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The government issued a statement Tuesday saying the pro-Nazi Romanian regime "was guilty of grave war crimes, pogroms, and mass deportations of Romanian Jews to territories occupied or controlled by the Romanian army" from 1940 to 1944.
It employed "methods of discrimination and extermination, which are part of the Holocaust," the statement added.
The government said Prime Minister Adrian Nastase and his Cabinet consistently condemned the wartime persecution and killing of Jews, but did not explain why it changed its view since Friday, when it claimed that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust."
replies: 72 comments
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I guess this is just a case where the meaning of "no" is unclear. As in, there "was a Holocaust" vs there "was no Holocaust". Sort of a Gordon-ism in terms of vacillation, if you will. Not quite as bad as a VFI-ism, in their defense.
From JPost: " The government said Prime Minister Adrian Nastase and his Cabinet consistently had condemned the wartime persecution and killing of Jews, but did it not explain why it changed its view since Friday, when it claimed that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust." "
Romania acknowledges Holocaust role
They did tell the truth. There was no death camp in Romania, and they acknowledge the deportations and the pogroms. That's more honest than France, who still says it's Vichy, or Germany, still hiding behind the "we didn't know" lie.
Ariel's almost right. The concentration camps of Antonescu were outside Romania. They didn't lie -- but it was a VFI-ism. Today they acknowledge the pogroms and the mass deportations as "war crimes" "part of the Holocaust". That's a very big step to take...
Israel has agreed to an American demand not to kill terrorists in areas that are transferred to Palestinian Authority control, diplomatic sources said on Tuesday.
In talks with US National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in Washington, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's bureau chief, Dov Weisglass, also said Israel would not retaliate against terrorist attacks from areas under PA control, as long as the PA makes a serious effort to stop attacks from taking place.
[...]
Israel would retain the right to fight terrorism by targeted killings and military retaliation in areas under its control [...]
if Israeli intelligence learns of an impending terrorist attack coming from a PA-controlled area, Israel will tell the PA to take care of it and also inform the Americans. If the PA acts to stop the attack, Israel will not retaliate. Only if the PA fails to make an effort would the IDF be free to respond.
[...] "This administration will not work on two paths of violence in the morning and negotiations in the afternoon," Shalom said.
"the PA to take care of it"
- Yeah right!
Apparently the new policy will come to effect when Israel hands over parts of northern Gaza to Arab security "control".
OK, I needed to check the history of the Holocaust... and dead-tree sources are slow.
The official Antonescu line was that the Jews were deported to the newly-conquered territories that were part of the Soviet Union. The concentration & death camps were outside Romania, in USSR territory. Most Romanians believed the lie during the war.
After WWII, and except for the DDR, the Commie whitewashing machine ran in all puppet states, saying how bad the Nazis were, but not the Romanians, Magyars, Poles, and so on. All that to better whitewash the anti-semitism of the USSR itself. So the lie that the Romanian Jews were not happy citizens of the USSR was never challenged.
For the Romanian government to now say the truth publicly, after one last attempt at whitewashing Romanian history, is a good thing. But a little late.
Yep, that's the reason they now acknowledge their history. But hey, as long as they finally own up to it, I don't care. I still see this as a positive step.
# 12 Zulubaby: Yeah, unfortunately I didn't notice that before my post. Charles's link was not to the JPost site, so I assumed that what he had quoted was different from what I wanted to post. Oh well, I should try to be more attentive. ;)
The government ...... did not explain why it changed its view since Friday, when it claimed that "within the borders of Romania between 1940 and 1945 there was no Holocaust."
Is this the power of the blogosphere again. In times gone by, ordinary people across the globe would never have seen the original quote in the Liberal press, so just maybe........
Les liens entre la Roumanie et la France sont pluriséculaires. Sur le plan culturel, la diffusion de la langue française en Roumanie remonte au XVIIIème siècle, alors que les principautés roumaines de Valachie et de Moldavie se trouvaient encore sous domination ottomane que les fils des grandes familles roumaines venaient faire leurs études à Paris. La France a, au cours des siècles, accueilli de nombreux intellectuels, chercheurs, artistes d'origine roumaine: Cioran, Brancusi, Eliade, Ionesco, Anna de Noailles, Enesco...
Les relations politiques entre la France et la Roumanie sont également anciennes, qui prennent leur origine dans le rôle joué par Napoléon III pour la création du jeune Etat roumain sur la scène européenne au XIXème siècle, puis dans l'aide apportée par la France à l'édification de ce nouvel Etat. La Première Guerre Mondiale a fait naître une fraternité d'arme durable. Sous le régime communiste, des liens se sont maintenus (visite du Général de Gaulle en Roumanie en 1968) et les événements de la fin 1989 ont permis les retrouvailles du peuple français avec le peuple roumain
http://www.diplomati...
A last gasp (hopefully) of the "traditional" European anti-semitism out of Romania - the government was clearly shamed into acknowledging the truth.
Now for the newer forms of anti-semitism, first, of course, the vile Arab variety which Charles has so ably documented. It is obviously alive and flourishing.
And the new anti-Israel left-wing anti-semitism (although most lefties would deny hating Jews per se). I think it took a dent with 9/11, but it remains strong. Charles is doing a good job exposing this cancerous sore to the light as well.
And, Ariel (#2): No fair with the thread-jumping insults!
#23: I don't know a lick of French, but I assume the passage you have posted talks about the close cultural bonds, especially pre-World War II, between France and Romania. I assume that there were strategic bonds and alliances as well. Also, didn't DeGaulle court Caucescu in the late 1960's in the last big French attempt to thumb its nose at U.S. dominance of the post World War II world?
It doesn't matter to the victims whether they were transported across borders or not during the Holocaust. What does matter is that many people in the occupied territories were, if anything, even more enthusiastic than the Germans in their efforts to get rid of Jews and others they considered undesirable
Edmund--I think you just scooped tomorrow's "Daily Dish."
You know, if the mullahs do fall anytime soon, the one and only bad thing about it will be the inane attempts afterward to somehow attribute it to the blogosphere.
Unspeakable mass murders/pogroms were performed in the ww2 period ON romanian soil as well. CHeck the previous thread . . .
Anyhow, it's a measure of how poorly off romania is that the 'shitty little country' can get it to retract, but I'll bet the USA was behind it as well, at least, I hope so.
#3 AG in Houston 6/17/2003 04:10PM PST
If they wait another 10 years, all survivors of the Holocaust will be dead and then they can deny away.
Not bloody likely - http://www.vhf.org/ I worked at this organization for a time, and their efforts to interview, record, coalate, educate and prosecute will be a cornerstone of preventing such historical revisionism for the rest of the digital future.
What Romania did during the Second World War was terrible but...for its sins, it was saddled with Ceaucescu. It may be that in getting free of THAT evil, the Romanians have come to realize that it is important to be honest and so over the weekend, some of the wiser heads may have prevailed and pointed out that its better to tell the truth than hide behind a veil of half-truths.
I'd like to THINK that's why they changed their minds, anyway.
#15 The Viking 6/17/2003 04:29PM PST
...Apparently the new policy will come to effect when Israel hands over parts of northern Gaza to Arab security "control".
I thought they were already doing that - 'Here's a forearm, here's a foot, here's a ...'
Targeted Assassination should CONTINUE, well past the point where terrorist orgs like Hamas cry, "Ammu! Ammu!"
The Romanian army joined in Hitler's invasion of the USSR and was rewarded with the return of Bukovina and Bassarabia (stolen by Stalin in 1940) and the occupation of a part of southwestern Ukraine. The murder of between 200,000 and 300,000 Jews was carried out by Romanian soldiers and police in these areas. So, in a manner of speaking, there was no Holocaust within the current borders of Rumania (anti-semitic laws and pogroms during the late 30s and early 40s apparently don't count). General Antonescu was executed in 1946 as a war criminal but in 1991, on the 45th anniversary his death, the Romanian parliament rose to observe a minute of silence.
The problem is that the borders in the Balkans changed a lot during WWII. Some sources lsit 550,000 Hungarian Jews as vcitims of the Nazis and their fascist collaborators, others say only 200,000 Hungarian Jews. This discrepancy was due to the fact that the Agreement of Vienna of 1940, vast tracts of Rumania were returned to Hungary and hundreds of thousands of formerly Rumanina Jews now became Hungarian Jews.
To back up my "bizarre" theory that you're more disingenious then Gordon? Pick a random thread where the two of you have commented, particularly one about Israel. While you're completely incapable of admitting you were ever wrong (e.g. terrorism is solved through negotiation in most instances despite the veritable plethora of counter-examples I provided), Gordon just kind of sidles by the times when he was wrong and re-states his position with some editing for factual accuracy (e.g. the thread this morning - last night for you).
So the Romanians basically edited their statement for factual accuracy without admitting that there was anything wrong in the first place. You, if you were in charge of Romania, would have just continued saying what you had said before.
Don't feel bad or anything. I'm not insulting you, just remarking on your behavior. In French, there's a great word which I don't know how to spell, "je constate", which has a meaning of roughly "I draw the conclusion from the behavior". It's really a great word and one that doesn't really have an English analogue. In short, I constate that you have an incapability to note when you were wrong.
Here's one that I think explains what anti-Americanism is really about:
Throughout history, whatever country was on top (Rome, the British Empire) has been disliked by others. Much of the criticism of the US is coloured by this factor. We should try to differentiate between what are simply inferiority complexes and what are legitimate criticisms.
George Yiannakou, Cyprus
Liberty schmiberty. There is a con-artist woven into every thread of the fabric of American society. Banks, the government, employers, and insurance companies pursue everyone's purse from birth to death. No wonder this culture is so hollow and the people so broken. The entities that demand our servitude are crushing us. S.U.V.s, guns, and plastic surgery. Mentally ill indigents living on the sidewalks in their own urine. What is that stench? I reckon it's the smell of greed. Fred Martich, USA
The BBC quiz has a question about the origion of the dollar. I've just completed "Measuring America" by A. Linklater. His book suggests that the Spanish dollar is more likely the route of the present dollar.
Using the Romanian Government's logic, could not Germany also deny the existence of the Holocaust within its borders?
They are playing games with words as usual. You can be sure that this "climb-down" by the Romanian Government was pure political expediency.
Anotonescu remains a national hero and the most virulent anti-semite in Europe ,Corneliu Vadim Tudor (head of the ultra-right wing Greater Romania Party), is still the second most popular politican in Romania.
Romania is in fact a traditional ally of France. The ties between the countries are deep and Romania has historically always looked to France. Romania, as a Latin outpost in Eastern Europe, has been viewed by France as a natural ally which France has and continues to culture (as with Moldova). For instance, the Romanian/Moldovan flags are exactly the French Tricolor, but with yellow replacing the White. Romanian intellectuals have always gone to paris to work (Brancusi, etc). Today, French has always been the first foreign language taught there. France heavily subsidizes television and movies to Romania/Moldova. Moldovans were always the French specialists in the Soviet Bloc. There is probably no country which has historically had greater influence there than France (granted, Caton, to the French, Romania may mean shit, but to the Romanians/Moldovans, France has always been numero uno).
Over half of the Romainian Jewish population of 750,000 were slaughtered during the Nazi terror.
Richard Wurbrand, in his book Tortured For Christ gives a first-hand account of this. Interestingly, Wurmbrand thanked God for the Nazis; they prepared the christians in his congregation for the greater suffering that was to come with the Russian occupation in August of 1944.
Okay so they didn't outright lie, but they were certainly less than honest. They participated in the mass-murder of Jews known as the Holocaust but managed to snake around the truth well enough, for long enough. The comparison to view from Ireland's sly style and compulsive hair-splitting is appropriate.
For the Romanian government to now say the truth publicly, after one last attempt at whitewashing Romanian history, is a good thing. But a little late.
You're far more generous than I am. They were forced to cut the crap or they'd still be mashing words. Screw them.
Repka, I joined the thread late, saw your question in 4 and jumped to answer it. Anywho, hope it helps confirm what you found out. My wife's mother translated French movies and books. For decades it was the main, if not only, source of outside info. Romania is a country of Francophiles.
Paul 35
That's about how I undertand it too. My wife's grandmother lived in northern Moldova/Bukovina and remembers seeing the convoys on the way thru to Transnistria. Like the Germans, the Romanians put the death camps outside the country's historical borders. Of course, the myth falls apart because at the time Transnistria was part of (annexed Greater) Romania. It isn't today, and that's the basis for their careful wording. If you read Romanian go to today's Evenimentul Zile for an eye-opening forum on the topic.
FYI, if youre interested, Romanian is very close to french, it is actually very well preserved late-latin (with some slavic words added). Gramatically it is closest of all the latin languages to Latin, still has the cases and so on, so it is fairly easy for Romanian speakers to pick up French.
Repka, anytime. Ya know, one more thing they have in common, the Romanians, especially the Bucuresteni are insufferably arrogant, in my experience even more so than the Frogs. Apparently, civilization reached its apogee with them.
Documents uncovered by Holocaust historian Jean Ancel reveal the direct involvement of the Romanian Government in the extermination of Jews during the war.
The documents reveal that Romania was the single ally of Germany that had its own plan in place for the extermination of Jews, using its own army for this purpose.
He goes on to present evidence that the Romanian's were more barbaric and wild than the Germans. In fact the Germans had to ask the Romanians to slow down the slaughter as they could not keep up with the numbers - record keeping was a Nazi obsession.
Yad Vashem published Jean Ancel's book in two volumes on this subject.
Romanian's continue to whitewash their abominable history.
And when boat loads of Jews tried escaping the slaughter in Europe by sailing to Canada and appealing to us to take them in.....to save them from the European butchers........the fucking prime Minister of the day said , "none shall enter Canada. One is too many. Send them back".
We did, they died and there was no Holocaust within these borders either.
The ROmanian treatment of the Gypsies (Sinti, Romi) is abominable, even to this day. The plight of the Sinti is one of the tragaedies that the bleeding hearts worried about whether Arabfat has clean diapers in his compound never seem to get around to caring about.
If anyone is still reading this thread and can understand French or studied latin,you will understand enough of this link to see what moderm Romania thinks of the Jews (JIdan, Ovrei mean 'kike')
Repka, Caton
by complete coincidence, I came across this article on the cultural ties between romania and france in today's Romania Libera (it's in romanian, but if you know french you should be able to understand much of it)
RSS (Full)
frank says:
