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Defending Against Harmful Nanotech and Biotech
Posted by
Roblimo
on Mon Mar 13, 2006 10:10 AM
from the something-wicked-this-way-comes dept.
from the something-wicked-this-way-comes dept.
Maria Williams writes "KurzweilAI.net reported that:
This year's recipients of the
Lifeboat Foundation Guardian Award are
Robert A. Freitas Jr.and
Bill Joy, who have both been proposing
solutions to the dangers of advanced technology since 2000.
Robert A. Freitas, Jr. has pioneered nanomedicine and analysis of self-replicating nanotechnology. He advocates "an immediate international moratorium, if not outright ban, on all artificial life experiments implemented as nonbiological hardware. In this context, 'artificial life' is defined as autonomous foraging replicators, excluding purely biological implementations (already covered by NIH guidelines tacitly accepted worldwide) and also excluding software simulations which are essential preparatory work and should continue."
Bill Joy wrote
"Why the future doesn't need us" in Wired in 2000 and with
Guardian 2005 Award winner Ray Kurzweil, he wrote the editorial
"Recipe for Destruction" in the New York Times (reg. required) in which they argued against publishing the recipe for the 1918 influenza virus. In 2006, he helped launch a
$200 million fund directed at developing defenses against
biological viruses."
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The development of nanoswitches has already reached a point where it will be possible to manufacture them reliably at low cost. Intels goal over the next decade is to build chips that hold more than one trillion switches."
[+]
Biotech Data Mining 33 comments
Roland Piquepaille writes "In the last ten years, biotech companies have been busy accumulating mountains of data. And it's becoming more and more difficult to find useful information about interactions between genes and proteins for example. It's one of the reasons why the European Union has started the BioGrid project. In Mining biotech's data mother lode, IST Results describes this project. Among current results, the researchers involved in it have delivered a better search engine for PubMed by analyzing over-expressing genes and predicting the protein interactions that are likely occurring. And many of the tools developed by BioGrid are available for public use -- even by yourself. For more information, this overview contains additional details, pictures and references about this project."
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[+]
Nanotech Gone Awry? 173 comments
westcoaster004 writes "Chemical and Engineering News is reporting what appears to be 'the first recall of a nanotechnology-based product' due to health risks associated with it. The recall of 'Magic Nano' spray, which is for use on glass and ceramic surfaces to make them repel dirt and water, comes after at least 77 people in Germany contacted regional poison control centers after experiencing illness after using the product. The German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment has also issued a warning." Relatedly dolphin558 writes "There is an interesting story in the Washington Post on the unknown dangers facing employees of nanotechnology firms. The jury is still out on whether traditional HAZMAT safeguards are suitable when handling nanomaterials, many of which can be harmful. Research into potential workplace hazards is beginning to ramp up as the industry and government become more aware of this issue."
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You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay ... (Score:4, Funny)
And I had no idea about his work in preventing bioterrorism. Hats off to you, Ray!
I would like to ask him a few questions, however, about his daily intake of vitamins [livescience.com]. I'm sure his definition of "breaking the seal" while drinking is completely different from my own. Try drinking 10 cups of green tea in a day. I dare you.
Yeah, this is the same guy who hopes to live long enough so that he can live forever. Keep on reaching for that rainbow, Ray.
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:4, Funny)
Depending on cup size, this doesn't neccessarily total more than 1.5-2 litres. That is about the normal water intake per day. Since tea is essentially spiced water, I see little reason why someone couldn't do this. Whether it is healthy is a different matter.
As a comparison, I drink about half a litre of strong coffee each morning, and another few desiliters at evening, and am exhibiting no symptoms - AAH ! SOMEONE SNEEZED ! IT MUST BE BIRD FLU ! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !
Sorry, that keeps happening; but like I was saying, I've not noticed any symptoms, so I cdon't see any reason why drinking 10 cups of tea each day would be particularly bad.
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:2)
I assume hi
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't know it that is true or not but I know for sure is that you DO NOT go on a Green Tea Bender if you a
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:3, Funny)
Hats off to you, Ray!
Yah. Tinfoil hat.
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, installing stairs in your home will hold the Roombas off... but dear Lord, FOR HOW LONG?
Adjustments are made as needed (Score:4, Funny)
I think it is safe to say that one of those "adjustments" is going to the bathroom every 5 minutes.
What are you saying (Score:2)
Some people won't accept mortality. He seems to be an extreme case.
But back on topic: while I think trying to keep a lid on the nanobot box is a worthy goal, I'd put its odds of success at about the same as someone living fo
You underestimate (Score:3, Insightful)
Sooner or later, all numbers come up.
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:3, Insightful)
I want to hear more people admit they are not qualified to comment Authoratively on important issues. I've got a really good mechan
What he *recommends* is what matters (Score:3, Interesting)
But I have a copy of Fantastic Voyage right in front of me. What he recommends is:
Re:You can call me Ray & you can call me Jay . (Score:2)
that being said, i take amino acids daily*, and omega-3s when my diet is low in fish/flax, and take half a 'one a day' multi vitamin 2-3 times a week.
when i take too many pills, my u
More about Ray's health... (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe /. needs an "Anti-Science" section ... (Score:4, Interesting)
Saying "be careful" is not anti-science (Score:5, Insightful)
We have done a good job (IMHO) of keeping our nuclear power plants relatively safe, but that's mainly because the kid down the street can't build a nuclear power plant. But he can build a robot [lego.com].
And imagine the robot you could build now with the resources of a rogue state. Or even a "good" state worried about it's security. Now imagine what they'll be able to build in 20 years. I could easily imagine Taiwan thinking that a deployable, independant (not remotely controlled) infantry killing robot might make a lot of sense for them in a conflict with China. And Taiwan's clearly got the ability to build state of the art stuff.
I'm not a Luddite, I'm not even saying don't make killer robots. I'm just saying that just as the guys working on The Manhatten Project [amazon.com] were incredibly careful -- In fact alot of their genius is in the fact they did NOT accidentally blow themselves up. Programmers working on the next generation devices need to realize that there is a very credible threat that mankind could build a machine that could malfunction and kill millions.
There is no doubt in my mind that within 20 years, the U.S. Military will deploy robots with the ability to kill in places that infantry used to go. Robots would seem very likely to be incredibly effective as fighter pilots as well. Given these things as inevitable, isn't it prudent to be talking NOW about what steps are going to be taken to make sure that we don't unleash a terminator? I personally don't trust governments to be good about this either -- I'd like to make sure that the programmers are at least THINKING about these issues.
You are so last century. (Score:3, Insightful)
You have to worry about terrorists of the future getting a hold of this. It's debateable if there are any true "rogue" states, as communist states are sanctioned and isolated. North Korea
Re:You are so last century. (Score:3, Insightful)
Asimov and killing robots (Score:3, Insightful)
But the hard point about the 3 laws, and the short-shrift given them was that it was *hard* to do. At the most elementary, *how* do you re
Robots are not a credible threat at present. (Score:3, Insightful)
Pandora's Box (Score:5, Insightful)
A moratorium or ban is the worst possible thing we could do at this juncture. The technology is available now, and if we want to be able to defend ourselves against the problems it can cause, we have to be familiar enough with it to be able to devise a solution. Burying our heads in the sand will not make this problem go away. Like it or not, Pandora's Box is open, and it can't be closed again...we have to deal with what has escaped.
Re:Pandora's Box (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Pandora's Box (Score:4, Insightful)
Close - it's like people who are so enthusiastic about the prospects of space travel, that they believe quantum warp megadrives may well be invented within a few months! And society isn't quite ready for that (perhaps in a couple of years?) - so we'd better call for a moratorium!
In another post you called them Luddites, I think they're just about the total opposite of that. These are the names you always see in the forefront of strong AI and nanotech speculation, the fringe that would be the lunatic fringe if they weren't so ridiculously intelligent. Does KurzweilAI.net [kurzweilai.net] look like a Luddite site to you?
Maybe Education is Better (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with the parent: bans are counterproductive in many cases.
Better is improved education, and I don't mean what you (probably) think... I'm NOT talking about "educating the (presumably ignorant) public" although that's important too. I'm talking about changing science education. It MUST, MUST, MUST include a high level of ethics, policy, and social study. I find it insane that people can specialize in science and from the moment they step into college, focus almost solely on their technical field.
Part of any responsible science curriculum should involve risk assessments, historical studies of disasters and accidents (unfortunately all sciences have them), and so on.
While we're at it, public research grants should probably include "educational" aspects. Scientists share a lot of the blame for the "public" ignorance of their endeavors. If you spend all your time DOING the science, and none of your time EXPLAINING the science, what do you expect?
Basically, what I'm arguing for is an alternative to banning things is the forced re-socialization of the scientific enterprise. Otherwise, we're bound, eventually, to invent something that 1) is more harmful than we thought and 2) does harm faster than society's safeguards can kick in. Once that happens we're in it good.
Re:Maybe Education is Better (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Maybe Education is Better (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Pandora's Box (Score:2)
Re:Pandora's Box (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, early on in the development of recombinant DNA research, there was a voluntary moratorium until appropriate ethical and safety methods were put in place. Those measures were enacted in an orderly, thought-out way, research started up again and it turned out that the fears were wildly exaggerated.
If a moratorium or ban is reasonably short-term and includes all serious researchers (voluntarily or through law), there's no reason why it can't be effective. Your vision of an underground is true for products like alcohol and marijuana, not for truly cutting edge research. There's no underground to do things that are genuinely difficult.
(Not, by the way, that I'm saying there should be such a ban.)
Re:Pandora's Box (Score:2)
This is the equivelant of banning firearms, only on a larger...must more destructive scale. When you ban them, only the people who are willing to break t
Three words... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Three words... (Score:5, Funny)
Don't fall for it! (Score:3, Funny)
Our friends at MIT have shown that tin foil hats enhance reception of government transmitters [mit.edu].
I shudder to think what a whole body suit could do!
Obviously... (Score:5, Insightful)
Independance (Score:4, Interesting)
Just because we may allow machines the ability to make thier own decisions and possible influence some of ours, doesn't mean we're headed down the food chain. For starters there will always be a resistance to any new technology, and humans consider independance an admiral, and desirable trait. For example there are many average people who will never want to, and arguably never need to, use the Internet.
While intelligent machines could improve the standard of living world-wide, we'll balance them to extract hopefully the most personal gain.
__
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Anonymous Cowards (Score:5, Funny)
Excluding Software Simulations (Score:5, Interesting)
Autonomous foraging replicators (Score:2)
I thought I'd be okay... (Score:5, Funny)
Two words (Score:2)
"Nanobots, transform!
Human rights for artificial lifeforms? (Score:4, Interesting)
And calling it "it"... how dare I?
I, for one, don't see the problem of having a thinking machine. We'll have to redefine a lot of laws. But having a sentient machine is not necessarily evil. Think outside the movie box of The Matrix and Terminator. But what machines need first of all is ethics so they can be "human".
On the other hand, considering some of the things going on in our world... if machines had ethics, they just might become the better humans...
Re:Human rights for artificial lifeforms? (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmm.... computer religion (Score:3, Interesting)
So if a machine behaves correctly and it pleases its maker,
Erh... really? (Score:2)
Yeah. Right, that's it!
A good defense... (Score:4, Funny)
There is nothing to "defend" against (Score:5, Interesting)
The bottom line is that nanotech is positioned to threaten a lot of big industrial powers, and become a trillion dollar industry in it's own rite. Contrary to popular belief, these concerns are not being pushed for safety sake, or to protect the world
A dose of reality (Score:5, Insightful)
* Overpopulation from immortality
* Quantum computers used to hack encryption
* Dilithium crystal polition from warp drives
Come on! If you are aware of the current state of nano-tech? We've got nano-bottle brushes, nano-gears, nano-slotcar motors, nano-tubes. i.e. we've got nano-progress, zilch. We are a LONG FUCKING WAY from any real problems with this tech, in fact so far off that we will likely encounter problems with other technology before nanotech ever bites us. Worrying about this is like worrying about opening a worm-hole and letting dinosaurs back onto the earth because some physicist wrote a book about time-travel.
We've got a few dozen other issues 1000 times more likely to kill us. Sci-Fi fantasy is an ESCAPE from reality, not reality itself.
Re:A dose of reality (Score:3, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outside_Context_Probl em [wikipedia.org]
It's only natural (Score:3, Interesting)
Can't We All Just Get Along? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:In summary... (Score:4, Interesting)
The machine would have to get enough energy, and enough raw materials, in more or less the right proportions, to do this. A general purpose eating machine would be so energetically expensive that it would stall before it could replicate. Life adapts itself to specific environments and foods because it's cheaper, and that makes the difference between life and death. Specific purpose life forms are efficient, and thrive in their ecological niche very well, but are no good outside of it. The closest thing to a general purpose life form, that can eat everything in its path, is us.
Not exactly nanoscopic, are we?
Re:In summary... (Score:5, Insightful)
The rest of your argument is good, but this is not a valid point. Evolution can only progress from point to point in the space of possible life forms in very small increments, when measured appropriately. (Earth evolution only, for instance, uses DNA, so Earth evolution can be measured fairly accurately by "DNA distance", but technically that's just a small part of the life-form space.)
There are, presumably, life forms that are possible, but can not be evolved to, because there is no path from any feasible starting life form to the life form in question by a series of small steps. Presumably, given the huge space of "possible life forms", the vast majority in fact belong to this class, just as the vast majority of "numbers" aren't integers (although not with the same ratio; presumably the set of viable life forms is finite, if fuzzy).
It is entirely possible that a "grey goo" machine, which would fulfill most definitions of life, can't be incrementally evolved to, yet it could still exist. It is also possible that it could be evolved to, but simply hasn't yet.
For all the complexity that evolution has popped out, it has explored an incomprehensibly small portion of the space of possible life forms.