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Million Dollar Challenge Have any thoughts about the JREF Million Dollar Challenge? |
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13th February 2005, 03:59 PM | #1 | ||
Thinker
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 153
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If this data is posted elsewhere, forgive me and point me in the right direction. This is not about Kramer's log of recent apps, which is great as far as it goes.
How about a historical summary of The Challenge? I would be curious to know:
To cap it off and inject a little levity, how about summarizing the reason for failure according to the applicant? Okay, okay, I know it's a lot of work. But it could be really useful for reference when the Challenge gets attacked. And I'll even volunteer to do some of the work, if that is possible. How about it? |
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What does Lake Michigan look like today? |
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13th February 2005, 04:18 PM | #2 | |||||||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
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Often quoted here by a certain Randi-basher was the Australian Dowsing test: http://www.skeptics.com.au/journal/divining.htm Overall the tests showed dowsing failing at chance, but the water test in that case was about 22%, which is about double chance, but still well within the bell curve for chance. It is still a failure, since it is about 64% lower than the lowest rate the dowsers claimed to be able to do. Some have harped on the water test as some kind of success, but it simply is not so. Especially in view of the overall failures in dowsing tests.
This comes up a lot, but the fact is that the JREF just does not have enough time and resources to get all the stuff on line. KRAMER is working with challenge applicants pretty much full time and when there is a respite he works on back entries and such. You are correct, it is a lot of work. Keep in mind that the JREF is Randi, Linda, KRAMER, and maybe an intern. They all have things that take up their time. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th February 2005, 04:34 PM | #3 | |
Muse
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 760
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I recently exchanged PMs with Kramer about this topic. I here attach the reply he sent me.
(My questions appear in bold. Kramer's responces in italicised bold.)
In susbsequent PMs Kramer clarified that the 352 properly executed challenge applications went back to 1997, prior to which the challenge was only $10,000. He was not able to tell me how many preliminary tests were done prior to his joining the JREF last March, just that only one test has taken place since then. Although, the recent Yellow Bamboo test would probably be the second. I hope I have not stepped out of line by posting this. If I have, let me know Kramer, and I will dutifully extend my hand for the requisite slappage. |
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Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan |
13th February 2005, 04:54 PM | #4 | |
Thinker
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This may answer part of my question:
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What does Lake Michigan look like today? |
13th February 2005, 05:16 PM | #5 | |
Thinker
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 153
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A capsule wrapup of each test might be just what the doctor ordered, like this:
Hey, scan or xerox the files and send me the scans or dupes -- I'll do the tally! | |
13th February 2005, 05:44 PM | #6 | |
Muse
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Kramer displayed a marked reluctance to go digging into the older files in order to coallate this kind of data. The impression I got is that they are, perhaps, not in a state of general orderliness. |
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Aurora Walking Vacation "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding."--Marshall McLuhan |
11th March 2005, 12:13 PM | #7 | ||
challenge facilitator
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Florida
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Sorry but I cannot answer many of these questions, such as "Who performed best at testing". I've only been here a year, and answering a question such as this would take weeks of research deep into the files.
However, my understanding is that most applicants fail rather gloriously, performing far below CHANCE. According to everything I have been told, no one has performed well, or demonstrated anything that even came close to warranting further inquiry. Presently, there are 305 CLOSED files, and 50 OPEN, and about 20 of those are presently "pending" with ongoing protocol negotiations. Of those 50, about 30 will be closed by the end of March, because files remain open for 12 months before being closed due to inactivity. We never close a file on an applicant with whom we are actively corresponding. About 15 applicants are presently negotiating the specifics of the terms of their test with skeptics groups and independent investigators around the globe. Many of these negotiations go on for months before the applicant finally disappears. VERY few tests take place, as very few applicants ever agree to an acceptable test protocol. There have been two tests since my arrival here one year ago. My understanding is that there has never been more than a couple of tests per year. No one has ever passed preliminary testing, and hence, no final/formal test has ever taken place. That's common knowledge by now, I would hope. I regret that I am unable to give you more finite data at this point in time. |
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KRAMER, JREF Paranormal Challenge Desk |
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11th March 2005, 12:20 PM | #8 | |||
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,037
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That's interesting... |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "What separates critical thinkers from non-critical thinkers is not what we believe, but how we treat our beliefs." - Athon "The path to true skepticism is realising there's not true path to skepticism. It's a method, not a goal." - Hawk_One |
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11th March 2005, 12:39 PM | #9 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Playing the Devil's Advocate here, but...what if my claim was that I would always perform far below chance? That I had negative PSI? That's gotta be paranormal, right? |
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SkepticReport.com |
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11th March 2005, 01:53 PM | #10 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,037
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You read my mind, CF. Quick, apply!
Even though I'm taking Kramer's statement as simply an opinion (instead of a real statistic), if it were true it could mean any number of highy interesting things. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "What separates critical thinkers from non-critical thinkers is not what we believe, but how we treat our beliefs." - Athon "The path to true skepticism is realising there's not true path to skepticism. It's a method, not a goal." - Hawk_One |
11th March 2005, 04:35 PM | #11 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South of Bluff Creek
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Perform below Chance!
I am in the money. 1. I will always be in the slowest moving lane of traffic. 2. If I change lanes it will become, in mere seconds, the slowest lane of traffic. 3. I Always live in an area whose local NFL team finishes last or second to last for the season. Even when I move, the new team instantly starts to loose. 4. I recently lost 63 straight coin tosses. Out of 63. Fair coin. I called 31, my daughter called 32. I was trying to teach her about probability. She thinks I am retarded. |
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"I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN?" - fowlsound 9/19/2005 I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
11th March 2005, 04:58 PM | #12 | |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,037
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If your daughter is between the ages of 10 and 19, the last part has nothing to do with the coin toss. |
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "What separates critical thinkers from non-critical thinkers is not what we believe, but how we treat our beliefs." - Athon "The path to true skepticism is realising there's not true path to skepticism. It's a method, not a goal." - Hawk_One |
11th March 2005, 05:04 PM | #13 | |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Nah, she just turned 9. But a very mature 9. I am not looking forward to the next several years. Does anybody know of a convent that will take a 9 year old for the next 12 or so years? |
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"I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN?" - fowlsound 9/19/2005 I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
11th March 2005, 05:22 PM | #14 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,037
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Nope, sorry. But if it helps, it only hurts until you lose your sanity entirely.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "What separates critical thinkers from non-critical thinkers is not what we believe, but how we treat our beliefs." - Athon "The path to true skepticism is realising there's not true path to skepticism. It's a method, not a goal." - Hawk_One |
11th March 2005, 05:31 PM | #15 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South of Bluff Creek
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I am learning to drink. Think that'll help?
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"I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN?" - fowlsound 9/19/2005 I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
11th March 2005, 05:35 PM | #16 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,037
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Only if you do it alone.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke "What separates critical thinkers from non-critical thinkers is not what we believe, but how we treat our beliefs." - Athon "The path to true skepticism is realising there's not true path to skepticism. It's a method, not a goal." - Hawk_One |
11th March 2005, 05:39 PM | #17 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: South of Bluff Creek
Posts: 1,806
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You are right. Its more efficient that way.
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"I DON'T SEE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET, IF THERE WERE A CHICKEN IN MY BASKET I WOULD SEE IT THEREFORE THERE IS NO CHICKEN IN MY BASKET! DO YOU ADMIT THERE IS NO CHICKEN?" - fowlsound 9/19/2005 I have met Tim at TAM. He is of sufficient height to piss on your leg. - Doubt 10/7/2005 Aristotle taught that the brain exists merely to cool the blood and is not involved in the process of thinking. This is true only of certain persons. - Will Cuppy |
12th March 2005, 04:53 AM | #18 | |||
Master Poster
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True, but what about a co-op, or even a just-plain volunteer? I'm not due for retirement for another 10 years or so, but I'd love an excuse to get down there and root around in the files. |
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Beady's Corollary to Occam's Razor: "The likeliest explanation of anything is almost always the most boring one imaginable." |
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13th March 2005, 01:50 PM | #19 | |||
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 8,487
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Instead of "understandings" and things you've "been told", hopefully some day we'll see actual prelim statistics (without having to fly down and sort through files) made freely available for interested parties to examine. | |||
13th March 2005, 02:41 PM | #20 | |||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
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Then you'll have to find something else to complain about. Several challenge results have been posted in various media over the years. You have deliberately ignored that. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th March 2005, 03:10 PM | #21 | ||||
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 8,487
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Only seeing recollections and etc. and not actual data is a valid complaint, I would say. If you prefer recollections and a piece of data here, a piece of data there, that may work for you.
Actual data is appreciated. "various media" doesn't really cut it, nor make it easily accessible to interested parties, wouldn't you say? | ||||
13th March 2005, 03:14 PM | #22 | |||
Philosopher
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For example, kookbreaker, when KRAMER says "However, my understanding is that most applicants fail rather gloriously, performing far below CHANCE." What does "performing far below CHANCE" mean specifically? How far below? What are the probabilites and the sample sizes? Is the event of most applicants falling far below chance itself going against what chance would expect? We have no idea from such statements. I'm curious, however, and I suspect many people, skeptics and "woo's" alike. | |||
13th March 2005, 03:24 PM | #23 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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Posts: 26,713
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Instead of making snide remarks on an Internet board, hopefully some day you'll get your head out of your ass and fly down to JREF to actually do some work of your own. You are not the boss of JREF. Or anybody else. |
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SkepticReport.com |
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13th March 2005, 04:31 PM | #24 | |||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
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Then I suggest you start reading the material you can get ahold of. There are several accounts of tests in Randi's weekly, a few more online, a few more described on USENET, and several in Flim-Flam. The base material is in FLA. If you want a more thorough answer. Get working. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th March 2005, 04:57 PM | #25 | ||||
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 8,487
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My comments are valid. What does "performing far below CHANCE" mean specifically? How far below? What are the probabilites and the sample sizes? Is the event of most applicants falling far below chance itself going against what chance would expect? Can you answer me, Claus?
That is why I am asking, Claus. See the pretty question marks above? | ||||
13th March 2005, 05:00 PM | #26 | |||
Philosopher
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More general appeals to 'go look' for the data. The challenge has been in some form since the 60's, but no records or summaries of the prelims that are easily available (not taking time off from the job, paying for planes, a hotel room, and spending many, many full days there searching archives, etc.) to interested parties? That seems pretty important to me. | |||
13th March 2005, 05:01 PM | #27 | |||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
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You'd better get to work if you want specific answers to your question. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th March 2005, 05:12 PM | #28 | |||
Philosopher
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Posts: 8,487
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The point is that if a JREF employee can't provide those details, how could I be expected to? | |||
13th March 2005, 05:24 PM | #29 | |||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
Join Date: Aug 2001
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By going and doing the work that yields the results that you, exlcusively, are interested in. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th March 2005, 05:31 PM | #30 | |||
Philosopher
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 8,487
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Tons of Skeptics and non-skeptics are interested in those results, kookbreaker, not just me exclusively, as you claim. This thread, for example, was started because someone was interested in them. Right? JREF's bread and butter is the challenge, yet no one seems to know much of the statistics on them, and a JREF employee believes it would take too much time to do. That confuses me somewhat, as it seems a very important and desirable thing that would have been thought of. Oh well. Like I said, "hopefully someday". | |||
13th March 2005, 05:40 PM | #31 | |||||
Ninja Wave: Evil Ninja Fokker
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No. The closest you get is: "What would you say is the "best" test, and by that, I mean the one with the highest result tally, where the applicant came closest to his goal? And was this still within the bell curve of chance?"
As does Randi.
Its funny how you expect everyone to do your work for you, and how you set the priorities for the JREF. It might be of interest, but it really isn't that important. If you want to see it, you'll have to do it yourself. Whining like a spoiled child is not going to do much. |
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We really need to get rid of Oprah and bring back the "ABC After School Special." . Those things were a moral compass for my entire generation.... Before Oprah, kids learned to work out their problems. Under Oprah's regime, kids just sit around waiting for Angels to help them. -Rodney Anonymous. "Then will he link his profile and show his posting history, And say 'These posts I made on kookbreaker's day.'" Band of Skeptics by Luke T. |
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13th March 2005, 07:51 PM | #32 | |||||
Philosopher
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The details and results of a test can be expressed through statistics, kookbreaker. Additionally, Sherman added "statistical analysis". You left that out, kookbreaker.
I haven't set any priorities. I do think it would be a good idea, however. If you believe differently, that is fine. People ask about the statistics of the challenge, so it seems important.
Making a sensible suggestion is not "whining", kookbreaker. Considering the tests are gauged by statistics, the suggestion is sensible, kookbreaker. | |||||
14th March 2005, 02:27 AM | #33 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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What he said. |
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SkepticReport.com |
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14th March 2005, 02:32 AM | #34 | |||
Philosopher
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If you want to ignore the actual data, be my un-skeptical guest. | |||
14th March 2005, 03:23 AM | #35 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
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I don't find it particularly interesting, so why should I bother? It's this "Justin Likes To Order The World Around" symptom we see again and again. You are a one trick pony. |
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14th March 2005, 03:26 AM | #36 | ||||
Philosopher
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You do know you just admitted to not finding the actual data interesting, right? Definitely saved for posterity.
Am I a pony or fly excrement? You keep changing your mind. In regards to the actual topic you desparetly wish to avoid by getting into personal attacks, Randi responded, and it sure is interesting. I'm emailing him now for permission to fwd the email or post it here. | ||||
14th March 2005, 04:11 AM | #37 | ||||
Penultimate Amazing
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No. I don't find it particularly interesting. There's a difference. Of course, you had to leave that out.
Please do. Just be sure to save it all. |
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14th March 2005, 04:30 AM | #38 | |||
Philosopher
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Oh, "particularly", as if that changes the content or meaning of what you said in any way. So you admitted to not finding the actual data particularly interesting. It seems to me, that that is probably *the* most interesting thing, because that is the only way to judge success or failure and other important things, and put them in an objective numerical form. Apparently one can get more data from the GCP than from the JREF challenge. | |||
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