Bush Ignored Concerns About Afghan Constitution, Praised It For Protecting “Freedom of Religion”

In Afghanistan, a man named Abdul Rahman has been put on trial for converting to Christianity. For his crime, he could be put to death. The incident, which has caused an international uproar, has its roots in the Afghan constitution.

Shortly after its passage, however, President Bush praised the Afghan constitution as protecting freedom of religion. President Bush, 1/23/04:

We’re making good progress, we really are, in parts of the world. Afghanistan has now got a constitution which talks about freedom of religion and talks about women’s rights.

But President Bush was warned by the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom — an independent government entity – that the Afghan constitution failed to protect freedom of religion. In November 2003 press release called “Constitution Threatens to Institutionalize ‘Taliban-lite’” the USCIRF expressed concern that the proposed constitution:

Since the passage of the constitution, several individuals have been persecuted in Afghanistan on account of their religion and the USCIRF have repeatedly urged the administration to act. Today, the USCIRF sent a letter to President Bush reiterating their concerns and their recommendations for action.

Of course, now that the right wing is up in arms, President Bush is pretending this has always been a priority. It’s simply not true.

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Posted by Judd March 22, 2006 6:00 pm

 

128 Comments »

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  1. What do you expect from a moron who has never read anything in his life. Do you really expect him to READ the Afghan Constitution. Hell no, he repeats what Rove whispers through the ear piece.

    Comment by yankeluh — March 22, 2006 @ 6:04 pm

  2. Feel sorry for the guy, but he should have known better than to believe Bush’s “freedom” bullsh*t.

    Bush is a pathological liar and a fool.

    Anyone who puts their trust is his words does so at their own peril.

    Comment by Bush Bites — March 22, 2006 @ 6:10 pm

  3. Threatens to create a judicial theocracy where judges who are unrestrained by checks and balances of other branches of governement, have the ultimate authority to determine the conformity of enacted laws with Christianity and must apply specific schools of Christian jurisprudence when no provision of law addresses an issue before them. This would allow for a religious orhtodoxy to be officially imposed, stifling dissent within the Christian tradition.

    Kind of like looking into a crystal ball, seeing the US in twenty years if we continue down this path.

    Comment by CheneyKilledNatalieHalloway — March 22, 2006 @ 6:10 pm

  4. He can’t or dosen’t read. This is our opportunity. Send him a bill that impeaches himself and he will sign it without reading it.

    Comment by Hardy Haberman — March 22, 2006 @ 6:11 pm

  5. Theocracies are all Bush and the Cheney PNAC cabal really want in the middle east. People will be rigidly controlled by our hand-picked leaders and then we in turn control the hand-picked leaders. All under the guise of spreading democracy and freedom. Bullshit!

    Comment by Mr. Evil — March 22, 2006 @ 6:12 pm

  6. Oh, and by the way, theocracy is what they want here too.

    Comment by Mr. Evil — March 22, 2006 @ 6:14 pm

  7. Hey, this reminds me of Chef getting outraged over the Scientology episode of South Park.

    Neither Isaac Hayes nor George W. Bush cared about what was happening until it pierced their thin skin.

    I’m shocked to find there’s gambling in this establishment!

    Comment by DS — March 22, 2006 @ 6:18 pm

  8. I herby order this establishment CLOSED!

    Here are your winnings, sir.

    Oh! Thank you very much.

    Comment by kindness — March 22, 2006 @ 6:25 pm

  9. Bush Ignored Concerns About Afghan Constitution, Praised It For Protecting “Freedom of Religion” because he and the religious right are busy trying to figure out how to get that admenment by the American people, just replace Islam with fundementaslist christianity….

    Comment by Clif — March 22, 2006 @ 6:26 pm

  10. Casablanca is one of my favorite films, so please bare with me.

    The American Talibahn is alive and well and lives in the republithug party.

    Look no further than S. Dakota illegalizing abortions, Missourri refusing to give adult, single women birth control.

    Bush lies.

    Comment by kindness — March 22, 2006 @ 6:27 pm

  11. There is no freedom of religion in Islam. You are not allowed to convert or even just become secular. The punishment for conversion is death if you were born a Muslim.

    The Hadith are part of the Sunni theology, and Sharia law is based on both Quran and Hadith. This is what is said about leaving Islam, or apostacy:

    Bukhari, volume 9, #17

    “Narrated Abdullah: Allah’s Messenger [Mohammed] said, “The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims.”

    Similar teachings are found in many oplaces in the Hadith. Conversion away from Islam is punishable by death in a number of Islamic countries, including some that have signed the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Islam is the only world religion that forbids independent thought in choosing one’s religion, and the only one that has the death penalty for leaving the faith.

    Food for thought…

    Comment by Annetta in Oakland — March 22, 2006 @ 6:28 pm

  12. Hell no, he repeats what Rove whispers through the ear piece.

    Comment by yankeluh — March 22, 2006 @ 6:04 pm

    Don’t you mean God… ;)

    Comment by unbelievable — March 22, 2006 @ 6:30 pm

  13. I don’t get it.

    I thought Georgieboy said we were spreading freedom and democray throughout the world.

    Comment by Joe Sixpack — March 22, 2006 @ 6:32 pm

  14. Give the President a break !! When he said “Afghanistan has now got a constitution which talks about freedom of religion” he just didn’t noticed that what it said was: “freedom of religion will be persecuted with death”

    Remember, he just can read children books, constitutions is too much for him

    Comment by Manuel — March 22, 2006 @ 6:40 pm

  15. supposedly, there is a setence somewhere in the qurran that specifically says that the haddith is not important. Something along the line that muhamud said muslems should not idolize him, but instead should focus on allah and his will as explicited in the qurran. I learned this from a muslem friend I knew a whiles back.

    Comment by Jianying — March 22, 2006 @ 6:42 pm

  16. I thought Georgieboy said we were spreading freedom and democray throughout the world.

    Comment by Joe Sixpack — March 22, 2006 @ 6:32 pm

    Apparently he has a special dictionary with opposite definitions… so he’s really spreading tyranny and fear.

    Comment by unbelievable — March 22, 2006 @ 6:43 pm

  17. it’s a start, he’ll be hung with a ’soft’ rope. women can use toothbrushes to scrub with, instead of their fingers.

    Comment by wisedup — March 22, 2006 @ 6:43 pm

  18. Something along the line that muhamud said muslems should not idolize him, but instead should focus on allah and his will as explicited in the qurran. I learned this from a muslem friend I knew a whiles back.

    Comment by Jianying — March 22, 2006 @ 6:42 pm

    Apparently Jesus said the exact same things, but those words, written directly in his own native Aramaic have been declared heresy and stricten from the Bible… go figure.

    Comment by unbelievable — March 22, 2006 @ 6:45 pm

  19. Details Shmeetails. Preznit NumbNuts has no time to worry over a few triffling details.

    Comment by Jesus Christ God of WAR — March 22, 2006 @ 6:48 pm

  20. #11 - …Islam is the only world religion that forbids independent thought in choosing one’s religion, and the only one that has the death penalty for leaving the faith…

    Um, sorry, but it appears you’ve never traveled throughout that part of the world. And you’ve never attended a South Baptist “revival”. Your blanket statement fails to hold true. Get back with us after you’ve had a chance to review a few of the details around the Reformation, Counter Reformation, and the Inquisition too.

    Comment by Jesus Christ God of WAR — March 22, 2006 @ 6:50 pm

  21. “…Afghanistan has now got a constitution which talks about freedom of religion and talks about women’s rights.”

    See? Georgie can say he told the truth. He said it TALKS about freedom of religion and women’s rights. He didn’t say, or he didn’t bother to find out, that the Afghan constitution didn’t say anything GOOD about those rights. Jeebus.

    I heard something on the radio this AM that this poor guy may be incompetent to stand trial. Didn’t hear why though.

    Comment by Zookeeper — March 22, 2006 @ 6:57 pm

  22. How can America justify sending its youth to this country when they support the execution of a human for exercising his freedom of choice in religion? The Afghani courts back this up, the Afghani government backs this up, does America really want to send funding to a country whose administration allows this? How can they take my hard earned tax dollars and give it to a government that supports discriminatory and racist policies? This ahs to be addressed immediately and it should not end here, all Arab countries should have to justify this.

    Raymond B
    www.voteswagon.com

    Comment by Raymond B — March 22, 2006 @ 7:02 pm

  23. Im thinking King George will have to declare War on Afghanistan….again.

    But Hey the people knew this didnt they?
    Surely the Bush Admin knew this, Right?

    This. ‘NEW” revelation likely will be used[ for propaganda ] to start War on Iran if anyone follows the confused logic of the Bush Admin.

    Comment by Hamster Brain — March 22, 2006 @ 7:03 pm

  24. #23 - Im thinking King George will have to declare War on Afghanistan….again.

    And here I thought appointing a former Shell Oil exectutive as the head of that country was a “good thing”(tm) for the Bush Cabal. Sad, but these clowns play a very poor game of global domination.

    Comment by Jesus Christ God of WAR — March 22, 2006 @ 7:11 pm

  25. The rightwingers have their shorts are in a twist because they, the religious taliban of America, are angry that a Christian is being persecuted. They have no problem with a Muslim being persecuted.
    In our culture, such punishment is abhorrent, but in the muslim culture, this is a capital crime.
    Bush&Co think they can export American democracy and religious freedom to the muslim world, because they are too stupid to educate themselves about people in the rest of the world.

    Comment by Marie — March 22, 2006 @ 7:11 pm

  26. Ohh Boy! Bush is taking us back thousands of years into Greek Empire, the Blood Cult Christians theocrats!vs the theocrats of Middl east, but wait wasn’t the Middle east the birthground of Jesus? Oh well WHo cares, its just theocrats. Whoa.
    Just a Sec.Hmmm.
    Hey!
    We dont need no stinking laws, we just need more Wacko religious fundies to kill each other off!
    Then perhaps Pinky the meek will inherit the Earth!!
    Yes a Plan! Pinky! Listen!
    We will take over the World by doing nothing
    While the Commies, Mullahs and the Falwellian Wackos do our Work!

    Comment by The Brain — March 22, 2006 @ 7:14 pm

  27. Maybe if we get a theocrarcy we can get rid of Scientology…then again, maybe not.

    Comment by lynn — March 22, 2006 @ 7:15 pm

  28. Islam is the only world religion that forbids independent thought in choosing one’s religion, and the only one that has the death penalty for leaving the faith.
    Food for thought…
    Comment by Annetta in Oakland — March 22, 2006 @ 6:28 pm

    This is not true. The Bible also prescribes the death penalty for idolaters:

    Deut 13:6 “If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,

    13:7 - of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end),

    13:8 - you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.

    13:9 - “But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

    13:10 - “So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

    Islamic countries derive their laws from the Quran -much like Christian fundamentalists would have it in the US with the Bible. The fundamental teachings of Islam come from the Old Testament, which Islam shares with Christianity, and many read it literally.

    There is no freedom of religion in Christianity either. It took many centuries of social changes and the invention of the separation of church and state to free societies from the clutched of organised religion.

    Comment by Gregor Samsa — March 22, 2006 @ 7:20 pm

  29. Freedom has been, and always will be a lose/lose situation. In this instance, while one side calls for freedom of religion, another side is calling for the freedom to make their own laws against that.

    If everyone had the freedom to do whatever they wanted, it would be complete chaos. There will always be rules and regulations, some more absurd than others. But you will never find a time when EVERYONE is happy. And for that, there will ALWAYS be conflict because I don’t believe the ability is in every human mind to compromise.

    Freedom of speech is a HUGE issue here in the US as you must all know. Same with flag burning. And now we have a country where some people want the freedom to choose their laws as they see fit, while others seek the freedom of chosing their own religion. I have a feeling this situation will worsen.

    Comment by MagnumDB — March 22, 2006 @ 7:27 pm

  30. Of course these things are censored. GWB can’t handle any criticism. Or, judging by past townhall’s, dissenting T-shirts either. W might get so agitated that his cheat box could fall off.

    www.lcoliberal.blogspot.com
    Most ridiculous story of the day: Right now on LCL

    Comment by LC Liberal — March 22, 2006 @ 7:33 pm

  31. Bush does not even know where Afghanistan is located let alone what its constitution says! George is a certified dunce on prozac who uses viagra to get high > lol.

    Comment by Jay Randal — March 22, 2006 @ 7:45 pm

  32. Here is one of my prize snags. Hope you can read it all, it’s about 11 pages. The part I love is about The President and Jim Wallis. Enjoy. http://www.nytimes.com/ 2004/ 10/ 17/ magazine/ 17BUSH.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=890a96189e162076&ex=1255665600&partner=rssuserland

    Comment by the fly-man — March 22, 2006 @ 7:46 pm

  33. Pres Bush finds himself in a very interesting quandary: The puppet government of Afghanistan, which he touted as a shining example of democracy, made it illegal to practice the basic universal value of freedom of religion.

    Afghanistan is Pres Bush’s creation. What to do? Invade the country, impose “regime change”, and tacitly admit a mistake? Use diplomacy to solve a problem, acknowledging there is no need to use military force to “liberate” a people from religious, political tyranny? Or simply do nothing and brace for the fallout with his base?

    Aaaahh, the predicaments of empire and those pesky barbarians at the gates…

    Comment by Gregor Samsa — March 22, 2006 @ 7:57 pm

  34. This is the second time we’ve helped Afghanistan blow itself up, made a lot of promises and then buggered off.

    US reconstruction funding for Afghanistan is miniscule. Most of the place has reverted to Taliban and warlord rule. And even their “new, democratic” institutions are Bizarro-world parodies of themselves.

    Poor Hamid Karzai wishes he were back at Unocal, cashing a paycheck and negotiating that pipeline deal with the Taliban. Oh, but that was long ago in the glory days of 2001, when the Taliban was still on the US payroll.

    Sigh. He wanted to be the President of Afghanistan. But he’s barely the Mayor of Kabul.

    Comment by RunningDogLackey — March 22, 2006 @ 8:06 pm

  35. Gregor there are news reports about a way out, this is one,

    Christian Convert in Afghanistan Could be Unfit to Stand Trial

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,188721,00.html

    and the revealant paragraph;

    KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor said Wednesday.

    But prosecutor Sarinwal Zamari said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

    “We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn’t talk like a normal person,” he said.

    Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to President Hamid Karzai, said Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

    “Doctors must examine him,” he said. “If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped.”

    So if he was crasy enough to convert he is not responsible for his actions?

    Comment by Clif — March 22, 2006 @ 8:21 pm

  36. So if he was crasy enough to convert he is not responsible for his actions?
    Comment by Clif — March 22, 2006 @ 8:21 pm

    Thanks Clif, I read that news earlier here. I think it adds an interesting twist: Is converting to Christianity a sign of mental illness? I wonder what Pres Bush’s base will think of that… hhhhmmm…

    Comment by Gregor Samsa — March 22, 2006 @ 8:39 pm

  37. marie 25 - “The rightwingers have their shorts are in a twist because they, the religious taliban of America, are angry that a Christian is being persecuted. They have no problem with a Muslim being persecuted.”

    i wonder (not) how those rightwingers feel about the persecution and executions of homosexuals in iraq and afghanistan…
    http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2006/03/1726036.php
    http://uk.gay.com/headlines/9739
    (the best links i could find at this time)

    Comment by katy — March 22, 2006 @ 8:42 pm

  38. Could that be the reason we could impeach the crasy men in the white house?

    Comment by Clif — March 22, 2006 @ 8:43 pm

  39. Puhleeze- SPARE ME!!! GWB uses our constition to wipe his arse with! And now I’m supposed to believe that he considers the contents of the new Afghanistan constitution a “priority”? Yeah, riiiiight. BushCo. has spent the last five years trying to dismantle OUR constitution, with the apparent goal of doing away with it completely, if possible. They find it so… confining. Not enough “post 9/11 freedom” in it for them, I suppose. Also, their good friend Allawi, “helped” to write that constitution, and then went on to Iraq, to help them write their new constitution as well! And he recently said that Iraq is in a civil war, but Bush quickly pooh-poohed THAT notion. But he does “like” the guy. I would sure like to wash his lying mouth out with soap!

    Comment by Cyra Brown — March 22, 2006 @ 8:58 pm

  40. FREEDUMB=FREE TO BE DUMB!!!!
    PASS THIS ON.

    Comment by freedumb — March 22, 2006 @ 8:59 pm

  41. OOPS. I Meant

    FREEDUMB=DUMB TO BE FREE!!!!!

    Comment by freedumb — March 22, 2006 @ 9:00 pm

  42. Does anyone think this guy will actually be killed? I don’t think so. He’ll be let off, probably sent to the US and appear on American Idol or something…

    Comment by got censure? — March 22, 2006 @ 9:10 pm

  43. FREEDUMB=DUMB TO BE FREE!!!!!
    PASS IT ALONG.
    In the Meantime, Give POGO A HELPING HAND

    PROJECT
    ON
    GOVERNMENT
    OVERSIGHT

    Comment by freedumb — March 22, 2006 @ 9:11 pm

  44. For local Afghani news, try the Afghan news site. Some latest news there, looks like everything is going great?

    - ‘Taleban fighters’ die in clash (03/22, 22:46)

    - Afghan foreign minister loses job (03/22, 22:43)

    - President Karzai Presents His New Cabinet to the Parliament (03/22, 15:47)

    - Press Briefing by Adrian Edwards, Spokesperson for the Special Representative of the Secretary-General in Afghanistan (03/20, 18:33)

    - Afghan FM Says Osama, Zawahri And Mulla Omar All In Pakistan (03/20, 11:03)

    - Afghan Suicide Attack Misses French Convoy (03/19, 21:09)

    - Afghan Man Detained For Abandoning Islam (03/19, 21:07)

    - Taliban Kill Former Afghan Governor (03/19, 21:04)

    - Bodies Of Kidnapped Foreign Workers Found In Afghanistan (03/19, 20:59)

    - Afghan former governor shot dead (03/19, 20:52)

    - Twenty-two killed at Iran border (03/19, 20:47)

    - Inaugural Concert of Central Asian Music Delights Washington (03/19, 20:39)

    - Pakistan Cannot Live in Peace nor in War with Afghanistan (03/19, 20:22)

    - Western Warlord gives up 50 tons of weapons (03/16, 19:52)

    - Karzai shuffles Governors (03/16, 19:50)

    Comment by got censure? — March 22, 2006 @ 9:19 pm

  45. #37 katy
    Excellent point.

    Comment by Marie — March 22, 2006 @ 9:21 pm

  46. Afghan FM Says Osama, Zawahri And Mulla Omar All In Pakistan (03/20, 11:03)
    Afghan foreign minister loses job (03/22, 22:43)

    Comment by got censure? — March 22, 2006 @ 9:30 pm

  47. By the way, the Iraq Constitution establishes Islam as the State Religion, too.

    Comment by Briseadh na Faire — March 22, 2006 @ 9:41 pm

  48. I just went to visit Michelle Malkin’s site to see what kind of spin she would put on this to make Dubya look good. I had hoped to send her my 99th email pointing out her hypocrisies. And much to my surprise, I found this:
    “What do Afghan President Hamid Karzai and President Bush have to say about the monstrous possibility that Rahman may be executed for professing faith in Jesus Christ and possessing a Bible? So far, nothing.”
    Could it be she actually disapproves of her hero on this one issue?

    Comment by Lily — March 22, 2006 @ 9:47 pm

  49. Only 2 reasons why Bush even cares about Afghanistan: 1) Making sure the Opium crop gets to the drug dealers to make Heroin, and 2) another front to attack Iran from { Iran is sandwiched between Afghanistan and Iraq, so the 2nd front when Iran is attacked.}!

    Comment by Jay Randal — March 22, 2006 @ 9:50 pm

  50. Why should we expect Bush to really care about what the Afghan constitution says when he so obviously doesn’t care about our own? Or is this Afghan religious freedom story another issue that he’s going to blame the “liberal media” for?

    Comment by Mike in Arkansas — March 22, 2006 @ 10:11 pm

  51. religions have been fighting and killing each other for 4000+ years. So bush thinks he will change this. America was founded by keeping relilgions in their place. Now we are faced with internal threats from the Pat Robertson’s, who think god tells them about the ‘good’ killings. Killing for Jesus,God,or whoever is not for me.

    Comment by wisedup — March 22, 2006 @ 10:38 pm

  52. Clif I read that comment too, and that may be just what the Afghani judge does. However, there shouldn’t even be a trial. That alone is the issue and this man being declared unfit to stand trial is not an answer to the problem. This constitution is not just and it is not a constitution that will preserve the freedoms of the people. What scares me is that Iraq’s is much the same.

    Comment by LJ Abershawe — March 22, 2006 @ 10:49 pm

  53. Hmm, the President ignored people telling him the Afghanni constitution was not what he was telling the public it was, who would have guessed?

    Comment by Mark — March 22, 2006 @ 11:12 pm

  54. Hey George read a book, here is one:

    “Constitution for Dummies”

    Comment by Thomas Paine — March 22, 2006 @ 11:23 pm

  55. Jay,

    Didn’t you hear? They discovered huge reserves of oil and natural gas this month in Afghanistan. There’s an even better reason than Opium to be there - there’s the ‘opium’ of capitalism (oil) to be exploited.

    Comment by Ryan Neat — March 22, 2006 @ 11:29 pm

  56. And the oil pipeline Karshi was working on with unocal to get built.

    Comment by Clif — March 23, 2006 @ 12:43 am

  57. Just saw “V For Vendetta”. Superb! Quite a big, much-needed statement the movie makes. Many parallels and direct criticisms of our country’s government and media today. V lies within us all!

    “Remember, remember the fifth of November!”

    Comment by Neal — March 23, 2006 @ 1:11 am

  58. The President said “Let Freedom Reign”. So, we are now reaping what we sowed.

    Comment by Mash — March 23, 2006 @ 2:15 am

  59. If the fetishes of one’s religion are natural gas pipelines and oil reserves, and freedom manifests as the unimpeded exploitation of natural resources and human beings, then yes, freedom and religious diversity are supported by both the Afghani Constitution and the Bush Regime.

    Comment by SL Aronovitz — March 23, 2006 @ 4:57 am

  60. Dear God, i live in a nation full of idiot children who find themselves “enlightened” and “progressive”.

    George Bush shoulda worote the Afghan constitution differently, eh? Morons!

    Comment by Pablo — March 23, 2006 @ 6:40 am

  61. In Bob Herbert’s latest, he calls the war in Iraq “Bush’s Trillion Dollar War.” The last I’d heard we’ve spent just under a quarter of a trillion dollars and I think he’s missing the larger, more important point: People are getting killed. But I still think that this is worth a looksee.

    Comment by jurassicpork — March 23, 2006 @ 7:28 am

  62. I only ask: was it a lie, or did he simply not know?

    Bathrooms
    Rockets

    Comment by Alex — March 23, 2006 @ 7:43 am

  63. Just to veer away from ther subject a bit, “vendetta” is the only word in English that’s Sicilian.

    LOL

    Comment by ElectricBassPlayer — March 23, 2006 @ 8:10 am

  64. For liberals, one day we are supposed to get out of the middle east immediately and stop meddling. Then the next day, we need to medle more. Nobody can figure out what direction you are going in. I think the direction is purely any direction that criticizes or complains about the president. People see that and don’t like it.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 8:22 am

  65. religions have been fighting and killing each other for 4000+ years. So bush thinks he will change this. America was founded by keeping relilgions in their place. Now we are faced with internal threats from the Pat Robertson’s, who think god tells them about the ‘good’ killings. Killing for Jesus,God,or whoever is not for me.

    Comment by wisedup — March 22, 2006 @ 10:38 pm

    That’s precisely why I laugh when zealots declare moral superiority over all non-religious people. Makes me laugh now just thinking about it.

    Comment by unbelievable — March 23, 2006 @ 8:36 am

  66. # 64

    We are not mbeddling , we just expose the fallacy , the hypocisy of the Bush policies .
    Remember he said JC is his Hero . Right …. just in front of thr cameras.
    We should get out of Iraq , Afghanistan and let them revert tothe 6th century .Why do we want to create people in our own image.Is bush God , just a compulsive liar and megalomaniac

    Comment by Ohcrap! — March 23, 2006 @ 8:46 am

  67. #64 - “I think the direction is purely any direction that criticizes or complains about the president.”

    Wasn’t that what the right-wing did to Pres. Clinton?

    OK, now’s yout turn to tell the right-wing they’re wrong for doing that years ago.

    Double standards are a b*$ch, aren’t they?

    Comment by Democrat Soldier — March 23, 2006 @ 8:58 am

  68. Of course, now that the right wing is up in arms, President Bush is pretending this has always been a priority. It’s simply not true.

    When Bush said he “expects” that the Afghan government take steps to correct this situation that is what he means and they know it. I believe that he has knows all along and been waiting for something like this to present itself in order to “help” the Afghan government clarify it’s position on religious freedom. We shall see.

    It’s not going to be easy to change the Muslim custom and religious practice of killing off competing faiths after so many centuries of practice but I’m sure the anti-religious Left that is represented on this site will have some worthwhile thoughts how this can be accomplished. Maybe a little porno….a few homosexual TV shows….lots and lots of sensitivity classes, you know the usual.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 23, 2006 @ 9:06 am

  69. I think the direction is purely any direction that criticizes or complains about the president. People see that and don’t like it.

    Comment by Rob Turner #64

    Rob,

    Quit whining!

    What’ve Bushiva and L’il Dick done that’s not worthy of not only criticism but criminal prosecution as well?

    Prosecute, convict and then confiscate the personal wealth of these families (for their treason and thievery):

    Bush Perle
    Cheney Adelman
    Rumsfeld Franks
    Wolfowitz Tauzin
    Lay Scalia
    Skilling Bremer
    Fastow All “defense contractor” executives
    Rice Woolsey
    Bolten Kissinger
    Feith Baker
    Eagleburger All AIPAC members

    All “conservative” Republiscum and democrat house and senate members who are found to have vested interest in (making profit from) the “war on terror”…

    All Carlyle group board members…

    did i miss anybody?

    …them too!

    Comment by big papa — March 23, 2006 @ 9:12 am

  70. That’s precisely why I laugh when zealots declare moral superiority over all non-religious people. Makes me laugh now just thinking about it.

    Comment by unbelievable #65

    unbelievable,

    You mean like this HOLIER-THAN-THOU ANTI-CHRISTIAN?:

    Maybe a little porno….a few homosexual TV shows….lots and lots of sensitivity classes, you know the usual.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I #68

    Comment by big papa — March 23, 2006 @ 9:16 am

  71. Yes Clif > I forgot about the Unocal natural gas pipeline in Afghanistan, so call that reason number 3 that Bush cares about the place! Ryan Neat > I did not hear about OIL deposets being discovered in Afghanistan, but since the rest of the region has petroleum pools, then makes sense some could be in Opium poppy nation!

    Comment by Jay Randal — March 23, 2006 @ 9:16 am

  72. I-Right-I “invade their country, kill their leaders and convert the rest to Christianity.”
    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 20, 2006 @ 10:17 am

    Sorry to let facts get in the way, but we did invade their country. We did kill their leaders. And we did let them instill ISLAM as their STATE RELIGION. Read the new Iraq Constitution.

    But I guess it is ok, in your view, to have a State Religion, so long as it is Christianity. You would have outlawed the beliefs of many of our founding fathers. Washington and Jefferson, to name two, were students of the Enlightenment. Their beliefs were closer to contemporary Paganism than the mainstream Christianity of their day.

    If you are the model of what it is to be a Christian, what does that say about Christ’s teachings? Are we to convert everybody into a religion of intolerance, bigotry and hatred? Is that what it means to be a Christian?

    Christ did not wish to kill nor incarcerate those who did not choose to follow Him, yet you do. I see no congruence between the message in your posts and the message of The Sermon on the Mount.

    You might want to think about the image of Christ you are projecting.

    Comment by Briseadh na Faire — March 23, 2006 @ 9:23 am

  73. Islam is the only world religion that forbids independent thought in choosing one’s religion, and the only one that has the death penalty for leaving the faith.

    Food for thought…

    Comment by Annetta in Oakland

    Christianity was once this way… hopefully seperation of church and state will one day help Islam as well.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 9:27 am

  74. For liberals, one day we are supposed to get out of the middle east immediately and stop meddling. Then the next day, we need to medle more. Nobody can figure out what direction you are going in. I think the direction is purely any direction that criticizes or complains about the president. People see that and don’t like it.

    Comment by Rob Turner

    You are right.. most Americans are idiots and do not like debate, thinking, figuring things out, oohhh the brain pain!

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 9:39 am

  75. Left that is represented on this site will have some worthwhile thoughts how this can be accomplished. Maybe a little porno….a few homosexual TV shows….lots and lots of sensitivity classes, you know the usual.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I

    Seperation of church and state and maybe a few dozen episodes of South Park playing on national TV everyday… that should do it.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 9:41 am

  76. Islam is the only world religion that forbids independent thought in choosing one’s religion, and the only one that has the death penalty for leaving the faith.

    Food for thought… Comment by Annetta in Oakland

    Christianity was once this way… hopefully seperation of church and state will one day help Islam as well.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson #73

    Don’t mean to horn in on your discussion Gerald but…

    …Christianity is STILL that way…

    …REMEMBER-according to scripture- in the Christian faith NOT accepting JC as one’s personal savior IS a death sentence…

    Comment by big papa — March 23, 2006 @ 10:00 am

  77. You might want to think about the image of Christ you are projecting.

    Comment by Briseadh na Faire

    Why should you care? And why should I be concerned about the immortal souls of self confessed Walking Dead Losers? I’m not here to save your ass I’m here to kick it. It’s always amusing when the anti-Christian fundy-atheist Left suddenly is concerned about the behavior of Christians. I’m not saying you’re wrong I’m just saying your a hypocrite.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 23, 2006 @ 10:04 am

  78. There are more problematic cases in Afghanistan. See http://dearkitty.modblog.com/ ?show=blogview&blog_id=814897

    Comment by dearkitty — March 23, 2006 @ 10:20 am

  79. #74:

    Debate is fine, but when you don’t give any solutions, just complaints and criticisms that is weak. I see very little ideas from liberals on solving the situation in Iraq, other than cut and run.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 10:23 am

  80. I saw a very interesting Op-Ed in this mornings SF Chronicle. It was by Pat Buchanan. Yea, He’s a wack job alot of the times, but sometimes he put’s out a libertarian thread, that resonates with some of us liberals. Today’s was about this thread. Religions ordering the deaths of apostates. It’s really very good. It gives a historical perspective that this kind of punishment has been meted out through the ages from may religions including Christianity.

    Please check out Punishing Apostasy.

    Granted, we americans probably have gone a good, hmm 50 years without killing someone for conversion. But the whole notion that this is just something that only Islam does kind of flies out the window.

    Me - I think anyone should be free to choose to worship, or not, whom or whatever they please at any point in their lives. So no, I don’t agree with what they are doing to that poor sap in Afganistan.

    Uhhhh righties who are posting lunatic stuff. Why does a thread that has nothing to do with liberals here in America make you want to post smears about liberals? What is it about your own lack of self confidence and security that makes you want to write crap about people who you obviously know nothing about?

    for example, i-righti’s been on a tear lately trying to link us to god knows everything horrible under the sun. take your meds more regularly dude. Rob Turner - you don’t have a clue what we really think. You seem to be spouting crap you hear from Oxycotin Limbaugh or Phaux Pnews about us. Hint fool -go over to Media Matters and you may, just may get a better idea.

    Christ, dont you bushies have a spouse or children or pets to abuse? Leave us out of your dementia.

    Comment by kindness — March 23, 2006 @ 10:45 am

  81. So Bush and the neocons invade Iraq with our troops (after arming Saddam back in the 1980s) and then “the liberals” are supposed to clean up the mess?

    Typical right winger; I’ll make crap all over the floor, someone else will come in and clean it up.

    Comment by Preznit Pinhead — March 23, 2006 @ 10:48 am

  82. OK I know I’m gonna get crap about saying we’ve killed people for other religions here in the states without backing it up.

    Do you know how many Mormans were killed because of their religion? No one does. They didn’t keep records about it. Why do you think the mormans had to travel to some god forsaken wilderness to be left alone?

    Comment by kindness — March 23, 2006 @ 10:50 am

  83. […] Yet “Bush was warned by the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom — an independent government entity – that the Afghan constitution failed to protect freedom of religion.” In a November 2003 press release called “Constitution Threatens to Institutionalize ‘Taliban-lite’” the USCIRF expressed its concerns that Islam was the only legal religion in the country and it has protested the Afghani government’s prosecutions of several other individuals on account of their religion. […]

    Pingback by Muckraked » Blog Archive » The Daily Double — March 23, 2006 @ 10:59 am

  84. Don’t mean to horn in on your discussion Gerald but…

    …Christianity is STILL that way…

    …REMEMBER-according to scripture- in the Christian faith NOT accepting JC as one’s personal savior IS a death sentence…

    Comment by big papa

    From a fundamentalist point of view then sure… but America and now Eurpoe has put christianity in its place. Seperation of Church and State makes it illegal for them to try to enforce their religion on others. They keep trying to turn our laws against us to make them into taliban laws, however as long as we defend the Constitution to the death then we cannot be forced back into their taliban world view.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 11:01 am

  85. Debate is fine, but when you don’t give any solutions, just complaints and criticisms that is weak. I see very little ideas from liberals on solving the situation in Iraq, other than cut and run.

    Comment by Rob Turner

    You are a liar, Rush is a liar, Bush is a liar, everyone that you use for self brainwash are liars.

    MANY solutions have been offered by individuals such as myself and from groups such as http://www.americanprogress.org/ site/ pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=1376283

    You only say we have no ideas even though the left is all about thinking freely because if you recognize our points you will be exposed as the taliban nonthinkers that you are. I know your type personally. You make a hasty decision based on nothing more than a guess and call that REASONING and try to elevate it to the same level as science or engineering …. you mentally are a joke and trying to make yourself and others believe that you are the only ones that even try to come up with ideas are the only way you keep yourselves from seeing how stupid your own ideas are. If you forced yourself to compare (side by side) your ideas with the lefts you will look completely out matched mentally.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 11:05 am

  86. Do you know how many Mormans were killed because of their religion? No one does. They didn’t keep records about it. Why do you think the mormans had to travel to some god forsaken wilderness to be left alone?

    Comment by kindness

    They went to Utah because their “prophet” told them too. There’s still some in Missouri that never left and today they’re all over the place being nice and trying to act like Christians. They weren’t always nice though, they killed a few people as well. Everybody kills as it is in our nature.

    for example, i-righti’s been on a tear lately trying to link us to god knows everything horrible under the sun.

    Comment by kindness

    Everything putrid about this country can be traced directly to people who think like you. Treason, homosexuality, abortion and high taxes to name a few.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 23, 2006 @ 11:06 am

  87. …REMEMBER-according to scripture- in the Christian faith NOT accepting JC as one’s personal savior IS a death sentence…

    Comment by big papa

    Yer an imbecile.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 23, 2006 @ 11:08 am

  88. freedom of religion? is that why in afghan, i believe, the government, we coaxed, is taking a man who is christian, against the muslim law, to court and asking for the death penalty. NOW, where is the freedom, democracy that we are supposedly planting in the middle east.

    Comment by bs — March 23, 2006 @ 11:31 am

  89. Seek help i-righti.

    They went to Utah after their leader was killed in Illinois. First they were hounded out of upstate NY, then Ohio, Then Illinois, then they went to Ohio.

    Mind you I’m not a LDS. I do have LDS friends, and we do have some very heated discussions when it comes to god’s word. i support their being able to preach and believe what they want. i don’t share many of their beliefs though.

    I-right-i , I share almost zero of yours of late. really, get help. you’re about to explode & I wouldn’t want any of your family to be hurt by you.

    Comment by kindness — March 23, 2006 @ 11:32 am

  90. duh - utah, sorry.

    Comment by kindness — March 23, 2006 @ 11:33 am

  91. and mind you, yesterday bush didn’t say anything about it besides well we don’t condone that. obviously he didn’t use condone cuz that was to big of a word. but basically didn’t scream out about it.

    Comment by bs — March 23, 2006 @ 11:33 am

  92. 85:

    You are just a mad liberal. Even though the media is 90% liberally bent, you just don’t read about liberal ideas on Iraq. That is because all the articles are about complaints and criticisms. You pick apart every difficulty and challenge in the war but don’t offer constructive suggestions. You spend hours on polls. That is typical of liberals, who expect a leader to lead (or react) to polls. Your agenda is totally based on screaming “he lied”. Well I am seeing new articles and evidence every day that show that Bush was justified. Here is an ABC report on links between Osama and Iraq:

    http://abcnews.go.com/ International/ IraqCoverage/ story?id=1734490&page=1

    Then you have the tapes. The tapes talk about Iraq shipping WMDs out of the country and lying to inspectors and covering up. Even though the media is liberal, they will sell this news. I am curious to see the polls after people start seeing all this evidence. And when the “he lied” is shot down, I want to see how liberals get out of that one.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 11:34 am

  93. > > > > AIN’T IT THETRUTH!!!

    > > > >

    > > > > Joe Smith started the day early having set his alarm clock (MADE

    >IN

    > > JAPAN) for 6am. While his coffeepot (MADE IN CHINA) was perking, he

    >shaved

    > > with his electric razor (MADE IN HONG KONG). He put on a dress shirt

    >(MADE

    > > IN SRI LANKA), designer jeans (MADE IN SINGAPORE) , a light jacket

    >(MADE

    >IN

    > > VIET NAM) and tennis shoes (MADE IN KOREA). After cooking his

    >breakfast in

    > > his new electric skillet (MADE IN INDIA) he sat down with his

    >calculator

    > > (MADE IN MEXICO) to see how much he could spend today. After setting

    >his

    > > watch (MADE IN TAIWAN) to the radio (MADE IN INDIA) he got in his car

    >(MADE

    > > IN GERMANY) filled it with GAS from Saudi Arabia and continued his

    >search

    > > for a good paying AMERICAN JOB. At the end of yet another discouraging

    >and

    > > fruitless day checking his Computer (Made In Malaysia), Joe decided to

    >relax

    > > for a while. He put on his sandals (MADE IN BRAZIL) poured himself a

    >glass

    > > of wine (MADE IN FRANCE) and turned on his TV (MADE IN INDONESIA), and

    >then

    > > wondered why he can’t find a good paying job in AMERICA……

    > > > >

    > > > > Keep this circulating

    not on topic but…………….

    Comment by bs — March 23, 2006 @ 11:35 am

  94. Rob Turner

    Until you go here…read it…and understand it…

    http://www.americanprogress.org/ site/ pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=1376283

    You have nothing to say that is intelligent. If you do not know the points that you are arguing against then you are nothing but a liar that knows nothing, but talks alot about the nothing that he knows.

    Bush IS a liar. The neo cons ARE traitors against America… and you supporters ARE benedict arnolds that hold hands with the enemy…

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 11:41 am

  95. Your agenda is totally based on screaming “he lied”.

    Comment by Rob Turner

    No, the agenda is reasoned thought. 911 was NOT about Iraq. The neo cons were intent on attacking Iraq long before 911. 911 was about 15 Saudis and their Saudi leader along with encouragement from their Saudi religious leaders attacking and murdering thousands of Americans while they were at work or flying from one location to another.

    IF you neo cons were really worried about nukes then you would have researched who had nukes and who was the most entertwined with Saudi style religious fundementalism… Pakistan has the “MUSLIM BOMB” which is what they call their nukes. Osama ran to Pakistan from Afghanistan. Pakistan sold nuclear materials and equipment and knowhow to Lybia, Iran, and North Korea.

    Any intelligent person would have looked at these realities and came up with a plan that dealt with them given 911. Instead the neo cons ignored 911 other than a token gesture to Americans by invading Afghanistan. Instead the neo cons and Bush supporters lead America to where they had been planing to go all along…Iraq.

    You are liars. You are dishonorable. You are traitors against the enlightened reasoning that Ben Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, and all the others constructured this country from. You are benedict arnolds against Liberty by attacking Liberty loving liberals by calling them communists. You are backwards taliban religofascists that violate the seperation of church and state every chance you get and then lie to your fellow country men about our forefathers and say that they (the founding fathers) were religofascists also even though the writings by these very men contradict your lies. You sell out our country and your fellow country men to foreigners. You sign secret and dirty deals with foreign powers like the Saudi royals and the Taliban. You fight against ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL and strive to make the plight of the poor even worse. You hate the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    To me you look like the enemy. Not an American.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 11:54 am

  96. Rob Turner: Well I am seeing new articles and evidence every day that show that Bush was justified. Here is an ABC report on links between Osama and Iraq:
    Won’t wash. Bush & co. are scrambling hard to find something, anything, to link Bin Laden and Hussein, but the evidence is flimsy. A handwritten unofficial account is not very convincing.
    Where are the photo ops, the testimonies under oath, etc etc.

    Comment by Hattie — March 23, 2006 @ 11:57 am

  97. 95:

    You are scary. I am an American who supports the troops and the vision that the president has for a middle east free of Hitler-like dictators. I don’t spend my time fighting against the success of the troops and Iraq like liberals do. This war is very hard and has many challenges that we had to revise and create new strategies for. The terrorists are malicious cowards who will do anything to prevent freedom. Liberals who are defeatist and criticize and complain give the terrorists hope and comfort. The Iraqi troops are really making progress. The Iraqi congress is almost complete. The Iraqis are sacrificing everything to avoid civil war. We can’t give up now.

    96:

    Your quote: evidence is flimsy. A handwritten unofficial account is not very convincing.
    Where are the photo ops, the testimonies under oath, etc etc.

    This information is coming out every day and there is a lot more to come. I know you would only be happy with a signed credit card receipt for a WMD with signed photograph from Saddam himself, but, there is more to come. The tapes have lots of information about the coverup and shipping WMDs out of the country. People will come out of the woodwork eventually and add more and more information. It is naive to think that Saddam was an angel. He is an evil person who hid things well.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 12:20 pm

  98. troll rob turner. you are evil.

    Comment by kindness — March 23, 2006 @ 12:39 pm

  99. I think Dick Cheney has those signed receipts, or maybe Rummy, he carried the invoice in 1983. Why don’t you ask them?

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 12:48 pm

  100. 98:

    Kindness - I don’t think your username applies. However, I found your comments typical of a liberal: A criticism without any positive suggestions of why I am wrong or what a better idea or solution is.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 12:54 pm

  101. 99:

    I don’t need any more proof that Saddam was a threat to the world. I saw when he paid terrorist and their families to blow up innocent people. I saw when he invaded his neighboring country. I saw when he used chemical WMDs on his own people (mainly women and children). And I have heard the tapes. I also see where Iraq could go if we stick with the fight and show the terrorists that we don’t allow blowing up people, and killing people for converting to Christianity, and blowing up sacred mosqes. Iraq could be a place that votes on laws and arrests radicals. I could be a place where there is stability, happiness, and freedom. But we won’t get there by giving up.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 1:05 pm

  102. “Everything putrid about this country can be traced directly to people who think like you. Treason, homosexuality, abortion and high taxes to name a few. Comment by I-RIGHT-I”

    That’s Ironic coming from you - a man who advocates treason on a regular basis - because you hate the constitutional protections it gives liberals. And a man who’s clearly not opposed to massive deficit spending (a tax on our children), and who’s clearly a closeted homosexual. This all sounds like your hatred of your own traits projected on those who you fear.

    Oh, and Joseph McCarthy, Roy Cohn and J.Edgar Hoover, and Mehlman were/are a lot like you, they couldn’t blame their closeted homsexuality on liberals either without looking like hypocrites, liars and fools. Funny how that works isn’t it?

    You’re a sick, sick little loser.

    Comment by Ryan Neat — March 23, 2006 @ 1:23 pm

  103. #101, ‘threat to the world’ - who created the threat? Who armed him in the 1980s, with weaponry, chemicals and intelligence and supported him while he invaded his neighboring country, Iran? Who’s Ambassador to Iraq said this:

    April Glaspie. In the July 25 interview with President
    Saddam Hussein, she told him that “we have no opinion on …conflicts like your
    border dispute with Kuwait…I have direct instruction from the President…
    Secretary of State James Baker has directed our official spokesman to emphasize
    this instruction.”

    Saddam paid money to families of bombers against Israel, bombers who happen to think that Israel is occupying their country - that’s a direct threat to the US? The US financed the Contras: one Nicaraguan’s terrorist is Ronald Raygun’s ‘freedom fighter’. Its not like the US had a consistent approach to Palestinian/Israeli conflict - even while several Palestinian terrorists lived in Baghdad, George Bush took Iraq off the ‘nations sponsoring terror’ list. You are just parroting today’s message: ‘we’ve always been fighting Eastasia’.

    Chemical WMDs, where do you think he got the technology to build the chemical weapons? Donald Rumsfeld’s 1983 visit affirming toes between the Raygun Administration and Saddamm even while he used those weapons on the Iranians.

    ‘Killing people for Christianity’ - you mean the new Afghan Administration touted by Bush as one respecting ‘freedom of religion’.

    The history of the Middle East in the last 30 years is dominated by US incompetence, hypocrisy and mendacity. Today’s talking points about ‘good guys and bad guys’ are designed to stop you from thinking logically, Rob. Is it working?

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 1:34 pm

  104. This is a little tongue-in-cheek, but Saddam Hussein hasn’t always been a pariah in the United States at least not to the Bushes (former CIA director for Nixon and Ford) of the world

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 1:41 pm

  105. 103:

    What is logical is that we cannot give up on the Iraqis. Cutting and running would be a disaster. I think by the end of the year, things will have turned around. They are starting to now with the successful Iraqi military exercises and the successful Iraqi congress forming. Iraqi people are starting to tip off the military for finding terrorist in a sign showing that civilians want to get rid of them. No matter how the threat in Iraq got there, it is still a threat to the world. I think we should stick with the plan so that a democratic government is in control and not a terrorist government.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 1:48 pm

  106. #105, OK Rob, you’ve got something to debate. I guess I need to understand what the threat is to the world you talk about in the current Iraqi situation. What is it, is it the world that is threatened or only some of the world? Why is a civil war in Iraq different to a civil war in, say the Congo? Or Sudan?

    Looking at progress - the measure of success of the Iraqi congress will be what exactly? Who is running the death squads in Iraq? Who are the insurgents and what do they want? Why is it that a large segment (not limited to Sunnis) of the population (a) want the Americans out and (b) think attacks on Americans are justified?

    And what’s the difference between a terrorist government and a democratic government? Where does the new Hamas-led Palestinian Authority fit?

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 2:20 pm

  107. Iraqi people are starting to tip off the military for finding terrorist in a sign showing that civilians want to get rid of them. No matter how the threat in Iraq got there, it is still a threat to the world. I think we should stick with the plan so that a democratic government is in control and not a terrorist government.

    Comment by Rob Turner

    What terrorists?

    You mean the people defending their homeland from a foreign invader that killed thousands of their neighbors without any justification? The US military says most of the people they are fighting are IRAQIS not Saudis…. Iraqis defending their home land are NOT terrorists anymore than George Washinton was a terrorist. You sound like a druged up weird oh from down the rabbit hole…. where is reality for you? north east south and west of Baghdad?

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 2:48 pm

  108. I can’t answer all these questions today. First let me tell you the difference between a democratic government and a terrorist government. A democratic government votes on laws and you have to have agreement. If they say it is a law that women can drive, then they won’t be be-headed for doing so by the police. In a terrorist government, you have a guy like Saddam. He makes the laws and nobody else has any sayso. And when you break his law, you are thrown in a dungeon. You can go to court if Saddam thinks it OK. One of Saddams great court cases was when he went to court and signed the death warrents for like 150 people who thought differently from him.

    Good point about Hamas. Palestine took their independence and elected Hamas without the help and against the wishes of most democracies. They are a terrorist outfit and we will see if they change. However, to start, they lost all the financial support because they are terrorist. They are falling apart. That’s what happens.

    When you see satellite dishes poping up all over Iraq (freedom they never had), and women driving to their women-owned business, and people voting, and men signing up for the police or military when they know they could be killed, you have to ask yourself, do we want to abandon them now? The terrorist want to take all that away. They want control. The US is giving the Iraqis this control and the terrorist hate us for that.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 2:53 pm

  109. When you see satellite dishes poping up all over Iraq (freedom they never had), and women driving to their women-owned business, and people voting, and men signing up for the police or military when they know they could be killed, you have to ask yourself, do we want to abandon them now? The terrorist want to take all that away. They want control. The US is giving the Iraqis this control and the terrorist hate us for that.

    Comment by Rob Turner

    When you see golden plated streets and fountains spewing liquid happiness then the whole world will see that the neo cons can do magic! But that is your fantasy. WAKE UP. And show us through out ALL OF HISTORY that an invaded people end up loving their conquerers?

    As far as I am concerned the Iraqis can rot in their country or make it into something…that is THEIR business not ours. OUR business is 1) Making America better in every way possible and 2) Taking care of the Saudi driven religious fundamentalism that is the moral driving force behind Osama and 3) Doing EVERYTHING in our power to get WMDs out of the hands of as many people as possible.

    Can you reason your way through that? If so lets hear it. If not then you are a fool that wants everyone else to be fools with you.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 3:03 pm

  110. The history of the Middle East in the last 30 years is dominated by US incompetence, hypocrisy and mendacity.

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle

    It started with Jimmy Carter and ended with Bill Clinton. George Bush is the only President we’ve had since Tom Jefferson that’s willing to kick these militant, thieving, murdering ragheads in the ass.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 23, 2006 @ 3:05 pm

  111. When you see satellite dishes poping up all over Iraq (freedom they never had), and women driving to their women-owned business, (…)
    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 2:53 pm

    You are confusing Iraq and Afghanistan. On women’s rights:
    Historically, Iraqi women and girls have enjoyed relatively more rights than many of their counterparts in the Middle East. The Iraqi Provisional Constitution (drafted in 1970) formally guaranteed equal rights to women and other laws specifically ensured their right to vote, attend school, run for political office, and own property.(…)
    All illiterate persons between ages fifteen and forty-five were required to attend classes at local “literacy centers,” many of which were run by the GFIW. Although many conservative sectors of Iraqi society refused to allow women in their communities to go to such centers (despite potential prosecution), the literacy gap between males and females narrowed.

    Human Rights Watch: Background on Women’s Status in Iraq Prior to the Fall of the Saddam Hussein Government

    Hussein’s regime was bad enough without having to make stuff up.

    Comment by Gregor Samsa — March 23, 2006 @ 3:07 pm

  112. #108 - I think you are thinking about a dictatorship, not a terrorist government. There was supposed to be an international definition of terrorism that everyone could use to try and gain support from their neighbors in fighting. The UN tried to get a defintion put together. Unfortunately it foundered on the concept of defining what was resistance against occupation. The opponents to the UN definition: the United States and Israel - hmm. So Saddam was a dictator: a terrorist is typically opposing whatever government is in power not actually the government. This is what makes Hamas’s situation interesting and crucial. Noone questions their electoral legitimacy, but their chartered policies calling for the destruction of Israel set them apart. Are they terrorists, or are they a legitimate resistance movement? What’s the difference?

    The US Continental Congress was elected by the Colonies and they wrote a charter that called for the removal of a foreign power from their soil. They also fielded a military militia that did not conform to the unofficial conventions of warfare of the day. Were they terrorists? What’s the difference between Hamas and the US Founding Fathers at this point in Hamas’s history? Maybe the only difference at this point is that the US Founding Fathers won and got to write the history books….

    Given that 90%+ of the insurgents in Iraq today are Iraqis mostly Sunni or Baathists or both, it seems to me what you have is a civil war - Sunnis against Shia with Kurds staying out and a small Al-Qaeda contingent stirring it up.

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 3:11 pm

  113. It started with Jimmy Carter and ended with Bill Clinton. George Bush is the only President we’ve had since Tom Jefferson that’s willing to kick these militant, thieving, murdering ragheads in the ass.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I

    It started with the creation of Israel despite the lack of unamious support. The people hell bent on making it happen could not get the support of the middle east so they just said screw it and did it anyway…. it has been non stop vioence ever since.

    Comment by Gerald Gibson — March 23, 2006 @ 3:13 pm

  114. I’ve really got to get back to work. But let me just say, Gerald Gibson - try not to drink so much coffee.

    Terry the Turtle and Gregor - nice debate, but I still say that a terrorist leader like Saddam and the Taliban are oppressive, bad on human rights, especially women, and dangerous for the world. Terrorist today are nothing like the founding fathers. The founding fathers didn’t gas their own people and blow up other people that don’t agree with their politics. A democracy is the only fair way to run a country. Everybody gets a vote. There is not one person deciding all the laws and deciding who is beheaded and who lives.

    Comment by Rob Turner — March 23, 2006 @ 3:24 pm

  115. #110 - Oh there’s Adolf - been jerking off to Ann Coulter again?

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 3:41 pm

  116. #114, enjoyed your contribution too Rob. Even Saddam has his shades of grey - he arguably allowed women greater freedoms (certainly than Saudi Arabia) than any other muslim country besides Turkey and some of the SEA nations. And the American Revolution had its share of nastiness by some accounts . Oh and I was not asking you to contrast Saddam (gas user) to the USFF, but Hamas (terrorists or resistance movement?), who let off bombs because they think they are occupied by Israel, its not a simple difference in politics. What is or is not acceptable behavior for resistance movements, the USFF, the French Maquis, Hamas, the IRA, ETA - all depends on your perspective and also ‘who won’. History is written by the winners.

    Marlon Brando has a lot to say about terrorism, I think:

    The nervous townsman flicks his eyes back and forth between the invading motorcycle gang and Marlon Brando, their leader in black leather. “What are you rebelling against?”

    The screen legend scowls and revs his engine: “What do you got?”

    What distinguishes for me a terrorist from a freedom fighter is what they do when they finally have something to lose….whether its how deciding how much money to spend on milk for Belfast schools instead of how many petrolbombs you can make from the average milk cart in the case of the IRA, to a Bill of Rights for the USFF.

    Comment by TerrytheTurtle — March 23, 2006 @ 3:56 pm

  117. Isn’t it cool how we have young people fighting and dying for this Bush ally that is willing to kill gays and Christians but we won’t speak to our neighbor to the south because of Castro’s “human rights violations?”

