donate
Help keep Little Green Footballs bouncing by donating whatever you can. (And thank you for your support!) Donate with AmazonDonate with PayPal
To mail a donation directly,
and we'll reply with our PO Box address. Click here for LGF T-shirts.
lgf army
Executive Editor:
Charles Johnson
West Coast Editor:
Michael Johnson
Software Design:
Charles Johnson
Executive Assistant:
Leah Chana
Research:
Nancy Block
Fact Checking:
Thousands of Lizardoids
Janitorial Engineer:
Stinky Beaumont
Web Hosting: Hosting Matters
colophon
Everything you see in this weblog was developed and programmed by Charles Johnson,
including but not limited to the slideshows, polls, user preferences, contact form,
referrer list, daily/monthly statistics, site search, news search tools, link management system, random Zappa quote,
and last but not least, the weblog system itself, which includes a full commenting system with a recent comments list,
automatic archiving, RSS generation for syndication, an email-an-article feature, and a whole bunch of editing and
administration features behind the scenes.
previous entry:
House Votes Overwhelmingly in Favor of Israel
replies: 220 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, although obscene or abusive remarks may be deleted.
Opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
Why does our government think these people deserve
a state?
Is this suppose to civilize them? Judging from those
pictures it will take a few hundred years to civilize
that kind of demented near fiendish behavior.
The car swarm is beginning to be a more common occurrence than the parade of hooded terrorists with bomb belts and A.K.s. Good job IDF, IAF and Sharon. And keep it up, the good guys are winning
"Perhaps they are just looking for a tasty snack."
In October, 2000, Two IDF soldiers were lynched in Arafat's kingdom of Ramallah------"Religion of Peace" actiivists were shown with brains and livers in their hands, and bloody mouths and faces----after chewing on the Israeli body parts for the cameras.
Would you sign a "treaty" with people who had blood on their mouths"----or those who sent them??
Oh, I get it -- the kiddies are looking for some special item for Show & Tell in school. Plus, there's extra credit if they can identify the organ they brought.
Israeli "yes" sattelite TV is being broadcast there too and they have pirated codes from the internet so they don't pay & can get the home cinema channels.
It's good that now the porn channels are coming back,
maybe that'll pacify them.
(all part of our zionist conspiracy of course, in order to corrupt the minds of the true believers MWAHAHAHAH)
You know, as often as Charles posts these pictures, I still always wonder - WHAT the heck is going on here? I mean, is there some kind of psychological explanation? Are they amazed at the result of offensive technology they don't possess? Is it a massive initiation thing as part of their culture, where they MUST visit the car up close to be one with their people? Do they have to smell and touch the blood to prove that a person died and that he wan't abducted by aliens?
In October, 2000, Two IDF soldiers were lynched in Arafat's kingdom of Ramallah------"Religion of Peace" actiivists were shown with brains and livers in their hands, and bloody mouths and faces----after chewing on the Israeli body parts for the cameras.
Kill them. Kill them all. If the other arabs get upset, kill them too. Unethical... f*ck that, having beasts like this run around free, killing jews, that's what's unethical. These people are nothing but a bunch of rabid dogs... and you don't negotiate with rabid dogs in hope of pacifying them. You just shoot them.
Hord mentality in it's finest. This people(?) show us the nature and character that developes under the "divine guidance" of Islam and Arab dictatorship.
Do you think that when the Eurowheeeeeeenis see this pictures they think that way? Noooo Waaay, they must be swearing at the Bloody Zionist that did such an awfull thing to the pooooor palestiniannnnssss.
Please note; The Vampires in the photographs are the "innocent children" that the U.N., E.U. and CNN like to speak about every time they have the chance.
Rantisi. appears to have some sort of Peripheral Vascular Disease.
Chronic venous insufficiency? I wonder if he is prone to venous stasis ulcers?
Could be the result of a DVT? (deep vein thrombosis)
Possible thrombophlebitis?
Severe edema on that left foot...Is he Diabetic"
Notice he is keeping it elevated.
Unlikely, that the swelling is related to Congestive Heart Failure, The right foot is not edematous, and his hands or fingers do not appear to be swollen. Although is color is not the healthiest in appearance.
Also, unlikely that the swelling is related to some localized injury...the foot and the toes are too uniformly edematous.
BTW: these are just some speculatory guesses, based on my experience, as to the medical causes for the swelling of his left foot...
I would like to understand that too. Today, for instance, I walking home from work and thinking about the peculiar Pal customs when an ambulance passed by. People turned their heads and stared. A couple of blocks further I saw what apparently was a scene of an accident with an ambulance parked and police officers doing their job. Again, people turned their heads and slowed down. I slowed down too and almost missed the light. Basically I want to point out 3 things:
1. Professionals taking care of the casualties. This kind of occupations should, in theory at least, exist in every society.
2. We have things to do, places to go. No time to stand around an gaze.
3. A kind of shame is associated with morbid curiosity so that bystanders are unlikely to stand around and gaze.
I guess to truly understand the unique Pal culture, somebody needs to play an anthropologist. Live in the community, meet people, talk to them, etc. What are the chances of that happening? None.
The world hasn't seen such a horde of ghouls since the Aztecs (whose "religion" included ritual human sacrifice & cannibalism). Fortunately the Conquistadors put an end to the Cannibals of Western Hemisphere. Even the Nazis, bestial as they were, were not as gruesome as these things (I cannot bring myself to refer to them as "people" or "humans").
To continue on my post #26... which was more anger than analysis... I do have to wonder if there is any "cure" to a people this sick and twisted. And what is the responsibility of those unfortunate enough to have them as next-door neighbours.
How much should the civilized world tolerate from the bloodthirsty loonies and how many chances should they be given before more drastic means are taken? Should there be an attempt to cure them by force, a cultural re-programming of some kind? At what point does it become acceptable to just wipe them out? Looking at the scenes of their blood fetish and reading of how they celebrate "heroes" who cut open jews and eat their brains and livers... I simply cannot see expulsion into Jordan as an acceptable solution. To believe that they would give up their culture of blood, death and anti-semitism and cease to be a threat is frankly quite naive.
For all the Euroweenie complaining over Sharon's "hard-line" (as if) policies... the true crime of Israel is letting these animals walk free in west bank and gaza. I won't even call them savages for that would be an insult to all the native savages of today and the past in Africa and North America... the palestinians are something worse... simply evil.
SECRETARY POWELL: Let me answer the question this way. What has this kind of resistance achieved for Palestinian people, whether you describe it as legitimate or illegitimate, whether it is terrorism or resistance, whatever you call it, let me ask the question this way, what has it achieved for the Palestinian people?
I dread to think what he would say if the terrorism was working.
Most importantly, it shows he is as uninformed as he is stupid: even if he couldn't figure it out by himself, the goal of the second Intifada has been exposed over and over again.
The goal of Yasser Arafat and the reason he started the second Intifada is to get an international separation force inserted between the territories controlled by the Palestinian Authority and the State of Israel.
This is the so-called the "Carrier Strategy". The idea is to get without any political agreement a geographical area with de-facto boundaries protected from the Israeli army by a foreign interposition force. Once he achieves this, he can continue his aggressive war against Israel with total impunity, protected by U.N. tanks and rifles and soldiers, until the PLO has the alliances, the weapons, the strength to wipe Israel off the map -- just like a carrier at sea, protected by its carrier group, allows air attacks in total impunity.
Just in case we didn't get it, Arafat explained his strategy to the former Indonesia president, M. Abdurrahman Wahid, and said to him, "the interim phase could even last 150 years, one day, we will push the Jews into the sea".
So... Not only Colon Bowel didn't figure it out by himself, but he didn't even bother to learn about the conflict.
Israeli killed in shooting attack in north near Green Line
By David Ratner, Tsahar Rotem and Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondents and Haaretz Service
An Israeli civilian was killed in a shooting attack Thursday morning in the northern Israeli-Arab village of Baka al-Garbiyeh, which is located just over the Green Line border with the West Bank.
The victim, a security guard for Bezeq employee, was traveling along with a Bezeq crew in the center of Baka al-Garbiyeh when the gunman approached their vehicle, opened fire and fled, Army Radio reported. The
Israeli was critically wounded and later died of his wounds.
The gunman, a 15-year-old Palestinian, was wounded and captured by police officers and Border Police troops who arrived at the scene a short time later.
The Al Aqsa Martyrs` Brigades, which is linked to Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction, claimed the attack, Israel Radio reported. The attack took place amid reports that the militant Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah organizations would announce an agreement later Thursday to halt all attacks on Israelis for three months, both in the territories and in Israel.
Animal Behavior:
In January 2001, Ofir - an Israeli teenager was lured to a ''date" by a certain "Sally" he met on the Internet. It turned out that "Sally" was not a Moroccan Jewish woman looking for a date: her real name was Mona Jaud Awana, and she was a palestinian student member of Fatah-Tanzim. Ofir was lured to Ramallah and killed by a Tanzim activist point blank, with a Kalashnikov.
