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Building on "Hypocrisy" and "Gorts"
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Raime Monk
Gortbuster in Training
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Joined: 17 Apr 2004
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Location: Brick, New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 5:52 pm    Post subject: Building on "Hypocrisy" and "Gorts" Reply with quote

Alright so I was just re-reading some of the topics here, specifically "Hypocrisy" and "Gorts" (<---especially what Gorticide wrote about in here)
and I arrived at this somewhat sad, depressing thought:

Has anyone else here (by that I mean any other gortbusters) experienced utter despair at our situation? I'm sure some of you have... I believe it was gorticide who spoke of how if someone gave him a car, he'd still use it, knowing full well that he shouldn't... And who can blame him? I certainly wont...I cringe and become enraged when I see a Humvee or a gigantic Ford Pickup, but I still drive a car...and even though it is a small, fuel-efficient Honda, I still have it modified for engine performance (even considering dropping a turbo into it) AND have it decked out with all sorts of disgusting, materialistic accessories (rims, lights, interior stuff, etc.)... I'm disgusted with myself, and yet I can't stop myself either!!!


Power is ADDICTIVE! Shit, I wish they made patches for this, just like nicotine patches...Somebody help ween me off of Taker ways.

That isn't to say I live a completely terrible, power-hungry lifestyle...I refuse to eat factory-farm meats, for example (although its nearly impossible in college)...and I dont litter (oh boy, big flippin' whoop)...its sad, really. I want to do more...I want to abandon this shithole. But as Gorticide pointed out, its like a web in which we tangle ourselves.



HOWEVER, there is the matter of our MINDSETS...we can still rid ourselves of the Taker mindset, despite how tangled up in the Taker web we may be in real life...This is why I love this website (why I crapped my pants the other day when I came here and the site was knocked down by hackers or something), and why I love STA...it helps us to purge our mind and spirit of the filth we are constantly bathed in in this Industrial Prison. In fact, it soothes me to realize how well I have cleansed my intellect of Taker thinking...and then I remember that there is this terrible juxtaposition between my Leaver-thoughts and my Taker-lifestyle.


And so I am still faced with this dilemma (one that only a philosopher who thinks too damn much would come up with): I am torn between wanting to tear down Takerville (i.e., destroy the mindset and bring humanity back into the fold of Mother Nature) and facing the reality that I participate in and therefore ---to some degree--- PERPETUATE Takerville.
Does anyone see what I'm saying here? I realize that I'm so tied in to Taker living that the only way to rid myself of it entirely would be through physical death (natural selection)...but I dont want to die, either..I dont want to die so that others can live simply...i want to LIVE and live simply WITH THEM...but this itself is selfish, egotistical thinking that arises out of my Taker-brainwashing. The leaver does not fear death, does not fight against death, but rather understands it as a process in the ultimate reality of the universe----change. I'm eager for Takerville to collapse...My soul BURNS to see justice done for Mother Nature...but at the same time, am I not thus desiring to see my own annihilation? I'm itching for my own utter destruction.

Note: if I dont sound coherent, dont mind me...I'm not trying to establish a clear debate or discussion...i'm just rambling and I want to know what others have to say/ramble about it too. It would help, maybe, to read "hypocrisy" and "gorts" in this forum to understand where my mad ravings came from...
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Mr Miyagi
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my feeling monk.

being caught in the tension between opposites is part of what propels one towards transcendence.

But being caught in that tension can really suck huh?

One can't expect to have all the answers right away, yet how to proceed ....?

I've posted posts much like your's before. Really heartfelt cries, and I hear you man, believe me. These are issues I've tackled, have been tackling, and somehow seem to keep re-tackling over and over again.

I like to think in terms of horizons. Before you know it a new horizon will open up and you'll have a wider and clearer view of things, and once you do... you may see, feel, think and act differently, all in one stroke. You can't really know what that way will be like because you just havnt seen the dawn of that next horizon yet. So that's why you have to work to climb the mountain, to attain to that greater scope. So patience is important.

The thing is that you never know what's just over the horizon. So I recomend staying positive if you can. And I know its a slippery slope that we sometimes fall down into. I hit those pockets of ice all the time. But what can we do but keep on climbing?
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Gorticide
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:16 pm    Post subject: I Ramble On Reply with quote

Raime Monk wrote:
... if I dont sound coherent, dont mind me...I'm not trying to establish a clear debate or discussion...i'm just rambling and I want to know what others have to say/ramble about it too. It would help, maybe, to read "hypocrisy" and "gorts" in this forum to understand where my mad ravings came from...

OK, I will ramble on a little here - not because I think I have any solutions, but because my intuition tells me we might find some peace of mind when we accept the limits of reason.

Raime Monk wrote:
I am torn between wanting to tear down Takerville (i.e., destroy the mindset and bring humanity back into the fold of Mother Nature) and facing the reality that I participate in and therefore ---to some degree--- PERPETUATE Takerville.

I want the gods to tear down Taker Prison (the global industrial civilization). I want to leave Life in the hands of the gods. Now, should my individual life expire when the IW collapses, so be it. What kind of lives have we come to lead anyway?

Before I really get started rambling, I have to admit that I am not all that comfortable with the terminology, leavers and takers. In Beyond Civilization, Daniel Quinn admits that he settles for these terms just to be able to talk about it. Likewise ...

In STA (to save), Ray wrote:
And while I still have the floor, I’d just like to mention that I don’t really like the words “takers” and “leavers”. Not only are they a bit misleading, although that’s not a problem for me, but also they just sound ugly. There has to be a better word we can use.


Now, the monk asks us, "Has anyone else here (by that I mean any other gortbusters) experienced utter despair at our situation?"

By despair, do you mean "to lose all hope"? I sometimes suspect that losing hope could be a good sign ... What is the prime assumption of modern humanism? The assumption that "all problems are soluble."

At least when we lose hope in finding a human solution to our dilemma, we are ready to prepare for the collapse of civilization, and we don't have to feel defeated. Remember:


The Aborigine wrote:
The IW's character is its fate. The momentum of our actions, as Dr. Ehrenfeld puts it, is both grave and irreversible, "whose gravity can never be exaggerated, although it is too often ignored."

We need to inform as many people as possible that the IW is going down. Like those who escaped the Twin Towers, the sooner they know, the better.


When we lose hope in Daniel Quinn's ability to help us move beyond civilization, when we lose hope in our own ability to "LEAVE it in the hands of the gods", we despair --- hmmmm .... Do we share the arrogance of the rulers of civilization? Do we believe we can actually come up with a human solution? Quinn offers tribalism as a lifeboat --- OK, that's up to the gods who will maintain the state of mind for cooperative human interaction.

The way I understand the taker/leaver terminology, Taker culture (represented by the archetypal gorts Adam and Eve and even Prometheus) takes The Life-World into its own hands. Takers are humanists who think ALL PROBLEMS ARE SOLUBLE.


J. Harmon Grahn wrote:
"The challenge today is to survive the collapse of civilization, and to pioneer a path that leads beyond civilization."

It has been further observed that the "post-civilized" tribe is the only available "lifeboat" for surviving the collapse of civilization.

The Titanic was equipped with a woefully indadequate contingent of lifeboats, in relation to her passenger manifest, and in the event, even these were lanuched only partially filled.

Today the situation is significantly different, for tribes are not physical things, like lifeboats, existing in inflexible numbers. The tribe is a formula, a pattern for cooperative human interaction, which may be duplicated in endless variety by humans of any description – provided we are able to attain an appropriate state of mind.

The "appropriate state of mind" for making use of a "tribal lifeboat" in which to escape collapsing civilization is the mentality of the culture Daniel Quinn calls the Leavers. The "state of mind" which condemns its possessors to "go down with the ship" is that of the culture of the Takers. The difference between Leavers and Takers is simple yet profound: the Takers are those who have elected to take the Law of Life into their own hands. The Leavers have chosen instead to leave the Law of Life in the hands of the gods.

What does it mean to "leave the Law of Life in the hands of the gods," or to "live in the hands of the gods?"

from In the Hands of the Gods


The Aborigine tells us, "The spiritual journey is one which originates from within. Start there. Where it takes you from there can only be toward the light. To start from without, whether culturally or intellectually, will result only in frustration. You will wind up banging on the doors of the interior self anyway, supplicating for the right to enter the self. Start with the self and all else is obviated."

Do you feel like you are "banging on the doors of the interior self, supplicating for the right to enter the self?"

I echo the Ehrenfeldian insight that the best hope for bringing to a close this terrible spate of humanistic destruction is a global economic depression which would end the arms race, multi-national exploitative industry, international agribusiness, and other deadly manifestations of bigness.

This is where I think acknowledging the limits of reason can help us.

Science and technology made reason ascendant (over our emotional system = "instincts, emotions, intuition"). Humanists (the spearhead of Taker culture) have the utmost faith in reason, and their prime assumption is that all problems are soluble. This is their religion. Emotions are held up to contempt and ridicule.

Industrial society universally and erroneously believes reason is superior to emotion, and by emotion, I most certainly mean INSTINCT. One of the great benefits of reading Tom Brown's field guides is exposure to his many insights into the innate powers within us that have clearly atrophied from lack of use. There is nothing mystical or magical about intuition or instinsts - this is our ancient emotional system. As vertebrates, we have an inborn protection that is too complex to merit a simple name. I prefer the word instincts. David Ehrenfeld chooses the word emotions. It's all the same to me. Whatever we call it, it depends on many parts of the sensory, central nervous, and endocrine systems.

The word, emotions, may be a poor choice. Ehrenfeld admits, "because emotion is in bad odor in modern society, and also it does not indicate the services provided to the organism by the complex of reactions that it represents."

Ehrenfeld wrote:
Emotions keep vertebrate animals, including humans, alert or easily alerted to hostility or friendship, and sensitive to internal bodily needs. Emotions are the mechanism that Nature has given us for fitting ourselves into our world.


While many individuals in modern society resist exposing emotions that may alienate them from society, I write as though I were to die in five minutes. I never know when I will be shuffled off to some jail cell, along with the rest of the poor devils.

Anyway, one great guide to the synthesis of reason and instinct (or "reason and emotion") is Pirsig. He uses the terminology: romantic Quality (emotion) and classic Quality (reason). You need both in order to repair a motorcycle. You have to have the "mechanic's feel" --- that is intuitive. The manual and the parts and the logic of the scientific method are necessary, but - the aim is peace of mind.

Pirsig wrote:
Peace of mind isn't at all superficial, really. It's the whole thing ... What we call the workability of the machine is just an objectification of this peace of mind. The ultimate test is always your own serenity. If you don't have this when you start and maintain it while you're working you're likely to build your personal problems right into the machine itself.

The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.


When it comes to nuclear weapons, reason is not able to come to the conclusion that nuclear weapons are wrong. Reason can't be trusted for it goes by logic alone. When it comes to nuclear weapons, we have to turn to our instincts, to our emotions. Our emotions will compel us to end the arms race, and yet we are thwarted by huge industries devoted to world domination.

I offer no solutions to our dilemma, but I can tell you how I feel about it.
The reason why people all over planet earth hate the Bush Administration is because of the arrogance of that administration and the mall-rats they serve. Who the hell do they think they are? Everyone has the right to protest the nuclear arms race, but how do we cope with our very own stomachs' dependency on the world market place? How do we cope? Listen to your emotional responses --- these reactions are much older than reason. Warn others that the Industrial World will collapse. The less faith we have in the leaders of the IW, the more fit we will be to leave it in the lap of the gods. We don't have to go down with the ship, although - I know - it seems as though we don't have much choice in the matter.
-------------------------------------------------------
Background:
1. Gorts
2. Hypocrisy
--------------------------------------------------------
If you have time, check out the poem, The Hyperborean Winter

I wrote:
When I speak, they hear themselves
When I move and exist, it is themselves they fear
In my bearing, through my own breath,
I vow to spread discontent
Let us distrust our future


Last edited by Gorticide on Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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rubbersoul
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:03 pm    Post subject: now now Reply with quote

In One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest , Kesey's hero has a bigger than life laugh. When he enters the mental ward, the narrator of the story is thrown off by McMurphy's overflowing emotions. It's the first time he's heard an actual, real life laugh in years. The last couple of scenes of the story are priceless, but in the beginning the mood is sullen. It sucks to be in that asylum. McMurphy brings the party to their door step though and livens things up. The patients begin to relearn how to have a good time, take risks, and be men again. They reinvite their own laughter into their lives and see the good in this. They're alive!

