Author |
|
Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2192
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
and it is . . . .
Speedy.
No, not the Speedy you remember who is now Arsenal
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20041013/D85MOUP83.html
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Hank Wirtz Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1177
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 3:59pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Apparently Roy never shared needles.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
James Wright Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 284
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Judd Winick...who would have thought it?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Hank Wirtz Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1177
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Eh, I wouldn't have put it past Kevin Smith. He gave it to Karen page before he killed her.
And yes, I mean it in all the ways you can read that statement.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1231
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Winick ... I wish his stories were as attention grabbing as his subject matter.
__________________ Check out the Roger Stern board at www.sterntalk.net
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2061
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Joe Zhang wrote:
Winick ... I wish his stories were as attention grabbing as his subject matter. |
|
|
He's not bad when he's not focusing on his causes although, thinking about it, I've dropped pretty much everything after he started on a title; GREEN LANTERN, THE OUTSIDERS, GREEN ARROW. I haven't had a chance to read his work on BATMAN yet, so I reserve judgment. I really enjoyed his creator-owned THE ADVENTURES OF BARRY WEEN BOY GENIUS, and have heard great things about PEDRO AND ME, so maybe that's where his talent is best showcased.
__________________
Matt Reed
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
| email
|
|
James Wright Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 284
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I, too, have dropped every book after he started on it.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Hank Wirtz Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1177
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 5:27pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
While I do like Winick's superhero stuff, I wish he'd drop all his hero titles and devote himself to producing nothing but Barry Ween.
Then, the world would truly be a better place.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Steve Lyons Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2004 Location: United States Posts: 764
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 8:18pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Matt Reed wrote:
He's not bad when he's not focusing on his causes although, thinking about it, I've dropped pretty much everything after he started on a title; GREEN LANTERN, THE OUTSIDERS, GREEN ARROW. I haven't had a chance to read his work on BATMAN yet, so I reserve judgment. |
|
|
Given the way Batman is portrayed in his own books nowadays, how good could it be? I'll stick to Superman/Batman until somebody else figures out what to do with the character.
As for Winnick, it seems he's compelled to make everyone remember Pedro. Understandable, but how long can he do it without watering down the effectiveness of his memory? How long before it becomes ripe for parody?
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Melissa Ashton Byrne Robotics Security
Nudge
Joined: 15 April 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 1037
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 8:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Is she a sidekick for Ollie Queen or Conner? (is that his name? The son, whatever his name is)
Plenty of people have the virus without it having more than a 'be careful and manage your health' impact on their lives. It'd be nice if this was the case with this character, and the possibilities were portrayed, rather than an inevitability.
__________________ Oh, you would too, if you could!
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
| email
|
|
Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2061
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 9:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Steve Lyons wrote:
Matt Reed wrote:
He's not bad when he's not focusing on his causes although, thinking about it, I've dropped pretty much everything after he started on a title; GREEN LANTERN, THE OUTSIDERS, GREEN ARROW. I haven't had a chance to read his work on BATMAN yet, so I reserve judgment.
|
|
|
Given the way Batman is portrayed in his own books nowadays, how good could it be? I'll stick to Superman/Batman until somebody else figures out what to do with the character.
|
|
|
I'm enjoying GOTHAM CENTRAL. Granted, Batman isn't the central character in the book, but I like the way he's been portrayed. I also enjoy DETECTIVE and GOTHAM KNIGHTS. BATMAN, with it's rotating creative team, has been hit-or-miss for me. I really enjoyed Loeb/Lee's "Hush" run, but thought Azzarello's stint was underwhelming. Like I said, I haven't had the chance to read Winnick's run, so I can't comment on it. In general, however, I've enjoyed reading the various Bat-books since the fall and rise of Gotham City several years ago. Your mileage may vary.
__________________
Matt Reed
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
| email
|
|
Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Posts: 424
|
Posted: 13 October 2004 at 10:34pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I very much enjoyed Winnick's CAPER, his crime/mob comic. The second arc (each was 4 issues) was pencilled by John Severin!
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Neil Welch Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 185
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 4:08am | IP Logged
|
|
|
She's not so much a sidekick, Melissa, more a waif/stray who Ollie picked up and has started to train not out of any great sense of commitment, more for want of something better to do.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2192
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 6:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hank Wirtz wrote:
Eh, I wouldn't have put it past Kevin Smith. He gave it to Karen page before he killed her.
And yes, I mean it in all the ways you can read that statement.
|
|
|
That's not entirely accurrate. SHe probably didn't have it. Mysterio had a fake doctor in a white coat tell her she had it, and she believed it because of her drugs and sleeping around. Mysterio said "Maybe she did, maybe she didn't. You think she'd at least get a second opinion."
Edited by Rob Hewitt on 14 October 2004 at 6:35am
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Ronald Pegram Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 615
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 6:59am | IP Logged
|
|
|
My problem with this storyline is this:
- If she is cured by some cosmic being, how much of a downer is that for the people who really have it? No GL is going to fix them. It almost seems too trite for me.
- If she dies a heroic death, wouldn't we have seen that coming a mile away? How many (cough cough) moments are we going to have in battle? I'd want her off the team if she couldn't scrap and I was a teammate.
- Why would someone whose immune system is compromised be allowed to play at being a super-hero. Are there no other ways in the DCU for her to make a difference? How about retiring and educating others?
- I sure wouldn't want to explain his origin to my daughter. "You see, Jasmyne, Speedy was a ho and drug user who is using the last years of her life to fight crime and not be skanky..."
I just think HIV is a topic that may be crossing the line in some ways. Some may say that HIV-+ people want to see a hero with a similar affliction but I am a mulatto and I have lived my entire life without ever wanting to see a hero with sickle cell anemia. It just seems like he's writing himself into a corner, either making her die some heroic death or ignoring the reality of the disease.
I hope it works out for him plot-wise because I think his intentions are honorable.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Glenn Greenberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 798
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 7:03am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hank Wirtz wrote:
Eh, I wouldn't have put it past Kevin Smith. He gave it to Karen page before he killed her.
And yes, I mean it in all the ways you can read that statement. |
|
|
Karen didn't have AIDS. Mysterio revealed in the last chapter that he posed as the doctor who gave her the bad news, and he said she should have gotten a second opinion.
__________________ Glenn Greenberg
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Bill Dowling Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 624
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 7:17am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Melissa Ashton wrote:
Is she a sidekick for Ollie Queen or Conner? (is that his name? The son, whatever his name is)
Plenty of people have the virus without it having more than a 'be careful and manage your health' impact on their lives. It'd be nice if this was the case with this character, and the possibilities were portrayed, rather than an inevitability.
|
|
|
Sure plenty of people have the virus without much of an impact on their lives, but how many of those people get into fights with sharp implements on a regular basis? If you're wearing tights and the logo on the cover says "Green Arrow", odds are pretty good that you'll be bleeding a lot.
I wouldn't want to bring any young girl into combat, but definitely not a young girl that I would be afraid of carrying if we were both bleeding.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
John Byrne Byrne Robotics CEO
Robot Wrangler
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8679
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 7:21am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Giving a character HIV opens several different doors,
none of which it would be all that advisable to step
thru.
For instance, there is the eternal problem of time as
it is portrayed in comics. Once upon a time, this was
no problem at all, since the passage of time was
simply ignored, and imho the books were all the
better for it. But in the past few decades it has
become all the vogue to make some kind of
acknowledgement of "real time", and so all manner
of graphs and charts and sliding scales have been
concocted to work out how "comicbook time" relates
to "real time". Make someone HIV positive, and the
first thing you'll crash into is this aspect. If the
character is "managing" the problem, do they
essentailly live forever? People with HIV survive for
decades, in some cases, which would translate into
more than the lifetime of most readers in
"comicbook time". If, on the other hand, the illness is
given a "realistic" arc and the victim lives only a few
years, "real time" what does this mean in terms of
"comicbook time"? Has the disease advanced
rapidly, or has "real time" elapsed in the story? If so,
what about the ripple effect? Has real time elapsed
in all the other books as well? (Suppose Speedy
takes three years, "real time", to die. Currently, in
DOOM PATROL, I have Nudge, who is 15 years old.
Would I be compelled to have her age to 18 while the
Speedy story unfolds in another title, unconnected to
DP?)
The second problem is that Important Deaths (which
this must surely be, or why do it?) create "Historical
Moments" which some writers feel they cannot
ignore from that point. (Death of Gwen Stacy,
anyone? Death of Phoenix?) This also plays
against "comicbook time", since the modern
audience seems largely unwilling to accept
throw-away references such as used to be the
solution to time in comics ("It's been weeks since… "
"Months ago, when we last encountered…") Five
years after Speedy's death, there will be many
(especially in the vocal online community) who will
be demanding that those five years be in some way
acknowledged -- and, alas, there will be writers and
editors who will agree.
Finally, a Ronald notes, these kinds of afflictions
have no place in "universes" populated by super
beings such as we see at Marvel or DC. There is no
reason for anyone to ever die of cancer, for instance,
since Reed Richards came up with three separate
cures while seeking a solution to Captain Marvel's
problem. In a world where magic exists, Barbara
Gordon should not have spent two seconds in that
wheelchair, let alone two decades. HIV should
simply not exist. Now -- it would be "unrealistic" to
say that, in fact, it doesn't exist. This is one of
the mistakes many writers and editors make,
chosing to treat the comicbook "universes" as if they
are "parallel dimensions" to our own, and thus
removing a degree of identification for the readers.
(When I was a kid, reading comics, I did not think of
Superman, Batman, the FF, Spider-Man et ai as
existing "somewhere else". I didn't think much about
it at all, in fact -- largely because the books
themselves did not expect me to.)
Whatever Judd Winnick has planned, it may very well
turn out to be a strong and memorable story. The
question, tho, is whether this is the right stage upon
which to play it.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Jason Schulman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 July 2004 Posts: 424
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 8:46am | IP Logged
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote:
In a world where magic exists, Barbara
Gordon should not have spent two seconds in that
wheelchair, let alone two decades. |
|
|
Not being a BIRDS OF PREY reader, I must ask -- has this problem been
dealt with in that title? Has Barbara said "I don't want some magic or
super-scientific cure"?
Of course, in a world where magic and super-science exist, Professor X shouldn't have to be in a wheelchair either.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Taavi Suhonen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 April 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 204
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 8:58am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Jason Schulman wrote:
Not being a BIRDS OF PREY reader, I must ask -- has this problem been
dealt with in that title? Has Barbara said "I don't want some magic or
super-scientific cure"?
|
|
|
I think it was established in Grant Morrison's JLA run (or at least
around that time) that she doesn't want to become a cyborg. Not a word
against magic that I know of.
EDIT: I remembered some extra detail - the Martian Manhunter offered to find a cybernetic cure for her and she refused it.
Edited by Taavi Suhonen on 14 October 2004 at 9:00am
__________________ "Well, I always wanted to be a writer... being a ruthless conqueror was my second choice."
- Shredder (old TMNT cartoon)
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
Brandon Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 63
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 9:19am | IP Logged
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote:
Giving a character HIV opens several different doors, none of which it would be all that advisable to step thru.
For instance, there is the eternal problem of time as it is portrayed in comics. Once upon a time, this was no problem at all, since the passage of time was simply ignored, and imho the books were all the better for it. But in the past few decades it has become all the vogue to make some kind of acknowledgement of "real time", and so all manner of graphs and charts and sliding scales have been concocted to work out how "comicbook time" relates to "real time". Make someone HIV positive, and the first thing you'll crash into is this aspect. If the character is "managing" the problem, do they essentailly live forever? People with HIV survive for decades, in some cases, which would translate into more than the lifetime of most readers in "comicbook time". If, on the other hand, the illness is given a "realistic" arc and the victim lives only a few years, "real time" what does this mean in terms of "comicbook time"? Has the disease advanced rapidly, or has "real time" elapsed in the story? If so, what about the ripple effect? Has real time elapsed in all the other books as well? (Suppose Speedy takes three years, "real time", to die. Currently, in DOOM PATROL, I have Nudge, who is 15 years old. Would I be compelled to have her age to 18 while the Speedy story unfolds in another title, unconnected to DP?)
|
|
|
Winick has said (spoilers about long term aspects of the storyline, I guess, so I'll go into invisitext mode to be safe) that he has no intention of having the character take ill or die from AIDS on his watch. He mentions the comics aging factor as well, about how some characters have been around for 60 years and haven't aged a day (although some fudging is done like with Dick Grayson growing up to become Nightwing). There's more information in the following Comic Book Resources inverview.
http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4298
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Jani Evinen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 May 2004 Location: Finland Posts: 85
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 9:30am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I like Winnick as a writer, His work on The Outsiders and GA has been very good,his 5 part Batman run was a bit bland IMO, I hope he does a better job when he takes over that title in a few months.