    Comment by Robert Olive — March 23, 2006 @ 3:59 pm

  118. […] At today’s White House press briefing, Scott McClellan – parroting President Bush – claimed that Afghan constitution protected freedom of religion: McCLELLAN: Well, I think you should look at the Afghan constitution. It was a constitution that was widely praised for how forward-looking it was and the values that are enshrined in that constitution. And it’s important for the government of Afghanistan to reaffirm the bedrock principles in that constitution, one of which is freedom of religion. […]

    Pingback by Think Progress » McClellan’s Myth: “Freedom of Religion” Is A “Bedrock Principle” Of The Afghan Constitution — March 23, 2006 @ 4:49 pm

  119. […] However, Judd at Think Progress says this is not the case and that the United States Commission on International Religious Freedom repeatedly tried to warn the Bushies that the Afghan constitution amounted to “Taliban Lite.” The Bushies ignored them, until now. (Nobody could have anticipated that Afghan judges would adhere to Sharia law, even though the Afghan constitution says they can.) […]

    Pingback by The Mahablog » Misguided — March 23, 2006 @ 5:12 pm

  120. Abdul Rahman (3/23)…

    Senior Muslim clerics in Afghanistan are demanding that Abdul Rahman be executed for converting from Islam to Christianity. They warn that if he is not executed by the state they will incite the people to kill him….

    Trackback by Liberal Christian Viewpoints — March 23, 2006 @ 5:34 pm

  121. […] However, a Christian convert is being tried by courts with a risk of recieving the death penalty.� As the U.S. Commission on Internation Religious Freedom stated in 2003, the constitution “mandates that all legislation conform to the religion of Islam” with no regard to individual freedom of thought or religion.� This provides grounds for the creation of a judiciary theocracy, which is increasingly evident, as this is not the first convert to be tried. (Think Progress) […]

    Pingback by A Yankee Liberal in Texas » Blog Archive » Dirty Little Secrets… — March 23, 2006 @ 7:53 pm

  122. […] PROBLEMS ROOTED IN AFGHAN CONSTITUTION: The Rahman trial exposed the Afghan constitution as “an ambiguous document that endorses international human rights conventions but also says that no law shall contravene the principles of Islam.” In November 2003, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) warned Bush that the Afghan constitution failed to protect freedom of religion and instead institutionalized a system of “Taliban-lite.” Specifically, USCIRF said that the constitution “mandat[ed] that all legislation must conform to the religion of Islam,” creating a system that would allow for “religious orthodoxy to be officially imposed.” Despite the warnings, Bush praised the document as a “constitution which talks about freedom of religion.” The State Department similarly said “the Afghan constitution, as we understand it, also provides for freedom of religion.” Meanwhile, USCIRF has repeated its warnings that the Afghan constitution allows the “harsh, unfair, or even abusive interpretation of religious orthodoxy to be officially imposed on all Afghans.”  […]

    Pingback by News for Greens — March 24, 2006 @ 1:27 am

  123. […] Bush Ignored Concerns About Afghan Constitution, Praised It For …Think Progress, DC - Mar 22, 2006For his crime, he could be put to death. The incident, which has caused an international uproar, has its roots in the Afghan constitution. … […]

    Pingback by Global News Blog » Central Asia - Strong protest over killings lodged: Afghan ambassador summoned by … — March 24, 2006 @ 4:19 am

  124. George Bush is the only President we’ve had since Tom Jefferson that’s willing to kick these militant, thieving, murdering ragheads in the ass.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I —

    I-WRONG-I,
    Are you saying that Thomas Jefferson was “willing to kick these militant, thieving murdering ragheads (eg. Muslims)?” Up until now I’ve never heard that Muslims were regarded as a problem for late 18th and early 19th century Americans.
    As for Dumbya Bush, he is willing to send other people and other people’s children to fight Muslims; neither he nor any of his brothers or any of their collective offspring have actually been willing to fight. They are all chickenhawks like you.
    Incidentally, since you seem familiar with Thomas Jefferson, you might recall his words, “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism,” before you go on another one of your rants accusing everyone who is not a Bushevik of being a traitor and whatever other insult your filthy mind can dig up.

    Comment by Lora — March 24, 2006 @ 9:07 am

  125. I-WRONG-I,
    Are you saying that Thomas Jefferson was “willing to kick these militant, thieving murdering ragheads (eg. Muslims)?” Up until now I’ve never heard that Muslims were regarded as a problem for late 18th and early 19th century Americans.

    Comment by Lora

    One of the reasons women shouldn’t be allowed to vote is they have no real interest in subjects that are a requirement for a competent, well educated and reasonable voter. Little things like history. The problem with left wing men is that they are too much like women. Look up Jefferson’s solution to the
    Barbary Pirates. The parallels to this day to the penchant for the Muslim headchoppers to be liars thieves and murderers to the appeasing EuroWeasels is quite extraordinary. I read a book about the Barbary Pirates when I was 9 years old. It’s a guy thing, like informed voting.

    “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism,” before you go on another one of your rants accusing everyone who is not a Bushevik of being a traitor and whatever other insult your filthy mind can dig up.

    I’ll decide who the traitors are around here and what constitutes legitimate dissent. Since you think that anyone who disagrees with you is a Bushevik (unusual choice of terms for a ratbastardcommie to use) I’d have to say you are probably a traitor. Not unlike the “peace activists” our troops just saved who promptly held a new conference and called them killers, child molesters etc., etc.

    My guess is Lora you’re not smart enough to be a patriot or a traitor but you do make one hell of a good “useful idiot” for the Marxists and a fine example of a Walking Dead Loser on the Filthy Left. Please don’t breed.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 25, 2006 @ 10:04 am

  126. One of the reasons women shouldn’t be allowed to vote is they have no real interest in subjects that are a requirement for a competent, well educated and reasonable voter. Little things like history.

    Bullshit. Stop with the fucking stereotypes. In fact, you could use some history written by actual historians and not the Roman Catholics. Go read ‘A people’s History of the United States” by Howard Zinn. All 700+ pages. I did. While driving cross country. Was amazing.

    Barbary pirates? Are you serious? You read a book 30+ years ago by a guy who died 200 years ago and you think nothing has changed since then? YOU shouldn’t be voting. However, I,and all the women who post here, should. And not a damn thing you can do about it.

    It’s a guy thing, like informed voting.

    Comment by I-RIGHT-I — March 25, 2006 @ 10:04 am

    And scratching yourself in public? Please. Your Judeo-Christo-Muslim tree of patriarchal religion expects women to be barefoot, pregnant, and ignorant. You support a religion that encourages women to be stupid, and then you get pissed off that the women you meet are all stupid. You can’t have it both ways.

    You really should move your bed away from the wall if you’re going to keep getting upon that side of it…

    Comment by unbelievable — March 25, 2006 @ 9:30 pm

  127. I’ll decide who the traitors are around here and what constitutes legitimate dissent. Since you think that anyone who disagrees with you is a Bushevik (unusual choice of terms for a ratbastardcommie to use) I’d have to say you are probably a traitor.
    Comment by I-RIGHT-I

    I-WRONG-I,
    You don’t run this website nor, as far as I know, a holder of elected office; so only your bloated ego has judged you in the position to decide what is legitimate dissent. And from what I can tell from your usually misspelled rantings so far, you don’t regard any dissent as legitimate.
    I have never called for the end to private property or any other major tenet of the Communist manifesto; so you’re assuming I must be a “commie” is about as silly as your accusations that a very fair-skinned, well-educated Caucasian woman would be sympathetic to Al Qaeda and the Taliban. But then stupid Fascists don’t have much of an imaginaiton, do they?

    Comment by Lora — March 26, 2006 @ 7:37 am

  128. […] For years, the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a government entity, has warned that Afghanistan’s constitution contained “no guarantee of the right to religious freedom for all individuals.” Bush and other U.S. officials claimed otherwise, denying reality so they could promote the constitution as a diplomatic success. Clearly they haven’t learned their lesson. […]

    Pingback by Think Progress » VIDEO: Rice Falsely Spins Afghan Convert’s Release — March 26, 2006 @ 10:35 am

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