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Carol Off

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Program Archive
Wednesday, March 31, 2004.
The assassination of Sheikh Ahmed Yassin - the aging leader of Hamas - and the expected violent response, is once again fomenting a sense of despair and defeat surrounding a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What is the significance of the assassination being ordered directly by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon? How will Hamas respond? Are Israelis and Palestinians locked in a pattern of escalating retaliation? And what is the best route forward towards a resolution to the conflict? counterSpin debates the implications of this most recent targeted assassination.

Watch this episode Online! Part One, Two, Three, Four, in rm format.


Wednesday, March 31, 2004.
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Im the first one
by ed_twardoz on Friday March 26, @01:13PM (#5108)
User #1838 Info
I have always wanted to have the first post....anyway I think that it is great that he is dead. And here again we see the bias of CBC. The bearded goat is not a spiritual leader. He is the mastermind of a TERRORIST ofrganization. How about calling a spade a spade for once counterspin. Maybe if you were less biassed there would still be a show for all of us to debate over in the future.

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Shitty Topic
by Crammed on Friday March 26, @03:55PM (#5110)
User #349 Info
This really isn't an appropriate topic for a show. It will put an extremely minute minority into the uncomfortable position of crawling out from under their rock to defend Yassin and Hamas. I sure hope CSIS is watching this one.

But, I'm sure that the show will do its best to be balanced. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. Why should any show about the killing of a monster be "balanced"? If Osama bin Laden were killed, would that be a two-sided issue as well?

I sure hope that Adrian isn't hosting this one. I like the guy. But, this topic is more than he can handle and I don't want to see him ripped apart on live national television like Carol Off was afew months ago (although I rather enjoyed watching Dershowitz tear her a new one).
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This post is for Nicky
by ed_twardoz on Friday March 26, @04:57PM (#5113)
User #1838 Info
Hey Nicky. I hope you are going to rush to my defense. Some "username" named Texas called me an idiot. So you see left wing socialists are also people who just put people down with a different point of view. Anyway Nicky, I look forward to your posts on this topic.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Palestinian people are already dead.
by Dubya on Friday March 26, @06:31PM (#5120)
User #1827 Info
Seeing a 14/16 year old young boy with 18 lbs. of explosives strapped to his body only magnifies the fact, regardless of which side you are on, that the Palestininan approach to the Jewish problem is unequivocally dysfunctional. They bask in death, glorify suicide bombers, venerate the teenaged is all so deplorable...sad. Imagine if they were taught to cherish life they could probably sit down with their brothers and SISTERS of a different religion and live side by side. Instead, a generation of exploiting their youth through brainwashing and teaching hate has only crushed any real hope in this region. Yassin's death is irrelevent, his seeds sprouted a generation ago and destroyed an entire culture. God only knows what will become of the Middle East.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Justice Served!
by Crammed on Friday March 26, @07:57PM (#5122)
User #349 Info
From []

Among the more infamous Hamas suicide bombings and terrorist attacks were (the following is a representative, not exhaustive, list):

  • The 1 June 2001 [] suicide bombing of a Tel Aviv discotheque, in which 21 people were murdered and 120 were wounded;
  • The 9 August 2001 [] suicide bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, in which 15 people were murdered and 130 were wounded;
  • The 1 December 2001 [] double suicide bombing on the Ben Yehuda Street pedestrian mall in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 188 were wounded;
  • The 2 December 2001 [] suicide bombing of a #16 bus in Haifa, in which 15 people were murdered and 40 were wounded;
  • The 9 March 2002 [] suicide bombing of a Jerusalem cafe, in which 11 people were murdered and 54 were wounded;
  • The 27 March 2002 [] suicide bombing of a Netanya hotel on the first night of Passover, in which 30 people were murdered and 140 were wounded;
  • The 18 June 2002 [] suicide bombing of a #32A bus in Jerusalem, in which 19 people were murdered and 74 were wounded;
  • The 4 August 2002 [] suicide bombing of #361 bus at Meron junction, in which nine people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
  • The 21 November 2002 [] suicide bombing of a #20 bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and 50 were wounded;
  • The 5 March 2003 [] suicide bombing of a #37 bus in Haifa, in which 17 people were murdered and 53 were wounded;
  • The 17 May 2003 [] suicide bombing in Hebron, in which two people were murdered;
  • The 18 May 2003 [] suicide bombing of a #6 bus in Jerusalem, in which seven people were murdered and 20 wounded;
  • The 11 June 2003 [] suicide bombing of #14A bus in Jerusalem, in which 11 people were murdered and over 100 were wounded;
  • The 19 August 2003 [] suicide bombing of a #2 bus in Jerusalem, in which 23 people were murdered and over 130 were wounded;
  • The 9 September 2003 [] suicide bombing of a hitchhiking post near the IDF base at T