I have nothing against this story in Green Arrow.
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
|
Juan Jose Colin Arciniega Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Mexico Posts: 60
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 9:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
John Byrne wrote:
Giving a character HIV opens several different doors, none of which it would be all that advisable to step thru.
For instance, there is the eternal problem of time as it is portrayed in comics. Once upon a time, this was no problem at all, since the passage of time was simply ignored, and imho the books were all the better for it. But in the past few decades it has become all the vogue to make some kind of acknowledgement of "real time", and so all manner of graphs and charts and sliding scales have been concocted to work out how "comicbook time" relates to "real time". Make someone HIV positive, and the first thing you'll crash into is this aspect. If the character is "managing" the problem, do they essentailly live forever? People with HIV survive for decades, in some cases, which would translate into more than the lifetime of most readers in "comicbook time". If, on the other hand, the illness is given a "realistic" arc and the victim lives only a few years, "real time" what does this mean in terms of "comicbook time"? Has the disease advanced rapidly, or has "real time" elapsed in the story? If so, what about the ripple effect? Has real time elapsed in all the other books as well? (Suppose Speedy takes three years, "real time", to die. Currently, in DOOM PATROL, I have Nudge, who is 15 years old. Would I be compelled to have her age to 18 while the Speedy story unfolds in another title, unconnected to DP?)
The second problem is that Important Deaths (which this must surely be, or why do it?) create "Historical Moments" which some writers feel they cannot ignore from that point. (Death of Gwen Stacy, anyone? Death of Phoenix?) This also plays against "comicbook time", since the modern audience seems largely unwilling to accept throw-away references such as used to be the solution to time in comics ("It's been weeks since… " "Months ago, when we last encountered…") Five years after Speedy's death, there will be many (especially in the vocal online community) who will be demanding that those five years be in some way acknowledged -- and, alas, there will be writers and editors who will agree.
Finally, a Ronald notes, these kinds of afflictions have no place in "universes" populated by super beings such as we see at Marvel or DC. There is no reason for anyone to ever die of cancer, for instance, since Reed Richards came up with three separate cures while seeking a solution to Captain Marvel's problem. In a world where magic exists, Barbara Gordon should not have spent two seconds in that wheelchair, let alone two decades. HIV should simply not exist. Now -- it would be "unrealistic" to say that, in fact, it doesn't exist. This is one of the mistakes many writers and editors make, chosing to treat the comicbook "universes" as if they are "parallel dimensions" to our own, and thus removing a degree of identification for the readers. (When I was a kid, reading comics, I did not think of Superman, Batman, the FF, Spider-Man et ai as existing "somewhere else". I didn't think much about it at all, in fact -- largely because the books themselves did not expect me to.)
Whatever Judd Winnick has planned, it may very well turn out to be a strong and memorable story. The question, tho, is whether this is the right stage upon which to play it. |
|
|
Wow!!!
What an answer!!!...
__________________ ----------------------
Juan Jose Colin Arciniega
From Mexico City
Computer Engineer, UNAM
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Juan Jose Colin Arciniega Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Mexico Posts: 60
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 9:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
That reminds me...(altough i don't like to mention him)...PAD did an AIDS story running on THE INCREDIBLE HULK so many yeas ago...
__________________ ----------------------
Juan Jose Colin Arciniega
From Mexico City
Computer Engineer, UNAM
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| email
|
|
Allen Berrebbi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 157
|
Posted: 14 October 2004 at 9:36am | IP Logged
|
|
|
And they wonder why kids don't buy comics anymore
Sounds like a fun and escapist type of storyline to me. Similar to the Lee/
Kirby Galactus epic.
__________________ Allen Berrebbi
http://www.krbmedia.com
http://www.krbweb.com
http://www.damagecontrolonline.com
http://www.friendlywireless.net
|
Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
|
|
|