teach them: with sticks and threats. School is FUN. Real school with real teachers, with professionals. School must be fun. Studying is interesting.

I have an online friend, she spent 6 years in Korea (she is Korean American), got beaten at school for: wrong haircut (they used to measure the lenght of the hair with a ruler), white socks with a white design on them (school socks were supposed to be plain white), for looking the "teacher" into the eyes (it means disrespect), for putting hands into the pockets, for wearing a coat of the color her "teacher" didn't like. Several times it happened that all her class got beaten when one of the kids happened to break a window or commit other serious "crime" of the kind. Clear the culprits didn't own their fault. If they have done it, they would have beaten much more severe, and would have been made to pay for the damage. Here, in Russia, if you break a window, you only are supposed to put it back: you or your parents your problem, but you broke it, you must fix it. In Korea, the student would get beaten at school, very likely at home, too, PLUS he would pay for a new window. Three punishments for one crime. No wonder they never confess. This system raises up slaves and cowards, not people who are responsable for their actions.

I never hid when I did something wrong, because I knew I could fix what I did, could correct it. No one never in my life touched me neither with a finger nor with any implement for beating.

Kids are people, they have same pride, same feeling of shame as any person do, quite often even more. Kids should be treated as people, because they ARE people, from the moment of their birth.

"Stick" and "love" are opposite thing. Beating never shows love, it's only humilation and showing off power on people who are dependant on you. I only can agree on mild spanking in the very short period between 2 and 4 maybe, though it's also very personal. Many kids at the age of 4 feel as individuals already, and to hit means a personal insult. I know this, I was like this myself. I very early felt I am an indivudual.

CM, you are pathetic and very out-dated. You would be a laughing stock here.

by Jule at August 30, 2003 03:04 PM · link it

Just found out I didn't fill the e-mail box. I do not expect any personal comments, doubt I would return here, so actually it's of no need.

Only leaving it because I don't want to be totally anonymous. I answer for my words.

by Jule at August 30, 2003 03:10 PM · link it

Oh, and Hi to JuN, by the way! :high fives JuN:

by Jule at August 30, 2003 03:13 PM · link it

And again, forgot to mention.

CM is very proud he could "become fully integrated into Korean society".

Well, the elder brother of my online friend (he is 24 now, she is 21) could not, maybe because he wasn't an adult, when their family moved to Korea from States. My friend was 9 then, her brother 12. You can imagine the shock the kids had at school, when they saw all this?

My friend went to elementary school, and saw her friens being beaten every day for minor things, she said the "teachers" didn't hit her then, just because she was a newcomer and didn't know the language and culture. Three years later, when she entered juniour high, they began to hit her, too. More than that, she began to get hit at home! The thing her parents never do to them in States but in Korea, her mother decided she had to follow the customs and traditions.

So, in any case my friend managed to adapt, and was more or less lucky with her "teachers"; her brother couldn't. They beat him so hard at school that he had to leave the country, three years later. Did he get hit for not being quite during classes? For tardiness? Laziness and other awful "crimes"? No, he was hit because he didn't know the language and couldn't do exactly what his "teachers" demanded from him. They cared not he just came to the country, they started beating him the day he came at school, his very first day in the country, later it turned to worse, and quite probably in high school they would have whipped him to death.

CM, do you know there were cases of kids dying from beating in Korean schools? My friend's brother could have been one of them, too, if he hadn't leave.

So - a boy of 15 had to leave his family (good thing his grandparents stayed in States) and to come back, and to study there. The family got separated, because of school beatings.

My friend returned to States too, her mother finally realized it was impossible to stay there, her father stayed.

They lived there in 1991 - 1997, so it's not an ancient history. I know this story in details, because we talked a lot with her about it. I love her, though we only meet online, and any injustice made to her made me feel really mad at her offenders. I have no respect to them, I don't accept any excuses for their behaviour, I even can't call them teachers - only "teachers". They are HIGHLY, incredibly unprofessional, it's the least of their crime. Teacher = defender. Teacher does NOT equal insulter. And yes, CM, they ARE sadists. To YOU they might be your friends, you are an adult, they would never hit you, you are free from it.

But they do not consider kids to be on the same level with them. The kids simply are not considered people there. My friend told me, when I asked why they never protest, she told me if she said a simply "no, you can't hit me" they would "drag her to the principal's office and beat within an inch of her life". These are her words. "You would be labelled as a rebellious student, and rebellious student gets beaten until he is broken" her words, when I said I would't let them touch me.

What respect are you talking about CM? It's pure fear.

I was shocked when she mentioned this for the first time. I never could imagine it can exist in our days. I actually can't believe it, but this site shows it's true.

It is shameful, it must not exist.

People like "teachers" who drive kids to the suicide, who kick them out of the country should be sued and put into jail.

It IS a crime.

by Jule at August 30, 2003 04:10 PM · link it

cp is barbaric and an imposition of power by the strong on the weak. My country Kenya banned corporal punishment in 2001, but teachers still abuse, beat and punish children in the most henious way possible here.
As a classroom teacher, education writer and advocate against cp, i have started a conflict resolution program to equip teachers in kenyan secondary schools with superior tools necessary for alternative disciplinary measures.
Anyone willing to volunteer in this, drop me a line.

by kimani at November 10, 2003 12:14 AM · link it

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died 23 January 1989

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