why does this administration keep see-sawing back and forth in their support of Israel. I truly believe that Bush will listen to the State Department and slowly but surely abandon Israel.

Wahhhh.

I hope Sharon finishes that fence ASAP.

Have a bit of faith. Bush is not going to abandon Israel. He has to show a little pressure on Israel for public consumption, but actions speak much louder then words, and the US has shown no sign of doing anything physically hurtful to Israel the way Bush's father did.

Rice, during a meeting with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the inner cabinet, expressed US concern that the fence was creating facts on the ground that would prejudge a final settlement, and indicated the US would like to see construction stopped as a confidence building measure.

Well, if I was a homicidal islamabaddy, having Uncle Sam pressure lsrael into leaving the gate open would be a "confidence building measure"!

There are quite a few LGF expansionist Zionists who go herpentile over the mention of a fence on the West Bank, as well as Pal terrorists.

The bigger and better Eretz Israel faction had no problem with fencing in Gaza...no one wants Gaza...but are the folks who have blocked a Fence on the West Bank because Settlers would end up on the other side of the Fence. Better a porous border and a large death toll than give up on the dream...........

"There are quite a few LGF expansionist Zionists who go herpentile over the mention of a fence on the West Bank, as well as Pal terrorists."

So why is Rice going "herpentile" too? Is she an expansionist Zionist sympathizer or a Pal terrorist sympathizer?

"He has to show a little pressure on Israel for public consumption"

Which public? Americans support Israel generally, as does Congress.

Do you mean for foreign public consumption?

Just Say No to more dead Jews for foreign public consumption!

#6 James
It's best to ignore he who shall not be named.

Charles
You have a post to delete here if you don't mind.

Pardon for asking; but can`t find the word "herpentile" in Merriam-Webster. What on earth does it mean?

Of course the fence is only a problem if he wants areas on the Western side of the fence. Just another sign that
the more of less 1967 lines with some security areas added idea is not something the PLO is willing to accept.

I wonder how many diplomats and politicians live in gated communities? Tear them down! Its an insult to the riff raff you intend to keep out.

#10

Main Entry: her·pen·tile
Pronunciation: 'h&r-p;&n-;"tEl, -"tIl
Function: adjective
Etymology: French, from Italian, from herpent herpant, from Latin herpent-, from present participle of herpanti
Date: 1642
1 : of or relating to herpents

________________________

He made it up.

#10 naive

Runnybottom has genital warts....

(herpentail)

Spend much time on the public buses during your stay in Israel Condi?

reaganite: yep. "Justin" is a British pest from Sheffield who checks in every so often, to defend antisemites, demean the intelligence of LGF readers, and denigrate yours truly. He/she/it is now banned.

By the way, another British pest has been trying to post lengthy excerpts from Mein Kampf lately. If it manages to get one through somehow, please don't respond; I'll be deleting garbage like that as soon as I become aware of it.

#9 reaganite

I raced to the reference, but Charles was faster....

I did read it....but I forgot what it was....

wahhhhhhhhhhhh

I need to know...:-)

#14 ploome

Runnybottom has genital warts....

Thanks! *cleaning off the monitor, again!*

#17 ploome
Charles' post #16 more then explained the troll. Just your run of the mill anti-Semite.

I have a suggestion to cure Rice of her unwarranted attitude. Just invite her to stay a couple of months, riding the buses...lets see how long she keeps the attitude she's flailing around now.
If I were Sharon, I would tell her to take a short walk off of a shorter pier. That's insane that she would really think the Israelis will volunteeringly leave themselves wide open for more killing.

Re: #5
Herpetology = The branch of zoology that deals with reptiles and amphibians.
I guess we'd be acting like reptiles.

In the last 33 months more than 250 suicide bombers have entered Israel from the West Bank, while none have entered from Gaza

The Mike's Place bomber went into Israel from gaza.

#21 CastorOil

nah.........Herpentail is too intelligent and educated to make a mistake like that!

dontchathink?

Dreck from Ireland saw him go...

#22 - So what? It still proves the fence is an effective measure.
The very fact that there is so much whining about it in the pali camp proves the fence will be effective.

And of course Howling Banshee™ spouts it's usual anti-Semetic/anti-American rant. And of course, adds nothing to the thread.

"Please don't try and protect yourself by building the security fence."

follows:

"Please don't try and defend yourself by killing terrorists planning and attempting to carry out bombings."

We're just days or weeks away from:

"Please don't try and defend yourselves."

Dyslexic George thinks he can push Israel around becasue, it seems, he can push Israel around.

I think I hate the current administration, but I hate the current Israeli administration even more, for selling out their citizen's lives so cheaply.

If any Israeli politicos are reading this, and I doubt they are (self centered and smug as many tend to be), consider this:

Given the behaviour of the Israeli gov't these last two years, any Jew would be insane to consider moving himself and especially his family to Israel these days. Also, why is it that Aliyah is down, and Israelis are decamping in record numbers?

If Rice can be so easily swayed by Abu Shithead, then the Israeli's are on their own and they should make a lot more public (ie Egyptian govt. aid to palis for arms smuggling, al-Qaeda in the West Bank) and maybe not be so quick to cooperate with those in the US government who by design (STate Dept.), stupidity (Colin Powell) or naivity (Rice) are leading the Israelis on the road to destruction.
And Ranbutan, why don't you spend sometime in Israel riding the buses and communing with your beloved pali friends. You might even meet Adam Shapiro, no doubt YOUR kind of jewboy.

you dont think Runnybottom would compare Jooos to reptiles would you.?

nah...

VFI

"The Mike's Place bomber went into Israel from gaza."

The exception that proves the rule. A suicide bombing or two originated in Israel proper.

BTW, did you read about how racist Ireland is?

"Earlier this year, the Equality Commission said racist attacks in Northern Ireland were running at a higher level than in England and Wales. "

http://news.bbc.co.u...

Seems like you don't want to own up to uncomfortable facts.

#23 ploome - I don't know if it's a mistake, but a compliment it ain't.

Shalom, when talking about the need for the Palestinians to put an end to incitement, made reference to an article that appeared in the PA's official newspaper, Al-Ayyam, last week that launched a scathing attack on Rice, calling her a 'black widow' and a 'single black lady.'

According to Israeli officials, Rice responded that she is aware of the article and found it "shocking."

And.....

It didn't change a thing.

What would've happend if Israel said something viperous to her?

ARGH!!!!!!!!!

JG

#25   CastorOil

Just pointing out that statement is incorrect.

here's another gaza suicide bombing in Israel.

http://www.ict.org.i...

#30   James

Yes, there's a nasty stream of racism running through some loyalists. What with the links to the BNP and so on.

Yo! Don't be thinking for one moment Dr. Rice is,
a)nieve or
b) stupid.

She is playing the dirty game of International Diplomacy, because she has to right now.