Do i hear you Monk? Hells, bells man.

On The Road has the same feel to it. This nonstop, pulsating beat trip emotional high tailed telling, which swoops across the continent like a flaming tyro up up and gone. You can actually feel this story take place. The pages turn like the miles pass in this book.

Like Carlin says, "There's a whole different now now."


Last edited by rubbersoul on Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gorticide
Gortbuster Warrior
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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Location: Monmouth County, New Jersey, USA on Turtle Island

PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:27 pm    Post subject: McMurphy's overflowing emotions Reply with quote

McMurphy's overflowing emotions were strong enough to confront the institutional stupidity of grids and schedules and organization. While the stupid authorities were able to "destroy McMurphy as a cultural entity", they were not able to erase McMurphy's spirit (his emotions) - as his Indian comrade prooved upon releasing McMurphy's spirit from the body. The Indian took in McMurphy's spirit, his overflowing emotions, and then burst out of the mental hospital and hauled ass up into the mountains of Canada ...

Note about laughter:
In the chapter of The Arrogance of Humanism called Emotions and Reason, Ehrenfeld points out that humans are the only animals that laugh, and that it has something to do with the tensions between reason and emotion.

Hey brothers, let's at least make a pact to bring our emotions with us into whatever institutions the Taker Prison wardens have in store for us ...

Don't ever let those bastards grind you down! Twisted Evil
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wildernessway_tracker
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alot of good post in this one.

My opinion is, our computer, our cars, and everthing else is a neccesary evil in this time and place. Internet and alot of other things have opened up the communication channel of getting our messages to alot of people. Dont get me wrong, i cant wait till there isn't any more of it.

In the Golden Age We may have had the ability to live in harmony with nature and each other. And had the ability to Communicate with Animals and Humans without a word and was able to experiance the energys of the earth in a meaningfullway. Some of us are experiancing some of that now once again. To those of us that are, its another Golden age dawning upon us, The ones who see life as sacred and live it within our hearts and minds daily.

My point is, it is a maddening world to alot of us. But must be experianced, its what made change in alot of us, and continues to do so. The worse it gets the more people that will start quistioning, will wonder, and then finally surrender.

In other Sections I wrote About the 4 ages of man. Plato wrote alot about them. One book I use to have wrote about them, in it the master asked the student "Are these 4 ages not akin to the great dinasty's that chart the failing history of mankind. Student reaplied "they are" master said "well, there not, or rather more then that, for each age continues still, for they where not messurements of the changing years upon this world we know, But are realms where man has sojourned before ariving here. First is called the Age of gold, because it as radient with golden light as a thought newborn from the mind of god, each age that follows is a further elaboration of that theme, thereby being three more steps which divine thought is finally conjeiled into our dense and innert matter. All together the 4 realms are like a powerfull cord that spans all that was, or is, or ever shall be.
Read more here

My point im getting too is that This site here Has alot in it about What man will experiance that will lead back to the golden age, how we arrived at this final age of Iron. Talks about how navigation was bad, it shows mens evil intent of greed because why else would he want to explore. It tells the golden age was an illiterate age that enjoys the peace of mind that may derive from a submitted intellect. Consequently, the arts of this age could just be Speech, Music, and Gesture—the visual arts and the sciences requiring the sobriety, study, and calculation of later ages. In the Golden Age, the knowledge of man is one with his vision as the manifold impressions of the world are absorbed by simplicity and trust, both of which derive from innocence. Innocence is a sacred attribute of the Golden Age (and ideally of Childhood):

that site again is Here.
Be sure to check out all the ages, expecially our age of Iron, and also the
Technology, Nostalgia Sections and ancient Text. And Expecially Plato. It happened before, it will all happen again. We'll live in harmony, then they'll be a gradual moving away untill we arive at iron age once again, where man suffors for forgetting.
There Showing that Greek Mythology may not be fiction as its once was thought, mainley from the uncovering of artifacts, ect (atlantis-plato). Man is good at forgetting, and what he dont remember, he writes of as fiction.
The more you study the more truths you find in everything
the bible talks about gods and giants, david slew one. The bible talks about Resurrection where the dead comes to life. The ages of man say the same thing, how man will be born out of the ground and live in harmony, no having children, no familys, just love for one another without the lust and greed and disharmony. Jesus also said dont give any thought to what youll eat or wear, Sounds like Golden age to me, dousn't apply to Iron age too good, but it doe's sence thats a going back to truth if you live truth.
The greatest confusion comes from us labeling things. We think differiently then those that have gone before us and invision things differiantly. So what they descripe, we may not see correctly. Therefore we pass it of as a product of the imagineation, a story, and fiction.

[1] Still geological ages are sketched by Ovid: "I have myself seen what once was solid land changed into sea; and again I have seen land made from the sea. Sea-shells have been seen lying far from the ocean, and an ancient anchor has been found on a mountain-top ..." [Metamorphoses, 15.260ff.]

[2] Later times came to believe that mankind polishes its humanity as it perfects its machinery. The miracles of science and technology made appear the poets of the past and the past itself as 'primitive' since the degree of man's evolution came to be judged by the smartness of his technical devices, despite their destructivity. The opposite view was held by the ancients, who regarded technical progress as a symptom of spiritual decay. Sailing on the wave of enthusiasm, however, the new prophets offered an even more unlikely alternative: they placed the Golden Age not in the past but in the future. So, for example, and among many others, Henri Saint Simon (1760-1825):
_________________
In Friendship there is no greater goal then the uncovering of the Spirit.
Find the thinker not the thought, behold the treasure men have sought.
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Gorticide
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:51 am    Post subject: On not demonizing gorts Reply with quote

On not demonizing gorts
---------------------------------------

Wilderness Way Tracker wrote:
The Internet and alot of other things have opened up the communication channel of getting our messages to alot of people.


except when there’s a message from the oracle like:
Quote:
phpBB : Critical Error

Could not connect to the database

Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Evil or Very Mad


Well, Wilderness, I agree that presently our computers, our cars, and everything else are necessary evils in this time and place – the colonies would collapse without their electro-mechanical life-support system; but only under the assumption that we – as a culture – are necessary. Are we necessary? These evils are not necessary because we are ultimately unnecessary.

So, starting from a more humble stance, which evils could be eliminated?
Surely we could get by without SUVs and empires.
Some things are just pure arrogance.

Some madman had the right idea with the people's car –
Dune Buggy Blues... but I digress.

I have something on my mind, and I hope it builds upon "hypocrisy and gorts".
Bear with me.

Back on June 11, 2003, in the thread, 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism, Morose Jew wrote:
Didn't the Germans label people who did not agree with them?
If I feel that the world is just fine pretty much the way it is I get labeled a Gort.

Didn't the Germans label people who did not agree with them?
So who, I ask, who are the Facists?


These words have been in the back of my mind over the last year or so. I am fascinated with psychological literature about the Shadow and how we have the tendency to project our repressed qualities onto an enemy out there outside ourselves - an enemy we have constructed from our own inner darkness, our own paranoia.

I want to relate this to when

Raime Monk wrote:
I am torn between wanting to tear down Takerville (i.e., destroy the mindset and bring humanity back into the fold of Mother Nature) and facing the reality that I participate in and therefore ---to some degree--- PERPETUATE Takerville.


Raime Monk hits on a significant feeling.

No matter how much we disgruntled denizens of the Industrial World protest, an honest look at ourselves and our relationship with the rest of the world reveals ways that we too are part of the problem. Whether one is an ambitious workaholic mall-rat or a poor devil on welfare, we are in varying degrees addicted to a standard of living maintained at the expense of the poorer people of the world - a situation that can only be perpetuated through military force. The problem of pollution includes my own consumption of resources and my personal creation of waste. Oil fuels the machines that get the Wheatena cereal into my belly. I drink water from plastic containers, and I bid the container farewell as it makes its way to landfill or creek ... Crying or Very sad

The line that separates me from the society I condemn is blurred.

In discussing evil, Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote:
If only it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and to destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?.

I may get furious when I see people in military uniforms doing the bidding of generals who are in cahoots with corporate industrialists. How could they be so dumb to have gotten into that uniform? Even more intense emotions are evoked when I witness the hubris of judges, prosecutors, and local law enforcement officials. How could they be so obtuse?

Are they so lost in arrogance that they don't give a second thought to the fact that I genuinely experience the agents of the state machinery as the bad guys? When it comes to ethics, I can't help but see myself as more spiritually evolved than cops, prosecutors, judges, soldiers, politicians, corporate executives, et cetera.

Hence, I am faced with my own hubris. This is a spiritual dilemma --- and a psychological problem. I hate the arrogance in others, but I excuse and/or ignore my own. Is this hypocrisy?

The very soldiers and cops and generals and prosecutors that I view as perpetrators of evil may be struggling to come to terms with their own experiences. Many soldiers are paralyzed by their own anguish - like so-called Nazi soldiers who committed suicide in order to escape their duty to the state, or like Israeli soldiers who rely on medicinal marijuana to cope with their guilt.

When we reflect upon the definition of a gort, do we do so with the wisdom of an Alexander Solzhenitsyn? or with the paranoia of an Adolf Hitler or an Ariel Sharon?

So, why do we use the term "gort"?

Does it "get us off the hook"?

I can't say I am all too proud of being human, and I am ashamed of being an American citizen, "white" or otherwise. I want nothing to do with Judeo-Christian traditions ...

With Emile Cioran, "I saunter to the periphery of the Race like a timorous monster, lacking the energy to claim kinship with some other band of apes."

I am not so much ashamed of my "European ancestry". I do know deep in my gut that pre-Romanized "Native Europeans" were tribal peoples. This does not excuse the imperialism and fascism and the belief in white supremacy and the arrogance that spread throughout Europe and beyond to every corner of the earth. Taker culture may have been born in the earliest civilizations of Northern Africa and in the so-called "Holy Land" of the Middle East near Africa - the birthplace of Judaism, Islam, and the Jewish religion Christianity, but when Takerville spread up into what is now called Europe, detribalizing and despiritualizing the natives of the forests, Taker culture gained momentum.

European culture is generally held in contempt for their ruler’s imperialistic policies that expanded across the planet.

British Imperialism has spread to North America ...

The invasion of the Western Hemisphere by European powers was preceded by centuries of social development that had resulted in societies in which the interests of the few had effectively become national policies, and the interests of the many were without voice in national affairs. Those of us in the United States are quite familiar with this type of society. In the midst of wealth for the few, many of us are economically driven away from the food market place.

With these things in mind, understanding that my skin condemns me to being racially profiled as a "white devil", I am subtly aware of how stupid it would be to hate the gorts ---

After all, when I fail to distinguish between reality and appearance, I am being a gort. When I categorically hate upholders of the status-quo (for being gorts), am I projecting my own gortness outward? The masses may appear greedy and stupid, but in reality, everyone has to be struggling with their own subjective experiences. Gortbusting requires honesty with ourselves. Gortbusting starts within our own minds.


In STA, the Aborigine wrote:
I will further add that that society you are looking for is inside your head and heart. One reason why you may not have found it is that you are looking for it in the material world. Guess what? The secret is that it doesn't exist in the material world until it exists inside YOU first. So...get down to work!!

Remember, the ripples in the pond start from the center and flow outward.

It becomes more difficult to hate the upholders of the status-quo when I reflect upon what compels them to behave with such thoughtless obedience. Each is alone and seemingly helpless to challenge the hierarchy from whence comes the orders they are compelled to follow.

Their addictions to their lifestyles are the chains that bind them to obedience. Taking it to this level of insight may liberate us from an "US AND THEM" mentality. If I am able to peck away at the shackles that chain me to consumerism, then surely all people are capable of such liberation.

Everyone has the capacity to disobey orders.

It is important to know our enemies; but, as individuals, we can't choose our enemies based on cues from "national leaders". I don't trust the experts.

A leader of the Hitler Youth was as much a victim of fascism as a dissident intellectual prosecuted by the State. The racist cop is as much a victim of fascism as the poor Mexican he abuses. The working poor who are striving to purchase property and security cannot help but take on the characteristics of their oppressors.

Those of us working for social change tend to view our adversaries as enemies, and the obedient working poor play a huge role in securing fortunes for interest groups which are committed for one reason or another to some form of technological and/or cultural movement - such as the SUV trend, or the cheap labor scam.

the Haudenosaunee wrote:
When we are looking for the real cultural revolutions of history, do we not find that the rise of agriculture or animal husbandry or irrigation technology was a thousand times more significant to the history of humankind than were the adventures and political fortunes of the aristocracy and rulers of European countries?


The process of civilization paralyzes whole societies and makes them unable to resist the process of colonization. It makes no difference, in the long run, that Alexander the Great, or Nebucadnezzar, or Akhnaton, or Hitler, or Bush II ever lived. Other than the effect that Julius Caesar’s rise to power had on some individuals in the Roman aristocracy, would history have been any different if some other general had ever dared cross the Rubicon? An appraisal of Hitler’s mental health is less important than an examination of the historical forces at play and the ways Hitler was able to manipulate them.

I don’t think we use the term “gort” to demonize our adversaries, although I know I have used the term to refer to the masses of consumers who take the artificial Industrial World to be the one and only “significant world”. Hell, I can’t deny it Scott. I hate the mall-rat mentality; and as far as “all is swell in Takerville”, that’s hard to stomach.

But demonizing people has great costs. It is a strategy that would perpetuate a dangerous “enemy-mentality”. We would be better off recognizing in each and every gort the potential to wake up; you know? Rather than view gorts as things to be drowned by great floods, we can view gorts as Sleeping Awakened Ones.

In the meantime, it would be arrogant on my part were I to assume I am fully awake.

The interior lives of all people are hidden from my view. Many obedient employees may be ambivalent about morally questionable parts of their jobs. Such doubts are usually crushed by the overwhelming power of the social context to which these people are accountable. Thoughtful cops, like thoughtful Nazis, get weeded out.

Leaders who truly fight for social justice get assassinated by governments.

Working for change without relying on the concept of enemies raises some practical difficulties. What do we do with all the anger that we’re accustomed to unleashing against an enemy? Is it possible to hate actions and policies without hating the people who are implementing them?

For example, I hate that a local store-owner implements the policy of having his employees work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Does it follow that I hate the man and his family that reaps the rewards of such a policy? Does empathizing with those whose actions we oppose create dissonance that undermines our determination?

I am not saying that we need to “make friends” with the Bush family or that we accept British-American Imperialism as inevitable. Their policies may soon incinerate the planet. I know police officers are roughing up the people while making arrests. I know managers are pushing their false authority into employees’ faces. Our challenge is to call forth the awakened one from within the gort.

One last thing: what to do with the anger people all over the earth want to unleash against Bush and the British-American Empire (and its Israeli Friends of Fascism)?

Give the people a chance to dismantle the war economy. “We the People” are ultimately oppressed by centuries of racism and greed – and not all of us are dupes.

A few more words from Cioran: “Alaric claimed that a demon drove him against Rome. Every exhausted civilization awaits its barbarian, and every barbarian awaits his demon.

While the aristocracy is demonizing Arabs and outlaws, they are ignoring the intelligence of the general public, the Peoples. As more and more ordinary people living in Western civilization begin to wake up, extraordinary things may happen.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderfull response Gorticide.
It gets me thinking. Cars, computers ect, may be a neccesary evil in this time and place, but only for the IW. If someone from IW or governent saw that post, they'd be like "Great we got them thinking the way we want, there not going anywhere". saying there a neccesary evil is Gort like thinking. If you really think about it, then cars, computers, ect arent a neccesary evil, its true they helped open up the communication channel. But if we got rid of our car's, computer ect, and others asked why, some might think where crazy for doing it, but others might take a que from us and get rid of theres And start living simple once again. If you think about it, not many would be willing to do it. If someone asked me right now to do it, id be like no way, need my car, need my computer. I guess its why very soon we wont have a choice. Though we'll still have free will.

My point is i guess there not really a neccesary evil. Human race would survive without them and they dont hold much power in the light of truth.


Gorticide wrote.
Quote:
The line that separates me from the society I condemn is blurred

Thats the issue isn't it. Where the line starts and too many people still doing it from a logical stand point. More wisdom on letting go and letting god.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I disagree.

A line of demarcation needs to be drawn. One exists in every situation. Don't give the IW a loophole. It is the gort's (i.e. me, you, everybody's) fault for buzzing along through life and choosing to or not to stop to question reality and perception. I feel fortunate to have been pushed in the right direction and I feel I owe it to other young gorts to veer them on the same path.

Is an alcoholic merely an alcoholic because he feels he has no choice but to drink because of his situation?

This website's motto has always been to bust the gort.

I myself lose motivation to bust it up while thinking about the impending doom and gloom. The end can make us lose our focus. Don't you think Bush and that grocery store owner and everybody inbetween says to themselves, "Hey screw everybody else. One day I'm gonna die so I better cover myself while I can." Okay, so I can see where we can all exhibit the same thought processes while passing bums on the street. When I was younger I had more of a tendency to look away from the bum on the street and keep walking hoping he didn't say anything to me. That feeling is not as strong as it used to be unless he's got a knife and chasing me down the corner screaming for a dollar or a six pack of Shlitz. I'm now more inclined to reach out a hand and help instead of step on the poor guy.

I'd say that the majority if not all of us on this website would stop for that bum owing to the fact that we write here. We hold concern for the lower class.

As long as there is a lower class we belong to it. As long as there is a soul in prison our's are not free. Or am i just generalizing?

We are stuck in this web. We are not responsible for our situations. We can only live within our own boundaries. The only place that has not gone completely conquered is the space between our two ears. So our jobs are to take control of it and change others.

Again, doom and gloom will slow one's efforts down, but who's gonna give up and throw the towel in.

One thing I've seen on this site has made me resolute even though if it seems ridiculous. one of chi-monkey's signatures - If the world was ending tomorrow, I'd still plant a tree today.

If the world was ending tomorrow, I would not give up the fight today.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If the world was ending tomorrow, I would not give up the fight today.


That was one of the most uplifting things I've read in this thread...My sentiments exactly, Rubbersoul. . . It would be utter, self-hating, life-hating nihilism to give up the fight. I, for one, am no nihilist. And I'm glad to know that there are so many others (hell, just one other besides me would be satisfactory...I'm a lonely, lonely man haha) on this site who share in that creative, fiery passion to purge themselves of gortly ways and reach enlightenment.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 6:44 pm    Post subject: YOU WON'T GET ME THIS TIME Reply with quote

Let me correct myself.

rubbersoul wrote:
We are not responsible for our situations.


What I meant to say was that we are not responsible for our origins or birth or manner of upbringing.

Actions equal reactions. Someone laughs at somebody else insultingly. That person will either shrug it off, laugh along, get fired up and wanna brawl, outsmart the person making fun of them and get back in a subtle way if that person was truly hurt by the insult or react in another manner.

Pain does not hide. What I'm trying to say is that people are cognizant of their actions. You don't think the grocery store owner knows that he's an evil bastard for making his employees work 12 hours a day. C'mon.

Alexander S. wrote:
If only it were so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and to destroy them.


JESUS CHRIST ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! You guys got me with that whole Bush getting arrested in Canada thing, but yer not gonna get me with this one! Laughing

cide wrote:
When it comes to ethics, I can't help but see myself as more spiritually evolved than cops, prosecutors, judges, soldiers, politicians, corporate executives, et cetera.

Hence, I am faced with my own hubris.


No you aren't. If you acknowledge the spirit of the world, then your hubris vanishes.

How bout this:

Hypocrite Gort

Hypocrite Gort

Hypocrite Gort

Hypocrite Gort

Hypocrite Gort



Ps - Life is absurd
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See what you think of this

http://www.kfa.org/pdf/KOnWar.pdf

Its from a dialogue with J. Krishnamurti. It relates well to this post.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 11:09 pm    Post subject: Truth and Beauty Reply with quote

That's some speech. Who is that guy?

The only way to see clearly is to try not to see. Sheez.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: Krishnamurti Reply with quote

Thanks Mr. Miyagi. This was helpful. When I become aware of my so-called negative side, does it disappear? Like when Rubbersoul writes, "If you acknowledge the spirit of the world, then your hubris vanishes."

I had to quote some of http://www.kfa.org/pdf/KOnWar.pdf. I guess when I am digging below the surface of things, when I am really trying to see my Shadow (the ugly aspects of my being), I take the gloves off ...

With Krishnamurti, I say to you guys, "Haven’t you noticed all this? Now how does this happen?".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Q: Could we talk about the problem of over population?

K: Overpopulation. Fortunately I have no children. What am I to do about it - what are you to do about overpopulation? You go to India, which I do every winter, except last year, and there are 570 million people, crawling. For one job there are about 5,000 people, people sleeping in the streets.
Tremendous population - China is the same, go to the East, it is burdened, and in Europe too.

So what are we to do - you and I, not somebody else - what are we to do about it? Join the Family Planning Board? Advocate which is the best contraceptive and so on? Is that your major problem? Come on, sirs, is this what you want to discuss...



Q: That’s not what I mean, sir, but in connection with talking about life and death, there is a connection with death and multiplying. Not how to solve the problem of over population...


K: Connection between life and death and the overpopulation. Is that it? I don’t quite understand the question then.


Q: You have talked in the past days about life and death.


K: Yes.


Q: And our connection with death. But it is the necessity of nature to multiply.


K: Yes, nature multiplies. And then what - what is the question, sir?


Q: I think the questioner wants to say something about procreation, and the necessity of procreation.


K: Why do we procreate? I think it is fairly clear, isn’t it? Is that your problem?


Q: I have a problem: in the process of learning about myself there arises something which distorts it eventually - an active movement which seems to be fear, which seems to turn round the whole thing, as I watch that...


K: Have I understood, sir - I’ll have to repeat it. What is the factor of distortion in our life? Is that it?


Q: Yes, for me it seems to be fear.


K: Wait - what is the factor of distortion in our life? I want to go straight, or walk easily, quietly, happily, with great energy, vitality and so on, but certain factors enter and distort the whole movement of life. There are certain seeds in one, conscious or unconscious, that bring about chaos, misery. Is that what you mean? That’s right. Now shall we discuss that? Is that your problem?


Q: Can I give another example? We buy food and the shopkeeper has to pay tax. The tax goes for nuclear weapons and so on.


K: Yes, sir, yes.


Q: And also by the revenues we pay we are contributing to war.


K: By buying a stamp, you’re contributing to war.
Now, you understand his first question. What are the factors that distort life? What are the seeds conscious or unconscious in one that brings about such a disgraceful existence? Do you want to talk it over together? It would be rather fun, if we could go into it. Now how do you find out?

Now what happens? What happens so that things go wrong? I take to drink, you follow - everything goes to pieces. Go on, sir, discuss with me - let’s talk it over. Is it a factor of heblueity, the genes? Is it that there is a seed in me, in one, that has been so overlaid by environment, by the culture in which I live, and that seed begins to grow and distorts everything, all my life? Now what is that seed?


Q: I project ideas and ideals.


K: He says ideals. I have no ideal. I see the futility of ideals. I’ve dropped them. I want to lead a really good, sane, balanced life, a happy life. But something goes wrong. I want to find out if it is a seed in me, in one, that gradually puts out its destructive force. I’m enquiring. Is it my parents, is it the society, and is it the culture that I live in, that has compelled me to conform, shaped my mind and my heart, and when given an opportunity
it breaks through? Which is it? I’ve seen so many people - I’ve lived a long time - from the age of fifteen, I’ve seen this happen, with people of my own age - begin beautifully, you know, and gradually finish, destructive, cruel, brutal, self-centeblue, ugly, drunk.


Q: For me it’s habit.


K: Habit?


Q: That seems to stamp on the...


K: Have you understood my question, sir? You say ideals create this horror. I have no ideals, I don’t look to a future life or to a future action - I want to live a life now, from day to day, happily, energetically, clearly. But at the same time there is a flowering of the ugly - the religions have called it the devil, the evil one, and the Hindus and the Asiatics explain it as karma - the word ’karma’ I believe means to act, and that action is conditioned by your past actions. So your actions control your life, therefore behave. If you don’t behave properly this life, next life you’re going to pay for it, therefore behave, and all that’s involved.

So I want to find out why a human being who wants to live a straight, harmonious, active life, totally, all round, gradually goes to pieces?


You’ve understood my question now? That was his question.

Look, sir - I’ve been brought up fairly well, educated, so-called educated. And it happens I take to drink. And gradually I drink more and more and more, which destroys my brain cells. What was the origin of it, why did I do this, when I could have walked as - you know - why did I take to drink, destroy myself? Doesn’t this happen? Some of you take drugs, LSD, marijuana, pot, all the rest of it. Why? You know very well it destroys your mind and you keep on taking it. I want to find out what is the factor in human beings that brings about this catastrophic activity.


Q: It seems to me that people don’t see that it destroys.


K: I know - yes, sir. You see it outside, I don’t see it. Why don’t I see it? It comes to the same thing.


Q: It seems to me a person takes to drugs or drink because the seed which he has - the centre which is separating him from everything makes existence so intolerable, he has to put himself out of his misery.


K: That’s an explanation, isn’t it? I want to find out why it happens, why do I do this thing? Is it inevitable because the seed has been planted - put yourself in somebody’s place, sir.


Q: The seed can be a conditioning of the past.


K: The seed can be the conditioning of the past, some weakness in the character, some unsolved desire - I want to be great and I can’t be great. I see somebody capable, full of life and beauty and I would like to be like him but I can’t. I’m jealous, I begin to hate, and escape through drink. I know all this, I conform, or I compare myself with somebody and in that comparison I hate everything, because I can’t reach up to that level, I’m jealous. So I take to drink, or drugs, or sex, or whatever it is.

Now after explaining all this, what am I to do?


Q: Become aware of your negative side and it would disappear.


K: If you would become aware of your so-called negative side, then perhaps it would disappear.

Isn’t this one of your problems? You may not be so violently destructive, but there are these two sides, aren’t there? I want to be kind, generous; I want to have deep affection. At the same time in its wake comes jealousy, antagonism, hate. Haven’t you noticed all this? Now how does this happen?

------------------------------------------------------
Look - I am angry, that’s the only factor, isn’t it? When I say, I must not be angry, that’s a conclusion, that’s an abstraction. But the fact is I’m angry. If I know how to resolve that anger, its opposite wouldn’t arise. Are we meeting each other? I am angry.

Now can I solve that anger without resorting to its opposite, saying "I must not be angry."

The must not be angry is its opposite. And that comes only when I can’t understand the whole structure of anger and go beyond it.

So I say, can I understand anger, not control it, not reject it, not yield to it, but understand it, have an insight into the whole structure of anger? If I do, then the opposite doesn’t exist. You’re meeting my point? Please do come. Shall we go on?


Q: If I don’t control my anger I’m afraid I’ll kill someone.


K: Look: before you kill somebody, try to find out if you can resolve the anger. To control it is to suppress it. To say, I must not be angry is to create the opposite, and therefore a conflict between must not be and the fact that I am. Or if you try to escape from it, anger is still there.

So now I do not escape, I do not suppress, I do not say, I must resort to - there is anger. Now how am I to go beyond, how is the mind to go beyond it, without creating its opposite? You’ve understood? Please come on, sir, some of you understand this? Good, then come with me. Then what am I to do? Look what has taken place. Before I tried to control it, which is wastage of energy. Before I tried to suppress it, which is wastage of energy. Before I tried to escape from it or rationalize it, which is avoidance, an escape from the fact. If I don’t escape, control, suppress or try to rationalize it, all that energy is concentrated, isn’t it? So I have got that enormous energy to deal with one fact, which is anger. Have you got that? Please, otherwise we can’t go on - if you haven’t got it then it
becomes merely verbal. You understand? You’re angry, your tradition, your culture says, "Suppress it, control it, escape from it, and rationalize it." I say, that is wasting your energy which prevents you from observing the only factor, which is anger. So anger has no opposite, there is only that, and you have the energy.

Now, next step. Why do you call it anger? Because previously you have been angry, by naming it as anger, you have emphasized the previous experience. So you are observing the present factor with the previous experience, therefore conditioning the present factor. Are you meeting this? So the naming is wastage of energy. So you do not name, no control, no suppression, no escape, and you have the energy. Then, is there anger? Don’t say you don’t know, because you are then facing the only factor. And when you are facing completely that factor, the factor doesn’t exist, because it exists only when you are escaping, fighting, controlling, suppressing. Right, you’ve got it?

So, there is in me, in one, a human being, this duality. And I ask myself, "Is there a duality at all?"

There is man, woman, sunshine - that’s obvious, but psychologically, are there opposites? Or only thought invented the opposite because it could not solve the one factor. Have you got it? Please. And this requires attention, doesn’t it? Because to see this clearly you need to observe. And you’re prevented from observing when thought says, "I must do something about it." It is thought that has said, "I must control, otherwise I’ll kill somebody." It is thought that has said, "I must suppress it, I don’t know what to do about it, I must run away from it, I must watch it".

These are all activities of thought - when you say, "I must watch it".

So thinking about the factor is wastage of energy. You understand all this? There is no wastage of energy when there is only observation.



Sorry about the long quote. This is all very helpful to me.

Quote:
Krishnamurti: What is the difference between an individual and a human being? Look, sir - you live in Europe, another lives in India, Asia - each of them have the same problems as
you have, though modified, but the same problems - hunger, starvation, pleasure, sex, war, worrying about tomorrow, uncertainty, you follow? - the agony of existence - it exists there, it exists here. They are human problems, aren’t they? But I can, the individual can translate it as a particular issue. The individual is his temperament, his character, his idiosyncrasy, depending on his conditioning.

So the human is much bigger, wider, whether you’re brown, black, purple, Indian, you belong to the whole collective human race, human beings. But the moment you separate yourself as an individual, you are creating a division, and hence conflict and all the rest of it.

So what are you to do as a human being when there is this war going on?

That has been created by nationalism, by the military, by the engineers, by the scientists, by the - you know, all the rest of it -they have invested a tremendous lot of money in the material of war. Each nation does this; it’s their peculiar dirty game. And I see the whole thing, I say, "Out."

Now what shall I do, as a human being - you understand?

What am I to do, sir? This is not a question of duality - what am I to do?

All right, let’s begin - what should I not do. Should I not buy stamps? Should I not travel by car? Not pay taxes, go round doing propaganda for
anti-war, demonstrations, all the rest of it? You follow?

I’m asking this - what am I to do? I have no relationship to the war, I can’t just sit still and let the war go by, I’m part of this, I’ve cut myself completely off, and yet I must act. What shall I do?

I am leading a different kind of life when I don’t belong to any country, when I don’t belong to any group, when I don’t have any kind of relationship with any kind of brutality - I’m leading a different life. And yet round me the misery is going on. What am I to do?

Why don’t you see totally, that as long as you have any feeling for
nationality, you are breeding war? Why don’t you see clearly, that as long as you belong to any sect, any group, any religion, you’re breeding war.

War means destroying, war means conflict - give it another
name but it’s there. Now, sir, have you seen this, have you seen the beauty of this? So a mind that is acting in the past or in the future must contribute to war. A mind that is caught in nationalism, in religious beliefs, rituals, sects and so on, must contribute to war. So have you a mind that doesn’t belong to all this? Then if you have, you are doing the right thing. You are acting.


So, are we breeding war (as gortbusters)?
It's OK if we are. I'm not saying we "shouldn't" wage war against the gorts ... I don't know what I am trying to say. There is such a thing as a spiritual war, right? I just think the war against the gorts is an inner battle.

When I wrote:
The line that separates me from the society I condemn is blurred.


Rubbersoul wrote:
No I disagree.

A line of demarcation needs to be drawn. One exists in every situation. Don't give the IW a loophole.


Am I giving the IW a loophole?
This is beyond my power. The IW is going to face the consequences of its actions. That's just karma.

Does the grocery store owner know that he's an evil bastard for making his employees work 12 hours a day? Perhaps he does, Rubbersoul ...
He will not escape his bad karma.

Keep busting those gorts ...

I was just bringing up some concerns. After all, in the end, I am the one responsible for my actions should I explode in anger. I want to bust gorts without busting their skulls wide open. You know?

I have to ask this question again. I am asking it not as a rhetorical question. I really want to know the answer.

Does empathizing with those whose actions we oppose create dissonance that undermines our determination?


I look for answers from our brothers over at Species Traitor.

Craig 'Critter' Marshall wrote:
There are many people pulling out – rejecting society as we know it. The numbers of these people are growing everyday, some may see this as a good thing, however I don’t see this as a solution to the growing environmental crisis. While these people who pull away from civilized society are one up on those who take part in this death race called civilization, many are doing nothing to dismantle the machine that’s killing all of us. As I see it, the people who flee from consumer society and don’t fight it are cowards. By fighting it I don’t mean coming up with ways to avoid consumerism, I mean smashing the fucking corporations that endanger and eradicate any/all life forms.

from Destroying Industrial Society
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:55 pm    Post subject: Spiritual not physical Reply with quote

This bastard Krishnamutri is quite honestly a little confusing in my opinion even though he seems to speak so plainly.

So the dialogue concludes with these words:

Quote:
A mind that is caught in nationalism, in religious beliefs, rituals, sects and so on, must contribute to war. So have you a mind that doesn’t belong to all this? Then if you have, you are doing the right thing. You are acting.


Are you considering this website to be any of the above. Here, Krishnamutri is speaking to gorts not gortbusters? Am I right? Those people went to him to look for answers. Here, we look to each other.

If I understood his words correctly ... When one stops pursuing his ideals and lives completely in the present without regard of the past or future then that person has led a different life, then ...

Quote:
I don’t have any kind of relationship with any kind of brutality


Now my question is this: How is gortbusters contributing to a war if we speak against it? Is this a brutal relationship?

Gorticide wrote:
Does empathizing with those whose actions we oppose create dissonance that undermines our determination?


Yes.

I don't feel sorry for King Lear. He had it coming!

Alright I want to draw a line.

Hate and contempt should be shown for those who actively and unregretably trash the biosphere without any remorse for their actions. They know they are responsible. These include those who hold much power. Politicians, lawyers, judges, military, and anyone else you want to include.

Those who should be looked at for inspiration to stop these powerful are the virtuous. Those who acknowledge the spirit of the world.

All of the people inbetween who act without thinking should be swayed to the right side. Towards the side of the virtuous.

----------------------------------

Pirsig - It's not technology that's bad, it's those who misuse it.

So, I don't think following Craig's advice is going to help too much. A physical war will not help those looking for a solution come to it.
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