Now comes the "explanation":
Mona, who was later arrested by the Israeli police, said she decided the day the Palestinians carried out the lynching of two Israelis soldiers in Ramallah in late 2000 to abduct an Israeli and execute him. Mona had been present at the Ramallah lynching, and said she was “excited” by what she saw.Soon after, Mona started to make contact with Israelis on the Internet.After her first potential victim refused to accompany her to Ramallah,she made contact with Ofir.
I don't speak for Charles, but in my opinion, the terrorists who were assassinated before they could kill again deserve to die. As for those who consider these terrorists heros or martyrs and support them . . . they can die as well. Those who support them are just as sick and evil as the ones who murder innocent people to further their polical goals. That goes for all the leftists, neo-commie bastards in the United States as well. They are all sick.
Another shooting: an Israeli telephone serviceman shot and killed by a palestinian 15 year old:
The Fatah movement's Al Aksa Brigades claimed responsibiity Thursday for the fatal shooting of an Israeli technician in the Israeli-Arab town of Baka Al-Gharbiya, Israel Radio reports.
The technician with the Bezeq telephone company was shot and killed by a 15-year-old youth at 11:15 a.m. local time. A security guard with the technician chased after the assailant, shot and wounded him, as well, police said. The youth was taken to a hospital.
I can't understand why Charles blocks Holocaust deniers, neo-Nazis, blatant anti-Semites, etc. and doesn't block these schmucks as well.
I may not agree with them completely, but there's a world of difference between saying "kill the victim" a la Nazi and "kill the bad guy" a la these folks. I don't know if you're a moral relativist, but the inability to distinguish between these statements suggests you might be.
You live in a hemmed-in overcrowded town. Unemployment is over 50%. Kids schooling is disrupted, so they hang with their unemployed older brothers, cousins, fathers...maybe play a little football...and talk about the hated occupation and how screwed up life is.
Bored out of their minds.
Then a car blows up.
Finally something to see and do!
So they sprint to the scene of the explosion and try to be a part of one of the few things that represents actual change, get to display a car fragment, mourn the Resistance members killed, and with a big excited angry group assembled...get to rail at the hated Occupier.
Then they return to their boring, bleak lives hanging out on doorsteps. Same pattern as we saw in N Ireland, American inner cities.
If you can agree with this statement at all "I cannot bring myself to refer to them as 'people' or 'humans'" (#38 amadeus9), likely a Myers-Squibb career test should indicate that you are well-suited to be a switch puller for a gas shower at Auschwitz.
Israeli treatment of Palestinians bears no resemblance to Nazi treatment of Jews.
However, many comments on this site certainly look like the work of Brownshirts. (Go back to post #52 for examples before you start kvetching.)
Expect a major ranting increase in the "zionazi cover-up" vein..."saint" rachael has been confirmed as an accidental (in the sense of chronic stupidity leading you to lob yourself under a 'dozer to protect a weapons smuggling tunnel being accidental) death.
indymedia
aiiiiiiieeeee!!!.the zionazis haqve covered it up...brave martyr...*splutter*...zionist-crusader conspiracy...rant..dribble...squawk..
Army decides to close file on death of U.S. peace activist
By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent
The Military Advocate General, Major General Menahem Finkelstein, has decided to close the file on the death of American peace activist Rachel Corrie, who died after being crushed by an army bulldozer in the Gaza Strip in March.
An investigation conducted by the IDF's Southern Command determined that the driver of the bulldozer had not seen Corrie and had not intentionally run over her. A probe conducted by the Military Police revealed similar findings.
Finkelstein reached his decision after reviewing the findings of the investigation conducted by the Military Police.
This brings to an end the military's probe into the incident, and means that no disciplinary measures will be taken against any of those involved in the incident in which Corrie was killed.
Maybe so, but that doesn't make it right. And, actually, more than human nature, I am inclined to agree with #36 Spiny Norman who alludes to the desire "'to be anointed by the blood of the martyr.'" This is a messy religious act with a few shakes of public spectacle for the bored and downtrodden mixed in.
I think this frenzied reaction is what helps to enrage these people. I think they purposely pull these body parts to augment their hate.
#61 (Josh Shanker) said:
If you can agree with this statement at all "I cannot bring myself to refer to them as 'people' or 'humans'" (#38 amadeus9), likely a Myers-Squibb career test should indicate that you are well-suited to be a switch puller for a gas shower at Auschwitz.
This has always been a site where people blow off steam at each other. It's a form of release. We see this crap every day, it doesn't seem to stop, so we do what's human in nature - "kvetching". (I am a gentile, so I hope I used this word in the right context).
However, Josh, you respond to Ariel's point - there is no comparison between how people feel here and how the Nazis ACTUALLY DID murder millions of people. Once again, comparing the 2 is moral relativism. Chances are there are no murderers on this board. (Other than the occasional ME troll),
"there is no comparison between how people feel here [JS note: on LGF] and how the Nazis ACTUALLY DID murder millions of people"
This statement is 150% correct. I am not comparing the LGFers who claim that Palestinians are sub-human to Nazis.
I am comparing LGFers who claim that Palestinians are sub-human to the vast majority of non-violent, passive Germans who engaged in sportive anti-Semitic dialogue during the 1930s and 1940s and did nothing more than morally encourage the Holocaust.
I am comparing LGFers who claim that Palestinians are sub-human to the vast majority of non-violent, passive Germans who engaged in sportive anti-Semitic dialogue during the 1930s and 1940s and did nothing more than morally encourage the Holocaust.
The Germans were anti-Semitic and made the Holocaust simple. They were, therefore, an element of the systematic destruction of the Jews.
The Palestinians are anti-Semitic and made the Intifadah simple. They were, therefore, an element of the systematic destruction of the Jews.
Josh Shanker: look, Jan did say she spoke in anger, and if you look at what's happening, I'd say it's FULLY understandable - and I don't literally want ALL palestinian arabs or ALL arabs of any kind killed either, but when there's all this constant attacks and hatred and you see people celebrating killings and smearing their hands in blood after lynching Israeli soldiers and gouging out their eyes and cracking their skulls open - SORRY if I have to be so blunt and hurt your oh so fine sensibility - and still cheering for more of that.... Well, is that reaction of anger so incomprehensible?
The other comments sound to me made in the same spirit. And talking of the kind of people as shown in these pictures. So please, please, please, if you get more upset by spontaneous reactions of horror at such savagery, I'd suggest you reflect a bit more on the idea of morals. And please, that parallel with nazi appeasers is so sick, and distorting the whole matters, it really is pitiful that you'd resort to that to simply say "I am so much more restrained and civil in language and thoughts". You're reading reactions at the savagery of Jew-hating, and you compare the reactions to Jew-hating itself?? how twisted is that?
I don't know for what purpose Charles shows these photos. But the global result in the comments is... depressing.
In our comfortable armchairs, behind our computer in a well climatized room, we (the civilized people of the free world) are typing our wise comments like :
#1 Hehe, good title :)
#5 Perhaps they are just looking for a tasty snack.
#6 Judging from those
pictures it will take a few hundred years to civilize
that kind of demented near fiendish behavior
#9 Its an interesting social experiment.. I still cant figure out why they crowd around the exploded cars.
#12 Oh, I get it -- the kiddies are looking for some special item for Show & Tell in school. Plus, there's extra credit if they can identify the organ they brought.
#26 These people are nothing but a bunch of rabid dogs...
Congratulation !! That's deep wise thinking comming from generous human feeling...
Because off course we are sure about how we would react in font of what Jono calls an interesting social experiment.. : some cars just blasted by missiles round the corner ???
I can't tell without experience how I would behave then. Probably running to hide in the nearest safe place. I hope anyway I would have balls enough to go at the car and check if there is still life here to save; and, if so, help with what I have : my hands.
May be then I would be on a picture some websurfer would comment "Look at this animal ! touching THAT with bare hands ! POUARK !! May be he's there for enjoying BBQ fro free HAHAHA..."
The more I ear humans, the more I listen to my dog.
You need to cart off your self righteousness to a people that really need some preaching on tolerance. The Muslim Arabs. Go lay your jive on them.
I have run out of compassion for a people that sends suicide bombers and other demons out to kill my Jewish people. And does their best to kill the unarmed. The women and children. Read up on Amalek. Straighten up and fly right and start acting like a Jew.
Samudra appeared not to see Zervos's gesture as he walked from the court yelling:"With Mecca, with the Kabah, Muslim people, destroy Christians, destroy America, destroy Jews," he screamed.
When my father was nearly killed in a car accident, he pulled the other guy out. Somehow he managed to overcome the need to tear his limbs off and wave them to other drivers.
I disagree with you Caton about the sub-humanity of the Palestinians. I believe it is their humanity which makes their actions so repellent. I do not expect more of the wild animal than that it will bite. That is its nature, not a moral failing. Disgusting and morally and culturally bankrupt as I find the Palestinians, they are nonetheless human. Perhaps to be numbered among the worst examples of humanity but all too human.
