From: "Fred Novy" <Novy@Concentric.net>
Subject: ASL: End Of a good Thrid party Guy
Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 23:21:02 -0600
 
Sorry to see  KE Go . I only got to play one of the games " the dogs of =
War" and  It was the item that has caused me to get the ASL ' Bug ' . =
Understand Reality Sucks. Still Sorry to See ya Go. ( oh Yes My Order =
Goes out Today). Maybe if I quit Eating........
Fred Novy
Denver CO




Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:46:09 +0700
From: Laurent Cunin <laurent@centrin.net.id>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

At 11:24 PM 5/18/99 -0500, Michael & Maureen Reed wrote:
>Fellow "ASLers,"
>
>In light of the tumultuous events in our mutual hobby over the past year=
 or
>two, Mark Neukom & I have made a rather tough decision. As of June 1st,
>1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
>publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
>Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules).

This is a very sad news... probably the worst for me since Tactiques sign=
ed
off..
So I will never see the Korean modules and the splendid maps (according t=
o
descriptions) that goes with.

Anyway, you surelly have more than plenty of good reasons for that decisi=
on.
So I can only say... HUGE THANK'S for all you've done for ASL, for the
numberous hours of pleasure you gave us, and for all the future pleasure =
we
will have to play your edited scenarios.

And will silently hope for a come back one day....=20





From: "Jeff & Nadja" <americans.abroad@teleweb.at>
Subject: ASL: a day of mourning, KE signs off...
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 12:14:39 +0200

Fellow "ASLers,"

In light of the tumultuous events in our mutual hobby over the past year =
or
two, Mark Neukom & I have made a rather tough decision. As of June 1st,
1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
Advanced Squad LeaderT game (including all of its Modules).

I didn=B4t want to read that.  Can=B4t somebody talk you out of this, is =
the
market really that bad?
What does this mean for the hobby if its best scenario designer can=B4t
succeed?  What happened to darwinism?
This is tragic, KE was the only scenario designer that ever made AH look
amateur.  This is the end of an ASL
renaissance and hopefully not also the turning point Stalingrad or Kursk =
for
ASL(I know, many of you think the hobby is in its battle of Berlin).  I
liked almost every KE scenario I ever played, and  usually replayed KE
scenarios at least 3 or 4 times because they were so well thought out =
and
playable in many different ways.  Some may say that KE sometimes tried =
to be
too historical and occasionally had excessive special rules, but other =
than
rare typographical errors I can think of no other defect in KE products. =
 In
fact KE special rules such as increasing the rate# of CE tanks by 1 in
scenarios like "Tiger at the Gates" gave play an extra kick. For me, KE
stood for the peak of ASL creativity and quality, an assurance of =
thoroughly
playtested scenarios and a good time. I hope this isn=B4t really the =
end,
surprise us again someday.







From: "bwilliams" <bwilliams@pasco-isp.com>
Subject: ASL: Re: a day of mourning, KE signs off...
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:38:27 -0400

From: Jeff & Nadja <americans.abroad@teleweb.at>
>This is the end of an ASL renaissance and hopefully not also the turning point
Stalingrad or Kursk >for ASL(I know, many of you think the hobby is in its
battle of Berlin).

Stalingrad and Kursk were great Allied Victories. So, I happen to hope that
this is the Stalingrad or Kursk of the ASL hobby. How about, I hope this isn't
the Battle of France for the ASL hobby? However, I think it is the battle of
spitwater creek of the ASL Hobby.

Brian "well, I guess you could say that the Battle of Normandy was a tragic
defeat as well" Williams
bwilliams@pasco-isp.com





From: mark.robbins@autodesk.com
Subject: ASL: FW: Kinetic Energy signs off...
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 08:41:24 -0700

Sorry to see you guys go.... I can understand the difficulties involved and
wish you all the best. Thanks for your contributions to ASL

 
Mark Robbins <--- glad he ordered & recived his MM97 and MM99 and TOT3 weeks
ago





From: "Sam Belcher (Exchange)" <samb@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: ASL: RE: Kinetic Energy signs off...
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 09:19:41 -0700

Michael Reed, Mark Neukom, et al:

> In light of the tumultuous events in our mutual hobby over 
> the past year or two, Mark Neukom & I have made a rather 
> tough decision. As of June 1st, 1999, Kinetic Energy 
> Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
> publication, and sale of all products that support and 
> deal with the  Advanced Squad Leader(tm) game 

Dang! I have family in Kansas City and was planning on using them as an
excuse to go to next year's March Madness! 

Sorry to hear about this. I can only guess how much hard work goes into
producing your materials - and how much "flak" you take. 

My hat's off to all of you guys, play testers, designers, etc. 

Sam Belcher
My check's in the mail.






Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 12:04:37 -0600 (MDT)
From: Martin Snow <snowm@ucsu.colorado.edu>
Subject: ASL: Requiem for KE

Everyone should play a game to honor the passing of KE.

KE will of course be most remembered for their ToT packs.  The superb
quality of the counters in ToT#2 was a real turning point for the TPM
market.  Consumers now expect such counters in all their ASL products.

Mike and Mark clearly put a huge amount of effort into their products.
Unfortunately, their level of reward didn't quite match that amount of
work.  

Let's hope that the March Madness tournament will still continue, even if
not accompanied by new KE products.

Thanks, Mike and Mark and all the others.  Well done!

Martin Snow                           <*>                         
snowm@ucsu.colorado.edu       
http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~snowm/Home.html


Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 11:57:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: RE: Kinetic Energy signs off...

Sam,

I think they will still have a tourney.  They just won't be producing
scenarios anymore.

Pete




On Wed, 19 May 1999, Sam Belcher (Exchange) wrote:

> Michael Reed, Mark Neukom, et al:
> 
> > In light of the tumultuous events in our mutual hobby over 
> > the past year or two, Mark Neukom & I have made a rather 
> > tough decision. As of June 1st, 1999, Kinetic Energy 
> > Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
> > publication, and sale of all products that support and 
> > deal with the  Advanced Squad Leader(tm) game 
> 
> Dang! I have family in Kansas City and was planning on using them as an
> excuse to go to next year's March Madness! 
> 
> Sorry to hear about this. I can only guess how much hard work goes into
> producing your materials - and how much "flak" you take. 
> 
> My hat's off to all of you guys, play testers, designers, etc. 
> 
> Sam Belcher
> My check's in the mail.
> 







From: "Rae, Thomas (GEIS)" <Thomas.Rae@geis.ge.com>
Subject: ASL: RE: Kinetic Energy signs off...
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 15:11:42 -0400

Ah, damn.

I found the TPM market late in my ASL career-- didn't even know there =were=
TPMs 'til I joined the list last year.  Since then I've been sampling from
all of them.  I must say that one of the highest value, most professional,
fun-packed packages to arrive in my mailbox was the MM'99 Combo Special
(MM'99 + TOT#3 + MM'97 for $35!  Order yours today!).  I remember flipping
through the scenarios at the time thinking, "These are great!  I'll never
get around to playing all these guys' scenarios."  Now, sad to say, I may.

Sorry to see you go, guys.  Thanks for all the ASL fun, past and
anticipated, your work has provided us.


Thomas "How long 'til Dogs of War is eligible for the Hall of Fame?" Rae







From: "Paul Saunders" <Paul@saunders412.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: ASL: Kinetic Energy Signs Off
Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 23:20:01 +0100

To the TOT Team,

I can still remember opening the TOT1 pack and being awe-struck by the
quality of the product. 'The Thinking Man's Scenarios' we started calling
them, and it just kept getting better. I even went out and got hold of a
copy of 'No Triumphant Procession' by John Russell to read into the
background of TOT #2.   TOT#3 rates as probably the best TPM product to date
IMHO......

A sad day indeed.

The quality of your products may be equalled, but will never be beaten.

Paul Saunders

Arbroath
Scotland







From: "Fritz Tichy" 
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 01:21:30 +0200
Subject: Re: ASL: FW: Kinetic Energy signs off...

Hi,

I have to say I'm very sad. Last September I met the Californian part of the 
crew - Mark and Brian (among some other great guys: Hi, Cloyde, Rodney, 
Eddie, Doug!) and I know why they produced such great stuff: Because 
they *loved* the hobby. It is a pity that the thing never got cost-effective, 
yet knowing that now, it leaves me even more amazed how brave they 
increased the standard from product to product. No goofing around with 
stuff to earn quick $$ from customer OVR, but well thought out scenarios 
and marvellous counters.

Guys you did a great job. I was a long term playtester and the difference in 
seeing ASL couldn't have been greater. Mark et al "The "Simulators" and 
Fritz et al "The "Gamers", yet exactly the difference never led to quarrels 
but cut edges of the products. Mark gave in sometimes and we played 
through horrible SSR every now and then we normally wouldn't have waded 
through. But the big chunk of all the playtest things just were fine laid out 
interesting scenarios that were actually a joy to play - well at least the first 
three times. :-) Whenever we came up with a horrible sleaze Mark wouldn't 
say: "But you shouldn't do that!". He simple changed a minor thing and the 
whole thing got sense again. the measurements were often very cleaver 
and removed the edge indirectly. I always loved the complexity of the 
scenarios (most of them didn't have the long SSR KE was "famous" for). 
KE scenarios had (and have) most intersting VCs that led to different fights 
in replays of the same scenario and playtest was even more difficult for 
that reason. Often we had to check completly different plans.

I really hope that we will still see some scenarios of the KE crew (at least 
for the MM tournaments). I always appreciated that KE stuck to quality 
over quantity, classic OoB design and creativeness in their scenarios.
As sad as I am, I must say I really value the style of this resign high. 
Almost british - better stop producing  anything than dropping quality for 
the $. It seems not to be true that the best always survive. 

I never met Mike, but he did a dang job as coordinator, and from his posts I 
know I want to meet him at some time.

A special salute to you guys and to all fellow playtesters. It's like losing 
our 9-2 in command.

I go now for that top quality single malt scotch whiskey I kept for special 
opportunity - was supposed for a cheering one, but somehow it seems
that opening it now is perfect timing....

Fritz "Can some brits please tell me how to keep a stiff upper-lip in 
situations like this?"







Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:34:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy Signs Off



> I can still remember opening the TOT1 pack and being awe-struck by the
> quality of the product. 'The Thinking Man's Scenarios' we started calling
> them, 

THe "thinking man's scenario"!?!?!  What the hell am I going to do with
them?!?!?!  Can I get my money back?


Pete "I find it easy to laugh at myself, cause everyone else is laughing
at me also" Belford






Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:01:31 -0400
From: "Wayne M. Hadady" <wmh@hadady.com>

Michael & Maureen Reed wrote:

> As of June 1st,
> 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
> publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
> Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules).

Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
indeed good news.

If it's your personal pleasure to do so, I hope you will continue to
design and develop scenarios, etc, with your playgroup, and submit
to MMP those you'd like to see in wider distribution.  I'm sure we'd
all like to see more MMP materials, and those credited to such famous
designers as yourselves are sure to be sought and enjoyed.  Passage
of such works through MMP will mark them as the Best of the Best.

Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.

Wayne
--=20
Wayne M. Hadady   wargamer   wmh@hadady.com   http://www.hadady.com/~wmh
=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D=
-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-=3D-
Defense of Anzio Beachhead can be attributed to massed artillery fires.
This was not true in the early stages of the beachhead, but a develop-
ment over time.  We welcomed news of an enemy counterattack forming;
under the system of massed fires, the enemy took terrific punishment.

Notes on Combat Experience During the Tunisian and African Campaigns,
MAJ GEN E.N. Harmon, US Army Commanding, 2d Armd Div






From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?"Jakob_L_N=F8rgaard"?= <DKJLN@coloplast.com>
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:46:24 +0100
Subject: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...


How can anyone write such crap?

>your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby
HMMMRPH!!!!

F.Y.

Jakob




"Wayne M. Hadady" <wmh@hadady.com> on 20-05-99 15:01:31

Please respond to wmh@hadady.com







From: "Fritz Tichy" 
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:59:32 CET
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

Wayne M. Hadady wrote:

> > As of June 1st,
> > 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development=
,
> > publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
> > Advanced Squad Leader=D6 game (including all of its Modules).
>=20
> Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
> indeed good news.

Eh, Wayne, are you sarcastic? They CEASE design, development, publication
and sales of anything that has to do with ASL. That's good news?=20

> If it's your personal pleasure to do so, I hope you will continue to
> design and develop scenarios, etc, with your playgroup, and submit to M=
MP
> those you'd like to see in wider distribution.  I'm sure we'd all like =
to
> see more MMP materials, and those credited to such famous designers as
> yourselves are sure to be sought and enjoyed.  Passage of such works
> through MMP will mark them as the Best of the Best.

But they say they cease design.=20

> Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case) th=
an
> several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be just the
> beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your decision will
> lead others, by example, to similar choices.

My english still seems to suck. As much as I love the MMP products, as I=20
get Mike's post they just say that they quit doing anything except playin=
g
ASL in the future. :-(

Fritz Tichy                                                             f=







Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:23:21 -0400
From: Jan Spoor <jspoor@bmdo.mcri.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

At 10:01 AM 5/20/99 -0400, Wayne M. Hadady wrote:

>> As of June 1st,
>> 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
>> publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
>> Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules).
>
>Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
>indeed good news.

???!!!! I couldn't disagree more.

>Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
>than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
>just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
>decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.

Leaving aside the legal issues concerning copyright (AFAIK, only one TPM
has ever refused to acknowledge trademark protection), which I am not in
any way qualified to pronounce on, the decrease of outlets for a type of
product is never (IMO) a good thing. People can always choose not to
patronize a company if they do bad work or otherwise prove harmful to the
hobby, but we can't choose to patronize someone who doesn't exist. Some o=
f
KE's products have been better (IMO) than anything comparable produced by
MMP (which is in no way intended to be a slam on the latter, just praise
for the former for exceeding the "industry" standard). I don't think that
KE leaving the marketplace is a good thing for anyone, with the possible
exception of other TPMs whose products will no longer have such a high
standard against which to be measured.

Jan Spoor







Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:03:14 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...

------------------------
  From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Jakob_L_N=F8rgaard?= <DKJLN@coloplast.com>
  Subject: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...
  Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:46:24 +0100 

> How can anyone write such crap?
> 
> >your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby
> HMMMRPH!!!!

Although I am not "glad" to see KE shutting down I do understand Wayne's 
point. I personally had already reached an ASL saturation level and had made 
the personal decision to buy "Official" stuff only. With limited playing time 
and cash I would be forced to chose between products anyway. In the end the 
"Official" stuff carries a lot more advantages than TPM stuff:

1) Official Errata/Q&A;/Rules and replacement counters/pages are usually 
included.

2) I don't want to support rampant variantism (not that KE is guilty of this).

3) TPM's, no matter how good their track record, are always a gamble.

4) I want to support "Official" ASL to insure it's continuance. The hobby can 
live without KE but it will die without an "Official" ASL source for ASLRB, 
original modules/parts, and Q&A;/Errata resolution.

Fewer TPM means more revenue for Hasbro/MMP and a better chance of survival 
for the hobby in general. Plus all these designers no longer have to risk the 
"family farm" for love of the hobby. They can develop their designs then turn 
them over to Hasbro/MMP who foots the bill for publication (where all the real 
cost is).

I have all 3 ToT. They are among my most prized ASL possessions due to the 
obvious love and hard work poured into their creation. But in the end, the 
level of excellence that KE achieved appears to also have been their undoing. 
I can imagine (and Mike Reed points out) the difficulties and cost in not only 
achieving but maintaining such high standards. Only a professional 
organization with significant financial backing can hope to maintain such 
lofty heights. KE simply doesn't appear to have those kind of resources (most 
TPM don't).

> F.Y.

What does a Friendly Yak have to do with it?!

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/20/1999         10:03:14
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com


Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:09:05 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

> Much better to have a sole professional provider
	
	Wouldn't the Microsoft lawyers love to hear the judge say that on the
government case against them?!...

	take care,
	Bahadir





Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

Jan,

Gotta go with you here!  There are many of the 3rd party guys out there
that have never engaged in bickering!  Even the traditional contributers
to "Blitz-bicker" (made that up myself) have been very quite as of late.

Each of the Third party guys have contributed to this hobby in their own
way.  Having one company producing stuff is, IMHO, not a good thing.

Pete




On Thu, 20 May 1999, Jan Spoor wrote:

> At 10:01 AM 5/20/99 -0400, Wayne M. Hadady wrote:
>=20
> >> As of June 1st,
> >> 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, developmen=
t,
> >> publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
> >> Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules).
> >
> >Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
> >indeed good news.
>=20
> ???!!!! I couldn't disagree more.
>=20
> >Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
> >than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
> >just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
> >decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.
>=20
> Leaving aside the legal issues concerning copyright (AFAIK, only one TP=
M
> has ever refused to acknowledge trademark protection), which I am not i=
n
> any way qualified to pronounce on, the decrease of outlets for a type o=
f
> product is never (IMO) a good thing. People can always choose not to
> patronize a company if they do bad work or otherwise prove harmful to t=
he
> hobby, but we can't choose to patronize someone who doesn't exist. Some=
 of
> KE's products have been better (IMO) than anything comparable produced =
by
> MMP (which is in no way intended to be a slam on the latter, just prais=
e
> for the former for exceeding the "industry" standard). I don't think th=
at
> KE leaving the marketplace is a good thing for anyone, with the possibl=
e
> exception of other TPMs whose products will no longer have such a high
> standard against which to be measured.







Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:26:06 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

------------------------
  From: Bahadir Erimli <erimli@systems.caltech.edu>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...
  Date: Thu, 20 May 99 09:09:05 PDT 


> > Much better to have a sole professional provider
> 	
> 	Wouldn't the Microsoft lawyers love to hear the judge say that on the
> government case against them?!...

If MS was doing only a 5K run on their products they wouldn't be in front of a 
judge in the first place, regardless of their business practices! How about we 
keep a little perspective here.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/20/1999         11:26:06
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com







From: "Laurent CUNIN" <laurent@centrin.net.id>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 23:41:28 +0700

Wayne M. Hadady wrote:

No way I will quote any word of this message....
This probably one of the worst post I've seen on this ML in 4 years

We just learned the death of one of our favorite zine ( I speak for those
you know it... and so can only appriciate it)
We just learned that we will never see again their splendid creative design
We are still shocked by this VERY SAD News
We are still in mourning

And you come and tell us this is a good stuff!!!!.... and you take advantage
of this to proselytise in favor of a big ASL fraternity under MMP leadership
I'm surelly not against TPM working closelly with MMP, but that's not the
point
The only analogy I can make with your mail is somebody showing on the news
the body of your brother that's just die in a traffic accident and using it
to advertize for Airbags
That's totally disgusting....

I tell you... in my oppinion, you are doiing MMP a great disservice with
this post, they surrelly would'nt like this kind of advertizing

I hope you had just a momentary delirium crises when you wrote this mail...
maybe you tested the Mexican mushrooms for the first time...

Enough said.... I return to my "Thunderbolts" and "Bitter Reply" setups....
hope I can finnish before starting the "Round One" setup









Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:34:22 -0400
From: Jan Spoor <jspoor@bmdo.mcri.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...

At 10:03 AM 5/20/99 -0600, Lloyd Tate Rogers wrote:

>Although I am not "glad" to see KE shutting down I do understand Wayne's 
>point. I personally had already reached an ASL saturation level and had made 
>the personal decision to buy "Official" stuff only. 

Except Doomed Battalions, right?

>Fewer TPM means more revenue for Hasbro/MMP and a better chance of survival 
>for the hobby in general. 

That is entirely supposition, and very dubious supposition at best. I have
never heard anyone say, "Well, I've spent so much on TPM stuff lately that
I really can't afford to buy Action Pack #2." OTOH, I've seen plenty of
people so thrilled by TPM stuff that they were convinced to make the
investment in ASL. IMO, *good* TPM material encourages more ASL sales; bad
TPM material does nothing but cost some TPM money.

>Plus all these designers no longer have to risk the 
>"family farm" for love of the hobby. They can develop their designs then
turn 
>them over to Hasbro/MMP who foots the bill for publication (where all the
real 
>cost is).

They could always do that; but I don't see where the likelihood has
increased that, even if there are no creative differences, MMP are going to
be able to work through a greater quantity of submissions than in the past.
MMP are not going to take a submission and simply publish it without
review; they're goping to work them over and make changes of their own (as
I think has been amply demonstrated with their reprint of scenarios and CGs
that appeared in the TPM press first). This takes time. In fact, it takes
time that would otherwise be devoted to "official" ASL stuff from MMP. SO
this route means much less ASL material published, not more or even the
same amount.

>Only a professional 
>organization with significant financial backing can hope to maintain such 
>lofty heights. KE simply doesn't appear to have those kind of resources
(most 
>TPM don't).

No offense to MMP, but in what way do they fit this bill? These are guys
working in their spare time with extremely limited resources, much like
KE/HOB/Front Line/Schwerpunkt et al. Courtesy of Hasbro, they have somewhat
deeper pockets for covering printing costs and marketing, but Hasbro is
surely going to expect a solid return on any substantial investment.

Jan Spoor







Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:30:42 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

------------------------
  From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...
  Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 09:15:45 -0700 (PDT) 

> Gotta go with you here!  There are many of the 3rd party guys out there
> that have never engaged in bickering!  Even the traditional contributers
> to "Blitz-bicker" (made that up myself) have been very quite as of late.
> 
> Each of the Third party guys have contributed to this hobby in their own
> way.  Having one company producing stuff is, IMHO, not a good thing.

In a broad based market with lots of customers each of whom have a lot of time 
and money to expend on the product...you would likely be right. In our little 
'ol niche in a niche, in a niche market I think less would be more. 

In fact KE's closing actually shows how wrong you are. Here we have a company 
producing the pinnacle of ASL quality and yet they were never (according to 
them) operating in the black! Why? I suspect it was because there was to much 
competition diffusing the very, _VERY_ limited customer base. Only a small 
segment of the customer base can buy everything produced by everybody (I was 
one of those for a while). KE's demise only proves what many have been saying 
for a while. That is that there is a very finite ASL pie to be had. 

I believe that it is in the long term interest of the hobby for the "Official 
ASL" source to get as much of that pie as possible. ASL can survive without 
KE, HoB, CH, etc. but it will not long continue without ASLRB's, core 
modules/parts, and/or Q&A;/Errata resolution.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/20/1999         11:30:42
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com








Date: Thu, 20 May 99 10:19:12 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

> > > Much better to have a sole professional provider
> >       
> >       Wouldn't the Microsoft lawyers love to hear the judge say that on the
> > government case against them?!...
>
> If MS was doing only a 5K run on their products they wouldn't be in front of a 
> judge in the first place, regardless of their business practices! How about we 
> keep a little perspective here.

	Actually it's the idea of the matter that I find offensive not the extent.
A monopoly is always very vulnerable to abuse and has a high likelihood of ending
in stagnation and low product quality, both of which are bad for the customer. As
a high level example, you can probably discuss this issue with any Soviet
citizen when it came to shopping in the Soviet Union before 1992. If you insist on
"perspective" I would like to point out the dead-end AH drove up to with ASL
until a lively TPM market flourished (sp??) and returned the hobby from the edge
of the cliff.

	take care,
	Bahadir

PS	In most monopolies, first victim is variety and second is quality. Let's just
	hope that.........








Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 10:36:11 -0700
From: "Scott G. Stewart" <scott@sgstewart.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

"Wayne M. Hadady" wrote:
> 
> Michael & Maureen Reed wrote:
> 
> > As of June 1st,
> > 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
> > publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
> > Advanced Squad Leader? game (including all of its Modules).
> 
> Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
> indeed good news.
<snip>
> Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
> than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
> just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
> decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.

Wow, when did Darth Vader subscribe to this list?

The sorry fact is: board gaming is a dying hobby.  There's not much
profit margin in it.  As much as I wish MMP/Hasbro success (and I will
support them to the best of my ability, with my $$), it wouldn't
surprise me if they can't turn a profit.  And without that, a "sole
professional provider" is going to go down faster than the Titanic,
taking their copyrights with them.

I understand that MMP/Hasbro need to protect their intellectual
property.  However, if we want to _guarantee_ the hobby will survive,
everybody has to support the efforts of the individuals that won't let
it die.

Kinetic Energy admitted they were running in the red for years.  I can
assure you, no "sole professional provider" is going to operate at that
level for long.  In this market, personal dedication is going to talk,
and corporate profitability is going to walk.

For an example, go over to http://www.starfleetgames.com/ and compare
and contrast ASL with SFB.  They're barely surviving the seven-year
draught that hit the gaming industry, while ASL is thriving.  Task Force
Games actively fought the efforts of TPM, while TAHGC at least turned a
blind eye.

Wayne, what do you think should happen to ASL if MMP/Hasbro can't make a
go of it?  Should we just continue playing The Guards Counterattack
until we can't read our counters anymore?

-- Scott






Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:12:41 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...

------------------------
  From: Jan Spoor <jspoor@bmdo.mcri.com>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...
  Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 12:34:22 -0400 

> That is entirely supposition, and very dubious supposition at best. I have
> never heard anyone say, "Well, I've spent so much on TPM stuff lately that
> I really can't afford to buy Action Pack #2." OTOH, I've seen plenty of
> people so thrilled by TPM stuff that they were convinced to make the
> investment in ASL. IMO, *good* TPM material encourages more ASL sales; bad
> TPM material does nothing but cost some TPM money.

..."dubious supposition at best"...Jan, are your eyes brown? If they aren't 
they ought to be! What it is is Business 101 Jan my man. Less competition 
means more business for me. Ask any business man you know. Does he want more 
or less competition...can you guess what his answer will be?

Also, please explain why KE, clearly one of the best, can't cut it. Based on 
your _theory_ (Ha!) of "*good* TPM material encourages more ASL sales" KE 
ought to be buying out Hasbro. IOW, KE made some of the most highly acclaimed 
ASL products available and yet never sold enough of them to make it into the 
black...ever! So when, exactly, does your _theory_ kick in Jan? How about 
never! With an average print run of only 5K (or less) and you aren't assured 
of selling all those, even when you are the best, the possibility of competing 
with 4 or 5 other like products hitting the market at about the same time 
means you are not likely to do very well. I submit KE as prof of my 
_theory_...where is yours. 

Personally I think it is extremely selfish of anyone to expect other players 
to put their personal financial welfare on the line for ASL. It is only a game 
after all.

> .....................................Courtesy of Hasbro, they have somewhat
> deeper pockets for covering printing costs and marketing, but Hasbro is
> surely going to expect a solid return on any substantial investment.

BINGO! You are absolutely right (oddly enough)! And when Hasbro doesn't get 
that "solid return" what happens? You got it! So I will say it again...in the 
infinitesimally small ASL market less may well mean more in the long run. With 
fewer competing products on the market at any one time those products that are 
out there will likely see increased sales. 

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/20/1999         12:12:41
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com









From: "Sam Belcher (Exchange)" <samb@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:36:03 -0700

> Laurent CUNIN wrote:

> We are still shocked by this VERY SAD News
> We are still in mourning
> 
> And you come and tell us this is a good stuff!!!!.... and you 
> take advantage
> of this to proselytize in favor of a big ASL fraternity under 
> MMP leadership

I played Wayne at Winter Offensive 99 - I think our FtF game was his third -
and he beat me.... Anyway, I'm confident that Wayne is just expressing his
opinion that it would be "better" if all production went thro MMP / Hasbro.
He is not "dancing on the grave", so to speak. 

> I tell you... in my opinion, you are doing MMP a great 
> disservice with
> this post, they surely wouldn't like this kind of advertising

I'm sure that MMP had nothing to do with this post. 

Wayne's just a wild and crazy sort of guy.  :)

Sam Belcher

As soon as I read Wayne Hadady's post, I expressed a pair of Asbestos shorts
to Wayne. 

Wayne, extend your feelings! Use the shorts! 

Do not give in to the dark side... I am your Faaaaather, Wayne. 








From: "Rae, Thomas (GEIS)" <Thomas.Rae@geis.ge.com>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:40:57 -0400

Oh, jeez...

Ok, I know it's stupid to try controlling the behaviour of an online group.
On the other hand, I haven't done anything stupid since before lunch, so...

Wayne has a preference for buying only Official ASL Products.  He has some
reasoning behind it:  that it strengthens the hobby (whatever that means)
and improves the general quality of ASL material.  He's said that before, on
this list.  Personally, I think he's wrong.  I think multiple Producers
improve quality.  I also think he's missing out on some Very Good Stuff by
avoiding all TPM.  His choice.

However, I think it's OK for him to say it.  Calling him Darth Vader (who
was actually a really cute kid who just made some bad career decisions) or
giving him the old F* Y* seems uncalled for.  Also, a pretty poor way to
state an argument.  Your choice.

I mean, really, even Tate seems on the Reasonable side of this thread!

OTOH, I must say it was kind of impolitic of Wayne to say it the way he did
=and= in the middle of the wake.  (For those of you who are NDoTH, No
Dictionary or Thesaurus Handy, "impolitic" is fancy speakin' talk for
"dumb-ass move".  Wayne, ya gotta be careful when you're tossing those DC
around, man!

Ok, have I spun myself around to appeal to all sides of the discussion?
Yep, looks pretty good.  Now, shall we talk about Consistency?



Thomas.Rae@geis.ge.com
Thomas.Rae@PObox.com




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sam Belcher (Exchange) [mailto:samb@exchange.microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 2:36 PM
> To: 'Laurent CUNIN'; wmh@hadady.com; Michael & Maureen Reed
> Cc: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu; reedmt@bv.com
> Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada
> 
> 
> > Laurent CUNIN wrote:
> 
> > We are still shocked by this VERY SAD News
> > We are still in mourning
> > 
> > And you come and tell us this is a good stuff!!!!.... and you 
> > take advantage
> > of this to proselytize in favor of a big ASL fraternity under 
> > MMP leadership
> 
> I played Wayne at Winter Offensive 99 - I think our FtF game 
> was his third -
> and he beat me.... Anyway, I'm confident that Wayne is just 
> expressing his
> opinion that it would be "better" if all production went thro 
> MMP / Hasbro.
> He is not "dancing on the grave", so to speak. 
> 
> > I tell you... in my opinion, you are doing MMP a great 
> > disservice with
> > this post, they surely wouldn't like this kind of advertising
> 
> I'm sure that MMP had nothing to do with this post. 
> 
> Wayne's just a wild and crazy sort of guy.  :)
> 
> Sam Belcher
> 
> As soon as I read Wayne Hadady's post, I expressed a pair of 
> Asbestos shorts
> to Wayne. 
> 
> Wayne, extend your feelings! Use the shorts! 
> 
> Do not give in to the dark side... I am your Faaaaather, Wayne. 
> 








Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:07:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada

Sam,

> I played Wayne at Winter Offensive 99 - I think our FtF game was his third -
> and he beat me.... 

Why is the fact that he beat you signifigant?  I thought everyone did
that.  :^)

Pete







From: "Sam Belcher (Exchange)" <samb@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 13:59:36 -0700

I said: 

> > I played Wayne at Winter Offensive 99 - I think our FtF 
> game was his third -
> > and he beat me.... 

Pete wrote:
 
> Why is the fact that he beat you signifigant?  I thought everyone did
> that.  :^)

Of course, but Wayne beat me in his THIRD Face to Face game!  The man has no
sense of decency! 








Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 14:37:50 +0100
From: Frank <frankp@teleport.com>
Subject: ASL: Goodbye to KE

    Hello,

    I would like to add to the sad goodbyes to Kinetic Energy.  I think
that there products were top notch - their craft and almost always error
free products were excellent, and they opened the doors to areas of ASL
that other producers had not yet traveled.  I value my KE products; I am
green with envy for those that got the Roumanian/Hungarian scenario
pack, and I still hope that someday a deal can be made for KE products,
including those unreleased to the 'general' public might still make
their way to MMP for general publication.

    My personal thanks to Mark and Mike (and all those other folks who
helped) for the effort and sacrifice they made to our strange little
hobby, and I do hope that we see your names pop up from time to time in
the form of scenarios and articles in other publications - thanks!
--
Frank Payne
Anytown, Or.
USDA certified 8-1
mailto: frankp@teleport.com
***********************************************************************
"Don't be afraid to paint a picture of yourself, you don't need to make
it look like anybody else"
***********************************************************************
"Every stone is light slowed down tied in a knot and light is every
stone's dream"
***********************************************************************
 Please support your local, independent bookseller!!!  - www.powells.com

***********************************************************************











From: Robert Smith <rsmith@metier.com>
Subject: ASL: The ASL Market (was: KE)
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 15:56:33 -0700

Hi gang,

I am very sorry to hear about KE. I am sorry that Mike and Mark and Co. have
been forced into making the difficult decision to give up on their labor of
love. I am sorry if market pressures and the realities and dynamics of the
big business world made it impossible to enjoy keeping KE alive. Those are
truly unfortunate circumstances. My thanks go out to these gentlemen and
their associates for all of their efforts and hard work.

Lemme see if I can voice an opinion without stepping on anyone's toes or
inciting any riots. I don't mean any of this to be inflamatory. 

SAVING THE PATIENT

I understand that TPMs have kept ASL alive on life support. From what I can
tell, ASL actually died somewhere in the early '90s. The TPMs kept forcing
life into its inert carcass and actually managed to find a pulse. Now there
is a chance to resusitate ASL. I hate to say this, as I know how hard so
many TPMs have worked, and I know ASL would be dead without them, but it may
be time for the paramedics to stand aside and turn the patient over to the
emergency room staff.

Let me try to show you how I come to this position.

There has been much talk about what is "good for ASL". I'm curious to hear
what people mean by this. 

FEEDING THE BEAST

I suspect that many people (players) have a fairly centrist view of ASL's
success, only considering their own wants and needs. These folks have been
playing (A)SL for twenty years. Some have (amazingly) actually played a
large portion of what has been produced. Their concept of "good for ASL"
means that they will continue to be provided with new material that they can
use to play with the same group of 5 guys (if they are lucky) that they've
been playing with for years. Or they just want new material to open up, read
through, and stick up on a shelf.

These people are insatiable. They devour ASL material. They rip through
scenario packs and gobble up campaign games and come out hungry and looking
for more. Such players require a constant and endless stream of new
products. These people have been the reason for the success of ASL. These
people are most of us on this list. [I would be one of these people, but I
have only been in the hobby for about a year. I'm still trying to eat my way
out of the mountain of products I have panic-bought thus far :-)]

The TPM market has been ideal as a food supplement to keep these ravenous
beasts interested over the last 5 years. The market has been suffused with
"amateur" product. Now, I don't mean that in a bad way. Some of these
products are top quality. All I mean by "amateur" is that some guys who
loved playing the game decided to create their own scenarios. These products
have kept the core group of players rolling in ASL like pigs in slop.

I think it is clear that without the TPMs, ASL would not exist today. Some
stalwarts would still be playing "that old game", but as they fell away from
the hobby, the hobby would have ceased to exist. 

HOW LONG CAN THIS GO ON?

When MMP came out with Doomed Battalions there were immediate cries of
"Where's my Armies of Oblivion?". ASL producers have been slaving to keep us
fed, and it seems it will never be enough. The constant cry is "More! More!
More!". Can any business actually survive under those circumstances? How
much more can ASL produce to keep us enticed? After Armies of Oblivion do we
get a rare Italian bicycles module? The market for every new module will
shrink. The hobby is suffocating. 

I suspect that when each new product comes out there is a buying frenzy.
Then demand drops off. Is it truly worth the effort to produce a product
with such a limited sales duration?

