I'd heard this story as far back as 1997 in the Coffee shops. At that time it was just rumours. The Rakyat were whispering already that the way the former PM was dipping his hand into the Funds (EPF, Tabung Haji, Petronas, etc) for his economic mega projects and later managing the economic crisis to save his cronies financial empire would render such Funds strugling to meet their financial obligations later. EPF would be forced to turn itself into Pension Fund. Well, the rumours are turning out to be true. No smoke no fire.

Agaknya Tabung EPF kering disebabkan "bail out" yang dilakukan PM terdahulu .Pak Lah yand akan jadi mangsa kemarahan EPF members nanti.Pity HIM.

There is a member of Pak Lah`s cabinet who at one time could only afford half a bottle of coconut oil. And walked around in a dirty dhoti.
He went on to head a political party then bankrupted some of its members who beleived in him and then invested in his Party`s Investment Fund. He said he was doing it for the good of the members.
By the way it seems that leader today wears Armani suits.
Now EPF has pulled a page out of his book.

too bad... people will continue to vote BN forever.

dont waste your breath lah..

Excerpts from:http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/12/14/nation/6914806&sec;=nation

"Penang Chief Minister Tan Sri Dr Koh Tsu Koon advised the EPF not to rush into any rigid formula without getting public feedback and suggestions first.

“Although the proposal is a good one, further consideration must be taken to ensure that it is more flexible,” he said, adding that some contributors might need their EPF savings to settle medical bills or other urgent dues.

MIC vice-president Datuk S. Veerasingham said the proposal had its pros and cons. He said that if lump-sum withdrawals were allowed, contributors would finish the money very fast. "

Let these 2 ministers be known, there are no pros and cons in this matter.And Mr. Koh, this proposal stinks and is a non starter,pls don't try to make any justifications. And Mr. s Veerasingham,for your info,we the ordinary rakyat has , many don't have the luxury of having foreign accounts or "BIG" savings, so please don;t tell us how to spend our money.
Political parties , their leaders and NGO's who has the rakyat's interests at heart should mobilise all their resources and to vigourously protest this proposal.
EPF funds are contributers savings,its completely different from government pensions. Government PENSIONS are paid to retiring government servants from taxpayers monies on a monthly basis and till death do they part.
SO for F@$# sake, don't compare our EPF savings as government pensions.IT IS OUR MONEY.
Maybe Pak Lah should appoint an Independent audit company to fully audit all past and present accounts of the EPF, so as to satisfy the rakyat on its sound or lack of financial standings.
The bottom line is,EPF's withdrwals is NOT negotiable at any costs.

"When in DOUBT, follow Singapore's WAY"

the Singapore CPF has had this "scheme" for some years anyway....what's NEW? at least you can use the monthly payments to offset the housing loan installments over there...

I "wrote off" my EPF years ago & consider it a "bonus" if i see it before i die.....then again if they were to follow Singapore, my beneficiaries would probably receive it in monthly "installments" as well...sigh....

i think we should just consider it as another form of income tax..that way, if they write you a "refund cheque" at the end of your "working life"....consider it a "bonus"....

Either that or start applying to "fund" your MBAs, PhDs, MCSEs etc from your Account II of the EPF...that way at least you get to "invest" in yourself & start receiving the "payoff" immediately with "higher wages"....

Jeff, your comments please?

IF they proceed with double track project,then we know where the fund come from!

Tunku Mahleel said Proton could handle the competition after AFTA. Now he wants 20year trade protection.
EPF earlier said that its members money was safe and they would have no probs paying contributions. Obviously there is a mismatch now.
Tabung Haji has its own probs. Perwaja is a failure. Etc. Etc.
When will the Petronas Monkey be hauled up. HE abused the TRUST of the voters.

Elcarim10 and Justme, both of you hit the nail on the head, although in different ways.
So the chicken has come home to roost, haven't they? It was a matter of time that the truth will out.
THERE IS NO WAY OF STOPPING THE TRUTH _ NOT EVEN BY SHACKLING THE MEDIA!!!

rajew...

Don't be a defeatist and take a contrarian view of always saying "I've told you". That's the easiest.

Propose we do something... unless you don't have n EPF account.

It is a well-known fact that the EPF's investment board is made up of a group of incompetent “crème de le crème” who defies the logic of benefit-cost analysis. They have been making investment decisions based on Mahathir’s misconception and lies, so much so many failed investment projects have been camouflaged or swept under the carpet. Quite recently, there were rumors that the EPF Board is going to siphon out our money to Moktar (Mahathir’s beloved crony) to finance the economically ill-conceived, ecologically disastrous and socially unsustainable Bakun project. There is absolutely no transparency in the way they are handling OUR MONEY. If they have sustained any loss over any ill-managed project, so be it, after all it’s not our money. It’s really the time to go very tough with EPF or else they will never and ever learn any lesson. Who knows one the EPF Board will declare 0.001% interest on our saving? Really sick of all these brainless “professionals”. Malaysia really boleh!!!

It time to reveal the truth that the fund in EPF is mitsmatch due to bail out of cronies project.
Who is going to accountable and responsible for the failure???

EPF is going down the drain with this one. That is for sure. No thank you EPF. You hv just become the blood sucker of the year if this one is to go thru.

REFER TO THE CONTRIBUTORS EPF: CASSA
-------------------------------------------------
The Consumers Association of Subang and Shah Alam Selangor (CASSA) today called upon the Employees Provident Fund Board to revert to the contributors first before implementing their controversial proposal to prevent a lump sum payment of the contributor’s monies at the age of 55!

The board should be extremely vigilant and aware that EPF contributors are already an angry lot who have seen their dividends drop drastically over the last 22 years!

They are also aware of the controversial usage of EPF funds for alleged bailouts and for schemes that went against the ‘objectives and spirit” of the pension fund.

The present EPF board had failed miserably to protect the rights and interests of contributors and will fail again, if they proceed with this proposal without a referendum from the contributors!

With the general elections ‘round the corner’ - it would be extremely foolish and imprudent to test the tolerance levels of the contributors.

If the EPF Board decides to go against the rights and interests of the contributors, CASSA would initiate a multi prong legal action, to test this decision in the country’s court of law and commence a nationwide signature campaign against this move!

It is time that transparency, accountability and good governance be the order of the day instead of what transpired in the past where state and pension funds, were been used at the fancies and obsessions of a select few, in political power!

I am certain Prime Minister Datuk Seri Abdullah Ahmad Badawi would not allow this to happen under his administration which had indeed started off on a right note of addressing corruption of many "forms and shapes!".

Dr. Jacob George

President/Legal adviser

CASSA

012-3664444

stage a nation-wide demonstration when the need arises!!!

My question is:
If Pak Lah has not voiced his opinion that the double rail project be shelved would this controversial proposal arised?
ARE there any ulterior motives behind this proposal?
If so, who are those culprits?
Is what we read in the mainstream media a red herring?
Could this be a political conspiracy by some unseen sinister hand or hands trying to undermine Pak Lah?

The government will commit political suicide if it allows EPF to carry that plan out. Simple as that. We should be moving in the direction of greater transparency with regards to the management of EPF and its investments. Instead they come up with this nonsense.

Is the country heading towards bankruptcy, this
EPF proposal may be the tip of the iceberg. Has
anyone recently noticed the well publicised
advertisements over the radio of how contributing
to Perkeso would help widowed/single mothers. Another ploy to rake in more money into their coffers. Does anybody know what happens to all the
Perkeso contributions. Be wary and be ready to prtest vehemently any ulterior proposals by the EPF. Let us not end up like Argentina, then we will have to bang pots and pans on the streets of
Malaysia. BE WARNED.

So the Chicken has come home to roost. Pak Lah is in a "World Of Shit", created by the over idolized "mamak" Mahathir. So the Balls carriers and polishers, in MIC,Gerakan and the MCA are talking about the pro and cons. Lets's all together end their rule during the next general elections. After which we prosecute the "mamak" his cronies and his sons and make sure they stay a long time in jail, in mamak's case until death. This is for misusing the EPF as their own piggy bank. This has to end, those of you want to vote for DAP,Pas and KeAdilan, by all means vote them in. At least they are not morally corrupted like the "DISEASE" called Barisan National.I know if I have to wait over a 15 year period, I will never see all my money as I will be dead with the lifestle I lead and love. The end of it all I want to kick the bucket loaded with a handsome will, where people who don't like me, attend the reading of the will. Cos, I have all of my EPF money. What the BN blood suckers are doing is, they are actually robbing us BLIND of our hard earned money. That is daylight robbery. How on earth am I going to take my long suffereng wife who never had a vacation in life for overseas holidays ? Oh, I am actually mad.That is my money and I DEMAND that I get it when I attain the age of 55, and also the one third when I attain 50. Do those clowns think that we can't manage our money. The clowns who were the Mamak's cronies could not manage well with their millions, no they had to use our money. They have no right to speak about the management of our money. If I burn the whole lump sum of my money, use it as toilet paper, give it away, it is my bloody business , not some screwed up corrupted politician. There are 3 most honourable professions in the world, teaching, soldiering and nursing, not necessarily in that order. The 3 most NOT honourable professions in the world are prostitution, thievery and politics, THEY REMAIN IN THAT ORDER !

Wonder this Azlan guy reads screenshots?!! Hey Jeff why don't you forward all the comments rec'd at the end of the day to him?

Malaysia heading towards K-Econs society, yet perceive it's society as not wise enough to plan for their own savings at the ages of 55 ? Cheers to EPF for their un-popular proposal ..

What a great job GOING-TO-BE done again ?

While we are on this subject let us not forget
aboutour monies with the following Malaysian instituitions:-

1. Insurance Companies (Life
Policies etc.)

2. Commersial Banks & other deposit
taking entities.

3. Unit Trust Companies.

Think carefully abot your own future and act accordingly. These bastard policitions would label you as unpatiotic, but they will be the first ones to have an overseas PR and offshore bank accounts. We have been warned.

When the EPF was set up it was to help us save until we retire. What we do after that is our personal choice. What kind of stock they invest after having almost 50 years of experience since independence and they still give us about 2.5% above what the banks give us for savings. That is why I prefer to take my money out every 3 months to invest in unit trusts! At least my money is out of their control where they simply invest in some lousy companies. Accountability comes first!

Election is around the corner. So shout out loud on the probs. Hopefully the politicians will be more sensitive...in a sense

nobody knows how much foreign debt this country has for the last 22 years. well go and enjoy your peudo recovery and when the time comes you will find all of you r belongings sold to japan who is our chief creditor. our previous boss say japanese are good as they give lower rates and longer time for debt repayment. epf probably is busy paying debts

In a few days they`ll say it`s only a proposal. Then it`ll die down. Idea being to create issues and then show that they (BN) care for the Rakyat. That`s so the oppn. has no issues.

After elections this will be passed. So will Bakun and so will the double-track railway. Kiss the money goodbye.

Contributors: I want my @#$%ing money.
EPF: There's no @#$%ing money.

While we like to call the EPF all sorts of names, the Investment Board really comprises of salary earning puppets. Some very powerful guys are doing the maneuvering.

And we call our's a democratic country. Nothing is further from the truth.

This the beggining of the end. Malaysia cannot sustain a seven year deficit, simple as that. Anybody here know if one can request to take the money out for education?

From the show 'Mr Deeds'.

'You can't soar like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys'.

So, Pah Lah now that Christmas is near you can start taking orders. Ya, I like that one, the Vellue meal one. And how much would that be?

i dont think i can in any way tolerate EPF any more. first it was the MAS bail out, then the horrifying anuity scam and now, EPF want to keep your saving in its hand and giving out in stages.

i am a bit regret now, if that turn out to be the real deal, i think it is only wise for the government to consider the option of letting the people to decide whether they want to keep thier EPF account.

for God sake, itu duit saya, bukan bapak CEO EPF punya! i would rather invest it somewhere else or save it in the bank than letting the potato heads telling me when i can get my money.

is there any way to force the government to consider the option i just propose?

Yes, you can organize a group and protest in
front of the KWSP.

Seriously, it seems that Mahashit is trying to
undermine Badawi. He must be pissed off over
the gamuda and proton humiliated leaked letter.
ANd also to force him to accept Najib as dpm
so this national service fiasco is linked.

This old man is pulling strings even after
retiring. Mahashit will not hesitate to bring
down the whole country to keep people he wants
in power to ensure they never proceed with
corruption investigations against him and his
cronies.

He must be regretting letting Badawi in control
now that Pak Lah has shown he's not exactly what
Mahashit hoped him to be.

there's no cash flow mismatch when most of the savings has been used to bail out the companies. future earnings are just some "expected earnings" -- they failed once and who could guarantee they wont fail again ?

the news for not allowing pensioners to withdraw their money is plain silly too. It creates a sense of fear amongest the society, only leads to a potential run on EPF, which would fail any institutions.

Perhaps the easy way is simply boot the current board out of their comfort seat and order and audit so current damage can be repaired.

sah, EPF menghadapi aliran tunai utk meneruskan sisa-sisa kehidupan

yalah yalah....go create chaos lah... stage a demonstration, Reformasi style or Gandhi style?

Any how, you are likely to taste the water canon and tear gas.

I want to see YOU lead first!

dear screwepf, i really appreciate your response to my message, but what i dont expect was the term you used to undermine Dr M. honest to God, I believe that Dr M had made some serious mistakes during his tenure as the number one, but it was rather disgrace to call him 'Mahas**t' since he was also responsible for some great national achievements.

lets aim our gun at the right target, OK?

EPF money is for old age - and to me 55 is old enough man! I will manage my own money then.... Even if I were to burn it all away, it is MY money. I would rather burn it on my own then to let other idiots do it for me.....

Let this be a promise to you BN, you lose my vote this coming GE if you bulldoze this one thru! And I vote in Subang Jaya man!

Is this the latest stake being driven by the EPF to the heart of all its members? I have struggled and contributed to the EPF for 36 years and just when I was about to reach the golden age of 55 whence I can withdraw my RIGHTFUL savings,,,WHAM comes this!

I had planned to withdraw ALL my savings in one lump sum to satisfy the two most important loans of my life. First to settle ALL the mortage on my house and the full settlement of my children's tertiary education loan (neither of which had ANY help from the government). Now what am I supposed to do? Borrow from Ah Longs (possible but suicidal) or rob a bank - impossible as I am too old and timid for this type of thing.

Please let me know of any plans to PROTEST against this GREATEST TRAVESTY of government trust.

It is an evil intention in disguise. The more people will believe that EPF is actually out of cash!! The hole dug by the previous administration is too deep to fill now... maybe they will increase the precentage to be deducted next...

Usual trick. They cook out some issues plan. Then, pretend to listen to rakyat. Later, bull-doze through the plan after the general election. Malaysians have short memory. Five years later, they will forget everything. We all never learn.

In politics, everything is possible. This could be an evil scheme concorted by the Old Man to frustrate Pak Lah, BEWARE!!! He is fuming mad because of the postponement of the railway contract, he is still pulling strings in Kedah, Petronas, here & there...just to show who is still in CONTROL!!! He must be put away to ensure our nation's well being.

hey guys,

this is the EPF feedback page: http://www.kwsp.gov.my/english/epf_feedback.html

please flood them with all your complaints everyday till this is resolved.

thanks.

ks lai, I echo your sentiments. Like you, I intend to withdraw all my EPF savings to help finance my children's tertiary education. Now the EPF thinks they have the right to withhold our savings. The records show that they are lousy in managing our money. What makes them think they could help us curb our spending when they themselves don't practise prudent management.

I say NO! to the proposal. Is that loud and clear?

I want my money NOW!! EPF cannot be trusted anymore....

Just heard this over the 9.00pm news.

One female EPF officer interviewed over the phone said that this new scheme is only being suggested and that contributors should not worry.

She must be kidding. Should contributors only start to worry when it becomes law? Wouldn't it be too late then?

Though not a "conspiracy" believer for many reasons - one of which is that the differing interests of the elite must converge - I have always had this gnawing feeling that Pak Lah may not get the time he needs to perform the tasks he has set himself for our beloved country.

If there is a conspiracy to show up Pak Lah, I state in clear terms that the perpetrators must cease and desist before the rakyat jelata resist nad persist.

Pak Lah and his people must tell us the truth on this one, coming so close to his decision to postpone the rail deal so that the rakyat jelata can show their support for him. Shame the devil and tell the rakyat the truth if there is any attempt to manipulate your ability to make decisions in the interest of the country.

However, if it is a Barisan Nasional sandiwara, that will be different. I do not believe Pak Lah will create an issue to show the rakyat jelata that he is with them. We know that Pak Lah can be trusted and so he need not indulge in such games to worry the rakyat jelata.

Whatever it is, the EPF is a repository of the working rakyat's money. The money belongs rightly to the people who have accounts in the EPF. The EPF cannot change the rules to the detriment of its depositors.

As a few posts have said, even if the depositor burns his money, he/she has every right to do that because it is his/her money. No one has a right to deny him/her of his/her money. Such a denial - even in temporal terms - is nothing but outright robbery.

But of course, our judges are not independent while our media is surprising "free" to publish, although I had thought that Press Freedom in Malaysia was denied a long time back. What does that tell us? Is it just to "entertain" us, the rakyat jelata? Who is "entertaining" us? For what? Think, Malaysians, think.

Time is no longer on our side.

The reason given by EPF (as I understand it) is
1. Malaysia has no national pension scheme
2. Our EPF contributions are supposed to help tide us over when or income stops after 55
3. Pensioners often exhaust their EPF nest egg within 3 years of retirement. i.e 58
4. Life expectancy is now 70 for men & 75 for women.
5. Therefore, the average private sector old person is basically penniless, for 12 years (M) & 17 (years) after their retirement, replying on their children, relatives & straining government resources on things like healthcare & social security.

Given the above "facts" it seems that retirees are not managing their money well & i think the EPF proposal should be seen in this light. Its an attempt to solve the imbalance. As to whether its the best solution to the problem remains to be seen.

Though not a "conspiracy" believer for many reasons - one of which is that the differing interests of the elite must converge - I have always had this gnawing feeling that Pak Lah may not get the time he needs to perform the tasks he has set himself for our beloved country.
If there is a conspiracy to show up Pak Lah, I state in clear terms that the perpetrators must cease and desist before the rakyat jelata resist and persist.
Pak Lah and his people must tell us the truth on this one, coming so close to his decision to postpone the rail deal so that the rakyat jelata can show their support for him. Shame the devil and tell the rakyat the truth if there is any attempt to manipulate your ability to make decisions in the interest of the country.
However, if it is a Barisan Nasional sandiwara, that will be different. I do not believe Pak Lah will create an issue to show the rakyat jelata that he is with them. We know that Pak Lah can be trusted and so he need not indulge in such games to worry the rakyat jelata.
Whatever it is, the EPF is a repository of the working rakyat's money. The money belongs rightly to the people who have accounts in the EPF. The EPF cannot change the rules to the detriment of its depositors.

As a few posts have said, even if the depositor burns his money, he/she has every right to do that because it is his/her money. No one has a right to deny him/her of his/her money. Such a denial - even in temporal terms - is nothing but outright robbery.

But of course, our judges are not independent while our media is surprising "free" to publish, although I had thought that Press Freedom in Malaysia was denied a long time back. What does that tell us? Is it just to "entertain" us, the rakyat jelata? Who is "entertaining" us? For what? Think, Malaysians, think.

Time is no longer on our side.

Goh
You are great. Chew and spew. To you, the reasons they tell us must be true. Never was there a believer like you.

oh dearc
Now all my plans to start my own business after 55 is gone. My life long plan. My only savings. I will die without realising my dream of being my own boss. Well I know who to blame for giving me false hope.
CAn we sue them for breach of promise? We put in our money on the promise that we will get it back in lump sum after 55. Now they have back up on this promise. So can sue or not?? Lawyers pls reply.

All EFP members should send a BIG VOTE against the daylight robbery at the next general election! Such economic diactatorship cannot be tolerated. Let's exercise our voting right to send the message across!

That goes for all who are unhappy with the ad hoc way the National Service is operated. Let our votes register our unhappiness. Send the message home loud and clear through the ballot box.

Shortchanged Miaka shareholders should also cast their votes to protest against the semi-cronies.

All EFP members should send a BIG VOTE against the daylight robbery at the next general election! Such economic diactatorship cannot be tolerated. Let's exercise our voting right to send the message across!

That goes for all who are unhappy with the ad hoc way the National Service is operated. Let our votes register our unhappiness. Send the message home loud and clear through the ballot box.

Shortchanged Miaka shareholders should also cast their votes to protest against the semi-cronies.

In response to Goh, I would say this. Either you've already taken out ALL your funds from EPF which means it doesn't affect you, or you are too young to value the RM$$$$$ we need to get back from EPF to finance our OWN plans.

To say that "...retirees are not managing their money well.." is a media fed lame excuse. Has the government EVER aided ANYONE who has 'squandered' away his/her EPF funds? Why should the government care now? Will you lend me RMXXX,XXX at whatever interest rate EPF MAY elect to DECLARE next time?

I choose to buy Levis while you choose to buy Lanvin. See the logic? IT'S YOUR MONEY,AND YOU DO WHAT YOU JOLLY WELL LIKE WITH IT!!

Well, if you want to play safe, then withdraw whatever amount you can now. Buy house, go for higher education and invest in unit trust! If you invest in unit trust, the EPF can't touch your money after 55!

Rather than come out with such a one-tracked suggestion unbecoming of the biggest custodian of national savings, the EPF Board should answer these counter-suggestions:

1. come clean on what you've been doing with the major portions of the funds all these years, and i mean, names, companies, dates, investing criteria and approving proxies;

2. give details on what have been spent by those who have reached 58, three years after they've withdrawn their funds; since it is the crux reason for the suggestion, show us you have facts to back the suggestion.

3. in the case of (2) above, if education for one's children was a major use, then answer this question - if you were us, would you as a parent do differently, considering the avenue to government-subsidized education is closed to many?

4. did it ever occur to you that you'll get this avalanche of disagreement with the suggestion? if no, why not?

5. did it ever occur to you that on account of (4) above, you're sending wrong signals to local capital market, actuarial calculations and foreign investors? if no, why not?

Wake up, it seems the world is more complex than you can possibly know.

To all the hard-working and painstaking Malaysians with minutiae savings in a devaluating currency, "hail, moritori salutans".

I would like to urge people to be calm and cool-headed in addressing the issue.

There is no need to jump into an accusing mode of ineptitude, corruption and exhaustion of funds. I am immediately suspicious of the source and the way the news was framed. As far as the EPF is concerned, they are raising a proposal to secure continuous income in old age, and subjecting it to debate. I strongly suggest readers to get some information on the available and variations of pension systems around the world, and realize that what the EPF is proposing is not an outrageous swindle as some here implied. Even the CPF in Singapore needed some major overhaul. In fact, most pension systems around the world are facing a crisis due to rapid demographic transitions.

I try not to give a long winded essay here, but I think readers need to be calm and try to understand an issue before thinking of picketing or launch immediately into a rabid mode of protest.

Mukul Asher has written extensively on the subject in the region and is a good place to start. Understand how the Singapore CPF works at http://www.cpf.gov.sg/cpf_info/goto.asp?page=intro2cpf.asp.

The only trouble with our press is that they lack the researching angle and jumped the gun. As someone in the field of aging studies, I am severely displeased with the knee-jerk reaction and poor effort by the EPF body to come up with a more palatable and flexible approach. In any case, WE HAVEN'T even hear from the EPF body itself.

This is a great opportunity for Malaysians to understand the aging issues in the country and I welcome further discussions in this space Jeff Ooi provided.

But try to avoid the drama yeah? :P

I can already envision this to be hijacked for political purposes...

Look here people, try to take a step back and listen to yourselves. The EPF is trying to come up with a plan to ensure continuous income in old age. There are many ways we can do that, and that's what the original meeting was about. This is a healthy sign to show that our EPF body is not SLEEPING.

There have been far too many cases of fraud, lost money and short term spending in existing studies. And with all the arrogance of IT IS MY MONEY AND EPF CAN DO NOTHING WITH IT, please try to understand what EPF concept was originally set out to achieve.

If the govet doesn't step in and say we won't go with this ridiculous proposal, I will vote for the opposition in the next election. Be it PISSED or PAS.

We should be calm!

Let's vote BN out calmly!!!

Don't give them the power to mess our lives and our money and our children's lives anymore.

i agree with chez1978. why get so worked up over a PROPOSAL? of course this is a proposal that most people don't like, including me but no point for the high drama over a proposal. esp. those who suggested that quick! quick! we should right now go and withdraw whatever money we can from our EPF fund... isn't that an exaggeration.

IF the EPF has done its homework on the proposal, and IF it knows that such a proposal will be viewed as preposterous when announced, it should have given us the WHYs and the HOWs of the plan to help fellow Malaysians.
.
That the EPF has announced the proposal as a mere proposal and nothing more, knowing fully well that the proposal will attract the kind of kneejerk reaction, smacks of the irresponsibility that I cannot ever associate with a governmental body.
.
If the EPF has indeed worked on the proposal, it is still not too late to spell that out so that all Malaysians can decide whether we should continue with the EPF or not.
.
Maybe we should disband this fund which was designed initially to help Malaysians save. Right now, it looks as though the fund does not have the kind of money to meet withdrawals.
.
This talk of ageism hitting Malaysians and the EPF is so much balderdash and poppycock because we know for a fact that the bulk of the baby boomers have retired.
.
Come now, the view of the so-called students of ageism in this country is suspect.
.
We know that for years now, a lot of the EPF money has gone astray.
.
I have always said that from way back in 1988, when the EPF Act was amended to pay "dividends" instead of "interest" someone was going to do something with the money. Why?
.
Payment by way of interest is a RIGHT, while payment by way of DIVIDENDS is a privilege. You enjoy a RIGHT to an 8 per cent interest rate, but you enjoy only a mere PRIVILEGE of a 2 to 10 per cent dividend. For all I know then, it may even be a ZERO dividend payment!!!
.
God help Malaysians when we have monkeys looking after bananas. No, we need not go bananas at the sight. Just be CALM.

In strict legal terms, applying the law of estoppel, the EPF Board can be stopped in its tracks from implementing such a proposal to the detriment of its depositors.
But then, with the greatest of respect, the question is: How independent are our judges?
Can they give decision ACCORDING to the law or ACCORDING to their conscience?
Take a look at most recent sensitive cases. Where have they gone? I mean the decisions, not the minds of the Judges. Forget about the conscience part.

Wonder the RM1 we contributed still worth RM1, taking into account the shares being held and loans extended, and other assets by EPF at today's price.

I will start by responding to AFJ's comments.

"IF the EPF has done its homework on the proposal, and IF it knows that such a proposal will be viewed as preposterous when announced, it should have given us the WHYs and the HOWs of the plan to help fellow Malaysians."

Firstly, the EPF conducted discussions of the proposal with its representative board. There is no sense in announcing to the public a proposal that its OWN board has not approved. I am sorry but we're getting ahead of ourselves. We have nothing on the nature of the proposal, its specifics, yet some here are already condemning the idea of securing continuous financial income in old age.

It is not irresponsible to discuss a proposal to consider its feasibility.

"If the EPF has indeed worked on the proposal, it is still not too late to spell that out so that all Malaysians can decide whether we should continue with the EPF or not."

The EPF has to prove its case, true. However, there is no such thing as ALL Malaysians agreeing on ANY issue. That's poor choice of words. There is definitely a need for consensus, in particular views of the representative bodies, academicians, fieldworkers and policy developers, but to come and ask for the blessings of ALL Malaysians is far-fetched.

"Maybe we should disband this fund which was designed initially to help Malaysians save. Right now, it looks as though the fund does not have the kind of money to meet withdrawals."

I disagree. IT WASN'T DESIGNED TO HELP YOU SAVE. It was designed as part of a social security system. The government cannot take care of the elderly on its own. Who told you that the fund cannot meet withdrawals? Is there evidence for that? I am all for a status check of the EPF and whether they can meet withdrawals, how they have handled the money and demand for transparency, BUT I AM NOT SUPPORTING THE DISMANTLING THE MEAGER PILLAR OF SOCIAL SECURITY THAT THIS COUNTRY HAS. We cannot go the US-way, and none of us are willing to go the Denmark or Swedish way, so we have to find a path of our own.

"This talk of ageism hitting Malaysians and the EPF is so much balderdash and poppycock because we know for a fact that the bulk of the baby boomers have retired."

The bulk of baby boomers have retired? Student of ageism? What on earth are you talking about? THE FACT IS THAT OUR FERTILITY RATE IS DROPPING. THE FACT IS THAT WE HAVE MORE ABSOLUTE NUMBER OF ELDERLY TODAY THAN BEFORE. THE FACT IS THAT OUR RATE OF POPULATION AGEING HAS BEEN CLIMBING STEADILY AND IS A TREND THAT WILL CONTINUE. THE FACT IS THAT OUR POPULATION IS AGEING RAPIDLY. WHY IS SINGAPORE HAVING PROBLEMS WITH THEIR CPF? When your elderly population doubled from 7% to 15% in about 25-30 years, it has impacts.

"Come now, the view of the so-called students of ageism in this country is suspect."

I hope you know what you're talking about or please read up. Students of ageism? There is no such thing. I am in the field of human development and my area happens to focus on aging. If because some views do not fit with yours (therefore its suspect), then I advise you to keep suspecting whatever you like.

"We know that for years now, a lot of the EPF money has gone astray."

And instead of correcting that problem, you are suggesting that we do away with it? Sure, the matching percentage by your employers is not YOUR right without the 'august' body, you know?

The inability of Malaysians to clarify one issue from another, raking up old sentiments of discontent and then juxtapose the images is disconcerting.

We are getting ahead of ourselves, and more importantly, undermining whatever suggestions that the EPF is trying to make without even hearing the details.

Thousands of f#*k shouts will not ease my anger against this stupiest proposal I ever heard!

Nobody except myself should decide what I do with my EPF money.

If this thing goes thru', I know who I'm goin'to vote in the General election.

I am really pissed off by this!!!

You all need to be specific about what is it that angers you in the proposal.

Proposed Changes (via the STAR)
1) Only 20-30% of EPF can be withdrawn and will be paid over a 15-20 year period

Issit the percentage allowed and payback period or

2) Those reaching 50 are not allowed to take 1/3 out of their EPF savings

I personally prefer the Singaporean scheme of retention a minimum sum in the EPF account to be doled out periodically. This flat rate, of course, is problematic for people from lower bracket income. Then again, it is this group that we should focus on.

Look Malaysians, don't just say that a proposal is stupid. Point out WHAT is stupid and offensive specifically!

Riding on the waves of dissent and anger, this is the best time for Malaysians to demand a more transparent and accountable EPF. However, one should not dismiss the idea of social security reform.

I am not saying that the EPF is genuinely introducing reforms, I have no evidence of that. However, we should channel the uproar to a important and valid cause, seeking a thorough diagnosis of EPF handlings and estimation of sustainability. Make full use of their blunder to press for change, not dismissal!

Thanks to umno and mca, the EPF is broke and needs to resort to daylight robbery to prevent malaysians from having their hard earned money.

chez1978: You have a point calling for calm.

But I'm still pissed!!!!!!

Everything start with a PROPOSAL. Mega projects, Khidmat Negara, Double-tracking project, Intelligent Transport System. Proposal from somebody with their own interest and not my interest. Same like other proposals, this one proposal is not my proposal but using my money to implement it.

We have to shoot this down even at proposal stage and not when it has been passed to be a law.

Most of retirees i know used the EPF money to do these things;

1. settle housing loans
2. fund children education
3. fund children start-up business
4. capital for own business
5. settle other loans
6. put in ASB, fixed deposits
7. for living expenses
8. of course some for vacations

I am approaching 50 and have made plans to withdraw the 1/3 to settle my loans which I am paying thru my nose. With the loan settled of
course I can breath better and enjoy my old age and realised my dreams. Thru all these years I have regarded this EPF as savings which I can rely on after 55. The govt must give us back the alternative. Let us decide for ourselves or else we will decide who the next govt will be.

Good points chez,

All the knee jerks need to calm down, have a seat & a cuppa.

Whether the EPF is insolvent, or has ulterior motives problem that EPF has raised is that

1. in the future, the old will increasingly need to be self-reliant, but

2. EPF has suggested that retirees nest eggs are not supporting them adequately (over 1 decades worth of shortfall).

Therefore
3. EPF have suggested the CPF model of staggered payments.

The EPF's suggestion makes sense IF the EPF nest egg is viewed as a retirement fund & not as savings. No surprises, the EPF does view its role as a retirement fund. look up FAQ no 6 http://www.kwsp.gov.my/english/epf_frequently_asked_questions.html

Again, as I said earlier, whether this is the way to solve the problem or not is another matter. Personally, I think the EPF is no\either here nor there. The current contributions (& the returns) are inadequate to finance retirement. Even with staggered payments, the money wont last long enough.

Instead of tweaking the EPF scheme, more realistic solutions might fr instance, be
1. Older retirement age. The 55 yo retirement age has not kept up with the times, defined back when life expectancy was much lower. If people are retiring for a duration of over a decade, I can't see how any reasonable retirement contribution scheme can be adequate.
2. Expanded pension system: Expanded coverage of state pensions, so that all workers get a perpetual pension, as the civil servants do.

EPF says that many contributors spend all their money within three years after withdrawal. I wonder how they got the information. Do they follow up on all withdrawals and ask them how the money was spent? Or is it just a "survey" (just like RTM's scandalous surveys) done at random, with leading questions.
My advice to the EPF board is for them to look at themselves and answer to the contributors whether they (the EPF board) has been fair and honest, when they undertook investments in companies like MBSB, in which the EPF lost more than RRM700million. So far no one is accepting responsibilty for the stupid investment. EPF is controlled mainly by ex govt officers (the Chairman is always a retired senior govt officer) and govt officers are NOT contributors. So it is of no concern to them how EPF performs.

JUST TRYING TO BE HELPFUL, JEFF!

.....................

Comments: Star's chief-sub & ME
i used to joke with my friends that with the bunch of jokers (read Bast**ds) in EPF, using EPF funds on share speculating, etc etc, come my retirement day instead of giving me my money, they will give me share options on some dead, non profitable companies. To the EPF people., LEAVE MY MONEY ALONE.

Posted by artchan at December 15, 2003 09:52 AM
++++++++++++++

Which is the precise version ? Those managing editor, the chief-sub and bla bla bla are too independent on their own decisions or it just sounds that Pak Lah "Tak Dak Power?"

Posted by magep at December 15, 2003 09:55 AM
+++++++++++++++++++++++

A scheme of lies and deceit,thats my opinion. Call it "thinking stage" proposal stage or what not, EPF already has the intention to implement.
On what basis was the statistics based showing 70% of past contributors has gone bankcrupt and penniless after they have withdrawn their savings in one lump sum?
Conduct a referendum among all contributors before any changes, and don't some ministers or ball polishers come out in the media to make claims that the majority of the community they represent, like mic, mca, gerakan or others,are solidly behind this decsion.

Posted by justme at December 15, 2003 10:04 AM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

justme,

A referendum would be nice. It should show the BN administration whether they win the next election. We should now start thinking of our own privately managed "EPF". But this is fraught with risks, that in a political economy like Malaysia, a Muslim country, so said Mahathir, is so "predictable".

So what gives hope? Dollah or Bull-lah?

Posted by Jasman at December 15, 2003 10:32 AM
++++++++++++++++++

To art chan, justme, jasman in this blog...

The blog topic here is about Star's misplaced headline (?) and not about EPF.

Please repost in this this thread on EPF:
http://www.jeffooi.com/archives/001347.php

I will deleted you postings - which are not relevant to this blog topic - soon.

Posted by Jeff Ooi at December 15, 2003 10:45 AM

chez1978 would probably have seen these:

1. Overview of Formal Old Age Support: Malaysia
(World Bank report)

http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/HDNet/hddocs.nsf/0/4304337865f1a7788525690c0054f031/$FILE/malaysia.pdf

2. Social Protection in Malaysia

http://www.fesspore.org/pdf/Social%20Protection%20Files/01443005.pdf

for others/Asia, see:
- http://www.fesspore.org/sp_text.htm

- Towards An East Asian Social Protection Strategy (World Bank draft)

http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/HDNet/hddocs.nsf/0/7264fab1c396f9348525681c0070cdfd/$FILE/SPSSP-EAPSept17.pdf

3. UNSW Centre For Pensions and Superannuation

http://www.economics.unsw.edu.au/CPS/index.htm

see for instance no: 4 in:
http://www.economics.unsw.edu.au/CPS/2001.htm

4. ILO On Economic Analysis of Mandatory Defined Contribution Pension Systems

http://www.issa.int/pdf/jeru98/theme2/2-2b.pdf

5. Rethinking The Singapore Model

http://www.sprint.net.au/~rwb/singapore.htm

6. Heritage Foundation On Critics of Social Security Personal Retirement Accounts

http://www.heritage.org/Research/SocialSecurity/BG1344.cfm

7. Globalisation and Regional Welfare Regimes: The East Asian Case

http://www.issa.int/pdf/helsinki2000/topic1/2gough.pdf

inset: plus Europe
http://www.worldbank.org/eapsocial/library/gough13.pdf

backgrounder on Malaysia:

http://www.fesspore.org/pdf/Trade%20Union/Final%20Analysis%20Malaysia.pdf

neilh

hamba negara no.1...

Thank you so much for being so thoughtful ;-)

Dear Chez1978,
Obviously you have "forgotten" the Suzhou Industrial Park affair? Ask any Singaporean (especially the heartlanders: taxi drivers especially) and they will regale you with tales of what the CPF is all about....and why they changed the system for withdrawals over there. It is also the "primary" reason why West Malaysians are not allowed to withdraw their contributions in one lump sum when they leave the country(Singapore) for good unless they sign some affidavit that requires them to "repay/restitute" the full amount to CPF if they were to "reseek" employment in said republic.(approximately 200k+ Malaysians with PR status with an average CPF savings of SGD31,250 = SGD7.8 billion) for year ending 1999/2000.

*figures are taken from official sources below:

http://www.cpf.gov.sg/cpf_info/Cor_info/ReviewOp99.asp

http://www.singstat.gov.sg/keystats/c2000/handbook.pdf

Of course the figures above are estimates only & are taken from official reports as of 1999/2000.

I hope this is not what we have to look forward to "based on the Singapore model" in the future:

http://www.sfdonline.org/Link%20Pages/Link%20Folders/Political%20Freedom/scmp250800.html

Even in the US, FED Chairman Alan Greenspan strongly believes that the people should have dominion over how they reinvest their "savings" e.g. 401k, tax rebates etc when asked by the Senate/Congress how the the "then" budget surpluses during the Clinton years should be reallocated?

Of course, the US now "enjoys" the TWIN DEFICITS in place of its TWIN TOWERS...how ironic?!

If the authorities are suggesting prudence in the management of one's own personal finances....then they will have to let the public learn from their own "mistakes" from a very early age.

Do we teach our young to "safely" cross the road? Or are we to "tie them to our apron strings" for the rest of our lives and "guide" them at every "crossing" in their lives?

Teach and not Preach...

what say you Chez?

EPF have nothig better to do ah? for a start get rid of those who cheated us by giving us our lowest dividends.

Wow! 77 responses. Is this a record, Jeff? Maybe this will be one of the top stories of the year ...

Come on, after living for 55 years and one still can't manage their own money? What a lame excuses.

With inflation rates of 5% per year, till the age 80, the contributor actual EPF money will devalue 50%(offseting some interest earns from EPF).

However,chez has point out some important facts :
i. lower income poeple just can't sustain with the EPF money
ii. Some people really really know how to manage money even after age of 55.

IMHO, it is a bad idea for EPF to retain the money, one reason is because EPF are lacking professionality to manage such huge funds. The more money EPF retain, the worst they performed. Previously, theedge has mentioned that EPF hold ~7% of the whole KLSE listed company stock, but involve little in management of ANY company.

With such a HUGE funds, EPF are suppose to provide some low-risk low cost financing to the people, but it is not. Instead of involving in servicing finance, those jokers go straight to high risk trade financing. If not due to EPF regulation, our EPF funds will bloated the KLSE market and the country property with the excessive funds.

There is ways to help the lower income to retain their living with the EPF money, though it involve cost and resources, the cost will not even as as much as 0.05% of the current dividends paid.

However, long, steady way and time consuming solution are not welcome by politickus. It is a mindset that set for 22 years.

vkii, 77 responses is not a record at all. there had been more than that... like the blog on islamisation and PAS islamic state. then i think if i'm not mistaken the most no. of responses (over 100) was the blog on the passing away of our dear fellow blogger, the late johan ismail of joe-blogs.

Dear Malaysian,

Firstly, there has to be an understanding about the concept of mandatory contribution systems and other forms of social security. A major global issue is social security in old age and this pressing issue has prompted the Second World Assembly on Aging 2002 to devote a session on social security. The International Social Security Association through its International Social Security Review volume 55,1/200 published a special issue dedicated to discussions on the matter.

In particular developing nations, the provision for care and support for the elderly has always come from two sources, both formal and informal structures of social security. You can refer to Knodel and Debavalya (1992) for elaboration on the characteristics of Asian families when it comes to such matters. Fact is, a lot of the elderly on this side of the globe spend their retirement money on their children. I am not judging the soundness or questioning the right of individuals in exercising their personal choice for expenditure, but you have to understand the purpose of social security.

With the expansion of years one can expect to live into old age and the shrinking dependency ratio, the public institution must be prepared for a raid of the system (medical, social, welfare etc). At present, co-residence with adult children is still a dominant pattern, but the effects of industrialisation, modernisation and economic individualization are strongly felt by the present generation. I am going to quote the World Bank's profile, which I perused some time back:

"The provident and pension funds (PPF) component of the contractual savings sector is the primary instrument for providing social security in Malaysia. While the social insurance principle is present on a very limited scale through SOCSO, and while Pay-As-You-Go (PAYG) type arrangements exist for government pensionable employees, the primary reliance is on a mandatory savings pillar to provide social security. Thus, in the World Bank's multi-pillar social security framework (The World Bank, 1994), Malaysia relies primarily on the second pillar."

The publication stated that the "role of informal social security through the family and community remains significant" (Holzmann, MacArthur & Sin, 2000). However, the same agency also noted that rapid urbanization and industrialization, lowered fertility and rapid population aging are damaging these arrangements. Having more children means that the dependency ratio is better distributed, but population trends show that it is a luxury that future generations cannot afford. In the absence of universal pension coverage, this arrangement seems feasible but is very much dependent on family values, cultural practices and family relationship dynamics.

Societies must plan for the future and planning would require data to begin with for analyses and understanding. As Hoskins (2002) said, "a fair and just measure of society is to assess how well it takes care of its older citizens". The challenge now is for social security institutions to face up the realities of demographic aging. The Employees Provident Fund began in 1951 as a mandatory retiring savings scheme for the private sector, which allows early withdrawals for housing and health care purposes. It forms the largest component of the provident and pension funds system, followed by pension funds and then SOCSO (Holzmann, MacArthur & Sin, 2000). The most pressing question facing the EPF is the adequacy of its replacement rate in providing retirees with sufficient financial assurance to meet the basic needs in late life. In the face of inflation and increased life expectancy, there is a need to estimate just how long these funds will last. A UNDP study in 1995 reported that retirement funds only lasted for approximately 3 years after its withdrawal. Looking at the national average for life expectancy, the exhaustion of the retirement funds in such a short period is alarming.

I have yet to come across the report for the oft repeated 3-year exhaustion of EPF funds, and I have yet the opportunity to analyse or look at the data, the study or the background to back that UNDP claim, so I am NOT going to comment more on that.

The place where I work for did submit to the EPF for a study on the effectiveness of the scheme middle this year, but I think another agency was chosen to undertake the study. I doubt it has been completed. However, I do not know the progress and details so I will refrain from making assumptions.

Asher (1994) discussed the social adequacy, equity, saving, efficiency and growth of the social security arrangements in the country and noted that Malaysia has an appropriate set of institutions to begin with. Yet, the issue of social adequacy (poverty alleviation, income maintenance and health care) remains unanswered, as there's no official estimate of the subsistence levels achieved by the retirement funds. EPF is the most important retirement scheme for private sector retirees in Malaysia with almost 10.23 million members in 2002. It would not be an exaggeration to say that the financial future of the elderly in Malaysia is directly related to, or proportionate with the proper utilization of these funds.

Maybe I should stop the jargon and speak plainly without using the bulk of the literature review that was done.

I am not claiming that the Singaporean model is perfect. I have already stated that even the Singaporeans are facing problems with their approach. I highlighted CPF because like our EPF, there's little transparency and accountability in both. There is no need to be outraged about what the governments do with social security monies. I find it childish of some to think that investments must guarantee returns. Some even said that the dividends could be 0%. I suggest people to gain some basic knowledge about the matter as a 2.5% return is guranteed by the government under the EPF Act. Please be less ignorant people.

The reason for switch in CPF was multifold, and it wasn't just about making more cash liquidity available to the government. In any case, I am not saying that Singapore is our model, but the concept of CONTINUOUS income through old age is not some crackpot idea. As for Singapore's decision to withold part of the CPF of foreign workers, please bear in mind that the money is not only "theirs", no more your EPF money is "yours". I raise this issue here because I find too many stupid Malaysians claiming that it is "their" money to be used as they like. I am sorry. The EPF is not your neighbourhood bank, who is forcing you and your employers to give them money so that they pay you interest rates and can be defaulted as you wish. The EPF is not running high risk investments just so that you can have a better return than other forms of schemes.

I am agitated by the ignorance of some Malaysians who keep insisting on the wrong fact and barking up for the wrong reasons. Back to the issue of the full CPF denied to Malaysian and other foreign workers in Singapore, you have to understand that the monies is for old age, and also a form of available national credit. I remember back in the late 1990s, the employers was actually against EPF for foreign workers because they feel that they are paying the employees more. But a law in 1998 made it mandatory for all employers to fork out the 11% on their part for all workers, with some exceptions.

Do you suppose your employers give a damn whether you get enough monies to last you through old age?

The CPF issue taught the Malaysian government quite a few lessons on handling EPF monies, and generally, I say that the Singapore government does enjoy that right. The CPF or EPF money does not in toto belong to the workers alone. It is definitely not YOURS TO DO AS YOU PLEASE. The monies are subjected to provisions of law, and while you can have input on the forms of withdrawal and schemes, the EPF body is the executor of the sum, not individuals. After you got your money out of EPF, you can burn it for all I care, but the EPF is here for a purpose, and it isn't to "let you do what you damn well please".

The status of EPF money is akin to the taxes you pay. Sure, everybody screams that it is their bloody money, but technically speaking, it isn't.

The US system is eating into their social security monies and 401K schemes only proved that you cannot trust your employers for dipshyte (what, you conveniently forgot how many workers got burn in the Enron debacle?). I can only say one thing, ALan Greenspan is the Fed's Chairman and he is not the Almighty, and in any case, he himself agrees with the experts notion that the social security situation in the US is NOT sustainable.

"If the authorities are suggesting prudence in the management of one's own personal finances....then they will have to let the public learn from their own "mistakes" from a very early age."

55 is not a young age to learn about burning EPF monies. Many do not live long enough to recover that sum. This is not so much about EPF babysitting the elderly. It is not a either or situation. The EPF is trying to educate the people that they have to learn to save, albeit belatedly recognizing the fact that EPF funding was never enough.

As for moo.

"Come on, after living for 55 years and one still can't manage their own money? What a lame excuses."

Heh. Actually, chronological age is no direct indicator of ability (perhaps capacity). Look at the number of silly adults this country has!

"IMHO, it is a bad idea for EPF to retain the money, one reason is because EPF are lacking professionality to manage such huge funds. The more money EPF retain, the worst they performed. Previously, theedge has mentioned that EPF hold ~7% of the whole KLSE listed company stock, but involve little in management of ANY company."

I cannot confirm on your view about the lack of professionality in EPF. I do know however that the effects of the economic crisis will only catch up with us after about 4-5 years. I don't know if it is prudent to ask EPF to meddle in businesses OR managing companies, but I am sure it is an interesting idea.

The AARP in US for instance, is a huge money business, but we are skeptical of the trickle effects it claimed. But of course, the AARP shows that not everything has to come from the government and state-controlled social security system.

But I agree strongly with moo about the mentality of politicians, and might I add, many Malaysians, who wants their problem (and money) settled NOW, rather than taking the long term view.

Sincerely,
Chez1978

I myself do not support a paternalistic approach to EPF. I also believe highly in individual rights to have the money once they hit 55/56. However, the financial problems in old age remains unanswered.

Can the EPF reform itself to be more relevant when it comes to meeting basic monetary sustenance in old age? And old age, mind you, is not a date but a period. How do you ensure that you have continuous income when you are infirm and frail?

What are we doing to narrow the wealth gap?

chez1978: wow 19 full paragraphs to my simple questions? thank you...

Inspite of your EXPANSIVE dissertation..you STILL fail to grasp what my conjecture and postulations were (aiyah must use professorial language mah..or else how can understand, one?) {patience, patience..must also walk the talk..teach & NOT preach}

Lesson on Conjecture 1: Might DOESN'T always EQUAL RIGHT! Surrendering financial prudence & responsibility to the "Learned Authorities" to do as they see fit with "hard-earned" contributions opens up questions of "MORAL HAZARD" (Greenspan's words and not mine alone)

Proof on Conjecture 1: Suzhou Industrial Park, Bakun, EPF Building in Penang which the EPF doesn't even operate within(smells of a bailout of a "failed" developer?)

Lesson on Conjecture 2: Did you purposely "misread" my statement below:

'If the authorities are suggesting prudence in the management of one's own personal finances....then they will have to let the public learn from their own "mistakes" from a very early age.

Do we teach our young to "safely" cross the road? Or are we to "tie them to our apron strings" for the rest of our lives and "guide" them at every "crossing" in their lives?'

WHERE DOES IT SAY START AT 55?

I MEANT AT THE AGE OF 5 or whatever age when a child first learns the value/importance of financial prudence/responsibility!

eg. a young teenager of 18(the legal age decided by the authorities and NOT ME..if i had my way i would issue them the moment they learned how to count!) should first be given a charge card where FULL payment of whatever amount spent should be made at the end of the month(with a reasonable charging limit of course).This card should be in the name of the card holder with the full financial responsibility & repercussions. IT MUST NOT BE A SUPPLEMENTARY CARD...it however can be guaranteed/backed by the teenager's Savings/Fixed Deposit Account/ASN/ASB. Defaults would not only blemish their financial record but also affect their educational/future career prospects because it will be permanently recorded...to paraphrase: With Great Spending, Comes Great Responsibility (yessss...Spiderman Fan here)

As time progresses, when their financial records (eg. timely payment record etc.) will "qualify" them for higher charging limits and an extension of new "CREDIT FACILITIES"(not backed by collateral/savings/FDs/ASN/ASB). This facility will be granted not on AGE criterion BUT ON PURE ECONOMICS: ie You Pay On TIME, YOU GET TO PLAY...if not forget about that Petronas/JPA scholarship....(OR SUITABLE AMOUNTS TO BE DEDUCTED OFF from the said scholarship)

[Slightly off topic, as an aside]: Chez, i suggest you visit fora like:

www.lowyat.net

www.dslreports.com/forum/seasiabb

and many others where teens hangout, they may be young but they are FULL of BRILLIANT IDEAS & are very MATURE in their grasp of current affairs involving politics & finance....if you give our young a chance to express themselves, you WILL BE SURPRISE & PROUD of our Malaysian Youths...

All they NEED is for Oldies like you & i to STOP telling them what to do & start treating them like young adults; after all weren't we young once? Full of burning passion & indomitable fighting spirit! ALLOW them to make their own way in the world...even if it means a few boo-boos along the way....

TEACH & NOT PREACH! (yeah..and one more thing...stop HIDING behind all the FACTS & FIGURES, that's what the PAP in SG is VERY GOOD AT!...sure doesn't help them in their employment picture now, does it? What happened to all the CPF/Singapore Technologies investment in super-duper CD-drive technology etc that was going to be the next best thing that every TOM & his neighbour couldn't do without?)

Let the "free" markets decide...by all means mandate that every employee & employer should contribute to the EPF but give broad, FLEXIBLE & LOGICAL guidelines for the funds to be mobilised by OUR OWN discretion!

If i want to invest my funds in high-beta counters on the stock market, let it be...

If i should want to invest in property in Bukit Merah, let it be...

If i should want to buy a sailing yacht and go round the world ala Dato Mansor..let it be...

If i should want to invest it in my children's or my own education...let it be...

the difference between sentience & enlightenment is LOGICAL FREE WILL...to do anything within the legal limits...if the LAWS are restrictive, CHANGE IT....if the POLICIES DON'T make LOGICAL sense, CHANGE IT!

If someone should try to TELL YOU WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR MONEY (YES, whatever the spirit the EPF was formed in, IT IS STILL MORALLY YOUR OWN MONEY!)

Tell them to take a LOOOONG WALK of a VERY SHORT XxXz..

{NOW..you've got me started, Chez...i'm quite enjoying this...}

What Say YOU?

Chez1978: p.s. just as i'm sure you will have a suitable repartee to my earlier comment, i'm going for a short away trip to enjoy the natural wonders of nature, starting tonight & will only be back into the "real" world sometime next week....rest assured, i will have my replies ready when i next logon...

Cheers everyone have a good holiday break...

p.p.s in reply to your comments below:

"Can the EPF reform itself to be more relevant when it comes to meeting basic monetary sustenance in old age? And old age, mind you, is not a date but a period. How do you ensure that you have continuous income when you are infirm and frail?"

IF you TEACH the YOUNG the "Warren Buffett Way" from DAY ONE, they will learn to ALLOCATE their resources wisely for their old age, no need the EPF tongkat!

"What are we doing to narrow the wealth gap?"

Please look at the fingers own your hands, some are long and some are short....ie some people will always be better than others in managing resources BUT we should TEACH ALL the YOUNG; FINANCE 101...

at least that way the TIDE raises ALL BOATS, big as well as small!

Your efforts should not only be focussed on NARROWING the wealth/poverty division...it should STRESS on UPLIFTING the entire NATION...ie through better education...

lest you start to make "debatable points" about our education system, i'm strongly advocating that you should start with the ONE...

what i mean by that, is to "adopt" a YOUNG person; take him/her under your wing & TEACH what you know, educate & enlighten him/her...

avoid the pitfalls of dogmatism, expose your "pupil" to alternative views...introduce him/her to this blog amongst others: so that WE TOO can educate & enlighten him/her....

A FOOL & HIS MONEY is SOON PARTED.....but with KNOWLEDGE LIES THE PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT....

With that i bid one & all a fond Adieu...see ya next week!

Maybe Jeff yet to have time to check out the EPF trust funds investment conditions. Actually, the person who draft the scheme does not encounrage one to do so. First, you must have RM55,000 in your Account I(60% of the total), it means you must have at least RM94,000 to start investing. A person with a base salary of RM2,000 might reach such target in 10 years(with 10% increment annually). In short, a low income (below RM1200) will never have a chance to invest until they reach their retirement date.

Anyway, most Malaysian trust fund are instead a not trust worthy at all. The low transparency make it worst than the stock market. OTH, Asset Management are indeed a good perfomers, but the entry cost are too high even for middle class income group.

To the poor income group, in truth, EPF can do more than retainning the funds. Indeed, EPF should involve in property building, especially low cost house building for such people. The financing process can yield a better interest than putting in the Bank. In reality, no Malaysian bank are capable to give EPF a good interest, since the figure are huge that enough to diminish the Bank source of income.

It is not a suprise for the ex-PM rescueing MAS using EPF money, it is merely mentality: since the EPF funds is abundance, and if you can't find a use of it, it is useless. The only bad news is, the ex-PM is never a good businessmen, from day 1 till the year 22. (and it seems the Tun family members are all lack of business genes)

Chez, to your question :
"Can the EPF reform itself to be more relevant when it comes to meeting basic monetary sustenance in old age?"
It is difficult to answer. It is up to Pak Lah. IMHO, Pak Lah will not touch the before he settle the education issue. Since the politickus are so stupid , it won't take long for us to see some MOlEs get the heat.

Dear Malaysian,

You can take the matter to the courts if you think that you shouldn't be made to contribute to EPF. If you think that it violates your free will (whatever that is), and has a legal basis to that claim, I fully encourage you to exercise that option. Afterall, you're hardening your position into one of that wouldn't need social security.

You're full of conjectures alright, although the postulations are not quite clear. Too many conditions if you ask me.

Might doesn't always equal right, no say anarchy and freedom guarantees one either. Like I said, I am not one who clamours for totalitarian state to baby the people or with noble intentions, stiffling them in the process.

If you feel strongly that the mandatory contributions to EPF and other similar social security schemes are not necessary, go ahead and make your case. Instead of making proofs based on suspicion, I suggest that you try to differentiate between the concept that the EPF is based on and the administration of the process. More education is always good too, but it sure as heck doesn't guarantee learning.

"I MEANT AT THE AGE OF 5 or whatever age when a child first learns the value/importance of financial prudence/responsibility!"

Sure, start at 5. But funnily, coming from a person that is against government interference with finances, you're throwing back the education of financial knowledge to the government, and to start at 5, no less! Apparently, the fallacy of thought have not occurred to you. The card idea is novel, I'll give you that, the difference with the other forms of card money nowadays is that no government in the world are making it a must.

I applaud your enthusiasm for inculcating financial responsibilities in our young, although I am not quite able to relate that with fiscal prudence on economic scale. You do know that good economics is not about every citizen buying the cheapest sotong bakar they can find right?

The progressive "qualifications" for higher charging limits in your suggestion has high humour value. Hey, aren't you the one that screamed that it is YOUR BLOODY MONEY TO BE SPENT AS YOU LIKE?

"This facility will be granted not on AGE criterion BUT ON PURE ECONOMICS"

I don't know what economics model you're working on with that idea, but like I said, it is certainly novel and worth hearing more about.

As for teen hangouts, I have met many bright young individuals. I do not hold any people's age against them. I do not see the reason why the suggestion for me to hang out with teens come from (I do actually, in a way), but I am too tired to have to correct misperceptions.

Brilliant ideas perhaps, but definitely everyone of all ages can use more information, education, critical thinking, reasoning and knowledge.

I don't know how you define mature in "grasping" current affairs, and in any case, I have seen them expressing themselves. Without turning this categorically into a ageist segment, a young adult vs. teens, let me say this, I was a teen and I have been through adolescence, I think I am still a youth and I never really felt more seventeen in my life as I age, but I know a few things for sure - age only matters when you consider where did the years go.

If you really want a community teen website, try xfresh or even the ailing brat provides a more accurate picture.

Teens are not just bright because of the computers, okay?

AND NEWSFLASH FOR YOU, I AM VERY PROUD OF OUR MALAYSIAN YOUTH. Why, phack, I am one of them.

I don't have much fighting spirit, and I never thought that I was telling teens what to do. I believe in discourse, and I don't believe in giving anyone quarters on the account of their age, much less individuals who make remarks without thoroughly investigating their claims. As a case in point, I certainly disagree with many people on many issues, including many bloggers, but I do not think I have the energy or time to argue with all of them.

Who's preaching? The PAP in Singapore, mind you, have decided to put the battleground on facts and figures. That way, the legitimacy is fought on grounds above the tussle of sentiments. Whatever employment picture you're talking about, the Singaporean government created an efficient workforce. Efficiency is not perfection, but it is certainly something we can do with. Do not dismiss a country and its policies because you find certain aspects of it unappealing. I am not a Singapore-lover, in fact, I dislike the mentality and culture of the island state, but that doesn't negate my perception of its successes and failures.

"Let the "free" markets decide...by all means mandate that every employee & employer should contribute to the EPF but give broad, FLEXIBLE & LOGICAL guidelines for the funds to be mobilised by OUR OWN discretion!"

The entire concept of the EPF is a centralised fund management, state-sanctioned and guaranteed minimum return, it was a way to make the employers partake in the welfare of their employees and put aside a sum for mandatory savings. With the advent of developments, several introductions for withdrawal of EPF prior to pensionable age (HENCE YOUR INFAMOUS 55/56) was made (for housing, children's education etc), but some figure has to remain in the EPF account which was originally created to see you through old age.

"If i want to invest my funds in high-beta counters on the stock market, let it be...

If i should want to invest in property in Bukit Merah, let it be...

If i should want to buy a sailing yacht and go round the world ala Dato Mansor..let it be...

If i should want to invest it in my children's or my own education...let it be..."

Yeah, do that with the rest 91% to 89% of your money would you?

"the difference between sentience & enlightenment is LOGICAL FREE WILL...to do anything within the legal limits...if the LAWS are restrictive, CHANGE IT....if the POLICIES DON'T make LOGICAL sense, CHANGE IT!"

All laws are actually restrictive and prohibitory. In any case, nobody is stopping you. Go ahead. Go through the legal motions. File a civil suit. If you can convince a critical mass of people to dispose of the social security system and render it into a meaningless collection body from the employers, its up to how good you are at influencing thinking isn't it?

"If someone should try to TELL YOU WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR MONEY (YES, whatever the spirit the EPF was formed in, IT IS STILL MORALLY YOUR OWN MONEY!)"

Morally? What morally? Legally, the money in EPF is not touchable until old age, and any early withdrawals can only be made through the provisions prepared (Account A, B etc). You speak with so much righteousness about your money, well, I recommend that you try to understand what makes the money yours by studying the EPF Act and the appending conditions.

You want to get rid of the EPF because it no longer fits into your windfall upon retirement image? Go ahead. I am sure you can find many dim individuals to go along with the idea. I wish upon you many filial children. Live long and prosper.

Dear Malaysian,

Enjoy your trip.

"IF you TEACH the YOUNG the "Warren Buffett Way" from DAY ONE, they will learn to ALLOCATE their resources wisely for their old age, no need the EPF tongkat!"

If everyone are millionaires, we will have inflation honey. Don't they teach you economics anymore? There will always be a bottom 10%. The only thing we can do is to narrow the gap, not make everyone rich - there is no such thing.

"Please look at the fingers own your hands, some are long and some are short....ie some people will always be better than others in managing resources BUT we should TEACH ALL the YOUNG; FINANCE 101..."

I absolutely agree. I am a major proponent of education, however, it would be naive to think that everyone would be able to prepare adequately for old age.

"what i mean by that, is to "adopt" a YOUNG person; take him/her under your wing & TEACH what you know, educate & enlighten him/her..."

Firstly, I would like to express a VERY strong sentiment here that NOBODY should start cults or any forms of hero worship. If knowledge transfer is supposed to happen, it should be EGALITARIAN. Your teachers who try to educate you are not your superiors. I regard anyone who is willing to educate me as my mentor, but I do not consider it their duty for securing my enlightenment. Similarly, I am not an advocator of herding mentality by means of knowledge enslavement.

I do not have my own pupils which I colour them with my own beliefs. Individuals have their own freedom to explore whatever notions they wish to entertain. I find it disturbing that Malaysian seems to be suggesting that one should establish master-disciple relationships.

"A FOOL & HIS MONEY is SOON PARTED.....but with KNOWLEDGE LIES THE PATH TO ENLIGHTENMENT...."

There are people who believe that knowledge is the path to salvation, enlightenment, etc etc etc. Just a word of caution, try not to think too highly of knowledge or the desirability of enlightenment. The pursuit of such will only lead to an elitism of unrealistic proportions.

I mix with teens in xfresh not because I am mentoring them, I mix with them because I enjoy their company and I learn things from them. In exchange, I offer then information if I can, but I don't tell them which doors to go through.

nothing intelligent on tv, so..

http://www.mti.gov.sg/public/PDF/CMT/ERC_CPF_MainReport2.pdf?sid=115&cid;=1178

http://www.bbk.ac.uk/res/pi/reports/

http://europa.eu.int/comm/employment_social/soc-prot/social/index_en.htm

http://www.adb.org/Documents/Books/Rising_to_the_Challenge/Sound_Practices/

I want to thank neilh for making available links for further reading.

BTW, chez, I agree with your point that EPF are the social security. However, I don't agree with the point that the money doesn't belongs to us.
Afterall, we can't denied that person(s) who draft the 1st EPF scheme is a genius in social building.

Any country that without a retirement plans is looking for a trouble in the future. A scheme like EPF did curb certain level of inflation, it is so successful that we didn't realise it. The 20% of the contribution from the employment did take away some "HOT" money from the market. But it is also bad as the economy also need money to grow. The premiers before the Tun didn't realise it, and the doctor know little about economy(and education) and practicing it with pure lucks.

IMHO, the EPF funds is not means to save any company butts, but to stabilise a country economics. Since US lack of scheme like EPF, 401K did well on absorbing enough hot money from the large corporate. Since US inverstment funds is so diversifies and close monitoring from the SC, the plan just works. Greenspan is correct as he know the economy and human behavious well.

..takes time to open on account of the cover illustration..

http://www.asria.org/publications/lib/PensionsReport.pdf

neilh, so many readings, yet so little time.

Care to give a summary?

I think this is a sequence of ACA and Double Railway Project's incidents.
Wait and see, there are going to be more sinister attempts of this kind to ruin Pak Lah's political future untill the day he give up and submit himself to TM's cronies.

Goh, i'm too dispirited for too long to do that for now; need to find a job first - though it increasingly looks like i'll be like that man on the front cover of the last linked article...

Hope the EPF people have also taken note of the links; if the readings help their committee refine their ideas better or provide fresh perspectives, then i have not wasted my time.

Unemployed? no kidding.

What line of work are you looking for?

Malaysian get "nyanyuk" after 55 and they don't know how to count anymore. LMAO.

good for only one thing: information searches, especially for strategy consulting support.

goner, huh?

ps: i do have more means to written works than anyone else on this planet, though.

You ain't no goner neilh, you just need more mischievous friends.

MTUC was all fire-up on 12 May 2001 [http://www.mtuc.org.my/piket_seluruh_negara_menentang_k.htm].

Didn't hear no wimper from them no more!

So, what is it going to be? At 55 or next 15/20 years or the day we die, whichever comes first? This may sound a bit perverse, but a lot of people are richer dead than alive. Hmmm.

Deng,

How about a picnic in front of EPF? Weather ain't good but if you carry some posters, it might cheer the crowd, hehe!

In Taiwan the opposition is in power today, not the Kuomintang. They are not any worse off. Why don't we give it a try? It is not forever, just a few years.

Some has been said about Singapore CPF being a good model for employee savings fund. It beats me how you could collect so much more from a population that won't spill into the sea.

Singapore is as good as paradise on earth in many respects. It'll stay as such if you could totally weed out mischief from fun loving Singas I know.

Dear Picked At,
As far as I know there is no law against having a picnic. Or for that matter, in front of EPF. It is the traffic I fear.

I believe EPF is in Shah Alam now. Whatever happened to EPF Jalan Gasing?

Singa Tua,
Yes, Singapore is a good role model for many countries on many things, CPF and all, but the 'kiasu' mentality spoiled it all. Have you spoken to a Singaporean lately? Oops, sorry, you are one of them.

Singas are only fierce in Africa. This is Asia where the Tiger reins supreme, in case you have forgotten.

I think EPF contributor should be given a CHOICE when they reach age 55 to continue to put the lump-sum money that they are elligible to withdraw with EPF Board or buy an anuity plan with any financial instituition (Banks or Insurance) that pay regular monthly payment over the remaining lifetime. The EPF Board should not be the sole benefactor of this change of policy as there is lack of credibility and transparency in the EPF Board in managing the EPF funds. This is evident from the performance of the fund in which the EPF dividend rate declared had declined consistently over the last 20 years. There are many dubious transactions that EPF fund had been used for bailouts.

In fact, the focus should be on educating the EPF contributors on financial planning and preparing for retirement days.

The best solution is for the individual EPF contributor to decide what to do with the lump sum money. He/she should be given a choice on what to do with the lump-sum money that is due for withdrawal on age 55:-

a) status quo - he decide what to do with the lump sum money, including spending it fast and suffer in the later years. He must be made aware and responsible for his actions.

b) buy an anuity plan (with min. sum of RM50k-RM100k) with banks/insurance company that guaranty a regular monthly payment of RM x amount till he die. He can retain the excess money over the min. sum and spend as he wish or keep it in Banks or invest prudently. There must be continual education programe for EPF contributor to be personally responsible for their investment or invest in unit trust fund that is managed by professonals.

c) what the EPF Board proposed, ie. keep the money with EPF Board to earn dividend and allowed to receive regular monthly payment over 15 to 20 years or when the EPF money is depleted.

Woi Pak Lah, I thought come the next election I will give you my vote of confidence but if you screw around with MY money and MY early retirement plans, I will vote for anyone (animals included) who is not BN.

Deng,

Yeah, what happened?

Spinning or spurned? Or pusing-keliling?

Or are they unlucky because of the "F" word?

If the capital market has half as good governance how come some stocks contributors bought 15 years ago is only worth a quarter?

Your tiger lost the belang or waht?

Picked At,
What is all that again?

Deng,

EPF at Jalan Gasing! Gasing as in "Top", the silly thing you spin!

It may be a silly thing, but that is what your father of you used to play. Or is it too difficult for you? But then, maybe you prefered 'marbles'.

Picked At,

No, the tiger did not lose its belang. Lost more than a few hair perhaps.

In the zoo that is South East Asia, the elephant got very sick first followed closely by the rhinocerous which in turn infected the tiger and singa. Many 'monkeys' died too.

The elephant and tiger recovered whereas the rhino's sickness has become chronic.

The last I heard, the singa is stil ailing. I hope it is not terminal.

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