"I think that all terrorists are sub-humans. I think that anybody who willingly and knowingly funds or supports terrorism is sub-human.
"Do you agree with that?"
Colt #70, unknowingly, supplies me with the perfect response: "Sub-human? No. Certainly not innocent."
This strand of comments tends to do very little to distinguish between terrorists who are guilty of assault at the very least and those that swarm cars in a unmitigated frenzy (who may very well be guilty of "thought-crime" or "hate-crime" . . . but Caton decries "the business of defining what the requisite bad thoughts are" in his comment on "slippery slopes").
If we label the terrorists as sub-human creatures and not merely hateful criminals, we are able to objectify, dehumanize and animalize our enemy. And since we do very little to distinguish between the said terrorists and the car swarmers, we enabling the objectification, dehumanization and animalization the lot of them. It makes it easier for us to justify killing them all.
By why am I griping? There are at least of few commenters here who would support the nuking of the Palistinians.
If you can agree with this statement at all "I cannot bring myself to refer to them as 'people' or 'humans'" (#38 amadeus9), likely a Myers-Squibb career test should indicate that you are well-suited to be a switch puller for a gas shower at Auschwitz.
Yes, because the Jews in the run up to the Holocaust behaved with savagery equivalent to the palestinians. German deaths due to Jewish partisan attacks numbered in the hundreds. [/sarcasm] Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves because of their violent behavior, right? What, you say that they weren't violent? Well, it's not impossible to say that I think that the palestinians have not been acting in a manner befitting of human beings, for example by targeting innocent women and children, without me being a prime candidate for wanting to kill the palestinian innocent women and children, assuming I could find any.
Israeli treatment of Palestinians bears no resemblance to Nazi treatment of Jews.
Yeah, no kidding. That's why your first sentence makes no sense and is really quite offensive.
However, many comments on this site certainly look like the work of Brownshirts. (Go back to post #52 for examples before you start kvetching.)
I've disagreed with both Jan and axiom because I think they're way out there. They weren't convinced and that's their perogative. I reserve the right to not repeat the same arguments. And I believe that, even though I somewhat disagree with them, axiom has a point that killing the celebrants (aka mourners) will discourage that sort of behavior and Jan has a partial point that some killing will be necessary. I think I've already addressed your point with regards to the palestinians behavior.
I disagree with you Caton about the sub-humanity of the Palestinians.
Straw man. I never said anything about the humanity or lack of humanity of the "Palestinians".
I said, and I stand by it, that any terrorist is sub-human. It applies to all terrorists, whatever their religion, ethnic origin, skin color and political ideology.
In addition, I said, and I stand by it, that anybody who willingly and knowingly funds or supports terrorists is sub-human.
Where do you read anything about "Palestinians" here? Or are you saying that "Palestinian" terrorists should get a free pass?
I am glad Charles shows these photos. Sorry that you find pictures of reality depressing.
What is uncivilized about expressing approval that justice is being served? What is wrong with mocking the failure of those who harbor and support terrorists and murderers?
"Congratulation !! That's deep wise thinking comming from generous human feeling..." you say? Generosity is not generosity if is extracted from you at the threat of death.
I can imagine that if you were there you probably would be running to hide in the nearest place that is safe from reality.
What the hell makes you think these kids are checking to see if there is still a life to save? Clearly, they are not. They are merely doing what most folks do when they see something blow up; they are simply acting like voyeurs and going to check out the scene.
There is nothing there that they are touching with bare hands that makes me say "POUARK!" It is the look in their eyes that makes me question their degree of civility.
The more I hear cowards and moral equivalists like you, the more I desire to hear common sense.
Colt #70, unknowingly, supplies me with the perfect response: "Sub-human? No. Certainly not innocent."
Hmm. I disagree here. Anybody who willingly and knowingly targets innocents is not worth of being human. Note that, as I said above, this applies to all terrorists, whatever their religion, ethnic origin, color of skin or political ideology. Yes, Goldstein is sub-human for me.
Colt #70, unknowingly, supplies me with the perfect response: "Sub-human? No. Certainly not innocent."
Perfect? I'm touched.
This strand of comments tends to do very little to distinguish between terrorists who are guilty of assault at the very least and those that swarm cars in a unmitigated frenzy
Past experience shows that if they can go in to an "unmitigated frenzy" when there are, say, two IDF reservists trapped in a PA police station, they will.
If we label the terrorists as sub-human creatures and not merely hateful criminals, we are able to objectify, dehumanize and animalize our enemy. And since we do very little to distinguish between the said terrorists and the car swarmers, we enabling the objectification, dehumanization and animalization the lot of them. It makes it easier for us to justify killing them all.
I can't tell without experience how I would behave then. Probably running to hide in the nearest safe place. I hope anyway I would have balls enough to go at the car and check if there is still life here to save; and, if so, help with what I have : my hands.
There's just very little evidence to suggest that this is what the palestinians are doing. And there's a great deal of evidence that they're trying to get bits of martyrs (shahids) as a memento. Recall that Khomeini's funeral had to be delayed since the swarm of the crowd was so bad - all trying to get a part for home.
BTW, as an aside, to help you with your English, and not trying to be mean, climatiser in French does not really have an English analogue; perhaps you should have said behind our computer in a casual atmosphere
"Yes, because the Jews in the run up to the Holocaust behaved with savagery equivalent to the palestinians. German deaths due to Jewish partisan attacks numbered in the hundreds. [/sarcasm] Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves because of their violent behavior, right?"
Please clarify, Ariel, because I don't understand your point. The way I read it it says, the Nazi gassing of Jews was unjustified because the Jews were innocent victims. However, the Palestinians--because they support those who use disgusting violence and frequently riot in the streets--these Palestinians--car swarmers and molitov cocktail throwers--these are a guilty people.
If were were able to pile a thousand of them into a shower like room and turn on the Cyclon-B, we might be a little bit justified because they weren't innocent? Is that your point?
Your comments about the Holocaust are pretty obnoxious. Just because the Holocaust happened to the Jews, doesn't mean that any time a Jew wants to kill someone (who wants to kill him!) that it's a reverse-Holocaust. That said,
If were were able to pile a thousand of them into a shower like room and turn on the Cyclon-B, we might be a little bit justified because they weren't innocent? Is that your point?
For the ones who weren't innocent, the ones who were terrorists or supporters of the same, I'd have no issues with it, except perhaps the manner of execution.
If a group of people, whatever their ethnic origin, religion, color of skin or political affiliation, that all willingly and knowingly support terrorism, were piled into a shower like room and I could turn on the Zyklon B, I would. No problem. I'd also strap them one by one to an electric chair and turn it on. Or shoot them. Death penaltly is death penalty, using charged words to shame me because I'm Jew, as you just did, is unfair and stinks of Judenhass.
I wouldn't harm people who unwillingly supported terrorism because they were forced to do so by an oppressive regime. I wouldn't harm people who unknowingly supported terrorism because they didn't know it was terrorism ("Flower fund"...)
But those that funded and supported terrorism willingly and knowingly... Yep. No problem.
No, I tend to disagree with Gordon most of the time. However, I do believe that Jews and the pro-Israel constituency are not exempt from the results of Milgram's Experiment #18 on Obedience.
The swarming mobs in the photos can't be classified as subhuman, and you can't say these kids are innocent or guilty. The Pal society is a product of efficient and systematic brainwashing, pure and simple. I daresay that if the same people living comfortably in the US grew up elsewhere and under different circumstances, in which we were spoon-fed daily hatred and dissenting voices were never heard, we could easily turn into a frenzied mob as well. Human nature, you can see it throughout history and across cultures.
This makes me sound a lot more liberal than I am - I have no problem with elimiating all terrorists, and I don't even really have a problem with tranfer, if it would save Jewish lives (which it would). I just want to place the blame for these pictures where it lies - with the PA and its controlled media, mosques, and schools.
I'm not sure sub-human is a word that's wise to use. In-human certainly describes them however.
You're right. Terrorists and their supporters are absolutely not human. Calling them sub-human is an insult to the nice, peaceful and very civilized gorillas.
"If a group of people, whatever their ethnic origin, religion, color of skin or political affiliation, that all willingly and knowingly support terrorism, were piled into a shower like room and I could turn on the Zyklon B, I would. No problem."
It would be a problem for me. We may be different. What do we do about the Irgun and the bombing of the King David? I support it. I guess I'm in your gas chamber.
"I wouldn't harm people who unwillingly supported terrorism because they were forced to do so by an oppressive regime."
You and I agree that Palestine is not a free society, and, quite often, outspoken members of the anti-terrorist lobby are executed in public.
The Pal society is a product of efficient and systematic brainwashing, pure and simple.
