News Hounds: O'Reilly-Rumsfeld Interview

December 16, 2005

O'Reilly-Rumsfeld Interview - Part Three

O'REILLY: Once again, we are pleased to have Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld with us here in Washington this evening.

[COMMENT: A little bit of gossip. O'Reilly and much of the FOX New crew were in Washington yesterday to attend the Holiday Parties given either by President and Mrs. Bush or Vice-President and Mrs. Cheney. I know because the crew on FOX and Friends 1st have been proudly announcing that fact ad nauseam all week. At one point, Steve Doocy and Brian Kilmeade forgot that the lovely and talented classical pianist and their co-host, Lauren Greene, was NOT invited to either party and there was a moment of awkwardness. Ms. Greene handled it well, but I thought she seemed hurt. Now back to the interview.]

O'REILLY: This time next year the Iraqis, I assume, be able to fight their own battle, right? That'll be almost four years of training them. For four years, they oughta be able to fight their own battle this time next year. Yes? No?

RUMSFELD: They are getting better every day, every week, every month. They are taking more and more responsibility every month and that's a good thing. The important thing [sic] are not the numbers or the weapons. It's the ribcage of an organization. And think how long it takes us in our country to develop noncommissioned officers who can provide that kind of leadership and the middle-level lieutenant colonels and captains in the military who provide the ribcage for our institution. Then they've got to do all the soft things. They've got to connect the army to the police. They've got to connect the army and police both to the intelligence. And they have - so these are things they have to do that you don't just do by the numbers mechanically. And if you think about it, those people in that country, in a repressive regime, were trained to be fearful and to not take initiative and not to call audibles, but to do exactly what they were told or die. That's why there's hundreds of thousands of dollars...

O'REILLY: Four years, though ...

RUMSFELD: ... hundreds of thousands of bodies in those mass graves.

[COMMENT: Interesting that Rumsfeld confused "dollars" with "bodies." Guess we know what's uppermost in his mind.]

O'REILLY: Now, I understand. I - we understand the psychological damage done to the whole society over there. But I'm just - this time next year I think they should be able to ...

RUMSFELD: They'll be - they'll be so much better able to take care of their own affairs.

O'REILLY: So then we can draw down over there?

RUMSFELD: Oh, I'm hopeful we're going to draw down from 160,000 down to 137,000 after the elections ...

O'REILLY: Right.

RUMSFELD: ... as we see that things are settled. And, then, it's conditioned, base - clearly General Casey and General Abizaid will come to me and the President and say: I think we can pass off more responsibility and we can shift our emphasis more to training and equipping and less to presence because we'll have, I think, 230,000 - we've got 214,000 now - security forces. It'll be higher by then.

O'REILLY: Right.

RUMSFELD: And - uh - and ...

O'REILLY: Alright. So you're optimistic this time next year the complexion of the fight will have been changed a lot?

RUMSFELD: I am optimistic.

O'REILLY: I hope ...

RUMSFELD: I could be wrong. I've been wrong in my life, but , but I am optimistic.

O'REILLY: Well, you were wrong about the insurgency. But so was I. So was I.

RUMSFELD: Um-hm.

O'REILLY: Now, coerced interrogation. Today looks like they have a deal. U.S. military, CIA, no one can use torture, what they call torture - I call it coerced interrogation. That gonna hurt your effort?

RUMSFELD: Oh, not the military at all, no. No, we don't - we've had humane - rules that require humane treatment from the beginning.

O'REILLY: Yeah, but they've been broken in Iraq (ph).

RUMSFELD: Well, any rule can get broken in, which case you have to have a court martial and punish somebody, and that's what's been happening.

O'REILLY: But like waterboarding for the CIA. That gonna hurt your effort?

[COMMENT: Why is Bill O'Reilly is so obsessed with waterboarding? This particularly gruesome form of torture seems to hold a strong fascination for him, to the point where he defends its use whenever he can. To my mind, this seems ghoulish and unhealthy.]

RUMSFELD: In terms of - from the Defense Department standpoint, the arrangement that's been made does not have implications ...

O'REILLY: No.

RUMSFELD: ... because we have had requirements for humane treatment from the beginning. And any time there's been something other than humane treatment, there's been prosecution and punishment.

[COMMENT: So far those prosecutions have only been of the lowest of the low in the command structure, yet there is mounting evidence that the decision to allow torture or, at the very least, look the other way can be traced directly to the offices of the Secretary of Defense himself. There is also evidence that Rumsfeld authorized a secret interrogation unit within the DoD, one that is not answerable to the Congress.]

O'REILLY: But here's the linkage. For the Defense Department and you, particularly, as the boss, to make an intelligent decision about what to do with our forces, you need information. The CIA says we need to get information and sometimes we need to use waterboarding and coerced interrogation. Congress is now saying to the CIA: You cannot do that any longer.

RUMSFELD: Um-hm.

O'REILLY: That's got to impact on your intelligence. It's got to.

RUMSFELD: I don't - I'm, I'm gonna talk about DoD and not the agency. They handle their ...

O'REILLY: But you get intel from them.

RUMSFELD: We get intel from all kinds of sources.

O'REILLY: Alright.

RUMSFELD: I, I think it's ...

O'REILLY: Is the coerced interrogation ban gonna make it harder to wage the war on terror?

RUMSFELD: Time will tell. (O'Reilly laughs.) But - well, if I knew the ans ...

O'REILLY: In your opinion.

RUMSFELD: ... if I knew the answers to those questions, I'd give them to you. But I don't know. From our Department of Defense standpoint, the President issued requirements for humane treatment. I issued requirements for humane treatment. Everything that was done by way of policy had to adhere to humane treatment. And anything that was not humane that was done by Department of Defense employees was, was ...

O'REILLY: Adjudicated?

RUMSFELD: ... adjudicated and punished.

O'REILLY: Alright. So you and Dick Cheney aren't the torture guys that you that the New York Times says you are?

RUMSFELD: Oh, my goodness gracious.

O'REILLY: Make you mad when they say that?

RUMSFELD: Oh, goodness. How would you like it?

O'REILLY: They say it about me all the time. I don't like it. (Both men laugh.) Alright. We promised we'd give the secretary a minute at the end of the interview, because we are very pleased for - that you came in here and spoke with us and have been straightforward all through the conversation. - to say whatever you want. Go ahead.

RUMSFELD: Well, I just would like to say this. If you think about it, there's - there's a lot of politics in this town and a lot of kinds of things you've been talking about, allegations about this and allegations about that. But there are also some really wonderful things going on in this world of ours and in our country.

[COMMENT: OK. Here comes the closer. In the following statement Rumsfeld tugs at our heartstrings, basically saying that, because the DoD has done lots of good things and because the American public donates lots of money to charity, everyone should back off on the the bad things that his department has done. As for Katrina, the record in that debacle speaks for itself. It was a total failure at all levels of the federal government, yet here's Rumsfeld, wearing a nice pair of rose-colored spectacles, claiming it as a positive for the DoD.]

RUMSFELD: You have the, the efforts that the Department of Defense engaged in with respect to the tsunami relief this year, the efforts at Katrina and Rita, the work that they're still doing over in Pakistan with the earthquake, where 73,000 people died and hundreds of thousands of people are homeless. You have the, the billions of dollars that the American people give to charities for people in our country and people all across the globe. And I would say also, you've got roughly two million people who have volunteered to serve in the United States military and send ...

O'REILLY: Right.

RUMSFELD: ... they're not drafted, they're not coerced, they're not forced. They said: Send me.

O'REILLY: That's right.

RUMSFELD: And they're in danger ...

O'REILLY: Hey, listen, I'm with you all the way.

RUMSFELD: And we're in their debt.

O'REILLY: They're doing a magnificent job.

RUMSFELD: This is a great country.

O'REILLY: I agree with you. Merry Christmas.

RUMSFELD: Thank you, Merry Christmas.

O'REILLY: Mr. Secretary, thanks for coming in here, sir.

RUMSFELD: Thank you.

Reported by Marie Therese at December 16, 2005 03:33 PM

Comments

That's why there's hundreds of thousands of dollars...

O'REILLY: Four years, though ...

RUMSFELD: ... hundreds of thousands of bodies in those mass graves.

yeah, my guess is there is hundreds of thousands of dollars in unmarked graves...er accounts in switzerland....

perhaps the 9 billion unaccounted for by KBR?

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 03:44 PM

. because we have had requirements for humane treatment from the beginning. And any time there's been something other than humane treatment, there's been prosecution and punishment.
rumdum
***********
hey, what about your handwritten annotations on the torture documents presented on frontline??

I don't think this guy could tell the truth from fiction.....just have to post this from southpaw again tho.....

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 03:49 PM

Reported by: Marie Therese
-------------------------------------------------
Marie Therese,

I've noticed this, too. Maybe it's the water, something with the water -- maybe that's why he was in the SHOWER whenever he was sexually harrasing that young female employee of Faux.

Sex/degradation/water/harrassment/domination/submission----

hmmmmmmm....yes, falafel does seem to have some issues.

Scarlet, PbD

Posted by: Scarlet, PbD at December 16, 2005 03:58 PM

does any of this suprise anyone? that faux news would be attending Whitehouse "holiday" parties just confirms the belief that FNC is nothing short of the old Soviet standby....Tass News Agency.........when will they start singing "The Internationale'"?

Posted by: joeyess at December 16, 2005 04:16 PM

Posted by: joeyess at December 16, 2005 04:17 PM

sorry 'bout the double post.

Posted by: joeyess at December 16, 2005 04:17 PM

joeyess,

I would have to agree with you there. On top of the 'Holiday Parties' (my, how could they attend when it wasn't called a CHRISTMAS PARTY) they get all these exclusive interviews.

You'd have to be a complete moron to not take Faux for what it is - a state controlled network.

But, that's where they get their audience - the faux faithful where they can hear EXACTLY what they WANT to hear regardless if it's true or not. Faux can't waste their time with 'FACTS'.

Scarlet, PbD

Posted by: Scarlet, PbD at December 16, 2005 04:20 PM

There has to be some reward for selling out your country on a daily basis. I guess it's worth it to them. Treason=priceless

Posted by: ganesha at December 16, 2005 04:21 PM

Reported by: Marie Therese

Marie Therese....maybe some bully held billy's head underwater at summer camp......long ago, far away.

Posted by: joeyess at December 16, 2005 04:22 PM

But, that's where they get their audience - the faux faithful where they can hear EXACTLY what they WANT to hear regardless if it's true or not. Faux can't waste their time with 'FACTS'.

Scarlet, PbD

Posted by: Scarlet, PbD at December 16, 2005 04:20
yup!!!

Posted by: joeyess at December 16, 2005 04:23 PM

"yeah, my guess is there is hundreds of thousands of dollars in unmarked graves"

Sounds like the plot from "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly". I wonder which character Secretary Rumsfeld should play?

I find it hard to listen to him anymore. I mentioned in a previous post that Rumsfled was on PBS (Newshour) last week and was trying to say that the casualty numbers among the US forces in Iraq was being inaccurately reported by the media because even though 2110 had died in Iraq, only 1664 were killed in combat. Like that is suppose to make everyone feel better.

Posted by: bluemoon78 at December 16, 2005 04:24 PM

Rumsfeld knows that he is one of the bad guys and that's why he always looks so uncomfortable, like he needs to take a shit.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:27 PM

As I was reading rummy's comments, it occurred to me that I've seen or heard these comments before. So I googled and found the interview I was thinking about. It's from Dec. 8th of this year and it's with Jim Lehrer of PBS. Here is the link in case anyone else is suffering from Deja vu.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/fedagencies/july-dec05/rumsfeld_12-08.html

Ah that rummy, one set of talking notes fits all.

ufo

Posted by: ufoshadow at December 16, 2005 04:28 PM

Posted by: bluemoon78 at December 16, 2005 04:24 PM
-------------------------------------------------

It does not make the 60% who oppose the war feel any better. It does make Rummy and his compadres feel better-- I guess.

Posted by: Jorge at December 16, 2005 04:29 PM

Jorge,
The money makes them feel better, the interviews just pass the time.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:34 PM

Good point there.

Posted by: Jorge at December 16, 2005 04:35 PM

"U.S. military, CIA, no one can use torture, what they call torture - I call it coerced interrogation."
----------------------------------------
And you call it a difference of opinion, and I call it bullsh*t. And you call it an interview, and I call it bullsh*t. And you call it "no spin", and I call it ... Where's that thesaurus?

Posted by: John L at December 16, 2005 04:38 PM

I'm surprised Rummy didn't bring up winning the GWOT by defeating the ELGI's. Make up some new words and you get to make up new implications, tone and tenor to go with it. If it isn't called torture then maybe it's good. If it's called no child left behind then cutting education spending is good. If it's called tax cuts instead of making our children pay then its good.

When will the sheep learn?

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:44 PM

May it finally be true ? Will they finally go down ? Usually Rumsfeld can talk his way out of trouble fairly well but this interview with a conveniently friendly O'Leilly is an embarrasment for Rumsfeld. It has been mentioned in one of the posts (maybe another part of the interviews) that Rumsfeld is a master of spin and that is certainly true. Even one of their masters now has difficulties holding his own.

Rove in trouble, Rumsfeld in trouble, Cheney in trouble... It seems George's little fantasy world is falling apart. I wonder how this will end ? Strange though how Clinton was taken on so viciously over lying over his relationship with Lewinsky. When will you start crying impeachment my RW friends ? I guess Dean, Kerry and Murtha will not be offering excuses as has been asked by some of the b*** supporters. If they would then these excuses will certainly be accompanied by more 'nasty' questions.

Serves them right. Those hundreds of thousands of dollars... uh, dead bodies... It does say a lot about the man.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 04:48 PM

O'REILLY: Now, coerced interrogation. Today looks like they have a deal. U.S. military, CIA, no one can use torture, what they call torture - I call it coerced interrogation.

O'REILLY: Is the coerced interrogation ban gonna make it harder to wage the war on terror?

Coerced Interrogation???!!!

So, Billy Boy, what was all that you said about the left wanting everything to be "Politically Correct?"

HAPPY HOLIDAYS, Bill!!

Posted by: Janet Lynn at December 16, 2005 04:49 PM

Rummy seems like the type who believes his own lies. As long as he says that he is against torture then even when he writies memos that allow it, he still knows that he is against it. Reminds me of the psych experiments where people were asked to turn up the shock therapy everytime the subject(actor) got a question wrong and they just kept turning it up even when the subject(actor) was screaming in agony(acting).

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:53 PM

If it's called tax cuts instead of making our children pay then its good.

When will the sheep learn?

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:44 PM

Apparantly this seems to be the by-product of capitalism. Me, me, me and more, more more. Bushco and friends now these words very well. I suspect they use them as a mantra.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 04:54 PM

Bushco and friends now these words very well. I suspect they use them as a mantra.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 04:54 PM

Should be :

Bushco and friends know these words very well. I suspect they use them as a mantra.

> I should really read what I typed before hitting the post button. I find myself making way too many corrections.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 04:56 PM

ahebah,
Another case of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. People see capitalism working as an economic model to promote the growth of more efficient business and they apply it to everything they do.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 04:57 PM

RUMSFELD: ... they're not drafted, they're not coerced, they're not forced. They said: Send me.

Yes, send us, but only if the plan is well thought out, troops are fully equipped, and we have broad international support. It CAN be done. I had all this in Afghanistan. My wife did not in Iraq

Posted by: Paul at December 16, 2005 04:57 PM

RUMSFELD: ... they're not drafted, they're not coerced, they're not forced. They said: Send me.

So that's where the rw neo con trolls and shills get that bs from

as a war vet who was a volunteer.....i simply abhore that argument!

no one volunteered to be MISUSED for political reasons....

the other straw is to say we have to send more to die to honor those who have already died for a mistake!

really steams me up when they use that bs....

and usually it's some rw neocon troll on here who's also a chickenhawk...just like rummy, lil w and especially hallicheney...

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 05:03 PM

Either the administration has some compulsive urge to make the USA more safe and they truly only do apply (near) torture techniques to only the most guilty of guilty ones, or they have found themselves a way to earn themselves an oiltanker full of money. I always wonder why the supporters of this bunch of lying thugs, choose the latter ?

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:04 PM

Sunnis on hit list
Asia Times, December 17, 2005

A Shi'ite militia has drawn up plans to kill prominent Sunni leaders and eliminate a nascent Sunni political party, according to a document obtained by Asia Times Online from a person close to the Iraqi resistance. The document, which has not been officially acknowledged, carries the LETTERHEAD OF SCIRI (Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq), the political party of which the Badr Organization is the armed wing...

...According to contacts that Asia Times Online spoke to in Iraq, the activities of the BADR ORGANIZATION against Arab Sunnis started with the targeting of former Iraqi Air Force officers and pilots. The contacts said that OVER THREE DOZEN FORMER IRAQI AIR FORCE PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN KILLED. The Iraqi resistance is sure that the Badr Organization is behind most of the killings, having been provided information on some of the targets by Iranian intelligence.

However, the Iraqi resistance is surprised how a list of the officers trained in Pakistan was handed over to Badr. The only possible conduit is Pakistan's providing the list to the CIA, and the CIA PASSING IT ON TO BADR...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GL17Ak01.html

Image of the doucment
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/images/badr-document.gif

Posted by: -R at December 16, 2005 05:04 PM

Especially seen that they haven't accomplished much in the department of making the country safer. Are these administration fans truly this naive ?

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:09 PM

Ahebah,
The sad thing is that there really isn't a way out of this situation. Things just keep getting worse everyday.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:10 PM

Right on woke dude! Over 50 percent of the officers in my unit resigned their commissions or retired after our tour. The main reason was because of the "well..you knew what you getting into" comment that we heard all the time. Yes, we knew what we were getting into, an army to be used as a last resort, competently lead by professional military officers. We don't have that now.

Posted by: Paul at December 16, 2005 05:11 PM

Makes me think of michael moore's new book, which is letters from US soldiers in Iraqnam and afghanistan (remember that place?...."Will They Ever Trust Us Again?"

http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/index.php

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 05:17 PM

Positive J, have you seen how the usually greased up Rumsfeld could not even properly handle this interview. I wouldn't like to be in his shoes once things really get bad. And this goes for all the rest of them too.

I don't want to sound too optimistic as these guys have outfoxed the public more then once, but I must say the signs are good. Scandal after scandal is being piled up. Let's see them save themselves.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:20 PM

Paul,
I want you to know that I support your decision and great respect for someone that can analyze a situation and make a responsible decision.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:20 PM

J – There is a way out. 1) Bush as got to admit to his mistakes and his arrogance 2) We ask (beg) the international community for troop support (was done in Afghanistan) 3) We release the full fury of the US military on fighting insurgents one city at a time (we are good at that) 4) We leave the city and international troops backfill for peacekeeping operations (they are good at that) 5) We keep widening the circles of security until we encompass the entire country. This has been the CENTCOM and War College plan more or else since the first Gulf War. And as they “Good idea, can’t be done”

Posted by: Paul at December 16, 2005 05:24 PM

If Rumsfeld would have been an Iraqi he would now be on trial in Bagdad for war crimes.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:25 PM

Paul
1) We both know that won't happen
2) See b*** answer above
3) Intelligence failures and lack of local knowledge prevent this, see Viet Nam
4) True
5) Starting out local is a very intelligent idea and I agree it must be done this way.

If we could get help from other arab nations we might be able to build communities that are safe and let the people decide if they want to live in safety or freedom.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:28 PM

ahebah,
I doubt his loyalty goes that far, in a few years he'll be testifying against b*** and cheney.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:34 PM

"Rumsfeld knows that he is one of the bad guys and that's why he always looks so uncomfortable, like he needs to take a shit." - Posted by: J

Thanks for the laugh J, that is funny. Reminds me of the stick that is up cheney's ass which causes him to sneer all the time.

I bet a fun night for these guys is pulling wings off of flies or burning ants with a magnifying glass.

Posted by: Happy at December 16, 2005 05:34 PM

With O'Leilly being minister of information, much like the funny Iraqi guy in 2003.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:34 PM

Shia Vigilantes in Iraq
StrategyPage.com, December 16, 2005

Iranian Islamic terrorism is becoming more of a threat in Iraq, as Sunni terrorism fades. The Iranians are Shia Moslems, a sect of Islam that has a bloody history with the mainline Sunni Moslems. The Iraqi BADR ORGANIZATION, which spent over a decade in exile in Iran before coming home after Saddam was overthrown, is the most dangerous Shia terrorist threat...

Meanwhile, the BADR MILITIAS HAVE BEEN USEFUL TO THE U.S. by helping keep al Qaeda, and other Sunni Arab terrorists out of many Shia Arab areas. Where that is not possible, the Badr forces have fought the Sunni Arab terror groups, using tactics that the Americans cannot use...

Now that effort has grown to include Badr (and Sadr, and free lance) SHIA ARAB DEATH SQUADS PRACTICE VIGILANTE JUSTICE against real or imagined Sunni Arab terrorists...

It’s not going to be easy, and will be messy, to put down the death squads. These killers have been hitting back at terrorists who have killed many Shia Arabs. But ultimately, Iraqis are going to have to CHOOSE BETWEEN A BLOODY FIGHT WITH THE VIGILANTES OR ANOTHER DICTATORSHIP.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htterr/articles/20051216.aspx

Posted by: -R at December 16, 2005 05:34 PM

Thanks J. Pleasure to have served and wish I could have stayed in. Had to retire after this administration shattered the core of the military that my wife and I had served for over twenty years. The smuggness that exudes from Rumsfield every time he mentions the troops makes me want to vommit. Seeing him on Fox makes it even worse.

Posted by: Paul at December 16, 2005 05:36 PM

J, they may indeed eat their own soon enough, I can't wait. b*** might get off the hook as he did not take any of the decisions. Most of it was fed to him by his 'loyal' advisors. A pity for him he signed for most of their plans.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:40 PM

I bet a fun night for these guys is pulling wings off of flies or burning ants with a magnifying glass.

Posted by: Happy at December 16, 2005 05:34 PM

That is probably what they did when they were 8 years old and it has progressed since that to killing and torturing human beings.....

Parents, if you see your children being aggressive or torturous with pets or other animals, be sure to get them professional help before they become mass murderers....

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 05:40 PM

Paul,
It's disheartening seeing an organization that you care about destroyed by bad leadership. Sometimes I wonder if the neo-fascists stay in power because of all the tv time they get when arrested and embroiled in scandal. Clinton was certainly more talked about and well-known because of the millions they spent trying to bring him down. It could be they learned a different lesson from their campaign against him, something about any publicity being good.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:42 PM

"Things just keep getting worse everyday."

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:10 PM
----------------------
I like it. This could me the new Democratic slogan, or perhaps a new song to inspire voters. "Things just keep getting worse everyday" could even replace "Happy days are here again" at the Democratic convention.

Posted by: Flatlander at December 16, 2005 05:46 PM

ahebah,
b*** had the choice to get advice from others including Senators, but he intentionally surrounded himself with one type of people(I use that loosely). The buck stops with the president and I just can't put blame on anyone more than him.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:47 PM

Big News today:

The President in authorizing surveillance without seeking a court order has committed a crime.

The Federal Communications Act criminalizes surveillance without a warrant. It is an impeachable offense.

Is Faux News covering this?

Posted by: Renee[bd at December 16, 2005 05:50 PM

Flat,
Maybe you're rich, I'm not. What is getting better for poor people?

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:51 PM

Posted by: Paul,

"The main reason was because of the "well..you knew what you getting into" comment that we heard all the time. Yes, we knew what we were getting into, an army to be used as a last resort, competently lead by professional military officers."

Time and again the RW chickenhawks tell us (the actual vets) that those in the military "knew what they were getting into when they enlisted". Of course being chickenhawks they don't know that the paridim we all enlisted under (Reserves to back up Regulars in time of major conflict and Guard to protect their States) would be perverted and the Guard/Reserves turned into "Christmas Help", a cheap labor pool so the regular military wouldn't have to increase its strength or initiate a draft. They are trying to wage war on the cheap and lives are being lost because of it.

Think about it. In under three years of ocupation, many soldiers are on their second, third or even fourth Iraq tour. Compare that to Vietnam.

Posted by: Robrob at December 16, 2005 05:53 PM

O'REILLY: Now, I understand. I - we understand the psychological damage done to the whole society over there. But I'm just - this time next year I think they should be able to ...

Not too mention the physical and emotional damage with all those uncounted Iraqi civilian casualties. What the heck they are 'collateral damage' and therefore not intended. We have done all we could to limit the collateral damage to the absolute minimum, whatever that may be. I do wonder if you can use the term collateral damage in case you have STARTED the war ?

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:54 PM

Flat,
Check out JibJab 2005 year in review: http://movies.msn.com/movies/JibJab?gt1=7448

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 05:57 PM

If Rumsfeld would have been an Iraqi he would now be on trial in Bagdad for war crimes.
Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 05:25 PM
----------------------
If you were an Iraqi citizen before the war and made such a comment about a government leader, your tounge would be snipped off. You can watch the videos. The anti-American kook base of the Democratic Party is the best thing going for the GOP.

Posted by: Flatlander at December 16, 2005 05:59 PM

The radical reich wing of the rethugs is the best thing going for the democrats. And the democrats are the best hope for the U.S.

Posted by: ganesha at December 16, 2005 06:02 PM

"Things just keep getting worse everyday."

Posted by: Flatlander at December 16, 2005 05:46 PM

Again taking on people posting here ? I'd like to see what you think about Rumsfeld's interview ? How well did he do ? You see that is what this thread is about. Not particularly the Democratic convention, rather the failure of Rumsfeld to give a decent reply to most of the questions asked. And he had the advantage these questions were asked by a friend.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:03 PM

"Things just keep getting worse everyday."

Posted by: Flatlander at December 16, 2005 05:46 PM
"Things just keep getting worse everyday."

Hey, Flatlander, keep in mind the folks who are in charge of this counrty (just until next Nov, I hope) are the Republicans. Therefore following the logical progression......we have the Republicans to blame!!! Sounds to me like a slogan the Dems could use!

Posted by: Janet Lynn at December 16, 2005 06:04 PM

Flat,
We should be greatful for all of the neo-fascists protecting our freedom of speech like ann coulter, rush limbaugh, bill o'reilly, hannity... I guess you just have selective hearing when they say that dissenters should be hung. No I take that back, you agree with them and then you just lie about caring for free speech.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 06:05 PM

Posted by: Flatlander at December 16, 2005 05:59 PM

Just my luck that I am not an Iraqi citizen. What is your point ? What about Rumsfeld ?

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:07 PM

ahebah,
Flat hates us for our freedom.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 06:10 PM

RUMSFELD: ... they're not drafted, they're not coerced, they're not forced. They said: Send me.

O'REILLY: That's right.

Actually what they said was : "Send me if you think it is necessary for our safety." And then they pretented it was necessary and they did sent them. And then reality kicked in. No WMD, no really valid reason anymore and then the 'nasty' questions started. It's time for Rumsfeld to answer to some of those questions. Real answers please, not the typical answer we get from them.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:18 PM

What isn't known is the mic remained on after the camera faded out and over at www.bullshit.com they have the rest of the transcript.

O'REILLY: Well.... that went pretty well

RUMSFELD: Yeah after shoveling all that shit, I even start believing it myself.

Laughter

O'REILLY: Hey, listen, want to go out for a couple of beers?

RUMSFELD: No I have a better idea. My staff put together a 'best of torture' tape, really funny stuff. You know the panties on the head, boots to the testicles kind of stuff. Did you ever see an 'insurgent' making goat noises while eating bacon with a bible shoved up his butt? A real laugh riot. Why don't you wrap up and come over to my place.

O'REILLY: Sounds great!!! I could use a couple of laughs, I think I'm losing the war on Christmas.

RUMSFELD: Hey did you hear the one about this Iraq cleric goes into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder and……….
END TRANSCRIPT

Posted by: Happy at December 16, 2005 06:24 PM

Not only is Rumsfeld incompetent, this election will likely install a Shia majority that has at its core two parties,Dawa and SCIRI, which are both Iranian backed. Dawa is the group responsible for the 1983 Beirut bombing and SCIRI was founded by Ayatollah Khomeini to take over Iraq. How charming that the guys most antithetical to the Iranian mullahs have conducted an election in Iraq to install them as the ruling party.

Read the Tom Lasseter stories at Knight Ridder about the SCIRI take over of the Ministry of the Interior. They are avenging themselves on the Sunnis (the 2 prisons where torture victims were discovered were not on the organizational charts at MoI hq) and we're giving them uniforms,arms and vehicles to do it.

Juan Cole at Informed Comment has links to other articles about the Iraqi political parties.

It would be better if it were a quagmire than what's coming.

Posted by: TJM at December 16, 2005 06:25 PM

O'REILLY: Alright. So you're optimistic this time next year the complexion of the fight will have been changed a lot?

RUMSFELD: I am optimistic.

O'REILLY: I hope ...

RUMSFELD: I could be wrong. I've been wrong in my life, but , but I am optimistic.

O'REILLY: Well, you were wrong about the insurgency. But so was I. So was I.

RUMSFELD: Um-hm.

And so the years pass by.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:25 PM

Happy, you made me :) Allthough it is very sad...

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:28 PM

Posted by: TJM at December 16, 2005 06:25 PM

Rumsfeld is up to his old tricks again, isn't he ?

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:31 PM

I liked the way he didn't even deny being a "torture guys that you that the New York Times says you are"

he just said "goodness gracious"

What a guy, he won't even lie about not being responsible for torture.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 06:33 PM

"Happy, you made me :) Allthough it is very sad..." - ahebah

It is sad, America was once the beacon of light for human rights, was repected and admired in the world.

I have faith we will once again regain our reputation and NEVER forget how low we have sunk.

I will never forget the images of Abu Ghraib...ever.....

Posted by: Happy at December 16, 2005 06:36 PM

your tounge would be snipped off. You can watch the videos.
posted by Flat

uh, you selling those on your web site?

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 06:39 PM

What all the recent interviews coming from these people?

I believe that the people who do the handling of Bush have finally gotten through to him. He's in trouble and he's taking the rest of the republican party down with him.

Bush does these four speeches and the rest of the gang makes themselves available to selected newscasters and now it was just announced that Bush will do a live Saturday radio report and then Sunday night, after the football games, he'll address the nation from the oval office. He hasn’t done that since a few days before we invaded Iraq.

But Bush doesn't pay attention to the polls.

Posted by: edfromned at December 16, 2005 06:41 PM

RUMSFELD: Um-hm.

O'REILLY: That's got to impact on your intelligence. It's got to.

Maybe the intelligence will now become somewhat more reliable. Nah, I have never believed that the intelligence was wrong, it was fabricated. The advantage of torture is that they from now on can pin the fabricated intelligence on the enemy or some innocent muslim. How convenient.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:51 PM

It is possible that Bush wasn't quite aware that the intelligence was not to be trusted. Those around him did know without a doubt.

Posted by: ahebah at December 16, 2005 06:54 PM

ahebah,
He didn't care about the intelligence. There was a plan to invade Iraq and he hired people that made it happen. Intelligence had nothing to do with it except for the ad campaign.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 07:07 PM

w(easel) just had an interview with Jim Lehrer on the Newshour and said that Rumsfeld is not going anywhere. (Guess Joe Lieberman sucked up for nothing.)
McCain caved and the MSM is saying w(easel) caved. Now, the CIA can torture and say they didn't know they were. McCain is a disgrace to the uniform and the US Navy. Pandering to the worst administration in US history is not going to win him brownie points running for prez in '08. FLIP FLOP.

Posted by: Bushophobe at December 16, 2005 07:56 PM

bushophobe,
McCain is already too disgraced by the GOP to get their support (rove's usual work). I still say that it will be Frist in '08.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 08:00 PM

With all the concern with the rights of terrorists, I was stuck with how many court martials are going to arise with the new rules.
Frankly I'm in favor of coersted information, I think our interrogators should be issued a few of those $721 hammers.
Now for those of you who are concerned with enemy's rights and torture, let me suggest that there will be no more prisoners,if you get my drift, hee hee.

Posted by: gfl46 at December 16, 2005 08:16 PM

gl46,
Wow! Inciteful post, you are right to suggest that info obtained under torture is unreliable leading to more false alerts and more complacency.

I agree that torture should not be used on anyone. You are also correct in stating that with the "intelligence failures" that b*** keeps mentioning we clearly need to make sure that we are arresting the right people before we question them.

I also agree that taking pleasure in the suffering of a human being is evil and those people that feel that way should be watched carefully.

Finally, you are right to support the ban on torture proposed by McCain even though he is a Republican.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 08:22 PM

gfl46's post brought to you by another self-proclaimed conservative Christian.
"if you get my drift, hee hee"

Posted by: Foggg at December 16, 2005 08:50 PM

UK commander warns of Iraq split threat
Financial Times (UK), December 16, 2005

The commander of all British ground forces in southern Iraq warned on Friday that provincial polls early next year in the south could be violent if Shia parties splinter into factional fighting...

British military officials have said in recent days that southern Iraq has WITNESSED RISING TENSIONS BETWEEN RIVAL SHIA FACTIONS -- particularly between those allied to radical Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr and the so-called Badr Brigade, a militia loyal to the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

The two groups are allied nationally as part of a coalition of Shia Islamic parties that is EXPECTED TO GAIN THE MOST VOTES once the tally from Thursday’s election is counted.

But in spite of that alliance, the Mehdi Army, Mr al-Sadr’s militia, has had intense skirmishes with Badr as recently as August, when THE TWO GROUPS ENGAGED IN OPEN WARFARE in southern Maysan province...

http://news.ft.com/cms/s/ec004022-6e66-11da-9544-0000779e2340,dwp_uuid=c1a5b968-e1ed-11d7-81c6-0820abe49a01.html

Posted by: -R at December 16, 2005 09:05 PM

fog
I must say your attempt to gain the moral high road is completely lost on liberals, they have no morals.

Posted by: gfl46 at December 16, 2005 09:11 PM

another self righteous indignant

that's a plus, eh?

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 09:24 PM

might i be so bold to suggest you read Matthew chapters 5,6, & 7 my brother....

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 09:30 PM

moonbats, funny how the election in Iraq went GREAT and no one in here is happy. The war is won and the troops are headed home soon. I only wish GWB could run for another 4! You got to have guts to win.

Posted by: Joe at December 16, 2005 10:14 PM

4 more wars! 4 more wars!

eh?

oh, did we tell you, iraqnam is now an ISLAMIC THEOCRACY and will be controlled by IRAN's shiite militia?

Posted by: woke dude at December 16, 2005 10:19 PM

People seem to have short-term memory loss. America achieved "Democracy" thru civil war, not thru invasion or occupation. The Iraqi people will be the ones who decide, and I guarantee you the U.S. won't like the outcome.

One burgeoning theocracy telling the other to behave in their image. WTF. It'd be funny if it wasn't so dangerous. And why oh why oh why, would B.O. the Catholic, side with the Evangelicals? Never mind, the 2006 elections are at stake. They can kill each other later.

Posted by: JayMayandJoseph at December 16, 2005 11:35 PM

"I am not going to give you a number for it because it's not my business to do intelligent work."

--Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, asked to estimate the number of Iraqi insurgents while testifying before Congress, Feb. 16, 2005

--Number 21 of the 25 Dumbest Quotes of 2005

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/stupidquotes/a/dumbquotes2005.htm

Posted by: Nihilistic at December 17, 2005 01:37 AM

Mt: pardon me me, I could be wrong, but wasn't,or hasen't Gfl been banned from this site? Just asking............
Dnurse

Posted by: Dnurse,Pbd at December 17, 2005 01:01 PM

Posted by: gfl46 at December 16, 2005 08:16 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GawudawFuL
I believe there's a little document in our history which contains the words:We hold these truths to be
self-evident, that all( notice the inclusive here?) men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator...
I suppose you're going to tell me that the preamble to the declaration is not a legal document and therefore not relevant to legality.It surprises me, or maybe it doesn't, that the faction in this country which so often professes disdain for the legal profession and its practises so often and so quickly resorts to legalistic dodges when confronted with questions about their beliefs. Here I thought that we were a nation of laws based on a respect for human rights. That must have been the America I grew up in and fought for not the Amurka the homeland.I also notice that few of you ever wish to discuss the moral dimension of our actions in iraqnam to wit just who gave us the authority to determine for a sovereign foreign country just what form their government should take especially when those actions have taken the lives of so many innocent citizens of that country.
I also figured that since so many of you are creationists the fact that these all men are products of the creator ought to mean something, but I guess I forgot that for you georgists there's no authority but the george.

Posted by: donquixote'shorse at December 17, 2005 03:39 PM

ahebah,
Flat hates us for our freedom.

Posted by: J at December 16, 2005 06:10 PM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
But the way things are going the chimperor and his gang of simpering idiots including the constipated seeming rummy are going to have legislated or executive ordered away most of out freedoms so neither flatheader(standard apology to old ford engines)nor the terraists will have cause to hate us. I didn't think I'd live to see a SecDef worse than Macnamara, but rummy's got him beat soundly, Mac was even better with the press, Rummy always seems perturbed that he can't bluster or threaten to his hearts content and has to observe some modicum of civility even while dispersing the male bovine excrement that passes for information from the current regime.

Posted by: donquixote'shorse at December 17, 2005 03:52 PM