Read the rest of this comment...

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
What were they expecting?
by Godz on Saturday March 27, @12:33AM (#5126)
User #1624 Info
Let me see, Yassin preached to fathers about the "beauty" (sic) and "honour" (sic) of sending their young kids to s suicide mission which kills other kids. He has always ALWAYS lectured people for the destruction of Israel, H glorrified suicide bombers by telling teenage boys how they're now in heaven enjoying 72 virgins (I can't believe this!). He raised money for anti-Israel militants, he goes on Al-Jazeera and tells the Arab world that its thier duty to kill every Israeli Jew. Once he was released from prision in 96 (correct me if I'm wrong on this) he immediatly "warns" Israeli arabs of collaborating with Israel as he openly confesses that he will send "armies of fedayeen" to Jersalem, Tel-Aviv and other cities I can't renmeber.

All of this!! What the hell did the Palestinians think Israel was gonna do? Seriously? Did they expect flowers and choclate?

What really gets to me about the sheer stupidity of the Palestinian people, is that from the footages I've seen, Yassin preached about the "duty" for Parents to strap their kids with dynamite and libertae Palestine. And after his speech is over, he is rolled off the stage by his healthy looking, well-built 20 something son. Now, did they EVER one of them get up and say "Hey why's your son not going"? I mean does it even cross their mind?

The world is sure a hell of a lot better without the likes of him.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
CBC should focus on our own issues
by libertad on Saturday March 27, @12:23PM (#5143)
User #1575 Info
What really irritates me is how CBC keeps distracting us from �Canadian issues� An assassin responsible for the murder of children going to school, men & woman going to work and teenagers having fun in a nightclub was eliminated. What is there to debate about???

Did you know that Canada, who sells itself to the world as the peacemaker, is one of the top arms sellers in the world? Between 1990 and 2003, the Canadian government permitted the military exports to numerous undemocratic and repressive regimes. For instance, Canada has sold arms to:

Brunei, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Oman: Countries which have never had any elections;

Bahrain: Its only legislature has been dissolved by decree since 1975;

Kuwait: Women still do not have the right to vote or stand for election;

Algeria, Egypt, Jordan, Kenya, Mauritania, Morocco, Lebanon, Pakistan, Singapore, St. Vincent, Togo and Turkey: Women held less than 5% of the seats in parliament in 1999;

Bahrain, China, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE: Unions, strikes and collective bargaining are strictly outlawed; and * India, Kuwait, Lebanon, Mozambique, Oman,
Pakistan, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Tanzania and UAE: Central governments spent more on their militaries than on health and education combined.

Canada is selling military hardware to foreign police and military institutions that are well known to be regularly and systematically abusing human rights. The regimes that our government continues to prop up are guilty of the most extreme forms of civil rights violations: secret arrests, unfair trials, cruel treatment of prisoners, torture, disappearances and extrajudicial executions. Economic and social rights to education, health, housing and employment are ignored or undermined by many recipients of Canadian military exports. Canada is selling tools of war and repression to many regimes spending vast amounts on security structures to quell demonstrations and strikes by those striving for a better life.

For several years, the UN has declared Canada to be the best place in the world to live. Does this privileged rank depend upon exploiting our position in an unjust global economic order? When purchasing inexpensive products from farms, mines and factories around the world, we might ask ourselves: Why are these products so cheap? Do the workers receive fair wages? Is their living and working conditions safe and healthy?

Dismantling the myth of "Canada the Peacemaker" is more productive to debate than the death of a killer.

CBC should be focusing in debating on things closer to home and not distracting us constantly with the Middle East conflict where there is nothing that the Canadian public can do anything about.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Why Israel choose to kill Ahmed?
by Nicky on Sunday March 28, @12:18PM (#5164)
User #1919 Info
I think in order to understand the significance of the assassination and its aftermath we have to look at the events prior to the assassination, in the Israel-Palestinaian conflict. Maybe the first question that could come to mind is �Why should this Ahmed Yassin be assassinated at this particular time? Was Israel incapable of �terminating� him at any earlier/later occasions? NO. Israel could kill him years ago or sometime in the future WHEN THE PEACE actually would finally be in place. So, again, why did they kill him right now? What were the political benefits of killing him? Was he a military target? NO. His assassination was driven by political reasons. It doesn�t mean that Ahmed himself was anything less than a monsters figure.

And let me be clear that once the terrorists target each other, I personally don�t care who terminated who as long they don�t hurt any civil people. Ultimately we must wipe out terrorism, period.

Isreali government is led by the extreme right wing; this government is not up to ANY, what-so-ever peace process unless it is forced to. Who can force the current state of Israel to sit at a peace process table? 2 different political forces: 1) Its allies, US in particular and 2) the pro-peace population of the world, the Middle East, Israeli population included.

What happened b4 the assassination?

During the weeks prior to the assassination, Israel was under pressure by the international community for its terrorist acts, for its wall-building, and it finally accepted to withdraw completely from Gaza strips. The peace negotiation was supposed to start. Was Sharon happy it? NO. Did he go along w/ it? Yes. Why? Because Israel was also under pressure by US and other allies.

Israel had to come up w/ a perfect plan to halt the peace process for an unforeseeable future. They picked Ahmed to assassinate. Why?
� Since he was a figure that no fair person in the whole globe could defend him.

� The act was provocative enough to halt the peace process. The day after the assassination, Egypt cancelled its diplomatic negotiation for the peace process. Militarism within Israel intensified enormously; propaganda machine start rolling as never before. To be able to manage all of this Israel must have a perfect excuse: the threat of �Hamas�, e.g. the other terrorist.
Who benefits the assassination of Ahmed Yassin?

Political Isalm, Hamas in particular and the extremist in Israel led by Sharon government. I have already mentioned the benefits of this act for the state terrorism of Israel. It may come as a surprise how assassination of Ahmed was indeed a favor to Hamas. But again, terrorism feeds and promotes terrorism. This act was the best contributor to Hamas. The message sent by Israel through Ahmed�s assassination was that Israel is not up to any peace. Also, it indicated that its major �enemy� is Hamas. Desperate people in the Palestine turned to support Hamas, not because they are particularly "fond" of its suicide attacks nor its barbaric method of acting but because Isreal acknowledged Hamas as the main figure to confront. It gave Hamas a big �credit�. Result? Hamas grew as never before within days of assassination.

The ongoing occupation of Palestine, the ongoing militarism and war against the civil population of Palestine and Israel- in which the number of people killed by Israel is actually higher than the terrorist acts committed by Hamas - are examples of horrible life created by terrorism on both Palestinians and Israelis. And let me be very clear on this: the number of people killed does not justify any side of these horrific acts. Both sides of terrorism are monstrous, barbaric and anti-human.

Who can stop this? What can we do in Canada?

The mass demonstrations in March 20, 2004 are another indication that civilization is against terrorism and militarism in any form and by anyone. This movement which also is very strong within Palestine and Israel, is the only hope to end the violation and to put a pressure

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Terrorists Funnel $35 Million through Canada
by Crammed on Sunday March 28, @02:27PM (#5168)
User #349 Info
I sure hope that this gets discussed on the program. This is part of what makes terrorism a Canadian issue ( []):
Ottawa links $35 million in cash transfers to terrorists
By Jim Bronskill
Canadian Press

Sunday, March 28, 2004

Canada's anti-money laundering centre uncovered $35 million in suspected terrorist financing in the first nine months of the fiscal year, outstripping the tally for the entire previous year.

The amount reflects the total detected by the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre from April through December 2003, forming the basis of 29 case files passed to police or intelligence officials for further investigation.

The figures obtained by The Canadian Press are the latest indication that dangerous organizations continue to try to use Canada's financial institutions as conduits for bankrolling terrorist acts...

...The agency says terrorist financing may involve money raised from legitimate sources, such as personal donations and profits from businesses and charitable organizations, as well as from criminal activities, such as the drug trade, the smuggling of weapons and other goods, fraud, kidnapping and extortion...

...Lamey attributes the increase in cases disclosed to authorities, at least in part, to the growing volume of reports the centre processes -- expected to be well above two million this year...
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Mon 29/03/04, A sad day for right wing
by Nicky on Monday March 29, @07:36AM (#5190)
User #1919 Info
What a day! Just for a change, there's no highlights on terrorist attacks of Israel/US or that of Hamas/al-qaeda, the news are:

In France everybody talks about socialists and its ally COMMUNISTS! Bush practically is graving its presidential crown. His latest masterpiece was a stupid joke on WMD.

Sharon is on the edge to be out of the office. Our force, the left's, the socialist's, the communist's, the worker-communist's, the humanist's; in a nut shell the force of the civilized population of the world, particularly in Israel has been converted by the establishment of Israel into diplomatic words of Sharon�s bribery scandal. Sharon is under such a pressure that he talks about a plan to withdraw, partially, from Gaza strip, in order to get away form the public pressure.

Wow, It�s really sad � for the right wing.

I didn't expect our inflence be that effective that fast. But hey, this is just the beginning and comparing to real changes, in favor of humanism, these events are nothing to be remembered.

How about left? Are we supposed to be happy? I don�t know about you guys but I have a mixed feelings: happy because left is on the go.

But look: left, right, center and all combinations of these words are just relatives. Doesn�t really mean much unless you put them in specific context. What we are witnessing is actually the victory of mainstream left. Nothing more. Never mind that they owe their victory to us. Anyway, if we consider that left in its general term means pro-humanism then we can say we have had some progress.

My true happy day though starts when somewhere in the world wage-labor is extinct and public ownership is the rule of society, w/ no exception. Until then we have to watch the mainstream left too, i.e. the socialist and the communist and the green parties of France, and the socialist party of Spain. They have been in the office before and followed the same footprints as the right wing. After all they are just mainstream left, nothing more.

For now, let's be satisfied by saying:

Monday March 29/2004 is a sad day for the right wing.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Sorry CounterSpin
by Crammed on Wednesday March 31, @07:37AM (#5230)
User #349 Info
I feel sorry for counterSpin. Apparently the "expected violent response" hasn't panned out for them. Oh, well. There are still a few hours before the show in which some innocent Israeli civilians could be blown up by Hamas terrorists. Good luck everybody. Sorry that you're not getting renewed. I have lost many nights of sleep and shed many tears thinking about how much I'll miss you.

*choking on my own sarcasm*
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Tonights Show
by moosy on Wednesday March 31, @12:10PM (#5245)
User #1945 Info
As usual, I will be surprised if Counterspin has anyone but Palestinians on the show tonight. Seems like Counterspin doesn't want any Jews or anyone else on the show fearing an actual debate could arise. G-d forbid someone actually says something against suicide bombings. It is sad to see a show that prides itself on debating only portray one side of an important issue. I guess you can't expect much from a program determined to represent the views of the NDP.
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Mr. Khouri's remarks
by moosy on Wednesday March 31, @04:26PM (#5276)
User #1945 Info
It is nice to finally hear a Palestinian like Mr. Khouri openly admit there is corruption within the Palestinian leadership. For too long I have heard it is everyone's fault BUT the Palestinians. I applaud Mr. Khouri for being candid and pointing out the responsibilities the Palestinian leadership and people must take on to better their situation.
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thank you counterspin! excellent show
by clara on Wednesday March 31, @04:51PM (#5279)
User #1948 Info
I am thoroughly enjoying tonight's Counterspin. The guests are articulate and intelligent. Your guests are contributing to a very interesting discussion. I am sure you will be critized for being "one-sided" by people who do not believe the Palestinian people should have any voice in the media. I urge you not to succumb to such attacks. The Palestinian story must be told.

As your guests have indicated, the Palestinian struggle is one that is diverse, Hammas being one aspect of the struggle. Why should Palestinians resort to suicide bombings to free themsevles from the occupation. It is sad that for some people this is their only hope for liberation against a brutal and inhumane occupation.

One of your guests just said a very important remark - make the war 'equal' and arm the Palestinians with F16s to defend themselves against the 6th military power in the world. Then, Palestinians would not have to commit suicide bombings.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
by Gothfather on Wednesday March 31, @05:14PM (#5283)
User #1946 Info
I find it very disturbing that there has been huge support for this organization. Regardless of the occupation's situation there is no excuse for the support to this organization. Humas is a self professed terrorist organization. When you have a panal that refuses to recognised that humas is an extreme organisation. When palastinian organisations use children to blow up other children and civilians, you can only come to the rational conclusion that they are nothing more than a terrorist organization.

The logic used to defend these actions is that if their was not occupation than there would be no suicide bombers. Well i challenge anyone to defend the tactics of the suicide bombers. If these bombers attacked military targets then there would be a moral and just aspect to their struggle BUT you can not condone or excuse their BELIBERATE targetting of civilians. They cry foul when they say the IDF has attacked and killed civilians but refuse to condem a deliberate act of terror.

You want to equate palastine with a moral cause then you had better show me how palastine can justify its tactics? Many people have struggled against occupation and spawned gureillia groups but most of these groups target military targets or political targets. Not civilian shoppers are a grocery store.

The Palastinians refuse to actually tackle the issue of terrorist attacks and instead say no the real issue is occupation but thats just a falsehood. There is no justification for terrorist attacks. They dont want disscussed the issue of suiside bombers is because they cant moraly justify these attacks. They always ignore the issue. There is a moral difference between targeting civilians at a shopping center and your goal is simply to kill those people then a military action targeting terrorists and civilains get killed.

I'm not here to defend occupation i feel taht Israel should dismantle the west bank/gaza settlements and them create a wall along the greenline with some MINOR, MINOR changes and then create a two state solution.

So long as you use terrorist activities and strapping bombs to teenagers and telling them to blow up civilans you lose ALL MORAL JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR CAUSE. Palastine has not moral justification against the occupation they do the following;
they have sticker books praising suicide bombers
they view the suicide bombers as heros
they refuse to accept responability for their action but blame the Israelis for their suicide bombers.
They tell lies about terror. they blame jews for the 9/11 attacks saying no jew was killed in the twin towers
they danced for joy when those attacks happened on 9/11.
they strap bombs on teenagers and attack non-military targets
they support terror and refuse to arrest those people who are the ring leaders. Where were the palastinians? why wasnt the leader of humas arrested for these self professed attacks?

When it comes to terror palastine has NOT shown the world that it believes these acts are evil. They pay lip service to the idea that its evil but it appears that they find excuses for these action all the time. They get angry when the west calls them on this and claims its a case of discrimination. We are blaming an entire people for a "few radicals' actions" Until i start seeing Palastinians actually making a consered effort to unconditionaly condeming these attacks and accept responcibility and to try to stop these attacks then the cause for an end to the occupation hold no moral high ground.

I have no right to go and murder the daughter of a murderer or the wife of a burgaler. The idea that the occupation justifies these attacks sickens me. I find that Israel showed incredible restraing when they DIDNT gun down that 14/16 year old boy strapped down with explosives. That teenager came into Israel to kill innocent people.

You want moral high ground again and still want to resist the occupation militarily? Then target the military target soldiers. When Iraqis' use suiside bombers to kill American soldiers thats not

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by Darren S on Wednesday March 31, @05:30PM (#5287)
User #1950 Info
I am sick to my stomach that the CBC would allow many of the myths and propaganda that were delivered on counterspin tonight to go unchecked. I can only hope that viewers of this show are intelligent enough to check the facts before basing their decisions.

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
A deeper psychology of the middle east
by Horus on Thursday April 01, @12:01AM (#5306)
User #1953 Info
The assasination of a spiritual leader is not a proper way to go about peace, especially if the Israeli regime is directly attacking peoples belief systems. Have we in western society forgotten about the greatest/worste war in history. The Nazi party of germany used anti-semitism and exploited peoples values and beliefs to create propaganda. Have we forgotten that violence, and assimilation is what the nazi's used to try and create their perfect arian race, to assimilate until there was a pure nation of blonde haired, blue eyed people. The Israelis and the Palestinians are doing the same thing. Except in my perspective Israel is the nazi party of this situation, with their American pacts and political agreements. They fuel these events of suicide bombings and other "terrorist" activities by using their military strength, how can palestinians react, only by throwing stones and using bombs. It seems that this is what the French Marquis had to resort to during the occupation in France in world war 2. If the middle east cannot unite and create one nation where anyone can practice their religion freely, to adapt to the way modern culture works (note that i did not mention democracy and capitalism). than the violence will never stop. Both sides in this dispute need to stand down and open their ears and their hearts. For this struggle for power should be unwanted, absolute power brings absolute corruption. To love one another is the only thing in this world, not to fear, there is nothing to fear but fear itself. Fear is created by those with power. Control is a form of power, religion is a form of control, so where do we stand now without this control of religion and the fear it instils in our minds, and the minds of those in the middle east. We stand nowhere but beside our fellow woman, man, and child. These men and women and children, especially the children need a world without war, without violence and hate, without corruption and a struggle for power. In the Aeons upon Aeons we have forgotten our true connection to God, to Buddah, and Allah, to all the gods that sumbolize the unknown, and that is each other. Feel free to criticise I feel there is a much deeper meaning to all the things going on in the middle east just besides the political view that palestine wants a state of its own and israel wants to keep its own. The psychology of the individual and the whole needs to be looked at in order to stop these needless conflicts of illusion that are too many years old, the suffering must stop for all.
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Whoah! Way Cool
by Crammed on Thursday April 01, @09:46PM (#5345)
User #349 Info

Hey, I just discovered that it's possible to use Hebrew on these message boards.

:-) עכשיו אני יכול להגיד לכל-אחד האמת בעברית

[ Reply to This | Parent ]
Watch/Listen to Finkelstein online saturday
by jojo on Friday April 02, @08:07PM (#5374)
User #1677 Info
Sorry for the short notice.

Those interested can swing by CSPAN2. It is supposed to be this saturday, april 3, at 10am.

There's an announcement of that on Finkelstein's web site:

Enjoy (or get pissed if you are an immoral zionist :-))
[ Reply to This | Parent ]
by CADIMA on Saturday April 03, @04:24PM (#5395)
User #1941 Info
Asper Foundation Lecture Series: From PLO Terrorist to Ardent Zionist

Asper Foundation Lecture Series in association with the Winnipeg Zionist Initiative Present: Former PLO Terrorist Walid Shoebat
  EVENT TYPE: Lecture
DATE: Thursday, April 15, 2004
HOURS: 7:30 p.m.
LOCATION: Canad Inns Hotel, Polo Park
ADMISSION: Tickets are $10, students free (with student ID)
TICKET INFO: To reserve your tickets, please call 477-7510
Born in Bethlehem in 1960, Mr. Shoebat was indoctrinated against Israel at the age of 8 and began participating in and fomenting anti-Israel riots and terror-related activities. At 15, he was imprisoned in Jerusalem's central prison where he was recruited by the PLO. He attempted to blow up the Bethlehem Bank Leumi, was involved in the near lynching of an Israeli soldier (who miraculously escaped) and in the U.S. raised funds for the PLO. After studying the Tannach (Jewish Bible) in a challenge in order to convert his Catholic wife to Islam, he became convinced that he was "on the side of evil" and became an active Christian Zionist. He now lectures extensively as a staunch supporter of Israel.
Shoebat says "My first goal is to give strength to the Jewish people, to give encouragement. I want to fight for Israel from a theological and political perspective. The true occupation is of the minds of Palestinians, of teaching them hatred for Jews. That is the real occupation."

Enjoy if you appreciate the truth or eat your liver if you are a terrorist supporter.
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