I don't think anyone ever got any bullshit past Dr.Rice.

She knows what is going on, just like anyone on this blog knows what is going on.

#34 VFI

Forgot to mention it on Friday, didn't you?

"The fence creates facts on the ground."

Rice should be more concerned preventing more corpses in the ground.

Don't ignore the old saying that fences make good neighbors.

Israel is a sovereign country, in full command of her own destiny. NO other country including the United States has any business going there and telling them how to run their country. If the current government is unhappy with Israel's policies, then stay the hell away. You know damned well and good if we were living in the same kind of horrific situation that a call to arms would have long ago gone up, and there would have been unprecedented rounding up of and shipping out of suspected terrorists.
If I was Sharon and Rice told me that to my face, I would have told her to butt out. Its getting tiresome listening to these ivory tower residences judging how others in jeapordy should be handling such a critical set of circumstances.

Howling Banshee™ brings up two incidents out of two hundred and fifty and somehow thinks this proves anything but the walls work.

Howling Banshee™
Why do you come here? No one but the trolls (yourself included) think you add anything of value. The vast majority of LGF, in the words of Dennis Miller, wonder why you won't "just shut the f*ck up."

#7 James

"He has to show a little pressure on Israel for public consumption"

Yah, right. As if there is not enough pressure already?
Come on-
These words do not help Israel one bit. The only
one this helps is so-called main stream media and rest Israel's enemies. (which is about the entire world)

Can you come up with a better rationalization?
BTW: My dictionary defines rationalization as a LIE.
How do you plan on rationalizing *THIS*

What did the US President’s national security adviser Condoleezza Rice really come to the Middle East for? To get the Abu Mazen-Dahlan team started on the war against Palestinian terror? Not a chance. They presented her with a list of demands a mile long when she met the duo in Jericho on Saturday, June 28. They also informed her that a partial, temporary, conditional truce was their limit. If that would not do, the Palestinians would turn to the international community for guarantees and a large buffer force to take over Washington’s role as go-between. What about the withdrawal of Israeli troops from the Gaza Strip and Bethlehem? That package was neatly tied up well in advance of the presidential adviser’s visit - as DEBKAfile reported on June 16.

DEBKAfile’s political sources have discovered that Rice had quite different fish to fry during her day in Israel - Sunday, June 29, namely the remaking of Ariel Sharon’s government.

Foreign minister Silvan Shalom was handed the first pink slip.

I'm disgusted!

conventcow logged off, and she logged in......

coinkydinky...?

#36   James

Those loyalists wouldn't consider themselves Irish. They're British.

I doon't deny for a moment we have racists here like everywhere eslse though (and I've pointed this out before on these very pages). Try to keep up.

It's high time for Israel to respond to these alleged behind the scenes threats with some behind the scenes threats of its own.

You know when an animal is dangerous? When it's backed into a corner.

The world must be given to understand that the more they limit Israel's options the more dangerous Israel becomes. Would they really like Sharon and Israel to act as they are already type cast? In their worst nightmare. So it's time to back off Israel.

#40 selpaw

"He has to show a little pressure on Israel for public consumption" was something I quoted. I didn't say that.

#42 VFI

Passing the buck, are you? And I suppose the French anitsemites are really Moslem?

The Bush Palestinian policy is so stupid, so doomed to failure and that failure is so predictable, the question that stumps me is what is the Bush Administration i>really up to?<

From Debka. If true, Israel will have to change it's flag to this.

For the first time in military history, a defense line was thus called up to serve both as a red herring and a substitute for military action to eliminate terrorists. The Sharon government has clearly bowed to the Bush government’s demand to give up fighting terror. Under assault now is a poor substitute, the partially built static defense line that is no proof against continuing terrorist incursions.

In a private conversation at the Aqaba summit on June 4, we are told of a remark Bush made to Sharon suggesting that, in keeping with Israel’s new relationship with the Palestinians and the onset of a new Middle East, it might be a good idea to rid his government of its right wing coalition partners and replace them with the more amenable opposition Labor party.

Before leaving Jerusalem therefore, Rice met Shalom privately to broach a delicate request: Would he mind vacating his ministerial seat in favor of Peres?

From www.dictionary.com:

"Zi·on·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (z-nzm)
n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel."

What does #5 find so objectionable about being a Zionist?

"No entry found for herpentile."

"No entry found for Likudnik," another Ranbutan term.

One suspects the real objection is that Israel has any borders at all.

#41   ploome

That's right. It's all a big conspiracy between me and the sloanie. I admit it all!

#44   James

Not passing the buck. Just pointing out what you would have seen if you actually read the link you posted. That and the erroneous suggestion that I pretend this country is something it's not. You all clear now?

and the squirrel said to the moose:
"Now here's something we hope you'll really like."

The spirit of St. Pancake lives on!

AMMAN, June 29 (IslamOnline.net) - The family of U.S. peace activist Rachel Corrie, who was killed last March in the occupied Palestinian town of Rafah when an Israeli Caterpillar bulldozer ran over her, are set to lay the foundations of a pro-Palestinians organization that would carry her name and will sue the Israeli army, chairman and co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) Adam Shapiro said Saturday, June28 .

Cyprus has had a wall dividing the Greek side from the Turkish side for almost 3 decades:

Nearly 200,000 Greek Cypriots fled to the southern part of the island after Turkish soldiers occupied the north in 1974 in an attempt to counter a Greek Cypriot coup supported by Athens. Since then Greek Cypriots have hardly had the opportunity to visit the north, which is divided from the south by the U.N. patrolled "Green Line," the 180 km (120 miles) long line of ceasefire.
Unlike the Berlin Wall, the "Green Line" serves to keep the two peoples apart, not as a sort of prison. Cypriots in north and south are free to travel beyond the island.

They had a wall and it worked. And it seems that people had cooled off on either side and are now opening up to each other. Many are going to visit the homes they lost on the other side.
It's been done before and it was successful.
http://www.dw-world....

...and dismantling the fence from the inside too.

You have got to be kidding! Is she as adamant as the palestinians on the total destruction of Israel? What is she, a closet muslim? I don't remember her being voted into office in Isreal do you?
I think I've just changed my mind about ever voting her into office on any level.

Oops, sorry about the duplication folks. It was twenty entries ago when I started. Think I'll go swallow a couple of go-faster youth pills.

(45 ) jabba the nutt

The Bush Palestinian policy is so stupid, so doomed to failure and that failure is so predictable, the question that stumps me is what is the Bush Administration i>really up to?

Rather then everyone rationalizing this in one
nonsensical laughable way after another or making
excuses that this is some kind of a game, etc., would
be better served to demand answers. Apply pressure!
Do it for the dead and do it for their families.
In the last 24 hrs thousands of letters have been sent
flooding fax machines and e-mails on capitol hill
and the White House with a target of close to 50,000
by Tuesday.

There are very influential conservatives who have stepped up to the plate and will not be silenced even if it is bad for their party.
G-d bless them!
If Republicans remain silent for fear of hurting Bush
in his chances for re-election then once again a repeat
of history might very well take place as was before when Jews were marched to slaughter.

This is a very serious situation. The lives
of every Israeli is on the line. They urgently
need your support.
I pray everyone screams loud and with conviction.
Start writing. Demand answers.

#47 -Leslein - Likudnik is in common political usage. Going herpentile is a polite form in the vernacular for " going snakeshit".

Straying slightly from the polite:

#14 Ploome: #10 naive

(herpentail)

A different virus than herpes, Ploome...but one would think that you would jump on such a French Tickler...

"No entry found for Likudnik"

Don't know about others, but I would rather count myself a Moledet-nik.

(BTW, Moledet also seems to be admirably free of -- or at least rather light on -- the black-hattery. Not to the extent of Shinui, of course, but still.)

Hey, pushing Israel around ain't gonna help american policy. They'll still be picking off marines one or two at a time in Iraq 5 years from now, and Sauds will still be crapping in our soup as long as they see the US happy to lean on Israel while pay to have Israelis killed wholesale.

I think the problem with RunnyBottom is that he believes it all reduces to the settlemetns, conveniently ignoring and obfuscating, thru talk of 'aquifers' and 'water seizures', the fact that these territories fell to Israel in defensive war, and which she tried to return in exchange for peace many times.

But Mr. Amateur Realpolitic feels the past is irrelevant, and let's just understand that the US will do what it needs to do, for itself. Now.

Problem is that kissing arab terrorist and terrorist supporter butt ain't gonna further american policy.

Rice responded by saying that even though Israel claims the fence is not a political border, the fence creates facts on the ground and is seen in the eyes of the Palestinians as a political boundary and may create problems in the future.

So Palestinians are murdering Jews, they can bareley even agree to a Cease Fire let alone meeting the requirements of the Road Map dismantlement of Terrorist Organizations and ENDING Incitement.
So instead of Rice's answer being:

"You agreed to the Roadmap and we don't see any results. You haven't even addressed dismantlement of Terrorist organizations and haven't gotten a full cease fire even yet? The fence makes it harder for terrorism to succeed which ultimately kills any chance for progress. So if you can't stop terrorism why should we tell Israel to stop building a fence? And if we persay did what are you going to give me for this? And what should a persay penalty be for any Palestinian violation of the Roadmap mainly in the areas of terrorism? You want but what can you give us? The time for free "good will" gestures are over. We got a Mass Murderer relased from prison and Israel is willing to pull back from towns in Gaza to give you a chance to stop violence there.

Instead the answer to Mr. Abbas is:

(Israel needs to stop building the fence because it) creates facts on the ground and is seen in the eyes of the Palestinians as a political boundary and may create problems in the future.

Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas reportedly spent a lot of time in his meeting Saturday night with Rice complaining that the fence is usurping Palestinian land and creating a border that will severely limit a Palestinian state.

I thought the meeting was going to be about how the Palestinians are going to implement the fucking ROADMAP -

End incitement and murdering and violence and dismantling of the Terrorist Organizations

While NONE OF THIS is being done they want want want want from Israel and now want Israel another confidence building measure from Israel. They want a fence to stop being built which will help prevent Arabs from murdering Jews, since they can't/don't want to stop doing it. Score points for Arafat and his puppet.

The ROADMAP I think it was called like all other agreements is meaningless already. Score points for Arafat as usual.

#5

Better a large death toll than to give up on the dream? What planet are you from?
The dead cannot dream and the death toll is already higher than it ever should have been.

You're an idiot.

Totally off topic:

I'm hoping the LGF family can help me find out about this:

A music video (of sorts) that has been playing on my local PBS station - NOT the Chicago 'big' one. It consists of a violinist -famous European muscian but I can't recall his name - shows the violinist on Normandy beach while a soprano sings a song containing among the lyrics: "America! You sent your young men! They gave their lives and filled the graves..." As it shows a cemetary in France (?). Also shown are clips from D-Day. The violinist touches the sand with reverence. Then the song goes on to express sympathy for 9/11. I hope this is enough description.

I would like to know: Who's idea was this video? Who produced it and who distributed it in the US? Really, anything that anyone can tell me. It is very powerful and I would like to thank those responsible. Please reply to my E-mail to keep this from wasting (more of) everyones' time at LGF!

Did Condy Rice come from the North Pole in a sleigh pulled by 12 reindeer, and got her list mixed up?

#28 So much for the standard LGF "goddess Condi", and "Condi has nice legs", and "Condi is so bright," blah, blah.

#60 Gail
I can't help you, except you should call the PBS station (e-mail?) they should be able to help you.

Saudi aquiescence to a permanent or essentially permanent American presence in Iraq is being bought with this roadmap bullshit.

The question I have is why is the US still feeling the need to suck up to the saudis, instead of supporitn people who want them swinging from lamposts?

Unfortunately, it is the bush-saudi alliance that is driving this bus, and it looks like 'a certain black lady' has bought a ticket, happy to become a more presentable 'James Baker' for the new generation.

Yeah yeah, it's a little tin-foil-ish, but when it comes to bush family/saudi maneouverings . . .

That debka article (if it's true. I guess we'll find out if/when Peres joins Sharon's government) has me so dizzy I'm hoping I'm still thinking straight.

First, according to the article, the idea to install Peres was Bush's not Rice's.

And second, is it customary for a democracy (even a super-power democracy) to dictate who is to be in the government of another democracy - especially a (supposed) ally?

Aside from being morally and ethically wrong, are there any (U.S.) laws being broken here?

littleoldlady

#65

Was thinking the same thing.

Is Israel a sovereign country or the 51st state of the USA?

JG

Sorry if the correct meaning of "herpentile" was decoded and posted earlier. Problem number 1 is that the writer mispelled the intended word, which was "hermantile". Unfortunately the online Dictionary does not include it. I used it all the time as a kid, substituting it for ape-shit. Heard it spoken many time with the same meaning. Example of correct usage: "If that fucking dog shits on the rug one more time I'm going to go hermantile."

sf

#66 JG
"Is Israel a sovereign country or the 51st state of the USA?"

I don't believe the federal government is even allowed to exert that kind of pressure on any of the 50 states!

littleoldlady

does anyone believe tha Pali's deserve their own country ? It seems to be the only way to stop the violence without exterminating them all

#69

Creating a new Arab dicatorship inside Israel, one that bisects it, is going to stop their violence against non-Muslims?

I think the only way to stop their violence is to stop selling them weapons, and try to keep them isolated in their own countries until they grow up, in say 300 to 500 years.

They have philosophical issues they need to sort out amongst themselves.

#69 Just Wondering

does anyone believe tha Pali's deserve their own country ? It seems to be the only way to stop the violence without exterminating them all

I don't think the palis deserve more than 48 hours notice before homocidal turds are ordered to get the f*ck out.

________________________________________ ___

Transfer

#62 Davesax

Yep.

#69Just Wondering,

Why on earth would you think the creation of a Palestinian state would stop the violence? To what evidence/history/theory would you refer?

Oh s*it who the hell am I going to vote for now in '04.
I just hope she knows what we know. It isn't going to last. And all bets are off.....as far as the Israelis are concerned. Actually, this could be a blessing in disguise.

The facts on the ground are that sub national entities are attacking Israel, If Palestinians want the fence building to stop , maybe they should show some good faith by stopping the cowardly terror bombing.

So to sum up, 48 hours after all palestinian attacks stop, the fench construction should be delayed, and as each new attack happens, another 48 hours of fence building will take place.....

I will let you postulate which will come first, peace in the mid east or a finished fence around the west bank...

#69 Just Wondering

Take a good hard look at the PA maps and you will find that the real problem is not that the palistinians aren't allowed to have a state, the problem is that the Pals think the whole of Israel is the Pal state.

Now wouldn't it be so much nicer if the pals (i.e.: arabs) would recognize that Israel is a state?

"It seems to be the only way to stop the violence without exterminating them all."

....anyone watching A&E; about the Holocaust

#77
Thanks.... I wanted to watch this......

It would seem that Abbas/PA is now holding the US hostage. Abbas is apparently trying to decide under what terms he would be willing to meet with George Bush!

So, instead of ending up dead or in prison, the members of the pal thugocracy get to dictate under which circumstances they are prepared to do the US a favour and move forward on this raodmap!

What's wrong with this picture?

There must be some real quid pro quo shit going on here re the US, Saudi, and the Iraq situation, and the pals are riding it for all it's worth.

Many here have said it, many times before.

Israel is being asked//forced to pay the price for arab aquiescence to the Iraq action.

Palestinians have facts on the ground.

Israeli graves.

If the Debka thing is true, fogedaboudit.

Condoleeza Rice is an over-privileged young woman of limited experience who has swanned her way to the M.E. on the strength of her Whitehouse connections and her place near the President and presumes to opine on subjects of which she has no experience or knowledge and on which she is totally unqualified to comment. She should butt out and go back where she belongs. I hope Sharon told her as much!

THE REAL ISSUE:

Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas reportedly spent a lot of time in his meeting Saturday night with Rice complaining that the fence is usurping Palestinian land and creating a border that will severely limit a Palestinian state

Thats right, the Palestinians wont be able to conquer Tel Aviv and bring about genocide if theres a fence there.

#79 Maine's Michael

There must be some real quid pro quo shit going on here re the US, Saudi, and the Iraq situation, and the pals are riding it for all it's worth.

I have to agree.

The Fraudi's wisdom in buying their way into our government is once again proving itself. Their tottering monarchy, a few thousand inbred descendants of an illiterate camel herder, is about to collapse.

The largely very young, restless population, frustrated by seeing that the wealth that literally flows out of the sand but only into the pockets of the princes to build their palaces and fly to Aspen, has been whipped into a frenzy. The royal's Faustian bargain is ending and the devil wants his due.

Naturally those under the table cloths are fearing that they'll soon face Arab justice. But Dubya and those who have been on the receiving end of the Fraudi blood money fear it more.

Not only is the quid pro quo of being friendly while in government in return for a comfortable Fraudi pension afterward about to end, but for those who have a sincere interest in the world, it could be Iran in 1979 all over again.

The thought of a Wahhibist regime led by foaming-at-the-mouth imams supercharged with oil money is soiling some underwear in Washington.

So keeping Israel from doing what America would do given 1/1000th the provocation seems to be our country's policy from keeping the inevitable Fraudi revolution from finally boiling over.

Transfer

#81 Yael

Yep. International "interposition" force = nukes away.

This worries me.

the BBC

In the end, Mr Blix was frustrated as much by the impatience of Washington and London to intervene in Iraq as he was by alleged attempts by the Iraqis to conceal their weapons programmes.

.......only the "attempts by the Iraqis to conceal" is alleged

feh

#82

Should Sharon have told her to take the 3 billion a year with her also?

#87 RightIsRight

Israel can do without.

"#82

Should Sharon have told her to take the 3 billion a year with her also? "

Personally, I think yes.

But it's not her prerogative. It's from Congresss. They control the purse strings, not her and not Bush.

Do without the support of the US?

Mmmkay.

I agree with support of Israel becuase they are the only democracy in the shit hole Middle East. But I don't hesitate to question where my tax money goes and why it goes there.

Israel on its own with out US help? Good luck

Has it occurred to anyone that this "rift" may be a mirror image of the "conflict" between Arafat and Abu Mazen?

Just a thought.

This 3 billion/year is another of many blunders of the Israeli admin.

It seems to give every runnybottom with an axe to grind, and every quack TV journalist, the right to ask why Israel isn't acting like a vassal state insead of trying to defend it's citizen's lives.

I can't understand why a country with an economy the size of Israel's needs this umbilical cord, which the US jerks Israel around with, occasionally wrapping it around her neck . . .

#90 RightIsRight

Israel on its own with out US help? Good luck

Please read the article linked at the top of this page.

Then tell me how this is 'help'.

It appears that Bush is setting up the Palestinains to sucker punch him during the election season.

Arafish is no doubt seething over the loss of Iraqi patronage and is setting up Bush for a fall.

It will be interesting/unfortunate to see how all this plays out.

#90

"Do without the support of the US?

Mmmkay."

They did alright before the billions came. They did alright under U.S. arms embargo, winning their independence without so much as an American bullet. They won in 1967 with the U.S. staying "neutral".

Caton, I read the entire article.

Let me be more clear. I do not have a problem with sending money to a like minded country such as Israel. That being said, it should not be "blind money".

My country can show definate benefits from its realtionship with Israel. For this I am happy. But I will not agree to writing a check to anyone without having that investment being monitored. That being said, I do have a grave problem with the 2 billion we send to Egypt.

#90 RightIsRight

But I don't hesitate to question where my tax money goes and why it goes there.

Why don't you question where the 2.4 billion a year we give to Egypt goes? Those sandy bastards would slit America's throat given half a chance and it wouldn't matter if America sold Israel down the river either.

Face it, 3 billion a year is a huge bargain for the most reliable (but never mentioned) ally America's got in the region and most of the world.

With all America's done for the Arab world - saving the Kuwaiti's asses, liberating Iraq, keeping Egypt from starving and not nuking Iran and Syria despite the fact that they're begging for it - we've got nothing but hatred and 3,000 dead New Yorkers to show for it.

If it weren't for the oil we buy they'd all starve to death. And we could take it for free (we discovered it) any time we want to.

So if you really give a shit about where your taxes go, ask yourself why more isn't sent to Israel along with explicit instructions to use the next 'splodeydope as an invitation to send a large number of them to Allah's whorehouse.
__________________________

Transfer

#96

"But I will not agree to writing a check to anyone without having that investment being monitored."

You make it sound as if nothing is transparent. Every cent of this money is accounted for, with more than half of it being spent in the United States. There isn't missing money or Israeli policies that are way out of wack. Disagreements are basically minor.

US State Department Palestinian Desk

Condi should have told abu Mazen that the fence doesn't limit the Palestinian state, it delineates it.

Nekama,

Re: Transfer

It will come to it, my friend.

Maybe not today, maybe not tommorow, but soon, and for the rest of our lives.
/Bogie

James,

I didn't mean to imply Israel is "mis-spending" the money. My point was merely to state that the US has an interest in how the money is spent.

Nekema, I assume you posted before you read my #96 post.

I must sleep. Nite all.

Peace and chicken grease.

#96 RightIsRight

Let me be more clear. I do not have a problem with sending money to a like minded country such as Israel. That being said, it should not be "blind money".

Let me be more clear. I have a problem with any American who thinks their help gives them the right to use Jewish blood to appease the Arabs. I'd rather do without any help, than submit to what is effectively blackmail.

My country can show definate benefits from its realtionship with Israel. For this I am happy. But I will not agree to writing a check to anyone without having that investment being monitored.

Do you think the current actions of the U.S. administration are protecting your 'investment'?

#95 James

US aid to Israel has been substantial over the years. I'm weak on the history but I would guess that the '67 war was won with American weaponry that had been provided under liberal financial terms at least. Our provision of aid and arms to Israel is one of the reasons we are able to exert the influence that irks us (here) so.

It also gives persons with sympathies toward the Palestinians a rationale for overseeing and limiting Israeli use of force. And worse, some can use Israel as a pawn to further their own political goals, which may even be somewhat unrelated from the ME situation. That's the realities of politics.

Just in:

What does the Palestinian nation offer the world?

History, in Benedetto Croce's formulation, "is about the positive and not the negative." No one can refute the truth that the Palestinians have fashioned a culture peculiarly their own--but one so steeped in the negative as to have been turned into a kind of anti-history. In order to deprive Jews of their patrimony, Palestinians have fabricated a sectarian narrative alien to commonplace knowledge. Although the Arab invasion of Palestine did not occur until the 17th century, Palestinian Arabs are declared to be, according to activist Salah Jabr, "the descendants of civilizations that have lived in this land since the Stone Age." With equal absurdity, other such deniers of Jewish patrimony claim a Canaanite bloodline. By replacing history with fantasy, the Palestinians have invented a society unlike any other, where hatred trumps bread. They have reared children unlike any other children, removed from ordinary norms and behaviors. And they have been assisted in these deviations by Arab rulers who for half a century have purposefully and pitilessly caged and stigmatized them as refugees, down to the fourth generation. Refugeeism, abetted also by the United Nations, has itself been joined to the Palestinian cult of anti-history. A people respectful of history, including its own above all, will work to fructify and invigorate life; it will not debase and vitiate it.

The salient attribute of any culture is originality and its legacies. Genius, no matter how rare, is a human universal. It sends into the world new perception and new experience, inspiring duplication: Out of Israel came monotheism, out of Greece philosophy, out of Arab civilization science and poetry, out of England the Magna Carta, out of France the Enlightenment. What has been the genius of Palestinian originality, what has been the contribution of the evolving culture of Palestinian sectarianism? On the international scene: airplane hijackings and the murder of American diplomats in the 1970s, Olympic slaughterings and shipboard murders in the 1980s. And toward the Jews of the Holy Land, beginning in the 1920s and continuing until this morning, terror, terror, terror, terror.

The problem with U.S. military aid to Israel is that Israel has to spend it in America.

From 49 PDM's link, some good news:

Shapiro said that Israeli occupation troops denied him access to the Palestinian territories during his visit on Friday, June 27, under the pretext that he "poses a threat to Israel's security."

B'bye.

#104

That's incorrect. Israel's main source for arms prior to 1967 was Europe.

You're speaking of a present situation, in which indeed Israel relies much more heavily on America for arms. My point was this in much more dire circumstances Israel was able to defend its borders and prevail over its enemies without much American support or arms. While obviously it would not be in Israel's interests to lose American support or ability to purchase arms and parts, Israel is not weaker today than it was in 1948 or 1967. There comes a point in which you have to start asking yourself if the blood of your citizens is worth parts for tanks. When push comes to shove, there are other ways. And besides, America's material support for Israel is not on the line now. As I said, its not entirely up to the president -- and he hasn't said its on the line either.

#104 Jimmy the Dimmy

US aid to Israel has been substantial over the years. I'm weak on the history but I would guess that the '67 war was won with American weaponry that had been provided under liberal financial terms at least. Our provision of aid and arms to Israel is one of the reasons we are able to exert the influence that irks us (here) so.

Yes, you're weak on history. 1967 was won with French Mirage, Vautour and Mystère jets, French AMX APCs, British Centurion tanks, and a few (1 brigade) U.S. Patton tanks.

It also gives persons with sympathies toward the Palestinians a rationale for overseeing and limiting Israeli use of force. And worse, some can use Israel as a pawn to further their own political goals, which may even be somewhat unrelated from the ME situation. That's the realities of politics.

The reality is that Israel today would do better without U.S. help.

#104 Jimmy

'67 war was won with American weaponry that had been provided under liberal financial terms at least.

I could be mistaken but I believe there was next to no American aid to Israel prior to '67. Up to that point, Israel's arms supplier was France, who (no surprise) in the initial days of the war when Israel was in dire straights, refused to ship parts and supplies that Israel had paid for.

I seem to recall that it was Nixon at the time, who made an emergency shipment to Israel. And after that America made increasing contributions to Israel's military needs.

That episode taught Israel that it could not rely on any country for its survival, and it became a world leader in arms production.

Imagine how much better off the world would be if Israel wasn't surrounded by hundreds of millions of foaming-at-the-mouth barbarians and that technical skill and investment could go into less lethal productive use?

Transfer

right is right

Do without the support of the US?

didnt you say something about 3 billion.?

when did this change to support....?

Do you have a problem with Israel and USA being allies.?

Do you think you are smarter than the whole of Congress and the Senate and th Cabinet and the Defense establishment of America..?

#106 Yael

The problem with U.S. military aid to Israel is that Israel has to spend it in America.

OTOH no other weapon supplier is reliable either: think France and the U.K. in 1967.

#108 James

As Yael points out, Israel depends on U.S. built weaponry today because of U.S. military aid.

It really looks bad for Israel now that Rice's statements are revealing Bush's lack of confidence and foreign policy experience. It clearly shows that Powell wasn't going off the reservation when he said the same things.

Read Jim Hoagland's piece in today's Washington Post, which hammers at Bush's policy regarding Pakistan--the less that Pakistan does, the more aid Bush throws at Mushareff to get him to do something for us.

It's hard imaginining how someone who can muster the fortitude to invade two countries lacks the courage and talent to follow through on other fronts. But that's what it appears.

He'd rather bully small nations...or just cave to the political opposition--witness the current US budget deficit, now at a historic high, as he becomes more reckless financially than the Democrats ever were just to buy domestic tranquility (rather than defend conservative principles and commitments). Or his refusal to fight for any of his dozens of judicial nominations, which the Democrats have held up in the Senate for more than two years.

Bush is proving to be a more dangerous character than I imagined.

By the way, writing letters and making noise won't make a damn of difference policy wise. To change a politician's mind, you've got to make him/her very frightened. When Jews in America start taking the necessary risks--sich as general strikes, economic boycotts (for longer than one week), civil disobediance and more--is when they will be taken seriously.

Writing letters and checks in response to existential threats is a pathetic joke.

"Writing letters and checks in response to existential threats is a pathetic joke. "

Very true.

Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan.

It's my new mantra.

#115 Alex F

It's my new mantra.

And if, as I suspect, it isn't?

Darlene...........fabulous article....

Confronted by this orgiastic deluge of fanaticism and death, there are some who would apply the term psychopathological.

But it is metaphysics, not Freud, that is at stake: the life force traduced, cultism raised to a sinister spiritualism--not because the "martyrs" are said to earn paradise, but because extraordinary transformations of humane understanding are hounded into being.

A Palestinian ethos of figment and fantasy has successfully infiltrated the West, particularly among intellectuals, who are always seduced by novelty.

We live now with an anti-history wherein cause and effect are reversed, protection against attack is equated with the brutality of attack, existential issues are demoted or ignored--"cycle of violence" obfuscations all zealously embraced by the State Department and the European Union.

#65 - littleoldlady

US involvement in Israeli elections is hardly something new:
(*) Bush senior toppled the Shamir government after GW-I. (refused to provide aid, provided it to Rabin's Labor government)
(*) Clinton toppled the Netanyahu government (personally pressured one of the candidates to withdraw at the very last minute)
(*) Bush junior helped Sharon get re-elected by making him the most frequent guest in the whitehouse. (counts a lot in the mind of the Israeli voter)

The US isn't the only international factor involved in the Israeli elections btw. The EU funds Israeli militant left organizations, (as well as recent elections campains of Labor)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point in GW/Condi paying attention to Abbas is marginalize and ignore Arafat?

Where do y'all think that a person thoroughly steeped in the workings of the Soviet Union wouldn't have a clue on the machinations of Arab "diplomacy?"

#113 Gary Bruce and #115 Alex

Gee I hope there is a grand scheme to all that looks so bleak now.

You've got to wonder how a man who so courageously did what needed doing in Afghanistan and Iraq can be so seemingly obtuse and undeniably hypocritical when it comes to Israel.

I'm believing it is the Saudi problem, and their influence, as I said in #84 above, that is driving this thing.

Dubya believes he can keep the lid on the Saudi pot for the foreseeable future as long as he doesn't do what will appear to the Saudi masses as an unforgivable blow to Arab honor, that is letting Israel do what he knows they have every right to do.

The unfortunate thing is that the longer he waits, the worse it is going to get. With 300,000 troops next door in Iraq, now is the best time to act. And Israel may find itself in a position when it has to act.

Hopefully, Dubya's waiting to get through the next election. What a dangerous and revolting game, played with Jewish lives as pieces on his chessboard.

Transfer

#119 Darleen

What does diplomacy have to do with rebuking Israel for taking a defensive measure with no cost to Palestinian lives or liberty?

#113 gary bruce

Did you see the link right below? Wouldn't you say that Pakistan moving to recognize Israel would be worth supporting/working with Musharraf where possible?

http://www.gulf-dail...

#116 Caton

I don't know what to say. I'm disappointed in everyone regarding the current situation. I'm disappointed in Bush/Rice for not supporting Israel's right to self-defense against terrorism. I'm disappointed in Rummy/Cheney for not giving the young'uns some backbone and decisive clarity they are known for. I'm disappointed in Sharon for not defending Israel. I'm disappointed in Likud for not electing Netanyahu. I'm disappointed in Labor for giving up half of Israel in the first place. I'm disappointed in half of my fellow Americans for not supporting Israel and I'm disappointed in most of the other half for not doing more in their support. I'm disappointed that I cannot do more myself.

I have to continue to have faith that some master plan is being implemented, for I cannot believe that we are being outsmarted by murdering Islamonazi Arabs. I hope against hope that this will work out, but I do not know how anymore.

I'm sick of taking the moral high ground in fighting people who want to exterminate you/us. I'm sick of putting the concerns of American Leftists, Europe and the Arab Street over those of freedom-loving and historically oppressed/persecuted Jews. I'm sick and tired of seeing Jews against more Christian in continually "turning the other cheeck" than my pious president.

I want more fire-and-brimstone, I shall smite thee, old testament style vengeance and reaction. I want to fight to win. I want Jews everywhere to live in peace and security. I want this to be over and over soon, but I do not see it happening unless we get off this hateful roadmap.

I don't know what to do if I'm wrong, that's why I have to keep hoping that I'm not...

#122 Alex

I know the feeling :-(

Caton,

T minus how many hours now and counting?

Transfer

#123 Nekama

158

#120 Nekama

"You've got to wonder how a man who so courageously did what needed doing in Afghanistan and Iraq"

Reminds me of something. Allow me to quote from the last paragraph of Bernard Lewis' newest book, The Crisis of Islam.

Meanwhile, there is a more urgent problem. If the leaders of Al-Qa'ida can persuade the world of Islam to accept their views and leadership, then a long and bitter struggle lies ahead, and not only for America... Sooner or later, Al-Qai'da and related groups will clash with the other neighbors of Islam -- Russia, China, India -- who may prove less squeamish than the Americans in using their power against Muslims and their sanctities. If the fundamentalists are correct in their calculations and succeed in their war, then a dark future awaits the world, especially the part of it that embraces Islam.

I think we may be overestimating what was done in Afghanistan, and certainly in Iraq where our boys are being picked off every day.

#122 Alex F

I don't know what to do if I'm wrong, that's why I have to keep hoping that I'm not...

Well, for me it's simpler. I might be too old and decrepit to go back into the army, but with my own rifle I'm still a better shot that any of those kids. If things go wrong an international "interposition" force will be deployed, in accordance with Arafat's "carrier strategy". Then I'll be needed to reduce that "force"...

Hey, Seven minutes ago... Operation Sidewinder

CAMP BOOM, Iraq - U.S. troops stormed more than 20 Iraqi towns and detained at least 60 suspects in a massive military operation aimed at capturing loyalists to Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and curbing attacks against American soldiers.

Caton

How wonderful to celebrate the 4th of July, which represents triumph over the European yoke, in Eretz Yisroel.

I was hiking in the Pyranees last year on the 4th, and made a special climb to the French border just so I could relieve myself there.

Derech Shalom.

Transfer

Oh, and thanks for the tip about the A&E; program. What a story....

#128 Nekama

Hmmm. Actually, I'm leaving on July 5th, around 10 pm, and will arrive in Tel Aviv on July 22nd :-)

Oh, and the tip about the A&E; program comes from ploome :-)

Caton

I really don't know what to do anymore...I've always been pro-Israel, but the depth of my feelings and my resolve to do something has grown immeasurably since I started dating my girlfriend, the previously mentioned Israeli, who has family she visits in Jerusalem every year.

What's more, not that this matters much here or that she necessarily knows yet, but I think this girl is the one, which means that my kids will be half-Jewish ethnically (leaving the religion question aside for the moment as I am Catholic), so this is brought home in a way I never thought it would.

I dont know what to do if I'm wrong...

I stand corrected re: the planes. Three times no less!

#110 Nekama you are correct (as are Caton and James...) After the french embargo, Israel began purchasing the A4 Skyhawk from the US, the deal had been working for a couple of years, began receiving them in 1967, after the war.

Should googled before instead of after...

#109 Caton

"The reality is that Israel today would do better without U.S. help."

I have to disagree. Look, I don't like the restraints put on Israel either. I wonder why arafuck is still wasting oxygen. And Bush has to make concessions to arabs, which, well...

But look at the geopolitical changes occuring. Iraq down. Syria worried and heavily pressured, in fact they are still in the sights, it would seem. Iran self-absorbed and under various increasing internal and external pressures. Musharraf "persuaded" to at least initiate public discussion in Pak about recognition of Israel. That's pretty significant and will be fun to watch. Egypt bought off (somewhat). Soddies running scared (again, somewhat). European recognition of and resignation to all of the above, and the effect that has on support for the Palestinians (some?)

This is a lot of activity, and it's starting to coalesce. It's being done with diplomatic and financial power, and Israel can't do it. She can only fight (rather well, as we know).

I think the state is going to be provided for the Palis, whether they like it or not, and they will then have their hands full, and an address at which to be held responsible, just like the other unfriendly countries around Israel.

Israel is not going to slaughter the Palis, so this is about the only alternative. I hope as much as everyone else that it works, and I'm glad to help.

#131 Jimmy the Dimmy

There will not be another Arab state created by the road trap. What could happen, the Saudi goal when they drafted that plan, is the deployment of an international 'interposition' force. That would allow the Arabs to get a terroritory protected from Israeli retaliations from which to attack Israel, first through terrorism, then with a regular army when their forces are up to it, without having to make any political concession.

Arafat does not want another Arab state, and none will happen.

#125 James

I think its a sure bet that Russia, China, and India would have no qualms of putting down any type of Al-Quaeda bullshit in a way that would make Ariel Sharon wince.

Think about how Putin dealt with the theatre hostage takers. He'd risk killing his own people to make sure that the muslims didn't live. I've read about how Russians, when dealing with kidnappers, have mailed body parts of relatives of the kidnappers instead of ransom money. Russia ain't about to abide by any muslim crap.

Same for the Chinese. And India won't play any games either.

That's why, if we were able to look at this in a vacuum without having any investment, this whole geopolitical affair is fascinating.

Bush wants to keep Pakistan stable and will send some aid and weapons there, but not enough to seriously threaten India. I believe he's on Israel's side deep down, but doesn't want Saudi to be Iran circa 1979, so he won't let Israel bitch slapping the paleos become a causus belli for that country to erupt.

It is a delicate balance. And a job I sure wouldn't want.

But I know for sure, that if Dubya took the gloves off, unleashed Israel, went into Syria, encouraged the nascent Iranian revolution, and bucked up to whatever comes from the inevitable Saudi revolution, he'd save a lot of American lives in the future.

Transfer

#129 Caton

So much for my math and hat tip skills :-)

Condi seems to be here for a little arm twisting and game playing. She fell for the well-prepared propaganda presentation Abu Mazen & gang gave against Israel's security fence, and promptly announced that it was politically motivated and should be stopped. "Nonsense", said Sharon, Netanyahu (on CNN to Wolf Blitzer) and Tommy Lapid, "the fence will go up as planned". (Whew! That was close!!!)

She also seems to be meddling in Israel's internal politics. Anyone see or hear Silvan Shalom lately?? She had a little powwow with Shalom and asked him to leave his post. She wants Sharon to throw out the far-right parties and ask Labor to form a unity government. She wants Ole Wishy-Washy, aka Shimon Peres, to be Foreign Minister. Been there, done that. Is Condi out to screw Israel?? If she can be swayed by the Holocaust denier Abbas and his gang of thugs, can we trust her at all? Sometimes I wonder.

Caton

You may be right. But I just don't think so. The power of American influence is sweeping aside obstacles as we speak, including Israeli ones. Go read this and get really mad (but wait 48 hours, you know)
http://www.debka.com...

I remain cautiously hopeful. I can see a compromise between our outlooks, where the roadmap gets to the interim state stage, and holds until the arabs come around, which they will, with pressures and inducements. And arawipe will be gone someday...

#136 Jimmy the Dimmy

I am right. No doubt about this. I've said it again and again, the day 'peacekeepers' are deployed it's open hunting season for any Jew who wants Israel to survive. Attempting to put Peres in gov't again, just like Clinton sabotaged Nethanyahu to put Labor, is additional proof.

Again, the Arabs do not want an additional Arab state. There will not be one. How many times in the past Arafat could 'proclaim' a state? He never did, because that is not what the Arabs want.

This state is going to get proclaimed for him.

I agree that the peacekeepers would be disastrous. That's the main hitch I see.

#138 Jimmy the Dimmy

This state is going to get proclaimed for him.

It cannot be proclaimed without recognition of Israel as a Jewish state.

And that will not happen.

I think the Peres move is not as influential as it would seem. There are steps to occur and Peres will take them as needed.

As I said before, this is a big plan. It's much more comprehensive in accompanying actions performed than Oslo was.

#140 Jimmy the Dimmy

And what is the goal of the 'big plan'? The destruction of Israel?

I think this girl is the one, which means that my kids will be half-Jewish ethnically (leaving the religion question aside for the moment as I am Catholic), so this is brought home in a way I never thought it would.

Children of a Jewish mother are considered completely Jewish by all denominations, unless they actively take on another faith themselves as adults.

#115 - Alex

Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan. Please let it all be part of a Dubya/Rice master plan.

It is.

Children of a Jewish mother are considered completely Jewish by all denominations

Not to nitpick but that is not true at all and is on its face a ridiculous statement.

Eh, for some reason the rest of my response got chopped and I'm too tired to argue it, especially since I don't want to argue about it :)

By birth, much like an ethnicity or nationality, the statement is correct on its face, but you're statement fails to consider parental choice, which is the ultimate determinant of the religion of their children, at least initially. I'm sure Muslim men who take Jewish women as brides (and I know there are a few, having met one myself) dont think that way, and while I am loathe to compare myself so, the simple fact is that parental choice is the determining factor :)

#145 Alex F,

Yehudit is 100% correct. You may not like Jewish law, nor agree with it, but it isn't anything you can change. Even if you don't abide by it, you can't change it.

Alex F (#144)

Not to nitpick but that is not true at all and is on its face a ridiculous statement.

It is absolutely true, and I don't mean to be rude, but I think Yehudit knows a little more about it than you do. Children born of a Jewish mother are Jewish.

I'm sure Muslim men who take Jewish women as brides (and I know there are a few, having met one myself) dont think that way

Peres?!?

They're kidding, right?

*sigh*

Rice responded by saying that even though Israel claims the fence is not a political border, the fence creates facts on the ground and is seen in the eyes of the Palestinians as a political boundary and may create problems in the future.

Oh, um, aren't those the same Palestinians in whose eyes terrorists are glorious martyrs for Allah?

Maybe, just maybe, this is taking the concept of "diplomacy" and "peace process" a tad too far?

BAH. I don't even know what to say. I'm floored.

PS - I disagree with Charles's headline. Rice hasn't been influenced by Mazen. That "facts on the ground" is pure undiluted Chomsky. No really.

#118 - Outsider

Thank you for that dose of reality. Although I should know enough to not be surprised by anything anymore, being jaded does not come naturally to me. I guess I need more practice.

So, when it comes out that the Saudis are funding Bush's 2004 campaign I shouldn't be too shocked, right?

(Just practicing here...)

littleoldlady

#144 Alex F

"Not to nitpick but that is not true at all and is on its face a ridiculous statement."

Not to nitpick myself, but I have to point out that a lot of people don't understand that the Jews are a national as well as religious community. This is why even a Jewish atheist remains Jewish in everyone's eyes, including usually their own. Can their be a Christian atheist? Of course not. The difference is that being part of a nation is not conditional on what you believe or how you worship. Those are part of the religious aspect.

To draw a parallel, think of American law. If a person is born in the United State s/ he is an American citizen. Period. That is the law of the United States. Similarly it is the law of the Jewish people that a person whose mother is Jewish is also part of the Jewish people (call it "citizenship" if you like).

That's my point -- its Jewish Law, not Catholic, and Catholicism certainly hasn't agreed to accept kids born of a Jewish mother as true. If you think they have, I have several priests that have taught me over the years I'd like you to speak to.

Finally, I'd like to make two points: one, the continued insistence of a universal application of Jewish law is, on its face totalitarian, and the denial of choice itself slightly reminscient of Sharia; and two, to argue that so-and-so knows better, so you're wrong is condescending and insulting, and something I thought only liberals did.

Yes, I am offended by that statement, especially as I have granted the "by birth" premise, and made the argument the Church generally makes nowadays. I could just as easily throw out that I know more about the flipside of the issue; for example, I'm sure you already knew that the early Church passes laws saying that the children of a couple take the religion of the Father, specifically as a counter-balance to Jewish Law.

James, thank you for stating this, after all I made this clarification in my initial post on the subject as then I separated nationality/ethnicity and religion. The latter is chosen, the former is not.

The wall should have been put up years ago. Hundreds of Jews murdered the past few years would still be with us today if it ahd been.

I cannot believe that Ranbutan and I are in agreement on the security wall. MAybe the Cubs will win the World Series this year after all.

#154 Alex F

"James, thank you for stating this, after all I made this clarification in my initial post on the subject as then I separated nationality/ethnicity and religion. The latter is chosen, the former is not. "

That's my point.

To use an extreme example, there is currently an American citizen detained in Guantanamo Bay named Yasser Hamdi. He was born in America and was moved to Saudi Arabia as a baby. I doubt very much he in any way identifies with America. Yet, he is an American citizen regardless.

Just as this law is not totalitarian, neither is Jewish law. Certainly there is no coercion to follow any religion. But Jews recognize a person with a Jewish mother as a Jew. If such a person should choose to embrace Judaism or be a part of a Jewish community, conversion will be unecessary just as naturalization for a person born in America and raised overseas is unecessary.

Joel - The Cubs better not. This could be the Red Sox's Year (the eternal quest)...if they keep hitting and can fix their relief staff.

In case any one is curious which border they would prefer to promote, here is a map of palestine according to them.

#122 Alex

You're right ...you're right...you're right!
Everything you've expressed is exactly the way I feel.
There are a lot of people who feel the same way, but stay frustratingly silent. Why? Because no one will listen to them when they shout out their warnings. Just like the prophet Jeremiah warned and warned and warned..to no avail...until it was too late.
I am so desparately afraid that is what is happening right in front of our eyes. What should be right is wrong and what is wrong is being supported and driven as right. The values and morals of civilization have been turned inside out and inverted in truth.

I win my bet...the terrorists have struck twice today..the truce...what truce?

[deleted]

#161 Crystal Knocked,

Then go elsewhere. Piss off.

Nazi #161: Die, already.

#22 - The Paki-Brit murderers who bombed Mike's Place in Tel Aviv did enter Israel proper from Gaza, but they didn't physically breach the security fence. A fence would no doubt keep more crazies at home in Samaria and increase the number of "work accidents," but the it won't stop ISM and lefty newsies from smuggling the "heroes" through security checkpoints.

To all: It is only about 10% of the Moslem world that has contracted the really. Virulant form of the mental virus called Islam. If we are to give that 10% the treatment they so richly deserve then we will need to pacify the other 90%. The other Islam afflicted countries of the world (India & Israel) can't address this threat but the U.S. can. This will require us to ask those countries to forgo certain small actions in there own defence so that we can carry out the big actions that will make a permanent difference. Sometimes we will make these requests in ernest & sometimes just to amuse the Arabs.

An example of how the Jewish law works, Alex, is the following: If a Catholic were to have a male son with a Jewish woman, and that son were to be 30 years old and a practicing Catholic his whole life, he would still count for a minyan.

Jewishness is a legal state 'by the Jews, for the Jews'. If said 30 year old decided to never form a minyan, there would be no one to stop him. Your totalitarianism comment is poorly taken.

#166
Perhaps the statement was poorly made, but it was an attempt to reference our individual freedom to choose the religion of our children or of ourselves for that matter; choice being the determinant of whatever one is or isn't, the exception being race/ethnicity. The totalitarianism comment was to reference the imposition of one's rules/laws/traditions on those who choose to follow a completely different path.

If I've offended anyone, I apologize wholeheartedly.