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Ronald Pegram
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 10:11am | IP Logged  

Brandon Carter wrote:

[Winick has said (spoilers about long term aspects of the storyline, I guess, so I'll go into invisitext mode to be safe) that he has no intention of having the character take ill or die from AIDS on his watch.  He mentions the comics aging factor as well, about how some characters have been around for 60 years and haven't aged a day (although some fudging is done like with Dick Grayson growing up to become Nightwing).  There's more information in the following Comic Book Resources inverview.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=4298

...which means, from a story-telling perspective, she is just going to cough and faint at inappropriate times to remind readers she has a disease, while, at other times, she is going to be super-human. It's just a little inconvenience and the hero can be a role-model for kids...

the run-away, ex-prostitute, HIV+ hero...

Sigh

That's why Green Arrow takes her on as his super-hero side-kick, because she has HIV, but she isn't going to be sick from it, it's just HER MOTIVATION!

Waiter, check please...

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Rob Hewitt
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His motivation is to tell a story about a character who happens to be HIV positive.  It won't be mentioned every issue, but it will be dealt with-the medicine, her fear that she will always be alone.  He believes HIV is not a death sentence, aprticularly in a world where time does not pass, and thus she can be shown living with HIV (not dying of AIDS).  He brings up cases of people having the disease for 20 years or more who have kept it in check through drugs, then tohers who have bad side effects from the drugs, then others who have died.  He never wants to tell the story of her dying of AIDS and hopes no one else does either. 
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 11:13am | IP Logged  

His motivation is to tell a story about a character who
happens to be HIV positive.  It won't be mentioned
every issue, but it will be dealt with-the medicine, her
fear that she will always be alone.  He believes HIV
is not a death sentence, aprticularly in a world where
time does not pass, and thus she can be shown
living with HIV (not dying of AIDS).  He brings up
cases of people having the disease for 20 years or
more who have kept it in check through drugs, then
tohers who have bad side effects from the drugs,
then others who have died.  He never wants to tell
the story of her dying of AIDS and hopes no one else
does either. 

**********

This shows a remarkable degree of naivity about
comics and fandom, if true. There are certain things
which are eternal: If two people are in love, a loud
segment of fandom will demand they get married. If
they get married, a loud segment of fandom will
demand they have a kid. If they have a kid, a loud
segment of fandom will complain that the kid is not
aging "normally". Etc, etc.

Give someone a mortal disease and a loud
segment of fandom will demand that person die.
And they will demand it over, and over, and over, and
over. . .   Until the person dies. Then they will say the
death was a sales gimmick and utterly unnecessary.
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Ronald Pegram
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Rob Hewitt wrote:
His motivation is to tell a story about a character who happens to be HIV positive.  It won't be mentioned every issue, but it will be dealt with-the medicine, her fear that she will always be alone.  He believes HIV is not a death sentence, aprticularly in a world where time does not pass, and thus she can be shown living with HIV (not dying of AIDS).  He brings up cases of people having the disease for 20 years or more who have kept it in check through drugs, then tohers who have bad side effects from the drugs, then others who have died.  He never wants to tell the story of her dying of AIDS and hopes no one else does either. 

So why tell it? Doesn't the fact that she never gets sick and will never die render the point of her disease meaningless? Is Winnick trying to say that people living with AIDS have no more problems than the rest of us. I could go on...

How can she be a hero for living with it if it never bothers her? How can she be an accurate representation of real people if she never suffers from it? Why does he want to tell the story of a person, who was an ex-prostitute, living with HIV in a comic book? There are transsexual readers of comics as well. Should a hero be named Ultra Woman if he is really a guy? Are these stories really needed in comics?

We're reaching a point in this country in which we want to honor bad behavior more than any other. Winnick wants to tell my kid the story of an ex-prostitute with HIV, who is now living with an older non-relative male, gone good and I aint buying it. It's too adult in content. He's a talented guy but this needs another forum. He's want to include this in the Teen Titans of all places.

By the way, he's not telling the story of a person living with HIV because no one living with HIV is running around shooting arrows at people and hanging out with the Teen Titans. He is shoehorning a personal issue into a comic book. If he wanted to tell the story of a person living with HIV, he could do that in a more realistic setting in which actions have consequences. From a morality play standpoint, I don't feel comfortable telling my kid "Sure you can be a prostitute and contract HIV, so long as you know a rich man who is also a costumed vigilante."

The story of people living with HIV requires more dignity than that of this character and her tales. The REAL people are far more heroic. Winnick is creating something here that will either be ignored or misused, in my opinion.

Now, if he were doing this in a different forum, I'd be ok with it. This really shouldnt be a part of the Teen Titans, however.

 

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Matt Reed
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Ronald Pegram wrote:

He's want to include this in the Teen Titans of all places.

Interesting.  I'm not a big fan of Winnick, but I'm a HUGE fan of Geoff Johns.  I'm not all that crazy about her diagnosed with HIV, but if anyone can handle it GJ can.  I won't be picking up GREEN ARROW, as I dropped it months ago out of boredom, but TEEN TITANS is one of my favorite titles.  I'll give it some time and see where it goes.



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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 11:24am | IP Logged  

We're reaching a point in this country in which we
want to honor bad behavior more than any other.

*********

It is certainly true that we have an unfortunate habit of
making "heroes" out of people who fell from grace --
alcoholism, drug abuse, prostitution, white collar
crime -- and "fought their way back" rather than those
who never fell in the first place.

I am often disturbed by the latest sports/movie/TV
personality being trotted out as a "good example"
because s/he has kicked some habit or other. The
unavoidable message would seem to be "screw up
your life as much as you want, kids, you can always
come back from it!"
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Rob Hewitt
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 11:58am | IP Logged  

My girlfriend would always complain about this.  SHe is someone who literally never did anything wrong-parents always knew where she was, she had  a steady boyfriend for years (me!) no alcohol, no drugs, no speed racing, etc.  Always did her homework, A/A- student. Graduated college in 3 years

Her borther is not a bad guy.  But he never did homework C student always didn't try at school even though he was smart enough, stayed out late, had his girlfriend sneak in, went away to school and came back with a D average and 3 credits after a year of full time work, etc. etc.

Yet he was always his mother's favorite. and he alwasy got monetary and other rewards when he WOULD do his homeowork and stuff.  My girlfriend never did, eben though she alwayss did her homework or whatever.  Her curfew was say midnight when we was a teen on weekends.  His was too.  But he stayed out all night.  SO he got a compromise where it was 230 am.  To tis day, he gets more for christams presents, birthdays, his mother always says how smart he his, etc.  Yet he still has no idea what to do with his life.

Sometimes bad behavior is rewarded

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Hank Wirtz
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Taavi Suhonen wrote:
Jason Schulman wrote:

Not being a BIRDS OF PREY reader, I must ask -- has this problem been dealt with in that title? Has Barbara said "I don't want some magic or super-scientific cure"?


I think it was established in Grant Morrison's JLA run (or at least around that time) that she doesn't want to become a cyborg. Not a word against magic that I know of.
 
EDIT: I remembered some extra detail - the Martian Manhunter offered to find a cybernetic cure for her and she refused it.

There was also the BoP arc where Ra's al-Ghul kidnapped Dinah and tried to "make her his queen." Barbara had a chance to use the Lazarus pit, but Dinah got hurt and Babs let her use it, which restored her Canary Cry (and her fertility, IIRC, not that I remember when she lost it).

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Hank Wirtz
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 12:07pm | IP Logged  

John Byrne wrote:
It is certainly true that we have an unfortunate habit of
making "heroes" out of people who fell from grace --
alcoholism, drug abuse, prostitution, white collar
crime -- and "fought their way back" rather than those
who never fell in the first place.

I am often disturbed by the latest sports/movie/TV
personality being trotted out as a "good example"
because s/he has kicked some habit or other. The
unavoidable message would seem to be "screw up
you life as much as you want, kids, you can always
come back from it!"

Ever notice that the most obnoxious born-agains start by giving you too much information about their lives before they found Jesus?

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Bob Simko
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John Byrne wrote:
It is certainly true that we have an unfortunate habit of
making "heroes" out of people who fell from grace --
alcoholism, drug abuse, prostitution, white collar
crime -- and "fought their way back" rather than those
who never fell in the first place.

I am often disturbed by the latest sports/movie/TV
personality being trotted out as a "good example"
because s/he has kicked some habit or other. The
unavoidable message would seem to be "screw up
you life as much as you want, kids, you can always
come back from it!"

Amen!  I was just bitching about this the other day.  Between Amy Fischer and Tatum O'Neal hawking their books and being displayed by Oprah as "victims" who should be admired, I wanted to puke.

During Reagan's funeral week, there was a picture in the paper of a soldier saluting the casket who had lost both hands in Iraq...how about elevating him and his struggles to the limelight.



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Lars Johansson
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Rob Hewitt wrote:

My girlfriend would always complain about this.  SHe is someone who literally never did anything wrong-parents always knew where she was, she had  a steady boyfriend for years (me!) no alcohol, no drugs, no speed racing, etc.  Always did her homework, A/A- student. Graduated college in 3 years

Her borther is not a bad guy.  But he never did homework C student always didn't try at school even though he was smart enough, stayed out late, had his girlfriend sneak in, went away to school and came back with a D average and 3 credits after a year of full time work, etc. etc.

Yet he was always his mother's favorite. and he alwasy got monetary and other rewards when he WOULD do his homeowork and stuff.  My girlfriend never did, eben though she alwayss did her homework or whatever.  Her curfew was say midnight when we was a teen on weekends.  His was too.  But he stayed out all night.  SO he got a compromise where it was 230 am.  To tis day, he gets more for christams presents, birthdays, his mother always says how smart he his, etc.  Yet he still has no idea what to do with his life.

Sometimes bad behavior is rewarded

To be a hero I guess you have to throw yourself in front of the bullet, if you know what I mean. You should always get hurt a little, then you're a hero. This is what I found out, it might be wrong. I know it's a crazy idea.



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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 1:00pm | IP Logged  

I have noticed that people have begun referring to
Christopher Reeve as a "hero". I do not wish to take
away one iota of the courage he must have needed
not to wake up screaming every single day, but the
hard truth is there was nothing "heroic" in what
happened to him, or how he dealt with it. In fact, as
far as how he dealt with it, he didn't even have a
choice. We could imagine he spent every hour of
every day (when not in front of the cameras) begging
family members to simply kill him and get it over with
-- but none of them did, so he had no choice but to
deal with each day as it came.*

Heroism, I believe, involves choice.




*Not in any way suggesting this is what was
happening, just in case there are those who are
paralyzed from the neck up who might be
reading these words. . .
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Aki Himmanen
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Ronald Pegram wrote:
So why tell it? Doesn't the fact that she never gets sick and will never die render the point of her disease meaningless? Is Winnick trying to say that people living with AIDS have no more problems than the rest of us. I could go on...


This bothers me too. Isn't it a common misconception that HIV isn't a lethal disease, probably based on the fact that the HIV -> AIDS progression has been slowed down considerably by antiretroviral medication? As of now, there is no cure for HIV. Winick may perpetuate this misunderstanding with his storyline. I'm not sure of his intentions based on his thought processes as described in the CBR interview; it seems like he thought about what Kevin Smith would do and, since Smith had done the AIDS story in Daredevil, assumed that this was something Smith might also have done with Speedy in GA!

That doesn't really translate into anything resembling a real social consciousness in my mind.

<>
.aki.
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Brian Miller
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Amen!  I was just bitching about this the other day.  Between Amy Fischer and Tatum O'Neal hawking their books and being displayed by Oprah as "victims" who should be admired, I wanted to puke.

**********************

 

Oprah is evil.



Edited by Brian Miller on 14 October 2004 at 1:06pm


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John Byrne
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Oprah spelled backwards is Harpo. He was always
the troublemaker. . .
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Ronald Pegram
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My last meat-headed reply:

Winnick is a talented guy but I have one problem with writers shoe-horning their personal beliefs into books. They never seem to give the other side of the fence equal time. Winnick says he wants to tell the story of someone living with HIV but would he want to tell the story of a right-wing republican hero teaming up with Oliver Queen?

One aspect of the Chief's writing that always stands out to me is how difficult it is to know his true prejudices, if he has any, from reading his work. For every guy accusing the Chief of racism because Wolverine said "Buck..." (and the truth is I grew up in an all-black community and 'young buck' is still used by some as a non-insulting term for young men), there are countless examples of strong characters of every ethnicity, some in relationships with people of other ethnicities, in his work.

Winnick comes across as a guy with an agenda at times.  Despite what he is saying, he is shoehorning his beliefs onto a comic character and I wonder if he would find it as interesting to write about a hero who was offended by this HIV+ hero's status as an active hero (with sharp weapons). If so, would that character come across as the heavy or can he be even-handed?

 



Edited by Ronald Pegram on 14 October 2004 at 1:19pm
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John Byrne
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Posted: 14 October 2004 at 1:30pm | IP Logged  

For every guy accusing the Chief of racism because
Wolverine said "Buck..."

*****


When did I do that? Seriously -- I don't recall this. (I
do remember Mark Gruenwald getting in all kinds of
trouble for making the "new" Bucky a Black guy -- the
character who became "Battlestar".)
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Ronald Pegram
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John Byrne wrote:
For every guy accusing the Chief of racism because
Wolverine said "Buck..."

*****


When did I do that? Seriously -- I don't recall this. (I
do remember Mark Gruenwald getting in all kinds of
trouble for making the "new" Bucky a Black guy -- the
character who became "Battlestar".)

Chief,

I just read the account of it on the old Warriors of Color board on AOL. Apparently, the story had Wolverine in an urban area and someone mentioned that some of the local youth may be trouble, or something to that effect, and Wolverine said "None of these young bucks better get in my way..."

Of course, it was brought up again and again as an example of the white hood popping out under your blazer like Superman's cape despite people like me who said "Hey, I've been called young buck by my granddad..."

Young buck is just a nothing thing...equivalent to young man or young blood (in the 70's). I've never heard it before as an example of racism. Hell, I say it as in "What's up young buck?" and I have never had anyone say "WHO YOU CALLING A DEER?"

If they misquoted you, you have my apologies. For some oddball reason, I thought you were familiar with the nonsense. I shouldn't have brought it up to be honest.

Bucky is worse than young buck. Bucky is a perjorative to some because it implies a inappropriately youthful name given to a man in a vein similar to the use of the perjorative 'Boy' back in the day. Of course, people do say "Home boy" without the same connotation but it's all in the subtext.

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Bob Simko
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I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

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Ronald Pegram
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Bob Simko wrote:
I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

It's old foolishness. I'm sorry I typed it. I thought it was shorthand for 'Stupid Example of Racism That Is Not Really Racist'

It appears to be shorthand for "STUPID EXAMPLE OF GUY MAKING EXAMPLE"

Again, my apologies, Chief

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Brian Miller
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Ronald Pegram wrote:

Bob Simko wrote:
I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

It's old foolishness. I'm sorry I typed it. I thought it was shorthand for 'Stupid Example of Racism That Is Not Really Racist'

It appears to be shorthand for "STUPID EXAMPLE OF GUY MAKING EXAMPLE"

Again, my apologies, Chief

Actually, here in the south, "buck" has three different meanings.

1) young fellow

2) black fellow

3) male deer

I have heard it used many times to refer to a black man as well as to simply a young man.



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Ronald Pegram
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Brian Miller wrote:
Ronald Pegram wrote:

Bob Simko wrote:
I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

It's old foolishness. I'm sorry I typed it. I thought it was shorthand for 'Stupid Example of Racism That Is Not Really Racist'

It appears to be shorthand for "STUPID EXAMPLE OF GUY MAKING EXAMPLE"

Again, my apologies, Chief

Actually, here in the south, "buck" has three different meanings.

1) young fellow

2) black fellow

3) male deer

I have heard it used many times to refer to a black man as well as to simply a young man.

I live in VA. Grew up in an almost all black city in all black neighborhood in VA.

We used the phrase young buck. Meant nothing other than 'young cat' or 'young dog' or 'young (insert any animal other than monkey)'. In other words, it was just an expression without racist intent.  People still say without malice. I have no doubt some may say it with malice but you can say the words 'White' or 'Black' and make it sound like acid on tin. It doesn't mean that the word or phrase itself is a negative one.



Edited by Ronald Pegram on 14 October 2004 at 2:26pm
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Brian Miller
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Ronald Pegram wrote:
Brian Miller wrote:
Ronald Pegram wrote:

Bob Simko wrote:
I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

It's old foolishness. I'm sorry I typed it. I thought it was shorthand for 'Stupid Example of Racism That Is Not Really Racist'

It appears to be shorthand for "STUPID EXAMPLE OF GUY MAKING EXAMPLE"

Again, my apologies, Chief

Actually, here in the south, "buck" has three different meanings.

1) young fellow

2) black fellow

3) male deer

I have heard it used many times to refer to a black man as well as to simply a young man.

I live in VA. Grew up in an almost all black city in all black neighborhood in VA.

We used the phrase young buck. Meant nothing other than 'young cat' or 'young dog' or 'young (insert any animal other than monkey)'. In other words, it was just an expression without racist intent.  People still say without malice. I have no doubt some may say it with malice but you can say the words 'White' or 'Black' and make it sound like acid on tin. It doesn't mean that the word or phrase itself is a negative one.

I didn't mean to imply that it have negative connotations. It was (is) a term used for blacks just like calling them black is. It is simply a term. Some blacks may not agree with it and decide that it offends them but I have never heard it as being negative.



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Ronald Pegram
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Brian Miller wrote:
Ronald Pegram wrote:
Brian Miller wrote:
Ronald Pegram wrote:

Bob Simko wrote:
I have never heard that the term "Buck" was any kind of racist thing!  This is totally new!

It's old foolishness. I'm sorry I typed it. I thought it was shorthand for 'Stupid Example of Racism That Is Not Really Racist'

It appears to be shorthand for "STUPID EXAMPLE OF GUY MAKING EXAMPLE"

Again, my apologies, Chief

Actually, here in the south, "buck" has three different meanings.

1) young fellow

2) black fellow

3) male deer

I have heard it used many times to refer to a black man as well as to simply a young man.

I live in VA. Grew up in an almost all black city in all black neighborhood in VA.

We used the phrase young buck. Meant nothing other than 'young cat' or 'young dog' or 'young (insert any animal other than monkey)'. In other words, it was just an expression without racist intent.  People still say without malice. I have no doubt some may say it with malice but you can say the words 'White' or 'Black' and make it sound like acid on tin. It doesn't mean that the word or phrase itself is a negative one.

I didn't mean to imply that it have negative connotations. It was (is) a term used for blacks just like calling them black is. It is simply a term. Some blacks may not agree with it and decide that it offends them but I have never heard it as being negative.

Ok, my misunderstanding. I think that's fair though. Some people take offense at being looked at but yeah, as a general rule, if you walk up to a group of young black men in VA and say "What's up young bucks?", they're more likely to think "Why is the white man being so friendly?" than "Damnable RACIST!!"

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Just don't buy the book....

I got sick of this kind of crap from Peter David.....  There are real life examples to draw from... Magic Johnson anyone???

Winneck getting some Press for something which really is not that interesting isn't worth the effort of notice.... Again shock value for the sake of shock value and a sales spike from the media addled sheep who buy into artificial hype...

 



Edited by Eric Lund on 14 October 2004 at 2:53pm
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