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Notice how there are always children at these Palestinian freak shows, watching the masked gunmen with admiration.
The Associated Press refers to the Islamic terrorists pictured above as “militants,” of course—and the terrorist killed in yesterday’s missile attack as a “colleague.”
Hamas militants march during the funeral processions of their colleague Yasser Taha...
Merriam Webster defines “colleague” as:
An associate in a profession or in a civil or ecclesiastical office.
Sure, AP. That fits.
Disgraceful.
UPDATE: and here’s another photo of Palestinians manhandling the corpse of an infant, after putting a Hamas headband on it. Sick, sick, sick.
replies: 132 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted.
Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
Do you suppose that if the Israeli sent out a general warning to the effect that children in these parades is not smart that their mothers might get the idea and keep them home? I don't care how they're being raised, I just hate to see kids that young hurt.
RenegadeTalib Junior Member Brother Registered: May
2003 Location: Posts: 10 Look if any muslims in America seriously want revenge, join AlQaeda or something. Think about it, you speak english well, u got citizen ship and u know the culture. You could probably schmoose your way into a 747 and...
Does anyone else find it both disturbing and hilarious that Muslim terrorist wannabes are using Yiddishisms?
I won't tell you what I think of parading a dead baby around for the cameraman. But I do hope someone shows up and just tries to tell us how this is OK in any way, shape or form.
Jobs are scarce. The unfortunate reality is that the Palestinians became dependent on Israel for work (and the opposite is true). Once the Palestinians began entering Israel and blowing up Israelis Israel had no choice but to stop the flow of Palestinian workers into their country. At the beginning of the Intifadeh, for example, a Palestinian who workd as a bus driver in Israel deliberately mowed down a crowd at a bus stop killing several and wounding many more. As a result of this security problem many Palestinians really do have nothing to do but hang around all day growing ever more poor. The Palestinian Authority did not create jobs for their people with the hundreds of millions of dollars in international aid they've received.
Of course. Do you remember when Israel tried to dismantle refugee camps by building real housing for the Palestinians? The UN condemned the Israeli aggression.
Palestinians must remain refugees or else the proxy war against Israel won't work.
#11 RightIsRight
Does anyone over there have a job?
Probably not. Since they started this stupifada unemployment in the disputed territories is up to about 60 or 70% last I heard. But this is a people who would much rather suckle on the UNWRA teat and live in refugee camps than actually get off their asses, stop the terror and rebuild their infrastructure. The argument that Israel keeps wrecking the "Palestinian" infrastructure holds no water with me as Israel would not wreck their infrastructure if the "Pals" would stop killing Jews. But 80% of the "Pals" still support the stupifada and homicide bombing, so they shouldn't expect their lot in life to improve anytime soon.
Why do the Palestinians complain about their civilians casualities when they don't consider the unarmed Israeli elderly, women, and children civilians? This is hypocrisy at it's highest.
Also, did anyone catch the rep from Americans Muslims for Jerusalem on Fox & Friends this morning? He got off pretty easy and spouted the usual crap about how the Israelis started it and how Hamas agreed to a ceasefire (bs!). I do like how Fox always calls Hamas a terrorist group and calls the terrorist bombers homicide bombings.
Assuming that, in general, the a sizeable portion of the Palestinians want to kill all Jews;
Assuming that terrorist groups like Hamas will thwart any peace plan;
Assuming that Palestinians have no intention to let Jews live in peace in any Jewish settlements within Palestinian controlled areas;
Assuming (therefore) that there can be no "roadmap" that will both please a sufficient majority of Palestinians and be acceptable to Israel; then
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
I mean, I understand the arguments in favor of permitting Jewish settlers to live in their homes, but is there another solution that doesn't include 100 more years of terrorist attacks against innocent Israeli civilians? There seems to be no other answer that seems to provide long-term safety to Israelis.
I am thinking that Vadim composes his photos like so, "Ok, now pull the cover back a bit so we can see the baby's face. Ok, everyone ready? All together now, Allahu Akbar!"
#28 iagofest "This is hypocrisy at its highest." Being hypocrites is the least of their problems. It's part of the pervading collective psychosis of the Palis. The Palis complain about their civilian casualites because it's good PR for their cause. This culture of death only values life insofar as it serves them. They don't really care how many of their own are killed because they can sell the world on the idea that they were innocent martyrs and the western press always obliges. Even on Fox News you see more of the Palis weeping and wailing over a child killed accidentally when the Israelis targeted a known terrorist, than you see of the death and destruction and weeping over the dead Israelis. To me, every tear a Pali sheds is a crocodile tear. I think these people are beyond compassion and caring. They live to hate and seethe and kill.
I don't understand how any mother could let her child get within a mile of these gatherings. It just goes against all natural maternal instincts to nurture and protect the young. Monkey mothers have better sense!
I don't know about anybody else but I'm already anticipating the rapid foot shuffling hypocrisy of the left in the years after Palestinian statehood is achieved via the "roadmap".
"Look at what they've (Bush & friends) created", they'll say. "You've legitimized another terrorist state! This is the fault of the Republicans and conservatives!" NOT IN OUR NAME! We don't support these murderers.
Yeah? Tell that to your liberal do-gooder friend and martyr for the cause Rachel Corrie.
Look at the above photo of Hamas and listen to what Sec. Powell said this morning:
United States efforts are focused on persuading Hamas and other militant organizations to abandon terrorism.
Persuade?
As in "we are focused on persuading vultures to become vegetarians"?
But Ari Fleischer said:
The issue is Hamas. The terrorists are Hamas. It is not as if a phone call will get Hamas to stop being terrorists.
On one such phone call, an Arab diplomat told Powell they were close to an agreement to stop the suicide bombings, until Israel launched a disproportionate attack.
A disproportionate attack to a bus bombing that kills 17 civilians is not less than 17.
But Powell says both sides are committed to peace. Both sides? By his own disclaimers, "Prime Minister" Abbas is not even a party to the conflict.
what are referred to as "israeli settlements" typically are quite similar to what us yanks would call a new suburban subdivision; modern homes and townhouses, not to mention an infrastructure like running, somewhat purified water, electricity, etc. its not like a bunch of shacks you can just kick over. the "settlers" have invested alot of money in where they are. a little off on a tangent, but i think its another example of the subtle media bias (i.e. "4 israeli troops killed, palestinian boy killed". no mention that the israeli troops were 18-19 year olds fresh outta high school, sometimes young women. no mention that the boy was being used as a human shield by some repugnant swine)
The second picture is the one that's truly disturbing.
Assuming that the guy's kid was really killed by the IDF strike, and assuming that the body is really in the wrappings, this is the same thing as the "give the man a hand" picture from yesterday [the thread of which is still goinng in the 550s now].
I'd be crying and wailing too if it was my kid.. Normal human reaction. Fine. Sad, tragic, and all that. But holding the baby's corpse aloft and parading down the street with it!?!?! WTF?
Turning you kid's funeral into a political rally is sick, twisted, and . . . like ghoulish Democrats [ http://www.time.com/... ] (sorry had to throw that in)
Americans are rightly appaled when death is turned into a political stage, but that is what the Palis do EVERY time. From pulling out charred remians with bare hads minutes after it cools enough, to fake funerals where the "dead" miraculously rise again, the Palis have politicized death entirely.
In truth, it makes me shudder to see the same thing happen in the black community from time to time [ Kendra James' funeral here was a political tool (closest link) http://www.oregonliv... ]
Death does not make good politics. Emotions are high, people are easily demagogued into rash and ill-considered actions. Or over time, they arre indocrinated into a culture that praises death and rejects life. The Palis are corrupted in such a way.
Just imagine, holding your kid's CORPSE above your head and marching down the street.
Looking at CAIR's web site today, I saw a link to a news story with the alarming title "Local Muslims Say Recent Anti-Muslim Incidents Raise Concerns in Frederick", a city in Maryland. CAIR linked to the original story in the Frederick Gazette. Amongst the concerning incidents? "... a Frederick woman wearing a headscarf was made to wait for a lengthy amount of time in a doctor's office."
The best way to exterminate vermin is to go after the babies first.
I read somewhere that the Romans tried to kill all the boys. Didn't the Egyptians try that once too? What was the result of that? Weren't the oppressed made stronger?
(my facts may be off a little, but I think I made my point)
Unfortunately, there is a baby in there. See link in #30 above. Photo taken by the same AP propagandist as the hand photo from yesterday.
BTW, I agree with everything you said. No civilized person parades down the street with a dead body in such a way. It is for propaganda purposes, and to glorify their own death-cult culture.
Heard an ABC news report on the radio the other day about the recent bombings - the ABC news lady always referred to the Hamas murderers as "Hamas activists."
I thought it was a glorious and happy thing when their children exploded, to hear it explained by Jordyptians.
All Sharon has to do is make the announcement that those who want peace are to stay away from Hamas terrorists, who are targets. Parents with a shred of humanity will not put their kids out on potential battlefields.
Start taking out these klansmen, then keep taking out these klansmen. They will back off, and others won't want them around. The sooner this is done, the sooner the war ends.
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
The flaw in your logic is in assuming that the West Bank and Gaza are the issue. They are not. The existence of Israel is the issue. Her extermination is the raison d'etre (please excuse the CESM jargon, folks!) of Hamas - indeed, it is the impetus for the creation of the PLO and the it-is-to-be-hoped-stillborn Palestinian state itself. To deny this is to deny history.
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
If the current anti-Israel, leftist argument is correct, there would be no reason to "seal the borders" if they'd just abandon the "settlements", since the "settlements" are the reason for all this, remember? But they aren't really, are they? Hamas is different from Arafat's Fatah (Conquest) only in that they are unafraid of stating up front what they want: no Jew left alive between the River and the Sea.
#10 Geepers,
These criminals have declared war, I say anyone wearing a mask in the "occupied territories" should be shot on sight. They want to be "martyrs", then by all maens help them out.
The Israelis should import several thousands of those sadistic cannibals from the Congo's Bunia province and send them into Gaza. In terms of human depravity, a HAMAS/Congo cannibals matchup would be like an Ali/Frazier fight.
Why do young boys follow and admire armed Pal fighters?
Because they are young boys.
Simply a natural, widespread human phenomenon.
Other news: From Asia Times
Israel is providing India with high tech assistance in building a superduper border fence along the Kashmir Line of Control, with aditional help with sensors and thermal imaging equipment for soldiers. The goal is to prevent infiltrattion.
Why can't Israel do the same for it's own West Bank infiltration problem? They can't. The Settlements come first! At least, for the West Bank..putting a fence up is well neigh impossible due to the pepperoni pizza nature of the zionist colonies within the West Bank, unless the fence is built with them on the wrong side.
Gaza did have a fence built that seems to be working albeit with security imperfections..tunnelers have to be rooted out...Hamas chucking rockets/mortars over the fence.
I don't think Pathos should be criticized for asking this question.
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
The status quo is untenable and Pathos is asking if complete disengagement isn't the only workable course of action.
There are problems with this.
One problem is that ultimately the world will not allow Israel to become disengaged. The fact is that the Palestinians are in no way prepared for sovereignty. They have no idea how to produce their own electricity and water and they have no idea how to create an economy in land without any natural resources. To the extent that they would have to rely on international welfare, since their plight will always be blamed on the Israelis ("if not for 36+ years of occupation they'd be doing great...") Israel will be forced to remain "engaged" with them economically and commerically. This means, of course, that Israel will NOT be totally separated from the Palestinians and the security concern will be exactly as it is now.
I watched The Pianist the other day. I've seen a lot of Nazi/holocaust movies in my time. But I had to fast forward through this one. In the middle of the film I started getting angry. I was getting angry at the Jews. What I was witnessing in the film was millions of European Jews praying that the crocodile wouldn't eat them. As we all know, the European crocodile ate up about 6 million Jews. It seems to me that there are a lot of morons who are hoping that a "political solution" through "meaningful dialogue" and "mutual respect" can be achieved with Hamas and other Fiends.
When Hamas starts targeting Jewish children enmasse and succeed (and that day will come, my friends) then maybe we won't be having a discussion whether we should bomb Hamas rallies because of the presence of Palestinean children. During war, children die. The question is: whose children are going to die? Theirs or ours? I choose my children to live.
Sounds rough, huh? That's why it's called war. Are we at war with the crocodile or are we just hoping that the crocodile will stop eating us, one at a time?
Any moron who responds with "then we'll be just like them..." Spare me. I've heard that hallow argument already.
#14 leo: It's not like they're effective at anything. Just read what is going on in the Congo. One wonders what Cofi Annan is thinking about -- what reality he's living in.
leo(#14): Now I just don't get it. Isn't there a little set-to going on in this place called the Congo? And doesn't it involve some pretty horrible atrocities? Now you would think Kofi might have his time so taken up sending people to that place and making sure it's safe and secure he couldn't possibly have time for anything else, wouldn't you?
/heavy sarcasm, and thanks for that article.
hobgoblin(#38):
the Palis have politicized death entirely.
I wish it were so simple! But after seeing the self-inflicted slashings, the chains, the excellent Daniel Pipes article that someone linked to on the Khomeni funeral thread, you know what I'm starting to think?
Since I can remember reading or hearing anything about Islam, one thing that always stood out was that it is always portrayed as having no sacraments or ordinances.
#29 Pathos: There is a long answer to your question, but I don't have time right now. Instead, let me tell you about a conversation that I recently had with my cousin in Israel (about a year ago). We were talking about the terrorist attacks and I said something like "well, those are in the settlements, not where you are." She replied: "Jhenya, where do you think we live? We are in a settlement."
Well, this took me back. I had been to my cousin's home. I stayed there for a week and it was a modern apartment in a modern complex. It never even occurred to me that I was in a "settlement." There were restaurants and photo shops and grocery stores and all of the things that you would find in any normal, established comunity. It was maybe 10 to 15 minutes from downtown Jerusalem by car. The people who lived there were not predominantly right wing fanatics or religious zealots by any stretch if the imagination. All in all, a very ordinary, very western, very modern neighborhod.
People have the wrong idea when they talk about "settlements" just as they have the wrong idea when they talk about "refugee camps" that the "Palestinians" live in.
I talk to my cousin more regularly these days. I always try to call after a bombing (she was 5 meters from the last one but was "lucky" and escaped unharmed (physically)).
Why must Judea be Jew-free (ie. free of Jewish settlements)? Do you think that would bring peace?
It is curious how the Palestinians demand that the Jews leave Judea/Samaria ("West Bank") as a prerequisite to the creation of a "Palestinian" state, yet at the same time they also demand a "right of return" to Israel to go live where the Jews are.
How dare you mock our blight? De Balesteeenian beeble have suffered enough from de Israeeelee occubation! All we want is beeese! Beese afder beese of Israeeeel, de Zioneest occubiars!
The armed wing of the Palestinian Islamic group Hamas warned of an "earthquake" of revenge attacks for Israel's helicopter raid on Tuesday against the group's political chief.
I guess Allah is either too busy, gets confused on who to put the earthquake on (Algeria), or maybe he dead set against it. Hamas takes it into their own hands.
Page after page of pseudo-Koranic bullshit. This, however, is absolutely hilarious:
The Zionist... does not refrain from resorting to all methods, using all evil and contemptible ways to achieve its end. It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions.
The Freemasons? The Rotary Club??? Hamas is a "charter" member of the Tin Foil Hat Brigade. As so eloquently stated by our Fearless Lizardoid Leader:
Israeli officials and media said Friday, that Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has ordered the army to "completely wipe out" Hamas. At a meeting of his cabinet Thursday, Mr. Sharon is reported to have said that Israel must strike hard against the terrorists because Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas is, in Mr. Sharon's words, "like a chick who hasn't grown his feathers yet" in terms of dealing with the militants.
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
Aside from the fact that the settlements are only a portion of the problem, I'd have to answer YES.
Since the West Bank and Gaza were ceded to Israel after the 1967 war, expelling all calling for a "Palestinian" state and sealing the borders would work, at least for me. Many of the West Bank refusegees are/were Jordanian. Fine! Jordan is that way
----------->
Many Arab refusegees in Gaza are/were Egyptian. Fine! Egypt is that way
I doubt that the 'kid' being displayed is real. More likely its an effigy for one they claim was killed.
I agree. He looked awfully small for a three year old. Then again his growth might have been stunted because he was malnourished. There is an epidemic of that in area controlled by the Palestinian Authority.
You weel see! De earth weel shake weeth our angarr! I am talling you now, and avarrybody know this ees true because I am never lying because I am Muslim yes? that everywhere will not be safe from our angarr! De Israeeel has halicoptar and bomb and Amrikiyah gun and we have nothing! Nothing! We have only our bodies and our Islehm and our stupid, yes? We are killing de occubation with our childdrren and so the whole world can see our crazy! Dey are killing hundreds of....thousands....millions, yes, millions of us!
Allahu ackbar! We weel take de bloody bieces of de bodies of our shaheed and beat de Israeeel with de bleeding end because we are enlightened beeble! Yes! We invented everything! Everything from de Qur'an and de Jewish stole from us!
As a corollary to MC's post, here's a little ditty about Hamas' parent - the Muslim Brotherhood, founded in part by Haj Amin Al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem through WWII. Husseini collaborated with Hitler and Eichmann, and actively participated in raising Moslem regiments in Eastern Europe and the ME to fight against the US and Allies alongside the Axis powers. He was the only major war criminal never tried by the Allies, due to the sanctuary given him after the defeat of Germany by Egypt and the Saudis.
Oh, and by the way, guess who his great-nephew is? (Hint: Egyptian terrorist with ichthyoid features.)
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
No, because the pre-1967 borders are basically indefensible. IIRC, there's only nine miles between the border of the West Bank and the sea. Plus, missiles can still be fired over the border from the West Bank, no matter how secure the Israelis make their wall.
#56 Montaigne's Cat:
Article 13 of the Charter says it all: peace talks, etc. are a "waste of time." Delenda est HAMAS.
#84 - yes the wrapped child's corpse looked quite small for a 3 year old, but the caption on with the picture with the face exposed (which sadly looked quite real) said she was only 2.
Some responded by pointing out problems with my "solution" but did not suggest a better one. Others responded that the better solution is to annex to territories and expel all those who didn't accept it.
#33
yeah, israel could sieze by force this land, and assimilate it into greater israel
#37
It is the absolute elimination and defeat of those who are comitted to make war & terror.
#45
Transfer. Muslims in the Gaza to their rightful country - Egypt; Muslims in the West Bank to their rightful country - Jordan.
#81
Since the West Bank and Gaza were ceded to Israel after the 1967 war, expelling all calling for a "Palestinian" state and sealing the borders would work, at least for me.
I am assuming that most Palestinians will not accept living side by side in peace and harmony with Jews.
So, is it not unrealistic to assume that the forced relocation of millions of armed militants who, assumedly, wouldn't take the annexation sitting down, will lead to huge numbers of Israeli civilian casualties (through terror homocide bombings and armed attacks)?
The settlements may be full-fledged suburbs comparable to Great Neck, NY, but if Israel withdrew, wouldn't there be fewer Jewish deaths than if they annexed the land and forcefully expelled any Palestinians (read: most) who did not agree?
#62, someguy, correct, human sacrifice is their sacrament. They are told if they die helping their religion, they will be praised in heaven. Add that to the death practices of the religions pre-dating Islam that became a part of the practice, and basically the view human sacrifice as a holy event.
As for the question of what Israel can do about the "Palestinian" situation. The only idea that I can come up with that ends without many terrorists and safety for Israel goes like this:
Annex the Gaza Strip. This is needed for safety from smuggling and movement of weapons from Egypt. What to do with the people will be addressed in a moment.
Annex about 35 miles into the West Bank. Put the rest of the West Bank under full Israeli control. Annex the land to give Jerusalem and the river more of a buffer zone.
Surrond Arafat's Ramallah compound. Give them 2 hours to leave and be arrested to stand trial. After two hours, burn down the compound, anyone found leaving is arrested, anyone that resists is killed on sight. Dissolve the PA and make being a member of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Fatah, PLO, Tarzim, Al Asqa Brigade et al a criminal offense punishable by 20 years in prison, simply for being involved. Any other crimes commented while being a member is added on to the sentence. Death penalty for the leaders.
As for the people, you give them options. Anyone that isn't an Israeli citizen has the ability to do one of a few things:
1) They can leave to any country bording Israel. The government will help them move.
2) They can stay in their homes, but they become as a "conquered people." They have no right to vote, but are basically treated like Israeli citizens at that point. If they want to become full Israeli citizens, they can apply for the normal procedure in 7 years time.
Children born within the next 5 years to anyone that takes option 2 are still under the "conquered people" status. Children born after the 5 year period can become full Israeli citizens after they complete 2 years with the IDF. Any child born to people that become Israeli citizens is an Israeli citizen. Any from the group that marries an Israeli is not an Israeli citizen though. They still have to go through the process. Also, any in the process of becoming Israeli citizens prior to the change in control are not affected.
I need to get going, but basically the rest is you redo all schooling and deny any ability for anyone to return. They can become Israeli citizens in the future, but they have a choice to make.
"The settlements may be full-fledged suburbs comparable to Great Neck, NY, but if Israel withdrew, wouldn't there be fewer Jewish deaths than if they annexed the land and forcefully expelled any Palestinians (read: most) who did not agree?"
I doubt it. Unless you're implying that the settlements are the provocation that causes suicide bombings in Israel proper.
I do not think there's evidence to support that assertion since Hamas's charter, and indeed the PLO's charter call for the destruction of Israel in its 1967 borders.
There are numerous cases in recent history of population transfers that ultimately resulted in a cooling down of a hot conflict.
As I pointed out, real disengagement from the Palestinians will be impossible so long as they are living right next to the Israelis.
Since it is a fact that if a democratic election were held in Jordan it would instantly become a Palestinian country (70% of its population is Palestinian) there is no doubt that the Palestinians can be absorbed into Jordan.
In any case, not having a better solution does not automatically make your solution workable.
Another reservation I had about pulling out in the way you suggest is that it would almost certainly be interpreted as Israeli surrender and a sign of weakness and the conflict will only grow hotter.
Who ever assumed that Kofi can think? There's news that the militants in Bunia are running after the French 'troops' yelling, 'the white men will run from us'.
The freshly arrived UN troops have orders to do nothing but stare at the renegades from inside their compound.
So, why are they even there? And that's just the way the UN and the rest of the crazy world would like for it to be in the ME. They want the Jews to be like docile sheep, line up for the killing fields. Then the rest of the world can make their sorrowful and remorseful movies again about what happened. They are insisting that the arabs finish what Hitler started. This world grows more evil and sick by the minute.
"The settlements may be full-fledged suburbs comparable to Great Neck, NY, but if Israel withdrew, wouldn't there be fewer Jewish deaths than if they annexed the land and forcefully expelled any Palestinians (read: most) who did not agree?"
And if the Jews left Israel altogether for, say, Brooklyn (as many (not here) have suggested), there would be fewer Jewish deaths still. And if things got hot in Brooklyn, there is always Staten Island, or Cleveland (NOT Detroit) or Wyoming or perhaps Antarctica. If there is a people who could make it bloom, it's the Jews. In fact, Israel should invest more in its space program to stay one step ahead.
No, giving up the settlements unilaterally will not lead to fewer deaths. The settlements are a pretext and have always been a pretext to driving the Jews out of the Middle East. Giving up the settlements will give the Islamists good staging grounds from which to attack a far less secure Israel. It will lead to many, many more deaths (on both sides).
What should Israel do? My suggestion hasn't changed in years. Israel should unilaterally declare its national borders. Abandon what is indefensible and build a strong wall around the rest. Bring its own citizens within the borders and kick out every non-citizen who happens to be within the borders. then forget about the Palestinians except for keeping them out. If they want to declare a country on whatever land remains, fine, declare away. obviously, there are many more details, but those are the broad strokes. It needs to be done.
The settlements may be full-fledged suburbs comparable to Great Neck, NY, but if Israel withdrew, wouldn't there be fewer Jewish deaths than if they annexed the land and forcefully expelled any Palestinians (read: most) who did not agree?
Did the Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon stop attacks across that border? Did the palestinians look at that withdrawal, draw some conclusions, and begin the intifada? When was the PLO founded?
The settlements are a red herring. And a great one - in English, you think of settlements like Gush Etzion or Kiryat Arba, while the Arabs know that they are talking about settlements such as Tel Aviv. I suppose that getting rid of all settlements (inc Tel Aviv) would result in peace, the peace of the grave.
I am assuming that most Palestinians will not accept living side by side in peace and harmony with Jews.
First, unless you're talking about the region, the term Palestinian is fraudulent. There is no, nor has there ever been, a country of Palestine. Second, it is readily apparent after the past 2+ years especially that the Arab refugees have no interest in peaceful cohabitation in the area.
So, is it not unrealistic to assume that the forced relocation of millions of armed militants who, assumedly, wouldn't take the annexation sitting down, will lead to huge numbers of Israeli civilian casualties (through terror homocide bombings and armed attacks)?
Is this not happening now with Israeli civilians. A war of attrition is one Israel cannot win. They stand a better chance if they force the issue.
The settlements may be full-fledged suburbs comparable to Great Neck, NY, but if Israel withdrew, wouldn't there be fewer Jewish deaths than if they annexed the land and forcefully expelled any Palestinians (read: most) who did not agree?
No because in the minds of terrorist organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the entire region, ALL of Israel, is occupied land and must be freed of ALL Jews. Although Ranbutan would disagree, changing the borders back to pre-1967 ones would matter very little and make Israel more vulnerable.
Where's the follow-up? Your post #92 has been replied to by four separate posters, each giving you a civil and thought out response. If you're going to solicit comments, basic civility dictates that you acknowledge and respond to the comments that you receive.
Occupation...Occupation...Occupation!! This is the mantra of the anti-Israel crowd, the terrorists, Islamofascists, and their Western Apologists. If, God forbid, Israel is pressured into essentially rewarding terror, and the PLO gets its terror state, this new "state" will become a launching pad for further attacks and genocidal butchery. It's all part of the Phased Plan that the PLO openly advocates. And what will be the new mantra?, since the "occupation" is no more? Simple: THE LEGACY OF OCCUPATION!!! (from a piece in Arutz Sheva)
Stanley Cohen, the posterchild for the self-hating Jew, is going on Hannity's radio show soon today. Try not to smash your radios when you hear this Kike spew Hamas' venom. This bastard is, in my opinion, more dangerous than Arafat.
Follow up (sometimes the day job gets in the way of immediate postings):
The concept of what land people are "entitled" to is obviously very fuzzy. Hamas thinks that Jews are not entitled to pre-1967 Israel. That, obviously, is an untenable position.
But, similarly, most of the world, and most of the residents of the "occupied territories" (Arabs, whether or not there is such a thing as "Palestinians") don't want to be part of Israel. If Israel is entitled to kick out all (or most) of the Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza, having taken that land from Egypt and Jordan during war, then there seems to be an equally valid contrary position that if the Arab nations get strong enough to take over Israel, they are entitled to kick out all the Jews.
Now, putting aside the fact that if the Arabs were strong enough, they likely would attempt to do just that, I think we would all agree that the attempt to do so on their part would be wrong.
I just can't get past the fact that there are actual people living in these areas who do not want to be part of Israel. If 90% of the residents of Maine wanted to secede and either be its own country and become part of Canada, shouldn't the people living there have a right to do so? Why must they be part of America against their will?
Similarly, there are people who live there. Most of them hate Jews and don't want to be living in part of Israel. We can call them "bad" if we want, but that does not mean that they are not entitled to have their own bad little government there.
Hamas wants to drive Israel into the sea. I'm sure they'd settle, though, at least for the moment, for just driving them all to Brooklyn. It sounds like the majority here wants to forcibly drive the Arabs under Israeli control into Egypt and Jordan if they are not content under Israeli law.
What is the theory of International Law that permits Israel to expel the Arabs, but would permit American Jews to express righteous indignation when Iran or Egypt does the same and expels all its Jews?
#20 - yes there is a burned baby in that shroud.
As I didn't read the entire post, I'll post the link to the Yahoo slide show where it came from:
http://story.news.ya... It's slide #52 - warning! Very graphic.
Despite the fact that I feel sorry for children - any children - who die as a result of violence, I find the parading of this baby's charred body as nothing more than disgusting use of a corpse for media, propaganda, and incitement. That's why I consider the Palestinians savages. Because they exploit a baby's corpse, among other practices.
And, not only a baby, a baby bottle, and tiny shoes came out of the charred car, but also an assault rifle. I'm not blaming the victim, but questioning that mother's judgement. Show me anybody in a civilized society who knowingly carries around a baby together with an assault rifle, in a war zone. That is simply using your own family as human shields. That's why they are savages, again and again.
"What is the theory of International Law that permits Israel to expel the Arabs, but would permit American Jews to express righteous indignation when Iran or Egypt does the same and expels all its Jews? "
Answer: they started it and they've expressed no willingness to end it together with Israel.
pathos,
not talking about all the arabs. there are 1.5 million arabs that are citizens of israel (you know, the ones that didn't flee in 1948 at the bequest of the arabs). theres no talk of moving them anywhere....just the refugees. as near as i can tell, this problem came primarily when egypt and jordan respectively seized gaza and the west bank in 1948 while attacking israel, while at the same time not absorbing the inhabitants. prior to 67 when these lands remained under arab control, the indigineous people were still miserable and still belonged to no country. maybe i'm vastly wrong here. if i am, someone point it out with some citable facts.
If 90% of the residents of Maine wanted to secede and either be its own country and become part of Canada, shouldn't the people living there have a right to do so? Why must they be part of America against their will?
How about because that question was answered in 1865. In case you did not know, in 1861-65, the people of Maine, along with the rest of the USA forced the people of Virgina, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georga, Mississippi, Alabama, Lousiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Texas to remain part of America against their will.
But I have no idea why you think this has anything to do with Israel. It isn't that the Palestinians don't want to be a part of Israel, they don't want Israel to be a part of Palestine. IOW, they don't want Israel to exist at all.
"They" is a pretty open term. Granted, the Arab governments started the war, not the Israelis, but I'm pretty sure that the actual people living in the areas were not decision makers. (Perhaps many supported the decision, but that's not the same thing.) The Arab countries aren't even democracies, so it's hard to pin the actions of their leaders on their "citizens".
"no willingness to end it" is also pretty open to interpretation. Assume Arafat had said "yes" to the final offer before the Oslo accords broke down. Some of his negotiators seem to have wanted to accept it. That would have resulted in a Palestinian "country" of some sort. So there is at least SOME willingness to end it in a way that doesn't cede all occupied land to Israel.
#107
I was assuming that Arabs willing to live in Israel would be allowed to stay. I was also assuming that among those Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, the number would be small.
#108
The Civil War was about slavery, which is worth fighting for. America is free, and its citizens aren't, by and large, fanatics, so no one would want to leave now. But, if Montreal had voted to leave Canada, there's no reason it shouldn't have been allowed to. Same with Maine. Virginia in the 1860s is not necessarily to best precedent to apply for all time.
Why must Judea be Jew-free (ie. free of Jewish settlements)? Do you think that would bring peace?
It is curious how the Palestinians demand that the Jews leave Judea/Samaria ("West Bank") as a prerequisite to the creation of a "Palestinian" state, yet at the same time they also demand a "right of return" to Israel to go live where the Jews are?
Would you accept a tradeoff then? Freedom of any Jew wanting to immigrate to Israel then on to the West Bank Settlements as part of their Israeli Constitutional Right of Return...with a quid pro quo of any exiled Palestinian to live in Settlements inside Israel proper as part of their desired Right of Return?
Uh...of course you wouldn't.There are good re-Settlements (us Jews reclaiming all of Zion!) vs. bad, unacceptable Settlements (any additional Arab setting foot in our Jewish State).
Why must Judea be Jew-free?
No real reason, other than crushing people under a long occupation and lebensraum colonization tends to piss those people off. At the end of WWII, the Germans who had lived for a long time or settled in the traditional German Ostlands were no longer welcome by the Slav majority who had owned the lands the past 1400 years. I suppose the Slavs could have been more magnanimous, but no one was surprised when they weren't.
Assuming that no Palestinian Arabs return to Israel under their present demand of return, there are still enough Arabs in Israel proper, who have a much higher birthrate than Jews, or at least than Orthodox Jews.
Eventually, I don't see how Israel will not become another Arab country as soon as these Israeli Arabs become so populous as to overwhelm the Jews by sheer numbers and votes. I'm not sure Israel can increase its Jewish population fast enough, even with immigration from Africa and India where there are seemingly "lost" Jewish tribes.
"Uh...of course you wouldn't.There are good re-Settlements (us Jews reclaiming all of Zion!) vs. bad, unacceptable Settlements (any additional Arab setting foot in our Jewish State). "
Alright, you know thats crap. There are a million Arabs in Israel.
CastorOil,
Israel plans on remaining a democratic Jewish state, however just as our American constitution isn't a suicide pact in the words of a Supreme Court jurist, Israel's form of government will not be a suicide pact either. No people will allow its country to be voted out of existence. One possible solution is to adopt a constitution with an irrevocable provision that Israel remains a Jewish state. This needs to be developed more, but make no mistake. Israel is no more about to allow itself to naturally morph into East Palestine than France is actually going to allow itself to be voted into Sharia.
HAMAS is one of the most influential terrorist groups around Israel. It is important that you have this information now so that you understand how
and why Hamas is blocking the Road Map to peace.
HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
International Terrorist Organization
ENEMY OF PALESTINIAN-ISRAELI PEACE
The US called Hamas an international terrorist organization in 1995, 1996, and 2001.
“HAMAS is a militant offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood…a terrorist organization that espouses an extremist Islamic fundamentalist ideology, calling for the total destruction of the State of Israel. ”
www.ustreas.gov/pres...
Hamas’ founding covenant calls for jihad to “obliterate Israel” and to “raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine” and over “any land the Moslems conquered by force” in “the times of Islamic
conquests.”
(Preamble, and Article 11) See the Covenant at
www.mideastweb.org/h... )
Hamas militantly opposes all peace proposals that include a two-state solution and escalates its terrorist activity when peace negotiations make headway. Hamas denies the right of any Arab country or even of all the worlds kings and presidents to “give up even part of Palestine.”
(Article
11)
After the Oslo Accords, it escalated its terrorism, dispatching 41 suicide bombers against Israelis between 1993 and September 2000.
www.idf.il/english/a...)
Hamas terrorist threats and actions mounted during and after the Aqaba Summit. In the four weeks before and after the Summit, Israel caught 20 suicide terrorists. In the four days after the Summit, Hamas terrorists
claimed seven Israeli lives. Israel reported there were 53 active terrorist alerts on June 11, 2003—hours before the attempted assassination
of Rantisi. (www.israelnationalne...)
Hamas refused to accept the truce advocated by PA Prime Minister Abbas. “We call on all military cells to act immediately and act like an earthquake to blow up the Zionist entity and tear it to pieces.” Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, Hamas co-founder, June 12, 2003.
(http://news.independ...)
Neither Yassir Arafat nor Prime Minister Abbas tried to dismantle Hamas
Arafat “never took real steps to disrupt the militants’ command centers, shut down their bomb factories, or prosecute the leaders….
(www.ict.org.il/artic....)
PA Prime Minister Abbas tried to get Hamas to sign a truce, not to disarm. Hamas rejected the truce on Friday, June 6, two days after the Aqaba Summit and five days before Israel attempted to assassinate Rantisi.
(http://news.yahoo.co... stinians
Hamas Called for Jihad against the West in the US War Against Iraq.
“Jihad will be the personal obligation of every Muslim man and woman, and there will be no alternative to Muslims threatening the interests of the hostile Americans and Westerners and striking at them everywhere.”
Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmad Yassin Feb 8, 2003 at
(http://memri.org/bin...)
Hamas gets its funding from international sources, much of it through Hamas’ charity organizations. Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria and the Gulf States contribute, as do Islamic organizations in the Middle East and the West. The Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development, in Texas, raised over $13 million in 2000, much of it for Hamas.
www.ict.org.il/inter... and
www.ustreas.gov/pres...)
Hamas welfare activities are closely tied to Hamas’ terror cells. The FBI reported that “frequently (workers) are current or former members of Hamas terror cells… Hamas is known to use its hospitals…as meeting places, to bury caches of arms and explosives under its own kindergarten playgrounds….” “Holy Land Foundation funds are used for schools that serve Hamas ends by encouraging children to become suicide bombers and to recruit suicide bombers by offering support to their families.”
(Nov. 2001 FBI Memorandum cited in Matthew Levitt, “Hamas Blood Money,”
at
www.ict.org.il/artic...) (US Office of Public Affairs Press Release, December 4, 2001
www.ustreas.gov/pres...)
The recent escalation in Hamas rhetoric and action was not caused by Israel’s effort to assassinate Rantisi.
Hamas’ violence and intransigence have been the hallmark of its activities since 1989. As the Aqaba Summit of June 4 2003 approached, Hamas rejected PA Prime Minister Abbas’ pleas for at least a temporary truce. Terrorist activities continued before, during and after the Summit.
Prime Minister Abbas did nothing after the murder of four Israeli soldiers on June 8 and appeared unable or unwilling to begin disarming militants or taking a firm hand against incitement. Attacks against Israel and
threats of terror attacks against Israel mounted.
Hamas’ Attitude Toward Jews: The “Jews “were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about…They were behind World War I and were able to destroy
the Islamic Caliphate…and they were behind World War II.” (Article 22)
“The Zionist plan is limitless….Their plan is embodied in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion…” (Article 32)
Question: Is there any better answer than giving up the settlements, pulling out of the West Bank and Gaza completely, and sealing all the borders?
Sadly, it would seem that where ever there is a free "palestinian" neighborhood, there is a terrorist base. I bet that both average "palestinians" would prefer to see the terrorists wiped out, so that as the land is freed, the terrorists won't just move in and ruin their lives, by killing Jooooooos from their house. Ya know? Remember when Israel rolled back into "palestinian" lands, after the stupifata started again? The IDF didn't occupy anything then. Not until after the "palis" made it known that they had no intention of controlling themselves, as long as any Jooooo should dare visit a suposed "muslim" holy place. Fucking peace loving primates.
Israel would still be right to do so. In fact, they may save some children's lives in the long run since, if they demonstrate the futility of using children as human shields, perhaps the "Palestinians" will stop using their cannon fodder, um, I mean children in this fashion. As it is, the Palestinians continue to do it because it works.
In any case, going after these gatherings is certainly the right thing to do for anyone who values the safety of Israeli children.
Time to tell the Jewish women in Israel to stop working & partying - and start breeding. Demography is destiny - and a single brainy loving life to it's fullest with no kid or male encumbrances, woman -is an evolutionary cul de sac.
Same as in Europe.
Abortions or deferred families are a bigger threat to the death of states, or the transformation of such states into Sharia thanks to the Muslim breeder women....than terrorism.
Or stop welfare services to Muslim brood mares after their 7th ...maybe 11th child.
Would you accept a tradeoff then? Freedom of any Jew wanting to immigrate to Israel then on to the West Bank Settlements as part of their Israeli Constitutional Right of Return...with a quid pro quo of any exiled Palestinian to live in Settlements inside Israel proper as part of their desired Right of Return?
Ah, but Israel does have "Palestinian" Arab citizens, more than a million of them, yet the Palestinians want all the Jews out of the new Palestinian Arab state-that-may-be.
That does not seem like a "tradeoff" to me, when only one side is actually making a concession, picking up and moving out. It is not as if Israel is demanding the deportation of Israeli Arabs as a condition of Palestinian statehood.
No real reason, other than crushing people under a long occupation and lebensraum colonization tends to piss those people off.
No doubt you use this same rationalization for the forced expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Jews from Arab lands throughout the Middle East.
Someone wrote earlier, nobody's talking about kicking out the Arabs who are within Israel.
Why not?
The Arabs kicked the Jews out of their countries, didn't they? Why shouldn't Israel be Arab-free?
I continue to say, build the fence, tell those outside the fence that they're taking their chances, and kick all the Arabs out. Turn the keys over to Abdullah and Mubarak, say, here you go, You deal with it. And also say, the first missile that comes over the fence will be met with blistering and total retaliation.
Indeed, what you say seems reasonable, only then they'll end up with a Jewish elite minority ruling over a majority of Arabs, and everybody will scream "South-Africa", "apartheid", which they are doing already.
On the other hand,
#119 Ranbutan,
Are you suggesting that Jewish women abandon careers and start breeding like rabbits? Or are you joking and I didn't get it? You seem to have figured out women's role in society as nothing more than childbearers. Then, we should allow men to have multiple wives - for efficiency's sake. The Taliban came to the same great realization, you know.
But, similarly, most of the world, and most of the residents of the "occupied territories" (Arabs, whether or not there is such a thing as "Palestinians") don't want to be part of Israel.
"Most of the world?" I didn't know that was on the roadmap.
What is the theory of International Law that permits Israel to expel the Arabs, but would permit American Jews to express righteous indignation when Iran or Egypt does the same and expels all its Jews?
One is conjecture and the other is an historical example of persecution. And the Jews of Iran and Egypt weren't blowing themselves up on buses.
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Only suggesting that for Israel and some Eurpean countries, demography has strategic implications.
If Palestinian Fatima al-Inhadin has 14 children and Israeli Naomi Cohen has zero because she wants her law career in Tel Aviv and her freedom to party anywhere on the planet as a reward for her hard work up until her 40's, when menopause beckons - she buys a single Chinese or African reject child, or Arab retarded adoption candidate as a sort of lifetime love pet....who inherits the future? Fatima, or Naomi?
I hesitate to point this out (and that Ihesitate should probably indicate how bad it really is), but the kids are, bluntly, a tactical weapon.
The Israelis can't snuff a "good" Jihadi without killing a kid, because the Paleonazis make sure that kids are always around the Jihadis.
Jihadi dies, so do kids. Guess which deaths the media [growl] emphasize.
It's a bit beyond using children as human shields. The Paleonazis realize that the IDF has been, quite deliberately, pushed beyond any concern other than the bare survival of Israel.
It sucks to kill kids, but watching your kids being massacred sucks worse.
That's the choice the splodydopes are forcing on the IDF. No wonder they finally decided to snuff Hamas.
Make no mistake, the Paleonazi cowards are hiding behind their own children, while trying to kill Israelis. As a practical matter, they might as well be holding their kid in front of their chest, while cranking rounds downrange at the IDF.
None of us wants to kill the kid.
Motherfucker using him as a hostage should be flayed. Barring that, he should at least be killed.
Seems like the IDF has finally come around to my position.
If Israel is entitled to kick out all (or most) of the Arab residents of the West Bank and Gaza, having taken that land from Egypt and Jordan during war, then there seems to be an equally valid contrary position that if the Arab nations get strong enough to take over Israel, they are entitled to kick out all the Jews.
If there was evidence that over 80% of the Jews were supportive of Jews exploding themselves on buses in Cairo and Amman, I would think the moral case would be very clear. The palestinians show that level of support.
If and when there is this type of bombing here in the U.S., we call the police or an ambulance - we DO NOT wade into the carnage to hoist body parts. (Do you recall anyone hoisting burnt and bloody body parts after 9-11 or Oklahoma City? Me either. That's precisely the point).
Hoisting burnt, bloody, body parts after this type of bombing is grotesque, inhumane, and, let's face it, unsanitary, dumb, and pointless. In short, it is the difference between a civilized and modern nation (the U.S. - and Israel) and a violent and backward third-world nation (or lack thereof ... the Palestinian Authority). I think this observation is pretty obvious. So LGF is right-on in identifying and condemning this kind of brutish, macabre tribalism.
It seems you are "reaching pretty hard" to join the liberal left in attacking LGF.
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There were 45 men in the jail cell, the toilet and shower had never been cleaned, the temperature was 110 degrees so you couldn't sleep night or day, there were roaches in the oatmeal, sadistic guards, and everything that was nice. -- Zappa 1969 interview. This had happened during the days of Studio Z in Cucamonga (1963). Frank was released on bail (his father took out a bank loan to pay for it). Frank had been busted for "conspiracy to commit pornography," after making a silly recording of suggestive sexual sounds (giggling edited out) for someone who had asked him to provide a "special" tape recording for a stag night. That someone turned out to be Detective Willis of the San Bernadino Vice Squad. Their conversation was recorded by a hidden microphone and this was used as evidence at Zappa's trial.
frank says:
