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friday, september 09, 2005

Flight 93 Memorial Outrage

Here’s another topic for discussion of the planned Flight 93 memorial in Pennsylvania, which resembles a giant Islamic red crescent.


352 comments
Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs. Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.

 

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#1 Free Man  9/9/2005 08:28PM PDT
 

Unbelievable.

 

 
#2 massachusetts republican  9/9/2005 08:29PM PDT
 

Why must A-rabs soil holy ground?

 

 
#3 rogue  9/9/2005 08:30PM PDT
 

wow.

 

 
#4 Intestinal Fortitude  9/9/2005 08:30PM PDT
 

Remember the memorial-9/11

Patriots...and this nations' foundation is the Cross.

 

 
#5 Austin Conservative  9/9/2005 08:31PM PDT
 

Unfreaking believable. Fricking dickweed leftist appeasers get their mits into everything and we let it happen like stupid sheeple.

If we just stand by and let it happen, then we deserve what we get.

 

 
#6 jimgoism  9/9/2005 08:32PM PDT
 

More multi culturism at work..

These idiots dont get it...

Muslims want you all right

Either you become a slave to islam
Or you will die ...

Period no discussions..

I dont CARE what the LEFT or the Muslims think

We will fight...
We will NOT surrender

We woul rather die than be slaves to the death cult called Islam

Give me Liberty from islam
Or give me death..

I will never be an islamic SLAVE!

 

 
#7 ProudLiberals dot com  9/9/2005 08:32PM PDT
 

Bush is a failure.

 

 
#8 Promethea  9/9/2005 08:32PM PDT
 

Charles,

You could run a contest for people betting on how long it will take to quash this outrageous "memorial."

On the earlier thread, one of the posters referred to an early American flag with a rattlesnake and the words "Don't Tread on Me." That's what I think a memorial for Flight 93 should look like from the air.

 

 
#9 imploder  9/9/2005 08:33PM PDT
 

slightly OT: Looks like the Univeristy of Colorado will investigate W.C. (water closet) for being an all around scumbag and fraud...

The faculty committee called for investigating Ward Churchill (search) on seven allegations involving plagiarism, misuse of others' work and falsification and fabrication, interim provost Susan Avery said.

'bout time...

 

 
#10 jamgarr  9/9/2005 08:33PM PDT
 

I believe that the design for this memorial was selected by means of a contest or at least from numerous alternative submissions. Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

 

 
#11 Right Wing Animator  9/9/2005 08:34PM PDT
 

#7
Aren't you up past your bed time?

Right, I said this last night and I'll say it again, this artist knows what he's doing, this is in pre-emptive response to anyone saying he might be ignorant. It is done intentionally for one reason or another, what, I'm not sure, I've seen two good theories on it though.

 

 
#12 got milk?  9/9/2005 08:35PM PDT
 

this "memorial" does not make me think of the brave soles that fought back.

Did they pick the artist from that 9/11 hate America contest?

 

 
#13 jamgarr  9/9/2005 08:35PM PDT
 

#8 promethea

Excellent idea!

 

 
#14 Right Nut  9/9/2005 08:43PM PDT
 

The intelligence of trolls is amazing. Verb and noun together in a single sentence, bravo!

 

 
#15 Megan  9/9/2005 08:43PM PDT
 

Let's build the world's biggest toilet in Mecca.

 

 
#16 jonturner  9/9/2005 08:44PM PDT
 

I find this so-called memorial disgusting almost beyond words. This is nearly as offensive as a box of "Piss Christ," snuff films, and Riefenstahl's Nazi propaganda wrapped with pages torn from Maplethorpe's "work."

Somehow it's appropriate that this is called "Cresent of Embrace." Indeed, death of innocents is what occurs when one embraces the red cresent of Islam.

To the architect/designer who put this together, I offer you a hearty "go fuck yourself."

 

 
#17 Megan  9/9/2005 08:44PM PDT
 

With Korans as toilet paper, of course.

 

 
#18 Pastorius  9/9/2005 08:46PM PDT
 

Having a big red crescent as a memorial for the Flight 93 victims is akin to having a swastika at a Holocaust memorial:

http://cuanas.blogsp...

Scroll up and down. There are many emails from commenters who have sent off letters of reprimand to the architects of this disgusting memorial.

Pastorius

 

 
#19 Megan  9/9/2005 08:46PM PDT
 

Well at least it's not a cross. That would be racist-sexist-homophobic-fascist-Nazi-ri ghtwing-Republican-Islamophobia!

 

 
#20 T. Jefferson  9/9/2005 08:46PM PDT
 

9/11 Rescuers Receive Posthumous Medals

WASHINGTON - President Bush honored 442 firefighters, police officers, and rescuers who died Sept. 11, awarding posthumous Medals of Valor to their families at a White House ceremony Friday.

 

 
#21 Intestinal Fortitude  9/9/2005 08:47PM PDT
 

Wasn't this like (Sheehanism) like linked 30 something times on Malkins’ site?! This is big!

Charles and the rest have brought it to light: Bloggers have dissected the crap out of it, and now the MSM MUST react.

If they do not: the flood of emails may hurt their journalistic integrity...

 

 
#22 realwest  9/9/2005 08:47PM PDT
 

#9 Imploder - from your link: "The committee recommended dropping two other allegations, that Churchill falsely claimed to be an American Indian and that he infringed on a copyright."

WTF? This guy LIED about his ancestory to get the job as chairman of the Ethnic Studies department and they're gonna drop THAT charge? As a lawyer I assure you that what he did was what we call fraud in the inducement; he lied to get money. Period. And this one they're letting him walk on. Unfuckingbelivable. I can't comment on the infringment of a copyright, since he infringed on so many, it's hard to tell which one they're letting him skate on.
BTW - does anyone know if Leroy Ward Churchill (his full legal name according to his military records) is still getting paid by the school?

 

 
#23 Tgregg  9/9/2005 08:47PM PDT
 

What we need is an outline of a Colt 45 - something that would have saved the whole plane if it were carried by an American. Plus three or four islamofascists sucking wind through gaping holes in their body is also a good thing.

 

 
#24 mich-again  9/9/2005 08:48PM PDT
 

Is that supposed to be a giant target on the ground?

 

 
#25 techunter  9/9/2005 08:49PM PDT
 

How the hell does crap like this happen? Was it not Muslims that took over the plane that was forced down by Americans? If they don't get that Allah damned crescent off the memorial someone is going remove it for them after the memorial is erected.

 

 
#26 imploder  9/9/2005 08:51PM PDT
 

We simply cannot allow this travesty to be constructed.

 

 
#27 Pastorius  9/9/2005 08:52PM PDT
 

#11 Right wing animator,

What are the theories you have seen?

I suspect the same, but until I find out what the guys real motivations are, I am going to try to smoke him out with kindness.

I had a twenty-five minute conversation with his P.R. guy today. I will be following up via email and phone calls. I might even interview the guy.

I believe there is something more at the bottom of this, but we just don't know yet.

By the way, the PR guy told me that family members of the victims were involved in the decision to use this shameful image. He said the fact that the crescent was the symbol of Islam had entered the dialogue, but had not been deemed reason to excise it. He said they used the crescent as a pure form, whose meaning is to them an embrace. He also said that the land where the Flight 93 crashed had been a quarry and that it had had the general look of a crescent shaped bowl previously.

I kind of believe the man's assertions, but I still think they screwed up big time, and I think there are shadow motives at play.

 

 
#28 Megan  9/9/2005 08:52PM PDT
 

What other projects does this guy have? A Holocaust memorial is the shape of a swastica?

 

 
#29 realwest  9/9/2005 08:53PM PDT
 

#20 T. Jefferson - Good Lord, how did they get into the Yahoo news cycle? Someone screwed up at Yahoo New today.
Bet there isn't any other mention of this in the MSM.

 

 
#30 realwest  9/9/2005 08:55PM PDT
 

#21 Intestinal Fortitude - "...the flood of emails may hurt their journalistic integrity... "

ROTFLMAO! journalistic integrity, heh, whoo!

 

 
#31 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 08:55PM PDT
 

why not a ginormous swastika?

 

 
#32 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 08:56PM PDT
 

This is a complete outrage.

As free loving Americans, we must do everthing in our power to prevent this outrage and abomination from ever being erected on sacred soil consecrated by the blood of HEROES.

We should spread the word about this so-called monument and DEMAND that a true monmument be built upon this site.

Maybe a HUGE cross.

Like the huge cross that is along interstate 40 in Texas between Oklahoma City and Amarillo.

I can't remember the town it is in but I have seen it several times because I have made that drive a number of times over the last couple of years.

 

 
#33 quark2  9/9/2005 08:56PM PDT
 

@27 Pastorius

If you interview the architect, please update us.
I emailed him early this morning. Polite but
adamant this could not stand.

 

 
#34 Carolyn  9/9/2005 08:56PM PDT
 

Ever heard of Roundup® ?

 

 
#35 Rayra  9/9/2005 08:57PM PDT
 

#7 ProudLiberals dot com 9/9/2005 08:32PM PDT
Bush is a failure.

Hey hey! Look, everybody, the shitbird is back. Haven't seen your pathetic ass since March - did you finally find something to be proud about? Was it the false claim of Black Democrats practicing cannibalism after only 3-4 days in NOLA?
Was it the Dem Mayor and Dem Governor's utter abandonment of their own constituents out of fear that Bush would earn some Merits if they let FedGov in? Was it Nagin's abandonment of the poor in downtown because school buses weren't good enough?
Please, I'm fascinated - tell us what you have to Proud about re your pathetic Ideology.

You ran away with your curly little tail between your legs 6 months ago - now you return to spew your diarrhea across 3 large threads all over a span of 5mins - you obviously didn't read the topics or the comments preceding yours, you simply come to belch forth your rotten bile.

 

 
#36 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 08:58PM PDT
 

jamgarr

Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

yes, i believe it's Atta

 

 
#37 kifaya  9/9/2005 08:58PM PDT
 

Symbolism is so passe. Crescent. Crucifix. Tall buildings which touch the sky.
When the meaning is lost on what it is to be an American it makes no difference at all.

/cynicism

 

 
#38 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 08:58PM PDT
 

You know, this crescent is as bad as if they used a damn bullseye for the memorial.

It's is just sad that someone could even think of using this symbol to commemorate this tragedy.

 

 
#39 jonturner  9/9/2005 08:59PM PDT
 

#18 Pastorius

VERY well said! Precisely right.

A memorial is supposed to memorialize the innocent, not the perpetrators! This is a tribute to islam when it should be a warning.

 

 
#40 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 08:59PM PDT
 

Beamer is Rolling in his grave

 

 
#41 imploder  9/9/2005 09:01PM PDT
 

#32 Sam I Am

a good example of a giant cross in Texas can be found here.

The Ballinger cross is 100 feet tall, on a hill and visible for miles around. It is near San Angelo, Texas.

In deference to those who may not have been Christians, however, I think I might choose a more religion neutral symbology.

I certainly wouldn't have picked a freakin' crescent. That seems pretty dang simple to me.

 

 
#42 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:02PM PDT
 

Sm, i am

damn bullseye for the memorial.

Bullseye doesn't deserve the diss

 

 
#43 Kyriakon  9/9/2005 09:02PM PDT
 

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

 

 
#44 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:04PM PDT
 

belch forth your rotten bile

Sounds like a new revolving title to me.

Rayra, you are in rare form this evening.

Hey, have you checked your e-mails lately? I'm pretty sure there is plenty in that inbox just waiting for you. ;-)

 

 
#45 Pastorius  9/9/2005 09:04PM PDT
 

#33 Quark 2,

I'm glad people are emailing and contacting these people. And, I think it's important that we be polite. I was polite to a fault, probably, but I, also, was adamant that this can't go up.

It's strange to talk to a PR guy. You know he doesn't really have much say other than in registering your feelings and then reporting back an overall impression.

We need to make it clear to these people that rational people like ourselves will not stand for this. And, if they insist on going forward with it, in spite of our warnings, then they will have a PR calamity on their hands.

This requires that we speak to them in the language of polite rationality.

Sorry to repeat myself, but this is a battle I want us to win.

I told the guy I was a writer, and asked him if he was familiar with the blogosphere, and there was a pregnant pause before he answered yes.

We can thank Charles for that pregnant pause.

Pastorius

 

 
#46 Iron Fist  9/9/2005 09:05PM PDT
 

#7 ProudLiberals dot com,

Yeah, we should have outlawed Islam and L³iberalism, and deported you all to the same sand Hell on 12 Sept 01.

Then turned the sand to glass.

 

 
#47 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:08PM PDT
 

#27 Pastorius 9/9/2005 08:52PM PDT
I kind of believe the man's assertions, but I still think they screwed up big time, and I think there are shadow motives at play.

Just go to his Architecture site, read the LLLib crapthink buzzwords about 'sustainable design'
Paul Murdoch Architects


I posted an article listing of the Judges form the second round of design contest, lots of names to investigate. I've also looked for moonbat pronouncements from either Paul or his wife, nothing yet, but his CV reeks of Eco-Cultist. And damned near every Eco-Cultist I've ever looked into is ultimately a Socialist Hate-America Anti-Corporation nutjob.

I've personlly no doubt that the use of a Islam-representative Crescent is deliberate and is a sub-rosa 'Fuck You' to the United States.

 

 
#48 gromster  9/9/2005 09:08PM PDT
 

As I said in the last thread on this subject, I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, if the crescent shape is meant to make some kind of pro-Islam statement.

However, it's still in poor taste, and the artist and the committee who oversaw this thing should have known better.

The one thing that makes me think that it could be intentional is the fact that in the artist's depiction of it, not only is it crescent-shaped, but it's also red.

If I am recalling correctly, isn't red the color of choice for most Islamic crescent logos, on flags and such?

I know that some Islamic terror groups use green a lot, but I'm fairly sure red is their preferred color overall.

If this were a green crescent, or yellow, or blue one, it wouldn't seem as bad, but red? The color choice (in addition to the shape) is what makes it even more suspicious to me.

 

 
#49 Austin Conservative  9/9/2005 09:08PM PDT
 

#7

Bush is such a failure

How funny, dickweed. Bush is a failure when loony moonbats like yourself keep losing elections all over the country. Even in the left coast where loony moonbats voted to legalize gay marriage, thus going against the will of the people, they will find them on the losing side of the election AGAIN.

Loony moonbats like you are good at election fraud. Just look at Louisiana. If Sen. Mary Landrieu were as good at busing black people to safety as she was at busing them to the polls to vote, none of them would have died.

 

 
#50 Moonbat_One  9/9/2005 09:08PM PDT
 

It's in memory of the Muslims who died on Flight 93.

 

 
#51 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 09:09PM PDT
 

#41 imploder

Thanks for the photo. Looks very similar to the cross I was thinking about. I do know the cross I was referring to is 130+ feet tall. Besides, using a cross would certainly be like stiking a huge thumb in the eye of the Islamofascists.

#42 atlasshrugged

I meant no offense. I just meant that this crescent is as bad as using a bulls eye (like the airplane hit a target in the center). And using a bullseye would be completely demeaning.

 

 
#52 Ak oilfield worker  9/9/2005 09:10PM PDT
 

#43 Kyriakon

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

1. Makes my blood boil in anger over the outrage all over again.

2. Hopefully motivates more people to email and contact the people responsible for this outrage.

I hope Charles keeps this alive until the design is changed.

 

 
#53 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:10PM PDT
 

The list of judges is near the end of last night's topic.
The first ~100 posts contain a flurry of links, articles and contact info.

 

 
#54 liberality  9/9/2005 09:11PM PDT
 

Live up the tempest in a teacup about this while you still can. The statute of limitations on using 9/11 for your purposes is about up.

9/11 was a very conservative disaster. It gave war-mongers a defined enemy (which you still managed to fuck up, but whatever, all those A-rabs look the same anyway). It was an epic disaster that rallied the country around Republicans.

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

 

 
#55 stuiec  9/9/2005 09:12PM PDT
 

If you really want to have this design changed, I suggest the following. Start a campaign to PRAISE the design as an eternal reminder of what the real imprint of Islam has been on the USA: to wit, terrorism and death.

Once the MSM gets a whiff that people on the Right see the memorial as a desirable anti-Islamic statement, there'll be a mad rush to change it. Guaranteed.

 

 
#56 gromster  9/9/2005 09:12PM PDT
 

#7 "Bush is a failure", says "ProudLiberals dot com"

At committing perjury and getting oral sex from people like Monica Lewinksy, absolutely!

It's also great that unlike Clinton, Bush takes terrorism *seriously* and does something meaningful about it.

And for all that, I am grateful.

 

 
#57 Iron Fist  9/9/2005 09:12PM PDT
 

#43 Kyriakon,

Until they change it we should scream at the top of our lungs. Like Atlas said, how is this different than a big, red swastika? If you are going to go this far, I figure we should have a Nazi flag, Japanese Rising Sun, NVA, NorK, and most definately a USSR hammer and sickle flag flying.

Of course, we beat those enemies as well.

All enemies, foreign and domestic. Those were the words. I never served, but I took the oath.

 

 
#58 Charles  9/9/2005 09:13PM PDT
 

Oh brother. That one might just be front-page material.

 

 
#59 Photios  9/9/2005 09:13PM PDT
 

Liberal jackasses at work again. Another outrage to be ignored by our Fifth Column Fourth Estate.

Slugger O'Toole has a great column. Ill Wind may not blow to the Whitehouse.

Newton Emerson is on great form in the Irish Times today. Since it deserves a much wider play on the Internet. I have permission from him to republish it on the net. It's a rhetorical gem.

By Newton Emerson

As the full horror of Hurricane Katrina sinks in, thousands of desperate columnists are asking if this is the end of George Bush's presidency. The answer is almost certainly yes, provided that every copy of the US Constitution was destroyed in the storm. Otherwise President Bush will remain in office until noon on January 20th, 2009, as required by the 20th Amendment, after which he is barred from seeking a third term anyway under the 22nd Amendment.

As the full horror of this sinks in, thousands of desperate columnists are asking if the entire political agenda of George Bush's second term will not still be damaged in some terribly satisfying way.

The answer is almost certainly yes, provided that the entire political agenda of George Bush's second term consists of repealing the 22nd Amendment. Otherwise, with a clear Republican majority in both Houses of Congress, he can carry on doing pretty much whatever he likes.

The whole column runs like this and is very good.

+Photi

 

 
#60 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:16PM PDT
 

kyriakon

What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?


yes, quite right, let's just all submit to dhimmitude, eh?

unless

you mean we are preaching to the converted here at LGF and in the blogosphere and the clock is ticking so we all need to contribute to purchasing a half hour of primetime on CNN or any of the other alphabets and have CHARLES produce a daily half hour news segment on what is really happening in America and across the globe and wake the American people the fuck up

if that is what you meant, I quite agree

 

 
#61 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:16PM PDT
 

#43 Kyriakon 9/9/2005 09:02PM PDT
What does a second thread on this topic accomplish?

How can you even ask that question on the anniversary weekend of the attacks. It's a very important matter, with active inquiries / research under way. It will be a large public story in the coming weeks as news of this horrible design's selection spreads across the land and outrage / pressure mounts.

 

 
#62 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:16PM PDT
 

54 liberality

You are a complete f*cking idiot.

You do not get it do you.

9/11 killed democrats, republicans, independants alike.

Katrina didn't bother to check to see who lived where, she rained her fury down equally on the poor, middle class and rich neighborhoods a like. We aren't seeing the pictures of the destruction in the rich neighborhoods around the lake because it doesn't suit the MSM's agenda.

Pull your head out of your a&& and take a good look around. People from all walks of life have suffered great losses, losses of all they had including family members.

The poor were not victimized by the storm but the incompetence of their leaders, the Mayor and Governor, who failed to get them safely out of the city when they had the means to do so. They also failed to provide for them afterwards by denying the Red Cross entrance into the city for several days.

Please crawl back under your rock.

 

 
#63 gromster  9/9/2005 09:17PM PDT
 

#54

I wasn't aware that natural disasters and terrorist attacks could be classified as "liberal" or "Republican."

Seems to me that conservatives / Republicans are the ones who have been doing things to aid Katrina victims while mostly Democrats sit about in t.v. interviews politicizing the situation and using it to bash Bush.

 

 
#64 Ann  9/9/2005 09:18PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

Intentional murder versus a natural occurance.

You disgust me.

 

 
#65 quark2  9/9/2005 09:18PM PDT
 

@54 liberality

here is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill.

G-d your self hatred is sickening.

 

 
#66 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:19PM PDT
 

#58 Charles

Oh brother. That one might just be front-page material.

Which one Charles?

 

 
#67 Megan  9/9/2005 09:19PM PDT
 

This is an older story, I think it was on LGF a while back. Remember the desecration of a memorial to British soldiers in France? Anti-British and anti-American slogans were spray painted on the grave, along with a swastica. Well now anti-Americans won't even need to do any work to desecrate the 9/11 memorial, it's being done for them by the architect!

 

 
#68 stuiec  9/9/2005 09:20PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

A disaster for the liberals, certainly. Right now, one political party seems a lot more focused than the other on squuezing political advantage out of the misery of poor Black folks rather than giving them a helping hand. I think a lot of Americans will ask themselves why the Democrats couldn't put off the politicking until after the last survivor was clean and dry and the last dead victim was buried.

By the way, wonderful example of how liberals are so race-obsessed, they could never survive in a color-blind world. "Swarthy other" -- laugh-out-loud funny!

 

 
#69 jonturner  9/9/2005 09:21PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

GAZE

 

 
#70 imploder  9/9/2005 09:21PM PDT
 

#54 Liberalty

Katrina is a liberal disaster.

You can say that again...

Your brain-dead liberal mayor and catatonic liberal governor did alot to jack that whole situation up way past beyond repair.

Amen to that.

 

 
#71 savage_nation  9/9/2005 09:21PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

You are stark staring nuts! What the fuck are you damn talking about? Your liberal buddies in government (Blanco and Nagin) are FUCKING MURDERERS by proxy.

Thousands dead and dying down there! No busses! No evacuation plan followed! Cops looting! Dems on the ass covering program! Vegas holiday proposals! More insane shit I've seen in one week than I have seen in my 44 years on this planet.

I want to see you and your fuckstick buttbuddies up to your necks in that toxic waste dump down there, the sooner the better.

 

 
#72 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 09:22PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

Say what?

It was Clinton, his witch (Hillary) and their witch (Goelick) that didn't pursue Osama after the first attack on the World Trade Centers.

They felt it was only a criminal case and should be pursued as such. That and all subsiquent terror attacks were addressed by Clinton as criminal cases and not the Acts of War that they were/are. If you doubt, check the records. Osama declared war on the US (while Clinton was POTUS) and Osama has continually reiterated his declaration of war during Clinton's and now Bush's presidency.

So remember that Osama was waging war against the US before Dubya became POTUS and before we invaded and liberated Afghanistan and Iraq.

We had several chances to apprehend Osama or kill him outright but every time, Slick Willy couldn't do it (I guess he had to check the polls before he made a decision).

As for Katrina, again the Democrats can only try to fix blame on Bush and Republicans rather than come up with a solution.

 

 
#73 Iron Fist  9/9/2005 09:22PM PDT
 

#54 Liberace,

I realize that you have difficulty remembering to breathe, but you might have noticed that the poor and downtrodden in States with Republican Governors fared much better that those in the State with the Democrat Governor.

And most people realize that disaster planning starts at the local level. The Mayor of New Orelans was a Democrat.

As was the Governor of Louisiana.

Oops.

 

 
#74 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:23PM PDT
 

gromster

If this were a green crescent, or yellow, or blue one, it wouldn't seem as bad, but red? The color choice (in addition to the shape) is what makes it even more suspicious to me.

i gotta tell ya grom, if it was chartruese that goddamn crescent would still kill me

funny that way, i am

REPLICATE THE 9/11 MEDAL OF HONOR

(it's on my site under the NEVER FORGET typelist but I refuse to plug my blog - I am fed up with blogplugging)
;-D

or check out the front page of today's NY Post

 

 
#75 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:24PM PDT
 

#45 Pastorius 9/9/2005 09:04PM PDT
...I told the guy I was a writer, and asked him if he was familiar with the blogosphere, and there was a pregnant pause before he answered yes.

We can thank Charles for that pregnant pause.

Pastorius

The 'Oh Shit' Pause.
I've held back, while I dig for more solid indication of their personal politics.

I'm also looking for a non-horrific way to contact all the involved familes, to see if they are aware what 8 of their number have done 'in their name.'

I'm wondering if Beamer is still active in that scene, but hesitate to even approach her with this.

In the meantime, mapping out the Governmental tree on this whole clusterfuck, looking for pressure points.

 

 
#76 Megan  9/9/2005 09:24PM PDT
 

Look's like Liberality's nurse gave him the wrong meds.

 

 
#77 hous bin pharteen  9/9/2005 09:24PM PDT
 

#28 Megan

"What other projects does this guy have? A Holocaust memorial is the shape of a swastica?"


Either that or an eternal flaming cross at the Martin Luther King Museum.

Im sure that would not be insensative either.

 

 
#78 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:25PM PDT
 

KATRINA IS A RACIST!

 

 
#79 gromster  9/9/2005 09:25PM PDT
 

#62 Mafia Princess

We aren't seeing the pictures of the destruction in the rich neighborhoods around the lake because it doesn't suit the MSM's agenda.

You are absolutley correct. On a related note...

My sister (who is white, poor, from the New Orleans area, and had to leave NOLA because of Katrina) told me the other day she's noticed the main stream media (as well as folks such as Jesse Jackson) keep focusing on the predominantly black areas of New Orleans (which is on the East Bank).

My sister lived on the West Bank, which has received almost no news coverage.

She pointed out that predominantly "white" areas (I think she mentioned Jefferson parish and Slidell, and some other area - Plaquerman's Parish [spelling?]- that was very hard hit) have received next to no coverage.

My sister asked if there's racism at work, why is the MSM covering blacks more so than whites?

Plenty of white people in parts of Mississippi and Alabama were affected by Katrina too, MSM doesn't hardly discuss them either.

 

 
#80 Iron Fist  9/9/2005 09:25PM PDT
 

#63 gromster,

Case in point, while Liandreiu was getting her face on TV, Vitter was getting his hands dirty trying to help his constituants.

Of course, that is the basic difference between Democrats and Republicans, isn't it? One side likes to preen, while the other side takes responsibility.

 

 
#81 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:25PM PDT
 

KATRINA IS A RADICAL ISLAMIST!

 

 
#82 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:25PM PDT
 

KATRINA IS A REPUG!

 

 
#83 Ak oilfield worker  9/9/2005 09:26PM PDT
 

#54 liberality 9/9/2005 09:11PM PDT

I am stunned to silence by your stupidity and ignorance.
I concurr with Charles, Oh Brother.

 

 
#84 Earth2moonbat  9/9/2005 09:26PM PDT
 

78 atlasshrugged

KATRINA IS A RACIST!

Er.....Y'mean.....KKKatrina?

 

 
#85 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:27PM PDT
 

sure would have been different if Guiliani was a New Orleanian

 

 
#86 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 09:27PM PDT
 

#76 Megan

So that it explains it...

Silly me.

 

 
#87 Austin Conservative  9/9/2005 09:27PM PDT
 

#54 Liberal Dickweed
It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Why would any American who can read rally around a socialist democrat who cares about nothing but getting power any way at any cost.

Saying Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain used to work, but not anymore. You fuckers are spotted a mile away and your lies and bullshit are exposed seconds after you spout them.

You are dreaming dickweed.

 

 
#88 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:28PM PDT
 

are the red lines running off the crescent supposed to be Jewish blood, Christian blood, or non-radical islamic blood

 

 
#89 imploder  9/9/2005 09:28PM PDT
 

#84 E2M

Er.....Y'mean.....KKKatrina?

you mean "KKKarlrina"?

 

 
#90 realwest  9/9/2005 09:28PM PDT
 

#58 Charles - I'm sorry, it's late here in NYC but which comment were you referring to? C'mon, please help and older, er, more mature, guy out here.

 

 
#91 Banagor  9/9/2005 09:28PM PDT
 

Well, I'm going to simply repost what I wrote here early last night about this outrage, and then posted on my site:

The Cresecent Outrage:


I find it offensive that it is a crescent.

It may not be a conspiracy, it may not be done on purpose (though I doubt it if CAIR is behind this - what the hell, are we that stupid?), but I still find it offensive.

I find it just as offensive as Muslims find it offensive that President Bush used the term “Crusade”. I find it offensive in that same light.

I am not going to be “better than them”. I refuse to use our heroes and martyrs as objects of appeasement towards the enemy.

I find it offensive that our side wants to placate the other side by not using the term “Crusade” and by building bridges to mosques when Christians and Jews are persecuted by law on the other side and as part of their openly stated goal. I find it offensive that CAIR is even allowed to exist in this country as a legal entity when any non-Muslim in the part of the world which they represent is routinely oppressed, tortured, and killed.

I find it offensive that we would allow, no matter how unintentional, the symbol of Bin Laden and his fetid cohorts in crime to grace the graves of those who died protecting this country against their crimes.

I find it just as offensive as if we built a Swastika on the funeral grounds of the victims of the Holocaust to show that we don't blame all Germans.

I find it insensitive, unjustified, immoral, stupid, faithless, bigoted, moronic, wrong and offensive beyond words that we even would consider building that memorial in such a shape after it has been pointed out what that symbol stands for.

I find it even more offensive that the “artists” would have had no concept of the meaning of such a symbol; or if they did, willingly created that model anyway.

I find it offensive and tasteless, and I will not stand for it, nor should any American. Did we build a memorial on the USS Arizona in the shape of a Rising Sun? What idiot would suggest that we do? What naive fool would have suggested that back then? Who would have put up with such a torridly stupid display?

Who should put up with it today?

I find it offensive, and I am outraged - conspiracy or not - because it is wrong and it insults everything those people died for.

Those people died to protect us from having that symbol imposed upon this land - that land where they now rest. And now, because of our stupidity and our degenerate and dysfunctional psyches about our own culpability in the crimes of the history of the world, we would impose that symbol there to commemorate their sacrifice and say that they were wrong - intentional or not?

How utterly blind and stupid; how wrong; how viciously naive; how degenerate; how immoral and evil can we be to create a memorial in that shape so that Bin Laden can finally have just even 1/100th part of his dream fulfilled?

I am outraged and I am furious, and anyone who doesn't see this as a victory for Bin Laden, CAIR, and all the other apologists out there, is a God Damned Fucking Moron.

And you can quote me on that.

 

 
#92 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:29PM PDT
 

#60 atlasshrugged

Tell it Atlas. If I had the money that Memri piece would be on before or after the Flight 93 moving on Sunday. Now wouldn't that cause a sheet storm in the world press.

I thought the other one of the memorials "Disturbed Harmony" layout was better. I dont like the title but the rest looked pretty good.

 

 
#93 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 09:29PM PDT
 

#88 atlasshrugged

We can only hope that it is swine blood.

 

 
#94 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:30PM PDT
 

#48 gromster 9/9/2005 09:08PM PDT
If this were a green crescent, or yellow, or blue one, it wouldn't seem as bad, but red? The color choice (in addition to the shape) is what makes it even more suspicious to me.

Helloo. A Green Crescent is even worse. And unless these are a varietal of Red Maple that stays Red all year round, they WILL be Green ~6mos of the year.

The shape, the colors, the location of the structures / Tower at the apex? locus? where the Islamic Star usually resides - it ALL stinks and it is far too many "coincidences" to have been accidental.

And someone go find a prior existence of a crescent being a symbol for / meaning 'Embrace'.
It must be some post-modernist crapthink, because the Crescent Moon has been a fertility worship symbol since the dawn of recorded history.

 

 
#95 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:30PM PDT
 

54 liberality

here is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger

aha, size issues eh?

poor boy

there are operations for such thngs

 

 
#96 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:30PM PDT
 

#10 jamgarr

I dont care if the archiacrew has an unsavory agenda. I care what the DAMN thing looks like and will look like for next couple million thousand years!

 

 
#97 mjk  9/9/2005 09:30PM PDT
 

Final thought for me:
I find it amusing that lots of people say "Bush is a failure."
I'm going with, nope, Bush is a collosal success. Yes, he's not the brightest thing on two feet. Yes, all of his policies aren't so smart. Yes, he can be inarticulate and slightly bumbling.
BUT since Sept 11, he's crushed the Taliban, brought down a dictator, caused the Syrians to leave Lebanon, made Mubarak hold elections (false they may be), made the UN at least pretend to be accountable. For better or for worse, he supported Ariel Sharon's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza. Hurricane Katrina shows the holes in FEMA and the Red Cross, to be sure. But I would argue that those holes would have been there no matter who was President.
It's incredibly specious and ignorant reasoning to blame President Bush for EVERYTHING, even if it's "fashionable" to do so.
Yes, President Bush is not perfect, but at the very least, he is aware and willing to fight for the United States. The isolationist policies of Clinton and the Democrats will only bite us in the ass. The US is not existing in a vaccuum. And it's rather remarkable that President Bush of all people is completely aware of this.

 

 
#98 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:32PM PDT
 

79 gromster

I have family in Jefferson Parish too, the west bank of the river. I've been relying on a blog for that area to get news.

Most folks are posturing in NO because it is a big city everyone knows, but you are correct, they only care about the "poor black folks" an not the rest of the city, the suburbs that are wiped out. Guess it doesn't make good copy.

Hope your family are doing okay. I'll remember them in my prayers.

 

 
#99 gromster  9/9/2005 09:32PM PDT
 

#74 atlastshrugged
i gotta tell ya grom, if it was chartruese that goddamn crescent would still kill me

I hear you; I understand.

 

 
#100 savage_nation  9/9/2005 09:32PM PDT
 

#91 Banagor

Your post says so much. Thank you :)

 

 
#101 kifaya  9/9/2005 09:32PM PDT
 

an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Sounds like pipe dreams to me. Keep on a'smokin. Unless, by "rally around" you mean surrounding them at the polling stations and voting them out of office by resounding margins in order to secure their murderous ideology as a thing of the past.

 

 
#102 Sam I Am  9/9/2005 09:32PM PDT
 

This just in...

Bob Denver aka Gilligan has died.

Bush is being blamed because, you know, Bush never tried to rescue them from that island.

Bush just left them there to die...

/sarcasm off

 

 
#103 Megan  9/9/2005 09:33PM PDT
 

Here's what my #67 was about.link

Slogans reading "Death to Yankees" and "Rosbeefs (Brits) go home" were painted on the central memorial in Etaples, near the Channel port of Boulogne in northern France.


The "Death to Yankees" was written right under the swastica. How lovely, I bet it was an inspiration for the "artist" who designed this memorial.

 

 
#104 Carolyn  9/9/2005 09:34PM PDT
 

I like this addition to the design.

 

 
#105 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:35PM PDT
 

#91 Banagor


Well said.

#102 Sam I Am


LOL... too funny!

 

 
#106 Iron Fist  9/9/2005 09:35PM PDT
 

#94 Rayra,

Yeah, what they are doing is taggin' the place. Call your Congessman and your Senators, and let them know how outraged you are. Be polite, firm, and try not to mention nuking Mecca. I know it will be hard. It'll be hard for me, too :-)

 

 
#107 zombie  9/9/2005 09:36PM PDT
 

I guess this is the appropriate time to feature my special zombietime page about the Flight 93 Memorial again. It's much improved since this morning, with a VERY convincing animated gif showing the memorial -- in a little-seen overhead view -- becoming an Islamic crescent. I also have links to animations by Rayra and hillbilly geek, and relevant contact info for the decision-makers.

If you have not seen it yet, it's definitely worth a look-see.

 

 
#108 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:36PM PDT
 

#47 Rayra

Your right first sentence on the Sustainable Designe page says it all:

We believe in the essential role of design in reforming the natural and built environments for the long term health of life on this planet.

Need not go any further.

 

 
#109 Missy The Cat  9/9/2005 09:36PM PDT
 

liberalpenis wrote:

It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

Yeah. All 13 percent.

You're a ghoul.

 

 
#110 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:36PM PDT
 

liberality

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass

But this is not a natural disaster. It is a man-made disaster.

The man-made disaster is not an inadequate or incompetent response by federal relief agencies, and it was not directly caused by Hurricane Katrina. This is where just about every newspaper and television channel has gotten the story wrong.

The man-made disaster we are now witnessing in New Orleans did not happen over four days last week. It happened over the past four decades. Hurricane Katrina merely exposed it to public view.

The man-made disaster is the welfare state.

What explains bands of thugs using a natural disaster as an excuse for an orgy of looting, armed robbery, and rape? What causes unruly mobs to storm the very buses that have arrived to evacuate them, causing the drivers to speed away, frightened for their lives? What causes people to attack the doctors trying to treat patients at the Superdome?

Why are people responding to natural destruction by causing further destruction? Why are they attacking the people who are trying to help them?
No one has really reported this story, as far as I can tell. In fact, some are already actively distorting it, blaming President Bush, for example, for failing to personally ensure that the Mayor of New Orleans had drafted an adequate evacuation plan. The worst example is an execrable piece from the Toronto Globe and Mail, by a supercilious Canadian who blames the chaos on American "individualism." But the truth is precisely the opposite: the chaos was caused by a system that was the exact opposite of individualism.

What Hurricane Katrina exposed was the psychological consequences of the welfare state. What we consider "normal" behavior in an emergency is behavior that is normal for people who have values and take the responsibility to pursue and protect them. People with values respond to a disaster by fighting against it and doing whatever it takes to overcome the difficulties they face. They don't sit around and complain that the government hasn't taken care of them. And they don't use the chaos of a disaster as an opportunity to prey on their fellow men.

READ IT ALL

 

 
#111 hous bin pharteen  9/9/2005 09:36PM PDT
 

Ever notice that these LLL have an awfull lot of schoolin, but they are still uneducated and ignorant?

I have come to understand that the LLL concept of law is that the law is what ever they think it should be at a particular time to coincide with what mood they are in.

 

 
#112 Banagor  9/9/2005 09:37PM PDT
 

#100 savage_nation,

You're very, very, welcome. I wish I hadn't had to write it, however.

 

 
#113 howyadoin  9/9/2005 09:38PM PDT
 

"you mean we are preaching to the converted here at LGF and in the blogosphere and the clock is ticking so we all need to contribute to purchasing a half hour of primetime on CNN or any of the other alphabets and have CHARLES produce a daily half hour news segment on what is really happening in America and across the globe and wake the American people the fuck up"

Ummm..., where can I send my donation? Anybody here produce a product that can buy advertising time? I like this idea...

 

 
#114 imploder  9/9/2005 09:38PM PDT
 

Hey, they just mentioned this on Fox news, a minister in Penn. is protesting the design, to paraphrase, he said that the crescent memorializes the terrorists, and they would never put up a cross of Christ or other religious symbol...

 

 
#115 abolitionist  9/9/2005 09:38PM PDT
 

Where have I seen that thing before? Oh yeah. That ARC on the end of the long metal rod Mohammed holds in his right hand wasn't purely symbolic. Note that it's about the width of a human neck. Note the sword.

Why would the symbolic ARC be red? Cause the real one bloody was.

 

 
#116 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:39PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

Good gosh al hamburger. You need to watch MEMRI piece sunshine that or crawl back under or rock.

That or are you the wolf in sheeps clothing?

 

 
#117 gromster  9/9/2005 09:39PM PDT
 

#98 Mafia Princess

Thank you, and I hope your family is doing well too. I will pray for your family as well. I hope things get back to normal in that area as soon as possible.

My sister was able to return briefly to get some pets she had left there (they're all doing fine), and she returned here to continue living with my family (we live outside of Louisiana).

I think you're right and the MSM focuses on NOLA since everyone is familiar with the Superdome, the French Quarter, Cafe du Monde, etc. Somehow Gretna and Westwego aren't as 'sexy' to the MSM, I guess.

It doesn't bother me when the MSM shows black Katrina victims, as they were affected too, but the coverage has been a bit lop-sided.

Even if not for that double standard, for the liberal bloggers and Jesse Jacksons to try and drag race into the whole thing is revolting.

 

 
#118 Dan Kauffman  9/9/2005 09:40PM PDT
 

Claims are made that the Crescent shape is feature of the landscape, it would be a long shot to believe that IF
this was not the THIRD TIME a 9/11 Memorial has had some creative editing done to it.

http://www.angelfire...

Once more
into the breach,
dear friends,
once more

 

 
#119 zombie  9/9/2005 09:41PM PDT
 

Here are direct links to all three animated gifs: each is unique and damning in a way that only visual evidence can be damning:

zombie animated memorial/crescent comparison

Rayra animated memorial/crescent comparison

hillbilly geek animated memorial/crescent comparison

I like to call them the Throbbing Memorials, in honor of the anniversay of Rathergate.

 

 
#120 kifaya  9/9/2005 09:43PM PDT
 

zombie (107)

Great job. What a horrifying image.

 

 
#121 imploder  9/9/2005 09:43PM PDT
 

Here's something else I found out by surfing:

The design selected still must get the approval of the director of the National Park Service and the Secretary of the Interior.

Here's the whole thing...

Looks like the Feds will be saying yea or nay...

 

 
#122 Rayra  9/9/2005 09:44PM PDT
 

Well Charles - Gordons are going to get quite jealous if you insist in keeping this other pet troll Liberality. This venal bilious toad has long demonstrated its utter inability to be Human and it's abiltiy to spew venom of the most "Screw'em" variety.
Just look what it's done to what should be a serious topic.
Will you PLEASE lock that ass out?

 

 
#123 Mafia Princess  9/9/2005 09:44PM PDT
 

#117 gromster

Have only heard from two family members the rest are unaccounted for.

I think the MSM needs to cover the situation with all the victims, but alas, it doesn't sell subscriptions or airtime to advertizers to be balanced in their coverage.

Hope all goes well in your newly "stuffed" household. Hope your family can get back to their homes sooner rather than later, cause I know they'll want to do just that.

Peace.

 

 
#124 quark2  9/9/2005 09:45PM PDT
 

The silver lining to this disaster is the democrap slave holders in LA have lost a good many of their 'plantation slaves'.
Many of them have been taken to parts of the United States they've never been to, and eye opener right there. They've had their slates wiped clean and given a new opportunity to start anew.
New enviroment, new homes, new jobs and new
political leaders.
NO is the biggest loser of all.
I think the liberals have had their political back broken by Katrina.
And that ain't no liberal storming!

 

 
#125 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:47PM PDT
 

104 Carolyn

Ha. That's good.

 

 
#126 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:49PM PDT
 

97 mjk

I'm going with, nope, Bush is a collosal success. Yes, he's not the brightest thing on two feet. Yes, all of his policies aren't so smart. Yes, he can be inarticulate and slightly bumbling.

why is it that everytime someone comes to Bush's defense, they always haveto qualify it.

Bush does not need a goddamn buffer. He is a great President at what can be considered arguably one of the most difficult moments in American History.

There is a Civil War at play here, but it's unclear (as opposed to the Lincoln's Civil War), there is an enemy at play here, but it's unclear - no clear nation states, no definitive target, and a duplictious international world body.

You want articulate? Hitler was articulate.
Clinton was articulate. Bush tells is like it is, black and white - and plain.

That is my idea of articulate.

Consider what this man has accomplished in the face of a Fifth Column, the enemy within.

Think about it

 

 
#127 gromster  9/9/2005 09:55PM PDT
 

#94 rayra

Ah yes, you were biting my head off the other night in the other thread about this same topic.

I see nothing wrong with wanting proof that it was intentional or designed to be pro-Islamic before saying, "Okay, it was intentional."

~Maybe it was, but at this stage, I don't know.

Otherwise, I am not better than my friend at another board who believes -without evidence- that

1.a.)George W. Bush was behind 9/11; or
b.) knew about it in advance yet did nothing to stop it

2.) that Dick Cheney was involved in a conspiracy to "nuke" Iran.

When I asked her for proof for assertion #2, she cited an article by *Lyndon LaRouche,* and LaRouche had no proof in his piece, only un-named sources and conjecture.

If I'm not going to buy unfounded conspiracy theories or unproven assertions from the left, I'm no more prone in buying them uncritically from the right :o)

 

 
#128 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 09:56PM PDT
 

The Fifth Column (for starters)
Media
This influence is Ginormous. It's the media elites, the alphabets, the LLL, Hollywood, to quote Ike - instead of the the "Military Industrial Complex", the real enemy is "the Media/Entertainment Industrial Complex".

Mainstream Media/Elites

QUALIFICATIONS:
Hollywood Vs. Government


Kofi Annan
The United Nations

Jimmy Carter

The Carter White House during the disasters of the Sandinista takeover of Nicaragua, the energy crisis and stagflation, the Iranian revolution and hostage crisis, and the invasion of Afghanistan. Not backing the Shah of Iran in 1979, our close ally in the Middle East, resulted in the take over by Radical Islamic Fundamentalist Ayatollah Khomeini which brings us to where we are today with Iran.

Time magazine columnist wrote that some of Carter's "Lone Ranger work has taken him dangerously close to the neighborhood of what we used to call treason"

Carter befriended North Korea during the Clinton administration, appeasing the communist regime and giving it cover for its nuclear weapons program

Edward Kennedy

"Senator Kennedy killed that girl the same as if he put a gun to her head and pulled the trigger" - George Killen ~ State Police Detective-Lieutenant


Senator John Kerry


The North Vietnamese general in charge of the military campaign that finally drove the U.S. out of South Vietnam in 1975 credited a group led by John Kerry with helping him achieve victory. Gen. Vo Nguyen Giap wrote that if it weren't for organizations like Kerry's Vietnam Veterans Against the War, Hanoi would have surrendered to the U.S.

Bill Clinton

In acts of official perfidy that may be unparalleled in our nation’s history, Clinton accepted bribes from Red China in the form of illegal political contributions, and in exchange made policy decisions that undermined our national security to the benefit of that hostile foreign power.
• The Red Chinese military (the so-called People’s Liberation Army, or PLA) is now able to deploy much more accurate nuclear-armed missiles pointed at the United States, in large measure because of policy decisions by President Clinton
• President Clinton signed national security waivers to allow four U.S. commercial satellites to be launched in China, despite evidence that China was exporting nuclear and missile technology to Pakistan and Iran.


"How did it come about that highly sensitive technical information was given to the Chinese? Why did the president ignore the national security experts who counseled against this deal? What damage has been done to our national security?" Goss asked.

Clinton's terror failures are too numerous and damaging to recount here but Bill Clinton was the quintessential dhimmi. He allowed AL QAEDA CELLS - INCLUDING THE 9/11 CELL to OPERATE IN THE USA ignored the World Trade Center bombings of '93, ignored the Cole, the embassy bombings and handed Israel over to the most barbaric terrorist of the late twentieth century, Yassar Arafat.

and that's just for starters...........

Clinton-era policies ignored Able Danger (Mohammed Atta et al)
Senator Robert Byrd


This ex-Klansman wasn't just a passive member of the nation's most notorious hate group. He wrote: "The Klan is needed today as never before and I am anxious to see its rebirth here in West Virginia" and "in every state in the Union." The ex-Klansman later filibustered the landmark 1964 Civil Rights Act - He also opposed the nominations of the Supreme Court's two black justices, liberal Thurgood Marshall and conservative Clarence Thomas. In fact, the ex-Klansman had the gall to accuse Justice Thomas of "injecting racism" into the Senate hearings. The ex-Klansman vowed never to fight "with a Negro by my side. Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."

Department of Education

 

 
#129 Bubble Girl  9/9/2005 09:57PM PDT
 

liberality @ 54

From your post.


Katrina is a liberal disaster.

Freudian slip in shades of Codepink.

 

 
#130 howyadoin  9/9/2005 09:57PM PDT
 

You know, I keep leaning to the thought that they really didn't see it as an Islamic crescent. The natural shape of the ground there inspires tht sort of shape. Just WHY did he pick RED maples?

What about trees that show "re-birth" by blooming crazily in the spring? Cherry trees, pear, apple? Why red? How does the color red show "healing" and "bonding"? Red is the color of alarm, alert, get the heck out of the way or you're going to be pan-caked by a very large firetruck!

Why red?

 

 
#131 will_not_back_down  9/9/2005 09:57PM PDT
 

127 gromster

Actually is doesn't matter if it wasn't intential or not. We dont want the FKN thing as the final design.

 

 
#132 Lightning_Man  9/9/2005 10:00PM PDT
 

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette has done a story on this interviewing a blogger (not Charles) who was mystified as to why this did not occur to the planners and why the families were okay with it. And throughout the article, they act like associating a red crescent with Islam is a surprise. Hello? The Islamic equivalent to the Red Cross is the Red Crescent. Geez.

 

 
#133 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:01PM PDT
 

What I want to know is why they just didn't design something more subtle to show how the LLL felt about Flight 93 crashing? How about "Thanks for murdering Barbara Olsen" spelled out in Bushes?

 

 
#134 big L  9/9/2005 10:03PM PDT
 

sons of beyatches...

 

 
#135 howyadoin  9/9/2005 10:04PM PDT
 

#132 Lightning Man

"And throughout the article, they act like associating a red crescent with Islam is a surprise. Hello? The Islamic equivalent to the Red Cross is the Red Crescent. Geez. "

I honestly think there are lots of folks who wouldn't make the connection. They're the same ones that believe it when some people say Muslims and Christians/Jews worship the same God. Imagine asking Jesus if Allah was his father.

 

 
#136 Bob's Kid  9/9/2005 10:05PM PDT
 

Actually is doesn't matter if it wasn't intential or not. We dont want the FKN thing as the final design.

Absolutely. And as far as I am concerned, nothing more needs to be said.

/can't top such eloquence no matter how hard I try

 

 
#137 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:06PM PDT
 

#130 Howyadoin

I am sure the crescent as a symbol was intentional. There are dozens of other common shapes one could choose, any decent designer would be acutely aware of the symbolism he used. The red maples turn red around the time of the anniversary of Sept 11. This isn't about healing, it is a monument to the violent nature of Islam reaching out and giving the victims of Flight 93 a fatal embrace.

It is an abomination.

 

 
#138 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 10:06PM PDT
 

howyadoin

Ummm..., where can I send my donation? Anybody here produce a product that can buy advertising time? I like this idea...

it is difficult and complicated because advertisers won't buy time on such a program

too afraid of the media/entertainment industrial complex
much the same way FOX can't sell airtme to the big boys, lots of GEICO and Christy Lane ads (one day at a tiiiiiiiiime sweet Jesus) - actually they will start running Christy again as we are coming into the holiday .season - but lets not get tangential here

FOX doesn't get the class of advertiser or share of ad dollars as say CNN, even though their numbers are so much greater and their CPMs much more effective

there is a great deal at work here.........it would almost have to be a labour of love (of freedom and our way of life and western civilization as we know it) at first and when the truth set the American people free would could move it to Pay-Per_News

 

 
#139 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  9/9/2005 10:09PM PDT
 

Really, what is "Proud Liberal dot Com" proud of?

OK, OK, we know, Bush is both an evil racist mastermind, and a stupid party boy dimwit, at the same time, Karl Rove planned 9-11 so Ariel Sharon could invade Abu Dhabi, and every time you try to fart and leave a slick in your panties, Halliburton was responsible, but what are you proud of?

Jimmy Carter and 20% inflation and 9% unemployment? Jimmy and the hostage crisis? LBJ, his "war on poverty" and the increase in the number of black children living in single parent households? The 30 million Americans who aren't here to clog our highways because they were aborted? The fact that the Boy Scouts are public enemy number one?


Just curious.

 

 
#140 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 10:10PM PDT
 

111 house been pharteen (couldn't come up with better bathroom joke)

Ever notice that these LLL have an awfull lot of schoolin, but they are still uneducated and ignorant?

ever notice the "schoolin" has been hijacked by the left and our young minds are being inodctrinated with left wing propaganda while ranking the US at the lowest scholastic levels in math and science amoung all industrialized nations?


But lets throw more money at ourfailing education system right Peloshit?

 

 
#141 howyadoin  9/9/2005 10:10PM PDT
 

#138 Atlasshrugged

"FOX doesn't get the class of advertiser or share of ad dollars as say CNN, even though their numbers are so much greater and their CPMs much more effective"

Wow, I am surprised! From what I understand marketing and marketing types to be, I would figure they would go for the biggest buck, no matter what or where. You know, sell their soul.

I don't mean to offend anyone in marketing. Anyone here in marketing?

 

 
#142 gromster  9/9/2005 10:11PM PDT
 

#131 will_not_back_down

Yes, I know - please see previous posts I did where I said even if it is unintentional, it is in poor taste.

 

 
#143 trigger girlie  9/9/2005 10:11PM PDT
 

Is there some sort of petition goin' on to prevent the memories of those souls that were lost in that tragedy being shat upon?
Funny how most of the winners' names are Jewish. The people they defend the most would love to seem them hung from a bridge or blown up into pieces. What a fuckin' desecration, pardon my French.
/spit

 

 
#144 baltodog  9/9/2005 10:14PM PDT
 

I'm still smarting (30 years or so later) from the so-called "Viet Nam Veterans' Memorial"--that black-slabbed disgrace in Washington, DC. Add to that the hijacking of the 9/11 WTC memorial, and what conclusions can one come to except that the left tries to rewrite/dominate history by psuedo-artistic smear campaigns and revisionist history?

And now this.

I know that many on this site have counseled moderation and restraint in expressions of protest to the National Park Service and the sponsors of this heinous abomination, but screw all that--this means war. Bastards. Bastards. Bastards. Smug, smarmy, sanctimonious bastards.

 

 
#145 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:15PM PDT
 

The only course of action that would mobilze the designers to change this is angry letters from "Muslims" claiming it symbolizes Islam as a violent religion and desecrates the crescent. Is maple syrup halal?

 

 
#146 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:16PM PDT
 

#127 gromster 9/9/2005 09:55PM PDT
#94 rayra

Ah yes, you were biting my head off the other night in the other thread about this same topic.

I see nothing wrong with wanting proof that it was intentional or designed to be pro-Islamic before saying, "Okay, it was intentional."

~Maybe it was, but at this stage, I don't know.

Otherwise, I am not better than my friend at another board who believes -without evidence- that

1.a.)George W. Bush was behind 9/11; or
b.) knew about it in advance yet did nothing to stop it

2.) that Dick Cheney was involved in a conspiracy to "nuke" Iran.

When I asked her for proof for assertion #2, she cited an article by *Lyndon LaRouche,* and LaRouche had no proof in his piece, only un-named sources and conjecture.

If I'm not going to buy unfounded conspiracy theories or unproven assertions from the left, I'm no more prone in buying them uncritically from the right :o)

lol. Who the F are you calling "From the Right"? I voted fro Clinton in '92. And I've been an Independent since then.

Anyway, I certainly did NOT 'bite your head off'. You seem pretty f'n thin-skinned for an artist, if you call THAT 'biting your head off'.

 

 
#147 maximus delirious  9/9/2005 10:16PM PDT
 

liberality,

I don't get a lot of time to read all the threads here, and only post on occassion. So I don't know how active you are as a poster.

But you didn't do yourself any favor here. Your comments in the first thread about this subject were at least fairly reasoned. They still fell short from my standpoint, but an argument could be had that they were somewhat reasonable.

Your comment here just shows you as the typical liberal ass. No reason, just emotion and illogical conclusions.

It's often premature to start counting on a good harvest until the season is over. Or, in other words, don't count your chickies before they hatch. You've got a long time to wait before you know if Democrats reap any rewards from Katrina.

I'm bettin that you're going to be disappointed.

Next time, be happy with your 10% credibility and just shut up and sneak out.

I do hope they don't ban you though..... you're very entertaining in a hemoroidal (?) way.

 

 
#148 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  9/9/2005 10:18PM PDT
 

Does Liberality remember (not that I do, I was born the beginning of 1964, but unlike him/her/it, I can read)that the Civil Rights act was passed in Congress with a majority of Democrats voting against, because the majority of Republicans voted for it.

Or that, all fun Michael Moore had with him after he was already suffering with Alzheimers aside, Charlton Heston, life long Republican and 2nd Amendment advocate actually marched with Dr. Martin Luther King?

Tell me, what was your hero, Robert Byrd, the "Consience of the Senate", doing 50 years ago?

 

 
#149 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:18PM PDT
 

#130 howyadoin 9/9/2005 09:57PM PDT
You know, I keep leaning to the thought that they really didn't see it as an Islamic crescent. The natural shape of the ground there inspires tht sort of shape. Just WHY did he pick RED maples?

What about trees that show "re-birth" by blooming crazily in the spring? Cherry trees, pear, apple? Why red? How does the color red show "healing" and "bonding"? Red is the color of alarm, alert, get the heck out of the way or you're going to be pan-caked by a very large firetruck!

Why red?

Color of Blood.

 

 
#150 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 10:21PM PDT
 

127 gromster

I see nothing wrong with wanting proof that it was intentional or designed to be pro-Islamic before saying, "Okay, it was intentional."

I want proof that we exist

I want proof that this is not a dream some asshole is having and we are merely players.

I want proof that you really said that.

A is A

helllooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

 
#151 Ward Cleaver  9/9/2005 10:22PM PDT
 

#54 dipshit

Katrina is a liberal disaster. It affected, and continues to affect the downtrodden, the poor, the underclass. There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. There is no swarthy other to kill. Indeed, it was our own ruling class that let our citizens die. It is an epic disaster that can and will rally the country around Democrats.

It was the crooked Democratic political hacks in La. who screwed the people of NO, by talking the CoE into using tax dollars for pork-barrel projects like the new locks on the industrial canal and the port of Iberia, instead of flood control and mitigation projects in NO:

WaPo: Money Flowed to Questionable Projects

and embezzlement by employees of the La. Dept. of Homeland Security:

USDoJ: THREE STATE OFFICIALS INDICTED FOR OBSTRUCTING FEDERAL AUDIT

As Cheney would say, "GFY".

 

 
#152 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  9/9/2005 10:22PM PDT
 

I originally thought, "hey, maybe innocent mistake", but the name of the memorial is a give away.


It is a "hey, Islam, no hard feelings, we forgive you for killing 3000 people, forgive us for Israel and the Iraq invasion" monument.

 

 
#153 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:25PM PDT
 

#133 Gretchen 9/9/2005 10:01PM PDT
What I want to know is why they just didn't design something more subtle to show how the LLL felt about Flight 93 crashing? How about "Thanks for murdering Barbara Olsen" spelled out in Bushes?

(Barbara Olsen was on the plane that smashed into the Pentagon)

 

 
#154 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:27PM PDT
 

#137 Gretchen 9/9/2005 10:06PM PDT
#130 Howyadoin

I am sure the crescent as a symbol was intentional. There are dozens of other common shapes one could choose, any decent designer would be acutely aware of the symbolism he used. The red maples turn red around the time of the anniversary of Sept 11. This isn't about healing, it is a monument to the violent nature of Islam reaching out and giving the victims of Flight 93 a fatal embrace.

It is an abomination.

sonofabitch. Missed that last night when I was pointing out they'd be Muslim-Green most of the year.

 

 
#155 zombie  9/9/2005 10:29PM PDT
 

Not sure if this article has been posted before, but it's important and needs to be read:

Families, jury LOVE the design:

As the black cloak that had hidden the winner was removed, a collective gasp came from those gathered, who then rose to their feet to applaud.

In the front row, three family members --a woman who lost her mother, a woman who lost her husband and a woman who lost her brother -- leaned into each other, in a show of love and support.

"It's powerful but understated," said Kiki Homer, whose brother, LeRoy W. Homer Jr., was co-pilot on the plane that crashed after passengers rebelled against terrorist hijackers. "It's beautifully simple.

"My breath is taken away."

Esther Heymann, whose daughter, Elizabeth Wainio, died in the crash, agreed.

"The understatement speaks to the profoundness of what occurred here," she said.
...
From the beginning, said Milena Murdoch, 46, the focus for them was on the crash site, which many refer to as sacred ground.

She talks wistfully of a grove of hemlock trees behind the ground that withstood the impact of the crash.

"There was something unexplained about that place," Paul Murdoch added. "It's like being in a cathedral."

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the architects and the jury simply NEVER NOTICED that they were building a memorial to Islam. Incredible as it may seem, I have yet to uncover any intentional villainy on the part of the designers or the deciders. I think they may very well have been simply idiots who blundered into the worst decision of their lives, COMPLETELY UNAWARE of the design's significance.

I know that may not seem believable, but it really seems more and more to be true. I have spent hours searching databases about this, and reading articles from all over, and in every single case the significance of the crescent seems totally lost on these people.

I think once they are made aware of it, they will be horrified. In fact, Paul Murdoch has surely received hundreds of emails on this topic by now, and he's probably in shock.

 

 
#156 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:31PM PDT
 

#54 Liberality

Okay, if Katrina exposed the ignored underclass in NO, why aren't LA and NO politicians to blame? Democrats have ruled that state for decades and the problem of inner city crime and poverty have festered under Democrat rule. The Federal government doesn't control NO police who managed to keep the wealthy income producing (white) areas of the city relatively safe while poor people were left to live in fear of their neighbors with some of the highest murder rates in the nation. That's not Bush's fault, he's not the police chief.

Democrat politicians siphoned off millions in public works monies, and left poor people to drown while buses became water logged. Only an idiot would believe it was a good idea to shut bridges and not use every city and school bus to move people to safety outside the flood area. No Republican had control of these things. Democrats promise to help the poor, but they either treat them like half-wits who deserve pity or vote whores, enslaved by promises of more aid.

 

 
#157 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 10:31PM PDT
 

141 howyadoin

Wow, I am surprised! From what I understand marketing and marketing types to be, I would figure they would go for the biggest buck, no matter what or where. You know, sell their soul.

yeah, me

haven't you ever wondered why papers like The National Enquirer the largest selling newspaper in America could never get real ad dollars. Their revenues were really circ driven.

Or why a New York Times would sell advertsing that The New York Daily News (with larger numbers) or The New York Post wouldn't have a chance of getting?

Perception is everything in that biz and just like the media they play to themselves, which btw was ok in the past because buying network television and cable flights was a no brainer.

he media landscape is changing whether they like it or not, which is why you are suddenly seeing ad $ thrown at the net but mostly on search engines and major sites (NYTimes, WSJ etc.)

They don't know how to buy blog space, they are afraid of it

 

 
#158 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:34PM PDT
 

#153 Rayra - Thanks nice catch! My bad.

That was a comment I heard on Air America as one great thing that came out of 911.

 

 
#159 gymnast  9/9/2005 10:34PM PDT
 

#155, zombie. Interesting and objective comments. Now a hypothetical question. How many kid at Auswitz, born after 1933, were named Adolf.

 

 
#160 atlasshrugged  9/9/2005 10:38PM PDT
 

141 howyadoin

Anyone here in marketing?

yeah,me

(thats what the "yeah me" was in *157)

strategic planning, publishing background, New York Newspapers

 

 
#161 Gretchen  9/9/2005 10:39PM PDT
 

#157

Do you think the ad buys decisions are driven by executives of the companies (who probably trend right) or the ad buyers who think Fox is for drooling idiots? If the buyers aren't working by demographics they aren't doing their jobs.

 

 
#162 Patrick Chester  9/9/2005 10:42PM PDT
 

I am not surprised by liberality's little spewage? It's a ghoul. They think writing like the comments in #54 is acceptable.

It's hard for liberality to feel shame at what it does, since it has no capacity for it.

 

 
#163 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:42PM PDT
 

#148 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades 9/9/2005 10:18PM PDT
Does Liberality remember (not that I do, I was born the beginning of 1964, but unlike him/her/it, I can read)that the Civil Rights act was passed in Congress with a majority of Democrats voting against, because the majority of Republicans voted for it.

Or that, all fun Michael Moore had with him after he was already suffering with Alzheimers aside, Charlton Heston, life long Republican and 2nd Amendment advocate actually marched with Dr. Martin Luther King?

Tell me, what was your hero, Robert Byrd, the "Consience of the Senate", doing 50 years ago?

Pic of Heston at one of the very first Civil Rights protest actions

And I triple-dog-dare that asswipe Liberality to look upon it and do anything but issue a cliched sneer.

 

 
#164 zombie  9/9/2005 10:45PM PDT
 

OK, I rarely do this, but I RETRACT my post #155, after reading the psyche-destroying article linked to by #132 Lightning_Man above.

EVERYONE: REFRAIN FROM COMMENTING until you read THIS article.

The designer and the jurors DID KNOW ABOUT THE ISLAMIC CONNECTION, but decided that "it wasn't important."

Has the world gone mad? ?

I'm speechless after reading some of this -- well, not speechless, but becoming apoplectic:

"A crescent is part of architectural vocabulary. It's a generic form used in design," said Paul Murdoch, one of the winning architects. "We don't see any one group having ownership of it."

Murdoch believes it's unfortunate that the design is being interpreted that way.

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

Murdoch did say they have no intentions of changing the design.
...
Mark McMorrow, who runs the Constitutional Conservative blog online, wrote this yesterday: "Didn't anybody pick up on the crescent/Islam relationship? Didn't this occur to any of the victim's family members? Even if it's an accident, I don't think this design is acceptable."

Later, in a phone interview, McMorrow said he was surprised to learn family members of those who died in the attack weren't offended by the use of the crescent.

"It's like figuring swastikas into a Holocaust memorial," he said.

But the families of the passengers and crew of Flight 93 don't have a problem with the design.

"I think people are reading too much into it," said Kenneth Nacke, whose brother, Louis, died in the crash. "It doesn't affect my decision on it in any way. I'm still happy with it."

Gordon Felt, whose brother, Edward, died in the crash, called the focus on the crescent an "unfortunate distraction," from the fourth anniversary memorial service tomorrow at the crash site.
...
The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That's why, in their recommendations, they wrote: "Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as 'the circle or arc,' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography."

But Rabiah Ahmed, a spokeswoman with the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C., said there is no one official symbol associated with Islam.

She acknowledges that the crescent has come to represent the religion. But, she continued, it does not hold the same significance, for example, as the cross does to Christianity.

Ahmed says she can understand why the crescent would be associated with Islam, which has 7 million followers in the United States and more than a billion worldwide.

"People forget Muslims died [in the attacks], too," Ahmed said. "Islam, as a religion itself, was hijacked on 9/11."

Self-proclaimed bishop Ron McRae, a street evangelist based in Somerset County, has vowed to fight the use of the crescent symbol in the Flight 93 memorial.

He believes the architects used it purposely.

"It's a memorial to the terrorists," McRae said. "It's not a memorial to the innocent Americans who died there."

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."

AAAGGGHHH!

Destination: apoplexy.

 

 
#165 bluemerle  9/9/2005 10:48PM PDT
 

I just posted this down in the other flight 93 memorial thread..


D.Edgren posted earlier about the qibla for the time of the crash.

The crescent itself is tilted on that axis, like an arrowhead facing mecca.

The qibla (the direction you face when you pray a muslim prayer) in America is generally north-east, like the orientation of the memorial, so I thought it was worth a look.

If you complete the imaginary arc of the circle that is missing from the crescent, the midpoint of that arc through the midpoint of the peak of the crescent shoots towards Mecca.

Probably just a coincidence, though.

 

 
#166 Rayra  9/9/2005 10:51PM PDT
 

#155 zombie 9/9/2005 10:29PM PDT
...I know that may not seem believable, but it really seems more and more to be true. I have spent hours searching databases about this, and reading articles from all over, and in every single case the significance of the crescent seems totally lost on these people.

I think once they are made aware of it, they will be horrified. In fact, Paul Murdoch has surely received hundreds of emails on this topic by now, and he's probably in shock.

Probably so. And the measure of Paul and Milena will be their reaction to it. Obstinancy, refusal, willful ignorance would fit with the Eco-Cultist nature of their works. I hope they do better.

/pessimistic

 

 
#167 maximus delirious  9/9/2005 10:53PM PDT
 

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

He's already called it a crescent. He named it a crescent. Why would he believe people should interpret it otherwise?

 

 
#168 howyadoin  9/9/2005 10:55PM PDT
 

Atlasshrugged,

Thanks for the information on ad buying. it really is so much Greek to me. It seems like a lot more than just how many eyeballs will see the ad.

 

 
#169 bluemerle  9/9/2005 10:59PM PDT
 

I should clarify - D edgrens post is here

He calculated the qibla at the time of the crash a bit over 55 degrees from the north.

If the crescent is an arrowhead, the shaft is a line from the peak of the arc to the midpoint of the (imaginary) arc that completes the circle,

BOING!

An arrow to Mecca.

Again, probably just a coincidence, like the color and the shape and the name, etc.

 

 
#170 adela  9/9/2005 11:05PM PDT
 

As long as we continue to be cowards,afraid of the ACLU,afraid of the multiculturalism crowd ,afraid of the CAIR,this is exactly what we deserve,and worse...

 

 
#171 Rayra  9/9/2005 11:06PM PDT
 

#164 zombie 9/9/2005 10:45PM PDT
...But Rabiah Ahmed, a spokeswoman with the Council on American-Islamic Relations in Washington, D.C., said there is no one official symbol associated with Islam.

She acknowledges that the crescent has come to represent the religion. But, she continued, it does not hold the same significance, for example, as the cross does to Christianity.

Ahmed says she can understand why the crescent would be associated with Islam, which has 7 million followers in the United States and more than a billion worldwide.

ok, 3yrs ago it was 3 Million. 18mos ago it was 6 million. Today the Lie is spoken as 7 Million.

Not even our southern border is that f'n porous.

5yrs is too f'n long to wait for our next census - although, within the next 5yrs the jihadists will have lied themselves up to a ridiculous figure that will collapse utterly after the 2010 Census.

We've REALLY got to purge every organizational member of CAIR from our shores / nation. Kick these lying motherfuckers out of our culture.

 

 
#172 stuiec  9/9/2005 11:14PM PDT
 

#145 Gretchen

The only course of action that would mobilze the designers to change this is angry letters from "Muslims" claiming it symbolizes Islam as a violent religion and desecrates the crescent. Is maple syrup halal?

That's what I was getting at in my post #55, but you said it better.

 

 
#173 Beagle  9/9/2005 11:15PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

9/11 was a very conservative disaster. It gave war-mongers a defined enemy (which you still managed to fuck up, but whatever, all those A-rabs look the same anyway).

Obviously you mean Bin Laden. He was somewhat limited around, say, 1993. It's a mass movement of jihadis circling the globe now. I'm sure you don't remember the 1993 WTC, 1996 Khobar Towers, 1998 embassies, or 2000 Cole. Furthermore, I'm positive you've never bothered to read his 1996 and 1998 fatwas where he tried to mobilize "all Muslims" to his calling using the Koran and hadith.
Here's your "defined enemy" - moron.
I'd 'define' it as everywhere jihadi movements exist. That excludes the Arctic and Antarctic.

Charles, can't we get some better trolls? Doesn't anyone on the Left have a passable knowledge of recent, modern history? I'm not asking for much, just the last decade or so.

 

 
#174 Canadhimmis  9/9/2005 11:19PM PDT
 

Paul Murdoch,

This crescent is as bad as if you used a damn bullseye for the memorial.
No matter what your motive is in using this symbol, to commemorate the atrocities of Flight 93 in this way is completely unacceptable. It.will.not.stand.

 

 
#175 Canadhimmis  9/9/2005 11:29PM PDT
 

Re post 169,

I think this thing faces Mecca too.
The Lat/Long of the Flight 93 crash site is 40.055 degrees N, 78.901 degrees W, which converts to 40 degrees 3' 18" N and 78 degrees 54' 4" W.

The orientation of the believer to Mecca is the Qibla. There are several Quibla calculators on the web. Using one of them, and inputting the above coordinates along with local time of 10:06 a.m. EDT, which was the time of impact, the Qibla direction from the impact point to Mecca is 55 degrees 11' 42" (Mecca, BTW, is 10,963 miles away).

If this monument just happens to be oriented on that axis, hell will hath no fury, etc. Nobody should rest until NPS rescinds the contract. I don't believe that there would be a senator or representative who could take the heat of public (less, of course, CAIR and the other usual suspects) outrage over something that would be revealed as undermining the very purpose of creating the memorial in the first place.

Anybody have any info on the orientation of the design?


D. Edgren

 

 
#176 The Drizzle  9/9/2005 11:33PM PDT
 

#54 liberality:
Guess what,troll? I agree with you. Katrina IS a liberal disaster. In that when it happened, the liberal mayor and governor did nothing, and the media blamed Bush. Oh, and know-nothing troll douchebags came to LGF to show how stupid they are. Go back to fire island, fruit.

 

 
#177 Nahanni  9/9/2005 11:34PM PDT
 

#54 liberality

Here is a little reading material for you.

The Kingfish is dead

In the end, It wont be 'conservative values' that will have beaten the Democrats, it wasnt the "Reagan revolution" and it wont be the Bush family.
It will be the lawyers.
Katrina marks the end of the Democratic party in its current incarnation. Some day you will be able to measure time as "Before Katrina" and "After Katrina". The last great Democrat capital of the old south has fallen to an outside force, a force of lawyers and officials that will make life hell for the political machine that has run the state and city for generations, there is no "win" here, only a "hold" and in the end they will have to give up. Louisiana in 20 years time will look like a smaller leaner version of Texas, friendly to business with low taxes and Democrats will only exist in force at the edge of college campuses, just as they do today in the once great Democrat stronghold of Texas.
30 years ago, Texas was Louisiana. Today Texas is an economic force that is capable of the highest growth out of any state in the union. An economy so strong that its taken to supporting 150,000 people from Louisiana in the blink of an eye. A large number of those people will go on to stay in Texas after the waters have been removed from New Orleans but all will be impacted by what they saw in Texas, and some will begin to expect it of their own government when they finally return to Louisiana.
The Louisiana Democratic machine - is Dead.

 

 
#178 Canadhimmis  9/9/2005 11:42PM PDT
 

Charles, This is worth checking out.

Anybody have any info on the orientation of the design?

See posts 175 and 169. Do you know any G.I.S. experts? Can we find out what way the crescent is oriented?


Thanks and happy Danniversary,

Canadhimmis

 

 
#179 Cactus  9/9/2005 11:44PM PDT
 

Hi everyone:
I think the artists must have known what they were doing. I think they thought that no one would notice. (except the moslems)
If they were trying to decieve us the drawing would have been from an lower angle or with different coloring so it wouldn't look so obvious.
The name is more of a give-a-way. "Crescent of Embrace" They want us to embrace islam or they want islam to embrace us.
There's only three family members there.

"It's powerful but understated," said Kiki Homer, whose brother, LeRoy W. Homer Jr., was co-pilot on the plane that crashed after passengers rebelled against terrorist hijackers. "It's beautifully simple.
"My breath is taken away."

Esther Heymann, whose daughter, Elizabeth Wainio, died in the crash, agreed.

"The understatement speaks to the profoundness of what occurred here," she said.


The two that are quoted both think the memorial is "understated". A talking point from one of the artists probably when they smooth talked them with their artistic pontification. Look at the way they word everything.

The idea of the Crescent of Embrace, Murdoch said, is to be a gesture of healing and bonding.

From the memorial's website:

Through the gesture of embrace, a curving landform formally designates the edge of the Bowl. The crescent of embrace enhances the form and monumental scale of the Bowl to commemorate the heroic actions of the passengers and crew of Flight 93.

They use the word gesture a lot, as in, 'We have to make a gesture of peace to the moslems.' They just make it up as they go along. I went to their website last night and it's all artistic mumbo jumbo.
I agree with the posters that the red represents blood and the fall, just around now is when the leaves are turning red. Those are the sort of things that an artist is supposed to know. Things like symbolism.
I would think a circle represents healing and bonding better than a sickle soaked with blood.
Actually has anyone brought up the red sickle yet. Maybe their commie moslem sympathizers.
And then there's the people that awarded this first prize.
Flight93memorialproject.org
I also think it's signifiacant that only three families were represented, seemingly by only one family member. Where were the rest of them. Perhaps they've seen it and stayed away.

 

 
#180 maximus delirious  9/9/2005 11:46PM PDT
 

I'm glad the families don't have a problem with it.

But unfortunately, this was still a National event and this is intended as a National Memorial. There is a clear case that the memorial includes a red crescent, and this is an insult to a great many.

While the families should certainly have some input, this is not something that is there's alone. If it's viewed as an insult by a majority, we are still talking public land and those concerns should also be addressed.

Given that the immediate families have been granted tax maintained private areas, exclusive on-site housing, etc... it's easy to understand why they might like this design.

Personally, I have an ancestor who fell at the Little Bighorn. I tried to build a cabin at the monument once, just to use for private remembrance, and they threatened to forcibly remove me.

Some of this sensitivity for 9-11 families, IMHO, is just getting a bit overboard. There were a lot of victims of 9/11.... the entire country was a victim. Honors and priveleges are fine, but I don't have anyone footing the bill for my families past contributions.

 

 
#181 Lady of Shalott (ylreveb)  9/9/2005 11:52PM PDT
 

#164 zombie

"It's a memorial to the terrorists," McRae said. "It's not a memorial to the innocent Americans who died there."

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."


Gee, it's so SMALL - MINDED and BIGOTED (Ding!) to object to memorializing MASS MURDERERS. How COULD we be so narrow-minded?

I don't know about y'all, but I'm just CRUSHED by this guy's rebuke.

HO-kay. Time to line these fuckers up against the wall and drill them. With dum-dum bullets.

 

 
#182 Cactus  9/9/2005 11:54PM PDT
 

Site map of the memorial

 

 
#183 bluemerle  9/10/2005 12:13AM PDT
 

I compared Google satellite maps to the pdf of the proposed memorial; both are in typical north/south east/west format.

In north america the qibla is to the North East,
and the memorial's crescent of trees also has a northeast cant.

Perfect measuring might show some differences,
but it makes a fair match to the qibla.

If you draw a straight line from the center point of an arc that completes the circle, through the center peak of the red crescent, it runs NE about 55-57 degrees from the north.

I feel all tin-foily... but I don't like the coincidence even if it is one.

 

 
#184 bluemerle  9/10/2005 12:27AM PDT
 

Here's a cropped jpeg of the site plan oriented with north at the top.

 

 
#185 Joshua (not a hamster) Scholar  9/10/2005 12:41AM PDT
 

#164 zombie

Well if it makes you feel any better consider the fact that actual Islamists will be threatened by the the combination of an Islamic symbol with peaceful language and intent "Crescent of Embrace" is going to strike them as blasphamy.

The "crescent of Islam" is not meant as an embrace, to them, that I'm sure of.

 

 
#186 jonturner  9/10/2005 12:54AM PDT
 

#183 bluemerle
>>55-57 degrees from the north

Too many coincidences... I wouldn't be surprised if it points toward Mecca, too.

 

 
#187 fluffyabsolutist  9/10/2005 12:56AM PDT
 

omg it's too late for France!

 

 
#188 Right Wing Animator  9/10/2005 12:59AM PDT
 

I'll say this again just in case no one is listening, this artist knows what he is putting in, and he knows the symboligy of it all. I am 99.9% sure of this largely because I know what I'm putting into a drawing, if I get a request for an unknonw thing, I research it..

 

 
#189 JustMyView  9/10/2005 01:06AM PDT
 

I'll say this again just in case no one is listening, this artist knows what he is putting in, and he knows the symboligy of it all. I am 99.9% sure of this largely because I know what I'm putting into a drawing, if I get a request for an unknonw thing, I research it..


Symboligy? The language use here is on a par w/ the thinking in this thread. Truly off the deep end.

 

 
#190 Dom  9/10/2005 01:17AM PDT
 

JustMyView (#189),

The main thing seems to be:

Al Qaeda argues that it's terror is a tool of Islamic awakening in the world. Al Qaeda was responsible for bringing down Flight 93. A huge public memorial is to be built. Presently the memorial plan is for a large crescent. The crescent is the only common symbol of Islam. Looking at the design one is reminded of the flags of Muslim countries. The architect not only designed this, but called it 'The Crescent of Embrace'. A lot of people have suggested the design be slightly modified, and that it is totally innappropriate to let it go ahead in its present form. Additionally it apparently points to Mecca. Some think the design was a subversive twist and others accept it may be coincidence. I hope this summary helped. What is JustYourView on all this?

 

 
#191 JustMyView  9/10/2005 01:22AM PDT
 

#190 Dom

Thanks for your comments. I understand the basis of the preceding comments. My own view, though, is that the people who are upset about this are making something out of nothing.

 

 
#192 Mike C.  9/10/2005 01:26AM PDT
 

# 190 Dom

Which direction (in degrees) is the crescent 'pointing' ? I assume by 'pointing', you mean where is the gap in the crescent aimed.

 

 
#193 Mike C.  9/10/2005 01:29AM PDT
 

RE # 192

I see up above that somebody is saying the crescent is 'pointing' northeast and that's towards Mecca. That's piss-poor geography - Mecca would be to the southeast from anyplace in PA.

 

 
#194 JustMyView  9/10/2005 01:32AM PDT
 

#193 Mike C.

Somebody -- zombie, I think -- said this isn't oriented toward Mecca. Think it was in yesterday's thread.

 

 
#195 Dom  9/10/2005 01:36AM PDT
 

JustMyView,

You're welcome. That wasn't how you put it first time, you took a poorly phrased post and smeared everyone with it.

9/11 was internationally significant and anything related to it is of interest. Personally I think if the memorial is worth doing it's worth doing properly, and it is an outrage in this instance that the design based on a crescent got passed. They were aware of the objection (Pastorius, #27).

My impression is you don't especially give a shit about the memorial, which is fair enough; it is one of those nice things you can ignore if you like. Others are pushing to take a clear stand with this memorial, to ensure it commemorates the loss of life without adding pro-Islamic connotations.

 

 
#196 maximus delirious  9/10/2005 01:36AM PDT
 

Some might think it's making something out of nothing, but the fact remains that this is still public land and a National memorial. Close to 200,000 acres when all is said and done. Typically, public comment and input is welcome concerning said matters.

But here we have the architect making this kind of comment...

Murdoch did say they have no intentions of changing the design.

Murdoch might be the winning architect, but the last I've heard he has no authority over the National Parks. If enough criticism is heard, I don't think Murdoch is the final word on what actually transpires at the site.

That comment along with his response that everyone can just call it a circle, even though he named it a crescent... really makes it sound like he does have an agenda.

 

 
#197 Mike C.  9/10/2005 01:37AM PDT
 

# 194 JustMyView

Well, if it's 'aimed' somehow (how do you aim a crescent ?) to the NE, that sure as hell is a fact. Mecca's one hell of a lot closer to the equator than PA, so the most direct shot would be to the SE. If you want to go the long way around, you would aim NW. NE won't do any good at all.

 

 
#198 Dom  9/10/2005 01:41AM PDT
 

Mike C (#193),

Undecided...

http://littlegreenfo...
Zombie's post

http://littlegreenfo...
bluemerle's post

 

 
#199 Mike C.  9/10/2005 01:47AM PDT
 

# 198 Dom

Undecided ? I know there's continental drift, but I doubt if the direction from the crash site to Mecca changes according to the date and time of day. From anywhere in PA, Mecca is to the southeast.

 

 
#200 maximus delirious  9/10/2005 01:48AM PDT
 

Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

Even though he names it a crescent.

Or let's look at his comments another way concerning the Swastika of Understanding by it's chief architect.

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it a twisted cross. We can call it a good luck emblem. We can call it the Crux Dissimulata. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

"We have no objection to calling it something else."

It would still be a swastika in the end.

 

 
#201 JustMyView  9/10/2005 01:49AM PDT
 

#197 Mike C.

I didn't quite follow your comment. Not sure whether you were agreeing w/ what I said or not. I don't have any expertise on this matter. Was just quoting zombie, who seems to be paying a lot of attention to this issue.

You're right about the idea that it doesn't really seem feasible to "aim" a crescent. I took "aim" in this context to mean the direction in which the opening in the crescent is oriented, which, appears to me to be roughly SW.

But, again, I don't really have a dog in this fight. I'm not sure what others meant by "aim." Was just calling attention to zombie's comment.

 

 
#202 Dom  9/10/2005 01:50AM PDT
 

Mike C,

I used the calculator linked by D. Edgren. Says North East.

 

 
#203 Dom  9/10/2005 01:54AM PDT
 

It is North East.

Explained

 

 
#204 Mike C.  9/10/2005 01:59AM PDT
 

# 201 JustMyView

I thought you were saying it was somehow 'aimed' to the northeast and not towards Mecca, and I was agreeing with the fact that being 'aimed' to the notheast (or southwest, if you want to go the long way around the globe) would not be towards Mecca.

# 202 Dom

I'm pretty sure that's wrong, but give me a bit to check. One thing I do know is that the direction from any geographical location does not change, because those little direction arrows in hotel rooms in islamic countries are always well fixed in place. Ignoring movements over geological time and the increadibaly tiny variations due to tidal effects, any two points on earth can be considered to have a fixed relationship to each other.

 

 
#205 Mike C.  9/10/2005 02:16AM PDT
 

# 203 Dom

Ah, I see what they are getting at ! That's very interesting. I wonder if that's considered correct ? After all, "line of sight" is a straight line, not a curved line. A straight line (through the earth) between anyplace in PA and Mecca is definitely southeast. For example, Philly is at 40:00:25 N, 75:08:05 W. Mecca is at 21:27:00 N, 39:49:00 E. Clearly to the southeast. Here's more than ample cause for a schism !

 

 
#206 Dom  9/10/2005 02:29AM PDT
 

Mike C (#205),

Don't discount that if you wander round the globe enough times in a straight rhumb line you will probably encounter Mecca, or someplace indistinguishable from Mecca. They can work it out if you give them enough time, starting North East. So that one proved true, about the crescent facing Qibla.

 

 
#207 JustMyView  9/10/2005 02:45AM PDT
 

#206 Dom

They can work it out if you give them enough time, starting North East. So that one proved true, about the crescent facing Qibla.

Is that correct? Even if Qibla is NE, do we know that the crescent is "facing" that way. As Mike pointed out, it's not clear what it means for a crescent to be "facing" something. What is the "face" of the crescent? The opening or the arc?

Just askin'.

 

 
#208 abolitionist  9/10/2005 02:50AM PDT
 

#199 Mike C.

From anywhere in PA, Mecca is to the southeast.

You may be thinking (wrongly) in terms of a flat world map (Cartesian coordinates). But globally, think of a geometric plane which intesects points A (PA) and B (Mecca) on surface of sphere. The intersection of plane and sphere is a circle --one of many possible circles. Apply one more constraint. Require plane to pass thru center of sphere. Result is called a great circle. Shortest path from A to B is along THAT circle. Hope that helps.

 

 
#209 Dom  9/10/2005 02:52AM PDT
 

If Bluemerle's calculation is reliable, a straight line from the hollow through the bulge of the crescent points North East, and if our online Qibla calculators and Muslim scholars are not lying that is the direction of Qibla. Amazingly I found that out by using a popular search engine, and simply reading the posts under discussion. ;-)

 

 
#210 Mike C.  9/10/2005 02:56AM PDT
 

# 208 abolitionist

No, I'm not confused. Mecca is roughly 20 degrees south and 35 degrees east of Philly. I know full well you can't travel there in a straight line, since that would be through the earth. And I know that a great circle is the shortest distance along the surface of a sphere. The question I find intersting is that of "facing" Mecca. If you stand anywhere in PA and face northeast, you are NOT facing Mecca. To travel to Mecca in the shortest distance from PA you WILL start out traveling NE, but that's not the same thing as "facing."

 

 
#211 Dom  9/10/2005 02:57AM PDT
 

JustMyView,

I can't help noticing I've been grouchy lately, nothing personal.

 

 
#212 Dom  9/10/2005 03:05AM PDT
 

Mike C,

If you're facing North East, you're facing a line to Mecca, is what they're saying. The fact that if you travel the line it stops being North East is beside the point. Subject to my own understanding.

 

 
#213 CDRSalamander  9/10/2005 03:30AM PDT
 

What a horrible concept to honor our dead.

Here is my take.
http://cdrsalamander...

 

 
#214 Banagor  9/10/2005 03:35AM PDT
 

I was going to write a retort to those people who still think this is a bogus thing to get upset about, but it turned into a full blown rant.

And I didn't want to post it here, so I posted it on my blog. I'm really offended. This thing has set me off like never before. I don't want a damn red crescent anywhere on this land. I hate the damned thing. I frigging hate it. If you want to know why, you can read it there. I won't bother posting it here because I really blew my top...but I had to frigging say it already. I'm so mad as hell about this. I'm really, really mad. You think zombie is mad? Take that and put it to the power of ten effing million and square that. That's how mad I am.

Somebody has to set the damned record straight. I'm sick and tired of pussy footing around. Anyone who hasn't read the koran already should shut the fuck up already and go and read the fucking book before you start saying that this symbol isn't fucking offensive. And if you think I just blew my lid here, I'm only getting started on how pissed off I got in my little piece. I frigging hate this symbol. I hate it and I abhor everything it stands for and I'm tired and I'm sick of hearing excuses made for it.

Red Crescent Outrage - Islamophobia. Oh and yeah, strong language ahead. But hey! I'm only talking about the "Religion of Peace". Somehow, they seem to fit.

 

 
#215 JustMyView  9/10/2005 03:47AM PDT
 

#212 Dom

I can't help noticing I've been grouchy lately, nothing personal.

That's very nice of you. I think I'm going to have to check out. Unlike Mike, I'm not in Kuwait and should be sleeping.

FWIW, I agree w/ you and others who have said that it's important to consider how the design will be interpreted. I just don't think it's very likely that this fairly generic shape will be interpreted as an Islamic symbol by many people--in part because most people won't be looking at it from above and in part because crescents are not rare. If we devoted a little time to it, I'm sure we could find lots of them in all kinds of designs.

You might want to look again at the design. I actually think it could be quite a lovely site.

But, I'm sure there'll be more to say about this in the future, as there are two levels of approval (National Park Service and Department of the Interior) to go through.

Nice chatting w/ you.

 

 
#216 abolitionist  9/10/2005 03:56AM PDT
 

#205 Mike C.

For example, Philly is at 40:00:25 N, 75:08:05 W. Mecca is at 21:27:00 N, 39:49:00 E.

#210 Mike C.
Mecca is roughly 20 degrees south and 35 115 (=75+40) degrees east of Philly.

/hope that helps (trusting your #s)

 

 
#217 Mike C.  9/10/2005 04:11AM PDT
 

# 216 abolitionist

Uh, yeah, that would be a better number, wouldn't it ? I looked up the numbers on a locator website, so I assume they're roughly correct. I just forgot I had locations on both sides of the prime meridian. Doh !

 

 
#218 Dom  9/10/2005 04:28AM PDT
 

JustMyView (#215),

I've said elsewhere the images I've seen are beautiful, but the design needs modifications. You couldn't care less, so we know where we differ. Where we agree, ftr, is not to jump the gun with assumptions about what the architect had in mind.

Been so so.

 

 
#219 jrdroll  9/10/2005 05:05AM PDT
 

Oh my the lll are upset when critized:

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."


http://www.post-gaze...

So lll. Smear your opponent and don't directly answer the arguement.

 

 
#220 jrdroll  9/10/2005 05:17AM PDT
 

Of course cair puts their plugged nickel in:

She acknowledges that the crescent has come to represent the religion. But, she continued, it does not hold the same significance, for example, as the cross does to Christianity.


http://www.post-gaze...

Then why is it on the flags of so many islamic countries?

 

 
#221 Sam I Am  9/10/2005 05:18AM PDT
 

#200 maximus delirious


Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...


So the creator of this abomination admits that it is a crescent, the symbol of Isalm.

He further calls it the Crescent of Embrace.

Well, seems to me when one feels the warm embrace of the crescent (Islam) one usually loses their head ala Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, etc.

And this is not a new, modern phenomenon but rather something the Muslims have been practicing since this so-called religion of peace has been around.

Again, I am madder than hell about this and I'm not going to take this PC crap anymore. I will rail about this to any and all about what the LLL, PC crowd and the Islamists in the United States do to try to obscure the truth.

As the Australian government told their resident Muslims population, If you don't like our democracy and want to establish Sharia law you can get the f**k out and form your vile and debased country somewhere else.

 

 
#222 Cognito Primoris  9/10/2005 05:26AM PDT
 

#34 Carolyn

Ever heard of Roundup®

Roundup Herbicide, and all of it's offshoots (Roundup UltraMax, R2U, etc.) are all glyphosate-based herbicides. They are designed to kill broadleaf weeds, not trees or shrubs. Mind you, enough glyphosate will kill almost anything, but for trees, I would suggest 2, 4-D, a herbicide found in LowVol6 and GrazOn. When sprayed in the field on a windy day, I've seen the drift kill trees-live oaks and elms-2 miles away.

Sorry, got to get some of that folksy wisdom from down on the farm out there.

 

 
#223 Horsesoldier  9/10/2005 05:27AM PDT
 

54 Liberality

"There is no one to bomb to make our cock seem bigger. '

Now I understand you, may we call "Shorty"?
"Stumpy"? "Half-pint"?

Did you read that on CodePink sign?

 

 
#224 BlackOrchid  9/10/2005 05:35AM PDT
 

Actually, #215 JustMyView, many people will in fact see the memorial from above, flying over a very oft-used major flight path. The memorial is on an extremely grand scale, most likely in order to be better seen from the air. Since Shanksville is essentially in Nowheresville, probably far more people will see this from above than on the ground.

This design is inappropriate regardless of the designers' intentions (which I personally think were intentional, albeit from a completely wrong-headed, soft-and-squishy, multi-culti place).

 

 
#225 Jed  9/10/2005 06:09AM PDT
 

This is a repeat of my previous post:

Outrageous. Dementia. Abysmal stupidity. Sickening.

Is this a memorial to the 4 Muslims who killed Americans?

Express your outrage. Call Chris Martin, who is in charge of the memorial.

412-952-6332

Calling the Superintendent of the Flight 93 National Memorial at (814) 443-4557 is useless.

DON'T JUST POUND YOU COMPUTER.
DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
CALL !
CALL !

 

 
#226 Tinker  9/10/2005 06:14AM PDT
 

Liberality,

Please, please keep posting. I'm printing out your rants to illustrate to friends, family, whomever what a textbook case study of current liberal disfunctionality looks like.

Though, some time in the future, I would recommend you get to a therapist. You seem to have a lot of racial, sexual and cognitive issues that I fear will take you decades to resolve. If ever.

 

 
#227 wanumba  9/10/2005 06:18AM PDT
 

Science and higher education are the second things to go in a Wahhabist state - the first being other religions. I don't know whether they face east in matter where they are or adjust it depending on the devotee's cardinal location.
The designers of the "memorial" however are quite aware of geometry and are quite capable of positioning their design for maximum "significance." The entire entry was certainly judged for all the "nuances." The complete narrative fo each design element was most certainly submitted with the visual design. That's probably the source for all the explanations of the trees, the signifance of the red...the black stones. The major sly message to the judging panel was probably "Wink, wInk.."

I think it was Terp Mole (sorry - still getting the coffee in - memory will be better in an hour) who was talking about the choice of black stone, and some of the other design peculiarities. This entire presentation is a huge Pagan monument. Everything about it - emotes something pagan - nature worship, sacred circles - that's evoking the oak-worshipping Druids and Tribal rituals of Native Americans, not to mention the Celts. The designers, given their backgrounds, are fully cognizant of these things and have certainly used them before in other designs.

Doubt should be the first reaction when the immediate defense is "ALL the families (in attendance) liked it." The Left ALWAYS says that and later we find out that there were two families there, no one else could make it and no one really got a view of what it was about. Yep, consensus.

The entire thing is an abomination.

Todd Beamer asked the telephone operator to pray Psalm 23 with him to strengthen himself and those with him to do what they had to do. They did not want to die, but to our eternal gratitude, they didn't want to allow the hijackers to use their plane to murder innocents.

"The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside still waters,
he restores my soul.
He guides me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
You prepare a table before me,
in the presence of my enemies,
you anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
Surely, goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."

Then, Todd Breamer, said, "Let's Roll."

 

 
#228 Ojoe  9/10/2005 06:22AM PDT
 

I am an Architect and I say Screw this fucking inappropriate and disgusting memorial proposal!

 

 
#229 TotallySirius  9/10/2005 06:23AM PDT
 

I know how to fix this.

Just put a big red circle around it and then add a bar across the crescent.

Like a "Do not enter" sign.

 

 
#230 hillbilly geek  9/10/2005 06:27AM PDT
 

Murdoch, the architect, who calls this the Crescent of Embrace...

"You can call it all kinds of things. We can call it an arc. We can call it a circle. We can call it the edge of the bowl. The label doesn't matter to us in terms of intent.

Is this the edge of the bowl in which the frog was slowly boiled to death?

 

 
#231 American Infidel  9/10/2005 06:28AM PDT
 

#230 hillbilly geek

Is this the edge of the bowl in which the frog was slowly boiled to death?

Well not a bowl, it is the edge of the POT the frog was boiled in...

 

 
#232 big L  9/10/2005 06:28AM PDT
 

The arhitect and committee: Cynical,smirky, LLL-think. Laughing all the way to get their lattes. How they pulled a fast one on the neocons and the people of the USA

It continues the mockery of the islam-fascists to take the most wonderous invention the jet airplane and use that to wreck another pair of unbelievably sophistcated and complex of mankind's contructions. As if to say, "see, you guys in the West aresn't so smart. We turned your inventions and bldgs into shit and into weapons against you!"
Same with this design, "see you revere these passengers that fought back agaist Islam. We are smarter than you and turn the reverence into an Islamic memorial on Your gravesite and in Your country....
Same with the use of the internet, same with the use of the tv stations. They invent nothing but use our inventions aganst us.
the same mockery, the same cynicism.

 

 
#233 lidsville  9/10/2005 06:29AM PDT
 

The design company is from Los Angeles. Remember: The ACLU made Los Angeles county remove a cross from their county seal.

http://www.brentmorr...

This is ridiculous, they honor the killers not the heroes. This will not stand.

 

 
#234 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  9/10/2005 06:32AM PDT
 

Not having seen this before or read all the posts, the only thing I can say is zombie did one hell-of-an-incredible-job.

 

 
#235 Dom  9/10/2005 06:34AM PDT
 

jrdroll (#219),

The crescent associated with Islam is the lunar crescent, which is wider in the middle and tapers to points on each end. The crescent in the Murdochs' design maintains a steady thickness all the way around.

Looks to me like it tapers to points on each end.

The journalist hasn't been very adventurous, she hasn't got any political or general public response whatsoever, and she seems to think all the families have been consulted, which they haven't. There were just a select few on the panel.

 

 
#236 whimcycle  9/10/2005 06:38AM PDT
 

If the looney liberal left isn't defeated, the radical islamist will simply rededicate this to the 9/11 terrorist when they take over the world.

 

 
#237 lidsville  9/10/2005 06:40AM PDT
 

email your complaints to:

info@paulmurdocharchitects.com

 

 
#238 Tinker  9/10/2005 06:40AM PDT
 

#225 Jed

Thanks! I called the guy, got his voice mail. Politely told him it was highly offensive and an insult to the Flight 93 heroes and to the country in general.

Some years ago, Nike (I think) produced a sneaker that had a symbol on the back that looked almost exactly like the arabic words for Allah. Muslims blew a gasket. Nike apologized, saying they didn't know how it happened. Regardless, they pulled that line of sneakers off the market so they wouldn't offend anyone.

Two lessons here:

1. The symbol did look like the words for Allah, so it was apparent that someone had obviously been trying to pull a fast one, and

2. If people found the symbol highly offensive, then accept that fact and change it.

My point is, the red crescent (BTW, the Muslim equivalent to our Red Cross is their Red Crescent organization) along with the grove of trees located in the gap of the crescent is way too similar to the Muslim star and crescent to be a purely accidental coincidence. And it sure as hell is highly offensive to a lot of observers.

This will be a national monument to the Flight 93 heroes.

Change it.

 

 
#239 PETN Sandwich  9/10/2005 06:41AM PDT
 

#27 Pastorius

On your page you quote the PR, "He said that the crescent as a pure form (without intellectual context) was seen as an embacing image."

Above you say that "He said they used the crescent as a pure form, whose meaning is to them an embrace."


The problem is, as architects, they know damn well that a crescent is a building facade that follows an arc and rarely exceeds a half circle (because if it did it would be called circular).

Also, architects are well educated and can usually afford a dictionary. They should know that crescent is a phase of the moon, or a shaped like it.

How ironic that they deliberately made a design based upon the birds-eye view of the muslim stylized crescent, claiming it to be "embracing"...

Any chance theses ass-hats truely believe that ROP shiite and that the poor muslims world-wide were the real victims of 9-11?

 

 
#240 Tinker  9/10/2005 06:43AM PDT
 

#232 big L

Well said.

 

 
#241 Tinker  9/10/2005 06:57AM PDT
 

The crescent and star in the gap shows up on the national flags of Algeria, Pakistan, Malaysia and Turkey. It's hard to believe that the architects not only created a crescent, but also planted a small grove of trees smack dab where the star is usually positioned.

I shy away from conspiracy theories, but this is just too weird a coincidence to dismiss as an accident.

 

 
#242 jcm  9/10/2005 06:57AM PDT
 

I think we should drop these Blue Falcon "artist" in the Islamic Republic of Iran and seen how they enjoy the "embrace of the crescent."

If they survive the experience of a "tolerant" Islamic regime they might reconsiderd their choice of emblems.

 

 
#243 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  9/10/2005 07:02AM PDT
 

#7 Idiot Liberal

Democrats are failures as they have all single-handedly ruined the black family in America with their will-defeating welfare schemes that keep people corralled and poor.

 

 
#244 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs  9/10/2005 07:02AM PDT
 

All that's missing is a giant star.

 

 
#245 Baldy  9/10/2005 07:06AM PDT
 

It would be nice if someone besides Rev McCrae is quoted in the press as opposed to this. He is fairly well-known in the area for sponsoring continuing protests at the Casa Nova, a gay bar in/near Jennerstown, IIRC. I went to a counter-protest of him a while back, to support the gay bar. They were besieged day & nightr by this Rev, and later the KKK. They eventually had to shut down. Driving home, we had a police escort, which then sped off, and a concrete block was thrown at the bus. This after shots were fired at the bar, patrons were followed home (including a good friend of mine). It was an UGLY scene.

He also calls Mardi Gras revelers "drunken Catholic whoremongers." It doesn't matter their intent, it doesn't even matter what some/all of the families think. This was an attack on America.

 

 
#246 American Infidel  9/10/2005 07:07AM PDT
 

#244 Free Speech Is Only For über-Libs

All that's missing is a giant star.

You see that little grove of trees?!?
It is in the perfect location of the star or so it was said somewhere...

 

 
#247 Baldy  9/10/2005 07:10AM PDT
 

How come the crescent isn't an Islamic symbol now, but it was when Jonny Hart, "BC" comic illustratot, had the outhouse strip a few years back?

 

 
#248 genard  9/10/2005 07:12AM PDT
 

There are some famous public art pieces where the artist mocks his donors, the Lipchitz "Government of the People" which depicts a ringlet of naked contortionists in a daisy chain, who, when seen in silhouette, are a clenched fist raised against the tower of Philadelpia City Hall, or the five story Picasso "Portrait of a Woman" which is really an image of a baboon.

I don't think the crescent image is an intentional slam. Reading the article about the Murdocks' intent I think they are simply oblivious to the Islamic resonance. Their crescent is the soppy, touchy feely goo of the wind chime tinkling tree hugger. The maple cresent more than likely represents their own symbology rather than something so evident as a reference to Islam.

But that reference does occur to you and me and the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world. For that reason it should be rejected.

 

 
#249 tigger2005  9/10/2005 07:12AM PDT
 

My letter to Paul Murdoch:

Dear Mr. Murdoch,

I'm sure that in designing a memorial for the brave heroes of Flight 93, you did not mean to evoke a symbol if Islam, the ideology that inspired the murder of these brave Americans. However, that is exactly what your "crescent of embrace" does. Even if you say, "That's not what it's MEANT to symbolize," people will see it that way--Including other Islamics like Mohammad Atta and Bin Laden. They will see the symbol of their hateful, supremacist ideology worked into the scene of their greatest crime (so far). Unintentionally or not, your design insults the memory of the Flight 93 heroes just as surely as would a giant swastika at the site of Auschwitz.

Please, please withdraw your design. We need something that not only memorializes the heroes but shows us their courage and inspires us to believe that we, too, will not cower in the face of terror, but will stand tall and fight back like they did, covering ourselves with glory and honor.

 

 
#250 wanumba  9/10/2005 07:20AM PDT
 

#241 Tinker

Don't forget Mauritania...

 

 
#251 jcm  9/10/2005 07:34AM PDT
 

My letter to my congressional delegation--

Words fail me at the to describe the revulsion, and disgust I felt when I saw the planned design for the Flight 93 memorial.

http://www.flight93m...

The winning submission is one of the most insulting things that I have ever seen in my life. A central component is a crescent of what appear to be red maples. “Sacred Ground” is centered at the opening of the crescent.

A red crescent with a star centered at opening is the symbol of Islam.

9/11 was committed in the name of Islam.

To include these elements in this memorial is an outrage beyond description. It is so obvious and beyond the pale of propriety that it is impossible for the submitter (I cannot call such a foul person an artist or designer) not to have intentionally incorporate these elements in the proposed desecration of sacred ground.

This memorial must not be built. The memorial commission should be disbanded. Any group that would select this grotesque display has neither the sensitivity or artist sensibilities to be involved in the process.

A fitting memorial would honor the lives of the passengers and crew of Flight 93. And also celebrate the spirit of the passengers as they strove to reclaim the aircraft and save untold numbers of lives on the ground.

Sincerely

 

 
#252 mich-again  9/10/2005 07:35AM PDT
 

243 Free Speech..

That was right on the mark. I attended WSU in Detroit and still drive through the city each morning on my way to work. It is truly a disgrace the way the once proud city has slipped into 3rd world status.

Every layer of City and County Government has been completely dominated by the DemocRAT machine my entire lifetime. Every program and initiative to rebuild the city has failed, prompting the ignorant civic leaders to pump even more and more cash into them. Every homeless person, abandoned house, and illiterate high schooler is blamed on the nearest Republican.

Its obvious to me after seeing it first hand that the Democrat machine needs the permanent underclass to stay destitute, ignorant, and desperate. They are easier to lead around that way, and comprise the most loyal voting bloc, even though their political loyalty enslaves them.

 

 
#253 Guy_Philly  9/10/2005 07:47AM PDT
 

I participated on the memorial design submission because I felt very moved to do so. On September 11, 2001, I was teaching a class at a local college, about half an hour from the Flight 93 crash site. Surprisingly, my design contained no crescents. Coincidently, it was not selected as a finalist either. Although I thought my design was very good, I understand that everyone who participated by submitting designs probably felt their design was the best. It was a cathartic experience to put so much thought and effort into the design, and moving beyond words to visit the unadulterated crash site. I encourage everyone to visit the site before any memorial is constructed.

I like the chapel with the wind chimes in the selected design. The truth of the matter is it was the lease ugly of the finalists if we can get past the inclusion of a crescent in the design. Truthfully, I don't think there is any hidden meaning in this crescent, but I do think it is a cruel twist of irony that should somehow be corrected.

 

 
#254 jrdroll  9/10/2005 08:01AM PDT
 

#247 baldy

11/21/2003: CAIR Goes Ballistic Over B.C., Dr. Laura

LGF is such a great reference manual on Islam.

 

 
#255 blackorchid  9/10/2005 08:08AM PDT
 

Don't overthink artists, people. They aren't that deep.

See Maia's comments halfway down on this post. . .

I'm a Small Minded Bigot

 

 
#256 Cognito Primoris  9/10/2005 08:15AM PDT
 

What's the sentence for Destruction of a National Park/Monument/Watzit? Oh, and Conspiracy to the former?

/just wondering

 

 
#257 bluemerle  9/10/2005 08:37AM PDT
 

It's not MY geography. That's the way they pray from North America - to the north east.

Whether to pray towards the North East or South East from points in North America is actually a controversy within the faith. Also here, and excerpt from here:

If you look at a standard flat map of the world, you notice that New York is north of the 40th parallel, while Mecca is south of the 22nd parallel. Therefore the local qibla must be approximately east by southeast, right? Wrong. The computer and most Muslim authorities agree that the qibla in North America is to the northeast, ranging from 56.3 degrees for Washington, D.C., to 23.7 degrees for Los Angeles.


Geography notwithstanding, the qibla is to the North East in Penn. (see recent example of qibla calculated for http://www.islamicit...">Philadelphia

Using another quibla calculator given the crash site coordinates, the quibla at the time of the crash was a little over 55 degrees E from the north.

 

 
#258 TS  9/10/2005 08:39AM PDT
 

They knew the crescent would cause a backlash:

"The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That's why, in their recommendations, they wrote: "Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as 'the circle or arc,' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography."
http://www.post-gaze...

So the question becomes, if they knew this crescent represented Islam why did they still use it?!

 

 
#259 bluemerle  9/10/2005 08:41AM PDT
 

#193 - Mike C - Google gible from North America.

or see #257.

 

 
#260 bluemerle  9/10/2005 08:44AM PDT
 

#216

See #257. The most common qibla is to the north east. If you don't like the geography, take it up with the Islamic faith.

 

 
#261 Grobe  9/10/2005 09:10AM PDT
 

http://www.heathenwo...

I think I know where this architect got his idea from!

 

 
#262 stoj  9/10/2005 09:36AM PDT
 

I don't understand how anyone could find this design appropriate after seeing several of the schematic representations. This design would be OK with me if it were for anything OTHER than a memorial to those killed in the name of Islam.

And as for the crescent being "part of architectural vocabulary" where no one group has ownership of it, that is an irrelevant half-truth. A crescent, of course, is a shape. So is a cross, so is a swastika. But they are SYMBOLS that have significant meaning to multiple groups of people. To state otherwise is dishonest and deceiving.

If this were the design for a park in Detroit or San Diego, fine. But it is not. The folks who hate us wouldn't notice that. But you can bet they will be laughing their asses off when they see that a memorial to those killed by Islamic terrorists is also a symbol of Islam.

 

 
#263 bluemerle  9/10/2005 09:40AM PDT
 

Ok, here's a picture.

This site allows you to calculate the quibla from the US and provides a little diagram of the qibla direction.

I overlayed that picture on the memorial site.

Shoot an arrow on the bow of the crescent and it follows the path of the qibla.





Characters left:









Please click the 'post' button only once!

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And remember: the Preview button is your friend!









 

 
#264 CDRSalamander  9/10/2005 09:44AM PDT
 

261

Awww come on shipmate. If you are going to steal my links, at least give credit..... ;)

http://cdrsalamander...

 

 
#265 bluemerle  9/10/2005 09:48AM PDT
 

about #263

If that is just an accident, in the words of someone cooler than me, that is really freaky, man.

Given the other islamic associations, its unfortunate that the angle of the from the crash site crescent is canted directly on the qibla.

 

 
#266 pioneer1/11  9/10/2005 10:03AM PDT
 

Why not Two giant columns of clear miracle age plastic diverging at 20 degrees from perpendicular forming the letter 'V'. Embedded in the plastic (like an incect in a belt buckle) , up to 1.3 billion skulls.

 

 
#267 leftover54  9/10/2005 10:19AM PDT
 

#45 Pastorius

Maybe a different approach:

"Why even bother constructing this ? It will
be for naught. Within 6 months it will be destroyed.
You must understand the simple logic of what I'm
saying, right ?".

**Disclaimer**

Not that I would advocate destroying great artwork...that would be illegal. Just sayin'.

 

 
#268 iamspartacus  9/10/2005 10:24AM PDT
 

Don't just post here, write to the designer at...

paul@paulmurdocharchitects.com

This is what I wrote:


I know that with art nothing is random. All is planned.

Inspired? yes... I can see that. Even in a back handed way I can see how this red crescent can act as a perverse reminder of the genesis for the fanaticism that has killed so many Americans.

Perhaps this will be sour reminder, invoking anger. Perhaps this is your desire.

Another wrote to you how this crescent may be analogous to a swastika design being incorporated into an Auschwitz memorial. I concur with this thought.

As it stands now, however, the crescent looms over those who should be honored. The talons of the crescent hover ominously around the entire memorial, mocking the dead and evoking grief for friend and family.

The American heroes that lost their lives on flight 93 should be honored by having triumphed over the crescent.

I would rather see a design that aroused deep rumblings of inspiration. A design that honored those that first fought back against the crescent, that overcame the crescent.

 

 
#269 leftover54  9/10/2005 10:38AM PDT
 

Do we know anything about the architect who designed it and whether he/she has an unsavory agenda?

gee, do ya think ? :-)

Beamer is rolling in his grave.


How about a SNDT ? Toast to Todd Beamer ?
I don't drink but would make an exception in this case.

And then the famous last words: "Are you guys ready? Let's roll."

If this (link) doesn't bring a tear to your eye...

 

 
#270 Banagor  9/10/2005 10:41AM PDT
 

I emailed them. I think everyone should.

I'm still outraged. This really sent me over the frigging edge. I am so sick and tired of this PC BS.

 

 
#271 Etaoin Shrdlu  9/10/2005 10:43AM PDT
 

Here is an azimuthal equidistant map of (most of) the world centered on the Flight 93 site. The green line is the great circle route to Mecca.

The direction of the memorial is ambiguous, but if you consider it determined by the "opening", it does indeed point to Mecca.

 

 
#272 leftover54  9/10/2005 10:58AM PDT
 

Save the pic to a local file and then open with photoshop etc.,rotate
image so the "crescent" can be viewed "properly". Very disturbing.

 

 
#273 Iron Fist  9/10/2005 10:58AM PDT
 

#270 Banagor,

I'm beyond outraged. I didn't think I could get any more angry. Guess I was wrong.

And tommorow is the fourth anniversary of 9-11. It is time that we force the rest of the country to understand that while we may not want to be at war with Islam, Islam is at war with us. The Muslims in Lodi told us that. Actions speak louder than words, and they practically screamed their support of terrorism.

 

 
#274 Banagor  9/10/2005 11:07AM PDT
 

#273 Iron Fist,

Oh, I'm definitely at war with Islam. I don't even care anymore. I don't care if people accuse me of being "Islamophobic". I'll tell you all something: I'm going to be publicly at war with Islam until they forcibly erase from that fetid book all the passages involving the requirement to kill Jews, enslave Christians, and rape women while beheading infidels.

At the risk of sounding repetitive: That is their fucking GOD telling them to do this - over and over again!

How can I not be at war with Islam? Islam wants to kill me. The Islamic GOD wants to kill me - and says so, and his god damned prophet as well. Now until they change that fucking shit, I'm at war with them. I'm at war with them the same way that I'm at war with Nazis. This has thrown me so far off the edge that I can't even express my outrage anymore. I hate them, and I hate the shit that they spew and worship. I don't care who it is, I don't care how "good" they are - I don't care how "good" a Nazi is either if he worships "kill all the Jews" in Mein Kampf either. Who the hell does?

 

 
#275 bluemerle  9/10/2005 11:13AM PDT
 

#271

I suppose one could look at it the other way 'round. Instead of the peak of the crescent pointing *towards* Mecca on the qibla, it's the EMBRACE of the Muslim world symbolized by the arms of the crescent reaching out to us from Mecca (on the line of the qibla.)

You know, all that "healing and bonding" stuff.

If the embrace coming from Mecca is just a serendipitous coincidence, that's too bad.
Because this is not the place for Islamic references or imagery.

It's in bad taste, horribly wrong; whatever the intent is has tremendous power to disturb and offend by its associations with the goals and actions of the hijackers.

This is not a spot where I want to make peace with the muslim world, I want to honor the persons who fought and died trying to fight those who would convert the world by force.

 

 
#276 Who Watches the Watchmen?  9/10/2005 11:17AM PDT
 

"Progressives" are traitors.

 

 
#277 Veiled-Chameleon  9/10/2005 11:18AM PDT
 

It's a fitting memorial...to the hijackers.

 

 
#278 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 11:41AM PDT
 

#273 etaoin shrdlu and others

I did the same thing. I must say, es, your diagram is far more elegant.

The Qubla clearly bisects the crescent, at least as far as we assume basic accuracy of the map used. Could this be a coincidence?

I think not.

This is the designer titled "Crescent of Embrace. What does its orientation tell us about what is embraced? If it would be symbolic of the earth or our nation "embracing" the heroes of Flight 93, wouldn't the logical orientation be along the flight path of the flight at the time of impact?

A USA Today diagram shows the plane to have been flying on an ESE course from the west. Shouldn't the crescent "embrace" along that path?

Or, if not, aren't there 356 other azimuths that could be used (assuming orientation along an integer compass point)? Why does the "embrace" just happen to be be on the line of the Qubla?

This is not a "Crescent of Embrace," it is a fucking CRESCENT OF SUBMISSION and I will not rest today until I send my thoughts to everyone I think might be in a position to do something.


D. Edgren

 

 
#279 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 11:43AM PDT
 

Oh, and Banagor (#274)

What you said, in spades. Thank you.


D. Edgren

 

 
#280 biff  9/10/2005 11:44AM PDT
 

15 Megan 9/9/2005 08:43PM PDT
"Let's build the world's biggest toilet in Mecca."

How about the world's biggest mirror?

 

 
#281 pioneer1/11  9/10/2005 11:46AM PDT
 

#274
I second.

 

 
#282 Banagor  9/10/2005 11:56AM PDT
 

#279, #281,

Thanks. Well, I wrote more on my site than I wanted to write here at the risk of pissing off a lot of people. But then, come to think of it, I don't much care about that either anymore.

I'm furious. I really am. I don't want that filthy symbol on our land saying "You should be killed because you don't believe in me".

What utter trash.

 

 
#283 PETN Sandwich  9/10/2005 11:58AM PDT
 

bluemerle & Etaoin Shrdlu,

Nice map work guys.

Note the small cluster of tress towards the SW, where the star would be. I have read that the star represents the five pillers of islam and/or the five daily prayers.

Note that at the cluster of trees we have park feature #18 - the "Sacred Ground Family Entry".


When the "magnificient nineteen" families visit their memorial, as they enter, they will be properly orientated for prayers.

 

 
#284 PETN Sandwich  9/10/2005 12:02PM PDT
 

Also at the "star",

item #9, "Family Overlook Moundwith Seating"
item #21, "Seating for Families"

 

 
#285 The Bruce  9/10/2005 12:10PM PDT
 

"The jurors recognized there could be some backlash because of the crescent. That's why, in their recommendations, they wrote: "Consider the interpretation and impact of words within the context of this event. The crescent should be referred to as 'the circle or arc,' or other words that are not tied to specific religious iconography." http://www.post-gaze....

So the question becomes, if they knew this crescent represented Islam why did they still use it?!
---------------------

A combination of stupidity, intimidation by other jurors, and a desire for revenge on the part of yet other jurors.

But what rankles me is that both Governor Tom Ridge and General Tommy Franks did not see this for what it plainly is and put a stop to it the moment they knew what was going on. Their behavior is appalling for people who are seasoned leaders. Why did they turn into dhimmis?

Regardless, it is now up to us to stop this attack on the country by leftwing Fifth Columnists and their allies. If all else fails, I assume that the so-called memorial will not stand for long.

 

 
#286 gunjam  9/10/2005 12:43PM PDT
 

#270 Banagor 9/10/2005 10:41AM PDT

I'm still outraged. This really sent me over the frigging edge. I am so sick and tired of this PC BS.

I think you size it up beautifully for all of us.

I have also posted on this matter.

Ban Crosses on Federal Land: Built Muslim Crescents Instead!

 

 
#287 zombie  9/10/2005 12:55PM PDT
 

#271 Etaoin Shrdlu

Here is an azimuthal equidistant map of (most of) the world centered on the Flight 93 site. The green line is the great circle route to Mecca.

Etaoin Shrdlu -- great job! I have added a link to your map from the zombietime page. I hope your image-hosting service doesn't get overloaded and take the image offline. Everyone needs to see that map!

 

 
#288 Baldy  9/10/2005 01:01PM PDT
 

I am OK with the crescent, if it's a crescent submerged in urine. If it wasn't disrespectful of Christianity when Anderes Serrano did it, then it should be OK in this matter.

 

 
#289 bluemerle  9/10/2005 01:05PM PDT
 

D. Edgren

The north/south east/west axes of theGoogle map the of flight 93 crash site line up with the pdf. map of the memorial site.

That's three maps so far, so maybe the "piss poor geography" commenters will reconsider.

It's pretty clear that by accident or design, arms/talons of the crescent are reaching from Mecca along the qibla, and that at the peak of the crescent of trees points right back to mecca.

- and the "star" vistors will also be on the path of the qibla.

I wish they would please pick another design without these elements so directly associated with the 19 murdering cretins and their stated goals.

 

 
#290 Iron Fist  9/10/2005 01:25PM PDT
 

#274 Banagor,

I'm with you brother. We've been being warned over and over about the dreadded "Arab Street". They best fear the American street. The fucking pro-surrender L³eft and the weak-kneed Republicans need to keep that in mind as well. This memorial to the hijackers cannot be permitted.

 

 
#291 Etaoin Shrdlu  9/10/2005 01:26PM PDT
 

Slightly clearer, labelled diagram:
Proposed: Flight 93 Memorial Crescent facing Mecca

 

 
#292 Rayra  9/10/2005 01:30PM PDT
 

#189 JustMyView 9/10/2005 01:06AM PDT

I'll say this again just in case no one is listening, this artist knows what he is putting in, and he knows the symboligy of it all. I am 99.9% sure of this largely because I know what I'm putting into a drawing, if I get a request for an unknonw thing, I research it..

Symboligy? The language use here is on a par w/ the thinking in this thread. Truly off the deep end.

here's another asswipe, one who chose to drop in a non sequitur condemnation of America for Slavery, stupid enough to think it's f'n opinion counts for anything.

 

 
#293 Rayra  9/10/2005 01:31PM PDT
 

#193 Mike C. 9/10/2005 01:29AM PDT
RE # 192

I see up above that somebody is saying the crescent is 'pointing' northeast and that's towards Mecca. That's piss-poor geography - Mecca would be to the southeast from anyplace in PA.

As much and as far as you routinely travel, you ought to have a clue about Great Circle Routes AND the Qibla has already been mentioned more than once in explanation.

 

 
#294 Canadhimmis  9/10/2005 01:31PM PDT
 

# 285 The Bruce,

If all else fails, I assume that the so-called memorial will not stand for long.

Yes! Even if this fifth column design is approved.....this.will.not.stand.

 

 
#295 Rayra  9/10/2005 01:34PM PDT
 

#199 Mike C. 9/10/2005 01:47AM PDT
# 198 Dom

Undecided ? I know there's continental drift, but I doubt if the direction from the crash site to Mecca changes according to the date and time of day. From anywhere in PA, Mecca is to the southeast.

Damn, man, 3-4 posts still hammering away about something you are grossly mistaken about. The World isn't a f'n Mercator Projection.

 

 
#296 biff  9/10/2005 01:38PM PDT
 

Post Gazette article

But Tom Sokolowski, the director of the Andy Warhol Museum, and one of the Stage II jury members, said that claim is "asinine."

"If the families of the 40 people who were killed felt this was an appropriate symbol to honor their loved ones, then I think he is delusional," he said. "To take this small-minded, bigoted view is disgusting and repellent."

So, maybe we're a little off the mark. Maybe we should rethink our position if people like the director of the Andy Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh (see photo link) are this certain that we are delusional, small-minded, and bigoted. Maybe... wait one minute... have you looked at that picture?

Sokoloski

 

 
#297 plutosdad  9/10/2005 01:50PM PDT
 

#54 liberality wrote


Live up the tempest in a teacup about this while you still can. The statute of limitations on using 9/11 for your purposes is about up.

Really? Vietnam ended 30 years ago, and you lefties still aren't over it, and still use it to abuse our troops, the police, our foreign policy, and everyone else.

So by using your standard of behavior, we've got a good 26 years to go. But unlike you, we don't abuse victims and those who sacrifice for us for our own political ends.

 

 
#298 Guy_Philly  9/10/2005 02:04PM PDT
 

When the initial meetings occured to figure out what surviving members, and America in general, wanted for a memorial, here are the responses (the numbers in brackets represent the # of respondents with that answer; I *think* there were less than 200 people there, but the overwhelming theme is very evident, and ignored - NOTE: nobody saw it fitting to have a place that faces mecca):

The Memorial is important because:

· Remember; never forget [154]
· Sacrifice; gave their lives to save others; save our nation [144]
· Commemorate; honor [98]
· Heroes; heroic actions; leaders, not victims [89]
· Educate the present; educate future generations [57]
· Bravery; courage [52]
· Fought back as a group; resisted terrorism; resolve of the American people not to lay down; took action [49]
· Freedom; protection of our freedom; value of freedom [41]
· American spirit; what America is all about; what is best about America [35]
· A physical place where people can visit, share, and connect [33]
· Milestone in history; turning point in history; worst evil day in American history; pivotal event [28]
· Provide a place for the families [28]
· Symbols of true patriotism; renewed sense of patriotism; pride in our country [25]
· Show respect; reverence [25]
· Mark the final resting place; cemetery; sacred ground; hallowed ground [22]
· A place to find peace, quiet, serenity; solemnity; for prayer; to calm the soul [22]
· Ordinary people who performed extraordinary actions; citizen-soldiers [21]
· Selflessness; unselfish acts [18]
· Impact on America; changed forever; life changing [15]
· A place for reflection [15]
· First battle against terrorism; first Americans as fighting force against acts of war [13]

NOTE THAT WHEN IT GETS DOWN TO THE SINGLE DIGITS, MOONBATS EMERGE:

· Anti-discrimination; acceptance of diversity [3]

THIS WHOLE PAGE IS VERY ILLUMINATING:

http://www.nasites.c...

 

 
#299 Guy_Philly  9/10/2005 02:10PM PDT
 

More regarding "important idea concept":

Most important ideas or concepts:

· Sacrifice; loss of life [94]
· Heroism [57]
· Sacred ground; hallowed ground; holy ground; cemetery; final resting place [56]
· Remember; never forget [54]
· Honor; pay tribute [51]
· Patriotism [49]
· Tell their stories; know them as individuals; the essence of who they were; celebrate their life and death [46]
· Ordinary citizens, extraordinary actions; citizen soldiers [46]
· Freedom; liberty; democracy [42]
· Educate the public and future generations [38]
· Courage [37]
· Bravery [29]
· Unity; solidarity; harmony [26]
· Fought back; took action [25]
· Saved lives [22]
· American spirit; the best of America; the heart of America [17]
· Prayer; faith [17]
· First battle again terrorism; first response to war [13]
· Saved Washington, the nation, the world [13]
· Ordinary people can overcome situations through teamwork; brotherhood of man regardless of those trying to destroy the idea [12]
· Rural aspect of site; remoteness [12]
· Be better prepared; vigilant; a wake-up call; terrorism is real; we are not immune to attacks [12]
· Tragedy can happen at any time; the brevity and preciousness of life [11]
· History of our involvement in international affairs that placed us as the prime target that day; global awareness; understand what will prevent this from happening again to eliminate terrorism [10]
· Historical event; a part of history [10]
· Moving on; going forward; new challenges; our country rebuilds [10]
· Strength of our country; strength of the passengers and crew [9]
· Good versus evil; victory over evil; victory of light over darkness; good prevails [9]
· The power of humanity; the goodness of humanity; the human spirit [8]
· Individuals can make a difference [7]
· Link with the World Trade Center and Pentagon [7]
· Impact on America; impact on individual lives [6]
· Acknowledge support of community [6]
· Commitment and resolve of passengers and crew [5]
· Could have been you or me [5]
· What would I have done? [5]
· The land once was a place of laughter; fun; was worked with loving hands [5]
· It is a battlefield [5]
· Freedom is not free [4]
· They had a choice [4]
· Honor rescue and recovery people [4]
· Total contribution of all 40 passengers and crew [3]
· Innocence of passengers and crew [3]
· Humanitarians; service to a greater good [3]
· God is in control [3]
· Inspire you to be a better citizen, better person [3]
· Anti-discrimination; acceptance of diversity [3]

http://www.nasites.c...

 

 
#300 PSGInfinity  9/10/2005 02:33PM PDT
 

Here's a link for the final five design candidates (including the winner).

 

 
#301 norar  9/10/2005 02:37PM PDT
 

#155 zombie

I'm becoming more and more convinced that the architects and the jury simply NEVER NOTICED that they were building a memorial to Islam. Incredible as it may seem, I have yet to uncover any intentional villainy on the part of the designers or the deciders.

Well, this speak loads about "the designers or the deciders", people that we would expect to be much more aware about the forms, symbolism and their impact than general public, especially when designing a national monument.

 

 
#302 Ferris Bueller  9/10/2005 02:40PM PDT
 

Maybe the point's been made already... but why doesn't the Moderate Muslim Majority object to putting a symbol of Islam on the site of an act of Islamist Terror... given that they otherwise get so pissy when anyone tries to link Islam and terror?

 

 
#303 Ojoe  9/10/2005 03:25PM PDT
 

I am am architect. I say this design is treason.

 

 
#304 khamr  9/10/2005 04:09PM PDT
 

So the fucking thing does face mecca...

That is hard to explain away as the fartist being ignorant in what he was doing, really hard.

The Turkish flag also has a star in it, is the small grove of trees in the design proportionate with it?

I’ll leave that to the photoshop pros.

Great page Zombie, would love to see a Turkish flag superimposed over a site layout w/ the grove of trees.

http://www.zombietim...

 

 
#305 jrdroll  9/10/2005 04:26PM PDT
 

Just include the message visible from 40,000 feet: "The Devil Made Me Do It"

 

 
#306 bluemerle  9/10/2005 04:52PM PDT
 

Rg left this comment on my blog, asked me to post this for him:

Please note in the LGF comment section for me please, that the Tower of Voices at the entrance to the Flight 93 Memorial is symbolic of the Call to Prayer Towers at the entrances of Mosques around the World.

Another coincidence, I suppose. Any rules about placement of call-to-prayer towers that would make it even more coincidental? I don't know much about them.

 

 
#307 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 05:03PM PDT
 

Whether it was unintentional on the part of the designer, or not, here's a little test for he/she/they...

Will you step forward, right now, and say the equivalent of

gosh, I'm/we're really sorry, we had no intention to align the memorial in a way that offends. We'd be happy to realign the design to the flight path of Fight 93 at impact. And, by the way, we disown our use of the crescent reference, because we now understand how inappropriate it was.

?

?

[do I hear crickets chirping?]

[do I bet I'll be hearing them for quite a while?]

I never connected to Bruce Cockburn's "If I Had a Rocket Launcher" until I read this thread. Cochran (despite "Lovers in a Dangerous Time, which is a great tune) always struck me as one more poorly informed artiste poseur of the Barbra Streisand/Alec Baldwin mode. Now I stand corrected.

If I had a rocket launcher I'd be programming in the Qibla azimuth from Wasilla, Alaska as we speak.

It's time to win the war against Islam the old fashion way (pace Lloyd Bridges)...

First one to die...loses!


D. Edgren

 

 
#308 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 05:23PM PDT
 

I never connected to Bruce Cockburn's "If I Had a Rocket Launcher" until I read this thread. Cochran (despite "Lovers in a Dangerous Time, which is a great tune) always struck me...

Should've been Cockburn each time...sorry, Bruce.


D. Edgren

 

 
#309 PSGInfinity  9/10/2005 05:37PM PDT
 

It's well past official:

Charles, Zombie, and all the rest - YOU ROCK!

Thank You!

 

 
#310 khamr  9/10/2005 05:59PM PDT
 

I suppose if a million monkeys designed a bazzilion memorials, eventually one would be all of:

red/green
a crescent
excactly proportional to several islamic country flags
and....wait for it.....align itself with mecca

You catch my drift.

At this point he really needs to refute the assersion that he used islam as an inspiration and potentionaly an islamic flag as a template, which is of course a nauseating thought.

/crickets

imagine that 'memorial' with throngs of muslims in prayer, of course all facing their moon symbol, neauseating, that's what it inspires in me Paul, you dipshit.

 

 
#311 rosh  9/10/2005 06:01PM PDT
 

Has this been mentioned? "The Flight that Fought Back" tomorrow on Discovery Channel

 

 
#312 Mafia Princess  9/10/2005 06:25PM PDT
 

I'm not sure how many of us went out to the PA Post-Gazette website to read the interview, but I've read it and found myself in more disbelief than before I read it.

Can these people really be so clueless?!?

The following selective excerpts paint a sadly disturbing picture of those involved, and the shear stupidity of the committee that awarded the prize to these individuals. It is hard to believe them, and that the design is an innocent coincidence.

Judge for yourselves. [apologies if someone has posted these article comments already]

The winning designers, Paul and Milena Murdoch of Los Angeles, called being selected "an incredible honor."


The idea of the Crescent of Embrace, Murdoch said, is to be a gesture of healing and bonding. The crescent marks the edge of the land, which will remain largely untouched.

"It's simple and yet it's complex," said Dorothy Garcia, whose husband, Andy, died in the crash. "The void that's there speaks so loudly to the heroism of these 40 souls."

One of the important attributes of the winning design, Murdoch said, is that it allows the memorial to continually grow and change. The maple trees that create the crescent will be planted at just 15 or 20 feet tall. They won't reach maturity for 40 or 50 years.

"It will be open and evolving as long as it's there," he said. "Our memorial is not about offering explanation for what happened, but to allow people to come to terms with it."

The Murdochs wanted to ensure the tranquility and serenity of the landscape. They also noted, though, the rawness of the site. There is constant wind, and in the winter, blinding snows are common.

"The first impulse was using some type of the land form," Murdoch said. "We always wanted to use that to [our] advantage, instead of trying to fight it."

From the beginning, said Milena Murdoch, 46, the focus for them was on the crash site, which many refer to as sacred ground.

She talks wistfully of a grove of hemlock trees behind the ground that withstood the impact of the crash.

"There was something unexplained about that place," Paul Murdoch added. "It's like being in a cathedral."

 

 
#313 baltodog  9/10/2005 06:29PM PDT
 

This is really sinister, scary, and enraging.

For many of the reasons already noted in the previous posts, I have a hard time believing that the design features were mere coincidences.

While the Park Service and the "jury" or whatever may have had the wool pulled over their eyes, this architect-cum-artiste Murdoch has some explaining to do. In the meantime, the Park Service and the jury might benefit from some of the enlightened observations here; perhaps they can still pull the plug on this arrogant shit-head's abomination.

 

 
#314 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 06:32PM PDT
 

Paul and Milena Murdoch

Useful idiots...

or snarky fucktards.

Read this whole thread. IT IS IMPORTANT.


D. Edgren

 

 
#315 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 06:45PM PDT
 

Hey, khamr

Just like in the first thread, today, you nailed it for me:

I suppose if a million monkeys designed a bazzilion memorials...

The Murdochs knew exactly what they were doing. The thing would get built, then there would have been the "tell-all" interview on PBS where they would 'fess up to their real multi-culti motivation.

This thing must not get built. I'm ready to lay down in front of a bulldozer, if necessary. I guess my 60s (in high school, supported Nixon and the war in Viet Nam) are coming 40 years late- but this is not going to happen if I can do anything to stop it.


D. Edgren

 

 
#316 PETN Sandwich  9/10/2005 06:57PM PDT
 

#312

From the beginning, said Milena Murdoch, 46, the focus for them was on the crash site, which many refer to as sacred ground.

Odd that's they chose to put it off centerline...

"There was something unexplained about that place," Paul Murdoch added. "It's like being in a cathedral."

Or a mosque...

 

 
#317 Mafia Princess  9/10/2005 07:01PM PDT
 

Perhaps we should invite the family members of those who died on Flight 93 to read LGF and the two threads we've had on this subject, because they obviously don't get it either.

As the black cloak that had hidden the winner was removed, a collective gasp came from those gathered, who then rose to their feet to applaud.

In the front row, three family members --a woman who lost her mother, a woman who lost her husband and a woman who lost her brother -- leaned into each other, in a show of love and support.

"It's powerful but understated," said Kiki Homer, whose brother, LeRoy W. Homer Jr., was co-pilot on the plane that crashed after passengers rebelled against terrorist hijackers. "It's beautifully simple.

 

 
#318 Ojoe  9/10/2005 07:32PM PDT
 

It would be easy to orient the urinals and toilets of a new building toward mecca.

 

 
#319 MisterSnitch!  9/10/2005 08:04PM PDT
 

Slightly off-topic, but (I think) appropriate considering the date: There's a real lack of 'appropriate' 9/11 memorials. We've put our own 5 minute video memorial online. No burning buildings, no rubble, no explosions, no speeches, no screeches, no Bin Laden, no bodies. (No kidding.) Just a remembrance of some people whose lives were cut short through no fault of their own, with poignant candid snapshots from their lives, and music.

 

 
#320 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 08:05PM PDT
 

Do the Feds own the memorial site yet?

Does the county or township where the memorial site is located have zoning or other requirements for permits and approvals?

My recollection is that federal ownership pretty much trumps local land use controls, but it would still be a great statement by local officials to say no to this plan.

Put it in the same category with p0rn dealers and toxic waste storage facilities or something.


D. Edgren

 

 
#321 Mafia Princess  9/10/2005 08:09PM PDT
 

#319 MisterSnitch!

Lovely. Thank you for sharing it.

 

 
#322 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/10/2005 08:09PM PDT
 

#318 Ojoe

We have to replace out septic tank and leach field this summer. We will make sure when we lay out the new installation that each flush properly observes the Qibla.

#319 MisterSnitch!

Thanks for your efforts. Very touching, and a true memorial to that horrible day.


D. Edgren

 

 
#323 khamr  9/10/2005 09:42PM PDT
 

Speak up Paul. Tell me you were unfamiliar:

-that the crescent is a symbol of islam
-with the turkish and tunisian flags
-that red is a favorite islamic color, along with green
-and in which direction a visiting muslim would face for prayer were he visiting your site

Then tell me that while utterly coincidental, you find the unintentional theme inappropriate and are no longer offering your design.

Not gonna happen.

I think you need to design a "Crescent of Reality", you prideless asshole.

 

 
#324 Baldy  9/11/2005 03:32AM PDT
 

I don't know why some here think this is no big deal. I DON'T CARE that the family members supposedly like this, or that it may have been unintentional. I am sick of liberals and their stupid, namby-pamby "art." Besides the crescent, this thing is a bunch of ho-hum. It should mean something. It should say WHY this place was important. I am really disappointed in the people who designed & chose this thing. Give me a giant eagle, with a bronze plaque underneath.

 

 
#325 SpiritOf1683  9/11/2005 04:14AM PDT
 

In one word: disgusting. What next? Will they erect a statue of Bin Laden, or plonk a memory plaque with the names of the 19 hijackers there?

Grrrrrrrr.

 

 
#326 BlackOrchid  9/11/2005 04:42AM PDT
 

Thanks for that link, #300 PSGInfinity. I actually like Disturbed Harmony and (F)light very much. Especially the first.

They can easily just remove this selection, pick one of the others, and end the controversy.

 

 
#327 dgbellak  9/11/2005 07:55AM PDT
 

How do you know it's an Islamic red crescent, Charles? It could be a Christian Coalition red crescent.

Found this LGF link intially through Jesus' General, which looked like it started with "littlegreenfootballs.com" yet went elsewhere. You dare accuse kos of such blatant misdirection? You are a dishonest buffoon, Charles, as are the rest of the LGFers for jumping on ridiculous, knee-jerk reaction.

 

 
#328 TalkinKamel  9/11/2005 08:02AM PDT
 

#327 dgbellak

In other words---"HOW DARE YOU EVIL RIGHT-WING JESUSLAND FREAKS POINT OUT FACTS WHICH MAKE US UNCOMFORTABLE?"

(Read the thread, dgbellak, and look at the actual evidence the lizardoids present. And the cross, not the red crescent, is the symbol most people associate with Christianity, no matter how many Christian groups may have used a big red C sometimes.

And the crescent is the symbol of Islam.)

/Charles, any way we can get a better species of troll around here?

 

 
#329 Montaigne's Cat  9/11/2005 08:53AM PDT
 

The significance of September 8th:

Charles' link goes to something dated September 8, which is an important date in Islamic history and in the history of the crescent, the Battle of Kulikovo:

This is from Nicholas Zernov's book The Russians and their Church, from 1945:

Since the conversion of the Tartars to Mahometanism at the beginning of the fourteenth century, their benevolent attitude to the Church had changed to a hostile one. Russia's defeat would therefore mean the masacre of the population, the profanation of the churches, the suppression of Christianity.
On September 8th, 1380, the two armies met at last. No battle in Russian history can be compared with that of Kulikovo Pole. Here occurred the clash between two irreconcilable powers. Four hundred thousand nomads, with their camels and horses and INSPIRED BY THE SIGHT OF THE CRESCENT, faced a much smaller army of Russians, gathered under the eight-pointed Eastern Cross. Kulikovo Pole occupies a place in history similar to that of the Battle of Poitiers (732), when France saved the West from Mahometan invasion; or that of the fatal defeat of Kosovo in 1389, which marked the beginning of the five-centuries-long Moslem domination over the Christians of the Balkans. At Kulikovo Pole the advance of the Mahometans was arrested; Russia was to remain a Christian country.

 

 
#330 Guy_Philly  9/11/2005 09:40AM PDT
 

#329

Well, there you have it ... the crescent isn't all that inspirational if it cannot inspire a huge bunch of nomads crush a much smaller group of Christians .... let's drop the cresecent shape for the F93 Memorial and use the Cross.

[is it true that one could hear the battle cry, "let's roll" coming from the Russian Christians?]

 

 
#331 baltodog  9/11/2005 10:09AM PDT
 

I haven't seen/heard one damn thing about this issue on MSM; anybody?

 

 
#332 Guy_Philly  9/11/2005 10:50AM PDT
 

#331

Well, if LGF lets it die, it will truly die and go away. But Michelle Malkin did mention it on her site, and therefore may make it to Fox News. What happens from there depends on whether MSM *has* to do it because people are talking and concerned. Sometimes MSM has to be dragged into covering things. It is too bad the crescent was not discovered before this time -- it makes it more difficult to change at this point (even though no ground is broken yet). It would take people admitting they were using very flawed judgement.

 

 
#333 Powderfinger  9/11/2005 11:19AM PDT
 

#327 dumbass

That's a half circle, not a crescent. Did you graduate kindergarten?

 

 
#334 Psyduck  9/11/2005 12:04PM PDT
 

Charles,

I am a little puzzled with this "reference" to Islam.

surely you can't support the idea that design cannot be influenced by other cultures, and to discriminate would mean the end of freedom of expression Americans hold so dear.

I don't mean to drag you or others here into a deep seeded debate, but I have to disagree with the stance that this object couldn't be a crescent, reference to Islam, or anything else the artist had in mind.

I am sure you posted this in an effort to have a debate, but it is demented to make some association that we can never include some kind of Islamic imagery in our culture. It is even further insanity to say that we should censor based on the fact that we are at war with Islam. Perhaps we should tear down every structure in America based on the idea that we have been smited by almost every European culture we encountered?

Should we clearly define "American" architecture, and destroy New York and Chicago because they were influenced by Mees Vandero. Next stop all of the structures built by Greene and Greene for entertaining Japanese influence.

I understand you are making the reference that this might be some reward to the enmy, or that a memorial should not gratify the enemy in any way. I get it.

However, I have to say, can we honestly say we can defeat our enemy, and preserve our way of life if we cannibalize freedom of speech in order to do so?

 

 
#335 Powderfinger  9/11/2005 12:47PM PDT
 

Psyduck, this isn't about banishing the crescent from our culture. It's about the use of that particular symbol on the spot where the hereoes of Flight 93 died in battle with Islamic terrorists.

It's about this memorial. It isn't about freedom of speech, it's about 40 people who were murdered by Islamic fanatics. It's like incorporating Waco references into the Murrah Building site.

It doesn't belong there.

 

 
#336 TalkinKamel  9/11/2005 02:10PM PDT
 

#335 Powderfinger

You make some good points, Powder, and I'd like to add my own two-cent's worth;

1. Yes, Psyduck, architecture borrows from many cultures---but in this particular case, it seems in extremely bad taste to borrow something from the culture which was responsible for the deaths of the people being memorialized, doncha think?

2. And. . .

The symbolism is all wrong. The name of the memorial is "Crescent of embrace" or something like that, but a crescent, or half-circle shape, is menacing, resembling a weapon, or a pair of pinchers, not a pair of embracing arms. If these guys were really trying to get across the idea of love, harmony, embrace, blah, blah, I think they'd've chosen a less harsh design.

I think this L.A. Architecture firm is playing a little joke on the country (while showing where their allegiance truly lies.)

/I also find it disquieting that there is, allegedly, a black rock wall planned for the memorial, as well as a "tower of voices"---why a tower? To me, the design is too similar to the towers for the call to prayer, built next to mosques---not to mention that the whole monument layout looks too much like the flag of Turkey, or Tunisia.

As I said, a little joke. . .

 

 
#337 Psyduck  9/11/2005 02:43PM PDT
 

It's about this memorial. It isn't about freedom of speech, it's about 40 people who were murdered by Islamic fanatics. It's like incorporating Waco references into the Murrah Building site.

No, I don't agree with you at all Powderfinger. this is about that. you are endorsing an idea that many people in this country signed onto a dotted lines and picked up arms to defed against.

The Viet Nam memorial was not the most appropriate design choice by some when it was first introduced. The people made it the most memorable after they endorsed it by showing up and crying, leaving objects, and making it come to life.

The more "politically correct" sculpture that was a figurative design is the lesser known of the two commissions. I hesitate to say you would probably been the person to endorse the latter in that period of time.

/I also find it disquieting that there is, allegedly, a black rock wall planned for the memorial, as well as a "tower of voices"---why a tower? To me, the design is too similar to the towers for the call to prayer, built next to mosques---not to mention that the whole monument layout looks too much like the flag of Turkey, or Tunisia.

Well you had better get to work tearing down a great many structures in the United States if this is your stance. I can point out literally hundreds of instances where Islam is the influence in achitecture in the United States. Some from our most famous architects.

Then again you had better get to work protesting Byzantine influenced architecture and get to the source.

This is a pretty moot point. The intended design will go through and the conversations we have about it is most probably the desired intent of the architect.

Truly flawed thought process, TalkinKamel. You sound lost in paranoia that anyone finds Sept. 11 "a little joke." why would a piece such as this, that is to transform the architect into immortality be a "joke" to them.

Any even greter flaw is that you would think that he or she would be "on the side" of global terrorists by designing a red crescent.

Fear and mind control are the tactics enemies use to defeat you. A clean mind and deep analytical mind are the weapons that defeat this tactic.

 

 
#338 TalkinKamel  9/11/2005 04:16PM PDT
 

#337 Psyduck

B********t and argle-bargle are the tactics pinheads like you use, to try and convince us all that everything is fine, just fine, nothing to see here, and that pile of manure is actually a big dish of chocolate ice cream! (Never mind the smell!)

I'm not buying it, any of it. The crescent is the symbol of Islam, just as the cross is the symbol of Christianity. As other lizardoids have pointed out, using it for a memorial to people who died fighting Islam on 9/11 is kinda like using a swastika to memorialize the Jews killed in the Shoah.

1. As for the architects---I can hardly believe they're unaware of the crescent's symbolism, or what that design actually looks like! If it's not a joke, they're being incredibly insensitive---or, maybe they're hoping that, somebody, Moslems will make a pilgrimage there, to honor the glorious four terrorists, who died in that crash. Or, maybe as somebody else suggested, they wanted to go on PBS, announce what they'd done, and state that they hoped it would generate "dialogue" (or some mushy PC thing like that.) As you half-suggested yourself, maybe they had some silly idea that it would be good for people to discuss the crescent---completely forgetting the fact the monuments are to memorialize the fallen, not spark "dialogue" (whatever that means.)

Whatever their intent, I can hardly believe this memorial was intended to honor the victims of flight 93.

2. "Fear and mind control are the tactics enemies use to defeat you. A clean mind and deep analytical mind are the weapons that defeat this tactic."

Heh, heh, heh, the Talkin Kamel's mind is pure as the driven snow, ducky-boy! Unlike some others I could mention, whose brains seem full of sh---shaving cream, heh, heh, heh.

Oh, brother! Seriously, Psyduck, what are you talking about? What "enemies" are you burbling about here, and why are they supposedly out to defeat clean, deep, and analytical minds? (I know you're not talking about the Islamofacists, who actually attacked us on 9/11, so what do you mean?) And why shouldn't Americans be a bit paranoid after 9/11?

And why should I want to boycott Christian Byzantine architecture---which, by the way, the Moslems copied from them for their own buildings.

 

 
#339 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/11/2005 04:30PM PDT
 

This thread continues here.

Again, this is important.


D. Edgren

 

 
#340 Psyduck  9/11/2005 05:44PM PDT
 

And why should I want to boycott Christian Byzantine architecture---which, by the way, the Moslems copied from them for their own buildings.

wow, you actually got it.

Pretty choice words comparing an Islamic crescent to a swastika.

As you half-suggested yourself, maybe they had some silly idea that it would be good for people to discuss the crescent---completely forgetting the fact the monuments are to memorialize the fallen, not spark "dialogue" (whatever that means.)

Almost all modern art is composed in an effort to invoke thought in it's viewers. When you talk about the those thoughts it is what the goal of this artist.

Your opinion about the architect is quite conspiratorial in my eyes, but okay. I don't really believe that, and if the arcitecture firm must answer to criticsm, I hope the can explain themselves.

On that note, at least your not saying people are taking this lightly anymore.

 

 
#341 TalkinKamel  9/11/2005 05:58PM PDT
 

"Almost all modern art is composed in an effort to invoke thought in it's viewers. When you talk about the those thoughts it is what the goal of this artist."

If that was their goal, I suspect they're going to get an earful from the viewers who've seen this, and who have a lot of thoughts about it! And I doubt it's going to be the sort of reaction they were counting on, heh, heh, heh. . .

(And, to reiterate, shouldn't the goal of a monument be to memorialize something, not to "spark discussion" or whatever? Again, if this was the plan, the designers ignored the heroes of Flight 93, in order to push their own personal agenda.)

I was not comparing the Crescent to a swastika (so, you do admit it's a symbol of Islam?) The people on flight 93 died fighting Islamofacists. Therefore, to put an Islamic symbol on their memorial would be as tasteless as putting a Nazi symbol on a memorial to the Jews. Or, to put it another way, if, by some strange quirk of fact, the heroes of Flight 93 had died fighting Byzantine terrorists (if you can imagine such a thing), then I think it would have been wrong to build a monument resembling, in any way, shape or form a Byzantine church, no matter how beautiful the design, or how often it has been used in other parts of the world, etc.

If you can't get this, if you really can't understand why planting, on a fallen warrior's grave the symbol of the enemies who killed them, is a horrible thing to do, then I can't explain it to you.

As for the architects, yes, I think it's a real possibility that they might have planned this as some sort of blackly humourous joke against "Jesusland", the red states, whatever. I also think it might have been, as I stated above, a silly desire to "spark dialogue", or to be seen politically correct. Or they may just be dumb as rocks, and not have any idea about the symbolism of any religion, or crecscents, obolisks, crosses, squares, etc. (I find this difficult to believe, but it's a theory.)

What I don't think they were motivated by---and what should have been their greatest concern---was honoring the dead of Flight 93.

 

 
#342 TalkinKamel  9/11/2005 06:01PM PDT
 

Psyduck

Actually, take a look at today's thread, about the flight 93 memorial, and scroll down to pgsinfinity's Post #261:

He pretty much sums up what I think about the architect.

 

 
#343 Psyduck  9/11/2005 06:12PM PDT
 

I will make you a promise, TK.

I live in Los Angeles not too far from where this architect is. I will call his studio tommorrow and ask him to answer these criticisms.

If I can't get someone relevant on the phone, I will leave these threads in an email for the secretary to respond to.

You are making some very serious assertions, and I would want the right to defend myself.

I will offer that studio the chance.

 

 
#344 dgbellak  9/11/2005 06:45PM PDT
 

#333 Pullmyfinger

Actually, we're both wrong: it's a circle bisected by an invisible chord. God, we're idiots.

Hmm, let me see...is this a crescent? I guess I know where we'll invade next.

There's more out there than Christianity and Islam, you narrow-minded bigots, and crescents show up in all kinds of places. Why, I bet there was one in the sky last night.

The memorial is a partial ring of maple trees (red maple, granted, but even red maple will only be partly red, part of the year) covering the edge of the crash site. Perhaps you were hoping that the plane debris landed in a lovely pattern of stars and stripes, or that an image of the Virgin Mary was left scorched into the earth?

 

 
#345 D. Edgren (the Merciless Infidel)  9/11/2005 07:17PM PDT
 

#344 dgbellak

Oh, fuck you.

If the "ak" in your nic means you live in Alaska, c'mon over and I'll respond to your post in person.


D. Edgren

 

 
#346 ROPMA  9/11/2005 07:33PM PDT
 

testing

 

 
#347 Powderfinger  9/11/2005 10:38PM PDT
 

A clean mind and deep analytical mind are the weapons that defeat this tactic.

So, you're unarmed? This is not about freedom of speech. The 'artiste' can say any damned thing he likes, any time he like. That is his right.

Just as happened with the other 5 finalists, it isn't a freedom of speech issue if his design isn't built. This is not a sculpture in his backyard, this is a taxpayer funded property of the National Park Service.

We have freedom of speech too, you know. It's not just for leftists anymore.

 

 
#348 Powderfinger  9/11/2005 10:40PM PDT
 

#344 dumbass

Perhaps you were hoping that the plane debris landed in a lovely pattern of stars and stripes, or that an image of the Virgin Mary was left scorched into the earth?

Are you really stupid enough to think that the crescent outlines the debris field? Plane crashes are awfully fucking tidy in your world, aren't they?

Suck a nut.

 

 
#349 Son Of The Godfather  9/12/2005 12:46AM PDT
 

Good God.

Zombie's previous posting (#164) has crushed my last clinging defense that this was some sort of horrible design "accident".

No more of this "Maybe it wasn't intentional" bullshit.

Not only should this abomination not be built, I have very strong feelings about what should happen to the fuckwad designer (though I keep those in my own mind's lockbox, lest I be brought up on charges).

I can almost picture this smarmy little asshole having a good laugh with his latte and laptop at Starbucks, sharing pictures of his design to other "like-minded" leftist trash... Howling about how he put one over on the Flight 93 families. How fun it is to dupe ignorant Americans.

...Not this one.

SOTG - *Planning to plant additional trees to show a crescent being pissed on*

 

 
#350 TalkinKamel  9/12/2005 08:03AM PDT
 

#343 psyduck

Psyduck, I admire your energy---but please, spare yourself the trouble!

I am certain that the architect knows what is going on; even back when the monument was first unveiled, there were concerns that the crescent design would spark controversy (which may have been what he actually wanted.)

If you talk to him at this point, he's probably going to have some nice, made up story all ready, in order to soothe callers such as yourself, with the spin machine all set in place. Or you're going to be referred to his PR man. Or his secretary will tell you he's not in right now. Or you'll get the answering machine. As I said, I admire your initiative, but I'm afraid it will would just waste your precious time and energy! I thank you for the offer, but I think it would be futile.

And really, I'm not the only one raising these concerns! Look at the other posters on this thread, not to mention Michelle Malkin, Belmont Club, Dr. Sanity, and a score of others! This is all over the blogsphere!

 

 
#351 JackofTrades  9/14/2005 05:52PM PDT
 

The way I see it, there is a lot of talk here about desecrating the 'crescent' part of the monument (trees). A couple of posters in particular fight various forms of opposition based on, sadly, faulty data and poor assumptions. I think a reminder of a few facts that I have dug up in the past 24 hours might help them both...or maybe not.

By the way, I'm opposed to the desecration of any national monument (yes, it is a national monument and belongs to us all as a nation), however this crescent design does cause some temptation.

1. There are a hell of a lot more than 40 trees in this monument. I have gone through the architects' proposal in detail. The trees themselves have nothing to do with the people who died on Flight 93, other than as being part of the monument whole.

2. The pattern of the trees closely matches the symbol of the Islamic Crescent.

3. The crescent IS oriented towards Mecca. I have seen 3 independently done proofs of this now.

4. The only part of the monument whole that relates to the 40 who died is called the 'Tower of Voices', a structure containing 40 white windchimes. The design of this structure and symbolism is quite moving, really.

5. Crescents abount in the overall design, including crescents around said tower.

6. There is no doubt, from the actual architect's proposal and other comments made by him that the overall crescent design and orientation (and the design is as offensive as the orientation) are known and intentional, including any possible religious significance it may have.

7. To build the full crescent will actually require filling and building over a good bit of wetlands.

8. The actual 'Sacred Ground' is set aside, protected, and viewable, but fenced off with admittence onto it only to family members and for special ceremonies.

(This is appropriate, I think, but also the only bowing that should be made to it being 'THEIR' monument. That ground, I feel, is their monument. The rest, built to remember and protect is the nation's. We the people need to remember, reflect, and revere sacrifices made. Some who lost no family or friends in the attacks were still greatly wounded by them. All who lost no family or friend in the attacks need to reflect and remember. If we forget, we will fall victim again. In total, as a national monument, the voice of the people should be heard if that monument design is worse than insulting, and the crescent is.)

So those trees, far more than 40, have nothing to do with the passengers on Flight 93. I am opposed to desecrating national monuments, but my opposition to burning, cutting, buldozing, etc the trees has nothing to do their number or memorial significance. Then again, my opposition may be eroded some if the trees are actually PLANTED in such an insulting design.

-Note- apologies if any of this duplicate others or is out of time. I drafted this in the morning, about 300-400 posts ago.

 

 
#352 Dan Kauffman  9/15/2005 05:21PM PDT
 

344 dgbellak 9/11/2005 06:45PM PDT
#333 Pullmyfinger

Actually, we're both wrong: it's a circle bisected by an invisible chord. God, we're idiots.

**************************************** *****************
It is a Crescent because it's creator NAMED it the
Crescent of Embrace, and not due to any subjective labels by other partys.

I might add that the family members of the jury, asked that the name be changed to circle or arc to avoid any Islamic connotations.

Does it sound like they gave any consideration to their wishes?

 


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 frank says:

He was in a quandary...being devoured by the swirling cesspool of his own steaming desires...

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