NEW BLOOD

I know its been said before, but with the recent discussion it bears
repeating. We need to bring new players into the hobby or ASL is dead. For
Hasbro or any entity to survive while supporting ASL they need to get more
of a return for their efforts than the current player base, rabid and
ravenous as it may be, can provide. Otherwise it will simply not be worth
the effort. Monopoly is still in print because generation after generation
has been drawn to it. Hasbro needs to start seeing profits from reprints of
the ASLRB and from sales of Beyond Valor, Paratroper, and Yanks (in whatever
repackaged from they emerge). We can not support the hobby ourselves. The
market has got to replenish itself or it will stagnate.

Even at present the minority of new players in the hobby cry out for access
to old material. We want the scenarios from the General. We want Streets of
Fire. Why are these products not provided? There is not enough interest.
Everyone but the newbies already has all the General scenarios. There simply
aren't enough newbies to support the production of products even if the
design of those products has already been completed. New blood would make
the vast collection of musty ASL designs new again. For ASL to survive, this
is a resource which must be exploited.

Who is going to get this job done? MMP have made noises about understanding
the importance of creating introductory modules. This is good. The entire
game system has been designed with the assumption that its players have been
active since 1976. That design must change. But such a project takes an
immense amount of time and effort. Will Hasbro be patient enough for that
job to get done? How can MMP both maintain the effort to develop new product
to "feed the beast" while concentrating effort on repackaging ASL?

A CONCERTED EFFORT TO SURVIVE

I would very much like to see MMP and some of the TPMs working together. I
am excited to see projects like Blood Reef Tarawa coming out under the
official ASL banner. I think this type of cooperation is going to be
essential. Furthermore, I would like to see MMP start concentrating on the
"newbie module" or "repackaging of ASL". In order to do this they will need
to loosen the reigns on some of their collaborative efforts. I would very
much like to see some the the TPM entities remain in existence even while
they work closely with MMP, hopefully retaining creative control of the
development process. I would love to see the official Hasbro product "HASL 5
- Heat of Battle's Blood Reef: Tarawa". 

Mostly, I want MMP to be able to continue to generate revenue so they can
stay alive while they figure out how to market to new players. I must
repeat. We NEED new players. It is not merely desireable. No new players =
death to ASL. 

MMP must spend time on the repackaging of ASL.

MMP must continue to show profits for Hasbro.

Sounds to me like some of the excellent creative talent out there needs to
pitch in either to develop the newbie module or to present MMP with good
material while they work on the newbie module. I am not privvy to the
undercurrents of the sea of ASL producers. All I can hope is that Hasbro is
not alienating the talent that has kept their new acquisition alive. I pray
that Hasbro is doing everything in their power to entice talented designers
to work with them to revitalize ASL. I hope no one is burning any bridges or
making any enemies. Our world is too small for that.

Only new players can truly be "good for ASL". Any effort to do anything but
entice in new players is simply delaying the inevitable. 

That's all I have to say about that.

Bob








From: Blachorn@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 18:57:57 EDT
Subject: Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada

I was going to stay out of this one....... deleted quite a few posts...... 
but, oh well......

Guess my first clue that this one was way out there when someone stated 
somthing along the lines that even Tate was being reasonable about this 
one.......

So check the ***** for my .02 cents worth if you care.....  Sam/Tate just 
delete now.....

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 11:36:03 -0700
From: "Sam Belcher (Exchange)" <samb@exchange.microsoft.com>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada

> Laurent CUNIN wrote:

> We are still shocked by this VERY SAD News
> We are still in mourning
> 
> And you come and tell us this is a good stuff!!!!.... and you 
> take advantage
> of this to proselytize in favor of a big ASL fraternity under 
> MMP leadership

I played Wayne at Winter Offensive 99 - I think our FtF game was his third -
and he beat me.... Anyway, I'm confident that Wayne is just expressing his
opinion that it would be "better" if all production went thro MMP / Hasbro.
He is not "dancing on the grave", so to speak. 

********** sure sounds like dancing on the grave, at no point did KE state 
they were doing it for the good of the hobby.  While I do not have anything 
against MMP [else I wouldn't be buying thier product], this sure as hell 
doesn't help the hobby IMO.  Yes Tate a business would perfer NO 
competition....  however that sucks from the consumers position.......  of 
course if your working for MMP I can certainly see that view point.

> I tell you... in my opinion, you are doing MMP a great 
> disservice with
> this post, they surely wouldn't like this kind of advertising

I'm sure that MMP had nothing to do with this post. 

*******I'm glad to see that MMP hasn't jumped on this one, it would certainly 
lower my respect for them if it did.  One should never disturb an Irish 
wake.......  tends to add to the number of coffins needed.  :-)
Bottom line is that the hobby has seen a sad day indeed.

Wayne's just a wild and crazy sort of guy.  :)

*****Reminds me of a guy who shot himself in the foot screwing around in boot 
camp with an M16 on full auto..

Sam Belcher

As soon as I read Wayne Hadady's post, I expressed a pair of Asbestos shorts
to Wayne. 

*****I'd suggest wearing them on your hands, prevents typing........

Wayne, extend your feelings! Use the shorts! 

Do not give in to the dark side... I am your Faaaaather, Wayne. 

*******To late.......................








From: "andrewsn" <andrewsn@ocean.com.au>
Subject: ASL: KE
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 06:11:08 +1000

G'day Mates

A Sad day for ASL.  Kinetic Energy gone.  These guys made sure that when you
bought something from them it was going to be worth the money and the wait.
And I dont silently wish, but publicly wish that one day you'll will change
your mind and come back.  Kinetic Energy. Lest we Forget
===========================
Yours in ASL
Neil Andrews
Army Group South ASL Group
Melbourne Australia
andrewsn@ocean.com.au
===========================






From: BKMartin26@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 19:41:18 EDT
Subject: ASL: Catching up ...

In between finalizing the purchase of my first house and plotting my strategy 
for my latest VASL games ... I've taken a few minutes to catch up on the 
volumes of mail that have graced my mailbox these past few days.  So ... 
here's my two cents on the following:

KE's DEMISE:  Although it's widely known that I don't own any TPM stuff, it's 
still a rather sad day in the ASL Community that one of our brethren has 
given up the ghost due to time demands and no profits. 

Mike, I'm sorry that it had to come to this.  The praise that KE products 
have received on this list is, I'm sure, heart-warming ... but that alone 
didn't pay the bills.

I don't think that the disappearance of TPMs is a *good* thing for the hobby. 
 Now, *some* TPMs *deserve* to go out of business due to shoddy products ... 
but anytime a *quality* TPM goes out, we *all* suffer.  Even the guys at MMP. 
 

Curt doesn't agree with me on this point, but I'll repeat it anyway.  Every 
TPM that produces a *quality* product (if you haven't *seen* the HOW pack ... 
well, words don't do it justice) raises the bar that much more for MMP.  Curt 
thinks that Hasbro sets the bar high enough already.  However, for every 
high-quality, full-color scenario pack that comes out ... it makes us as 
ASLers even hungrier for like materials.  *That* raises our expectations for 
Curt, Brian, Russ, Carl, Steve, Chuck and even LuAnn!!

OBA:  Nice thread, even though I *still* don't understand OBA.  Anything that 
gives Steve Pleva a reason to drop concealment to comment *must* be a 
worthwhile post (having watched him at the Open, he seemed a rather serious 
and dedicated player ... I wanted to ask questions ... but he looked so 
doggone studious).

For myself, I've created my own little variant rules for my own use in 
solitaire play (which I'll post at the ASLBB someday).  It works for me, and 
that's all that matters.

VASL PROBLEMS:  I haven't experienced *any* of the problems mentioned, and 
I'm running on a Win98 machine with a 300mhz PII.  Anyway, even with all the 
little bugs that folks seem to be commenting on ... for shareware ... it's 
pretty damn good!!!!  Keep it up, RK and the rest of the gang!!!

That's about it ... thankfully, no one started anything controversial ... yet 
:)

Brien






From: Celttag@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 20:13:18 EDT
Subject: ASL: State of the Hobby

I'm sorry to hear KE is signing off. I don't have any of their products 
(yet), but people I know who have them say that they are excellant. I have 
some other TMP products, and generally am very satisfied with them. I think 
that the state of the hobby is good. I'm just getting back in it after years 
of lapse, and am pleasently surprised with the enthusiasm I have found here 
in Houston, and from the discourse on this list. I'd like to see KE stick 
around, just because more marketers means more product, which means more 
competition for that gaming dollar, which must mean better quality asl 
products. Someone posted earlier that this was the "stalingrad" of the hobby. 
And someone answered back that that was a great allied victory, and so the 
hobby should continue to grow and improve to paraphrase. I lean towards that 
attitude. In fact I more than lean towards it, I cross the line in the sand 
to the healthy side   camp. I'm not getting back into a loser of a hobby 
after all this time. I'm getting back to the best hobby I've ever been 
involved in. Sincerly, Tom in Houston.






From: ERZEMAN@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 21:04:15 EDT
Subject: ASL: RE: KE Signs Off...

Mike Reed wrote:

<< As of June 1st, 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease desi=
gn,=20
development, publication, and sale of all products that support and deal =
with=20
the Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules). >>

Dear Mark and Mike,

Steve and I are both very sad to see you guys end your contribtuion to ou=
r=20
hobby. It seems like yesterday that we were all sitting outside the ASL r=
oom=20
at the 1995 ORCON with wide grins and excited conversation as each of us=20
described our plans for our new future in ASL design. I remember how much=
=20
like a kid-with-a-new-toy I felt.

I know this must be hard for you, because I know how hard it would be for=
 me=20
to make the same decision. Fortunately, your work and creations will stay=
=20
with us like monuments and won't run under a bridge like so much water...=
your=20
games will continue to be played and pursued by all of use for many, many=
=20
years to come.

Thanks for all of the fun in the past, and good luck to both of you in th=
e=20
future.

Eddie Z
Steve D
HOB







From: "Mike Conklin" <conklinmike@hotmail.com>
Subject: ASL: RE: KE Signs Off...
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 03:38:14 GMT

Hi all,

I would just like to say, that I too am sorry to see the end of KE. I have 
enjoyed their scenarios, and products. I think their brand of exacting 
detail will be missed.

I really would like it if KE could submitt their work on the minor axis or 
Korea to MMP. I realize that this is between KE and MMP and the list would 
not be the place for either party to discuss this until a product is 
released. We don't need "vapor" ware. I do feel a version of the late war 
Romainians in AoO or a Korea module would be great!

Good Luck to Mike and Mark in all you do in the future. Thanks for the Great 
Work.

Mike Conklin
General 6+3
conklinmike@hotmail.com
mike8800@freewwweb.com


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com





Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 00:37:23 -0400
From: Daniel Dolan <u1012129@warwick.net>
Subject: ASL: KE Signs Off... and Dr Rob's still a virgin

ERZEMAN@aol.com wrote:
>=20
> Mike Reed wrote:
>=20
> << As of June 1st, 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease de=
sign,
> development, publication, and sale of all products that support and dea=
l with
> the Advanced Squad Leader=99 game (including all of its Modules).>> 
>=20
> Dear Mark and Mike,
>=20
> Thanks for all of the fun in the past, and good luck to both of you in =
the
> future.

Having just returned to the ASLML due to a computer fry and reading the
KE news I have to say I agree with Eddie and Steve.  Mike and Co.  You
guys will be missed.

To those who would try to use my dating service be assured of it's
quality.  I would never allow any of my escorts to go to Dr Robs room.=20
Not that any would.

PHLEGM







Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 12:04:21 +0700
From: Laurent Cunin <laurent@centrin.net.id>
Subject: RE: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off... Hadady dada

At 03:40 PM 5/20/99 -0400, Rae, Thomas (GEIS) wrote:
>Wayne has a preference for buying only Official ASL Products.  He has some
>reasoning behind it:  that it strengthens the hobby (whatever that means)
>and improves the general quality of ASL material.  He's said that before, on
>this list.  Personally, I think he's wrong.  I think multiple Producers
>improve quality.  I also think he's missing out on some Very Good Stuff by
>avoiding all TPM.  His choice.

Wayne is entitle to have strong oppinions about TPMs and MMP, and also to
express them on this list anytime... BUT doing it on the reply to a
deceased announcement of one of the best TPMs is a total lack of respect.
Mike and the KE guys have really devoted their time and money to offer us
hours of pleasure, they deserve at least a little respect from us.
Last post on this








Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:34:55 -0400
From: John Brock <jwb3@city-net.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

I think Wayne could have picked a better time or a better way to express
the sentiment that he voiced, but that doesn't cause me to dismiss his
argument out of hand.  Will the death of KE lead to a stronger MMP?  I
suppose it's possible.  It's true that, due to limited time and money,
there are far more products out there right now than I will actually buy.
And I suppose that if KE and MMP both developed separate Korea modules, a
situation might actually arise where I would have to choose one or the
other, and Hasbro might end up suffering.

But up to now that has not been an issue.  Of all the major TPMs, KE has
been the one [well, EXC: SP] which has competed the least with MMP.  It has
not been a HASL house like HOB or CH; it has not produced counters which
MMP was expected to ever get around to creating.  And it has consistently
had very high quality in several ways.  I am very sorry to see it go;
without meaning to disrespect SP or HOB, KE products have been the ones I
most looked forward to ever since TOT#1.

Tate wrote:
>What it is is Business 101 Jan my man. Less competition means 
>more business for me. Ask any business man you know. Does he want 
>more or less competition...can you guess what his answer will be?

For 90% of them, yeah, the answer will be "less competition".  For a few,
though, the answer will be "You bet I want competition!  It keeps us on our
toes.  Without competition we'd just get in a rut and stop doing our best."
 And this is often the answer of the most successful businessmen.

Nor do I think that MMP really needs to fear competition from companies
like KE and SP which focus on scenario packs.  These packs rely on MMP for
their components; indeed, TOT#2 was what DROVE my purchase of AP#1, to get
the so-frequently-used boards 42 and 43.  Similarly, HOB's SS Pack 1 makes
extensive use of the new board 45.  It is with the HASLs that competition
really might put a serious dent in MMP's sales.  But this is also the place
where there is the most room for innovation, as TTB (despite its flaws)
demonstrates with its colorful and complex map.

But what concerns me most about the death of KE is the implication that
money was not the primary issue.  I noted what Mike said about "tumultuous
events" and receiving "grief" because of being a TPM, and these statements
worry me.  Wayne painted a rosy picture of the former TPMs and MMP all
consolidating under one roof to strengthen the hobby, but I hardly think
it's that simple.  If Hasbro is using strong-arm tactics against the TPMs
it is unlikely that they will be happy to work under the same umbrella with
MMP, regardless of whether the latter had anything to do with the tactics
or not.

And while it may not be an issue for Messrs. Reed and Neukom, I have heard
from other designers in the hobby about difficulties getting along with the
MMP gang, particularly with regard to how much control the designers have
over the final product; and certainly the fact that Stonne and TTB did not
get published under the MMP banner is relevant.  As TPMs disappear from the
playing field, plenty of the stuff that they would have published is simply
going to vanish into oblivion, and that will be the hobby's loss.

John








From: "Mark McGilchrist" <mmjm@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:33:17 +1000

Hmmm,

Now I'm not wishing to quibble with Mark and Mike, but somehow I
don't think that the market pressures were necessarily those that
drove them out of business. If I recall correctly, there were
products that people were crying to buy such as the personalised
leaders and the Hungarian / Romanian pack, but these products were
limited by them to extremely small quantities. I'm assuming this
was their choice, and that production of additional packs at the
time was not out of the question, and they could have made at
least enough to cover the production and mail costs. I don't think
they ever could have made a living out of it, paid for their
research time or anything like that, but sufficient to cover their
immediate tangible costs.

I'd suggest that you look more towards the 'satisfaction' side of
things, rather than the economic. The ASL community as a whole is
a pretty harsh audience. Nothing is ever quick enough, playtested
enough. complex enough, simple enough, in plain English, in
ASLese, or some other hassle. Then having to put up with the
actual hassle of design (the fun bit), playtesting (gets dull),
proof-reading (very dull) and production (technical). Finally at
the end, you get a few thanks, a few questions and review by some
muggins who just took it out of the pack, skimmed through the
rules and made a judgement. The SSR are too complicated! Didn't
really read them, didn't play them, just looking at it was enough
for the review/whine. The only thing usually worthwhile in these
reviews are usually the component listings and ratings.

Frankly, I could scarcely believe some of the comments surrounding
the Hungarian tournament pack. There was outrage that money wasn't
enough. People DEMANDED that they could buy it. It was like
watching a spoiled child have a tantrum, and there was Mike Reed
sending out nice, careful, pleasant replies when I'd be saying
GROW UP! I'd have bailed right there.

Mark McGilchrist
mmjm@ozemail.com.au
----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Smith <rsmith@metier.com>
Sent: 21 May, 1999 8:56
Subject: ASL: The ASL Market (was: KE)


> Hi gang,
>
> I am very sorry to hear about KE. I am sorry that Mike and Mark
and Co. have
> been forced into making the difficult decision to give up on
their labor of
> love. I am sorry if market pressures and the realities and
dynamics of the
> big business world made it impossible to enjoy keeping KE alive.
Those are
> truly unfortunate circumstances. My thanks go out to these
gentlemen and
> their associates for all of their efforts and hard work.
>
> Lemme see if I can voice an opinion without stepping on anyone's
toes or
> inciting any riots. I don't mean any of this to be inflamatory.
>
> SAVING THE PATIENT
>
> I understand that TPMs have kept ASL alive on life support. From
what I can
> tell, ASL actually died somewhere in the early '90s. The TPMs
kept forcing
> life into its inert carcass and actually managed to find a
pulse. Now there
> is a chance to resusitate ASL. I hate to say this, as I know how
hard so
> many TPMs have worked, and I know ASL would be dead without
them, but it may
> be time for the paramedics to stand aside and turn the patient
over to the
> emergency room staff.
>
> Let me try to show you how I come to this position.
>
> There has been much talk about what is "good for ASL". I'm
curious to hear
> what people mean by this.
>
> FEEDING THE BEAST
>
> I suspect that many people (players) have a fairly centrist view
of ASL's
> success, only considering their own wants and needs. These folks
have been
> playing (A)SL for twenty years. Some have (amazingly) actually
played a
> large portion of what has been produced. Their concept of "good
for ASL"
> means that they will continue to be provided with new material
that they can
> use to play with the same group of 5 guys (if they are lucky)
that they've
> been playing with for years. Or they just want new material to
open up, read
> through, and stick up on a shelf.
>
> These people are insatiable. They devour ASL material. They rip
through
> scenario packs and gobble up campaign games and come out hungry
and looking
> for more. Such players require a constant and endless stream of
new
> products. These people have been the reason for the success of
ASL. These
> people are most of us on this list. [I would be one of these
people, but I
> have only been in the hobby for about a year. I'm still trying
to eat my way
> out of the mountain of products I have panic-bought thus far
:-)]
>
> The TPM market has been ideal as a food supplement to keep these
ravenous
> beasts interested over the last 5 years. The market has been
suffused with
> "amateur" product. Now, I don't mean that in a bad way. Some of
these
> products are top quality. All I mean by "amateur" is that some
guys who
> loved playing the game decided to create their own scenarios.
These products
> have kept the core group of players rolling in ASL like pigs in
slop.
>
> I think it is clear that without the TPMs, ASL would not exist
today. Some
> stalwarts would still be playing "that old game", but as they
fell away from
> the hobby, the hobby would have ceased to exist.
>
> HOW LONG CAN THIS GO ON?
>
> When MMP came out with Doomed Battalions there were immediate
cries of
> "Where's my Armies of Oblivion?". ASL producers have been
slaving to keep us
> fed, and it seems it will never be enough. The constant cry is
"More! More!
> More!". Can any business actually survive under those
circumstances? How
> much more can ASL produce to keep us enticed? After Armies of
Oblivion do we
> get a rare Italian bicycles module? The market for every new
module will
> shrink. The hobby is suffocating.
>
> I suspect that when each new product comes out there is a buying
frenzy.
> Then demand drops off. Is it truly worth the effort to produce a
product
> with such a limited sales duration?
>
> NEW BLOOD
>
> I know its been said before, but with the recent discussion it
bears
> repeating. We need to bring new players into the hobby or ASL is
dead. For
> Hasbro or any entity to survive while supporting ASL they need
to get more
> of a return for their efforts than the current player base,
rabid and
> ravenous as it may be, can provide. Otherwise it will simply not
be worth
> the effort. Monopoly is still in print because generation after
generation
> has been drawn to it. Hasbro needs to start seeing profits from
reprints of
> the ASLRB and from sales of Beyond Valor, Paratroper, and Yanks
(in whatever
> repackaged from they emerge). We can not support the hobby
ourselves. The
> market has got to replenish itself or it will stagnate.
>
> Even at present the minority of new players in the hobby cry out
for access
> to old material. We want the scenarios from the General. We want
Streets of
> Fire. Why are these products not provided? There is not enough
interest.
> Everyone but the newbies already has all the General scenarios.
There simply
> aren't enough newbies to support the production of products even
if the
> design of those products has already been completed. New blood
would make
> the vast collection of musty ASL designs new again. For ASL to
survive, this
> is a resource which must be exploited.
>
> Who is going to get this job done? MMP have made noises about
understanding
> the importance of creating introductory modules. This is good.
The entire
> game system has been designed with the assumption that its
players have been
> active since 1976. That design must change. But such a project
takes an
> immense amount of time and effort. Will Hasbro be patient enough
for that
> job to get done? How can MMP both maintain the effort to develop
new product
> to "feed the beast" while concentrating effort on repackaging
ASL?
>
> A CONCERTED EFFORT TO SURVIVE
>
> I would very much like to see MMP and some of the TPMs working
together. I
> am excited to see projects like Blood Reef Tarawa coming out
under the
> official ASL banner. I think this type of cooperation is going
to be
> essential. Furthermore, I would like to see MMP start
concentrating on the
> "newbie module" or "repackaging of ASL". In order to do this
they will need
> to loosen the reigns on some of their collaborative efforts. I
would very
> much like to see some the the TPM entities remain in existence
even while
> they work closely with MMP, hopefully retaining creative control
of the
> development process. I would love to see the official Hasbro
product "HASL 5
> - Heat of Battle's Blood Reef: Tarawa".
>
> Mostly, I want MMP to be able to continue to generate revenue so
they can
> stay alive while they figure out how to market to new players. I
must
> repeat. We NEED new players. It is not merely desireable. No new
players =
> death to ASL.
>
> MMP must spend time on the repackaging of ASL.
>
> MMP must continue to show profits for Hasbro.
>
> Sounds to me like some of the excellent creative talent out
there needs to
> pitch in either to develop the newbie module or to present MMP
with good
> material while they work on the newbie module. I am not privvy
to the
> undercurrents of the sea of ASL producers. All I can hope is
that Hasbro is
> not alienating the talent that has kept their new acquisition
alive. I pray
> that Hasbro is doing everything in their power to entice
talented designers
> to work with them to revitalize ASL. I hope no one is burning
any bridges or
> making any enemies. Our world is too small for that.
>
> Only new players can truly be "good for ASL". Any effort to do
anything but
> entice in new players is simply delaying the inevitable.
>
> That's all I have to say about that.
>
> Bob
>







Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 07:07:37 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

------------------------
  From: John Brock <jwb3@city-net.com>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...
  Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 02:34:55 -0400 
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu

> For 90% of them, yeah, the answer will be "less competition".  For a few,
> though, the answer will be "You bet I want competition!  It keeps us on our
> toes.  Without competition we'd just get in a rut and stop doing our best."
>  And this is often the answer of the most successful businessmen.

The most successful business men are the ones that eliminate the competition 
at every opportunity. It amazes me how men who are into military history can 
say "I want competition" when war is _ALL_ about eliminating the 
"competition".

BTW, one of the _most_ successful business men in history is Bill Gates. 
Reckon he wakes up every morning and thinks "I love my competition"!

Besides, it is not so much that KE competes directly with MMP but rather it is 
the fact that there are a limited number of ASL customers and these customers 
can't/won't buy everything produced. It is not the risk that KE would produce 
an identical product. It is that there is a limited ASL dollar for buying 
_ANY_ ASL product and the more (even if different) products out there the 
fewer of each product will be bought.

> Nor do I think that MMP really needs to fear competition from companies
> like KE and SP which focus on scenario packs.  These packs rely on MMP for
> their components; indeed, TOT#2 was what DROVE my purchase of AP#1, to get
> the so-frequently-used boards 42 and 43.  Similarly, HOB's SS Pack 1 makes
> extensive use of the new board 45.  It is with the HASLs that competition
> really might put a serious dent in MMP's sales.  But this is also the place
> where there is the most room for innovation, as TTB (despite its flaws)
> demonstrates with its colorful and complex map.

But MMP also produces the Journal which is pretty much an optional product. 
However, I bet MMP sells more Journals than AP's and/or modules. If a guy has 
only $30 bucks to spend and he has to choose between the Journal or ToT#4 then 
one of those two products is not going to be bought.

> But what concerns me most about the death of KE is the implication that
> money was not the primary issue.  I noted what Mike said about "tumultuous
> events" and receiving "grief" because of being a TPM, and these statements
> worry me.  Wayne painted a rosy picture of the former TPMs and MMP all
> consolidating under one roof to strengthen the hobby, but I hardly think
> it's that simple.  If Hasbro is using strong-arm tactics against the TPMs
> it is unlikely that they will be happy to work under the same umbrella with
> MMP, regardless of whether the latter had anything to do with the tactics
> or not.

Hasbro is a successful business concern. As such they will look to reduce the 
competition where ever possible. Particularly if that competition is only able 
to compete via copyright violation. Again I find it ironic that "wargammers" 
would have a problem with Hasbro doing all it can to succeed..."War is 
Hell"...well business is much like war.

> And while it may not be an issue for Messrs. Reed and Neukom, I have heard
> from other designers in the hobby about difficulties getting along with the
> MMP gang, particularly with regard to how much control the designers have
> over the final product; and certainly the fact that Stonne and TTB did not
> get published under the MMP banner is relevant.  As TPMs disappear from the
> playing field, plenty of the stuff that they would have published is simply
> going to vanish into oblivion, and that will be the hobby's loss.

I would suggest not using any CH products as an example of letting the 
designers have a "free hand". Many, _MANY_, CH products could have benefitted 
from some tighter "after design" production control. In fact a lot of CH 
products look like they went straight from the designers notebook to 
production. If MMP sends out a shoddy product they have to answer not only to 
the ASL consumer but to Hasbro as well. BTW, Hasbro can pull MMP's plug at any 
second. If KE, CH, etc. produce a shoddy product who do they answer to? I 
think MMP has a lot more pressure on them to produce quality than any TPM 
does, with or without the competition factor.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/21/1999         07:07:37
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com








Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 08:05:46 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

------------------------
  From: Mark McGilchrist <mmjm@ozemail.com.au>
  Subject: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 22:33:17 +1000 
  To: Robert Smith <rsmith@metier.com>, advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu

> Frankly, I could scarcely believe some of the comments surrounding
> the Hungarian tournament pack. There was outrage that money wasn't
> enough. People DEMANDED that they could buy it. It was like
> watching a spoiled child have a tantrum, and there was Mike Reed
> sending out nice, careful, pleasant replies when I'd be saying
> GROW UP! I'd have bailed right there.

So, basically, you are saying that KE was treated just like every other SL/ASL 
producer since the beginning. OK, so what is your point?

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/21/1999         08:05:46
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com










Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:06:18 -0400
From: John Brock <jwb3@city-net.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

At 07:07 AM 5/21/99 , Lloyd Tate Rogers wrote:
>BTW, one of the _most_ successful business men in history is Bill Gates. 
>Reckon he wakes up every morning and thinks "I love my competition"!

Obviously, he is a counterexample.  And yet, I seem to recall even him
investing a rather large chunk of change in a company called Apple not too
long ago.


>But MMP also produces the Journal which is pretty much an optional product. 
>However, I bet MMP sells more Journals than AP's and/or modules. If a guy
has 
>only $30 bucks to spend and he has to choose between the Journal or ToT#4
then 
>one of those two products is not going to be bought.

Umm...  Let me see here.  The Journal is "pretty much an optional product"
and yet you bet (and it wouldn't surprise me if you are right) that MMP
sells more of THEM than it does of the NON-optional products?  In that
case, people are hardly treating the Journal as an optional product, are
they?  And frankly, if a guy chooses to spend his money on TOT#4 instead of
on the official MMP product, well, why would he do so?  Either 1) because
the TOT item is HIGHER QUALITY, or because it appeals to his personal
interests and the Journal does not.  So either way, if KE ceases to exist,
and Mike and Mark are not brought into the MMP fold in the wake of that
event, then that customer's needs are not being met. 


>Hasbro is a successful business concern. As such they will look to reduce
the 
>competition where ever possible. Particularly if that competition is only
able 
>to compete via copyright violation. Again I find it ironic that "wargammers" 
>would have a problem with Hasbro doing all it can to succeed..."War is 

>Hell"...well business is much like war.

Sure, and that is their right - but in the long run, that action may not
turn out to be best for either our hobby OR their business interest in it.
Apple versus PCs is the classic example.  Apple refused to allow
competition, IBM allowed it, and PCs now dominate the market.

As for "business is war", some of us play wargames for reasons other than
being competitive.  It doesn't surprise me that Tate Rogers would expect
all wargamers to agree that business is about crushing the enemy.  But in
fact, I would say that business is much like politics - and as someone
we've all heard of said (roughly), "War is an extension of politics by
other means."  Crushing the competition is just one way of promoting your
business, and not necessarily the best one.


>> And while it may not be an issue for Messrs. Reed and Neukom, I have heard
>> from other designers in the hobby about difficulties getting along with the
>> MMP gang, particularly with regard to how much control the designers have
>> over the final product; and certainly the fact that Stonne and TTB did not
>> get published under the MMP banner is relevant.  As TPMs disappear from the
>> playing field, plenty of the stuff that they would have published is simply
>> going to vanish into oblivion, and that will be the hobby's loss.
>
>I would suggest not using any CH products as an example of letting the 
>designers have a "free hand". Many, _MANY_, CH products could have
benefitted 
>from some tighter "after design" production control. In fact a lot of CH 
>products look like they went straight from the designers notebook to 
>production. 

Agreed, but not the point.  It is possible to improve the quality of a
product without usurping control over the product, as long as the designer
doesn't say "No, I'm sorry, I couldn't care less if it's high-quality, I
want it the way I DESIGNED it."  The fact that CH has failed to do good
after-design work does not mean that it's impossible for ANYONE to meet
both goals.

>If MMP sends out a shoddy product they have to answer not only to 
>the ASL consumer but to Hasbro as well. BTW, Hasbro can pull MMP's plug at
any 
>second. If KE, CH, etc. produce a shoddy product who do they answer to? I 
>think MMP has a lot more pressure on them to produce quality than any TPM 
>does, with or without the competition factor.

Not necessarily.  They have a lot more pressure to make money.  Businesses
do not always perceive higher quality as a way to make money.  Sometimes
they view lower quality as a way to reduce the cost of the product and thus
increase the profit margin.  As long as Hasbro continues to give them a
free rein, or feels that quality is the answer, then MMP's innate desire to
produce quality products will serve them well.  But if Hasbro ever decides
that it needs to exert more control and that reducing quality is the
answer, then we'll be screwed without any competition to turn to.

John








Date: Fri, 21 May 99 10:50:09 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

        I've been told many times before that it doesn't make much sense to argue
with Tate when he's on a roll. I've been told that it's like wrestling with a pig:
You get muddy, but the pig likes it. I know very well that it is exactly the case.
On the other hand, this general attitude of the List was what drove our old friend
Patrik Manlig out of the List. Many people think that he quit because he was
embarrassed when he, by mistake, sent to the List an insult mail that he intended to
send to Tate. That is not true; he quit because he couldn't tolerate being on the
same mailing list with a demagouge (sp?) like Tate and a majority that quietly
tolerates him.
 
        I must admit that's also what I do most of the time. I'm just as guilty. In
this situation, though, I've had enough. I'm sure people can handle the news of the
demise of KE without the crap coming out of Tate's computer.
 
        I don't mind that people might have positive reactions to the news we got
the day before. It's the last two mails with such petty arguements commenting on
others mails that pushed me over the edge finally. Such petty and pointless
arguements... Especially the last one. Why? Why the stubbornness, the frequency,
the persistance? Is it from some sort of loyalty to MMP (that appears to be the
object of his affectionate defense)? However, why would this be from a person who
up to a year or more ago was one of the biggest fans of CH with his ferocious
defenses when anybody even looked the wrong way at CH and his butt-kissing praisals
of CH products? (The same individual, btw, wouldn't pee on their wounds anymore if he
thought that that would heal them) Furthermore, wasn't it him who for months on
end declared publicly that he wouldn't buy DB when it came out? (And almost pulled
a The Phantom Menace ticket-booth-line trick when it did come out?)
 
        No, I don't want to believe that anybody can be so spineless. Therefore I will
force myself to think that he actually cares about the hobby so much that quite
often it clouds his reasoning. On this note, let's handle the his previous arguement
about MMP and Hasbro and competition and pink elephants:
 
        Anybody who thinks that Hasbro cares about Advanced Squad Leader board game
because of the profit they might make from selling ASL material should get a reality
check from the nearest branch office of a major bank. The 5K number that Tate
continuously keeps muttering (which btw, doesn't apply to TPMs at all because they
generally go with 500-1000) in itself shows the humor in the belief that Hasbro
might care about ASL profits. They don't. Any profit that a product run of 5K might
make wouldn't foot the bill for a night's hotal bill of one of their executives. In
fact, they would be losing money because of overhead. Why do you think that they
support ASL? To humor Curt, of course! Do you think they could've added a baseball
player like Curt to their ranks cheaper than this? By giving him his wish on a
fringe product that they really don't care about, they obtained a level of control
over him. I wonder what the written agreement between the two parties entail.
 
        Therefore, let's please not ponder so much about the big profits MMP needs to
make for Hasbro. As long as Curt is part of MMP, we will see ASL from Hasbro. Without
him, all you'll get will be whatever is left in their warehouses and nothing more.
Treat Curt well!
 
        Then what does this say about the competition? What it says is that the only
ones that will get hurt from a lack of competition will be the customers, namely us.
It might be true that it's a good businessman who is victorious against competition,
but without competition, progress suffers, quality suffers, and the customers suffer.
On a minor level, think about the first issues of Backblast and Critical Hit. Did
they look anywhere like the type of material you're used to seeing these days? Do
you remember the big difference in quality between BB#1 and BB#2? Do you think you
would still see the same difference if there weren't a CH#1 and ToT#1 in the
picture? Think about it! Why would they bother? The customer was happy; their
product was selling nicely; they were getting their ideas across; they were having
their voices heard among the ASL crowd. So why bother making it better unless you
know that there is somebody else that you need to be better than? This competition
gave us the quality we're used to these days.

        The same is true for big companies. In any sector with little competition - such
as the oil industry with big companies but also a huge demand that provides an
environment for price fixing - the customers suffer. In any sector with one 500 pound
gorilla, the quality suffers. The best example for this is the predatory business
practises of Microsoft. Using their overwhelming dominance in the PC operating
system market, they drove a much smaller Netscape out of the browser market through
corporate blackmail, intimidation and product bundling.

	Most of the time big companies compete with small ones not to put them out of
business, but to prevent them from obtaining a larger market share. Just like the
Cold War, "containment" is the main strategy. Driver a junior competitor is likely
to get attention of the DoJ. As in IBM's case years ago, that might turn out to be
rather unsavory. That's the main reason Microsoft invested in Apple two years ago.
Apple had to be kept alive or they would be left with no competitors at all. Similar
thinks can be said of Intel and AMD in the processor area. As long as AMD was contained,
Intel didn't worry too much. Only now when AMD is infringing into a much bigger market
share with the sub-$1000 market that AMD created, Intel started fighting tooth and nail.
ANd the customers benefited considerably. Without this competition the price of a 
rather nice machine that you can get for $800 these days would be about double that.

        Where does this leave us? Not so far from where we are now. However, if you
want to see quality ASL products, there has to be some competition. Furthermore, if
you want to see ASL from Hasbro, there has to be Curt.
 
 
        take care,
        Bahadir








From: BKMartin26@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 13:55:01 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

In a message dated 5/21/99, 12:36:55 PM, jwb3@city-net.com writes:

>Umm...  Let me see here.  The Journal is "pretty much an optional product"
>and yet you bet (and it wouldn't surprise me if you are right) that MMP
>sells more of THEM than it does of the NON-optional products?  In that
>case, people are hardly treating the Journal as an optional product, are
>they?

Well, the Journal *is* an optional product ... you don't need the Journal to 
play ASL ... unlike, say, the ASLRB.

If Tate is correct (and I also believe that he is), then the appeal of 
products like the Journal is quite obvious ... *new* scenarios.  From 
everything I've read here on this list, most guys prefer playing something 
new as much as they can (allowing, of course, for the occasional repeat 
playing to help newbies, etc).  

While modules fill that bill, they do so at the extra cost of the new 
counters, boards, etc that also come with the module.  Modules also have one 
drawback ... there's never an article in them.  That's why Journals are so 
attractive ... 8 new scenarios (or more), plus analysis, articles and other 
items you simply can't get anywhere else.

Just from personal experience ... I spent over $75 at the Open ... and I 
didn't pick up either GH or COB, despite the fact that I don't own either 
already ... I was more interested in the Journal, AP#2 and ASL Classic (which 
are all *very* optional) than in "completing" my ASL collection.  I'll take 
"ready-to-play" over "more freakin' counters to cut" ... *any* day.

Brien







From: "David Olie" <daveolie@klis.com>
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:09:19 +0000
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

John wrote:

> But what concerns me most about the death of KE is the implication that
> money was not the primary issue.  I noted what Mike said about "tumultuous
> events" and receiving "grief" because of being a TPM, and these statements
> worry me.  Wayne painted a rosy picture of the former TPMs and MMP all
> consolidating under one roof to strengthen the hobby, but I hardly think
> it's that simple.  If Hasbro is using strong-arm tactics against the TPMs
> it is unlikely that they will be happy to work under the same umbrella with
> MMP, regardless of whether the latter had anything to do with the tactics
> or not.

Um, well, I can't be sure which "events" and "grief" Mike may have 
been refering to in his statement.  It may or may not have had 
anything to do with MMP, however.

I can recall a couple of incidents on this list where Mike and the 
rest of the KE guys have received a fair dosage of grief, more than 
I'd ever put up with for the "love of the hobby".  

Most outstanding was the furore over the March Madness pack of 
scenarios and Axis Minor vehicle counters that were offered to those 
attending the 1998 tourney.  After making the announcement Mike was 
immediately assailed by about a dozen listoids complaining that "it's 
not fair, I live in Lower East Bumf*** and can't possibly get to K.C. 
for the tourney and why can't I buy this pretty toy, too?"  The 
whining reached alarmingly high levels even for this list.

I suppose KE's business decision was debatable in this case, and I 
thought Mike's reaction to the complaints was a wee bit thin-skinned 
at times, but I don't think anyone in the hobby has taken so much 
shit (with the exception of RAT) and stuck with it so long.

There are other instances, too, but I'd say the bottom line is that 
it's possible to love something too much.  Lighten up a bit, guys, 
and we'd all likely be happier.

David "of course, RAT deserves it" Olie










Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:03:38 -0400
From: Jan Spoor <jspoor@bmdo.mcri.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signing off...

At 01:06 PM 5/21/99 -0400, John Brock wrote:

[TOTR wrote]
>>If MMP sends out a shoddy product they have to answer not only to 
>>the ASL consumer but to Hasbro as well. BTW, Hasbro can pull MMP's plug
at any 
>>second. If KE, CH, etc. produce a shoddy product who do they answer to? I 
>>think MMP has a lot more pressure on them to produce quality than any TPM 
>>does, with or without the competition factor.
>
>Not necessarily.  They have a lot more pressure to make money.  Businesses
>do not always perceive higher quality as a way to make money.  Sometimes
>they view lower quality as a way to reduce the cost of the product and thus
>increase the profit margin.  

Look at Gamesw Workshop (everybody's favourite target). I remember when
their games had flair, imagination, a kind of darkly sinister coolness. Now
they are cleverly orchestrated marketing pieces; everything costs twice as
much as it used to and has half as many components. And they've gotten into
this fascinating habit of taking a game off the market, saying it's dead,
then revising the rules (so you need all-new pieces) and the artwork and
reissuing it (at a substantial increase in price). Let's hope that Hasbro
never starts down that road...

>As long as Hasbro continues to give them a
>free rein, or feels that quality is the answer, then MMP's innate desire to
>produce quality products will serve them well.  But if Hasbro ever decides
>that it needs to exert more control and that reducing quality is the
>answer, then we'll be screwed without any competition to turn to.

Well, I think that the TPMs will always be around; it's just a question of
whether they distribute "sub rosa" like the underground press or are able
to advertise, run public cons, etc.

Jan Spoor














From: Mark Eyerman <btw@sgi.net>
Subject: ASL: Our Own Worst Enemies
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:39:12 -0400


In the ongoing requiem over KE's passing, I think that a key point has been 
overlooked.

>....There are myriad reasons for this decision, and I will not burden you 
with the details here. In a nutshell, it can be summed up as a case of the 
amount of personal gratification that we draw from our work not being 
enough to overcome the amount of "grief" we receive (an unfortunate 
byproduct of being a Third-Party Manufacturer in today's hobby). ........<

KE and 'most' of the other TPM's are publishing ASL products for "personal 
gratification" and a love of The Game.

>....That, along with the stark financial reality of operating in the "red" 
for a couple of years running, is all the justification we need. Rather 
than have this overflow to the point where we would cease enjoying the game 
itself altogether, we've decided to "case the colors" of Kinetic Energy 
Productions, Inc., ....<.

	And although they had been loosing money "for a couple of years running", 
this was not the ultimate reason to cease operations. No, it was because of 
the "grief" they received in pursuit of their 'labor of love'. I guess a 
prime example of this "grief" was the uproar they caused when they had the 
audacity to offer a free product to those attending their tournament (March 
Madness). The outrage from people who couldn't buy it, the accusations of 
splintering the ASL community, star bellied sneeches & non-star bellied 
sneeches..... All this for something that they were giving away for free. 
It gets even worse for the ASL products that are offered for sale. The 
product can be 99.99% right, yet they will be flamed and berated for that 
.01% that isn't quite right. This, IMO, is the greatest threat to The Game. 
The anal insistence on perfection. We're all human, we all make mistakes 
(hell, watch me play some time and you'll see human failabilty in full 
view). Yet let someone publish an ASL product with a missing underscore on 
a few counters, or a map with a wrong stairway symbol and you'd think that 
it was put out by a group of child molesters for all the heat that they 
will take. As a community we are cannibalizing our own kind in this 
ridiculous insistence upon perfection. And to what end? Another source of 
ASL products is no more. A group who produced first rate ASL products 
quits. Not because they are losing money doing so, but because of all the 
"grief".
	Now I'm not saying that we should remain silent about substandard 
products. If someone sells something that is crap, they SHOULD be 
criticized. But when someone like KE (who by acclimation puts out top 
quality stuff) has to endure criticism like my example above, something is 
wrong.
	If we all want ASL to survive and to thrive, I think that it's time that 
we all look in the mirror. Are my comments and criticisms going to help or 
hurt The Game. Are my comments constructive or destructive. Is the flaw in 
my new ASL purchase a valid complaint, or am I just trying to be the first 
on the List to identify the mistake. It's easy to say what MMP, Curt, CH!, 
HOB, et al should do to help ASL flourish, but what are YOU doing to help 
The Game?


Regards-

Mark Eyerman
Allison Park, PA
btw@sgi.net



P.S.: An open question to Curt, in case he's following.

Which do you find makes it more difficult to do your job:
	The overly demanding & hyper critical fans/media in Philadelphia, or
	the overly demanding & hyper critical members of the ASL List?







Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:42:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Doug Maston <ut00894@vght.volvo.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

JIm wrote,

         I've been told many times before that it doesn't make much sense to argue
> with Tate when he's on a roll.

Jim and All,

  When I see a post from Mr. Rogers, I immediately delete it from my neighborhood,
oops, I mean mail box without bothering to open it or read it.  All such replies
to his rants are likewise deleted after I see what they are.

  The bottom line, I don't care to read useless flames, arguments, etc.

Doug Maston

------------------------------------------------------

Douglas D. Maston
Staff Software Engineer

Volvo Information Technology
7900 National Service Road
P.O. Box 26115
Greensboro, NC 27402-6115

(336) 393-2676 (B)
(336) 393-2071 (F)

d-maston@vght.volvo.com












From: BKMartin26@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:30:34 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

In a message dated 5/21/99, 1:16:58 PM, erimli@systems.caltech.edu writes:

> Furthermore, if you want to see ASL from Hasbro, there has to be Curt.

Just throwing this out there for thought and discussion ...

If Bahadir is correct ... then what happens in 5-6 years when Curt is no 
longer an All-Star caliber pitcher?  Or, worse yet, when Curt has retired?

If Hasbro is banking on Curt's personal marketability ... that, 
unfortunately, will run out in time ... leaving us where?

I'd have to hope that MMP has some sort of assurances that Hasbro's support 
will extend beyond the conclusion of Curt's professional career.

Brien









From: "Gordon Molek" <Gordon_Molek@mw.3com.com>
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 15:05:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

Don't forget the new Nike commercial either.

ERA isn't sexy, and all pitchers want to be hitters.
Is that true Curt?

Has anyone tried to get Mark McGuire or Sammy Sosa interested in ASL?

Enquiring minds want to know,

Gordon





BKMartin26@aol.com on 05/21/99 02:30:34 PM

Sent by:  BKMartin26@aol.com


To:   erimli@systems.caltech.edu, advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu, lrogers@arrow.com
cc:    (Gordon Molek/MW/US/3Com)
Subject:  Re: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)




In a message dated 5/21/99, 1:16:58 PM, erimli@systems.caltech.edu writes:

> Furthermore, if you want to see ASL from Hasbro, there has to be Curt.

Just throwing this out there for thought and discussion ...

If Bahadir is correct ... then what happens in 5-6 years when Curt is no
longer an All-Star caliber pitcher?  Or, worse yet, when Curt has retired?

If Hasbro is banking on Curt's personal marketability ... that,
unfortunately, will run out in time ... leaving us where?

I'd have to hope that MMP has some sort of assurances that Hasbro's support
will extend beyond the conclusion of Curt's professional career.

Brien









Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 16:43:24 -0400
From: "Wayne M. Hadady" <wmh@hadady.com>
Subject: ASL: Kinetic Energy gets real

Wayne M. Hadady wrote [Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...]:
> Michael & Maureen Reed wrote:
> > ...Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
> > publication, and sale of [ASL] products...

KE is reputed to have been the best TPM.  Their products are glowingly
praised.  This is not news, so it required no restatement from me.

> Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.
> This is indeed good news.

As we were obviously about to be hit with a day or three of ``what a
loss'' and ``if only it weren't so'' posts, I thought I'd better spin
up the (brighter, more relevant) flip-side of their decision.  

First, a reminder that, =these= days [not the old ``ASL (under AH)
dead-end days''], ASL designers can help the hobby only:
  o  by submitting works to MMP (the only licensed publisher of ASL
     material, today) for official release and global distribution, or
  o  via limited-distribution non-commercial amateur-press fan 'zines
     (of limited value to the global playership, though opinions vary),
and the latter is a ``maybe.''  Anything else:
  x  is illegal (whines, and arguments to the contrary, are not worth
     the electrons required to display them), and
  x  diverts the talents of folk who would better serve the hobby by
     submitting their club-developed efforts to MMP for consideration.

The dissolution of KE is, indeed, good news for the hobby.  If the
best-by-acclamation of the TPMs can publicly fold their hand, anyone
else can, with much less loss of face, IMO.  The sooner it is clear
that MMP is the only commercial manufacturer of new ASL material,
the sooner the designers of new ASL will open channels to MMP.

Regrading the (utterly inane) comparisons of this KE development to
a Death, and the posts about it to a Wake (remind me not to compare
the next death in your family [God, please forbid] to the closing of a
hobby shop---sheesh):  no one died.  The ex-KE folk are still players
of and, presumably, fans of The Game.  Their ideas can still see publi-
cation, just not under KE logo (their wise choice).  Hence my words,

> If it's your personal pleasure to do so, I hope you will continue to
> design and develop scenarios, etc, with your playgroup, and submit
> to MMP those you'd like to see in wider distribution.  I'm sure we'd
> all like to see more MMP materials, and those credited to such famous
> designers as yourselves are sure to be sought and enjoyed.  Passage
> of such works through MMP will mark them as the Best of the Best.

Freed of the headaches of some business operations, they might re-
discover the fun-factor in ASL design work.  I read the ``pity party''
subtext in the KE post and chose to ignore it.  YMMV.  IMO, you don't
show pity to the demoralized.  You show them a Way, if you can.

> Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
> than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
> just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
> decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.

Time to dispel a myth, perhaps.  Aside from the good they achieved,
KE accomplished harm, too.  Hearsay has it that KE publications con-
tributed to AH/MMP decisions not to publish AoO earlier.  ``Why give
that priority, given availability of MM '98 Pack,'' went the thinking,
I'm told.  IOW, KE ``contributions'' may deserve some blame for the
still-incomplete state of the ASL system.  If so, that outweighs their
``good'' achievements, IMVHO.

The real history will soon be of no consequence, given plans for AoO
publication.  But the point illustrated is important:  by simply not
being =with= AH/MMP, KE perhaps ``contributed'' to a crippling of
The Game, in a minor, but discernible way.  Had they given over their
work for love of the hobby, we'd all own another Plano, perhaps, and
KE work would not only be in print, but in wider distribution and use.

These days, MMP is the only legal Way to further development of The
Game, commercially.  So TPMers should stop playing at Working for the
hobby:  play the game, brew designs to your sheer delight, and send
the fruits to MMP for love, not money.  The law plainly aims to pre-
vent ASL designers from commercializing their work any other way.
TPMers should stop looking for wiggle room.  ASL is a hobby, not an
income stream [EXC:  MMP/Hasbro, and that's =highly= speculative].

If your motive is the joy of being your own publisher, keep the
shingle but stop piggy-backing on ASL (you're not licensed).  CH
is headed on this road, it seems:  they're creating their own
commercial copyrights.

If it's an ``I love ASL but can't work w/MMP'' thing, you're limited
to law-breaking (being an unlicensed commercial producer) or being a
fan 'zine publisher (and even that may be disallowed).  Reality annoys,
but there it is.

Last, a somewhat related post of mine, some weeks back, drew a couple
of off-list bitches, one crying how tight-fisted MMP is in its compen-
sation for submissions, the other whining about the unfairness of ASL
licensing realities.  Like I just said, ASL's a hobby, not an income
stream.  The ASL copyrights are private property, currently licensed
to one party.  As businessmen/consumers, we can choose to respect
those rights, or to be thieves/accomplices, relying on the hysteresis
of the legal system to ``get away'' before we are held accountable by
Men.  For reasons having nothing to do with The Game, choose wisely.

IMO, it's past time to accept the terrain as dealt, and be thankful.
Sheesh.

Wayne "if Hasbro shuts 'em all down, MMP will sort 'em out" Hadady

disclaimer:  I have no business relationship with MMP.  I may have
             one at a future date.  Should that happen, I am assured
the guaranteed worth of my contract, plus a dollar, will result in
the Starbucks clerk patiently waiting for another twenty-nine cents.
-- 
Wayne M. Hadady   wargamer   wmh@hadady.com   http://www.hadady.com/~wmh
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Defense of Anzio Beachhead can be attributed to massed artillery fires.
This was not true in the early stages of the beachhead, but a develop-
ment over time.  We welcomed news of an enemy counterattack forming;
under the system of massed fires, the enemy took terrific punishment.

Notes on Combat Experience During the Tunisian and African Campaigns,
MAJ GEN E.N. Harmon, US Army Commanding, 2d Armd Div





From: BIOCHEMBRI@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:06:41 EDT
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy gets real
 
Wayne;
 
Just read your second post about KE and your excitement for they're demise.
I ignored your first post, but decided to respond this time.  First, I do
find your comments disturbing and disagree with your facts and conclusions.
What I really protest is your use of rumor about KE causing AH/Hasbro to
change or do anything with regard to the ASL game line.  Second, I would like
to point out that KE did in fact try to deal with MMP in releasing KE designs
as official.  All the deals fell through, and that is the way it is.  But for
your assumptions that people are to just work through MMP is just plain
ignorant.
 
Brian Abela
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
From: "Phil Pomerantz" <philip@enter.net>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:02:02 -0400
 
Bahadir
 Thank you for the post
 Yours is a very reasoned and well thought out argument
 I like having TPM material available and I also mourn the passing of KE/TOT
 
 I long ago gave up arguing with Tate for a number of reasons not least of
which is his remarkable
inconsistency, and that i don't have the time or desire to get into a
pissing match with a man with a 6 quart bladder
 
thanks
 
Phil
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Bahadir Erimli <erimli@systems.caltech.edu>
Date: Friday, May 21, 1999 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
 
 
>        I've been told many times before that it doesn't make much sense to
argue
>with Tate when he's on a roll. I've been told that it's like wrestling with
a pig:
>You get muddy, but the pig likes it. I know very well that it is exactly
the case.
>On the other hand, this general attitude of the List was what drove our old
friend
>Patrik Manlig out of the List. Many people think that he quit because he
was
>embarrassed when he, by mistake, sent to the List an insult mail that he
intended to
>send to Tate. That is not true; he quit because he couldn't tolerate being
on the
>same mailing list with a demagouge (sp?) like Tate and a majority that
quietly
>tolerates him.





From: BKMartin26@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:06:35 EDT
Subject: ASL: In honor of KE
 
Gents:
 
I am in the process of designing a fictitious scenario entitled "March 
Madness", which I will soon be posting on the ASLBB.  The dedication on the 
scenario will be to the folks at KE.
 
In any event, this scenario is using the latest in VASL technology to create 
a snow-covered "paradise" using Boards 45 and 23.
 
Here's the basic premise ...
 
March, 1945 ... somewhere west of Berlin.  A horde of Russian units has 
reached a canal (Board 23) and must cross it to reach the town just beyond.  
Of course, the Germans are there to try and stop them.  Only neither side has 
any ordnance, vehicles, or OBA.  And the Russians have No Quarter on their 
side, while the Germans have not one, but *two* snipers to wreak havoc (yeah, 
it's an SSR waiting to happen).
 
I haven't figured out whether the VC will be either Building Control, Exit 
VP, or a certain number of unbroken squads actually making it across the 
bridges over the canal.
 
It won't be playtested at all ... but it will be there if ever anyone cares 
to try it ... and the initial board set-up in VASL will also be made 
available when the scenario sees print.
 
My first try at design ... (shrugging) ... we'll see if it flies.
 
Brien





From: "Mark McGilchrist" <mmjm@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:53:14 +1000
 
Hi,
 
This is my last comment on this matter, take it as you will;
 
Tate writes, (and this is probably more or less accurate);
>
> So, basically, you are saying that KE was treated just like
every other SL/ASL
> producer since the beginning. OK, so what is your point?
>
 
That perhaps we shouldn't be treating SL/ASL producers in this
manner. These are not monolithic companies, they are people that
enjoy ASL and are trying to share something they have developed
with the ASL Community. From those amateurs caught in the heat of
the moment to the "official" representatives such as MMP, none can
be said to be making a living from ASL, nor even getting much
financial return on their expenses. Mark Neukom isn't retiring to
the Bahamas on the proceeds here, Ray Tapio is still living at the
same address he was 5 years ago. This perpetual focus on money and
value, even to the extent of demanding free products to update
existing products, free Q&A;, free errata etc. makes designing an
ASL product more like a life sentence than a project. We should at
least be civil about these matters and start putting people first
rather than money.
 
 
Mark McGilchrist
mmjm@ozemail.com.au











From: Hovned31@aol.com
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 21:51:46 EDT
Subject: ASL: From one Wayne to another Wayne

Wayne,

I invite you to partake in the mastication and ingestion of fecal matter 
until you expire.

You are a true Hasbro sycophant.  I suppose you like to limit creativity.  
After all KE brought us:  Rare German Vehicles, The Romanians, The Hungarian 
armor, The Dogs of War, and a host of unique and entertaining scenarios.  
None of which would exist without KE.	

KE Scenarios were unique and I doubt that MMP would allow KE type scenarios 
since they don't fit into the neat little mold of MMP's idea of a scenario.  
So the hobby is weaker and some good designs are left in the cold.  



Wayne Boudreaux









Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 20:54:03 -0600
From: Tim Wilson & Amy Andersen <twilson@wyoming.com>
Subject: ASL: KE's Demise

Greetings Listvolk,

I will miss KE. I loved playtesting for them, was often awed by the effort
they put into our accursed hobby, appreciated their unique spin on ASL even
when I didn't share their vision and often questioned their sanity(This
goes for every ASL producer as well) for putting up with us fickle ASL
consumers. They were innovators and in my opinion they raised the bar on
production quality higher than any other group.

Hopefully sometime down the road The Game will become fun for them again
and they'll feel the creative urge. It would be nice to not have Korea be
an orphan, not to mention other projects looming in the dark recesses of
Mark Neukom's large brain. I won't hold my breath.

Now back to the usual ASLML lovefest.

Timbo

"Don't fuck me up with peace and love"
Cracker












From: "Theodore Beale" <theo@fenriswolf.com>
Subject: ASL: ASL, Curt, and Hasbro
Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 23:33:16 -0400


Gentlemen,

There are a few misconceptions floating around this list that I think =
need to be cleared up.  First of all, I very much doubt that Hasbro's =
support for ASL depends entirely upon Curt.  I am a professional =
computer game developer acquainted with some of the people running one =
of Hasbro's development studios, and there are two reasons Hasbro bought =
Avalon Hill, neither having much to do with Curt or Major League =
Baseball.

The primary reason is that Avalon Hill is a gold mine for future =
computer games.  Hasbro creates very little that is new, unlike GT =
Interactive, Blizzard, or Activision, they are (mostly) not attempting =
to create new licenses so much as take advantage of existing games like =
Frogger, Monopoly, etc.  The success of Civilization has demonstrated =
that old-fashioned board games, converted to the PC, can do extremely =
well.  Of course, it helps to have a designer like Sid doing the =
conversion.

If you note that games like Steel Panthers and Panzer General have sold =
quite well, and companies like Talonsoft can sell 50,000 copies of their =
less-expensive titles, you can see the value of controlling the licenses =
of ASL, Gladiator, and many other games.  One interesting note... WWII =
games are very hot right now with the publishers thanks to Saving =
Private Ryan.

Now I do not know if ASL is currently a part of these conversion plans, =
and based on my limited knowledge, I doubt it since there are many =
easier projects that are readily available.  But one day, its time will =
come, and hopefully Hasbro will do the same kind of respectful job that =
was done with both Axis & Allies and Stratego.

The second reason for the acquisition is primarily symbolic.  Hasbro is =
one of the biggest game companies in the world, and yet it gets little =
respect from hard-core gamers.  Acquiring Avalon Hill and maintaining =
the licenses costs them relatively little, and provides Hasbro with =
prestige and respect within the industry that it would not otherwise =
have.  And while significant money matters do dictate most decisions, do =
not underestimate the importance of executive ego.  Believe me, as =
someone who has to deal with it more often than I would like, it often =
plays a significant role.  Large corporate execs are still fallible, =
flawed human beings, just like everyone else.

Because of this, I believe that Hasbro will use MMP to maintain ASL as =
long as it does not cause them significant headaches or cost them too =
much money.  Considering that one PC game normally costs between one and =
three million dollars to produce, the entire AH inventory is =
insignificant by comparison.  If the inventory can provide even one =
Civilization-like hit, selling over two million copies and producing =
revenues of more than fifty million dollars over the life of the =
product, it will be very worthwhile to keep the whole line going.

That being said, I'm sure that Hasbro enjoys Curt's deep involvement =
with the game, as we all do.  And like many others, I am very glad that =
the official ASL stamp is in the capable hands of MMP.  While I'm a big =
fan of HOB, and am truly sorry to hear of the end of KE's development =
efforts, I think that the game has never seen a more promising state of =
being.

Yes, there are things that need to be done.  A newbie module is a must, =
and VASL and an EASLRB must be better utilized to introduce new players =
to the system.  I'd like to see a computer game produced, but one that =
would focus on bringing new players into the game system rather than =
satisfying the demands of the grognards.

Anyhow, such are my thoughts.  Fire away, and best regards,

Theodore Beale
CEO/Designer
Fenris Wolf


=20












From: Blachorn@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 08:29:44 EDT
Subject: ASL: Wayne "if Hasbro shuts 'em all down, MMP will sort 'em out" Hadady 


Wayne "if Hasbro shuts 'em all down, MMP will sort 'em out" Hadady

disclaimer:  I have no business relationship with MMP.  I may have
             one at a future date.  Should that happen, I am assured
the guaranteed worth of my contract, plus a dollar, will result in
the Starbucks clerk patiently waiting for another twenty-nine cents.
- -- 
Wayne M. Hadady   wargamer   wmh@hadady.com   http://www.hadady.com/~wmh

*********************************************

Gee Wayne, that seems to indicate that MMP equals god in your mind?   Such an 
'inane' comparisons indeed.

If such is indeed the case in 'your' mind, might one suggest it is time to 
get a life?

I'm afraid that the last section says it all - you may feel good working for 
MMP [I've seen mixed reviews, but with out personal experience I can't 
comment], however I feel safe saying that there are others who do not for 
whatever reason.

>From the 'consumers' point of view the loss of KE and indeed any 3rd part 
means less product and less talent going into the ASL pool.  If you don't 
like what someone puts out there is a very simple solution - don't buy it.   
While you may not like TPM a lot of people do.

To the gentleman who tried to tell me Wayne was a nice guy who wasn't taking 
delight that KE closed - you almost had me convinced until this latest post.















From: SBrooksMia@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 12:56:38 EDT
Subject: ASL: KE

GOD -- I LOVE MY PERSONALIZED LEADER COUNTERS   :)

Steven Brooks
Miami Beach













From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:29:40 -0600
Subject: Re: ASL: Wayne enjoys Kinetic Energy signing off...

On Thu, 20 May 1999 10:03:14 -0600, Lloyd Tate Rogers wrote:

>4) I want to support "Official" ASL to insure it's continuance. The hobby can 
>live without KE but it will die without an "Official" ASL source for ASLRB, 
>original modules/parts, and Q&A;/Errata resolution.

Yeah, but that assumes someone would buy KE instead of MMP. My
experience is that people buy everything AH?MMP puts out, and then
choose between the 3rd party stuff.

Grant "hey, I replied to Tate" Linneberg











From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 11:24:42 -0600
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

On Thu, 20 May 1999 10:01:31 -0400, Wayne M. Hadady wrote:

>Michael & Maureen Reed wrote:
>
>> As of June 1st,
>> 1999, Kinetic Energy Productions, Inc. will cease design, development,
>> publication, and sale of all products that support and deal with the
>> Advanced Squad Leader  game (including all of its Modules).
>
>Congratulations on your decision to strengthen the ASL hobby.  This is
>indeed good news.
>

Well, he's got to have an angle with an opener like that...

>If it's your personal pleasure to do so, I hope you will continue to
>design and develop scenarios, etc, with your playgroup, and submit
>to MMP those you'd like to see in wider distribution.  I'm sure we'd
>all like to see more MMP materials, and those credited to such famous
>designers as yourselves are sure to be sought and enjoyed.  Passage
>of such works through MMP will mark them as the Best of the Best.
>
I don't know why KE threw in the towel, and I don't know if they'll
continue to develop things to add to the MMP pipeline, but I doubt it.
Not that MMP or KE have said much publicly, but reading between the
lines, it appeared to me that Mr. Neukom wasn't comfortable handing
over his work to MMP without retaining final  approval of all changes
(that's just my read on the situation, I don't have this from either
MMP or KE). So, no Korea module.

>Much better to have a sole professional provider (MMP, in this case)
>than several uncooperating (even bickering) providers.  May this be
>just the beginning of a trend toward consolidation.  I hope your
>decision will lead others, by example, to similar choices.

I disagree. It's great to have an official arbiter of the rules, but
3rd party producers really enhanced my ASL life. I loved all the stuff
I got from KE (particularly TOT2 and 3), from HOB (particularly BRV and
GSTK, but I can't wait to try KOTH as well), and (holster your pistols)
CH (I'm trying out Easter at Tobruk with PL2.5 right now - Tate, no
need to comment on the folly of this).

While I don't dispute Hasbro's right to shut down the 3PP, I think it
is stupid. If they are sucessful, the amount of ASL released in a year
will be severly curtailed (although it will once again be possible to
buy everything :). 3PP enhance interest; variety is always good, choice
is always good. Not just variety in topic, but variety of approach. 

Grant
Different is good













From: Tabitha768@aol.com
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 13:49:52 EDT
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy signs off...

Hi all; Sushi writes;

> I disagree. It's great to have an official arbiter of the rules, but
>  3rd party producers really enhanced my ASL life. I loved all the stuff
>  I got from KE (particularly TOT2 and 3), from HOB (particularly BRV and
>  GSTK, but I can't wait to try KOTH as well), and (holster your pistols)
>  CH (I'm trying out Easter at Tobruk with PL2.5 right now - Tate, no
>  need to comment on the folly of this).

I have to second Grants  views here ; The German rare vehicles  moduler had 
to have been the best thing IMHO of course, put out buy the ToT lads. Good 
luck to you mike in your next endeavors. Infact ToT  and HoB are/ were the 
best producer's of all thing HASL wise or intresting battle situations wise. 
now all that remains   of a quality  minded    theird party producer is HoB 
and SP, now how long will it be before Hasbro snuf's them out of existance? 
The countdown to zero begines!!  We need the TPM's, be it CH!, HoB or SP, 
these are the guy's that will keep eachother on one another's toe's. 

Scott













From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:29:37 -0600
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

On Fri, 21 May 99 10:50:09 PDT, Bahadir Erimli wrote:

>        Then what does this say about the competition? What it says is that the only
>ones that will get hurt from a lack of competition will be the customers, namely us.
>It might be true that it's a good businessman who is victorious against competition,
>but without competition, progress suffers, quality suffers, and the customers suffer.

Thanks, Bahadir. This is the most concise paragraph written on the
subject of "competition" and 3PP.

Grant














From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:46:13 -0600
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy gets real

On Fri, 21 May 1999 16:43:24 -0400, Wayne M. Hadady wrote:

>First, a reminder that, =these= days [not the old ``ASL (under AH)
>dead-end days''], ASL designers can help the hobby only:
>  o  by submitting works to MMP (the only licensed publisher of ASL
>     material, today) for official release and global distribution, or
>  o  via limited-distribution non-commercial amateur-press fan 'zines
>     (of limited value to the global playership, though opinions vary),
>and the latter is a ``maybe.''  Anything else:
>  x  is illegal (whines, and arguments to the contrary, are not worth
>     the electrons required to display them), and
>  x  diverts the talents of folk who would better serve the hobby by
>     submitting their club-developed efforts to MMP for consideration.

Well, Wayne, this is only your opinion, particularly the 4th point. The
only fact of the three is the 3rd, and everyone has their own take on
which laws they obey and which they ignore (it was just tax time,
remember).

And finally, "club-developed efforts"? Come on, Wayne, could you be any
more patronizing? KE's stuff was a far cry from your demeaning phrase.

Grant













From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:37:27 -0600
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

On Fri, 21 May 1999 15:30:34 EDT, BKMartin26@aol.com wrote:

>
>If Bahadir is correct ... then what happens in 5-6 years when Curt is no 
>longer an All-Star caliber pitcher?  Or, worse yet, when Curt has retired?

Curt has obviously got to teach ASL to all promising rookies.












From: THutton516@aol.com
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:02:25 EDT
Subject: Re: ASL: KE

	I have to break concealment on this one.  I couldn't agree more with 
our comrade from Australia.  KE's passing is a sad occasion indeed.  As a 
hobby, we should all mourn the passing of any quality producer of ASL 
products.  More, not less competition keeps the hobby vibrant and exciting.  
I applaud and support MMP's efforts to date, but that does not mean that KE's 
demise is good news.  I have enjoyed KE's products and purchased all I could 
get.  Their stuff was first class, all the way.
	As for Wayne et al. dancing on the grave of good men is a time 
honored tradition in the West.  Enjoy your day in the sun.  Graveyards are 
full of indispensable men.  Will you dance when the rest fall?  Nothing lasts 
forever.  Who thought AH would throw in the towel?.....Resume stealth mode.

Tony Hutton
All American ASL club
Ft Bragg, NC












From: bprobst@ibm.net (Bruce Probst)
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy gets real
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 13:39:01 GMT

On Sat, 22 May 1999 23:46:13 -0600, "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
wrote:

>And finally, "club-developed efforts"? Come on, Wayne, could you be any
>more patronizing? KE's stuff was a far cry from your demeaning phrase.

I must be missing something.  Why is "club-developed" considered
"demeaning"?  The Paddington Bears stuff is generally highly-regarded,
right?

"Not a PBear myself, but if I were, I'd probably be vaguely offended."

----------------------------------------------------------------
Bruce Probst                      bprobst@ibm.net
Melbourne, Australia              MSTie #72759
"Kids come a-runnin' for the great taste of raw goat."
MST3K-OZ Newsletter  
http://www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/pimlico/131/oz.html
ASL FAQ              http://www.tne.net.au/njh/ASL/FAQ/FAQ.html















From: "Grant Linneberg" <sushi@cadvision.com>
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 09:51:54 -0600
Subject: Re: ASL: Kinetic Energy gets real

On Sun, 23 May 1999 13:39:01 GMT, Bruce Probst wrote:

>>And finally, "club-developed efforts"? Come on, Wayne, could you be any
>>more patronizing? KE's stuff was a far cry from your demeaning phrase.
>
>I must be missing something.  Why is "club-developed" considered
>"demeaning"?  The Paddington Bears stuff is generally highly-regarded,
>right?

Absolutely. But I haven't seen Bears put out counters like the KE
counters, or even booklets that were professionally printed like the
TOT booklets. All I was inferring was that KE was a long way above
"club-developed", not that "club-developed" was bad.

Grant










From: Trisstine@aol.com
Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 15:58:52 EDT
Subject: ASL: KE: A Fond Farewell


      Listers,                                                                
               5/23
      Sorry to get in on this so late, work and all the other duties
      of real life have prevented me from writing 'til now.
      Firstly, I would like to say that I am saddened by the demise
      of KE/TOT. I have enjoyed their magazine/scenario paks,
      and regardless of what others have said, believe that they helped
      to raise the bar for TPM's in both quality of their publication,
      and their attention to detail. Having been at MM'99 and seen
      Mark Neukom's preliminary work on a "Korean Module", all that
      I can say is that it's all our loss that (in all likelihood) this will 
never
      see the light of day.(in a large distribution sense) For a preliminary
      product, Mark's Korean maps and counters put certain TPM's 
      salable product to shame. The British Rare Vehicles, though an in-
      complete set, is still remarkable in it's quality, and the Late War
      Roamanian/Hungarian Set(mine, all mine) is one of the best(if not the
      best)TPM products period.
      So, to Mark and Mike, thanks for all the hours of fun with your 
scenarios,
      "Dogs of War" IS a H.O.F. scenario regardless of the "age" criteria,
      and for a great time at MM'99! You will be missed, and our hobby will be
      a less colorful place for KE/TOT's passing. Best of luck with your 
future
      endeavors!
                                     Sincerely,
                                   Chris Olden


      p.s.-for those of you who are interested, read "No Triumphant 
Procession"
            by John Russel. An excellent book, and for those interested in 
scenar-
            io design, an A-1 course in how to take scenario ideas from a 
source
            to an actual workable scenario.(all of TOT#2's scenarios are from 
this
            book.)











Date: Sun, 23 May 1999 19:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Robert D. Wolkey" <rwolkey@tincan.tincan.org>
Subject: Re: ASL: KE


As a guy who quit getting involved in ASL for 2.5 years the key issues 
about KE are:

* will they come back?

Mike has already said that he is considering going back to The Gamers
systems where he was previously involved or try a few other games that
have been on his shelf.  The pull is strong, but how involved will he
become if/when he comes back?  Who knows about Mark. I doubt he will allow
his 'creative license' to be dulled.

This is too bad, because to tell you the truth, even though I own every KE
product I could get my hands I've never played a single one of their
scenarios, except the two that were released in ASLUG.  Why?  I could
never get past all the SSRs and I didn't want to take the time.  I think a
developer like MMP would be good for many KE to 'dumb' them down a little
and make them more playable.  Mark is brillant, but at the expense of the
common scenario joe, like me.


* can 3rd Party and designers work with MMP?

HoB doesn't seem to have a problem.  Dan Dolan can go either way.  CH has
already shown it's money, not the good of ASL it's after by the release of
Combat.  Schwerpunkt?  Their scenarios would fit perfect in a Journal, but
who knows about the designers?  Tom Morin's Central Stalingrad?  I'm
waiting patiently.  If everyone keeps reverting back to play Red
Barricades, why isn't Central Stalingrad moving up the list?

I happen to share MMP's vision on the direction ASL should take.  Keep
Hasbro happy and pump out 4 or 5 products a year.  They were regular
onsite AH playtesters and know Greenwood, MacNamera and Kibler well enough
to NOT cast those previous men's efforts and visions aside.


* was KE good for ASL?

Hell yes!  They brought 3rd party product quality up more than one notch.
And filled a void when slow mo MacNamera was releasing one product a year.


* was KE quitting good for ASL?

Hell no!  We just lost two of our best scenario designers, maybe never to
be heard from again.

The key is whether or not they are tired of ASL, which means they probably
won't come back.  OR if they are burnt out of the 3rd Party game.  A labor
of love can only go on for so long, soon or later it becomes a burden.
Hopefully, they will decide to let it become MMP's burden.


* will we see another KE for ASL?

I doubt it.  The restrictions are too great.  Of course, I'm sure CH will
let plenty of 3rd Party products come out for Combat for free.  They have
blazed a trail and I'm sure they will let others gladly follow. 



Wolkster










Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 06:53:59 -0400
From: Steve and Kay Garvey <sgarvey@voyager.net>
Subject: Re:ASL:KE (burning those feed us)



"Robert D. Wolkey" wrote:

> * will they come back?
> 
> Mike has already said that he is considering going back to The Gamers
> systems where he was previously involved or try a few other games that
> have been on his shelf.
(snip)
> The key is whether or not they are tired of ASL, which means they probably
> won't come back.  OR if they are burnt out of the 3rd Party game.  A labor
> of love can only go on for so long, soon or later it becomes a burden.
 My question, has the ASL public, ie; this List,
quashed the enthusiasm of KE? Mike took some greif
over KE policy decisions, couple that with "no"
financial reward...
 My point, should we take care when flaming those
who "feed" the hobby? We are of course, talking
about mere people.
 Steve5+2











Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:40:02 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

------------------------
  From: Mark McGilchrist <mmjm@ozemail.com.au>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 10:53:14 +1000 

> That perhaps we shouldn't be treating SL/ASL producers in this
> manner. These are not monolithic companies, they are people that
> enjoy ASL and are trying to share something they have developed
> with the ASL Community. From those amateurs caught in the heat of
> the moment to the "official" representatives such as MMP, none can
> be said to be making a living from ASL, nor even getting much
> financial return on their expenses. Mark Neukom isn't retiring to
> the Bahamas on the proceeds here, Ray Tapio is still living at the
> same address he was 5 years ago. This perpetual focus on money and
> value, even to the extent of demanding free products to update
> existing products, free Q&A;, free errata etc. makes designing an
> ASL product more like a life sentence than a project. We should at
> least be civil about these matters and start putting people first
> rather than money.

I agree that people are more important than money. On the other hand I don't 
recall any TPM's offering up a lot of _free_ products. If you take my money 
then you can take my criticism. They developed their projects and then said, 
here buy this! We did and then we told them what we think.

Also, I find it difficult to understand how anyone could be upset when folks 
beg, plead, and whine to be able to buy your products...go figure...

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         07:40:03
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com










Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:45:45 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

------------------------
  From: Phil Pomerantz <philip@enter.net>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 19:02:02 -0400 
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu

>  I long ago gave up arguing with Tate for a number of reasons not least of
> which is his remarkable
> inconsistency, and that i don't have the time or desire to get into a
> pissing match with a man with a 6 quart bladder.

I can only hope to live a life as perfect and mistake free as Phil's. A man 
who has never been wrong or had to eat crow (or at least admit it).

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         07:45:45
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com








Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 07:47:25 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

------------------------
  From: Grant Linneberg <sushi@cadvision.com>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Sat, 22 May 1999 23:29:37 -0600 


> On Fri, 21 May 99 10:50:09 PDT, Bahadir Erimli wrote:
> 
> >        Then what does this say about the competition? What it says is that 
the only
> >ones that will get hurt from a lack of competition will be the customers, 
namely us.
> >It might be true that it's a good businessman who is victorious against 
competition,
> >but without competition, progress suffers, quality suffers, and the 
customers suffer.
> 
> Thanks, Bahadir. This is the most concise paragraph written on the
> subject of "competition" and 3PP.

Let me point out a couple of things about this "holy grail" of competition...

First, the majority of the core SL/ASL system was developed and produce during 
an era without one iota of competition. How much competition was around when 
BV was published? How about when Yanks came out...or Red Barricades? These are 
some of the best products ever produced for ASL! If what all the "chicken 
littles" are saying was true ASL would never have been! There was never any 
real competition until AH dropped the ball in the early to mid '90's.

Also, it doesn't appear a lot of people feel that competition is needed since 
KE wasn't able to sell enough product to run in the black. I would say that if 
enough people wanted competition then they would have been buying KE products 
as fast as they could get their hands on them (maybe two or three copies at a 
pop). More likely it was this same competition that hurt KE. With so many 
products available most players have to pick and choose...someone's product 
isn't going to get bought. Thus, KE can't get in the black even though they 
were producing excellent material.

To me it doesn't appear that the facts agree with the fears. 

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         07:47:25
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com












Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 08:15:59 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: Re:ASL:KE (burning those feed us)

------------------------
  From: Steve and Kay Garvey <sgarvey@voyager.net>
  Subject: Re:ASL:KE (burning those feed us)
  Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 06:53:59 -0400 
  To: ASL Mailing list <Advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu>

>  My question, has the ASL public, ie; this List,
> quashed the enthusiasm of KE? Mike took some greif
> over KE policy decisions, couple that with "no"
> financial reward...
>  My point, should we take care when flaming those
> who "feed" the hobby? We are of course, talking
> about mere people.
>  Steve5+2

Oh please...there were maybe 4-5 guys who had any problem with "KE policy 
decisions" on the freebes for March madness. If that was enough to send them 
over the edge then they were just a retirement looking for an excuse. Besides, 
I will say it again, how can anyone be upset when people are screaming to be 
able to just have the opportunity to buy your stuff. There are major 
corporations spending millions a year in advertisement trying to generate that 
kind of "problem".

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         08:15:59
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com











Date: Mon, 24 May 99 10:42:28 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

> Let me point out a couple of things about this "holy grail" of competition...
> 
> First, the majority of the core SL/ASL system was developed and produce during
> an era without one iota of competition.

	Let's see if I can dig out the Holy Handgrenade of Antioch.
	Tate mentioned BV, Yanks and RB. They are all great. We all love them! On the
other hand, when people look into their counter-storage systems (God, how generic can
one get?! :-)), how many shades of Russians do they see? However, let's put that aside
and investigate the very very first product: The ASLRB. The Rulebook to end all 
rulebooks, uh, Q&A;, I mean. I would like people to think for a second now. How much
pressure would there be - if there were competition - on AH to fix a very fundamental
mistake like the hex-location duality when the product first came out? At this day
and age when we form virtual lynch mobs on the net, call in Panda Squads, send off
posses of emails for much more superficial errors, how would we have treated such
an error and wouldn't it have been taken care of in some way, if there were the threat
of a second source for the rules? (Never mind the bocage and others, btw.)

	Yes, there should never be a second source of rules, but at least we can see
how errors can go unfixed in an environment when the originator of the error is in
such a dominating position that he doesn't feel the need to address such requests.

	On the other hand, one cannot say that a monopoly never produces anything good.
The problem is when it doesn't, one cannot do much against it. It's the same 
misconception about democracy: The common belief that it's the best type of 
governing because it always produces good governments is not true. Some elected
governments are terrible whereas a monarchy ruled by a great statesman can flourish.
The beauty of democracy is, though, the ability to _change_ the people who govern 
next time around while the monarch is there for life whether he can herd a flock of
geese for a day or not...

	take care,
	Bahadir







Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 12:44:05 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

------------------------
  From: Bahadir Erimli <erimli@systems.caltech.edu>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Mon, 24 May 99 10:42:28 PDT 
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu, lrogers@arrow.com, sushi@cadvision.com

> I would like people to think for a second now. How much
> pressure would there be - if there were competition - on AH to fix a very 
fundamental
> mistake like the hex-location duality when the product first came out? At 
this day
> and age when we form virtual lynch mobs on the net, call in Panda Squads, 
send off
> posses of emails for much more superficial errors, how would we have treated 
such
> an error and wouldn't it have been taken care of in some way, if there were 
the threat
> of a second source for the rules? (Never mind the bocage and others, btw.)

Never mind that even the immaculate ToT's have their own errata. Certainly not 
as extensive as the ASLRB. But if taken as a ratio of what is being covered 
and the difficulty of the job...I think they are about the same. So it seems 
that KE, facing a very competitive market, still had it's own fair share of 
errata. IOW, competition doesn't equal perfection...never has...never will.

> 	Yes, there should never be a second source of rules, but at least we 
can see
> how errors can go unfixed in an environment when the originator of the error 
is in
> such a dominating position that he doesn't feel the need to address such 
requests.

Sure, of course this glosses over the light years in difference between the 
people running the show then and the people running the show now. That is, MMP 
is composed of ASL players. Their desire/need to do an outstanding job far 
exceeds any of their predecessors in the "Official ASL" arena.

> The problem is when it doesn't, one cannot do much against it. 

That is a crock! This ain't like having a monopoly in electricity, food 
distribution, and/or water. You can go on living without another ASL product. 
I mean there is enough stuff out there already to last a couple of life times. 
Not only that, but if (and this is a big _IF_) MMP/Hasbro drops the ball like  
AH did then we will see the rise of TPM's again (that is assuming they all go 
the way of KE in the first place...which I doubt!). _IF_ MMP starts producing 
crap people will stop buying it, monopoly or not. As I look at my AP#2 I see 
little to fear at this time!

I suspect we will continue to see scenario packs, newsletters, and independent 
rags from the TPM just as it is now. However, counters, maps, rules, etc. will 
be left to the "Official ASL" producer...as it should be.

> The beauty of democracy is, though, the ability to _change_ the people who 
govern 
> next time around while the monarch is there for life whether he can herd a 
flock of
> geese for a day or not...

As noted, if MMP drops the ball then someone will pick it up. It has happened 
before, no reason to think it wouldn't happen again.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         12:44:06
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com










Date: Mon, 24 May 99 13:39:39 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

This time I totally agree with Tate:
 
> Never mind that even the immaculate ToT's have their own errata.
 
        Yes, the ToT's were immaculate and they had errata.
 
> Certainly not as extensive as the ASLRB.
 
        Certainly not. I don't think there were any particular rules that needed more
than two Q&A; each. You're right that we can't say the same thing about ASLRB.
 
> IOW, competition doesn't equal perfection...never has...never will.
 
        Absolutely. It's nice to see you agree that competition equals improvement,
advancement, higher quality, but not perfection. Thank you.
 
> Sure, of course this glosses over the light years in difference between the
> people running the show then and the people running the show now.
 
        Yes, it does gloss over the difference that the people running the show were
the originators of the concepts and the people running the show now are merely
interpreting it. I apologize for not articulating on this.
 
> > The problem is when it doesn't, one cannot do much against it.
> 
> That is a crock!
 
        That, most certainly, is!
 
> This ain't like having a monopoly in electricity, food distribution, and/or water.
 
        No, it ain't.
 
> You can go on living without another ASL product.
 
        Exactly! In fact, this clearly explains the lack of complaining when AH
dropped the ball a few years ago.
 
> I mean there is enough stuff out there already to last a couple of life times
 
        And the immortal members of the list will carry on buying everything that
comes out for the later years.
 
> Not only that, but if (and this is a big _IF_) MMP/Hasbro drops the ball like
> AH did then we will see the rise of TPM's again
 
        True! Therefore we can continue to treat them as second-class citizens, if 
not worse, because they'll definitely be there to save us when the times comes. 
 
> _IF_ MMP starts producing crap people will stop buying it, monopoly or not.
 
        Absolutely! The same way everybody refused to buy KGP II and Annual 95.
 
> However, counters, maps, rules, etc. will be left to the "Official ASL" producer...
> as it should be.

	As it should be, brother! I cannot believe how dare those bastards like
Mark and Mike and Eddie, et al. produced good counters and maps before! They should
be publicly caned...



	Thank you for agreeing with me, Tate.

	take care,
	Bahadir









Date: Mon, 24 May 1999 15:53:30 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Bahadir's Friends [was: The ASL Market (was: KE)]
 
------------------------
  From: Bahadir Erimli <erimli@systems.caltech.edu>
  Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)
  Date: Mon, 24 May 99 13:39:39 PDT
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu, lrogers@arrow.com, sushi@cadvision.com
 

 
So, basically, you got a sock puppet on each hand and they are having a
discussion about ASL competition.
 
Have fun...
 
Later-
 
-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/24/1999         15:53:30
-------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Date: Mon, 24 May 99 14:29:38 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: ASL: Re:  Bahadir's Friends [was: The ASL Market (was: KE)]
 
> <Deleted Pointless Drivel From Bahadir>
 
        Those werely mostly what you said, though.
 
> So, basically, you got a sock puppet on each hand and they are having a
> discussion about ASL competition.
 
        Neah, only one is enough. You're more than capable of emulating a second
sock puppet.
 
        take care,
        Bahadir
 
 
PS      I should've listened to the people who tried to warn me about arguing with Tate.
 
 






 
From: "TTO" <tophus@online.no>
Subject: Making your own products (Was: ASL: ASL product's, KE, MMP, ect.)
Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:04:58 +0200
 
What to do is dependant on whether you want to make money on it or not. If you want it di
stributed in the stores as part of a game I guess you have to go through the people who o
wns the licence.
 
If, however, this is your contribution to the ASL hobby just print them yourself and let
whoever is interested order them from you at the cost of print and post/handling and some
 bucks for the time and effort. The important thing is that neither the ASL name, logo or
 patented patterns are used for advertising such products.
I see no violation of copyrights here because you're just offering a set of homemade coun
ters which could be for any boardgame out there - and it isn't even in competition with t
he official product.
 
I have a related story of something I did myself:
 
I made a game around 7-8 am one fine sunday morning after 2 days of gaming (and no sleep)
 at a local gaming convention back in 88. It's a parody of war/boardgames in general but
still very playable and has some interesting mechanics in it. We've had lotsa fun with it
 at cabintrips with a case of beer and such and I thought I'd make it available for whoev
er could be interested but realizing no serious company would go for it - I have to make
them myself. Next is advertizing and the natural option is the web ( http://home.sol.no/~
tophus/games/games.htm (PigWars english text)) cause any other way won't be worth the eff
ort. Naturally there's no money in a thing like this cause printing cost is high as well
as the time printing it out and putting it together so I look at it as my contribution to
 the fun and fine hobby boardgames are.
 
Since this is my own creation it isn't completely analogue with producing biproducts for
existing games but hopefully it gives an idea.
 
- Tord
 
 
>What is a person to do when they have developed a product that there is
>a market for and offered it to MMP but has bin politely turned away?
>
>You did not answer the question want to try again? Or does some one else want to?
>
>I think that the answer is that you go ahead and make it and the market place will
>decide.
 








Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 12:59:03 -0700
From: "Connell, Dave" <dave.connell@lmco.com>
Subject: ASL: ASL-Tate (was: The ASL Market (was: KE))
 
Hi Guys,
 
   Sorry, no ASL Content here.  I was reading Bahadir's comments (Digest
Mode) and I thought of an old Joke that was passed around the company:
 
> >> THE TATE FAMILY
> >>
> >> Do you know how many members of the Tate family who  belong to your
> >> Church
> >>
> >> There is old man Dic-Tate who wants to run everything,  while Uncle
> >> Ro-Tate tries to change everything.
> >>
> >> There's sister Agi-Tate who stirs Up plenty of trouble, with  help from
> >> her husband, Irri-Tate.
> >>
> >> Whenever new projects are suggested, Hesi-Tate and his wife, Vege-Tate,
> >> want to wait until next year.
> >>
> >> Then there is Aunt Imi-Tate, who wants our church to be like all the
> >> others.     Devas-Tate provides the voice of doom, while Poten-Tate
> wants
> >> to be a big shot.
> >>
> >> But not all members of the family are bad.
> >>
> >> Brother Facili-Tate is quite helpful in church matters.  And a
> >> delightful, happy member of the family is Miss Felici-Tate.
> >>
> >> Cousins Cogi-Tate and  Medi-Tate always think things over and lend
> >> helpful, steady hands.
> >>
> >> And of course  there is the black sheep of the family, Ampu-Tate,
> >> who has completely cut himself off from the church.
> >>
> >> How about it-do you know anyone in the "Tate" family?
> 
Dave "Muddy Pig Cheerleader" Connell
dconnel@ix.netcom.com
dave.connell@lmco.com











Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:21:35 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Craig Limber" <craig.limber@west.gecems.com>
Subject: ASL: KE signs off


Sorry if this appears twice.  I am not sure if the first message made
it so I am resending it.

Anyways, Grant wrote:

> While I don't dispute Hasbro's right to shut down the 3PP, I think it
> is stupid. If they are sucessful, the amount of ASL released in a year
> will be severly curtailed (although it will once again be possible to
> buy everything :). 3PP enhance interest; variety is always good, choice
> is always good. Not just variety in topic, but variety of approach. 

For me, I got into ASL a long time ago (my rulebook has NO errata) but
almost never played (maybe once every two years).  It seemed to me that ASL
was, well, *dead*  That changed when I discovered and started surfing all of
the TPM websites.  "Wow, look at all of this stuff!"  I started to have a
look at them at the game stores and through friends who had a copy.  I was
very impressed and bought a few.  I then read the fine print:

"This product requires ownership of KGPII..."
"This product requires ownership of Croix de Guerre..."
"This product requires ownership of Gung Ho!..."
etc.

Ok, no problemo.

"Hello, Boulder games?  Please send me modules 5 through 10, KGPII, 
Hedgerow Hell and every ASL Annual in stock that I don't have.  Thanks."
*click*.  I then went out and bought a new bookcase just to hold all of
my ASL stuff.

The energy and enthusiasm of the TPMs have done MUCH to revive my interest
in ASL and I now play it more than I play any other games.

Craig










Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 10:25:55 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off



------------------------
  From: Craig Limber <craig.limber@west.gecems.com>
  Subject: ASL: KE signs off
  Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:21:35 -0600 (MDT) 
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu

> "This product requires ownership of KGPII..."
> "This product requires ownership of Croix de Guerre..."
> "This product requires ownership of Gung Ho!..."
> etc.

KGPII requires ownership of BV, Yanks, and KGPI...
CdG requires ownership of BV, Yanks, and WoA...
Gung Ho! requires ownership of BV, Yanks, WoA, and CoB...

IOW, even without the TPM "Official ASL" would have it's own synergy. 

Also, not every TPM product was a work of art. It is possible that we have 
lost potential players because they bought a TPM product and were disappointed 
to the point of never playing again. Having all this "uncontrolled" ASL 
product spewing out into the market place is a double edge sword.

> The energy and enthusiasm of the TPMs have done MUCH to revive my interest
> in ASL and I now play it more than I play any other games.

If they _REALLY_ love the hobby then the energy and enthusiasm of the TPM will 
continue. It will just be routed through more concentrated and legal avenues. 
The scenario packs, rags, and newsletters will likely continue. All that is 
really happening is that counters, maps, and rules will be the exclusive 
domain of "Official ASL". 

In truth the TPM step all over each other as much as they might step on 
"Official ASL" products. I just don't think it is necessarily good for the 
hobby for every bodies _pet_ ASL project to see print.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/26/1999         10:25:55
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com












Date: Wed, 26 May 99 10:28:11 PDT
From: erimli@systems.caltech.edu (Bahadir Erimli)
Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off

> > "This product requires ownership of KGPII..."
> > "This product requires ownership of Croix de Guerre..."
> > "This product requires ownership of Gung Ho!..."
> > etc.
>
> KGPII requires ownership of BV, Yanks, and KGPI...
> CdG requires ownership of BV, Yanks, and WoA...
> Gung Ho! requires ownership of BV, Yanks, WoA, and CoB...
> 
> IOW, even without the TPM "Official ASL" would have it's own synergy. 

	Tate, the guy is saying that the TPM stuff he bought caused him to buy modules
like KGPII, CdG and Gung Ho, NOT BV or Yanks.

	take care,
	Bahadir








From: Ronmosher@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:29:49 EDT
Subject: Re: ASL: Re: The ASL Market (was: KE)

In a message dated 5/24/99 10:44:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, 
erimli@systems.caltech.edu writes:

>  call in Panda Squads

been botherin' me for weeks, err days, well maybe minutes--

it's "Koala Squads" -- geesh!!

Argh,

ron (list curmudgeon and acerbic Priest in the High Holy Church of ASL)
writing at 9:31:53 PM, 
on Wednesday, May 26, 1999
from Brea, California











Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:21:39 -0500
From: David Prasse <burgess4@gte.net>
Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off

Lloyd Tate Rogers wrote:
> 
> ------------------------
>   From: Craig Limber <craig.limber@west.gecems.com>
>   Subject: ASL: KE signs off
>   Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 09:21:35 -0600 (MDT)
>   To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu
> 
> > "This product requires ownership of KGPII..."
> > "This product requires ownership of Croix de Guerre..."
> > "This product requires ownership of Gung Ho!..."
> > etc.
> 
> IOW, even without the TPM "Official ASL" would have it's own synergy.

Not really--I left ASL a long time ago.
The HASL of the TPM brought my interest back(the USvsGerman HASLs to be
exact)

By "Official ASL synergy" - do you mean,after I buy DB , I HAVE to BUY
AP#2 for rules updates from the DB rules,or to update KPII counters , I
must buy DB ; or,to have any hope of having an up to date rulebook, I
have to keep up buying the Journals and find annuals I may not have?

That is why I gave up on ASL years ago,as a system.
Always had to buy the next module to fix the rules
or counters from a different module--sounds like
your arguement dealing with the many PL versions

> 
> Also, not every TPM product was a work of art. It is possible that we have
> lost potential players because they bought a TPM product and were disappointed
> to the point of never playing again.

I would say that AH handling of ASL drove people away long before the
TPM uprising--the TPM may have brought more people in-also

> Having all this "uncontrolled" ASL
> product spewing out into the market place is a double edge sword.

The market place should "control " offerings


> The scenario packs, rags, and newsletters will likely continue. All that is
> really happening is that counters, maps, and rules will be the exclusive
> domain of "Official ASL".

TPM HASL is what brought me back--endless repitition of geo-board
scenarios got old for me--SASL is the best use for geo-boards,IMO.

> 
> I just don't think it is necessarily good for the
> hobby for every bodies _pet_ ASL project to see print.

so we only see "official pet projects" ?

dave Prasse

> 
> Later-
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>                        05/26/1999         10:25:55
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tate Rogers
> E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com











Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:24:40 -0400
From: Karl Wasmuth <kwasmuth@mailbox.syr.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off

"It is possible that we have lost potential players because they bought
a TPM product and were disappointed to the point of never playing
again." -- Holy Honkin' Bunny Rabbits!

I've been following this discussion; both sides (as usual for this list)
have some points I agree with, but please...

I find it impossible to picture anyone making the fanatical investment
of time, money, space, etc that this hobby involves, only to dump the
whole thing because a $20 add-on/non-required/supplimental whatzit
didn't make them happy.

To head off a possible counter-argument; potential players who aren't
ASLers and picked up a TPM and got confused/put off... Almost anyone new
coming into this who starts by buying anything other than ASLRB/BV or SL
(even official AH product) is just as likely to be diverted.

Back to the trenches -- Karl













Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 12:22:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Belford <pete@otterspace.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off

Karl,

Excellent point.  

Just this AM I was figuring how much I have invested in the game.  I
bought a used set, bought most of the new modules at a discount place (I
got DB, COB, and GH for less than $100 with shipping), sold much of the
stuff that I did not want or need, and bought very little TP stuff.

Still I have spent over $475.  That is a lot of semolians.  To date I have
completed 99 games after being in the hobby 20 months.  That is a cost of
almost $5 per game.

Pete


On Thu, 27 May 1999, Karl Wasmuth wrote:

> "It is possible that we have lost potential players because they bought
> a TPM product and were disappointed to the point of never playing
> again." -- Holy Honkin' Bunny Rabbits!
> 
> I've been following this discussion; both sides (as usual for this list)
> have some points I agree with, but please...
> 
> I find it impossible to picture anyone making the fanatical investment
> of time, money, space, etc that this hobby involves, only to dump the
> whole thing because a $20 add-on/non-required/supplimental whatzit
> didn't make them happy.
> 
> To head off a possible counter-argument; potential players who aren't
> ASLers and picked up a TPM and got confused/put off... Almost anyone new
> coming into this who starts by buying anything other than ASLRB/BV or SL
> (even official AH product) is just as likely to be diverted.
> 
> Back to the trenches -- Karl
> 
> 












From: jappel@anodyne.com
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:39:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off

Pete groans:

> Still I have spent over $475.  That is a lot of semolians.  To date I have
> completed 99 games after being in the hobby 20 months.  That is a cost of
> almost $5 per game.

Now, that's a strategy I have to try on my wife.

"Dear, I need to play more ASL.  The more games I play, the faster 
I'll amortize the cost of buying everything."

Yeah, that'll work. 8-)

John "If I count playtesting, I'm down to about $2.50 a game - or 
.002 cents for a game of "Howard's Men"..." Appel












Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:25:22 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off

------------------------
  From: David Prasse <burgess4@gte.net>
  Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off
  Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:21:39 -0500 
  To: ASL <advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu>

> That is why I gave up on ASL years ago,as a system.
> Always had to buy the next module to fix the rules
> or counters from a different module--sounds like
> your arguement dealing with the many PL versions

Not really, PL was completely reworked twice. The ASLRB has seen some errata 
but it is 95% the same core rules that were published originally. The only 
additions are theater specific and/or HASL specific rules which you are _NOT_ 
forced to buy. That is, if you are not interested in PTO then just skip CoB 
and GH. As well, all the errata pages/counters are available for purchase 
_sans_ the modules. So, giving up ASL for those reasons seems...well...silly.

> I would say that AH handling of ASL drove people away long before the
> TPM uprising--the TPM may have brought more people in-also

I don't think AH was driving a lot of people away. They simply weren't 
bringing people in and/or maintaining much enthusiasm. Reason being that they 
weren't producing much and some of what they produced (KGP, Annual '95) wasn't 
worth having.

BTW, AH ain't in charge any longer.

> The market place should "control " offerings

In a broad based market place you would be right. In a extremely small niche 
market like wargamming of which ASL is an even smaller niche (i.e., a niche 
within a niche)...no freaking way. The ASL market may not even be big enough 
to adequately support 1 "Official ASL" supplier. In such a market multiple 
suppliers producing multiple products at the same time means it is unlikely 
that any of those suppliers will be in the black. 

If all you want to do is produce scenario packs, a 'zine, and/or a newsletter 
you may stand a chance since the overhead for those type products will be 
lower than for the ToT style module with counters and maps. Particularly if 
you stay with B&W; production.

> TPM HASL is what brought me back--endless repitition of geo-board
> scenarios got old for me--SASL is the best use for geo-boards,IMO.

I like HASL, in fact CG are my favorite. But how many people have the time to 
actually play 3-4 CG a year (which is about what we are getting). Not many I 
would warrant. Not to mention playing 3-4 CG while dozens of new scenarios 
languish about.

The market is rapidly approaching a saturation level it has never experienced 
before and it may not be good for the hobby. Speaking rhetorically, how many 
people really are interested in Korea and/or Spanish Civil war? Will there be 
enough interest for a 5K run on each? Well, some folks are screaming for it 
but who wants to foot the bill? Does it bother anyone else that some fellow 
players are risking financial ruin just so a lot of selfish ASL players can 
get another ASL product which, in the face of the current glut, may never get 
played!!!

Personally, I would advise anyone thinking of becoming a TPM to wait a while. 
With the current flood of products your stuff will have to be out of this 
world to be able to get anyone's attention.

> so we only see "official pet projects" ?

Is the AP#2 a pet project? No!
How about the Journal? Hardly!
Is Armies of Oblivion? Not even close!
What about Arnhem? Maybe...but with two Arnhem modules already out it appears 
to be a very popular _pet_ project.
Are rules Q&A;/Errata _pet_ projects? Ha!

Actually, MMP is doing all the dirty work for ASL while the TPM are just 
trying to skim the cream. 

It seems to me that the idea that every conceivable military action of the 
1900's has to be made into an ASL module _RIGHT NOW_ is not good for the 
hobby. It is a very short sighted ideology.

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/27/1999         13:25:23
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com












Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 15:26:46 -0600
From: Lloyd Tate Rogers  <lrogers@arrow.com>
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off

------------------------
  From: Karl Wasmuth <kwasmuth@mailbox.syr.edu>
  Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off
  Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:24:40 -0400 
  To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu

> I find it impossible to picture anyone making the fanatical investment
> of time, money, space, etc that this hobby involves, only to dump the
> whole thing because a $20 add-on/non-required/supplimental whatzit
> didn't make them happy.

I don't...if you already have BV and then you bought "Tractor Works" and the 
PL2.0 rules...I could easily see this happening to a relative newbie who is 
trying to get his feet wet. I think members of this List forget that the 
majority of ASL players are not on this List. They are much less in "the know" 
on what is or is not a good buy in ASL for a beginner. 

Also, some of these TPM products a less than obvious in advertising exactly 
what is required to play. 

Later-

-------------------------------------------------------------------
                       05/27/1999         15:26:46
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Tate Rogers
E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com












Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Karl Edward Wasmuth <kwasmuth@mailbox.syr.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off



On Thu, 27 May 1999, Lloyd Tate Rogers wrote:

> ------------------------
>   From: Karl Wasmuth <kwasmuth@mailbox.syr.edu>
>   Subject: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off
>   Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:24:40 -0400 
>   To: advanced-sl@list.pitt.edu
> 
> > I find it impossible to picture anyone making the fanatical investment
> > of time, money, space, etc that this hobby involves, only to dump the
> > whole thing because a $20 add-on/non-required/supplimental whatzit
> > didn't make them happy.
> 
> I don't...if you already have BV and then you bought "Tractor Works" and the 
> PL2.0 rules...I could easily see this happening to a relative newbie who is 
> trying to get his feet wet. I think members of this List forget that the 
> majority of ASL players are not on this List. They are much less in "the know" 
> on what is or is not a good buy in ASL for a beginner. 

Sure... but the same thing could happen if the next purchase after BV is
one of the PTO or HASL modules.
> 
> Also, some of these TPM products a less than obvious in advertising exactly 
> what is required to play. 
> 

True -- but the "required to play" question opens up a whole 'nother can
of worms... Karl

> Later-
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>                        05/27/1999         15:26:46
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Tate Rogers
> E-mail: lrogers@arrow.com
> 
> 
















From: BKMartin26@aol.com
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:29:31 EDT
Subject: Re: Re: Re: ASL: KE signs off

In a message dated 5/27/99, 4:20:25 PM, lrogers@arrow.com writes:

>They are much less in "the know" on what is or is not a good buy in ASL for 
a >beginner. 

In actuality, the advent of the TPM market has made things *tougher* for a 
newbie when it comes to deciding what to buy.

When I started playing ASL in 1992, there wasn't any TPM stuff in my local 
hobby shop, and I hadn't heard of the ASLML at all ... so my only source was 
AH.  And it was easy to follow ... BV was module #1, etc, etc.  Follow the 
module numbers, and you had the whole system.

In 1999, we have not only MMP/HASBRO, but everyone else.  When newbies now 
surf the net, they find a myriad of choices, and no clear guidance as to 
where they should start.  If they subscribe to the ASLML, they won't get a 
clear picture of what is most important, either.

And, let's face it, discussions *about* TPM products on *this* list are so 
full of "these guys are great" versus "these guys suck" .... that a newbie 
couldn't possibly know which end is up.

It's also difficult to give good advice, too.  I've worked on no less than 
ten drafts of a "What Do You Need To Get Started In ASL" article for the 
ASLBB because, although *I* have opinions on what every newbie needs ... it's 
very open to debate ... and I don't want to steer anyone in the *wrong* 
direction.

But the marketplace in 1999 is much more complex for new players (especially 
when they aren't even able to buy an ASLRB) than it was even a few short 
years ago ...

Brien



















From: "Curt Schilling" <gabby38@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: ASL: KE signs off
Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 23:52:19 -0400


> 
> By "Official ASL synergy" - do you mean,after I buy DB , I HAVE to BUY
> AP#2 for rules updates from the DB rules,or to update KPII counters , I
> must buy DB ; or,to have any hope of having an up to date rulebook, I
> have to keep up buying the Journals and find annuals I may not have?

	Actually no. We printed up the chapter B rules from DB and added Towers
and stream/multiple terrain onto this because a hex or two onthe AP maps
contains this terrain and is the first Geo board to do so. But AP#2 is not
required to play ASL. There is a rather lengthy list of boards and overlays
needed to play the scenarios contained in AP#2 however.

> 
> That is why I gave up on ASL years ago,as a system.
> Always had to buy the next module to fix the rules
> or counters from a different module--sounds like
> your arguement dealing with the many PL versions

	A problem we cannot solve with the current ASL system but one which we are
clearly trying to address with Intro/Starter ASL.
	Curt