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 Feminine & Co-Masonry
 Belief in God
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George Combs

USA
20 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2005 :  17:29:21 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I was just at the Co-Masonic site for the U.S.A. and didn't see anything in the membership requirements for a belief in God.

whistler

1074 Posts

Posted - 08/09/2005 :  20:14:05 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Your are required to believe there is a higher power, call it/her/him/creator, they are just words and are your choice

Whistler

( A friendly Co-mason,
with a dyslexic & Dysphasic Keyboard)
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hubert

New Zealand
57 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2005 :  06:41:59 Show Profile Reply with Quote
And YES, ALL our Obligations are taken on the Bible, or whatever other religious "sacred works" the Initiate requests as their particular calling.
Atheists would therefore find it difficult to convince our Brn. that they have a true need for membership of a Masonic body.
Co-Masonry accepts ALL faiths as equal and sees no problem with such in regards to initiations or joining of the side degrees, as the TRUE purpose of the Craft is to help others in discovering their own "spiritual" roots.

Chers, Hubert
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Mike Martin

United Kingdom
2578 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2005 :  17:02:28 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I'm going to ask for some clarification as I am aware of two strands of Co-masonry (ie here in the UK we have LDH and the GL for Men & Women which are quite seperate). There are also two forms in the US as the Links Topic in this Forum shows. I won't include Memphis Misraim which is of course also mixed.

Are these statements true of both forms of co-masonry?

Mike

TFM.com forum moderator
Mersey, 5434, London,
Ideal Endeavour, 7379, W/Kent.
QCCC

Edited by - Mike Martin on 09/09/2005 17:03:48
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hubert

New Zealand
57 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2005 :  05:50:32 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hi Mike,
Re your question on clarification:
Yes, there are two strands of Co-Freemasonry both in England and USA.
Both were originally from the same source ~ IE LDH.
In the UK, the GL for Men & Women was a break away after some heavy handed action by the Governing Council in Paris, France. Hence we have the NEW group & those that remained with LDH.
Similarly in the USA about a 50/50 split occured from LDH, and that breakaway is now the "Eastern Order of International Co-Freemasonry".
Both groups continue to use Identical Ritual that they used previously.

Cheers, Hubert
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Mike Martin

United Kingdom
2578 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2005 :  10:05:43 Show Profile Reply with Quote
But do they both have the requirement of a belief in God?

The UK Grand Lodge for Men & Women (http://www.grandlodge.org.uk/) puts it this way:

If (Masonry) is really anything, it is a presentment by symbol and by legend of the great fundamental truths of human life and human evolution; and therefore, just as in the great Mysteries – of which its forms are really the vessels surviving – no distinction of sex is permitted; and because of that act in what we call Co-Masonry, it came into the position of being a possible instrument for helping in the evolution of mankind….. into the really Universal Brotherhood which it proclaims. The difficulty in the French Masonry, where this movement, Le Droit Humain originated, was that they left out that universal landmark of Masonry, the recognition of the Great Architect of the Universe. But when some of us here, Theosophists, became Masons, taking our Initiations, as we had to, from France, we said quite frankly that we could do nothing (with Freemasonry) in England unless that great landmark was restored, as we believed in the Existence (of God). As they were willing to accept us believing in Him, it was necessary that we should be given perfect freedom to use His name in our Rituals and to acknowledge His Power in our working. So that, in this respect, our English Co-Masonry differs from the French…… certainly so far as we are concerned, we follow the English usage and not that of the French’

Mike

TFM.com forum moderator
Mersey, 5434, London,
Ideal Endeavour, 7379, W/Kent.
QCCC
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hubert

New Zealand
57 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2005 :  23:18:38 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Hi Mike,
One of the reasons for the breakaway was this uncertanty about the "French" and the beleif in God.
All the Co-masonic Lodges I have attended ( principally the Commonwealth ones) do have the Bible on the altar, along with various other religious tomes.
In answer to your question re USA & UK, all the organisations, GL of M & W, LDH & Eastern Order have a prerequisite of a belief in a supreme being (GOD to most people) as a requirement to join CoFreemasonry.
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whistler

1074 Posts

Posted - 11/09/2005 :  21:04:52 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Have just heard the expression "Co-Creator" refering to Man....


Whistler

( A friendly Co-mason,
with a dyslexic & Dysphasic Keyboard)
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CoraB

United Kingdom
189 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2005 :  22:15:07 Show Profile Visit CoraB's Homepage Click to see CoraB's MSN Messenger address Reply with Quote
Hi Mike,

As it's been explained to my husband and myself, a belief in an ordering principle or intelligence is required, but how you fill that in is entirely up to yourself.

I believe that at a recent colloquium the issue of the Supreme Being was put to the vote. The French had expressed a desire to do away with the principle altogether, but by majority vote it was maintained.

Cora

--
Petitioning Lodge Light of Amen Ra No. 717 (LDH)
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Mike Martin

United Kingdom
2578 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2005 :  14:10:47 Show Profile Reply with Quote
I decided that the best way to get a definitive answer was to ask LDH HQ direct. I will post its response when I have one.

Mike

TFM.com forum moderator
Mersey, 5434, London,
Ideal Endeavour, 7379, W/Kent.
QCCC
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International CoFreemason

2 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2005 :  15:27:47 Show Profile Reply with Quote
On behalf of the British Federation of the International Order of Co-Freemasonry Le Droit Humain, I will endeavour to clarify some pieces of misinformation and misconceptions that appear to have arisen. I did post a detailed response to similar and other issues in 2002.
· Article 8 of the International Constitution of our Order states that our lodges throughout the world " work to the Great Architect of the Universe and/or to the Perfection of Humanity". In other words, lodges may choose to work to either or both.
· The British Federation has always worked to both. We will continue to work to the GAOTU and to the perfection of humanity as we have done for more than 100 years. The Constitution allows us to practise our (British) form of Masonry using rituals approved over the years by our Supreme Council. The British Federation's General Regulations contain unchanged Principles, as laid down by our founder Annie Besant, that "affirm the existence of a Creative Principle, under the title of the GAOTU and the maintenance of the open VSL in every Lodge". These Principles, incidentally, are no different from those previously affirmed by what is now the Eastern Order of International Co-Freemasonry and I would be surprised if they have changed them.
· Asserting the existence of a Creative Principle means that the British Federation asserts there is a plan for this planet and humanity that occupies it. We are free from dogma (another statement in our Constitution) and do not attempt to define who or what devised and implemented that plan. Individuals will have or will arrive at their own definitions. Without defining what He, She or It might be, we ascribe the title of TGAOTU and our obligations are taken on the volume(s) of the sacred lore. I say volume(s) because, whilst invariably it is the Bible, some faiths do not recognise that so an alternative would be used, such as the Koran.
· We have not changed anything in our rituals and, contrary to some claims, there are no plans - and there have never been any plans -to change them.
· All rituals approved for use in the British Federation either are the same as, or like our Lauderdale ritual, are more complex versions of those in use with United Grand Lodge of England, Grand Lodge of Scotland or Grand Lodge of Ireland.
· In Britain, we work the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite with degrees from 1° to 33° and we also work the allied degrees of Mark, Royal Ark Mariner, Holy Royal Arch and Knights Templar (the latter professing the Christian faith). None of these rituals has been, or will be, changed to delete or omit reference to the GAOTU.
· It is correct that some Federations within our Order, particularly but not exclusively those in Europe, work to the perfection of humanity and not to the GAOTU. As you will have seen from the above, Federations may work to either or to both, as the International Constitution permits them to do.
· The International Order of Co-Freemasonry Le Droit Humain has its own Supreme Council and does not derive its authority from the Grand Orient of France or any other body.
· The International Order of Co-Freemasonry is not French. It happens to have been founded in France, and the international headquarters are in Paris, but there are over 60 member countries and the Grand Master is Icelandic.
· Mention of a breakaway group is not correct. In 2001, four senior members were expelled from the British Federation by my predecessor for matters unconnected with rituals or beliefs. They and others then formed their own organisation which they called The Grand Lodge of Freemasonry for Men and Women, which we regard as clandestine and do not recognise. They persuaded about seventy of our members to join them.

Everyone is welcome to visit our website at www.droit-humain.org/uk

Fraternal greetings.

Brian Roberts 33°
Grand Commander
British Federation

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Mike Martin

United Kingdom
2578 Posts

Posted - 07/10/2005 :  16:55:11 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Brian,

Thank you very much for taking the time to help us out with this one.

Mike

TFM.com forum moderator
Mersey, 5434, London,
Ideal Endeavour, 7379, W/Kent.
QCCC
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ruff_ashlar

United Kingdom
2721 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2005 :  12:18:00 Show Profile Visit ruff_ashlar's Homepage Reply with Quote
It seems to me that so much of our insistence upon belief in a Supreme Being is Eighteenth Century clunky and almost Materialist in its lack of subtlety.

The prickly question of a planned cosmogony for the universe is one of the most controversial issues in modern science. It goes against everything traditional science since Newton has held most precious, but there is a growing body of evidence suggesting there must have been someone around at least to have pressed the plunger on the Big Bang. Trouble is, the messages are all mixed, it's more of a tantalising suspicion than a clear statement. I think science would prefer God's hand to come out of a cloud with the Revised Theory of Everything, just to make their job easier.

So, it means there are a lot of people whom traditional philosophy and theology would classify as Atheist, who are reluctantly prepared to accept the possible existence of a Great Architect; although he might, with apologies to Einstein, be a Blind Architect.

ruff_ashlar
GLoS 1515
SGRACS 523
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Alan Campbell

United Kingdom
150 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  00:41:38 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Great response Brian but there are 2 points that would be good if you could clarify.
1) "Article 8 of the International Constitution of our Order states that our lodges throughout the world " work to the Great Architect of the Universe and/or to the Perfection of Humanity". In other words, lodges may choose to work to either or both".
Does this mean that a british co-masonry lodge can work without the belief in a sureme being and still be regular in your eyes? which would also mean that people could join your lodge without this same belief.
2)"our obligations are taken on the volume(s) of the sacred lore."
We call it the volume of the sacred LAW, the difference is in one means to learn and the other is to obey,just a small point but i was wondering why the change?
Alan C
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whistler

1074 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  08:12:16 Show Profile Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Campbell
Great response Brian but there are 2 points that would be good if you could clarify.
1) "Article 8 of the International Constitution of our Order states that our lodges throughout the world " work to the Great Architect of the Universe and/or to the Perfection of Humanity". In other words, lodges may choose to work to either or both".
Does this mean that a british co-masonry lodge can work without the belief in a sureme being and still be regular in your eyes? which would also mean that people could join your lodge without this same belief.
2)"our obligations are taken on the volume(s) of the sacred lore."
We call it the volume of the sacred LAW, the difference is in one means to learn and the other is to obey,just a small point but i was wondering why the change?
Alan C


Hi Alan
We definately refer to the Volume of the Sacred Lore - Law as in Myths and Legends - I am reminded
"Millions of people worship the One True God.
Millions of people worship different Gods
It isn't God who is confused"
Whilst never seen or used it, I do like the Idea, of a Blank book on the Altar....

Your first question - The State of Perfect Humanity, and T.G.A.O.T.U.
are one in the same .


Whistler

( A friendly Co-mason,
with a dyslexic & Dysphasic Keyboard)
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Alan Campbell

United Kingdom
150 Posts

Posted - 05/12/2005 :  12:02:52 Show Profile Reply with Quote
Whistler, I think this is going to be one of those things that we are going to agree to disagree on,"Your first question - The State of Perfect Humanity, and T.G.A.O.T.U.
are one in the same ".Abelief in the supreme being can not be the same as a belief in trying to become the perfect human being or is the perfect humanity refering to a god?

AlanC
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