They are right about one thing. We have politicians who are idiots.

'DOESN'T HE KNOW THAT HAMAS EXISTS IN EVERY PALESTINIAN HOME?'

Thank you HASAN for making the targetting of ham-ass membership that much easier. The "kill them all and let G-D sort them out " crowd might be on to something here.

No, no, they're simply taking a cue from those of us who have referred to Hamas as pieces of human excrement. Fact of the matter is, that there's crap in every house, so therefore, Hamas can be right without negating Bush's deliberate misreading, errrm, heartfelt belief.

Apparently, Hamas also uses AOL as their primary ISP.

Either that, or the capslock key is stuck on their PaliKeyboard.

I posted this on the previous thread - reposting it here because this time it's relevant:

Debkafile on the Hamas hudna

A very depressing analysis. Sounds like the Bush people are so desperate for progress that they let the Egyptians sell them a bogus Hamas "cease-fire" that's really just a pause to reload, as a pretext for pressuring Israel to withdraw from northern Gaza and Bethlehem. The accord has a lot of weird aspects (including the fact that Hamas didn't want to be seen to agree to it - hence the confusing headlines Charles cited yesterday). A few months from now the IDF will be fighting its way back in.

It also turns out that Rantisi & Dahlan are long-time chums, with Dr Rantisi treating Dahlan's children ("Nurse! Please give little Abdul his vaccination while I filll this bomber belt with nails and shrapnel.").

I don't know about sending troops, but I certainly think we should sell some AC-130 gunships to Israel. And a never ending supply of anti-car missiles.

Lugar must have been on heavy medication when he threw that idea out there. Jesus.

OK,

Mein Kampf, mandatory reading for everyone.

Then maybe we'll learn that when thugs say things, they mean them. And they will act as they write/speak.

And then we can respond accordingly!

If Hamas "is in every household?" Then we have a bigger job, might as well begin.

The problem is that stories like this get little or no air play. I know the USA is a strong supporter of Israel but if we saw more of these statements and sentiments on broadcast news there would be more support for Israel to destroy, as in kill, all of the terrorist groups harbored, financed and morally supported by the Palestinians. If we can get upset at France over their behavior we should be royally pissed off at Palestinians. Where is the outrage??

Current US Policy: "Hamas is the problem"

Hamas' response: "Hamas exists in every Palestinian home"

Not many paths one can draw from this -- one to be precise.
 

Before I read the comments - I would like to add my 2 cents:

1) YES they live in every home
2) Bush knows this (god - I hope he does)
3) Proving this, by offering a carrot and having it ripped appart as so much clerical flesh is part of the peace process

Do you not think that having US troops ripping Hamas appart is a good idea? Personally, I feel that it would end some of the territorial disputes in the middle east...

Isn't this a bit like when the National Alliance says stuff like "every White American would agree with us if they could get a chance to hear our message"?

Seems like lunacy and bravado all wrapped into one wacky statement. And I'm not talking about Sen. Lugar's suggestion of putting American troops into the fray on the West Bank and Gaza.

Hamas must definitely be related to the old Hashhasin's - doped up on the hash - to come up with pronouncements that basically support Israel's position all along:

Terrorists lie in wait in civilian population.

Israeli attacks that kill or wound 'civilians' are justified because the 'civilians' are really Hamas or other terrorist groups parading around in civies.

Israel's destruction of homes in retaliation for terrorist attacks are justified because the homes are used as staging points for terrorist attacks.

Homes of terrorists are subject to demolition as they are being used to give shelter for terrorists.

Senator Richard Lugar wants to send US troops to fight Hamas. Hasan Silwari says Hamas exists in every Palestinian home.

Where's the problem?

Lugar actually wants NATO or the UN (possibly involving Americans) to fight Hamas. I can't see many US soldiers being happy to serve under UN command tho'.

#7 NC:

Lugar must have been on heavy medication when he threw that idea out there. Jesus.

Perhaps, but I think Sen. Lugar gets is hinting at something important here. I believe Lugar is alluding to the fact that if the US is serious about "peace" in the Middle East, we have to be ready & willing to put our money where our mouths are. Israel cannot be left out in the cold, and if the roadmap is to succeed, we may have to help the Israelis root out the terrorists.

Just a thought, and I could be way off base here, but I don't think Sen. Lugar is a foolish character in the habbit of indulging in a rant.

can anyone explain, why it should bother for israel if we do the job for them?

Meanwhile, back at the newly "reformed" NY Times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are still refered to as "militant groups".

"we may have to help the Israelis root out the terrorists."

Im thinking - that if we actually want this to work - WE HAVE TO ROOT OUT THE TERRORISTS. Inother words - have the army that just obliterated the bad guys in 2 other nations, obliterate the bad guys again.

The palis wont know what to do when they have troops as bad ass as the Israelis storming through their towns arresting the trouble makers and flying them off to some un-named location for interrigation and processing.

The best part in all of this, is that a majority of the troops in this sort of situation WONT be Jewish or Israeli. Think about the psychological power of that happening in the west bank.

The message this will CLEARLY state to the Palis? THIS WAS YOUR LAST CHANCE.

Er, has anyone thought that Hamas might be, er EXAGGERATING more than a little bit? It seems disingenuous to call them lying terrorist scum in every other thread on LGF and then suddenly take their word for gospel (ho ho) that every Palestinian is a Hamas member.

Perhaps its part of a demonization process for the Palestinians which will lead to eventual "transfer" or worse. Sounds familiar to another process which occurred last century...

They may or may not be in every home, but Hamas is on every wall.

#16 Steve

Because Israel can do the job for itself. When you're 55 years old and your mommy is telling you to put on a sweater its bothersome.

A lot of anti-Israel criticism is based on the notion that Israel mooches off the United States. Just what Israel needs, American troops dying to defend Israel when Israel if perfectly capable of defending itself.

What Israel needs is American moral support and 'permission' from the president, not American GIs who don't know the terrain or the Palestinians to be doing a job that Israel can do.

Stuff it Gordon. I don't recall Jewish terrorists killing innocent Germans in the 1930's. These bastards are asking for it and I hope they get what they have coming to them.

#19 Gordon

Hamas's suicide bombings enjoy 80% support among the Palestinians according to a recent poll by the Pew Research Center, a reputable and scientific polling institute. Other polls confirm this level of support. To date this level of support has never dipped below about 65%. Sure, that indicates that there is a minority who don't support suicide bombings and even that there is a "swing minority" who at some point may not support them. But the fact is that Hamas is not "a few people". They're a part and parcel of the landscape in the West Bank and particularly Gaza.

Gordon,

A question.
How many buses need to be blown up, planes hijacked, airport counters shot up, Americans assasinated etc. before you concede that we needn't demonize this culture in order to understand what they amply demonstrate. That they are, in fact, demons?

#24: If they are all demons, then what is your solution? Genocide?

'DOESN'T HE KNOW THAT HAMAS EXISTS IN EVERY PALESTINIAN HOME?'

And doesn't HE know that we're in the process of taming a country the size of california with a population of over 24 million...?

Laying seige to Gaza and the West Bank would be a comparitive cake-walk if we really put our minds to it.

Arrogant prick.

#21 Steve

What Israel needs is American moral support and 'permission' from the president, not American GIs who don't know the terrain or the Palestinians to be doing a job that Israel can do.

Yup, that is the first step (and, I realize you're using the term 'permission' loosely). The United States needs to stop playing politics, stop paying mere lip service to peace, and start actively making it happen by giving Israel the moral and diplomatic support it needs to completely destroy Hamas, the Islamic Jihad-Palestine, and the entire PA structure. The U.S. needs to end official recognition of the PA, stop treating Arafat like he is a head of "state", and demand that he be tried for crimes against humanity like the terrorist scum that he is. Finally, I believe that official U.S. policy for a "Palestine" should proceed along the lines proposed in the Elon "Road to Peace" plan.

#24 Gordon

I know that Sean's post was tantalizing. No, genocide is not an option. So why not read #23 and comment on that?

Gordon: Hamas doesn't lie, and I never called them "lying" terrorist scum. "Terrorist scum," yes, I called them that.

Hamas is totally upfront about their goals and methods. It's people like you -- who insist on projecting your Western ideas of fairness and decency on Hamas -- who are seriously deluded.

Steve #16, Bender #18,

Instead of having the US do Israel's work for it, the US should just allow Israel to do the job. For one thing, in the minds of the Arabs, it will be made clear (for at least one or two years) that Israel is not just going to roll over and die. And that's the message that needs to be broadcast to the Arabs.

International troops in Israel is a horrible idea. The UN, given their anti-Israeli history, would be abomination. If you need me to explain why, please feel free to do so. NATO troops wouldn't be as bad, but there's simply no reason or justification for it. In terms of reason, Israel is at least as capable. In terms of justification, Israel is not a NATO ally.

But it seems like we (the US) are talking out of both sides of our mouth. Reports have it that the CIA is giving Dahlan $6K for each rifle he gets in his "preventative" security force which gets passed on the members. Many of those chosen are ex-terrorists.

There's two things the US should do here:
1) Choose which side we're going to be on. The decision should be made at the top of the government and respected all the way down the CIA, State, and all of the other rebellious departments.
2) The US should let Israel and the palestinians sort out their problems. Just like Bush said when campaigning for President, if the two sides can't come to an agreement, there's precious little any outside force can do to impose one.

No Arabs - no terror

#19 Gordon

Perhaps its part of a demonization process for the Palestinians which will lead to eventual "transfer" or worse. Sounds familiar to another process which occurred last century...

The only people who are likely to be transferred are Israelis. It is all ready happening to people living in "Out Posts". I don't know how you can compare the Holocaust to transfer.

A Buck Solution for Peace in the Middle East

A Buck Solution for Peace in the Middle East
Recently I offered a solution for peace in the Middle East, but now I've decided to get a military opinion on the matter. That's why I've asked Buck the Marine for his ideas on solving the conflict between the Israelis and Palesinians.

Hi, I'm Buck, Buck the Marine. I kill foreigners. Usually I'm not involved in no strategery though; I just take orders like, "Go kill those foreigners." Then I kill those foreigners and leave the reasoning to other people, like Rumsfeld, who's smart and hates all foreigners. But I was asked for my opinion, so here it is.

Now, as I understand it, a bunch of Jews decided they wanted to live in the midst of angry Muslims. Seems like a crazy idea, but there's no reason people should be blowing up little children. The Palestinians think it's all right to do that because of their religion, but Jesus wouldn't like people blowing up children. He probably wouldn't stab those people with a Ka-Bar, but you're asking for Buck's solution, not Jesus's. I'd go door to door asking, "Do you like blowing up children?"

And, if the person answered, "No, I do not."

I'd say, "Good evening, sir," and be on my way.

But if, the person answered, "Yes, blowing up children is good," I'd stick him with my Ka-Bar. When all the people who like blowing up children are good and stabbed, then you'll be on the road to peace. And, if I understand it correctly, that should stop the suicide bombing, since you need to be alive to commit suicide.

More at this place. Dark humor.

Gordon,

Was the US war on Nazi Germany genocide? How about the one on Japan? Is destroying al-Qaeda genocide? My answer to all these is no. We are not slaughtering innocents because of the way they look, who they worship or where they came from.

We are in a war with a culture that repeatedly engages in unprovoked, horrifying, unacceptable behavior.

That is why we should wage war upon them. With the same goal as WWII. To destroy that culture and replace it with a better one.

#32: The reason I compare "transfer" to other events from the past century is that Hitler started out wanting to "transfer" the Jews. The Germans even considered Palestine, but their preferred dumping ground was Madagascar. As we know, the idea of transfer was replaced by another idea.

"Transfer" is an understandable panacea to Israelis tired and sickened of violence from the Palestinians. The only alternative I see is a 50-year re-education campaign, combining the carrot and the stick. But that's a lot of work, with an uncertain payoff, and the "easy" transfer solution beckons like a siren song, trying to lead Israel to its doom.

# 33

I just spilled my coke all over my desk! LMAO

#34: Now there's an answer and an analogy that makes sense. The only caveat I have is that there are those in the LGF community that think the entire religion of Islam is the culture and society that must be destroyed.

Er, has anyone thought that Hamas might be, er EXAGGERATING more than a little bit?

Great point Gordon! In fact, today will be very important in the peace process, as millions of Jordyptians take to the streets to proclaim that Hamas in no way represents them or their beliefs. We're talking about a very vocal and politically active population, so they certainly won't be shy in voicing their displeasure with the statement.

Not millions? Hundreds of thousands? Thousands? A hundred? Thirteen? Well, it was an opening to be a contrarian, so I'm sure you're content.

#17 Meanwhile, back at the newly "reformed" NY Times, Hamas and Islamic Jihad are still refered to as "militant groups".

The Boston Globe, a wholly owned NYT subsidiary, also refers to Hamas and IJ as militant groups. In a recent piece on Rantisi he was described as a "prominent" militant and that "one on one, he can be a pleasant converstionalist". Ugh! I'm sure he also loves puppies, butterflies and rainbows!

Gordon #35,

So were the Jews in Nazi Germany, at the time that the Germans contemplated transfer, more or less of a threat to the German state then the palestinians are to the Israeli state?

And another point; one reason Hamas enjoys support among Palestinians is that there is no palatable political alternative. Hamas or Arafish and Fatah? Hamas or Islamic Jihad? Hamas or Sharon? Hamas or Peres? There is a vacuum of political leadership among the Palestinians which Hamas is filling.

Perhaps Mr. Abbas can provide the alternative. Oh, but I forgot, he is nothing but Arafish's puppet, according to LGF. And if he isn't, oh well! I guess that leaves only the military option, or the "transfer" option.

#40 Ariel. Of course the Palestinians are much more of a threat. So do you think "transfer" is an option because they are more of a threat?

#41 Gordon

Yes, one reason is because there is a political vaccum. Another is because they murder Jews.

#16 Steve

can anyone explain, why it should bother for israel if we do the job for them?

'cause you won't. The only thing that will happen is that the IDF will be forbidden from entering PLO-controlled zones, while the terrorists will be roaming at will.

#25 Gordon

If they are all demons, then what is your solution? Genocide?

*Sigh* Why do anti-Semite systematically throw the word "genocide" into the conversation each time a Jew talks about defending his life?

Gordon, you are a disguting piece of anti-semitic shit.

On another forum, only today.

A 21 year old German guy writes:

Now the Israeli government is involved in a new shoa - this time the victims are Palestinian people. Sorry but if people learned something from WWII and the various crimes against humanity they would stop ANY country (involving Israel) doing such a thing again. Israeli forces deport Palestinians.

#41 Gordon

Abbas is a puppet according to LGF?

I don't know about the rest of this sites readers... but I do not rely on the opinions expressed here to base my assesments of the situation in Israel.

Instead... I tend to base my opinions on the actual actions taken by both sides of this conflict... if one does this objectively I find it hard to fathom that anyone can actualy think of Abbas as a courageous leader-in-waiting... desprately trying to reign in the forces opposing this latest "roadmap to peace".

He is there for one reason... and one reason alone... western media consumption.

But I suppose the fact that he has made absolutly no substantitive moves towards reigning in the "rouge" elements could be overlooked... if one were so inclined.

#46 James

Sounds like Gordon, huh?

#41 Gordon

Perhaps Mr. Abbas can provide the alternative. Oh, but I forgot, he is nothing but Arafish's puppet, according to LGF. And if he isn't, oh well! I guess that leaves only the military option, or the "transfer" option

Do you prefer the current "Roadmap" that's being proposed? Because that calls for the "transfer" of Jews. Why is it OK to "transfer" these people, but not Palestinians?

#46 Caton

That was my point.

This guy is currently leaking out of his new hole. He even sobbed to me about how some alleged relative of his was killed for voting against Hitler.

Gordon #41,

It's worse then you think. As you might know, Arafatistan is run like a police state. You might want to read about his tactics leading up to his first "election" or consider that he's managed a country which kills more then one collaborator every three days for the last three years (see www.ict.org.il).

Consider this quote from the article:

What made the PA security forces particularly effective in stifling dissent was their wide range of political activities. The intelligence units, especially the PSS, sought to identify opponents of Arafat and the PA, and to win their cooperation or their silence. Their officers engaged in numerous tactics that are off-limits to police in democratic states: Threatening political opponents, censoring the media, intimidating NGO leaders and human rights activists, and enforcing business monopolies given to Arafat's allies.

Israel has also captured documents where Arafat refused to give a terrorist say $1K and only gave $600 (I don't recall the exact numbers) - in other words, he controls things down to the last detail.

Given his control over the political process and the palestinian polity, does it seem particularly likely to you that Hamas acts outside of his jurisdiction or against his will? Given that Arafat has managed the execution of one citizen every three days (even while under Israeli "occupation"), does it seem possible that there is dissent in the palestinian territories.

No, Gordon, Hamas is just another part of Arafat's strategy. This man is a totalitarian; there's no evidence to indicate that he allows dissent. None.

#45 Caton

and just to play devil's advocate here for a moment... why does Gordon's dissenting opinion automaticaly infer an anti-semetic bias?

Perhaps he's just uncomfortable with the idea of "removing" the entire Palestinian population?

Just a thought.

Actually, if this regards the statements Lugar made on Fox News Sunday, he didn't sound very sure of himself. It was as if he was trying to play partisan and back the Bush "Tamp down the violence, partner for peace, call on both sides for restraint" line. Snow's a good interviewer, and it seems for that reason or others Lugar was off his "game." Dunno if he's expanded upon those remarks elsewhere, but he didn't come off as hawkish to me.

In some sense, American forces would be good. If they were there to go after the terrorists and not to half-ass it, and if they otherwise stay out of Israel's way. Let the EUrab League have someone else to fuss at. Let's see if the boycott crowd is really ready to put their money where their mouth is. It would also be great for forming American opinion on what's going on there, and expose the agendas of the pro-Jordyptian camp. "Gee, those screams from the NYT, Jennings and Sarandon about genocide and massacres are crap now, just like they were months ago."

#45
Look, I'm new on the site.
But being opposed to Israeli policy or the Israeli government doesn't make one anti-Semitic. Neither does questioning or invoking the word genocide in response to my post. It was a fair question.

Anti-Semites hate Jews for being Jews. I see no evidence here Gordon does that.

Further, people like Gordon enable/force me to hone arguments/debating skills/rethink my positions. That's a wonderful thing. Those talents, when honed, and applied can change people's minds.

Keep the anti-Semite slur for when it's really obvious.

Gordon #41,

Perhaps Mr. Abbas can provide the alternative. Oh, but I forgot, he is nothing but Arafish's puppet, according to LGF.

On a Fox News live interview, Abbas said that the buck stops at Arafat. Not at Abbas. I guess I take him at his word, just like I take him at his word that he won't do anything to stop terrorism, except negotiate "cease-fires". Just like I take him at his word that he refuses to give up the "right of return" or that he refuses to acknowledge that Israel is the Jewish state. It's really not that hard to discredit Abbas, you just have to listen.

Of course the Palestinians are much more of a threat. So do you think "transfer" is an option because they are more of a threat?

I think that transfer is an option because they have refused to renounce genocide and have continued to act on that belief. You can't really say that was the case for Jews in Germany, Gordon.

#52

I'm not one to bandy about "antisemite" easily, but its a common antisemitic talking point to compare Israel to the Nazis.

That this is patently false and deeply insulting to Jews should be obvious.

But to spell it out further, it's simply obscene to compare the murder of two out of every three Jews that were in Hitler's reach to an ethnic and/ or territorial conflict in which both sides are killing and the numbers are in the low thousands. There is no comparison and no parallel, except in the mind of someone with an agenda, either to minimize the Holocaust or to demonize the Jews or some combination of the two.

and just to play devil's advocate here for a moment... why does Gordon's dissenting opinion automaticaly infer an anti-semetic bias?

Because he's making a veiled attempt at equating making Jordyptians live in their countries of origin (i.e. Arafat back to Egypt) with a campaign to exterminate Jews.

#54 sean

"Anti-Semites hate Jews for being Jews"

That's only one of many reasons antisemites hate Jews.

#52 Mr. Bigglesworth

Devil's advocate? More like "idiot's advocate".

Acknowledging that the Arabs in Yesha are the enemy is a necessary step toward a peaceful solution. Not a small number, not just the terrorists, but the Arab population as a whole. The alternative to acknowledging this fact is the destruction of Israel.

Each time a Jew points out this fact, the automatic response from the disgusting pieces of anti-semitic shit is, "you're advocating genocide!"

Technically, the ICC definition of genocide being killing more than one member of an ethnic group (including soldiers in the battlefield), well, yes, I'm advocating genocide. Actually, I committed genocide.

#54 sean crowley

It is really obvious. But keep those eyes closed. You'll die peacefully that way.

The Palis have been brainwashed for decades by a criminally lunatic system of instilling hate, a thirst for revenge, an indoctrination into a cult of death -- suicide and murder --, a desire to spite the Israelis more than a desire to improve themselves, miscalculation concerning what is feasible, and generally not thinking pragmatically. One thing the road map lacks as a mile post is an overhaul of the Pali educational curriculum.

But the problem at the moment is what to do to disarm and dismantle the Hamas genocide machine. Giving it a hudna means giving it an opportunity to re-arm and re-build itself, which would make disarming and dismantling Hamas vastly more difficult.

Here's an article by Barry Rubin, The Region: Real strategy vs wishful thinking
http://www.jpost.com...

"The problem may be unsolvable, but if it is solvable it will only be because the radical leaders are afraid or unable to act because they are dead, on the run, or unable to function."

But to be clearer, I don't think Gordon is an anti-Semite, though he often uses the same arguments of those that openly are. Though not an idiot, he's playing the "useful idiot" role to the hilt. Somewhere between contrarianism, politics and distrust of the West is where you'll find his motivation.

Sean,

The word genocide has a real meaning. It's an enormous word. Every time its used to describe things other than real genocide it cheapens life. We don't have another word to describe killing hundreds of thousands or millions of people. If genocide comes to mean deporting people (which may in itself be a horrific crime or it might not, we can debate that) then deporting people becomes the equivalent of millions of corpses. Can't you see that this devalues human life? We have to be careful not to devalue human life just so that we can stick it to Israel or the West. This is exactly what is happening.

#51 Caton

And despite all this, the Left (and many other naive people from different sides of the political spectrum) still wants to create a "Palestine"!!! This is especially hypocritical coming from Lefties, since it will obviously be creating another dictatorship in the region (just what everybody needs, right?), as well as ethnically cleansing the area of Jewish people. Then, when human rights continue to be abused in this so-called "Palestine" the left will blame the U.S. (and probably Israel, too) for proping up the regime!!!!! Hrmmph!

#62 Model4

But to be clearer, I don't think Gordon is an anti-Semite

At this point, I don't care any more. Anybody who denies us the right to defend our lives is now on my target list, whatever his/her reason.

Actualy... if you'll re-read the responses... what set him on the "genocide" path was a post that basicaly said that the palestinian culture didn't need to be demonized bacause it was in fact... made up of demons... and from that... one could logicaly infer that "removing" them one way or another wouldn't be all that bad.

Sorry... but in my eyes... that kind of thinking... if extrapolated to its logical conclusion does in fact have a bit of "final solution" ring to it...

#65 Caton

Yeah, this "rules for Jews" business is getting old fast.

#66 Mr. Bigglesworth

Actually, if you read the posts, you'll see exactly where Gordon was coming from.

But hey, if you, too, think Jews should not be allowed to defend themselves, just say so.

Gordon #41

Perhaps Mr. Abbas can provide the alternative. Oh, but I forgot, he is nothing but Arafish's puppet, according to LGF.

Arafat has power to appoint officials: http://www.jpost.com...

According to Hanah Ashwari, Arafat still has "tremendous power".

Even AP thinks he is still very much the top man:

He delayed a meeting between Abbas and Sharon for a day last week because he wanted to review Israeli security proposals before approving the talks. When that meeting was over, Abbas rushed to the Muqata to brief Arafat.

http://news.findlaw....

Abbas himself said: "We do not do anything without his [Arafat's] approval." That's from Reuters.

http://www.wujs.org....

Just so we're clear, AP, Reuters, Abbas, Arafat and Ashwari all know Arafat is still in charge. Colin Powell said a similar thing some weeks back.

Why can't you accept it?

The only caveat I have is that there are those in the LGF community that think the entire religion of Islam is the culture and society that must be destroyed.

Not necessarily "destroyed", but changed.  Islam, by the admission of its followers, is incompatible with freedom:

"Islam is not consistent with democracy, at least it is not consistent with what is widely believed to be democracy in today's world. The only freedom that exists is the freedom to do anything that is in accord with the Will of Allah."
http://islamic-world...

The evidence is widely published, and freely available.  You just choose to ignore it, perhaps because it goes against your desire to accept all cultures as equal.

Any culture that relies upon the subjugation, brainwashing, and incitement of its populace, is a plague that either must change, or if that fails, must be destroyed.  Either that, or the culture that values freedom must change.

Islam -- which is both a religion and a political structure -- is just not compatible with the free world, and this 'infidel' will never submit to Allah.
 

No 15 and 16 and others cannot seem to grasp why Israelis would not want US or other foreign troops to fight our enemies.

Can you really not grasp the insult and the degradation in this idea?

In 1948, 600,000 Israelis beat the full military forces of six Arab states. In 1967 and 1973 beat them again.
Why insinuate that we cannot do it this time?

All we need is a government willing to fight for its country. A prime minister with the guts to say what Golda said: "Better a bad review than a good obituary".

What we DO NOT NEED is to become the helpless dependant of any other country that thinks it has to fight for us. And then treat us like a vassal, because it thinks it saved us.

Is that the Bush family plan? A replay on a large scale of what Bush-1 did in 1991? Stop Israel from defending itself and then sneer at Israel for making US men and women defend it (which they never did).

Caton and James,

With all respect,

Can't someone just be wrong, as Gordon is?

Or does it automatically lead to slurs?

James,

Gordon wrogly used the word genocide. I agree. That's what I pointed out to him.

My point to you now is, if you wish to be persuasive, the unnecessary namecalling is counterproductive.

You have the facts on your side. Use them well and the middle of the roaders (though I'll admit I don't know how they get there on this one) can be persuaded.

By the way, if your "Rules for Jews" comment applied to me, you are incorrect. I suggest rules for honest debate and maximum persuasion, regardless of topic or background of debaters.

#72 sean crowley

How many times has somebody to be wrong and knowingly insulting before you reply in kind?

I cut him enough slack to confirm he's nothing more than a disgusting piece of anti-semitic shit.

Sean,

That comment didn't apply to you. It applied to Caton's comment that "Anybody who denies us the right to defend our lives is now on my target list, whatever his/her reason."

As per Colt's links in #69,

  * Arafat appointed Mazen.

  * Mazen says "Arafat is in charge".

How is he not Arafat's puppet??
 

What is the position of Senator Richard Lugar?

Any intelligence committies?

Perhaps he's seen hard evidence of Hamas direct involvement with Al-Qaida.

CLIO,

I certainly mean no insult. I think we are acting as friends coming to the aid of valued friends and allies.

Nothing more.

But it is certainly you perogative to reject our offer.

Caton,

As I said, I'm new, I'll keep my eyes open, fair enough?

#68 Caton

Where did I ever say that the jews didn't have the right to defend themselves?

Let's get this straight...

I find it disgusting the way that Isreal is forced to fight this enemy with both hands tied behined their back and would like nothing more than to see the IDF REALLY roll into Gaza and the West Bank to totaly clean house... get rid of Arafat... DESTROY Hammas... Hiz b'allah etc... no more of these half-assed attempts... but really and finaly do the job that needs to be done. Namely remove the elements whose stated goal is the destruction of the jewish state.

I also find the concerted effort on the world stage to portray Israel's self defense as some kind of effort to extermininate the "palestinians" equally disgusting.

Period.

What I do however disagree with is the characterization that all arabs are the enemy.

So, Caton, I am a bit confused, do you want to kill all Arabs? All Muslims? Or all "palestinians"? Or not? I'm just trying to understand peoples motivations. I remember a time when Caton was one of the most literate, rational posters on this board. Unfortunately, well, he's not anymore. Perhaps it's just the topic. I know he is a lot closer to the topic than I could ever be! Being that I am not jewish and have never been to Israel. It's just sad that some people, not saying Caton does or not, throw around 'antisemite' way too much. But then again, his opinion, similarly to Gordon's, is pretty irrelevant to me.

Anyways... the topic at hand. Pretty much don't think the US or NATO needs troops on the ground. We just need to tell the euro-trash to STFU and let Israel do what she needs to do. Personally, I am hoping that is what all this Roadmap nonsense is about. To show, 'look, Israel has done x,y AND z. Yet the Pali's continue their attacks!'. Then with that clearly demonstrated maybe europe will STFU (or alteast be ignored) and Israel can take care of the terrorists. But the truth is, while Arafat is in power there can't be peace. Even if Israel killed every member of Hamas, Al Aqsa etc the fish would just create more terrorists. He must be eliminated from the equation. Plain and simple.

re #49 mickthemick's question:
"that calls for the 'transfer' of Jews. Why is it ok to 'transfer' these people [the Jews], but not Palestinians?"

Does Gordon, or anyone else for that matter, have an answer to mickthemick's question?

Let me admit my own bias: personally, I think that transfer is terribly painful to a family, regardless of the religious beliefs of the head of the family.

Here's what seems illogical to me, and maybe somebody can explain it: I don't see how the world can be absolutely horrified at the thought of transferring a family that is Muslim, but finds it perfectly normal and natural to discuss transferring a family that is Jewish.

True, Jewish families have been transferred throughout history from hundreds (or is it thousands) of towns and cities throughout the world -- but although much of the world has gotten accustomed to this, that does not make it right. The Euros have certainly done their share of ethnic cleansing against Jewish families -- there is hardly a region from which Jewish families have not been transferred throughout history in Europe. But when the Jews are living in Judea and Samaria, the cradle of Jewish history, the place where the Hebrew prophets gave their eternal messages and where Hebrew kings ruled, how then can the Euros come after them yet one more time and demand that they be expelled yet again?

This holding of the state of Israel to higher standards of conduct than any other country because Jews suffered genocide under the Nazis is blatantly anti-Semitic. Yet again and again references to Nazi Germany are used when discussing the contemporary Israeli situation, when the only true parallel is that Jews are being killed because they are Jews.

why does no one consider the 67% of polled Israelis who don't consider the assasination of Hamas leaders a particularly clever policy at the moment?

The 'friendship to Israel' displayed here appears a little selective.

#45: Caton, you didn't answer the question. What is your solution?

#79 Mr. Bigglesworth

What I do however disagree with is the characterization that all arabs are the enemy.

That's because you are trying to put words in my mouth, a fallacious argument that is really despicable. "Arabs as a whole" != "all Arabs".

An analogy will make it clearer to those who didn't see your despicable tactic.

In 1942, Japan as a whole supported the Japan military regime in its war against the U.S. Saying that the Japanese were the enemy of the U.S. was fair.

Today, the Arabs as a whole support the terrorists in their war against Israel. Saying that the Arabs are the enemy of Israel is fair.

Nowhere in this thread is mentioned the fact Lugar is regarded as a key leader of US foreign policy.

Taking a cheap swipe at a very powerful and influential man is, idiocy. This is a man that could send $500 million in aid to a nacent Palestinian state. Now the money can go to Uganda instead.

I do not think the US needs to get into a sideshwo with HAMAS or patroling the Gaza-Israel border. I think Israel would be better off announcing it was unilaterally pulling out of Gaza and returning the place to Egypt. If mUbaraks son could make a few mil a year beating up Palestinians, its a done deal.

#84

Not only you are a disgusting piece of anti-semitic shit, you are also a weasel. I am NOT going to answer the same question by the same oxygen stealer another hundred times. The first fifty or so are more than enough.

This deserves to be reprinted:

#34 sean crowley  6/17/2003 09:38AM PST

Gordon,

Was the US war on Nazi Germany genocide? How about the one on Japan? Is destroying al-Qaeda genocide? My answer to all these is no. We are not slaughtering innocents because of the way they look, who they worship or where they came from.

We are in a war with a culture that repeatedly engages in unprovoked, horrifying, unacceptable behavior.

That is why we should wage war upon them. With the same goal as WWII. To destroy that culture and replace it with a better one.

Faster. Please.

#56: James. I agree that there is no current similarity between Israel and Nazi Germany. I just don't want there to start being one.

Caton has also claimed that the genocide of Muslims (as opposed to palestinians) is 'inevitable'.
He may have been having a temper tantrum at the time, but I think it brings some clarity to his attitude.

#57: More demonology; this time the lie that the Palestinians are nothing more than interlopers. Stop looking for rationales for inhumane and barbaric policy options and start looking for a solution consistent with Western Civilization.

Gordon (etc) #84

You didn't retract your comments in #41 either.

----------

VFI #83

It is the consensus opinon at LGF that killing terrorists is a Good Thing. 67% (JPost statistic? I forget) of Israelis disagree.

Most here percieve killing Hamas members as beneficial to Israeli security. Disagreement isn't in any way "selective", is it?

#80 TheGreatSwami

I answered to that same question fifty times or more... Again, you are mistaken if you think there is an Israel/"Palestinian" conflict. What we have here is an Israel/Arab League countries conflict. To address the situation of the Arabs in Yesha, the whole conflict must be resolved in one way or another.

Do a search on my posts, you'll find my proposed plan at least 50 times.

#59: Caton; the solution to intolerance and evil is the defeat of that intolerance and evil without becoming a mirror image of the defeated. That's Israel's quandary. I never would claim the solution is easy; it certainly would be "easier" in a way to murder half the Palestinians and send the other half packing to Egypt and Jordan with nothing but their clothes and their babies on their backs. It's certainly the solution Hamas and Islamic Jihad would advocate if they had control. Do you really want to be known as the Israeli version of Hamas and Islamic Jihad?

#90 view from Ireland

You have a link for this?

The howling banshee again?

83 VFI wrote:

why does no one consider the 67% of polled Israelis who don't consider the assasination of Hamas leaders a particularly clever policy at the moment?

First of all, it was 58%, not 67%. Secondly, that 58% said they were in favor of "provisionally suspending" the attacks, to give PM Mahmoud Abbas a chance to gain credibility. Only 9% (rather paltry, wouldn't you admit?) favored stopping the attacks altogether.

#61: By the way, I thoroughly support the Israeli government's targeting of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Does that sound anti-semitic, Caton?

#89 Gordon

How about not bringing up that red herring then? It unfairly enters comparisons to Nazis into the accepted rhetoric of the debate. Plus surely you know how insulting this comparison is to Jews, especially since it is false.

Islamic Speculum

"Taking a cheap swipe at a very powerful and influential man is, idiocy. This is a man that could send $500 million in aid to a nacent Palestinian state. Now the money can go to Uganda instead."

One hopes that money would go to Uganda. Why would anyone want the U.S. funding a nascent Palestinian state?

#94

You are on my shit list. Talk to somebody else. Bring your moral equivalence, insults and high standards to somebody else.

Oh, and fuck you, too.

#92  Colt 

Most here percieve killing Hamas members as beneficial to Israeli security. Disagreement isn't in any way "selective", is it?

Disagreement is not selective, but wilfulling ignoring the opinion of those you claim to speak up for is disingenuous. Now I don't actually believe most posters here, or Charles for that matter speak for anyone but themselves, but some people (by their claims) seem to believe they do.

Never any harm in a bit of clarity.

#85 Caton

Enough of the rhetoric already... that said...

Taking your analogy of 1940s Japan... one could argue that it was the Imperialist government of Japan that was the true enemy... and not the japanese as a whole... no?

Look what has happened once that system of government was replaced... surprise... from mortal enemy to closest of ally.

So... saying the arabs are the enemy is a bit disingenious... when in actualy... its the regimes and "schools" that feed their hatred who are to blame... there's a distinct difference... just as there was in Japan.

#83 view from Ireland
I can understand why many Israelis want a respite from the war, so they can continue going about their lives without fear for the moment. "Peace in our time" was hailed by so much of the world when Chamberlain got a promise from Herr Hitler that things would now be peaceful. I can understand people's wishful thinking; but that doesn't make it a solution.

But a government has to have a longer time horizon -- what happens after the respite ends?

The road map calls for disarming and dismantling the terrorist organizations. The leader of the terrorist organizations, IMO, is Hamas, so think of Hamas. Their goal, given unmistakably in their charter or covenant, is the destruction of Israel. If Hamas got a period of respite, a hudna, they would use it re-arm and to re-build their terror organization. That would make life vastly more difficult for their victims -- the Israelis -- after the hudna came to an end.

That is why the focus should follow what the road map says: disarming and dismantling the terrorist organizations. Not giving them respite and hoping they will undergo a metamorphasis and forget about jihad, forget about their sworn goal of destroying Israel.

#81 EE

Here's what seems illogical to me, and maybe somebody can explain it: I don't see how the world can be absolutely horrified at the thought of transferring a family that is Muslim, but finds it perfectly normal and natural to discuss transferring a family that is Jewish.

I think, in part, it's because the Arabs have won the propaganda war in the western media. Jews in Judea & Samaria are without fail always referred to as settlers, extremists, uncompromising Orthodox/conservative Jews, and it's rare to read an article on the subject without seeing the word 'illegal' repeated again & again. (Who made the law that Jews cannot live in Judea BTW?)

Whereas the Palestinian residents of Judea are seen as peace loving peasants who only wish to tend the olive groves that have been in their families for centuries. - Because we all know what an oasis of agricultural productivity Israel was under the Ottoman rule.

#101 Mr. Bigglesworth 6/17/2003 11:05AM PST

Taking your analogy of 1940s Japan... one could argue that it was the Imperialist government of Japan that was the true enemy... and not the japanese as a whole... no?

Oh, yes. Then of course Marines should not have killed ordinary Japanese soldiers, nor the U.S.A.F. bombed poor Japanese cities just to get some industrial plants, 'cause you know, the Japanese are not the enemy...

Guess who would have won?

Look what has happened once that system of government was replaced... surprise... from mortal enemy to closest of ally.

Ten years of military occupation of the Arab world and de-Islamization of the Arabs would achieve the same thing.

So... saying the arabs are the enemy is a bit disingenious... when in actualy... its the regimes and "schools" that feed their hatred who are to blame... there's a distinct difference... just as there was in Japan.

Saying "the Arabs are not the enemy" ensures the fight will be lost.

Gordon

"it certainly would be "easier" in a way to murder half the Palestinians and send the other half packing to Egypt and Jordan with nothing but their clothes and their babies on their backs."

That is your vision of what "transfer" means.

What if my vision is not murdering half the Palestinians, but murdering none of the Palestinians. Not sending the Palestinians packing with nothing, but sending the Palestinians with all their things, to decent housing and compensation in $$? Is that genocide?

If the world is interested in settling this issue they would be interested in settling the refugee issue. They would help them be absorbed and naturalized by their host countries. They would receive compensation and they would get on with life without existing as pawns to wage proxy war against Israel.

Sure, you'll laugh at my vision of "transfer" but even if it falls short of that transfer does not equal murdering 1.5 million and brutally expelling the rest and leaving them penniless.

VFI

Ok, I'll clear that up for you. I percieve that most LGFers percieve that attacks on terrorists is a good thing. How many regular posters have said anything to the contrary in the "Got Another One" threads?

More clarification. I personally believe that killing terrorists is good for Israeli security. Israelis are free to disagree. I think they are wrong, they may think I am wrong.

The Israeli elections showed a preference for parties promising tough measures: http://www.meretzusa...

And according to SoCalJustice's link,

a poll a published Wednesday - revealed that a majority of Israelis supported the strike, while only 33 percent disapproved of its timing and less than 10 percent even questioned such killings in principle.

#81: That's actually a very good question, one for which I do not have an answer. In a dream world Israeli settlers could live as a minority in a Palestinian state just as Palestinian citizens of Israel do, but that dream is decades, perhaps centuries off.

It's just that I don't see any alternative. Certainly Israel needs to retain some settlements for security reasons, and unless I am mistaken the roadmap allows for that.

For Israel to retain all of the settlements and retain control of the occupied/disputed/Judea-Samaria territories, it would have to annex or de-facto annex these territories. Then what to do with the Palestinians? "Transfer" them? Give them full Israeli citizenship? Make them second-class non-voting "apartheid"-type citizens?

That's why I think the roadmap is a 50-year roadmap, and it won't start until all parties recognize it as such.

#98: James. Because I believe that some of the wild-eyed statements thrown around on this site, if implemented, would start to make a comparison valid. Because I believe the "transfer" option bandied about by the far-right (I hope it's just the far right) in Israel would start to make a comparison valid.

Don't do it, Israel. Don't become a mirror image of your enemies. Then you are truly lost; you may have your land, but you will have lost your souls.

107 Gordon

"For Israel to retain all of the settlements and retain control of the occupied/disputed/Judea-Samaria territories, it would have to annex or de-facto annex these territories. Then what to do with the Palestinians? "Transfer" them? Give them full Israeli citizenship? Make them second-class non-voting "apartheid"-type citizens?"

In the borders as proposed in the Camp David proposal of 2000, 97% of the land claimed by the Palestinians would be given to them with 3% in compensation from Israel proper.

On this land mass lives over 99% of the Palestinians. The 3% Israel would not cede included the major settlements Israel was not agreeing to disband.

In short, there is no problem of what to do with the Palestinians who remain behind because virtually none would. And if there are a few hundred who did, yes, they can become Israeli Arabs if they liked.

#104 Caton

Oh, yes. Then of course Marines should not have killed ordinary Japanese soldiers, nor the U.S.A.F. bombed poor Japanese cities just to get some industrial plants, 'cause you know, the Japanese are not the enemy...

I said in an earlier post in this thread that many hardcore killers would have to be "delt with" just as the japanese soldiers encountered on the battlefield were... also... I don't know if you're aware of this... but military technology in the '40s wasn't quite were it is today... we no longer have to carpet bomb entire cities to achieve desired effect.

Ten years of military occupation of the Arab world and de-Islamization of the Arabs would achieve the same thing.

Occupy the "arab world" for a decade? OK... now how about throwing out a plan that is actualy possible...

#108 Gordon

Did India and Pakistan lose their soul when they transferred about 10 million people over their border?

Gordon (#89),
Your apprehension reminds me of the situation in Israel prior to the Iraq war. Many notable left-wing academics (I'm being very polite here) shrilled that Sharon will use the cover of war to initiate transfer. They evey wrote lettes to that effect to the international media.
But lo and behold - Israel didn't to ziltch.

We don't need people to worry about morality. The IDF is still the most moral military in the world. They commandeer houses - and give them back cleaned. In situations where the book calls to shoot first and ask questions later, they sometimes let the other side have the benefit of the doubt, in order to save lives. They send men instead of artillery, and lose lived in order to save the lives of the opposition.

Gordon (#91)
Transfer has been a tool used to solve many conflicts - including by western countries, such as Greece. Turkey was the other side in that exchange, but I'm not sure if you see them as western or not. Certainly they proved that Muslim people are not sacrosanct in the dewlling and can be moved and be much better off in their new country, which is full of people just like themselves.

Gordon,

I'd like your responses to my posts #51 and #55 since you seem to have avoided all of the tough questions therein.

SoCalJustice #96,

Good takedown of VFI. Not surprised to see her misrepresenting the truth again.

OT, but I have a friend who just said that Al-Guardian and the BBC have said that PFC Lynch wasn't actually wounded, it was all staged, etc. I tried searching here at LGF for a link de-bunking this, which I'm pretty sure happened, but I couldn't find it. Does anyone know where it is?

If you look at 1940s propaganda by the US against the Germans and Japanese, it most surely took a wholistic approach. There was no separation of the ruling clique and the people. You fought the Japs or the Krauts. The Allies did what they had to do - fight unconditionally and extract an unconditional surrender.

There has yet to be an unconditional surrender in the Arab-Israeli conflict, yet Israel continues to be harassed into giving up territory it won in conflict (despite all international law to that point supporting annexation and consolidation of territory captured in war).

The territories were captured from Syria, Egypt, and Jordan, not the Palestinians. The Israelis agreed to provide 'Palestinians' with land to be part of a future state under the terms of UN SCR 242 et seq.

Destroying and dismantling a terrorist organization is by no means 'genocide' or 'ethnic cleansing.'

Using either term in the context of fighting terrorism shows:

The complete misunderstanding of what either genocide or ethnic cleansing is;

The creeping moral relativism has rotted the mind; or

You support the efforts of terrorists and only seek to muddle the issue in your favor.

#110 Mr. Bigglesworth

I said in an earlier post in this thread that many hardcore killers would have to be "delt with" just as the japanese soldiers encountered on the battlefield were... also... I don't know if you're aware of this... but military technology in the '40s wasn't quite were it is today... we no longer have to carpet bomb entire cities to achieve desired effect.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but human psychology didn't change significantly since 1940. Keep repeating "Arabs are not the enemy" and whatever the technology, the will to fight won't be there.

In addition, again, the Arabs as a whole are supporting terrorism against Israel. The Arabs as a whole are funding terrorism against Israel. The Arabs as a whole are running a propaganda war against Israel. Like it or not, the Arabs as a whole are the enemy.

Occupy the "arab world" for a decade? OK... now how about throwing out a plan that is actualy possible...

What's your point? That the Arabs will never become the closest ally of Israel? Yep. I know that. So what? As long as they leave us alone, I'll be happy with the outcome.

Ariel (#113),

Al-Guardian and the BBC have said that PFC Lynch wasn't actually wounded, it was all staged,

Not wounded?

Well she was certainly injured.

She's Still in Hospital After 67 Days .

Maybe they are playing a game of semantics?

#105 James: You bring up some good points.

My "half and half" statement was hyperbole, but I'm not aware of any involuntary mass transfers of populations in modern history that have not been very bloody.

I also think a compensation scheme for Palestinian refugees outside of Israel to go live as a citizen somewhere else in the world and give up the chimerical "right of return" is an excellent idea. When I proposed it in a thread a couple of months ago the LGF extremists unmercifully shot it down. Which means it must be a good idea.

I suppose it might even work for Palestinians within the occupied/disputed/Judea-Samaria territories. If I were a miserable Palestinian in Gaza I would certainly consider taking a few thousand dollars for my family and I to emigrate to the United States, or Europe, or South America, or even (shudder) certain other Islamic countries in order to start a new life. But the LGF mantra is "no more Islamic immigration into the U.S., and consider kicking out the ones already here," (yes, I know, the second independent clause is only the viewpoint of LGF extremists), so that option has some problems.

So, what do you REALLY think?

114,
Sorry, still learning to link but Wa Po has a big story on jessica today.

#114 lawhawk

What does that mean for you when someone says Israel should pay more attention to not losing Jewish souls than to not losing Jewish lives? See #108 for an example.

Gordon: fishing for the genocide-advocacy again? you should at least try and lay it down for a day or two or it becomes too obvious! Kosovo, Bosnia, Kashmir, Mecca, Gaza, where else would you like your genocide to be advocated, sir? Some salad with the advocacy? Or chips? advocacy beer?

Your eagerness to distribute labels is really becoming a syndrome. You should have learnt the tactics of what you're defending, before you became a hopelessly ignorant apologist. You can't improvise it. It shows.

SoCalJustice (#96)

Beautiful work there. Now let's see if view from Ireland will be decent enough to admit that her statistics were (gasp!) off (I'm being polite), or if she'll pretend it never happened and move onto the next best thing.

#113: Ariel, If you are looking for someone to defend Yasser Arafat, I'm not your man. The optimistic viewpoint is that putting Abbas in as PM is the start of the end of Arafat's influence. We'll see if it actually happens.

#117 Gordon

Are you aware of any transfers that didn't kill a nation's "soul"? Did America's early crimes against Native Americans kill our soul?

In any case this scheme wouldn't even have to be implemented with all Palestinians. If even a million could be persuaded to leave voluntarily it would cool the situation considerably.

It sure would be nice if Jordan would have a democratic election too while we're at it. The 70% Palestinian majority would quickly prove that Jordan is indeed a homeland for the Palestinians. Maybe we can send Abdullah to Arabia where his family is from and kill the Saudi bird too with the same stone.

In any case there are solutions that do not involve mass murder or soul-selling. To suggest that there are not is false.

Uh oh, Zaza is on my trail again. Do you advocate "transfer" for the Palestinians. Zaza?

#115 Caton

Psychology may not have changed much... but surely our understanding and ability to deal with "problems" has.

Also... my point was not that arabs and Israelis could never be close buddies... my point was that the idea that one could simply occupy the "arab world" for a decade is completly assinine and not based in reality.

Moral equivalency be damned. Jews are better than Muslims.

#96   SoCalJustice
#113  Ariel 

you need to read that again:

 
Two-thirds of Israelis want a halt to Israels practice of "targeted killings" of Palestinian activists, which escalated in recent days, according to a poll published Friday, June 13, as Israeli press blasted Premier Ariel Sharon over the same policy.

The poll, published in the daily Yediot Aharonot, showed that of the two-thirds, 58 percent of those interviewed said the assassinations should be "provisionally suspended" to give new Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmud Abbas time to assert his authority. Nine percent want them stopped altogether.

that's two thirds (67% actually), just like I'd said
http://www.alertnet....

VFI

Regarding your point about an Israeli poll, we do not "take orders" from Jerusalem. We reserve the right to have a different opinion about Israel's security. Don't forget, people who were also concerned about Israel's security felt Arafat could be dealt with. I disagreed then and I was proved right. None of us must parrot an Israeli poll, and if you think we do then let's just say we are the remaining 33% who say kill 'em.

#126 Mr. Bigglesworth

Also... my point was not that arabs and Israelis could never be close buddies... my point was that the idea that one could simply occupy the "arab world" for a decade is completly assinine and not based in reality.

Hmmm. Then why the hell did you bring up the "Japanese are now our closest allies" bullshit in the first place?

#129  James

I'm under no illusions about any connection between LGF opinions and Israeli's attitudes. It might help to remember this however next time someone is shouted down as anti-semetic for disagreeing with IDF actions.

#107 Gordon

That's why I think the roadmap is a 50-year roadmap, and it won't start until all parties recognize it as such.

Do you think a Jewish state in the middle east is viable long term? If so, how?

If Israel withdrew to the 1967 borders the PLO would then insist Israel withdraw to the 1948 borders.
I can see a clear plan being played out.

'Settlements' dismantled, Jew free west bank & gaza, Israel to 1967 borders.
Continued attacks in the 'occupied territories', which are now defined as Israeli possessions outside 1948 borders.
Demographics within 1948 Israel eventually forcing a secular, i.e. not Jewish, state of Israel when 1948 Israel becomes 50% Israeli Arab.
Unification of secular Israel & Palestine.

Is this really unlikely?

By the way, I notice the howling banshee did not come up with a link to back up her wild accusation in #90.

I'm waiting for an apology.

Gordon (#108)

Don't do it, Israel. Don't become a mirror image of your enemies. Then you are truly lost; you may have your land, but you will have lost your souls.

Oh, the drama! I love James' 'Rules for Jews' comment actually. I'm not sure that Gordon is an anti-Semite, but the 'Rules for Jews' is the perfect way to sum up this particular comment of his.

Gordon, why are you constantly looking for cryptic messages? You refuse to take anything at face-value. When Hamas says that they will kill every Jew, men, women and children, why do refuse to believe them?

128 VFI

This can become a semantic debate all day long, but the fact remains that the 58% statistic in that poll are not against the policy of "targeted killings" (only 9% are!). The 58% just want to see if Mahmoud Abbas can do something if the "targeted killings" are provisionally suspended, given time. I don't blame that 58% for wanting to give it a try. To say that 67% of Israelis are against "targeted killings" of Hamas leaders is an incorrect reading of the poll, whether by you, by Reuters or by anyone else who reproduces the poll.

#133   Caton

You know damn well what you said. If I have to go hunt down the comment I will. You were taken to task by others when you said it.

#136

Lying again.

#131 VFI

I agree with you that disagreeing with IDF actions doesn't make one an antisemite. Yet at the same time plenty of people sieze on marginal opinions that an be found in Israel by which to batter Israel and then retreat with the observation that Israeli X agrees with me. I've seen this with pro-Palestinian organizations such as B'Tselem (Israeli) and with various Israel writers.

Does anyone think that Noam Chomsky's "America as the real evil empire" thesis is not anti-American? Of course it is, even if he is as American as George Washington. But people use his opinions on America (and Jews and Israel) as proof that they are not anti-American or antisetmic. "Look, Chomsky is a Jew/ American. I'm just saying what he's saying, so how can I be anti-American/ antisemitic?"

Do you get my point? Criticizing the IDF != antisemitism ipso facto, but neither do marginal Israeli positions give everyone the right to take them and claim this doesn't taint them. There are Israelis who argue for a binational state, which means dismantling Israel. Is dismantling Israel also an acceptable position to take vis a vis Israel?

Gordon #123,

My point in #51 and #55 was not that Arafat's evil (which he is) but 1) that Hamas and Abbas are part of Arafat's strategy and 2) transferring a genocidal population is not evil.

I do prefer the solution that James discusses, where transfer would be encouraged by dollars rather then bayonets. This is actually roughly the Elon Peace Plan, which is the plan by the Moledet party, a "far-right", "extremist" party.

I think that after that solution was implemented, the remaining folks would be the most die-hard and could be bombed into oblivion. But that's just IMO.

SoCalJustice (#135)

...whether by you, by Reuters, by the Irish Examiner
or by anyone else who reproduces the poll.

view from Ireland, I wish you wouldn't be so gullible when it comes to the press.

135  SoCalJustice

what I said:

why does no one consider the 67% of polled Israelis who don't consider the assasination of Hamas leaders a particularly clever policy at the moment?

By anyones reading, that is what the 58% who want that policy suspended and the 9% who want it stopped are saying.

It's not a sematic debate. You disputed the statement, and were shown to be wrong.

VFI #128,

Too bad I came too late to the party. SoCalJustice took you down again. Sorry, but that's not 67% against it - that's 9%, plus 58% willing to Abbas a try.

VFI #131,

Just because you're Jewish doesn't mean you can't be an antisemite. Neturei Karta is proof. As is Chomsky.

Gordon,

Feel free to comment on my query about the state of America's soul or the state of India's soul.

#142  Ariel

Read what i said Ariel. I'm just stating the findings of the poll. The poll may be wildly off, but it might just be accurate as well.

If it is accurate, then you can't really state that the opinion of 67% of Israelis constitutes an anti-semetic opinion.

All academic anyway. It may not be an accurate representation. I was just curious that it didn't seem to impact on the opinions here. It is pretty pertinent to the debate.

#143 James

There won't be any comment. The "think about your souls" bullshit just hides the old "better dead Jews than armed Jews" Nazi statement.

Charles,

“Every Palestinian home?” But how can that be? Doesn’t President Bush keep telling us that it’s “only a few killers” trying to wreck “the peace process?”

The Islamic leader defended Palestinian bombings inside Israel,
arguing that they are inevitable due to Israel's Nazi-like treatment of the Palestinian people.
Silwadi argued that Israel was offering the Palestinians two choices, either brutal death in 'our homes, markets, mosques, farms and streets or brutal death as suicide bombers in the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. . . I challenge Lugar to give us a third choice'.
He said Palestinians had no other means to defend themselves and their children against Israeli brutality.
"Jewish Nazism breeds Palestinian suicide bombings," he added forcefully.

VFI #144,

OK, I'll eat crow. You did qualify your statement with "at the moment" which the poll did as well.

So most of the Israeli polity is willing to give Abbas a chance? I think that just shows how desperate Israelis are for peace, how they're willing to try anything just to be left alone. It's interesting that you can't find examples of palestinians doing anything similar, like for example, protesting against the release of terrorists from Israeli jalis.

#130 Caton

Hmmm. Then why the hell did you bring up the "Japanese are now our closest allies" bullshit in the first place?

To reinforce my contention that the "japanese" as a whole were not the enemy... but rather their leadership and the ideology exposed by them... just as is the case with the "arabs"

In a very broad sense... I can conceede... yes... the "arabs" are the enemy... but seeing as how you can't deal with the arab world as a whole... you're best to direct action against the wellsprings of anti-Israeli sentiment... namely... the regimes of a few choice countrys... the madrassas... etc.

We really are on the same side of this issue I'm just thinking in more practical terms... or attempting to anyway.

#114 lawhawk

What does that mean for you when someone says Israel should pay more attention to not losing Jewish souls than to not losing Jewish lives? See #108 for an example.

To put it simply - Judaism is not a suicide pact. The fundamental reason for Israel being established was because of the Holocaust and the grave injustices wrought upon Jews for simply being Jewish. Protecting the lives of fellow Jews, if it means taking the lives of those sworn to destroy us, would be acceptable. Judaism is a living religion - one that celebrates life - but would find it acceptable to take the lives of those that would enslave you or seek your destruction.

From the Bible, you can read numerous examples of how G-d would work his wonders on the enemies of Israel and/or permit Israel to smite their enemies. There are also examples of Israelis getting whacked for the benefit of a lesson or two. On balance though, the key is that Israel was never denied the right to defend itself from its enemies on a moral or ethical standpoint.

If you look historically, Jewish fighters defended themselves against aggressors and didn't lose any of their 'Jewishness.' Failing to fight meant losing lives - lots of them. Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't lose their Jewishness because they fought back in the uprising against the Nazis. In fact, it brought them a sense of honor and a realization that they could do something against the monumental horrors perpetrated against their fellow Jews.

The question boils down to whether we want to kill terrorists now while you still can or wait until you're so far into the corner that there's practically nothing standing in the way of destruction. Israel has continually made accomodations - in fact and deed - while Palestinians have not - even their words have been twisted and actions show their word to be worthless.

#134 Zulubaby: I believe them. That's why I think Israel is right to smash Hamas. I don't think Israel is right to end the Palestinian "problem" by ending the Palestinians. "Transfer" is a step in that direction.

141 VFI

The 9% are against "targeted killings" of Hamas leaders under any circumstance, not "at the moment." That's an incredibly small percentage.

30% are in favor of continued "targeted killings" under any circumstance, still a minority, but larger than the group against the policy.

The 58% are in favor of provisionally suspending the attacks to see if Mr. Abbas can gain some support. I.E., they are in favor of the targeted killings if it is shown Mr. Abbas cannot gain support.

After your initial post, you said this:

The 'friendship to Israel' displayed here appears a little selective.

Do you still feel that way? That is quite the accusation when we are talking about a very ambivalent and thin majority, based on a small random sampling.

FYI, for all those interested, here are the details behind the poll: The survey, conducted by the Mina Tzemah/Dahaf polling company, questioned a representative sample of 501 Israelis this week and had a margin of error of 4.5 percentage points. (Source: The Guardian)

Hamas starts to feel the heat. Hamas calls timeout. Hamas gets ready for the next round. Israel contradicts everything it has just said about fighting terrorists. Israel lets terrorist leader go instead of killing other terrorist leader. Hamas launches new suicide attacks. Israel responds. Hamas starts to feel the heat. Hamas calls timeout. Etc......

#148 Mr. Bigglesworth

In a very broad sense... I can conceede... yes... the "arabs" are the enemy... but seeing as how you can't deal with the arab world as a whole... you're best to direct action against the wellsprings of anti-Israeli sentiment... namely... the regimes of a few choice countrys... the madrassas... etc.

*Sigh* OK, so the Arabs have been brainwashed in being enemies. They still are the enemy. Again, who else is funding terrorism? Hint: it's not Christian charities.

#143: James. I don't have an easy answer for your questions. As a U.S. citizen I am proud of my nation, but I am also ashamed of our less-than-perfect past regarding Indians and African-Americans. We have, and are continuing to, make amends, which is the right thing to do.

As for India, I'm not sure I see the parallel. The 1947 partition was pretty much agreed to by all the politicians except Gandhi.

#148 Mr. Bigglesworth 6/17/2003 12:25PM PST

Hmm. Lost part of my reply... probably forgot to close a tag... anyway:

We really are on the same side of this issue I'm just thinking in more practical terms... or attempting to anyway.

You are addressing the wrong problem. There is a conflict between the Arab League countries and Israel. The PLO is but a proxy of the Arab League in their fight against Israel. The PLO now has proxies of its own, named Hamas, PFLP, Al-Aqsa...

As long as the Arab League countries keep funding terrorism, inciting anti-Semitism and refusing to deal with the refugee problem that the Arab League created in 1948 and made worse since then, no peace is possible.

"Thinking in practical terms" about the wrong problem is anything but practical.

#154 Gordon

Ten million Hindus and Muslims were booted across the borders. Does India have a soul?

You addressed my point about America but declined to offer your opinion if America lacks a soul.

You know as well as I that we do. So in 100 years Israelis can weep for the Palestinians and they'll be just like us Americans. Full of soul and secure.

Gordon, still waiting.

Geepers #116,

Thanks for the link. Unfortunately, that story seemed to confirm what he said - that Lynch didn't actually need that dramatic rescue and that it was all staged. Argh! I hope that's not true.

#125 Gordon, since you tend to repeat yourself, here goes some of the same:

You want salad with that advocation?
Or chips?

How else may I serve you?

Let's see, you were fishing for a "LGF reader advocates genocide, check!" about Kashmir here, about Kosovo and Bosnia here, just to name two other Gordon-graced threads, you were coming out with phrases like "right on cue" and "can you tell us what your views are so we can establish whether you have Islamophobic lusts or not", you label anyone -phobic or genocidal by mischaracterising posts, you ask the same questions over and over like a spoilt five-year old, you contradict yourself, get historical facts wrong, sap patience and interest from a thread like no one else except your alter ego VFI, you give yourself your own answers by deciding "you're all this and that" rather than reading what people actually write.

Gotta ask again, what are you doing here except trying to fish for "THE" comment you can twist and then throw back at everyone and say, see, see, isn't this horrible hateful paranoid etc. - like you've said already in those above linked posts and many others.

You are on a rather precise trail there, seems obvious. But really, why bother? there's plenty of websites where you can share your ignorance and distortion with more like-minded folks. Ah but no. You gotta continue the above mission badly disguised under pretence of discussion.

I have tons more "respect", relatively speaking, for Hamas and the like than for your kind of hypocrisy. At least they tell their aims like it is.

#155 Caton

There is a conflict between the Arab League countries and Israel. The PLO is but a proxy of the Arab League in their fight against Israel. The PLO now has proxies of its own, named Hamas, PFLP, Al-Aqsa...

As long as the Arab League countries keep funding terrorism, inciting anti-Semitism and refusing to deal with the refugee problem that the Arab League created in 1948 and made worse since then, no peace is possible.

And here you and I come to complete and total agreement... I think actualy half of our debate was misplaced... as I initialy jumped in because you labled Gordon an anti-semite for nothing more than suggesting that broadly painting the entire palestinian society... and I use that term loosely... as demons could lead to "genocide"

I understand the big picture... I understand that the palis are there to serve no other purpose than to be surrogate fighters and sympathy winners for the Mullahs and fanatics of the arab world.

I also understand that things cannot be changed by brute force alone... nor can they be changed by "transfering" the problem to some other geographical location. So... the palis get moved back to Jordan and Egypt... Israel will still be surrounded by enemies... they'll just be a few miles further out.

Not much of an improvement.

I find it so curious that those who are so quick to bring up the term "genocide' when discussing Israel, or to make comparisons to the Nazis, never seem so concerned about the mass murders that occur/occurred in Cambodia, Ruanda, Congo, etc. Gordon, does Chechnya bother you? Have you ever, anywhere, at any time accused the Russians of genocide? Have you even thought about Grozny? Pol Pot? DRC? Do you get upset about what happened to the south vietnamese after 1975? The ongoing mass murder of millions of North Koreans? If not, are we not justified in wondering about the motives for your selective outrage at Israel and finding it at least a bit curious?

The same is true of transfer of populations. Areyou upset that 3 million germans were booted out of Bohemia? If it was justified, why? Is there something about repeatedly starting wars aggression and losing them that forfeits claim to territory? What about Koenigsburg? Do you speak out about Simbabwe?

#160 Mr. Bigglesworth

as I initialy jumped in because you labled Gordon an anti-semite for nothing more than suggesting that broadly painting the entire palestinian society... and I use that term loosely... as demons could lead to "genocide"

Heh. Seems you didn't read the thread, right? Saying that the majority of the Arabs in Yesha support terrorism, according to that disgusting piece of anti-semitic shit, is demonizing them. Not only I disagree with that, but that whole "Arabs are not the enemy" bullshit line is just another way to justify funding Arab terrorist organizations.

I also understand that things cannot be changed by brute force alone... nor can they be changed by "transfering" the problem to some other geographical location. So... the palis get moved back to Jordan and Egypt... Israel will still be surrounded by enemies... they'll just be a few miles further out.

Far enough to make transporting a bomb belt a lot more difficult, and thus reduce significantly the number of dead Jews. If we can get international acceptance for transfer, it's a first towards a solution.

One thing you must remember: transfer means that the Arabs currently in Yesha are integrated back into the Arab League countries they came from instead of being kept in "camps", refused citizenship, and trained as attack dogs against Jews. That is the whole point of transfer.

#157 Ariel; waiting for what? In 123 I answered your last "call for the question." Please refresh my memory as to what other query of yours I must impart my knowledge and opinion upon.

So, the howling banshee still can't back up her accusation, and still won't apologize.

Another sorry piece of shit.

Mr. Bigglesworth #160,

Israel will still be surrounded by enemies... they'll just be a few miles further out.

In 1967, the US military did a study of what the minimum territory they would need in order to be able to defend Israel, given Israel's military assets. The minimum territory included all of the "West Bank", except a small strip in the northeast, all of the Golan, and all of Gaza. The West Bank and the Golan were needed for a variety of reasons:

1) Shorter border then the long border of the 1948 cease-fire lines (aka Aushwitz borders, in the words of Abba Eban, IIRC).
2) Mountainous terrain slows tanks
3) Mountainous terrain good for shooting down Israeli planes from Israeli air bases
4) Provides strategic depth - it's much harder to cut the Israeli army in two if the neck isn't nine miles across, but is a couple hundred.

Gaza was needed basically because it provides a shorter border, which is much more defensible.

When you make your statements about "so what", you do so in contradiction of every law of warfare as well as the opinion of the US military.

I also understand that things cannot be changed by brute force alone... nor can they be changed by "transfering" the problem to some other geographical location

Actually, if there's some cost to supporting terror, it will provide a deterrent to doing so, for Egypt, Jordan, and all of the Arab countries. Terrorism works because we allow it to.

Gordon #163, see #139. Do you accept that Hamas and Abbas are part of Arafat's strategy? Do you accept that transferring a genocidal population is not evil?

#161 Ursuletul Mare

I find it so curious that those who are so quick to bring up the term "genocide' when discussing Israel, or to make comparisons to the Nazis, never seem so concerned about the mass murders that occur/occurred in Cambodia, Ruanda, Congo, etc.

Just yesterday I asked such a person on another board why he doesn't seem to think about Sudan and only Israel. You know what he said?

On Sudan: I, being more accustomed to dissident politics, am more openly critical of actions that the country in which I live partakes in, because I have more of a chance of correcting the problems (formulated and plaguing) HERE, than I do as some foreigner decrying what some removed country is doing-this doesn't mean I support what they do, or don't care, I just largely concern myself with things the U.S. has a hand in. Chomsky, and nigh every other dissident as well.

'Nuff said. Straight from the horse's rear.

#162: Another Caton lie (repeat): the Palestinians aren't indigenous to Palestine but were planted there by Arab conspiracists after World War I.

As usual, the truth is somewhere in between "Palestine was a prosperous Arab province of the Ottoman Empire' (Palestinian version) and "Palestine was a wasteland" (Israeli version). But the truth is messy.

I repeat; Israel can beat the Palestinians and have peace without becoming the mirror image of the Palestinians. And don't give any of that "God let them do it to the Canaanites, so he'll let us do it now" crap. Save that for readers of the Koran.

I'm just trying to understand where your point of view. If there were no Jews involved, how interested would you be in Judea and Samaria? Do you care about, say, the Basque country, Corsican independence, or Transnistrian separatism?

#165 Ariel

"In 1967, the US military did a study of what the minimum territory they would need in order to be able to defend Israel, given Israel's military assets. The minimum territory included all of the "West Bank", except a small strip in the northeast, all of the Golan, and all of Gaza. "

You forgot to mention that the military was ordered to undertake this study by Johnson and instructed not to consider any political calculation. It was meant to be straight up, no BS, what the U.S. military considered defensible borders for Israel.

#168 Antisemitic piece of shit

"Yasser Arafat": born in Cairo from parents born in Cairo. Good example of an indigenous "Palestinian".

James, wow that is a mouthful (of mush). What the hell does it even mean really? Is he saying "I only care about life and death situations when my betters direct me to"?

#168 Antisemitic piece of shit

Oh, by the way -- I'll take care of my soul, and of the lifes of my family. You leave both alone.

#166: No, I do not accept that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are part of Arafat's grand strategy. I believe that they started out independent of Arafat, a reaction to his seeming acceptance of the Oslo accords and the fact that he is a corrupt old barfbag. Since 2000, and perhaps before, he has tried to use them for his own purposes, but I do not believe that he controls them.

I think Arafat is too stupid and corrupt to have a grand strategy. I wouldn't call the path the Palestinian Authority has taken since 1967 to be any kind of a "grand strategy," except perhaps as practiced in a mental institution.

As for Abbas, I don't think he is part of Arafat's grand strategy either. He is a grudging concession by Arafat to world opinion, and Arafat mistrusts him because he sees him as a rival power source.

Whether Abbas in power would be a voice of moderation or not is an open question. I say expel Arafat from the occupied/disputed/Judea-Samaria territories and let's find out.

Gordon, any interest in responding to my questions? .

"And don't give any of that "God let them do it to the Canaanites, so he'll let us do it now" crap. Save that for readers of the Koran. "

Another red herring Gordon. No LGF regular has ever insinuated that.

In fact I seem to be LGF's token Orthodox Jew (seem, anyway) who literally believes in the Torah's revelation at Sinai, and I can tell you unequivocally that it is the consensus of all Halachic authorities (that is rabbinic Torah scholars) that the Torah's directives with regard to the Canaanites applied only to the literal nations named, none of which presently exist, and not to the Palestinians. So there simply isn't this genocidal position in Jewish thought although I imagine a fringe probably exists who would advocate this, as there are always fringes in every society.

#171: That's one. Now how about the other 3,499,999?

#171 Caton: isn't that the same case for what's his name, Said, the writer, Chomsky's pal?

#172

"James, wow that is a mouthful (of mush). What the hell does it even mean really? Is he saying "I only care about life and death situations when my betters direct me to"? "

It sure is. When push came to shove he admitted that he beats up on Israel because by doing this he gets to beat up on the United States but doesn't get to do that in the Sudan so he remains silent on the Sudan, and he offered his opinion that this is why Chomsky and others beat up on Israel.

#177 Anti-Semitic Piece of Shit

Most of the Arabs that were indigenous to "Palestine" stayed, and are now Israeli citizens. Those that left, left because their ties to "Palestine" were not strong. 99% of the "refugees" were not indigenous to "Palestine".

Gordon

"#171: That's one. Now how about the other 3,499,999? "

I think the number of 3,499,999 bears scrutinizing if in fact the George Washington of the Palestinian nation isn't even a Palestinian, don't you?

Besides, surely you know that the UN definition of a Palestinian is a non-Jew that lived in Palestine from 1946 to 1948.

Clearly the number of real indigenous Arabs is not what it seems, although I'm not prepared to give you the real number. I don't know what it is.

As an aside, some of the prominent Palestinian clans have surnames such as "Masri" which means "Egyptian" which certainly call into question the longevity of their ties to the land.

#161: All of those places bother me greatly. But, you'll notice that all of the events you list took place either in pre-1950 Europe or in the Third World.

Israel is a First World nation. For Israel to follow a path trod recently by countries like Cambodia, Rwanda, and Russia/Chechnya would be a sign that we are all a lot closer to savagery in the "civilized" world than we think.

I believe that Israel has a right to defend itself, and live within secure borders. I believe that Israel has a right to strike at the occupied/disputed/Judea-Samaria areas to destroy Palestinians actively seeking to destroy it. I believe that Israel has a right to strike at Arab neighbors who may be developing WMD's.

I don't believe Israel has a right to "transfer" 3.5 million people, or worse.

#178 zaza

isn't that the same case for what's his name, Said, the writer, Chomsky's pal?

It's the same case for most of them. The Israeli-Arabs, those that didn't leave when the Arab League told them to, those have real ties to the land. Tell you what: I'd support deporting Arabs not indigenous from Yesha and establish an Arab state in Yesha for the Israeli-Arabs. They have a valid claim.

#179 James

Now there's a principled stance. I always figured it was something like that...

#180 And what about those that are "indigenous to the West Bank and Gaza - surely they aren't ALL Egyptian plants? Can they stay and become Israeli citizens too?

Gordon #168,

As usual, the truth is somewhere in between "Palestine was a prosperous Arab province of the Ottoman Empire' (Palestinian version) and "Palestine was a wasteland" (Israeli version). But the truth is messy.

Really? Let's see what Mark Twain said:

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] -- not for 30 miles in either direction... One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings. ... For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee ... Nazareth is forlorn ... Jericho lies a moldering ruin ... Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation... untenanted by any living creature... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds ... a silent, mournful expanse ... a desolation ... We never saw a human being on the whole route ... Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil had almost deserted the country ... Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery Palestine must be the prince. The hills barren and dull, the valleys unsightly deserts [inhabited by] swarms of beggars with ghastly sores and malformations. Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes ... desolate and unlovely ...

Perhaps he was lying. Or maybe he was a Zionist. Let's see what the British consul to Jerusalem said in 1857:

The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is of a body of population.

Well, maybe he was a Zionist too. Even though both existed were there before Zionism was a real force. Well, maybe not.

You might note the main finding of Joan Peters - in areas of Jewish settlement, the palestinian Arab population quintupled while in other areas it only doubled. In short, the Arab version has no basis in objective reality; the only rationalization for even mentioning it is that all "narratives" are equal, even when they are manifestly false.

"I don't believe Israel has a right to "transfer" 3.5 million people, or worse."

Not even as a solution to settle a conflict and prevent greater bloodshed?

Please stop throwing out these red herrings. You, Gordon, are the only one suggesting worse. "Worse" doesn't come up on LGF and it doesn't come up in Israeli discourse.

#185

They had this option from 1967 to 1991, numbnuts. They refused.

#186 Ariel

There was a small, indigenous Arab population. Their offsprings are now Israeli citizens.

#183: No, of course they can't be citizens of ISRAEL in your scenario. Is your ultimate goal a religiously pure state?

#183 anti-semitic piece of shit

Did you notice there are about a million Israeli-Arabs? And most of them are Muslims?

Gordon #174,

No, I do not accept that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are part of Arafat's grand strategy. I believe that they started out independent of Arafat, a reaction to his seeming acceptance of the Oslo accords and the fact that he is a corrupt old barfbag.

Given that Hamas started before the Oslo accords in 1988, your position is hard to fathom.

After a violent incident between Fatah and Hamas in 1994, and severe reactions from Israel to Hamas-instigated terrorism, a series of agreements was worked out between Hamas and the PA that solved the problem for both organizations. Arafat and the PA learned to ignore Hamas terrorism in exchange for Hamas refraining from challenging their political leadership of the Palestinians.

So as of 1994, Hamas was co-opted into Arafat's strategy by agreement of both parties.

Since 2000, and perhaps before, he has tried to use them for his own purposes, but I do not believe that he controls them.

Again, please read #51 and consider that Arafat had effectively co-opted them as early as 1994.

I think Arafat is too stupid and corrupt to have a grand strategy. I wouldn't call the path the Palestinian Authority has taken since 1967 to be any kind of a "grand strategy," except perhaps as practiced in a mental institution.

Well, for a mental patient, Arafat has made pretty grand strides, wouldn't you say? He's gained worldwide acceptance and legitimacy, developed a small fortune (at least $300M), and done quite a bit of Jew-killing.

As for Abbas, I don't think he is part of Arafat's grand strategy either. He is a grudging concession by Arafat to world opinion, and Arafat mistrusts him because he sees him as a rival power source.

Is that why Abbas said that the buck stops at Arafat on the live Fox News interview and in many instances since? Why didn't you answer this point instead of stating your position again?

Gordon -

I'm willing to believe you mean well. But don't you realize that your little warnings - and the language you couch them in ("genocide," "bloody transfer of millions," "Canaanites," "lose your soul," etc.) - is offensive and unnecessary?

Would you say to African-Americans - "Be careful what you're saying, because next thing you know you'll be lynching white folks!"? Somehow I doubt it.

Has it occurred to you that we ethnic tend toward hyperbole and passion?

Why do you presume that you have more moral clarity than the rest of us? Who appointed you our conscience?

Caton #189,

Well, yes there were Arabs in Israel before there were Jews. But the Israeli position that Israel was a wasteland before the Jews migrated there is supported by the facts - there were a few Arabs there and that's it. It's not what Gordon alleged - that the truth is between the two "narratives".

#194 Ariel 6/17/2003 01:38PM PST

Well, yes there were Arabs in Israel before there were Jews.

Ah... No. Jewish presence in Israel has been uninterrupted for 2,500 years. Arabs came in the 7th century.

But the Israeli position that Israel was a wasteland before the Jews migrated there is supported by the facts - there were a few Arabs there and that's it.

Hmm. No. There were Jews and Arabs in Israel before the Jewish diaspora started coming back en masse.

It's not what Gordon alleged - that the truth is between the two "narratives".

Bah. Moral relativism. I suspect the anti-semitic piece of shit to be French.

#194 Ariel

I know I'm nit-picking... but "there were Arabs before the Jews came" is exactly the kind of shit that makes be blow a gasket.

In Balestine we coexisted bee-yoo-tifully with tree tousand Jooz with black hats and beards. Dey were de good Jooz and dey were nice dhimmis and we protect them, see? When we massacred dem dey did no blow up shahedeen's homes! You must know dat in Balestine every Balestinian had acres of orange groves! And olive groves! And Turkish villas! See? Here is my rusty key. It is proof.

We await the return to Balestine when we can peacefully throw 5 million Nazi Jooz out of Eez-rah-ale and den we can peacefully coexist with all da good Joowsh dhimmis who lived in Balestine before 1917! Don'ta worry. We promise to take good care of de 200 old Joowsh beeple who qualify to live in free, democratic Balestine, Inshallah!

Gordon, given the emotional heat with which you write on this topic when it concerns Israel, I am a bit perplexed that the conflicts I mentioned, in which tens of millions have died, merely elicit this response: #161: All of those places bother me greatly. But, you'll notice that all of the events you list took place either in pre-1950 Europe or in the Third World.

That seems pretty tepid, if it bothers you greatly. We are talking about tens of millions of humans snuffed out. Is there something less worthy of your attention about millions of vietnamese, cambodian, korean, congolese, ruandan lives? Is it their skin color that lets you be so blase about their deaths?

Do you agree that Russia is not a 3rd world country? Isn't what they are doing in Chechnya is considerably more violent than anything going in Palestine? certainly many tens of thousands more have died in much less time. Spain (Basque), France (Corsica) are all first-world, do you interest yourself in those 'liberation' struggles? Transnistria? Skin color doesn't come in to play here, and they are not 3rd world places,so why the diffidence, compared to the intensity viz. Israel? Can you help me understand why?

Caton #195, #196,

You're right, of course. You knew what I meant. And np about the nit-picking, there's nothing wrong with fixing the facts.

OT: Terrorist attack near the Eyal kibbutz. One adult and two children seriously wounded.

#193: I apologize if I've offended you. When I read some of the extreme crapola that goes out from messages on this site (I'm not talking about Charles, I'm talking about people like Caton) it makes me respond in kind.

I know that it's a sensitive subject to even hint at comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Unlike those on the far left I don't see any comparison now, even from Sharon and Netanyahu. I don't want to see the world's Jewry return to the status of noble martyred victims.

I have little doubt that the majority of the Israeli populace, even with the horrible provocations of the evil suicide bombers, remains firmly committed to Western values. I hope it remains that way.

Caton #200,

Well, we can't let a few terrorists derail us from the Road Map to Treblin...erm peace, right?

Gordon, feel free to argue from the facts in #192 as well.

Follow-up: Terrorist attack was shooting with one or more full-auto weapons from Kalkilya on a car that was taking trans-Israel highway from the route 6. No names yet. One adult lightly wounded, a girl seriously wounded, a boy critically wounded.

BTW -- Eyal kibbutz is near Kohav Yair

Or #186 for that matter, Gordon.

#201 Gordon

Thank you. If your intention was to stick it to Caton because he was brawling with you, please bear in mind that such comments and concerns are also greatly offensive and unfair to the other Jews in the world who are not Caton. It shouldn't be a tactic to spar on the internet, particularly if you want to be taken seriously in these discussions.

#201

Extreme crapola, huh? Care to find a link? Or will you just disappear like the howling banshee just did, you disgusting piece of anti-semitic shit?

#198 Ursuletul Mare:

You make very good points. One conflict you didn't list is ex-Yugoslavia, and I was certainly worked up over that at the time. The hesitancy of NATO, the UN, and the United States to intervene in the face of the evil perpetrated primarily by the Serbs, but also to a lesser extent by Croats, Bosnian Muslims, and Kosovar Albanians was shameful. I have commented in past threads about the Russian campaign in Chechnya, which others on this site have attributed to Radical Islam, but which I attribute primarily to Russian and Soviet imperialism.

You equated Basque and Corsican "liberation struggles" with the Palestinian situation. I don't consider the Palestinian situation a "liberation struggle." I see it as trying to find a way to allow for a secure home in the Holy Land for the State of Israel and a democratic non-violent Palestinian state. The latter is going to be some accomplishment, which will take 50 years or so, in my opinion. Also, by the way, I have no sympathy for Basque terrorists, Corsican terrorists, and other various and sundry crazy European liberation movements.

As for the Third World, one of the reasons I have changed my mind about the U.S invasion of Iraq is the evidence of the humanitarian catastrophe Saddam Hussein visited upon the Iraqi people. Our invasion is justified by this alone even if we never find WMD's or concrete evidence of a close al-qaeda connection.

Follow up: 2 years old girl died at 0:07 am. The second child is a 5 years old girl, seriously wounded.

#207: You're swearing again. Good bye for now.

#208 Gordon

"I don't consider the Palestinian situation a "liberation struggle." I see it as trying to find a way to allow for a secure home in the Holy Land for the State of Israel and a democratic non-violent Palestinian state. "

Just curious, do you really think the Palestinians are struggling for a democratic state? Are there any democrats among the Palestinian leadership? Will Palestine be the 23rd Arab state AND the first Arab democracy? What indicates this?

Sometimes Guysen pisses me off... correction: 2 years old died yesterday at 11:59 pm.

Um James and Caton?

I've been away and just reviewed the thread.

Exactly how many sets of wings does Gordon the fly have?

Because you've been pulling them off all day.

If this was a fight, the ref would've stopped it about 40 posts ago.

Gordon,

Sorry bud, but declaring "it's only a flesh wound, I'll bite you to death" can't save you at this point.

For those who, like Gordon, believe Abbas is a lovely little puppy, I have to quote Taranto from Best of the Web Today:

Ha'aretz reports that Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, has broken off "cease-fire" talks with Hamas. "Palestinian sources said the Abbas-Hamas meeting was canceled because the prime minister wants to reach an understanding on a cease-fire with his own Fatah faction before trying to do the same with Hamas leaders. He met with Fatah leaders in Gaza for two hours last night for this purpose, but did not achieve any concrete results."

Can this guy really pacify his population if he can't even reach a ceasefire with himself?

#85 Caton

Please take this as a word from somebody who admires your guts, determination and intelligence.

S . l . o . w down!

Remember, a vast majority of those who post here are on your side. Attacking them will garner you no supprt. Most of those who address you and your points are not of necessity anti-semitic. I consider the way that gets thrown around here sometimes to be like how the troll tag gets thrown around.

Not everybody here is Jewish, something I know you know full well. That means that not all of their views will coincide with yours or a Jewish point of view.

That is not anti-semitism. You are much smarter than to use that easy label. Using it frees you from addressing the individual or their points.

#90 view from Ireland

Why must you instigate? Most who have fought through your useless crap posing as reasoned opinions have no use for you or your fertilizer. Now you want to bait some one who obviously wants nothing to do with you. Either say something intelligent (I'm still waiting for that despite your pollution on so many threads) or just go away.

#94 Gordon

Posession is 9/10s of the law, at least here. Who possesses the land? Israel. As far as I'm concerned they have a right to boot anybody off their land that they choose. It matters very little where the ficticious "Palestinians" go, just so long as they go. A large number of them will still be getting their right to return anyway - return to Egypt, Jordan, etc.

#108 Gordon

Fortunately for all of us, commentors on LGF don't make Israeli policy hmmmmm?

#113 Ariel

Try InstaPundit. Glen Reynolds had plenty of links regarding that.

#118 Gordon, member of Caton's Shit List

Caton was addressing the Steaming Pile from the Emerald Isle.

#125 Gordon, hopelessly ignorant apologist

Why the scare/sneer quotes around transfer Gordon? Why not say what you really mean if you think transfer really means something else?

#150 Gordon

Transfer ≠ death, genocide

#190

No, of course they can't be citizens of ISRAEL in your scenario. Is your ultimate goal a religiously pure state?

Whoa... Feel that toxic seething coming right off the screen...

Be more careful, Gordon. You've got to take this PR course at the Rome mosque, I hear it works wonders for young inexperienced pups like you.

AS well as a history course, if anything so that you will be able to disguise your ignorance and lies even better.

You've got a long way to go before you become a professional hater. /bleh

Re Abbas.

The elephant in the living room that the pro-Abbas contingent continually ignores is that Arafat appointed Abbas. I will grant that in all likelihood his appointing a prime minister was coerced. I can accept that he really did not want to confer the title of prime minister onto someone but was pressured to do so.

But he appointed his deputy. Abbas is a prominent PLO man.

It would be one thing if some wealthy Palestinian dude who has been living in Dearborn, Michigan for the past 35 years who has not been a member of the PLO, maybe a guy who is intelligent and educated with leadership qualities, someone who's donated to Palestinian hospitals or something was appointed by Arafat. Then you could make the case that this guy is a Palestinian Hamid Karzai or something and that the appointment might be meaningful.

I fail to see how anyone banks anything on Abbas, Arafat's deputy and fiancier of the Muncih Massacre. Is Abbas moderate because sometimes he winks and nods and hints that perhaps he might be moderate?

#215 NTropy

OK, so I had a bad day. OTOH, throwing the "genocide" word in every thread about Israel's right to defend itself is anti-semitism. That's the only label that applies. And I'd rather deal with openly anti-semitic bastards than with the Gordon/VFI sly pieces of shit.

Concerning just who the Arab refugees posing as wannabe Palestinians are:

http://www.eretzyisr...

#190 Gordon

Yeah sure, that's the point. Might as well tell the ten or so perceent in the Israeli government that too.

I think Arafat is too stupid and corrupt to have a grand strategy.

"Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

   - Yasser Arafat, on Jordanian TV in 1993
      http://www.worldnetd...
 

Gordon, #161: All of those places bother me greatly. But, you'll notice that all of the events you list took place either in pre-1950 Europe or in the Third World.

So permit me to extract the principles that seem to underlie your thoughts and posit conclusions.

1). As long as an act of agression took place over 50 years ago, we need not speak against it. Conclusion: If Israel can just hang on to Judea and Samaria a few more decades, you will at that point no longer be so enervated by it.

2) As long as the victims of mass murder have brown or yellow skins, it need not be an issue. Conclusion: If we can establish the palestinian Arabs are actually African, you will lose interest in the matter.

3) Mass expulsion of the Germans after WW2 from Bohemia, Koenigsburg, Poland was ok, since Germany started several wars of aggression and lost. Conclusion: Transfer of the Arabs from Judea and Samaria is wrong because the Arabs started several wars of aggression and lost.

#215   NTropy

#90 view from Ireland

Why must you instigate? Most who have fought through your useless crap posing as reasoned opinions have no use for you or your fertilizer. Now you want to bait some one who obviously wants nothing to do with you. Either say something intelligent (I'm still waiting for that despite your pollution on so many threads) or just go away.

Thanks for your thoughts. Caton made the genocide comment, and unless you'd rather I supressed that memory, I think it has a bearing on Gordon's question in #84. I can't find the original comment. Possibly it was erased by Charles, possibly I just can't find it, but this is taken from a subsequent posting:

me - you didn't advoce genocide as the inevitable solution to the 'Islamic problem'?

caton - Can any Irish person tell me how come your education system does not teach the difference between advocate and predict?

http://littlegreenfo...

The point being his quibble was whether or not he actively advocated the genocide of muslims, rather than the inevitability of such such genocide. He has suggested elsewhere that the solution to the palestinian problem involves the death of thousands of palestinians to convey a clear message. I'm still clear enough on where he is coming from.

If you can't manage to see any intelligence in my postings then you have my sympathy. I won't be leaving you just because you can't pick up on the validity of an opposing viewpoint. Have a nice day.

From #201 - Gordon's comment:

I don't want to see the world's Jewry return to the status of noble martyred victims.

If that's your intention, then start applying all due pressure on the terrorist states (Syria, SA, Egypt, Lebanon) and those that enable the terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hizbullah.

Israel has a right to defend itself and its citizens.

As from your earlier comment, #166 IIRC:

No, I do not accept that Hamas and Islamic Jihad are part of Arafat's grand strategy. I believe that they started out independent of Arafat, a reaction to his seeming acceptance of the Oslo accords and the fact that he is a corrupt old barfbag. Since 2000, and perhaps before, he has tried to use them for his own purposes, but I do not believe that he controls them.

I think Arafat is too stupid and corrupt to have a grand strategy. I wouldn't call the path the Palestinian Authority has taken since 1967 to be any kind of a "grand strategy," except perhaps as practiced in a mental institution.

Your view of Arafat is a minority one at best. Nearly all Middle East experts would consider Arafat to be a true survivor and shrewd enough to manage to stay in power despite overwhelming odds and continuous decisions that go against the moral and ethically correct thing to do.

One must start with the following position with Arafat - that he is a survivor and will do absolutely anything to maintain his position within the PLO as head of Fatah. He's done so since the organization was founded. Considering all the carnage around him, it's astounding that anyone wants to be close to him politically. His decisions to permit Abbas to take the PM role was his alone - don't let anyone fool you. That decision permits him to continue having a say and pull strings behind the scenes. If Arafat thought it necessary to pull the rug out from under Abbas, he could do it - since he has the backing of Fatah (the main PA faction).

Arafat has made so many deals with the devil that you could arguably confuse the two. He's managed to avoid being nailed by the US (following the US problems in Lebanon - where the US was a peacekeeping force determined to bring peace to where Arafat's PLO destabilized the country), Israel (where the effects are clearly shown), Jordan (where King Hussein nearly whacked the entire PLO in 1970's Black September), and in Tunesia where they all but kicked him out because he was such a pariah.

Yet, he's continued to linger like a festering wound. He's an infectious disease, and I wish that the IDF were the cure. However, the only cure is if the EU and the other enablers (UN, France, Russia, and even the US) finally and totally cut off Fatah and the PLO from dealings with Israel. I know that's not going to happen as the US has recognized the PA as the offical representative of the Palestinian people, but that doesn't mean that the US can't change its mind.

Israel should take complete control of all "Palestinian" areas. Of course by "control" I mean democracy, freedom, human rights, peace, free-trade, and religious and ethnic tolerancee.

#223

So the howling banshee's accusation is that she didn't understand what I was saying, and now it appears she doesn't understand who I was talking about either.

And that's what Eurotrash calls "facts".

Caton: ah but you're guilty of "swearing" wooo, don't you know it's ver-bo-ten by the morality police here (heil! *raises arm in fascist salute*) which only works tirelessly to uphold high standards of historical accuracy and truthfulness and supreme honesty in debates!

Too bad the multiple searches on this site don't really work for some odd reason (actually, why?), cos if you searched for Gordon+genocide or VFI+genocide you'd get 2,300 hits... Gordon+Islamophobia(?), you'd crash Charles's server... VFI+intelligence, 0.

Anyone still taking Genocide-Gordon seriously, well, in the words of Fatimah:

As for Gordo, I strongly suspect he's just here to yank people's chains in order to provoke some reaction. And even if he were serious (I hope not!) he's the kind of person whom arguing with is like beating one's head against a brick wall. No matter how many facts you bring, he'll ignore them all and is thus not worth wasting time on. (Mind, I say this because I scroll past him; if I really thought he was serious, I'd be upset too!)

---------

Anyway, re: the Israeli-Arabs and Muslims, I was wondering, how many mosques there are inside Israel already?

... and just to make it clearer: Fatimah (aka Disaffected Muslim) is, doh, Muslim, Susan has a Muslim son and daugther in law and nieces and nephews, and Genocide-Gordon was still fishing for some kind of oh shock horror genocide-advocacy from them!

Enough said.

#227 zaza

Hmm. OK, so I swear a lot in English. I spent too much time in NYC I guess. I blame the U.S.! the howling banshee will like that.

Anyway -- don't you think it's really funny how the LLL everywhere wants to extend the already fallacious concept of "race" to cover Muslims? Next thing you know, there will be a "genocide of terrorists", just wait and they'll become a "race", and be an "oppressed" and "colonized" one, too.

Finally, there are already too many mosques in Israel.

Tell me this isn't the face of pure evil.

Gives me the creeps.

#229 Caton: LOL! good, see how easy it is to make progress, you're blaming Amerikkkans, that's fantastic! you're on the way to being loooved by the morality police ;-)

I swear like a t... no, can't say that or the ethnic morality police will be after me, let's say, I swear a lot too, but only when speaking. It just doesn't come as natural when writing.

I sure don't mind it. When something smells, looks, talks like shit, you can't call it a rosebud. It would be inappropriate.

Anyway -- don't you think it's really funny how the LLL everywhere wants to extend the already fallacious concept of "race" to cover Muslims? Next thing you know, there will be a "genocide of terrorists", just wait and they'll become a "race", and be an "oppressed" and "colonized" one, too.

I thought that already started to happen sometime in the seventies, or so I heard...

Finally, there are already too many mosques in Israel.

Hm, I figured that... More than the synagogues in Saudi Arabia, I guess?

#231 zaza

Yep, there are more mosques in Israel than synagogues in Mecca... But the real problem is that Israel got too many of the wrong kind of mosques -- those that incite anti-semitism, hate, murder and terrorism.

#230 zulubaby: eugh... looks familiar too... separated at birth?

#229: Oh no! Too many mosques in Israel! 'Transfer" them out, now!

Several people on this thread have commented that Abbas says "Arafat is in charge." Well, what do you expect him to say, "I'm in charge and Arafat is old news?"

Gordon,

Pending responses: #186, #192, #214.

Gordon #235,

Maybe I don't expect Abbas to say that Arafat is done and over with, but it's hard to call it a leadership change (let alone a democratically elected leadership uncompromised by terror, as the Road Map stipulates) when:

1) Abbas says that the buck stops at Arafat
2) Arab states have a tradition of having powerless PMs and powerful Presidents (e.g. Syria)
3) Arafat controls most of the "security" forcs
4) Arafat makes all of the decisions regarding negotiations - according to Abbas
5) Arafat appointed Abbas

Gordon

"Several people on this thread have commented that Abbas says "Arafat is in charge." Well, what do you expect him to say, "I'm in charge and Arafat is old news?"

Give me a break. If we're to believe that Abbas was the result of a "peaceful regime change" as the State Department described it, and that he has any independent power of Arafat then he would not say that Arafat is in charge. It doesn't necessarily mean he'd say "I'm in charge and Arafat is old news" as you put it, but he would not say Arafat is in charge.

#234

You antisemitic piece of shit, can't you "transfer" your sorry ass and the quran stuck in it to another place?

My dear Caton; you're getting nasty again. Hatred eats away your insides quickly; better get some therapy.

#232 Caton:

Yep, there are more mosques in Israel than synagogues in Mecca... But the real problem is that Israel got too many of the wrong kind of mosques -- those that incite anti-semitism, hate, murder and terrorism.

Oh why does that sound familiar... I guess all the non-wrong kind mosques went out of business after the whole wahabi & Muslim Brotherhood revival started.

Is there any political proposals about it in Israel, or is all the focus on the incitement coming from outside?

#240 zaza

Well... any attempt at addressing incitement is opposed by Genocide Gordons... In the end, nothing is done.