As anticipated.

Syria is also condemning the summit and the roadmap as being pro-Israel.

no suprise there...

To these people, the very fact that the Americans are breathing indicates they'e pro-Israel.

I think this was a good sign that the Arab "leaders" reacted this way. I think W just gave them one of his famous offers you can't refuse. Something like "it's my way or the highway (via a GPS missile up your ass)"

Pretty soon a qualification for president will be fluency in Arabic, just so the president knows what the Jihadis, and their supporters, are really saying without having to rely on/trust a translator. English for US consumption and Arabic for Jihadi consumption has got to go.

When is Bush going to wake up! He's supposed to be fighting a war against terror, so why is he pushing for the creation of another terrorist state?

Wake up Bush!

They couldn't even agree to host Sharon in any of their &*#@$ countries!

Abbas refused to proclaim Palestinian acceptance of Israel as a Jewish state!

Who could possibly believe this roadmap to hell is going to work???

/scream

F*ck them. The arabs are beyond reasoning or diplomacy. Israel shouldn't give them an inch.

#8 Halflife

I bet VFI will give it a hearty endorsement!

/sarcasm off (but I wouldn't be surprised)

F*ck them. The arabs are beyond reasoning or diplomacy. Israel shouldn't give them an inch.

Oxymoron? :-)

I think at this point we can be reasonably assured this Administration is not stupid. There is a plan B if this Roadmap fails (which it will). I am not privy to plan B but, I don't think it will NOT be comfotable for our little Arab Despots.

...from Debka file....

DEBKAfile Exclusive revelations ahead of Aqaba Summit

-- Abu Mazen will report to Bush most Palestinian factions consent to halt “routine” shooting, mortar, explosives attacks on Israelis and confine themselves “only” to major suicide strikes, keeping them spaced out

what is this shit.??????????/

Damn. Consider the bold, non-bold and vice versa.

Actually, just ignore me.

Sorry for the double negative.....you get my drift.

I believed that Bush was pushing this roadmap as a vehicle to dismantle, or at least weaken, Hamas and Jihadi Salami. This is even now hopeless.

They still don't get it. Kill Syria and tell Egypt they're next.

#13 ploome

Wouldn't surprise me, actually.

Bush tried and failed not for lack of trying. Hey, we tried and the Middle East is not a willing participant. Sharon can also say, Hey, Israel was willing to do their part but no matter what we do, the Middle East wants no peace.

IMHO this opens the door for the beginning of the end of the Arab world.

Nothing this part of the world does surprises anyone anymore. I believe that Bush knew before he even left for the Middle East that nothing would change but he had to at least hold out the olive branch. He did, nothing has changed so "screw em".

If the Arabs wanted to better things in their world you would think the message to the populace at large would be positive re the big mess between Israel and the Palestinians but it's obvious they don't regardless of what they tell the West (behind closed doors.)

It's hopeless. We should just go into Iran and blow up their nuclear facilities and be done with it. Next comes N. Korea. To hell with collateral damage. We'll clean up the mess later. Nothing today has any shock value to people anymore anyway.

I'm rambling out of frustration and so I bid you all aloha.

I know I'm a light-weight in this awesome forum, and I hope I dont get jumped for being simple, but it seems to me that Bush is helping Islam leaders expose themselves as close minded weaklings. He's playing them, giving them the opportunity to grow up or hang themselves with all the rope given freely.

There is no way to dismantle the terrorist groups without killing them. As for Arab promises to cut funding to terrorists, their empty words are worth less than their weight in camel shit.

OK, why is this in Debka? No offense to Debka, but it isn't something you can site in casual company. If there are plenty of witnesses, or it's in the Arab press, why the hell would it not be reported by our mainstream media? Any failure to report something this important and timely would be like city traffic engineers deciding not to fix a traffic light that shows "green" on all sides.

If they are speculating, even correctly, this helps no one. They've got some credibility, but not enough to call heads of states on the carpet over.

20 Teal Marie

we can only hope thats his plan...

and also, thank you again Charles, for this awesome forum.!!!

Henry Kissinger wrote, in The White House Years: «We, on the other hand, have an incentive to minimize such evidence, since the consequences of finding violations are so unpleasant (emphasis mine). Violations force us to choose between doing something about them and thus risk the blowup of our initiative; or doing nothing and thus renege on our promises to Israel, posing the threat of her taking military action. Accordingly, we tend to lean over backwards to avoid the conclusion that the Arabs are violating the cease-fire unless the evidence is unambiguous.»

As a poll reported in The International Herald Tribune notes,
most Muslim populations believe the needs of Palestinians cannot be met so long as the state of Israel exists.

The US wants to believe we can impose peace in the Middle East, so we have to ignore the evidence.

The article just below this one, on the mass graves of children found in Iraq, somehow sums up everything you need to know about Arabs. Hateful, evil, and their own worst enemy. If I had a god, I would pray daily that the world be rid of them.

#20 Teal Marie Precisely.

(If they 'jump' you, to hell with 'em.)

arabs seethe = redundancy

Teal Marie wrote:

... it seems to me that Bush is helping Islam leaders expose themselves as close minded weaklings. He's playing them, giving them the opportunity to grow up or hang themselves with all the rope given freely.

That has been Bush's model for everything from dealing with Congress to the UN. I would bet he is using it again. When Bush thinks he has the moral high ground nothing can change his decision on what and what not to do.

#20, Teal Marie

I'm sure this was the reason for calling out the arab leaders at this meeting before the Israeli/pali "summit". Bush always wants to know where everyone stands. The real question is what he does about it. Does he keep pushing the road map and force Israel to make further concessions in spite of the obvious futility of the venture, and at the cost of innocent lives? Or, does he say that the arabs are solely to blame for the palestinian problem and support Israel dropping the roadmap? State Dept. -v- Gut, which will he listen to?

#22 - I sent this to Charles and thought the same thing - why no mention in mainstream press? So, I checked AP and Reuters and UPI and generally they are saying "Mubarak sidestepped the issue of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's absence from the summit, which was at Israeli and U.S. insistence. He did so by promising to continue Egyptian assistance "solely to the Palestinian Authority," rather than any particular PA leader. " (from UPI) They aren't going to come right out and say the Arabs are the spoilers, just as no major news agency see fit to report the fact that the Egyptians (who have a 'peace treaty' with Israel) would not even meet with Sharon.

Here's the best quote of the day:

This afternoon, with the Red Sea at their backs, Mr. Bush and the Arab leaders appeared briefly to issue two carefully-worded statements that included the strongest words yet by the Arab states committing themselves to end any aid to Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror organizations.

"We will ensure that our assistance to the Palestinians goes solely to the Palestinian Authority," President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt said.

Ending Palestinian terror by sending money directly to Arafat. Brilliant.

What a sick fucking charade this is. I think I need to take a break from the news for a couple of days.

#20 You hit it right on the head Teal Marie. Bush's "Roadmap" is similar to Res. 1441. He knew Saddam would never comply just as he knows the Palis will never comply with this. It's a necessary step in emphasizing the problem to the global community. The more proposals refused by the Arabs, the sooner the rest of the world will recognize how unreasonable they are (maybe, hopefully... well... probably not, but a few countries will, just like with Iraq).

#28

Always take the moral high road.

There's absolutely no one driving there, it's a virtual free-way.

Again, it's the pants, not the Jews. If only the Arab leaders shared the same worldview.....

It's time to end the occupation and begin transfer and annexation.

Yawn.

Same old same old.

Anyone think they can put a positive spin on this:

NATO Heads Discuss Peacekeeping Force for Middle East

(IsraelNN.com) Nato general secretary George Robertson has announced that the members of NATO met earlier today in Madrid to discuss the possibility of sending a peacekeeping force to the Middle East as part of a general regional peace agreement. The representatives of the member countries are discussing the matter after being informed by the US of the steps it has been taken to restore calm in the areas of Judea Samaria and Gaza.

http://www.israelnat...

see the story at www.arabnews.com

#37 aaron

Bah. The U.N. cannot send "peacekeeping" troops without the consent of the country in which they are being deployed. Seeing how the U.N. has secured the Lebanese border for terrorists only, there is no way Israel will accept that. No way at all, not even if the U.S. tried to pressure us into it.

NC,

This quote gets my vote:

Secretary of State Colin Powell urged the representatives of Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to normalize relations with Israel. Normalization of diplomatic relations would support Israel as it goes into the peace process, Powell said. However, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faissal al-Saud said while his country supports a full settlement to the conflict, it does not view sporadic Arab steps towards normalizations as conductive to an agreement.

#39  Caton, I hear what you say. Do note that it's NATO, not the UN, that we're talking about.

Any faith I may have had re: the Bush administration's intentions are gone, replaced by grave reservations on a good day, and extreme distrust the rest of the time.

Maybe that's just my problem...

Teal Marie (#20),

Nicely put.

We've seen GWB do this before.
He "appears" to be walking in the wrong direction while his foes relax and take him for a simpleton, and lets the rest of us SCREAM for him to pay attention to all the contrary evidence.

And then conveniently has 200,000 troops on the ready with battle plans in hand.

It sure is a good thing for the LLL that GW is as dumb as he is. Right?

UN Peacekeeping troops aren't doing well anywhere in the world. I don't remember the particular African country - IR Congo, I think, but it might be Nigeria - the UN troops are holed up and under attack by the rebels. They're crying for reinforcements and more arms and are being ignored.

I don't think that the US should send Americans to serve in the UN peacekeepers anymore.

The point is: UN peackeepers are pretty useless. (Is it redundant to say that since UN is in the title?)

#41 aaron

NATO cannot send "peacekeeping" troops to any country without the U.N. stamp of approval, which turns them into U.N. "peacekeepers". Or do you seriously think NATO plans to invade Israel?

Seems to me that Bush is doing exactly the same thing he did in Afghanistan and Iraq. He's patiently feeding the Arab leaders all the rope they'll need to hang themselves.

Expect this to be the beginning of a 6-month to one-year process. During this process, Bush is going to apply more and more pressure on the Palestinians. I suspect that in the end it will result in Bush waging war on Arafat and his terrorist groups. The way I see it, this CANNOT happen until a Palestinian state is created, which is why Bush is advancing the "road map", even though it is obvious that the road map is not viable.

Once a Palestinian state is created, and the attacks against Israel continue, then Bush will be in a position to effect a "regime change" in Palestine, which will mean killing Arafat and sending in U.S. troops to occupy the newly created Palestine and work on developing a democracy. Having the U.S. controlling the new Palestine will greatly stabilize the situation. First off, it won't be Israel occupying the territories, which makes the Arab world insane. By then, Iraq should be so vastly improved that the Palestinians will have reason to welcome a U.S occupation. Israel will be able to politically disconnect themselves from the situation by withdrawing their troops. Israel will be minding their own business, which will strip the critics of Israel of their primary rhetorical weapon - that Israel is the "aggressor" in the region.

Finally, the U.S. occupying administration will not permit the transformation of Palestine into a terrorist/puppet state dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Any Arab administration would do exactly that.

I think Bush is doing just fine.

taquiyya-taquiyya-taquiyya--whose surprised by this shit-- limited cease fire will come-- modified pause in terror--establishment of terror state to end all terror states on israel border -then a "terrorist rivalist" movement arises to expand the canton- like palistinean state--"we're still poor and angry because the jews have western style highrise buildings,hightech industry,abundent agriculture and we don't--we are humiliated"--roadmap to piece is roadtrap to war

Or do you seriously think NATO plans to invade Israel?

I don't think NATO plans on doing anything the US doesn't want NATO to do. And I can't find a good way to spin this bit of news. We shall see.

I just emailed the Arab News article to the President@Whitehouse.gov with the following message: "The Arabs think you are a jerk, and are jerking you around." Perhaps the autoresponder will read it and learn something.

NATO cannot send "peacekeeping" troops to any country without the U.N. stamp of approval, which turns them into U.N. "peacekeepers". Or do you seriously think NATO plans to invade Israel?

I would sure as hell like to see NATO (minus the U.S.) try. That war wouldn't last Six Days. It would be over in Six Hours.

#20 Teal Marie:

I know I'm a light-weight in this awesome forum, and I hope I dont get jumped for being simple, but it seems to me that Bush is helping Islam leaders expose themselves as close minded weaklings. He's playing them, giving them the opportunity to grow up or hang themselves with all the rope given freely.

Light-weight? Not by a longshot! You've made a spot-on assessment of Bush's strategy inre:conflict. Fools the idiots all of the time. I believe the expression coined for brilliance hiding behind a humble exterior is apt ... Dumb Like A Fox.

#45 jms if only life and foreign policy were so simple and logical---we still can't find iraqi wmd or spread central gov't power outside of kabul--your optimism is admirable but a realist dose of constructive pessimism indicates a different trendline

#45 jms

Once a state is created, according to the U.N. charter it cannot be destroyed. At most one can force "regime change". There's no undo function for state creation, not even for Arab terrorist statelets.

#48 Montaigne's Cat

...have you seen how the arabs are spinning the story, that they have accepted the 'road map' without conditions....

but the modifications and changes they are making have already become accepted.?

Gosh darn it, JMS, you beat me to it!

When I was about 2 years old, I developed a fascination for the telephone. But my parents had a big incentive to protect the telephone from my curiosity as this was in the bad old days of Ma Bell what with the single phone lines and Ma Bell owning the phones and whatnot. Therefore, I received a swat on the hand every time I touched that big old black phone. And the swats increased in intensity as I continued to touch the phone. And soon, my hands were an angry red and almost bleeding they were so raw. And soon after that, I stopped reaching for the phone.

Apparently, the two-years-olds who run most of these Middle Eastern thugocracies have not received enough swats. Bush's presence was clearly meant to gauge the necessity of administering more swats. It seems he's found his answer....

Yeah its like, we declare a war on drugs... we ask you junkies to please make sure the dealers don't peddle their wares to you. The citizens whose homes you rob during the night have promised to lay in bed quietly when you break in, you may even kill a few, as they agreed not to defend themselves... we trust you, we have faith in you... we know that the homeowners will do everything in their power to see to it that your demands are met and carried out.

I feel like a contestant on Hollywood Squares. I'm stumped.

WTH is going on?

I can only hope that Bush is playing the same game the Arabs are: maybe as the White House talks about an arms embargo against Israel, ten freighters full of advance weaponry is heading from US shores to Israel.

Anyways, all this double speak from the Arabs and the White House is making me dizzier than drinking a 12 pack of Colt 45 on a Tilt-O-Whirl.

I need a break. I think I'll attend a 3 Stooges film festival to clear my head.

Arabs are stupid! No wait, they're, unbelievably ignorant. To think that President Bush et al wouldn't have access to DEBKA and any other Arab publication. Do they really believe that GW wouldn't read these things?

It was like Chirac using an interpretor when GW was speaking. Chirac speaks perfect English and doesn't need an interpretor. GW knows that, too! It amazes how stupid people think our President is.

"Crazy like a fox" doesn't do this President justice. He thinks long and hard about everything he says and does. People think he takes too long to make decisions (ie: declaring war on Iraq) but isn't there a saying, "Good things come to he who waits." and "Patience is a virtue."?

Teal Marie is right. He's playing the Arab leaders and allowing them to show their true colors for all to see. Hopefully some mainstream media type will have the balls to pick up on what the Middle East is really saying and expose them. One can only wish!

DISGRACE.

#58 NC

Disgrace? Not by a long shot! It takes someone with a very strong stomach to pull that off!

I believe some disinfectant is in order. I propose some good old "bottled-sunshine".

What Bush should have said at his meeting with Arab despots: "Hey, you guys all suck! Why are your countries so backward? Hey Hosni, who elected you? Stop picking on Israel and get your own houses in order." Etc.

#58 NC:

[muppets]
One of these things is not like the others! One of these things can't be like the others!
[/muppets]

Wow, they're all ugly. Shrub is the least ugly in the whole line up and hey, that's pretty bad.

didnt arab TV hide a tape recorder..?

#20 Teal Marie

I agree with you that Bush is playing strategy with the Arab nations. But remeber, Israel has to play the same game and they are as adept at being violent idiots as the Arabs.

Bush can't do it by himself. The people of the middle east, both Muslims and Jews, require a multinational intervention.

The Arabs are not as stupid as you all are saying. They know exactly what the Israelis are capable of in terms of lies and spin.

salaam salaam #65,

Israel has to play the same game and they are as adept at being violent idiots as the Arabs.

Ah yes, Israel started half of the wars between Israel and the Arabs, eh? What, you mean the Arabs started every single one? ...Oh. Ah, well, Israel targets palestinians civilians? What, you mean that Arabs kills in the latest stupidfada are 77% civilian while Israel is at 37%? ...Oh. Etc.

Bush can't do it by himself. The people of the middle east, both Muslims and Jews, require a multinational intervention.

Why? Which multinational would intervene?

Until there's no more Arab rejectionism, you can have all of the multinational interventions you want and there still won't be peace. Multinational intervention might lead to the peace of the grave for the Israelis, but you don't really care about that do you?

The Arabs are not as stupid as you all are saying. They know exactly what the Israelis are capable of in terms of lies and spin.

And the Arabs never lie, right? What's that?

Buh needs to be insulted by the palestinians. maybe it will wake him up. he is such an innocent where these things are concerned. it is pretty scary to think he would send a large part of our military to iraq and leave them there while he lets the state dept. run things. if he had grown up in less priveleged circumstances he would know better.

There is nothing particularly worrying or surprising here. The Arab states are poor and horribly backwards with despicable leaders who talk out of as an many sides of their mouths as possible. But one thing has changed, and that GREATLY. Even these tin-horn dictators now have to realize that not only CAN the United States destroy them, it WILL if they don't behave. So let's not jump to so many conclusions here. Time to sit back and wait. Bush, so far, has been a man of his word (rather incredible for a politician).

bush looked them in their eyes
and said he expected them to do live up to their responsiblities.

they will get their chance to do just that.
if mazen fails, then the jig is up.

same for the rest of the arabs.
especially iran and syria.

ask Salam if Christian, or Zorastrian arabs are entitled to a soverign state

away from islam and sharia..?

Salam.......are only MUSLIMS entitled to their own states in the middle east.?

Salam....

if JEWS spoke arabic...and the ARAB Jews of Iraq Iran Egypt, wanted their own self determination, and their own state....

is that ok..?

They stabbed Bush in the back. If I were his foreign policy advisor, here's what I'd tell him to do.

The President should issue a statement immediately affirming that the only way to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is if Arafat is not part of the process. Bush then expresses a slight feeling of frustration at the denial of the process. He says not only should the Palestinian people have the opportunity to form a liberal democracy, but so should the entire Middle East.

That would be good response in my opinion.

Why, in G-d's name, is Arafat still breathing?

AP News:
"The summit dodged some ticklish points. Bush did not bring up U.S. hopes that Jordan and Egypt return their ambassadors to Israel, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said. There also was no discussion of Arab recognition of Israel, Powell said."

So what the heck did they discuss? Israel's obligations???
They all seem to agree on dismantling the settlements and taking down the checkpoints, so terrorists won't need to produce fake ID's, disguise, have tea with ISM, or ride with Italian journalists before committing mass murder.
And the Saudis want to eliminate all WMD's from the region meaning Israel's nuclear weapons. Notice how Israel is and at the same time isn't part of the region as sometimes it exists, as "the entity", and other times it doesn't, when it comes to diplomatic recognition. The region just can't come to terms with Israel's existence.

I hope Teal Marie is right, and Bush is handing out the rope. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense. Everybody wants peace with Israel, but just don't want to acknowledge it exists. It's like making peace with... 'nobody.'

What the hell is wrong with us? Why don't we take these "dogs and monkeys" at their word? And if we do, then we must conclude that there is no way that peace is coming to the Middle East so long as Israel is still intact. And maybe not even after she's gone. Ah, but then that would mean that we won't be kissing Arabian ass anymore and you know how compelling that is.

First, the UN Peacekeepers have a long tradition of doing nothing. See Rwanda, the Congo, Lebanon, Bosnia...

Second, this afternoon, there was an impromptu meeting with only the heads of state and translators, their aides excluded. I have seen no discussion of what went on, there. If there was any opportunity for W to thump the table and let the leaders understand the new rules, that would be it.

Finally, it is very common for heads of state/negotiators to use translators even if they do not need them. This is ostensibly done to avoid any confusion, but is also terribly useful as a brief moment to think through a response before speaking.

A quick dissection of the Muslim mind.

First, in the context of this exercise, ignore everything that Muslims say. Judge them by their actions.

Second, consider the ethic of "might is right." Under such an ethic, the most powerful has the right to rule. Is this the ethic of Islam?

Next, put yourself in these shoes. Consider what it would be like if you believed the most important law was "might is right." Consider that how you lived would be directly related to whether you were stronger or weaker than those around you.

Importantly, if you were strong, you would feel free to rule others. You would have no regrets in doing so. If you were weak, you would willingly accept being ruled.

Note that Muslims are weaker than the United States, and yet Muslims do not willingly accept even suggestions from the US, much less being ruled. Therefore, "might is right" is not the core belief of Islam. At least not the only core belief.

Consider the addition of another rule. In addition to "might is right," consider the rule, "Islam is right." Are "might is right" and "Islam is right" the two beliefs at the core of Islam?

Continuing, if Muslims believe in these two rules, and Islam is the greatest power on Earth, then Muslims would be quite happy, and quite willing to rule. This could be reflected in the historical age of "classical Islam," when Islam was the world's sole superpower.

Today, however, Islam is not a superpower.

Where Islam is still the strongest force, such as in Muslim countries, Muslims are capable of decreeing many just and benign laws. Thus, sexual infidelity is not accepted. Cleanliness is considered important. In short, civilization prospers, inside countries that are Islamic. Of course, there are many abuses of power, since Islam is always right, and the official representatives of Islam are able to rule over other Muslims

However, if Islam is not the mightiest power on Earth, there would be a deep contradiction in Muslim beliefs, a schism, a cognitive dissonance.

Might is still right, but Islam is not the mightiest, and thus perhaps is not right...? But no, Islam is right, and so why then is it not the mightiest? Perhaps Islam is right, and it does not seem to be the mightiest, but only because of the tricks, lies, and deceptions of the infidels. The US is only able to defeat Saddam because they used bribes and deceptions. Once the infidel is destroyed, Islam will unquestionably be the mightiest. Thus, the infidel must be destroyed. Yet, why would the infidel have to be destroyed, since Islam is the mightiest?

This dissonance could lead to frustration, despair, anger, irrationality, and hatred. Could it lead to suicide bombing?

If the two beliefs of "might is right," and "Islam is right," are the true core beliefs of Muslims, it would explain a lot of things. It would help explain the resentment, seething, hatred, irrationality, and murder.

Furthermore, note that at the core of Judeo-Christian civilization is the notion of justice, which is the exact opposite of "might is right." Thus, Judeo-Christian civilization is fundamentally incompatible with any civilization which at its core believes that might is right.

Teale marie - i hope you are right, but i don't think you are. Bush is on TV as i type demanding that Israel remove all settlements, stop harrassing "palestienans" and to give the arabs a land that can be a nation (a confirmation of the arab lie that the David and Tabas negotiations were for "islands" surrounded by jews).

Further, even if Israel and the so called Pally's reached a peace, it would be at best no warmer then the Israeli/Egyptian peace, and at worse just an easier way for the terror groups that are part and parcel of the pally MO to attack jews.

lastly, Iran and Syria still gleefully support the murderers in Lebanon and despite what happens between Israel and the pallys that will remain the same.

I am 100% pessimistic.

Where Islam is still the strongest force, such as in Muslim countries, Muslims are capable of decreeing many just and benign laws. Thus, sexual infidelity is not accepted. Cleanliness is considered important.

wow....how enlightened.....begnin laws against infidelity....murder of women is begnin..?

laws of cleanliness.....ARE YOU FKN NUTS..?

In short, civilization prospers, inside countries that are Islamic.

what drugs you takin, dude..?

Of course, there are many abuses of power, since Islam is always right, and the official representatives of Islam are able to rule over other Muslims

aaaarghhhhhhhhhhhh

The ultimate proof that WaPo is dumb/bought out beyond comprehension:

Bush sticks to the broad strokes

The president's personal relations with Middle East leaders also play a significant role in how he approaches the issues. His distaste for Yasser Arafat led to his call for new Palestinian leadership, but he is also uncertain whether Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon truly has a vision to achieve peace. The leader in the region who has won his greatest respect is Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah, who bluntly confronted the president last year over the Palestinian issue.

Eh? who wrote that? house of Saud PR department?

#20 Teal Marie
#45 JMS

I suspect you are both right. I came to blogging shortly after 9/11 and found a stunning piece from Steven den Beste laying out the path to Afghanistan in a few weeks. He argued along the same lines you are raising. He was prescient on that case and also on Iraq. This does seem to be the Bush MO.

One of the reasons he keeps getting away with it, I think, is because of the stunningly liberal U.S. press and it's hatred of Bush. Foreign leaders generally rule countries where the press is either directly controlled or fairly well muzzled by the Government. So they think the press plays the ruling elite's views. That view also sinks down to the general population. When they keep reading that Bush is a moron, they act accordingly. His tactics, plus his opponents' perception of him, are a potent winning combination.

Fortunately, in our case, it is a self annointed elite and only occasionally rules. Our perceived Alfred E. Newman of a President has just had two stunning takedowns of the Taliban and Saddam and gotten a tax cut that ties the Democrats in knots. He turns to the camera and says, "Who, me?" The question should be, "Who's next?"

BTW, I expect a major contribution from den Beste analyzing the roadmap within the next couple of weeks. With all the game theory practice and experience he has, I think he can look out as far as Pentagon and State role players can and see some odds for success and failure.

Arafat represents the interests of the arab leauge and islam

Arafat does NOT represent the 'palestinians'....

signing a peace with so called palestinians is worthless...because the war with Israel has always been fought by the arab countries....and now they have their representative, Arafat

OT btw

Primary Points From the Statements by the Group of 8

The international community has been united in fighting against international terrorism since the terrorist attacks in the United States on Sept. 11, 2001. The threat of terrorism still, however, remains serious as has been seen in a series of terrorist incidents including in Indonesia, Kenya, Morocco, Pakistan, the Philippines, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and Yemen over the past year.

so whats happening in Israel..?

#80 ploome

aaaarghhhhhhhhhhhh

Islam is not Mordor. If Islam were utterly evil, it would have killed itself off long ago. It has survived for over 1000 years. If we fail to understand what works in Islam, we will fail to truly understand Islam. I agree that we have to fight Islam. That is why I'm trying to understand it.

Islam is different than, for example, the tribes of Papua New Guinea. Islam is far more advanced. Islam is not just "might is right." There is something more to it.

Again, I'm not apologizing for Islam. I think Islam will probably die of its own dead weight at some point. That will be a good day. I'm concerned, however, that it might bring Judeo-Christian civilization down with it. Thus, it would be good to learn how to fight it most effectively.

One chink in Islam's armor is the dissonance between "might is right" and "Islam is right." Through strength, vigilance, and virtue, Judeo-Christian civilization can expose the contradiction at the heart of Islam, and be victorious.

RF...here is a site Celissa recommeded...a one way trip..

http://main.faithfre...

Islam gives the new converts a sense of belonging. They are called brother and they suddenly find a billion brothers and sisters. Their conversion and their taking the oath of allegiance (Shahadah) usually takes place in a Mosque and is accompanied by congregational praise (takbir), much hugs and congratulations. For an individual who has a low self-esteem, the experience of becoming the center of attention is so overwhelming that the impact of that experience lasts for a long time. People do anything for their 15 minutes of fame. A person’s coming to God must always be a private celebration between he and his God. However Muslims, taking advantage of this human weakness make this a public event and prize the newcomer with much fanfare. This is done deliberately and is designed to reward the convert and encourage more people to join. In fact this is a characteristic of all cults and gangs where initiation of new recruits is an important event.

Notwithstanding the show of affection and cheering, this is not a genuine love. The very people who hug and shower the new convert with unbounded friendliness will not hesitate to kill him if he chooses to change his mind and leave Islam. Converting to Islam is a one-way trip. Converting to Islam is like falling into a black hole. Once you become a Muslim there is no escape from it. You know that by leaving Islam not only you’ll lose all of your friends but also they will become your mortal enemies. Now not only you have to deal with the fear of abandonment and loneliness, you also have to be careful that your best friends do not kill you. An individual whose lack of self-esteem attracted him to Islam in the first place usually does not have the strength of character to face this much pressure. Fear of abandonment in itself is a strong deterrent to leave Islam. Fear of reprisal is an extra hurdle.

#37

NATO Heads Discuss Peacekeeping Force for Middle East

Israel will never allow it. Israel has 400 nuclear weapons & they are not just to deter the Arabs. They also deter the Europeans. If the Europeans even try to invade Israel, they get nuked.

Three points of note.

First, the White House has posted the official statements of Mubarak and Bush, for those who like to read the primary sources rather than the press coverage.

Second, I think the Arab News captured the true spirit of the official statements:

Arab leaders pledged to do all they can do to fight terrorism, whatever its motivation. The commitment was echoed by Bush, who said it covered Palestinian groups fighting Israel.

See Muslims want destruction .... #300

#85 ploome

That is the most ridiculous generalization I have ever heard about Islam. The website is faulty in its knowledge and assumptions. There are, no doubt, some crazy factions of Islam (just as there are Christian cults), but by no means does that represent the vast majority of Muslims.

In the middle east Islam is held captive by the desires of men who wish to exert their will over the people, not much unlike the moralists here in the US. It is this captivity of the religion of peace which has made it a mockery. I do not deny that the Wahhabists and the ultraconservatives have taken the language of religion and turned it into a language of hatred and separtion. But this is a historical aberration, and does not reveal the inner beauty of Islam.

I strongly believe that in many ways the USA represents the best qualities of Islam: religious freedom, gender equality, respect for all social levels and economic strata, assistance to the needy and infirm.

All of these ideals are spelled out in the Qur'an, without question and have, at times, been given the political freedom to express themselves.

The religion of Islam is not about to go away; it will not collapse under its own weight of corruption as some have argued here. Indeed, it is the fastest growing religion on earth. Why, you ask? Because it puts family first, it strengthens the community, and it strengthens the individual.

This is Rainier Wolfcastle's cue. Haven't seen him in a while.

#89 salaam

Why do you Ba'al Zebuth worshippers constantly lie about your "faith" ?

#91 Caton

Ha! Very funny. Your ignorance leads to neither bliss nor salvation.

I will not take the bait and speak about the differences and similarities among religions. I will, however, say that if you really consider Islam to be your enemy, you should know it lest you become all that you detest.

God looks after the innocent. People like you are on your own.

Note also that President Bush (yes, he is my president also) made a very impressive speech to the Arab leaders yesterday. I commend him for his frank statements about the need for leadership in the Arab world, and I commend him for stating that Israel needs to show the same kind of leadership.

#92 salaam

There is NO similarity between my religion and your death cult. Stop flattering yourself, and stop trying to appropriate everybody else's holy grounds, signs, symbols, books, and G-d Himself. Go bow in front of Ba'al Zebuth and leave my G-d alone, you dirty, lying cultist.

#93 Caton--

Are you unwilling even to entertain the possibility that Salaam's Islam is not the death cult with which you are familiar?

#92 Salaam--

Israel has been struggling with existential enemies for longer than it has existed. How exactly must Israel's behavior change, while Israel waits for its enemies to exhaust themselves and show even the slightest sign of seeking reconciliation? Israel has offered peace at virtually every stage of its existence, and has been rejected time after time.

Also, where can we LGFers find a good explication of the Islam you describe, which is so different than the Islam that we see at work in the world?

#94 Ben F

Are you unwilling even to entertain the possibility that Salaam's Islam is not the death cult with which you are familiar?

Oh, I thought it was possible until I read the usual whitewashing. See #89:

I strongly believe that in many ways the USA represents the best qualities of Islam: religious freedom, gender equality, respect for all social levels and economic strata, assistance to the needy and infirm.

I'll let a Muslim speak about religious freedom when there are as many churches in Mecca as there are mosques in Rome, and a Shul from which non-Jews are banned. I'll let a Muslim speak about gender equality when the Qu'ran is rewritten and stops saying women count for half a man. If you see what I mean.

But hey, it only got worse, still in #89:

All of these ideals are spelled out in the Qur'an, without question and have, at times, been given the political freedom to express themselves.

Islam and political freedom are not compatible, to start with. Please notice also the whitewashing of the difference between the parts of the Qu'ran written in Medina and in Mecca -- and what part is supposed to supercede which part.

That does not mean I don't think a reformation of Islam is not possible. I think it is possible. But only in the way a reformation of catholicism was done: by pointing out exactly what's rotten, and getting rid of it. Any "moderate Muslim" who attemps to whitewash Islam and divert attention from the rotten parts is just another death cultist.

#95 Caton—

At least Salaam says "the Wahhabists and the ultraconservatives have taken the language of religion and turned it into a language of hatred and separation." As far as I am concerned it is possible to open a dialogue with anyone who will concede that much.

Much of what Salaam says is consistent with the positions of moderate American Islamic groups, like the ISCA and the ISNA. The more traditional Islamic groups like CAIR and AMC say that the ISCA is outside of Islam. Is it really productive to side with CAIR on this one?

#96 Ben F

At least Salaam says "the Wahhabists and the ultraconservatives have taken the language of religion and turned it into a language of hatred and separation." As far as I am concerned it is possible to open a dialogue with anyone who will concede that much.

You can try if you have time to lose. There's no dialogue possible there, though: the rot is in the Qu'ran and the Hadith themselves, not in the interpretation.

Much of what Salaam says is consistent with the positions of moderate American Islamic groups, like the ISCA and the ISNA. The more traditional Islamic groups like CAIR and AMC say that the ISCA is outside of Islam. Is it really productive to side with CAIR on this one?

Ah. I see your point. We have the totally rotten, the mostly rotten, and the half-rotten, so shouldn't we take the half-rotten lie that they not rotten at face value, as this will piss off the totally rotten and the mostly rotten.

Well, I don't have an answer for that. My opinion is that if you don't cut off the half that is rotten, the other half will rot. But that's only an opinion.

salam.....you say...

I strongly believe that in many ways the USA represents the best qualities of Islam: religious freedom, gender equality, respect for all social levels and economic strata, assistance to the needy and infirm.

well, actually, the USA is the manifestation of the Judeo-Christian tradition and culture...

Saudi, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Afganistan, Algeria, Morocco, Egypt represent what an islamic society and culture is, and the stronger the islmaic religion, the more disgusting and bestial it is.

Just like Islam claims all the Prophets and Traditions of Judiasm and Christianity, while denigrating both...

So you, peversely claim, OUR JUDEO-CHRISTIAN AMERICAN SOCIETY as representing Islam

honey, you have a big problem.

caton.....regarding

We have the totally rotten, the mostly rotten, and the half-rotten, so shouldn't we take the half-rotten lie that they not rotten at face value, as this will piss off the totally rotten and the mostly rotten.

what we have in Slalam, is the initial phase of the (jihad) struggle

"In endeavoring for the establishment of the ascendancy of Islam over all other systems of life, members of the Islamic movement will have to go through the following stages:

Passive Resistance, enduring all verbal and physical persecution without retaliation;

Active Resistance, challenging the un-Islamic system when there is enough strength available to do so;

and finally, the Armed Conflict (or a non-violent and disciplined popular movement) "

.....its all part of the islamic plan.....

vomit

#99 ploome

Yep. The half-rotten coming in and attempting to rot the unrotten half. I fully agree.

and the chutzpa, of this shit Salam, to suggest there is

religious freedom

in islam is an obscene distortion,

only muslims can delude themselves into thinking dhimmis, have freedom of religion....

and gender equality..?

feh....

assistance to the poor and needy..? well islam CREATES poor and needy....an educated population would not tolerate islam....so keep them in the madrasa, memorizing the koran, and kill anyone who doubts or disbelieves...

then, when all these people are dead or slaves of islam, islam has what it understands as 'peace'....

and the 'elites' can fell magnanimous by giving the pathetic people crumbs from their golden toilets...

every muslim head of state lives in a palace...or 3 or 4 palaces...

there is about 30% unemployment in every arab state..

87 - thanks for the link.

The problem with the Mubarak statement, as i see it, is that while it calls for an end to support to illegal terrorist groups, it does NOT mention Hamas and IJ by name. NOt clear to me that egypt and Saudi consider Hamas illegal. Its one thing to give Abu mazen an out on taking Hamas on directly now - its quite another for Egypt and Saudi to waffle on support for Hamas.

I would tend to agree, therefore, that Bush was betrayed by Mubarak and Crown prince Abdullah. And these are folks over whom we have considerable leverage. If the admin is serious about this peace process they will have to be serious about applying leverage on Egypt and Saudi to make it work. That will NOT be comfortable for the State dept, and maybe not comfortable for Dubya. But without it Egypt and Saudi can strengthen Arafat, and even Hamas, sufficiently to torpedo the whole process.

salaam #89,

I strongly believe that in many ways the USA represents the best qualities of Islam: religious freedom, gender equality, respect for all social levels and economic strata, assistance to the needy and infirm.

If these are the best qualities of Islam:

* Why are there no churches in Islamic countries (e.g. the Saudi entity)?
* Why are women not allowed to leave their homes in Islamic countries (e.g. any of the Islamic countries)?
* Why do Islamic countries (e.g. Taliban Afghanistan) export opium to the West?

#103 liberalhawk

The problem with the Mubarak statement, as i see it, is that while it calls for an end to support to illegal terrorist groups, it does NOT mention Hamas and IJ by name.

Please enlighten me -- what is a LEGAL terrorist group?

By adding that word, Mubarak has effectively voided the whole "statement".