Absolutely. The responsibility of the Arab League in brainwashing and oppressing Arab refugees in order to use them as attack dogs against Israel cannot be stressed enough.
That Israeli-Arabs are overwhelmingly decent people proves it.
King David was a military HQ. The test is: do you support Baruch Goldstein's Hebron Massacre? If you do, then your place is in the gas chamber, or on the electric chair.
How come these "despairing" Palestinans, living under the cruel boot of "poverty and occupation," always seem to have the money to afford fairly fashionable sportswear? I've never seen such a large number of well-dressed and well-nourished "desparate people" in my life...
I've disagreed with both Jan and axiom because I think they're way out there. They weren't convinced and that's their perogative. I reserve the right to not repeat the same arguments. And I believe that, even though I somewhat disagree with them, axiom has a point that killing the celebrants (aka mourners) will discourage that sort of behavior and Jan has a partial point that some killing will be necessary.
Ariel: You are partially correct in your assessment. The so called Palestinians are equivalent to pre-wwII Japanese and of course the Nazis. In order to sustain any hope at all for both the Israelis and the Arabs is to strike the demonic among them. Israel has laws to address this concern. The "Palestinians" have only Israeli gunships. If they had some sort of law and order on their own I would never post anything like I did.
For someone who's supposedly pro-Israel, you've managed to trot out the most stereotypical anti-Israel statements, from the King David to the relentless Holocaust references.
What do we do about the Irgun and the bombing of the King David?
Guess what? A few warnings, a military target, etc do not a terrorist attack make.
You and I agree that Palestine is not a free society, and, quite often, outspoken members of the anti-terrorist lobby are executed in public.
I'm afraid that there's little evidence of outspoken members of the anti-terrorist lobby existing to have been executed. AFAIK, there has not been a single press item suggesting that any "Ahmed the collaborator" was executed for saying something. Historically, Arafat did make clear to folks that speaking against him wouldn't be tolerated, but there's no evidence to suggest that collaborators are not:
1) victims of family rivalry
2) random bloodlust killings
3) real collaborators
or any other possibility.
"folks that speaking [sic] against him wouldn't be tolerated" and "real collaborators"
Sufficiently members of the "Palestinian anti-terror" for my tastes.
I won't dispute that the Stern Gang committed terrorism. All I'm saying is that the King David is brought up again and again, and its an example of hitting a military target.
I know. But it was the Irgun who blew up the King David, wasn't it? The Stern Gang lynched the two British sergeants, bayoneted the six Paras in their beds, etc.
There is certainly evidence (easy to find on the Internet . . . yes, don't believe everything that you read), and it is unlikely that Menahem Begin was entirely unaware of the Stern Gang's movements.
It comes to a "plausible deniability" argument for the Irgun, one that is also used by the Supreme Terrorist #1 and "Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's own Fatah movement." Begin was not innocent . . . that doesn't mean I don't support what he did.
No, I am not drawing comparisons! I am just pointing out that things are stickier than we might wish.
"Even the Nazis, bestial as they were, were not as gruesome as these things..."
Nazis were a whole lot worse than present day Palestinians, you must be willingly suspending your own ability to think critically to be able to say such obvious nonsense.
When you start referring to people as "things" you use phraseology that was perfected by Nazis.
Ok, a police station maybe. But an embassy? That's just weird.
Legitimate military target, according to the Geneva conventions and the Hague conventions. The enemy has no right whatsoever to complain. The country where the Embassy is located, on the other hand...
I disagree with you Caton about the sub-humanity of the Palestinians.
Straw man. I never said anything about the humanity or lack of humanity of the "Palestinians".
Inferred from the post being in a thread about Pali carbeques. My apologies for misapprehending your meaning. I find it quite easy to interchange the words Palestinian and terrorist. A fault of mine.
I said, and I stand by it, that any terrorist is sub-human. It applies to all terrorists, whatever their religion, ethnic origin, skin color and political ideology.
The more I think about it the more think it is a matter of definitions rather than a disagreement. Your operative definition of sub-human seems equal to what I'd term morally bankrupt. Sub-human to me suggests a base animal state, a state which doesn't give rise to moral reasoning. To me it is the humanity, implying a capability for moral reasoning, an abdicated capability true, of the terrorist, Pali or otherwise, which makes them capable and culpable. By all means hunt them down and give them a dirt nap.
In addition, I said, and I stand by it, that anybody who willingly and knowingly funds or supports terrorists is sub-human.
Where do you read anything about "Palestinians" here? Or are you saying that "Palestinian" terrorists should get a free pass?
As I said I apologize for making an incorrect inference as regards the Palestinians. I'm all for giving terrorists a missile up the backside and the same for those who encourage them, fund them, shelter them and decide that it is a good idea to get in a car with them.
embassys are not f***ing military targets. British Embassies were not back then and the US embassies that al qadea has spent a lot of their time blowing up are not either.
The embassy grounds are seen as belonging to the country of the embassy, and if there are any military officials inside... That's the best I can make of it.
Amazing that that comes from the same people who wrote that "proportionality" stuff.
embassys are not f***ing military targets. British Embassies were not back then and the US embassies that al qadea has spent a lot of their time blowing up are not either.
I'm having trouble finding the reference -- there was a case in which the U.K. bombed a German embassy (in Italy IIRC) and the ruling was that it was a legitimate target.
"In our comfortable armchairs, behind our computer in a well climatized room, we (the civilized people of the free world) are typing our wise comments like..."
Remember who wanted to run against Arafat in 1995 and had a good chance of winning?
I guess I had thought that he was referring to collaborators in the stupidfada era. That's why I added the qualifier that historically he did it make it clear that dissent wasn't tolerated.
Josh Shanker #112,
"folks that speaking [sic] against him wouldn't be tolerated" and "real collaborators"
Sufficiently members of the "Palestinian anti-terror" for my tastes.
First off, if you're going to be obnoxious about correcting my English, you'd best be certain that you're right. The rest of the sentence was: Historically, Arafat did make clear to folks that speaking against him wouldn't be tolerated. It was not folks as the subject and speaking as the verb but Arafat as the subject and making clear as the verb.
More importantly, are you saying that "collaborators" killed through family rivalry are necessarily "anti-terror"? We know at least some of the "collaborators" were killed for this reason - but we don't know about a lot of them.
I agree that Arafat runs a police state. But you alleged that outspoken anti-terror folks were executed. There really haven't been any.
How come these "despairing" Palestinans, living under the cruel boot of "poverty and occupation," always seem to have the money to afford fairly fashionable sportswear? I've never seen such a large number of well-dressed and well-nourished "desparate people" in my life...
Those aren't originals. Those are localy made high quality illegal copies that they smuggle to the Israeli market.
Sold for full price in Israel, and a few cents in Gaza.
As for well-nourished - palestinians steal lots and lots of fertilizer from the settlers so that their agriculture is very successful.
Israeli cars are stolen at outragious rates which makes car insurance skyrocket.
Living next to a capitalist western country is very nice, especially if you have little concern for the property of the infidel.
The UK may well have bombed German embassies during a war. The UK is a nation, it was in a state of declared war with Germany and Italy. The stern gang and irgun were not a nation, they were terrorists groups. Al qaeda are not a nation, they are a terrorist group. None of them have the GC's applied to them as they are not legal combatants. The hagana which fought within the region and obeyed the rules of war would be covered by the GC. Which is why the hagana never did any of the damn stupid things the irgun and stern mob did.
Yeah that brings us right round to the Congo. Bushmeat. Ugh. What does it say that gorillas are not infrequently more civilized than their neighbors? Nothing good I fear.
If I'm not mistaken, the Geneva Conventions were a post-WWII thing. Also, I'm not sure about your characterization of Irgun and Stern as terrorists - while I don't countenance some of their methods, I believe that they, by and large, only attacked military targets.
I used to think of him as a worthless sack of sh*t no better than the rag terrorists. Now, I still don't approve of what he did, but having thought about it, I must say that he is in no way comparable to the palinazi terrorists. The arab muslims he killed may not have been attacking any jews at just that moment, but they were NOT just any random group of humans... they were in a mosque, worshipping the religion of evil, and listening to anti-semitic sermons. Very often the muslims would also start violent rioting right after coming out of the mosque.
One things is for sure: his attack created more fuel for the anti-semitist propaganda machinery than CNN, Reuters, AP and all the euroweenies together could put out in a year of spin doctoring and truth distortion. He hurt the jewish cause badly... no question about that. That alone is enough reason to condemn his attack.
From a moral point of view it gets complicated. Some have suggested that his attack could be justifiable as pre-emptive self-defence. Intuitively I can appreciate the right to strike at your enemy first without letting him get in the first punch... but still, I must conclude that the self-defence argument here is lacking : upholding the rule of law, a cornerstone of western civilization, requires that individual citizens may use deadly force only when under attack, not acting as judge, jury and executioner pre-emptively.
It is likely that the people he killed would have gladly slit his throat for the crime of being a jew if they thought they could get away with it... but thought crimes don't exist, and there is no evidence of real criminal plans. And evidence there must be, of crimes attempted or committed, before even a court of law can convict. On that basis, his attack must be condemned as homicide. (You can find a brief summary of the the issues regarding pre-emptive self-defence with some reasons why it's not valid to be used in Goldstein's defence at this site: http://www.torah.org... )
But that doesn't put his attack morally to the same category as attacks on completely peaceful non-violent people in a Tel Aviv bus or night club... not by any stretch. Drawing a moral equivalence there is like treating someone who in a fit of rage grabs a gun and shoots a dangerous and violent personal enemy as equal to Heinrich Himmler.
Baruch Goldstein was an angry man who had had enough of worshippers of evil chanting death for him and his people, and he overreacted. That means he deserves a punishment... but it does not make him subhuman or in any way comparable to the palestinian beasts. Merely a human with human failings and faults, as we all have. Think about it, if you had a neighbour who wanted you dead, you knew that for a fact, he used to hold sermons with his friends chanting for Baal to give them strength to kill you... can you REALLY be sure you wouldn't one day snap and blow him away?
Not justification, just putting things in perspective.
I guess I had thought that he was referring to collaborators in the stupidfada era. That's why I added the qualifier that historically he did it make it clear that dissent wasn't tolerated.
That's the reason I don't think all Arbs in Yesha willingly and knowingly support terrorism. There are some that have no choice.
I firmly believe that if you take human life, you forfeit your own life, it doesn't belong to you from that moment and anything can be done to you for what you have done. This applies equally to those who explicitly support actual killing. I hate those who celebrated 9-11 in the streets even more than the actual killers.
"If a group of people, whatever their ethnic origin, religion, color of skin or political affiliation, that all willingly and knowingly support terrorism, were piled into a shower like room and I could turn on the Zyklon B, I would."
Terrorism is the targeting of civilians. I remember this particular case (I have the dead-tree source packed somewhere, too) because it specifically said that an embassy is a legitimate military target in time of war -- while an hospital or a school is not. So bombing an embassy is not terrorism.
Believe me, I don't like it either. But sticking to the definition of terrorism as targeting of civilians, as opposed to targeting of legitimate military target, is the only way to avoid the whole "freedom fighters/terrrorists" bullshit.
Whether Baruch Goldstein opens fire on a mosque Noah Federman tries to bomb a Palestinian girls school, it is sheer terror, by ever definition, morally equivalent to Palestinian terror. Scary when people (like my rabbi) try to enoble the actions of these ab-humans.
Note: for clarity, I am not a Jew, some may take offense at my chiming in to this argument, none is intended.
To quote Josh Shanker:
If we label the terrorists as sub-human creatures and not merely hateful criminals, we are able to objectify, dehumanize and animalize our enemy. And since we do very little to distinguish between the said terrorists and the car swarmers, we enabling the objectification, dehumanization and animalization the lot of them. It makes it easier for us to justify killing them all.
FWIW, I think it's naive to think that Israelis are going to have peace by any other means than total war or abandoning Eretz Israel. Since the US is increasingly identified as an enemy of the Muslims, the US will be presented with a similar choice, total war or abandoning Israel.
Considering the carnage that total war involves these are hard choices for many. The US is currently conducting an exercise in limited war in Iraq and finding significant numbers of shaheeds flocking to Iraq as they did to Afghanistan when the Russians invaded. It is likely to get very messy.
The "demonization" of Palistinians (so far muted) is a normal human response to the situation for those struggling with such a decision. My argument is that a rational analysis of the situation leads me to believe that Israel is faced with just such a choice. I see no rational hope that anything short of total war or Israelis leaving Israel could solve the situation.
I realize that many would say that evacuating Israel would only encourage the Islamists. That is probably true, but the "territorial imperitive" would make them far less aggressive in such a situation. I am not advocating evacuation of Israel, just saying that I do not believe it is realistic to expect peace outside of those two choices.
I think that may very well be a part of it, but it doesn't make it right. In college I read one of Plato's works (unfortunately can't remember which one) and one of the speakers mentioned that he was disgusted by his own tendency to rubber-neck at gruesome events. So, at one point when he was walking past a pile of bodies of men that had been executed, he looked at them and said to himself "Go on, enjoy the pretty sight."
In short, 2500 years ago pagan thinkers realized that revelling in the gruesome is destructive both to civility as a whole and to the person who indulges in it. Christianity and Judaism both avoid the tendency to revel in gore (I guess there may be some debate about veneration of the relics of Christian martyrs, but even then we don't wave them around in the air, we place them in golden boxes and the like...), as do many, many other faiths. Islam pays lip service to the idea, especially by their extremely speedy burial practices. However, those of us in our comfortable chairs do see some hypocrisy in Islam constantly lecturing us about how other faiths are decadent and evil, yet again and again we see the devout brandishing body parts and basically acting against human dignity.
Which leads to another question--what sort of parents let their children witness this? When I was a kid, my folks would cover my eyes during violent parts of movies. The natural human response of parents is to want to protect their kids from the ugliness of the world. It is corrosive that Palestinian parents indoctrinate their kids into this gruesome fascination with death. These children get no childhood, none at all.
Inhuman? I won't get into that argument. An affront against human dignity? Oh, mais oui.
By and large hamas actaully spend more money and energy on charity work and education that blowing up buses...the fact that they engaged in blowing up one bus makes them terrorists regardless of what other thing they may have done and military targets they may have attacked.
Same goes for the stern and irgun. Single standards must be applied to terrorists, no excuses, no if's and no buts.
"I think it's naive to think that Israelis are going to have peace by any other means than total war or abandoning Eretz Israel."
I'd prefer an imperfect solution to war. That being said, let's see how this wall thing goes before pulling the total war trigger. It won't be perfect, but it might be suitable.
Agreed. But it's targeting civilians, in whole or in part. As in turn one trick and you're a whore, target one civilian and you're a terrorist.
Civilians (which includes office workers earning tuppence ha'penny an hour in a British embassy and UN mediators) have a right to not be targeted by terrorists. Al qaeda could sink a US Aircraft Carrier tommorow, they'd still be terrorists. Hamas could blow up an IDF tank tommorow, they'd still be terrorists. Sames goes for the stern mob and irgun
It is likely that the people he killed would have gladly slit his throat for the crime of being a jew if they thought they could get away with it... but thought crimes don't exist, and there is no evidence of real criminal plans. And evidence there must be, of crimes attempted or committed, before even a court of law can convict. On that basis, his attack must be condemned as homicide. . . .
But that doesn't put his attack morally to the same category as attacks on completely peaceful non-violent people in a Tel Aviv bus or night club... not by any stretch.
Im calling bullshit on this Jan.
Like Josh said at #144, and Caton, Ariel, Colt and others have noted, Goldstein was a cretin and morally bankrupt inhuman.
Blaming Pali terror and Islam for Golstein is like the criminal apologists here in teh USA blaming "poverty" for the criminality of the urban underclass. It's bullshit, plain and simple.
The Palis can use your logic to blow up a disco since, shit, don't all Israelis serve in teh IDF? Sooner or later they'll come down hard on the Palis, and then all those IDF soldiers will be massacering innocent Pali children [/sarcasm]
Don't you see that? Goldstein was a moral blot on the Jewish people.
I'm not with Josh insofar as he has trouble with real solutions to real problems (killing all those who actively support terrorists [I'm with Caton on that]), but he's spot on with telling you you're wrong.
Yeah that brings us right round to the Congo. Bushmeat. Ugh. What does it say that gorillas are not infrequently more civilized than their neighbors? Nothing good I fear.
Well... It says that I like gorillas. :-)
#137 Jan
If I understand correctly, you are saying that you understand how Baruch Goldstein could have snapped, and think what he did is not as bad as the Arab terrorism against Israel, but you still don't approve nor condone his action.
I partly agree. I understand how he could have snapped. However, indiscriminately shooting Arabs in a Mosque is just as ab-human as shooting indiscriminately at cars passing on a highway. If B.G. had taken some time to find out who was a rabid terrrorist supporter and who was a Muslim with little choice but to listen to a sermon he doesn't approve, and targeted only the rabid terrorist supporter type, that would be different.
I am not suggesting that it is time to pull the trigger, just that the actions one seeks/advises/advocates should be tempered by the realization that total war is the choice unless Israel is evacuated.
The wall is a good idea. IMO Israel needs to regain some of the stature it has lost in world opinion by being conciliatory.
While some revile FDR for Pearl Harbor, I think a realistic analysis of his course is that it was a wise one. For the record I do not think history supports that he knew how serious the Japanese attack would be, but surely knew one was coming somewhere.
One things is for sure: his attack created more fuel for the anti-semitist propaganda machinery than CNN, Reuters, AP and all the euroweenies together could put out in a year of spin doctoring and truth distortion. He hurt the jewish cause badly... no question about that. That alone is enough reason to condemn his attack.
Jesus, lady. You remember why Mazen "condemned" violence? Because it was hindering the Pali cause.
Why are you making excuses for a man who murdered 29 civilians? Are you going to call it "resistance" next?
"However, indiscriminately shooting Arabs in a Mosque is just as ab-human as shooting indiscriminately at cars passing on a highway."
Hell, even Hamlet was willing to wait for Claudius to finish his praying before knocking his uncle off for murdering his dad. I don't necessarily agree with Hamlet's hesitation here, but then again, I am a little freaked out by people taking assasination orders from a ghost.
Agreed. But it's targeting civilians, in whole or in part. As in turn one trick and you're a whore, target one civilian and you're a terrorist.
A case could be made that civilians were collateral damage...
Al qaeda could sink a US Aircraft Carrier tommorow, they'd still be terrorists. Hamas could blow up an IDF tank tommorow, they'd still be terrorists. Sames goes for the stern mob and irgun
Hmm. My point is, if al-Qaeda members fought against the U.S. Army fairly and according to the rules of war, they would still be terrorists, but that particular action would not be a terrorist attack.
By and large hamas actaully spend more money and energy on charity work and education that blowing up buses...the fact that they engaged in blowing up one bus makes them terrorists regardless of what other thing they may have done and military targets they may have attacked.
Same goes for the stern and irgun. Single standards must be applied to terrorists, no excuses, no if's and no buts.
I strongly disagree.
War, by it's very nature, is not very moral business. It involves killing humans to achieve national goals. It is a liberal fallacy that there could be such things as "limited wars", "laws of war", and especially that any of those would make war one bit more humane.
Laws of war say that it is perfectly ok to shoot and kill a reluctant conscript who was forcibly recruited and who opposes the whole war and regime he is forced to fight for... he has a uniform so he's a target. But a civilian, doing his best to help the war effort by feeding and clothing the nation and it's soldiers, and who would be happy to cut you open and eat your brain and liver if you were a jew, is a protected non-combatant. Does that make any sense? Not to me.
There are two kinds of wars: those with legitimate goals, and those without. If the goal is legitimate, the best way to fight it is the way that ends it quickly and decisively. Making distinction between friend, neutral and enemy, but none between combatant and non-combatant.
Buying the legalistic rules of war bs the Allied Air Force pilots in WWII would have been worse war criminals than the terrorists who blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut or attacked USS Cole. Sensible? I think not.
I fully agree that the Geneva Conventions are bullshit that should never have been signed or ratified by anybody. In addition, the Geneva Conventions have been nullified by the same people who signed them, by never, ever being enforced.
If I understand correctly, you are saying that you understand how Baruch Goldstein could have snapped, and think what he did is not as bad as the Arab terrorism against Israel, but you still don't approve nor condone his action.
Yes, that's correct.
I partly agree. I understand how he could have snapped. However, indiscriminately shooting Arabs in a Mosque is just as ab-human as shooting indiscriminately at cars passing on a highway. If B.G. had taken some time to find out who was a rabid terrrorist supporter and who was a Muslim with little choice but to listen to a sermon he doesn't approve, and targeted only the rabid terrorist supporter type, that would be different.
I see your point... and not taking that time is a big part of the reason why I feel his actions must be condemned.
But I still draw a differnce between snapping under pressure to kill those who probably had it coming, and out of plain and simple bigotry and bloodthirst killing random people who almost certainly deserved nothing of the kind. Illegal, unethical homicide both... but separated by the line between ab-human and merely criminal behavior.
I think defending Baruch Goldstein is beyond the pale. "Understanding" his "frustration" is not dissimilar to Palestinians "understanding" the "frustration" of suicide bombers even as they "condemn" them just as you "condemn" Baruch Goldstein's action, Jan.
Goldstein was frustrated? So was Abu Mahmoud Whatever.
I suppose you can draw a reasonable distinction between him and Hamasniks in that he was apparently acting alone, but you cannot draw such a distinction between him and Palestinian terrorists who act alone, and there are many of those.
I, for one, understand that suicide bombers are nothing more than brainwashed tools. I understand that, while they're just as ab-human as their handlers, they do not deserve my hate -- just a quick and painless death, like any rabid dog that must be put down. The handlers, on the other hand...
Same thing for Baruch Goldstein. Ab-human, a tool, deserving a quick and painless death.
But a civilian, doing his best to help the war effort by feeding and clothing the nation and it's soldiers, and who would be happy to cut you open and eat your brain and liver if you were a jew, is a protected non-combatant. Does that make any sense? Not to me.
Jews aren't even close to halal, let alone their organ meat!
Seriously, can you really believe that every single person in that mosque was a rabid, butchering, jew-eating maniac?
In general, most Palis supprort terrorists to some degree, sure. But you gotta pick and choose which ones deserve death for killing Jews. YOur support of BG is akin to the statements of "nuk'em all" without the emotional venting to justify it. (hell we all need to vent) What you're saying is sociolopathic, and in truth pretty disturbing.
"Merely a human with human failings and faults, as we all have" are people who, say, lie a bit, cheat a bit, drink or smoke too much, get into stupid fights, drive badly, have a bad temper, or make bad mistakes they will later regret.
Not people who randomly kill other people. Sorry but I don't feel much in common with that kind of "failing"...
The Druze religion is secret and closed to converts. From the theological perspective, the secrecy derives from the tenet that the gates of the religion were open to new believers for the space of a generation when it was first revealed and everyone was invited to join. Since in their belief everyone alive today is the reincarnation of someone who lived at that time, there is no reason to allow them to join today. Therefore, the Druze refrain from missionizing, and no member of another religion can become Druze.
The Druze religion has no ceremonies or rituals, and no obligation to perform precepts in public. The main tenets that obligate all Druze, both uqqal and juhal, are:
Speaking the truth (instead of prayer)
Supporting your brethren (instead of charity)
Abandoning the old creeds (instead of fasting)
Purification from heresy (instead of pilgrimage)
Accepting the unity of God
Submitting to the will of God (instead of holy war)
When you start referring to people as "things" you use phraseology that was perfected by Nazis.
Yep.
Even the Nazis, bestial as they were, were not as gruesome as these things (I cannot bring myself to refer to them as "people" or "humans").
Here it is in the original german:
"Sogar waren das Nazis, bestial, da sie waren, nicht so gruesome wie diese Sachen (ich kann nicht mich holen, sich auf sie als "Leute" oder "Menschen" zu beziehen)."
RE #66:
I am comparing LGFers who claim that Palestinians are sub-human to the vast majority of non-violent, passive Germans who engaged in sportive anti-Semitic dialogue during the 1930s and 1940s and did nothing more than morally encourage the Holocaust.
Jan, are you off your meds?
"But a civilian, doing his best to help the war effort by feeding and clothing the nation and it's soldiers, and who would be happy to cut you open and eat your brain and liver if you were a jew, is a protected non-combatant. Does that make any sense? Not to me."
Jews aren't even close to halal, let alone their organ meat!
See post #8. They do that.
YOur support of BG is akin to the statements of "nuk'em all" without the emotional venting to justify it. (hell we all need to vent) What you're saying is sociolopathic, and in truth pretty disturbing.
I am NOT saying what Goldstein did was right and I do NOT support him. I am saying there's a world of difference between those eventually driven to kill people because they want you dead, say so, and celebrate when they see the blood and death of those of your religion. And killing jews, because they are jews. BG went over the line... committed homicide. He deserves to be tried and convicted for that. But comparable to a pali-rag terrorist who kills a bunch of teenagers just having fun... shoots a jewish baby in the head for the crime of being a jew... blows up a bus... Was BG comparable to that... no.
No, I hadn't seen #8, but remembering the incident, it occurs to me that these organ-gnawers were part of the lynch mob. They were engaged in wrongdoing. Not everyone in that mosque can be joined in the condemnation of the lynch mob or Hamass terrorists. Give me any percentage you want short of 100%. Say 50%, 75%, or even 90% of Palis are happy about dead Jews. I'll give you that.
But I won't give you 100%, and until it is 100%, BG's actions (which I'm satisfied you don't support FWIW), are no different in kind or scope from a bus bombing, and no less deserving of our collective and full condemnation. Targeted reprisals not Unit 101 attacks (Unit 101 only existed for five months and was disbanded after a raid in which the unit's members killed dozens of unarmed enemy citizens in an infamous brutal retaliation act.)
RE: Jan #39 -- remember most of those who call themselves "Palestinian" were thrown out of Jordan in the early 1970's due to their excruciatingly bad behavior.
They were likewise thrown out of Lebanon after starting a vicious racial/religious un-civil war in the 70's. Lebanon had been a country where vast numbers of Christians & Jews lived fairly peaceably, relatively undisturbed by their Muslim countrymen for centuries.
Jordan won't take them back. They have been expelled for criminal behavior.
A better goal might be to repatriate all illegal aliens among the "Palestinians." Many now are Syrians or Egyptians who illegally entered to get jobs in Isreal. At least these could be sent home since they are citizens of other countries.
You live in a hemmed-in overcrowded town. Unemployment is over 50%. Kids schooling is disrupted, so they hang with their unemployed older brothers, cousins, fathers...maybe play a little football...and talk about the hated occupation and how screwed up life is."
But over 95% of all poverty is caused by people who produce children they cannot or will not provide for. Birth rates among North Ireland's Catholics are more than double those of North Ireland's Protestants. Muslims have the highest birth rates in the world - whether they can feed, house, educate or care for those kids or not. Do not blame "society" or anyone else for irresponsible parents.
The rice bowl only feeds so many. Either earn more & earn a bigger rice bowl first, or limit procreation to those whose needs you can meet.
To the persons worried about the context of "subhuman" RE the Jordyptians, I would like to repost a response I wrote to someone else complaining of the same:
http://littlegreenfo...
While not subhuman, these pathetic creatures have been brainwashed to the point that even the most ingrained and innate self-preservation responses -- maternal instinct, abhorrence of suicide and murder -- have been wiped from their psyches.
The biggest majority of Jordyptians approve of homicide bombings and the the quest for the destruction of Israel. They send their children to kill themselves in order to murder Israeli women and children. They rejoice at the deaths of thousands of civilians, they cheer when Israeli victims are brought into the hospital. They lie, cheat, and steal to gain their ends, and believe with all honesty that these methods are just.
While technically homosapiens, genetically, morally, psychologically, and socially, Jordyptians are not truly members of the human race.
I don't advocate the wholesale murder of Jordyptians. I do not, however, harbor any illusions that the present generation of Jordyptians nor the next two up coming generations have any hope of changing their behavior or society for the better.
Until the death cult that drives their self-destruction is dismantled and utterly destroyed, there is no hope that Jordyptians or the Muslim world in general will be able to join civilized society.
And part of those "most ingrained and innate self-preservation responses" includes the reluctance to handle mutiliated, burned, and most importantly, dead human flesh.
Humans know, almost on a genetic level, that dead bodies are not to be trifled with. That's why nature created that lovely smell to go along with a dead body: "STOP. DO NOT TOUCH. HARMFUL" , is what that smell tells you.
Have you ever smelled burning flesh and hair? Seen a charred or dismembered body? Gotten a whiff of a rotting corpse?
If you have, you would know why the car swarms are the antithesis of civilized, rational, "human" behavior.
Don't demonize those who call this behavior what it is. Your vitriol should be reserved for those who encourage this madness and the belief system that creates it.
Don't demonize those who call this behavior what it is. Your vitriol should be reserved for those who encourage this madness and the belief system that creates it.
You said it true.
The belief system must be destroyed. And if not for ourselves then for the minority of islamists who are suffering their brethrens dictatorship and cult of violence. The Left never, ever, thinks of the victims. They can only think of themselves.
In all seriousness, this was so far the best exchange I've come across yet. I was barely able to keep up and I was more and more impressed with every post.
"In all seriousness, this was so far the best exchange I've come across yet."
And then it all fall apart at the end with "They [Palestinians] lie, cheat, and steal to gain their ends, and believe with all honesty that these methods are just. While technically homosapiens, genetically, morally, psychologically, and socially, Jordyptians are not truly members of the human race." (#187 Celissa)
I'm pretty sure that throughout Europe the same thing has been said of the Gypsies, if not the Jews . . .
Oh, but the Jews are innocent and the Palestinians are guilty. Oh I get it now.
/sarcasm
Cool trick: replace the word "Jordyptians" with "Jews" and you can get yourself blocked on LGF. And Charles isn't even Jewish.
#191 Josh: you know, you're really sounding like a jerk now.
#190 osasha: to be honest I find the topic too sad really. So in the end, whatever one can argue from this kind of behaviour, whatever conclusions one can draw, the only thing that stands out for me is that it's sooo sad. Seeing those kids, teenagers.... in Japan they'd be swarming around some soccer player or rockstar. and I used to consider *that* fanatical behaviour...
"They [Palestinians] lie, cheat, and steal to gain their ends, and believe with all honesty that these methods are just. While technically homosapiens, genetically, morally, psychologically, and socially, Jordyptians are not truly members of the human race."
I think first sentence describes a sad reality.
I think second sentence is deplorable.
There are distinctions, though. When sentence like this is pronounced as a result of cool consideration, I find it absolutely abhorrent and unacceptable. When it's shouted out after learning about another act of terror, I wouldn't criticize, but try to offer consolation.
Very likely it's just as you said: given a better choice, those chidren would swarm around something or somebody else, than stupid gun-toting masked hooligans or charred cars. They would swarm around teenage idols or cool roadsters, which would be so much better!
How long has it been since the last homicidal bombing?
Sitting here, reading thoughts of reasonable people discussing meaningful things, one can almost see a glimmer of hope. And yet it is certain that the next insane atrocity is coming, may be already taking place right now. May be that's why so many people are so negative: it's sheer hell to lose hope every few days. When you keep negative, bad news must be somewhat easier to take.
Josh, you are making the mistake of assuming that sounding like 1930's Germany is automatically wrong... consciously or not you are placing the palestinians and jews on the same moral plane.
If a court of law sentenced an innocent man to death and he was executed, it's no reason to never talk about murderers, "because it sounds just like that other case". And just because all men are born equal with the same rights, doesn't mean that they must be treated as equal and equivalent throughout their lives no matter what they do. I certainly don't think that a german-like "endlosnung" is the way to handle palis... there are some things even murderers don't deserve... but some adjectives the germans used may well be fitting now, even if they weren't then...
There are certain facts about the palestinians one should come to accept;
- their overwhelming majority wants jews dead first, and probably quite a lot of them wouldn't mind if a whole bunch of american christians died with them. And not just dead and out of the way, but they are exhilarated by the sight of death, blood and guts.
- the above is not a reaction to "occupation" or any other supposed israeli evil... not even a political ideology imposed by their leaders. It is a religious, cultural trait, as such all but irreversible in an adult, having become part of what they are.
- the two above make them a threat, and I dare say ab-human.
- dealing with them as if they were normal humans with the values, morals and logic of normal humans is bound to fail.
I see a lot of people coming to grasp the disgusting reality of palestinian culture and psyche... but remaining reluctant to accept what it truly means. And that's fine, only proof that one is a normal human being. Eventually, though, pleasant but false daydreams must be pushed aside. One must apply logic to important questions even if it feels difficult or even disgusting at times. And being rational may well mean eventually getting in some ways very 'German' on the palis, I'm afraid.
And now I want to make something very clear to those lefties who probably want to blame me for nazism on the palis by now: even in the most extreme scenario, if it comes to a them or us situation... there is never an excuse for fully nazi-like behavior. There is a difference between reluctantly performing a gruesome necessity in the least bad way possible -- for example executing murderers, or dropping the A-bomb in Hiroshima -- and sinking into blood, torture, inhumanity and violence like germans and palestinians. That line must never be crossed, whatever the necessities of security and survival may demand. But necessity may demand some harsh measures with a culture that is rotten and evil to it's core.
Accepting reality is sometimes hard thing to do, but it's no excuse to not accept it.
Josh, as usual you took one line out of context and tried to imply that it summed up the whole thing. Not that I'm surprised...
Suit yourself. But if you have any interest in getting the point I was trying to make, try to get this line:
there is never an excuse for fully nazi-like behavior and read my post #199 again with that in mind.
Particularly make sure you also understand this last chapter:
And now I want to make something very clear to those lefties who probably want to blame me for nazism on the palis by now: even in the most extreme scenario, if it comes to a them or us situation... there is never an excuse for fully nazi-like behavior. There is a difference between reluctantly performing a gruesome necessity in the least bad way possible -- for example executing murderers, or dropping the A-bomb in Hiroshima -- and sinking into blood, torture, inhumanity and violence like germans and palestinians. That line must never be crossed, whatever the necessities of security and survival may demand. But necessity may demand some harsh measures with a culture that is rotten and evil to it's core.
The sad reality is that if a massive amount of muslims need to be wiped out, some decent people will inevitably perish with the majority of those who deserved it. But that's the way it is... I'm sure that not everyone burned in Dresden or Hiroshima deserved that fate, either. It was still necessary.
"Josh, as usual you took one line out of context and tried to imply that it summed up the whole thing. Not that I'm surprised... "
Then I'll take another line: "There is a difference between reluctantly performing a gruesome necessity in the least bad way possible." (#199 Jan) This sounds like an interesting article from this week's Onion entitled "Genocide is such a Harsh Word."
I think using nukes at the right time is absolutely appropriate, no connection with "genocide" there. There's a lot to be said for the nukes. Overall effect of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was certainly positive. Nukes kept the world from descending into wholesale planetwide slaughter since 1945. Nukes are precious in right hands.
I think present day hysterical madness of Palestinians can not be called "religious, cultural trait", it's too short for that. Don't forget, so far we are gaining advantage in that struggle, without resorting to any extreme measures. If we will succeed, this hysteria might fade away in 10-20 years.
I don't understand what is the problem with Nazi phraseology. Just throw it all out! Who needs it, really?
"Germany in 1930 was the Weimar Republic. Economically bad, but not morally." Let's split the baby down the middle. Kristallnacht was 1938 and the result of a spark that ignited a very present anti-Semitism.
Why? In 1932 the moral bankrupcy began. By 1934 Germany was morally bankrupt. In 1930 the writing was on the wall -- the influence of the NSDAP was small, but growing.
I guess something got lost in "translation." It appears from my readingof the thread that you didn't think Germany so foul in the 1930s. Hatchet buried.
Guys, let me add a few details to the incident.It was not a security guard who was murdered, it was a Bezek(the Israeli govrenment owned telecommunication company) technician, who was called to perform a repair job in the Arab-Israeli village.
The 15 year old assailant shot his victim from zero range.He approached the unsuspecting technician and fired through the driver side window's glass.
Israeli ambulance/hospital/medical staff took care of the teen murderer, after he was shot by the guard who escorted the technician.The treatment is funded by Israeli taxpayers money(why?why?). I hope the ambulance driver drove slowly, and the kid who is in critical condition won't survive.
Next in line:The Palestinian Society presents suicide babies;you replace diapers with explosive belts and throw them at patrons of crowded restaurants.We are still waiting for the suicide pregnant women who will sneak through army check points on their way to blow up hospitals.There is so much to do and so little time when you have a Palestinian creative mind.
The 15 year old assailant shot his victim from zero range.He approached the unsuspecting technician and fired through the driver side window's glass.
I feel sick from that. I don't know what the Palestinians hope to achieve as a people, as a society, if at the age of 15, their youth are already that cold-blooded! A natural graduation from throwing stones? The Palestinians are never going to progress if they continue to play the victim for the world while being psychotic mass-murderers in reality. They are their own worst enemy.
Additional information: the Bezek technician was not scheduled to go there. He did go as a personal favor to an Arab shopkeeper, who needed his phone repaired.
"I don't know what the Palestinians hope to achieve as a people, as a society, if at the age of 15, their youth are already that cold-blooded!"
There are juvenile criminals at all parts of Earth; knifing or shooting people on a dare or on a small bet, even much younger than 15. Certain percentage of human race.
There are juvenile criminals at all parts of Earth; knifing or shooting people on a dare or on a small bet, even much younger than 15. Certain percentage of human race.
Yeah, but in most societies, horror and grief and outrage are expressed when a youth commits a violent crime. The Palestinians bring their children up to be cold-blooded murderers, to slaughter Jews. The Palestinians didn't kill this man on a small bet or as a dare, they killed him because he was a Jew and that is what they're taught to do. Do I really need to explain the difference to you?
"...in most societies, horror and grief and outrage are expressed when a youth commits a violent crime."
I wish it was true. In US any murderer can be excused and even glorified if he can be proven "oppressed" and "real victim" of big bad "society". There was very little "grief and outrage" about DC "sniper" boy. He might be set free yet.
I don't want to argue what real motives of this particular boy-murderer were in this case, you may be very close to the truth by supposing that he was "trained" to kill Jews.
I still don't see those street swarms and random shootings as an integral part of a real all out war against the Jews (and I agree that the real war is going on, too). I think it looks closer to US inner-city riots, stretched in perpetuity. Of course, Jewish passer-bys are in grave danger, just as regular white people can be assaulted and murdered by a mob in any big US city, if they take a wrong turn driving home, when the riots are raging. I still see those gun-toting masked youth simply as stupid hooligans who crawl back into their filthy holes after cameras are turned off. Of course the most insane of them are recruited for homicide acts by real terror masters.
When I posted about human nature, I didn't want to diminish threat that Jewish people face in Palestine. I simply remember very vividly from my own observations how easily young people may take a life of crime and go all the way to murder very quickly. This is part of human nature.
Let's face it, without such brutal inner tendencies in all people everywhere, we wouldn't have conflicts in any part of the world.
I still maintain that you are trying to draw an extremely tenuous parallel here.
There was very little "grief and outrage" about DC "sniper" boy.
Firstly, that was a serial killer and his side-kick. Secondly, maybe you and I watched different channels, but I saw plenty of grief and outrage. The entire state just about shut down until they were caught!
Of course, Jewish passer-bys are in grave danger, just as regular white people can be assaulted and murdered by a mob in any big US city, if they take a wrong turn driving home, when the riots are raging.
Only white people get assaulted by mobs in US cities? This was not a mob, not a riot, it was a man driving to a job. I am talking specifically about this man. Read what Israeli in Toronto wrote:
Guys, let me add a few details to the incident.It was not a security guard who was murdered, it was a Bezek(the Israeli govrenment owned telecommunication company) technician, who was called to perform a repair job in the Arab-Israeli village. The 15 year old assailant shot his victim from zero range.He approached the unsuspecting technician and fired through the driver side window's glass.
Rioting in the US is not an everyday occurrence, and I would be surprised to hear of a riot in the US that was organized and all participants showed up with their machine guns.
When I posted about human nature, I didn't want to diminish threat that Jewish people face in Palestine.
I don't mean to pick on you alone about this, but it's unbelievable to see how insidious the Palestinian propaganda is. There is no "Palestine".
I simply remember very vividly from my own observations how easily young people may take a life of crime and go all the way to murder very quickly. This is part of human nature.
I'm not sure about it being "part of human nature" as such but yes, teenagers are susceptible to peer pressure and should they land up in the wrong crowd, there is every chance that may lead to crime or worse. However, we don't celebrate these kids, make "martyrs" and heroes out of them. This 15-year old Palestinian didn't murder this man as a dare, or on a small bet, as you said in your previous post, he was most likely trained to be a murderer from birth. I may be completely wrong and it was done as a dare, but chances are slim. It's a death cult, very different from any society in the US.
I never suggested that this murder was not an anti-jewish act. Whatever the reason was, the target most certainly had to be a Jew, I never questioned that fact. I simply said that Palestinians are far from being unique in having cold-blooded 15 year old killers in their society: this is very common everywhere. I intended that as a passing comment on human nature.
I resented your interpretation of my words as an attempt to whitewash the appaling anti-jewish hysteria among Palestinians. I'm sufficiently informed about the situation and I never offer excuses for anybody. I also resented your didactic tone.
I understand that you feel passionate about the cause of Israel. Israel has many real enemies; I am not one of them.
I have no idea I was offending anyone by mentioning "Palestine". Please explain what is wrong with this?
It's offensive because there is no "Palestine". It doesn't exist and the territories are not "occupied", they're disputed. I understand that you were not trying to be offensive, my comment was more about the devious Palestinian PR-machine.
If you don't think that one can be killed in US simply by taking a wrong turn on the way home, you have no idea about life in US.
You have very remote idea about real life in the streets.
I was trying to make the point that while there are certainly 15-year olds in the US who commit violent crimes, it is not acceptable behaviour in our societies. Those youths are not indoctrinated by society to become murderers.
(#217)
I simply said that Palestinians are far from being unique in having cold-blooded 15 year old killers in their society: this is very common everywhere.
While I may agree that 15-year old murderers are not unique to the Palestinian society, I do not believe they are "very common everywhere". That's all I was saying.
I resented your interpretation of my words as an attempt to whitewash the appaling anti-jewish hysteria among Palestinians.
I didn't think you were whitewashing the Palestinian violence and I wasn't interpreting your words. I just don't agree with your view that it's as common in a US society as it in a Palestinian one.
I'm sufficiently informed about the situation and I never offer excuses for anybody. I also resented your didactic tone.
I am entitled to disagree with you. I apologize if my style is not gentle enough for you. I do, however, think that you're interpreting my words incorrectly. But resent away.
"""Hord mentality in it's finest. This people(?) show us the nature and character that developes under the "divine guidance" of Islam and Arab dictatorship. """
the above just one of many perverted comments on these photos -- as if it wasn't enough just posting them with a mocking title.
i didn't see any difference between these images and, say, images of the crowds that developed around the bombed us embassy in nairobi. it seems to be a normal response -- to rush to the scene of a bombing or catastrophy, to help or just to bear witness, especially in places where there are unreliable emergency services.
it seems the deeper an emotional investment one has in one side in a conflict, the harder it is to accept or see the similarity and humanity of the other side.
this weblogger and his fans seem to hate palestinians so much that they take any opportunity to delight in their suffering.
i second an earlier comment regarding the selective screening of reader comments.
This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.
Carl Orestes Franzoni...is *freaky* down to his toe nails. Some day he will live next door to you and your lawn will die. -- Liner notes for "Hungry Freaks, Daddy" on "Freak Out!"
frank says:
