Ian McKellen Unable to Suspend Disbelief While Reading the Bible


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Actor Ian McKellen, 66, shocked his Da Vinci Code costars during an interview with Matt Lauer on the Today show this morning. The film has inspired controversy from the Catholic sect, Opus Dei, which has asked that a disclaimer be added to the film to clearly delineate the movie as fictitious.
Broadcasting from the Cannes Film Festival, Lauer addressed the cast:

“People wanted this to say ‘Fiction fiction fiction!’ How would you have all felt if there was a disclaimer at the beginning of the movie? Would it have been okay with you?”

“I’ve often thought the Bible should have a disclaimer at the front saying ‘This is fiction.’” McKellen responded. “I mean walking on water? I mean, it takes an act of faith.”

McKellan went on to say he found the Bible “somewhat preachy” and called the ending “a bit of a downer.”

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  • The Da Vinci Code,
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    1. 3:47 pm Shocked Says:

      The bible needs a disclaimer????? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? I really don’t know what this world is coming to….

    2. 3:50 pm Squid Says:

      Awesome!!! I love this guy!!!!!!

    3. 4:00 pm Jacqueline Says:

      I love it !!! Believe what you want to believe but leave everyone else alone.

      I don’t care if it is space aliens, GOD, dog turds or J-Lo’s shoes. Faith of any kind can inspire or cause craziness.

      Let me live in mine and you can keep yours.

      Sir Ian you rock.

    4. 4:06 pm Tweet from Stvl, NC Says:

      Well US be sure to let Mckellen atheist-self he has losta legion of fans b/c whether you are born-again or not you should still believe in GOD!!!
      What is he talkin bout “walk on water” Jesus is GOD”S SON DUH!!! I don’t understand him but if you don’t want to lose 99.999% of your readership please don’t feature this man any more on website or in mag I don’t wanna read about non-believers EVEN Scientologists believe in a higher being, this man is clearly an atheist.

    5. 4:18 pm Hilarious Says:

      Hahahaha. Good stuff. I think Tweet needs to take a chill pill and realize why Ian said what he did. It is about time someone had a little bit of a sense of humor surrounding all of this madness! He is simply forcing people to realize how ridiculous all of this banning and boycotting is. Bottom line…sit back…take a deep breath Tweet, and get a sense of humor!

    6. 4:18 pm One Says:

      You have absolutely GOT to be kidding me???? A disclaimer on the Bible? Are you insane? The bible is the word of God that millions of people (including myself) try to follow. God and Jesus can do ANYTHING, including WALKING ON WATER!! The Bible is the “book of rules” if you will, that Christians are told to adhere to. This guy is out of his flippin mind and definitely on the fast track to the south… I will pray for him that he turns his beliefs the right way.

    7. 4:23 pm Jacqueline Says:

      Hey Tweeeet,
      If you really think 99.9% of US Magazine’s readership is spiritual…. You are doomed.

      It’s a G O S S I P magizine. Not a GODSHIP magazine.

      Doh !

    8. 4:24 pm Ellie from PA Says:

      I agree w/McKellen
      Bible,should have a disclaimer on cover. Live and let live, the Bible is just another fairy tale, like little red riding hood. I can’t wait to see the movie!

    9. 4:25 pm George Says:

      It’s called allegory.

      al·le·go·ry, n
      1: a visible symbol representing an abstract idea
      2: an expressive style that uses fictional characters and events to describe some subject by suggestive resemblances

      The Odyssey predates the Bible by about 600 years, but you don’t actually believe Circe turned Odysseus’ men into wild animals just b/c it’s an old book, do you?

    10. 4:26 pm Paige Says:

      Though I’m a Catholic, I do tend to agree with Sir Ian, that the bible does require you to have a leap of faith when reading it. Not only because of some stories in it, but also because it has been translated & re-translated for thousands of years.

      I’ve never taken the bible at face value, I still have my faith, and I still love Ian.

    11. 4:30 pm Tweet your dumb Says:

      This is a response to Tweet from Stvl, NC

      Who are you to critisize what someone else does or doesn’t believe in??!?! Not everyone believes in God. No one has any right to sit back and say “whether you are born-again or not you should still believe in GOD!!!” that’s crap!! Come on take your head out of your ass and realize people believe different things, and to fault someone who “might” not believe in God or Jesus is ridiculous. Why should others believe in something…because YOU say so?? Because YOU think that if you don’t believe in God your less of a human being. Frankly I am a Christian, and I found his comment more humorous then anything. Not everyone thinks the Bible is even factual. Do you know how many people I defend my beliefs with??? I don’t live in the Bible Belt or in a small baptist preaching town, so that may be why I defend God and the Bible more then people would think I have to. I live in Orange County, CA…a pretty republican place and believe me I’ve heard all the nice things people have to say when it comes to this subject. You need to open your mind and eyes and realize people DO NOT have to believe in God or Jesus…religious fanatics like you make me embarrased to be a Christian.

    12. 4:35 pm WOW! Says:

      World is coming to an end, because people don’t believe in HIM anymore, they believe in everything else but HIM!

      WOW!!! Clearly, the people have forgotten!!!!!

    13. 4:35 pm Believer Says:

      See you in Hell McKellen

    14. 5:06 pm Not Shocked Says:

      Sorry Shocked. For a lot of us, belief is just that, simply belief.

      And if we really paid attention and looked back through time, we would often and tragically see that “belief” has all too often been an excuse for causing harm to others.

      We would also see that the thing that has made the most positive difference thoughout human history is not belief, but observation and reason: scientifically, socially, politically.

    15. 5:06 pm Kirsten Says:

      What is wrong with being an atheist? Besides, being an athiest is not a fair label to slap onto someone who questions organized religion. Spirituality is deeply personal AND everyone has the right to believe WHATEVER they want…besides, haven’t we been told what to believe and how to act our whole lives by Christian “ideas”? We no longer need to use “God” to understand thunderstorms and scientific anomalies. I for one have a great deal of respect for people who dissent from the “majority”, which inherently silences the minority…Get with it people, this isn’t Communist China…or is it?

    16. 5:11 pm kalee Says:

      hahahaha….i’m sure A LOT of people agree with Ian!!! - love it when people speak thier minds!

    17. 5:26 pm TCA Says:

      I don’t know this guy, but I love him now! Go Ian!

    18. 5:26 pm Swissmiss Says:

      RE: Tweet from Stvl

      Since when is US Weekly a religious publication? If you want to read about “believers” then go read Christian Science Monitor or something. This is a gossip mag for CHRISTS sake…get a grip.

    19. 5:28 pm TCA Says:

      oh Tweet, get over it. Not everyone believes in God. They shouldn’t stop featuring him because YOU don’t want to read about him. And not everyone has their panties up in a bunch because someone criticized their precious Bible.

    20. 5:35 pm Marisa Says:

      He is entitled to state his opinion and I can respect it. I won’t stop reading a magazine just because I disagree with him. My beliefs are strong enough to listen to somebody elses beliefs.
      To each their own!

    21. 5:37 pm Larice Says:

      How about freedom of religion? including the right not to believe and to be an atheist. Everybody knows that if Jesus “walked on water”, it’s because there was sand and the water was not deep.

    22. 5:43 pm Cindy Says:

      Thank you for Ian! Everyone has a right to thier own opinion. Faith can inspire lots and it can inspire many. I think people should just leave it alone

    23. 5:45 pm Kate Says:

      Ian just got my vote. About time someone said perhaps the bible was written as a work of fiction.

    24. 5:48 pm Libby Says:

      Hey Tweet –
      Thanks for demonstrating that trademark “Christian” trait of peace, love and understanding. Do you think Jesus would have been so judgmental? Live and let live, my friend. Why don’t you put down your US Weekly and go work in a soup kitchen instead of worrying about what some actor thinks of the Bible. LOL It’s laughable.

    25. 5:50 pm MPS Says:

      Applause for Sir Ian!!!!! Thank goodness someone in a well-exposed arena has the guts to express his views/beliefs!!!

      I am NOT an athiest, but I do believe that the bible is like any other moral compass-type book (think Aesop’s fables). Just a tool to keep humans on the straight and narrow!!!

      YEAH for him…he has a new fan!!!!

    26. 5:58 pm Spooky Says:

      LoL He’s funny!

    27. 6:00 pm Lauren Says:

      “if you don’t want to lose 99.999%” come on seriously 99.9 percent trust me not that many people believe! I think that Ian is awesome! He gained a fan here!

    28. 6:00 pm elizabeth Says:

      uh, tweet…last time i checked, there was freedom of religion in this country and in england. that means that, yes, atheists are free to voice their opinions. you may believe that Jesus is God’s son, but that doesn’t mean that everybody needs to agree with you and keep silent on the matter. since you feel free to let us know what your beliefs are, that means the rest of us should feel free, too.


    29. 6:13 pm lovejoy Says:

      So, I think the bible was passed down and passed down and passed down. It is derogitory towards women and a lot of other groups. I DO think it needs a disclaimer. there are some VERY good stories in the bible, but that is what they are, mere stories. Some may be rue and others may just be inpirational. Jesus was a WONDERFUL man, he was the son of God. So too, am I his daughter.

    30. 6:22 pm campetunia Says:

      It’s a movie guys - difference of opinion. - IT’S A MOVIE!!!

    31. 6:32 pm loretta Says:

      For sure the bible should have a disclaimer.

    32. 6:37 pm ray Says:

      I was watching The Today Show when he said this, and he is my new hero. It’s about time someone spoke up about the religious fever in this country. It’s taking over EVERYTHING!

    33. 6:44 pm bonjovirocks Says:

      Yeah, and the higher being Scientologists believe in is a science fiction writer. And a BAD one at that. Go figure.

    34. 7:49 pm One Says:

      You know, I was thinking about this and this is my idea. I am not going to get my undies in a twist because some guy made some silly comment. My faith is strong enough so that I can listen to ANYBODY’s opinion. Even this guy. I have respect for EVERYBODY; regardless of their viewpoint. I just think it’s disappointing; that’s all.

    35. 8:02 pm conner Says:

      ian rocks!

    36. 8:16 pm T-Bag Says:

      I love Ian Mckellan! Finally someone in a position to get some publicity said what millions of us think everyday in response to the fundamentalist fervor that’s overtaken this country. Jesus was nothing more than your run of the mill mystic. The same as the buddha, the same as thousands of saddhus in india, the same as that kooky recluse down the street. He was able to see reality in a way that most of us can’t. It’s an accident of history that a religion was built around him. Ability to reach a mystical state of awareness doesn’t impart any abilities such as walking on water or raising the dead. These “miracles” attributed to jesus are the result of the overactive imaginations of the apostles. And as for the bible being the literal word of God? Don’t make me laugh! Gandalf is my hero!

    37. 9:33 pm docholly Says:

      The bible is a piece of literature like any novel.
      I guess that people who read books aren’t subjective to alternate theories but people who go to movies will be swayed to belived this alternative scenerio presented by the Da Vinci Code. This the need for the “church” to want a disclaimer.

      Right on Sir Ian!!

    38. 10:35 pm tiff Says:

      maybe people thought jesus was walking on water because it was really ice he was walking on and back then they were too stupid to understand that =)

      yay sir ian! =D

    39. 12:45 am Darlene Says:

      This man is a very sad soul.

    40. 1:45 am June Says:

      Do your homework people…Da Vinci Code is nothing more than a good story based on assumptions of Jesus (AD 26) made just 200 hundred years ago. If there is any disclaimer…it’s on this fictitious read. Get empowered by fact: The Da Vinci Code: A Quest For Answers -By:Josh McDowell.

    41. 5:40 am anissa Says:

      I really REALLY hope he was just kidding! otherwise that would just no be right!

    42. 7:09 am Faith Says:

      To those of you who believe in HIM (and even those who don’t) - this is all laid out in the bible. It says do not fall for ‘popular’ religions (i.e. Scientology)and that there will be great chaos and unbelieving before HIS return. So, for the faithful, keep believeing. And for all the Ian McKellan’s out there, have fun with your choice not to believe, but know that you eternal afterlife is not guaranteed.

    43. 9:17 am beautiful_one Says:

      The Bible was written by MAN, it is an account of what someone believes to have happened, that is what the gospels are all about. The apsotles each gave their version of events, because each was different and so they all interpreted things differently. I am a Catholic, and I happen to love Sir Ian’s work, him as a person I don’t know, because I have never met him. But he is intitled to his own beliefs, just like all of us are. Remember back in the days of the Bible, people did not believe Jesus was the son of God, and if I had lived back then and soneone came to me and said this guy walked on water, I too would say that it is a fairy tale. For that matter if it were to happen now I say the same. I think that you should not judge, because NO ONE knows what awaits us.

    44. 9:33 am Slappy Jack Says:

      Go Ian!

    45. 9:43 am Andrea Says:

      In my own personal opinion, the Bible is 100% true. There were no “tricks” for the Lord’s miracles. I don’t force my beliefs on anyone. I’m not going to see “The Da Vinci Code” just because I don’t want to. I’m not going to judge those who watch it. I don’t think there should be a disclaimer on the Bible because myself and many many others know it’s true. But I also don’t think there should be a disclaimer on the move. A person can use their own judgement to decide if they want to watch it. I don’t criticize other people’s beliefs and I don’t expect others to criticize mine. As for Ian, he can say what he wants to say. He is responsible for himself and I’m responsible for myself.

    46. 10:12 am Shocked Says:

      You people are sad….I agree you can beleive what you want, it’s your choice. But maybe you’ll realize what you shoulda done when you’re all in HELL!

    47. 10:13 am Tweet from Stvl, NC Says:

      SOMEBODY had to get this blog rolling huh? With al these intelligent open-minded people expressing their opinions it is GREAT! Nothing like a little controversy to ignite a fire!
      GOD BLESS EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    48. 10:45 am Ed Says:

      Ian should denounce the NeoCons for causing 9-11 and demand they be brought to The Hague and tried by the War Crimes Tribunal.

    49. 10:51 am Lou Lou Says:

      Pssssst! All you believers out there - wanna know something else? McKellen’s a…h-o-m-o-s-e-x-u-a-l…

      Hey, did your heads just explode? Ha ha. Hope so.

    50. 10:59 am Shocked Says:

      I’m sure someone’s going to fire back at that comment…but I didn’t mean it in a hateful way. I’m just stating the truth that someday you will see. But it is your choice to believe what you want so I’m not hating on anyone for having a different belief…because America is about freedom.

    51. 11:03 am June Says:

      bonjovirocks - I couldn’t stop laughing when I read your comment. Do you think that Scientologists believe that L.Ron Hubbard is their god? Because they don’t - they don’t believe he is a god, a version of Jesus, or even some sort of prophet. And to say he was a science fiction writer ….period….. is proof that you don’t know half of what he did. He was a humanitarian, a photographer, a naval captain, a writer, a videographer, a pilot, a musician, etc, etc, etc. Scientologists believe in a Supreme Being - and it isn’t L.Ron Hubbard - Scientologists believe that LRH was a great friend to mankind.

    52. 12:02 pm noname Says:

      I am truely shocked by the ignorance of the majority here. How on earth can you people honestly believe that the Bible is a book of “mere stories”?

      You deny God and reject His word because you can’t handle the guilt. God sent His son to this earth to save our pathetic lives, and to save us from eternity in hell (which is also real) And what do we give Him in return, we spit in His face, and turn Him into a joke.

      You can all continue on with your ranting and raving, but it will never change the truth. The Bible is truth because it was “God Breathed”…those of you that don’t understand that phrase may want to look it up. (it’s in the Bible)

      You might not believe in Him now, but you will one day (hopefully sooner than later) You can reject Him all you want, but He always has and always will love you.

    53. 12:06 pm Jerem Says:

      Ian, I love ya.

    54. 12:24 pm proudathiest Says:

      I am more than a little disturbed at the comments by the Christians saying that it is ridiculous to put a disclaimer of fiction on the Bible. Well, would you be just as appalled if they were to put such a disclaimer on say, the Bhagavada Gita? The Koran? Surely to YOU those works are fiction. To me, ALL religious texts are fiction.

      Talk about hatred, non-acceptance, and ignorance. In this day and age, more than ever, I am proud not to be associated with the likes of Christians, who are bordering on becoming terrorists.

    55. 12:37 pm magneto Says:

      Hockey players walk on water every day!

      Seriously, the Bible shouldn’t come with a disclaimer.

      People who believe it should.

    56. 12:51 pm Stacie Says:

      I think it’ds great that in this day and age someone can stand and say what they believe. I’m not a religious person, but I have my beliefs. I also question th ebible because it was written by man. Plain and simple. The Bible is a man’s VERSION of how and what happened. And there are so many different versions, that it really does make you wonder if any of it is true. ANd what parts are true. But that doesn’t make me a bad person or one that will go to hell. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and beliefs and should aways feel free to express them. Such as Sir Ian. Too many people are afraid to stand and say what they mean rather than what everyone thinks they should say. I read the Davinci Code and it really opened my eyes to the possibility of it being true. That’s the problem with the fanatics: they don’t see anything than what they are forced to. Open your eyes, minds and hearts people and you may be surprised to see what you discover.

    57. 1:19 pm beautiful_one Says:

      Lou Lou, everyone knows that Sir Ian is a homosexual. He has been open and vocal about this aspect of his life for years. If most of you Christians have a problem with the Da Vinci Code, then don’t read it. But I believe that God gave us all free will, and intellect that will assist us in know what is right and what is wrong. Writers have been making all sorts of assumptions about Jesus, God and the Bible for years. Works that have been listed as non-fiction, taught at universities, been debated among scholars. But there has never been such an uproar before, the book is fiction for goodness sakes. When I read it, not once did Dan Brown say that it is real. It leave you to wonder, if there is not more to the story than people are letting on. People need to start questioning, and asking their God for enlightenment. And maybe, just maybe the world won’t be as it is now.

    58. 1:24 pm another atheist Says:

      Christians are as bad as fundie Muslims, rioting over cartoons. Religion is becoming more trouble than it is worth. Get real! Learn the truth! There are no such things as gods. When you’re ready to join us here in the real world, living the one life you actually have, let us know. We would be glad to enjoy your company right here and right now, alive and happy, if only you weren’t so crazy.

    59. 1:24 pm Susan Says:

      Don’t get angry or judge non believers, Don’t bicker back and forth with non believers. Just pray for them.

    60. 1:43 pm Shocked Says:

      Noname…very well said. It’s sad that a lot of people make jokes about Christianity. There are a lot of things about God that can’t be explained…but that’s what faith is all about. I wish all of you could feel the presence of God and then you might understand. A lot of you just don’t even know because you probably weren’t brought up in Christian homes, so you really don’t know any better. I guess all we Christians can do is pray for your souls.

    61. 1:54 pm JessicaD Says:

      People, realize what he’s saying. He’s tired of the BS that’s surrounding this. It’s a BOOK first and then a MOVIE.

      Dan Brown wrote fiction. He’s never claimed anything more. Your stupid for making a big deal of this.

      I believe in God and I love what Brown has done. I’m surprised you haven’t heard protests about Angels and Demons. In that book Brown was able to weave together something I’ve always believed in, the fact that science and religion are one in the same. If you use science you can see the language of God.

      The fact is though, people seem to forget that in the Bible there is a HUGE gap between Jesus being a child and suddenly he’s a grown up. What happened in that time in between? No one can really say.

      If you all think a work a fiction is threatening to your faith you need to re-evaluate yourselves. Your faith must not be that strong. It’s a movie. It’s not disrespectful.

      Actually, why would it be so bad if Jesus married and had a child? He was a man. Yes, he was the son of God (as all men are also the sons of God) but why would that not be a part of God’s plan? I don’t understand why this would be so evil a thing.

      Half the people slamming this book and film don’t even know the story because they are automatically bashing it. Know of what you speak.

    62. 1:55 pm happyhumanist Says:

      LOL, I love when people say the Bible was “100% true” when parts of it are self-contradictory. Like, for instance, the two different creation stories, the several versions of the Ten Commandments, turning the other cheek or slaying the infidels, a vengeful or a forgiving god, take your pick… Sir Ian got it spot-on, the Bible is not only fiction, but dangerous, violence-and madness-inspiring if taken as true.

    63. 2:06 pm One Says:

      Wow. The comments on this forum, with the exception of a few, are very disappointing. I don’t understand for the life of me, how people as a whole can so easily turn away from the truth. Now don’t get me wrong. I respect all people regardless of their beliefs but it still saddens me to see God and the Bible taken so lightly.

      I have built my life’s foundation around the word of God and it’s disheartining to see so many questioning it’s validity today. I do not believe that the Bible is a book of made up stories and fairy tales. As a christian, I believe that the Bible is God’s word and I try my best to follow what it says because I believe that’s the right thing to do.

      I know that my faith is strong enough to sustain me through times of doubt such as this but it doesn’t make it any easier and it’s hurtful that people take it so lightly nowawdays.

      I also know that Satan walks among us daily under many different guises and if you ask me, this is probably one of them.

      For those of you that don’t believe; fine. That is your choice. For those of you that do, hold strong to your faith even in the face of ignorant comments made by someone that knows no better.

      The Bible needs NO disclaimer.

      Peace and Love to All…

    64. 2:09 pm anotheratheist Says:

      I live my life just like anyone else. If Christians are convinced I’m going to hell, fine. I don’t care. Let me worry about myself; you worry about yourselves.

      So the Bible is truth because it says so? In that case, please read my book about the shiny pink unicorns. They’re true because the book says so. You should accept it as truth because the book says to.

    65. 2:11 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      “They want to cure us… I say WE are the cure!” Sir Ian as Magneto.

    66. 2:35 pm B Says:

      @Ian McKellen: Well done for speaking your mind on a subject such as this even though it may stray from the usual politically/religiously correct nonsense we’re routinely spoon fed on a daily basis!

      @megneto: Perhaps both the bible and those who believe it should come with disclaimers.

    67. 4:35 pm BK Says:

      “Do not publish that man in your magazines or website any more, I do not want to read about disbeliefers”

      My, my, how did times change! Apparently smacking your hands firmly upon your ears, closing your eyes, shaking your head and going into a singsang of “lalalagoddititlalalagoddidit” just doesn’t cut it any more nowadays. Nope, for additional narrowing down of our merry little world of thinking, let’s actually remove all sources of disbelief! Hey, together with aformentioned closed eyes it should be a nice dual failsafe, no?

      Seriously, ever since this sorry little “fictional!!!” campaign started for The Code, I can’t help but think that we don’t need nearly as much paperbacks and frames saying “Warning: Should contain “fictional” as we do need foreheads reading “Warning: Should contain “brain.”

      It’s an effen movie already. Just keep your eyes closed.

      Anyway, mad

    68. 4:41 pm Larice Says:

      Doesn’t religion teach tolerance? It certainly doesn’t seem so from some comments coming from believers, religious persons, catholics, posted here. How can agnostics and atheists go to hell, if they don’t believe in it in the first place? Yes, it’s hard to realize we have come from nowhere and will go back to nowhere.

    69. 4:42 pm elizabeth Says:

      hey susan and shocked: i don’t need anyone’s prayers. i certainly respect your religion and your devotion to it, and i hope you are able to do the same. whatever happened to “love thy neighbor”?

      shocked: please don’t say that i “really don’t know any better”. that’s incredibly insulting. i actually WAS raised by a christian father who goes to church every week (my mother is jewish), but i simply chose my own beliefs. i know tons about christianity (i even majored in theology at college), but it simply isn’t right for me.

      susan: you say not to judge non-believers, but by praying for us, you ARE judging us. you are judging that we need your prayers to lead “good” lives. how about accepting that we are happy with our own beliefs?


    70. 5:20 pm Lisa Says:

      I will be praying for every single one of you on here that doubt the Bible and God. And no, I am not a fanatic. I am a believer in God and I am a christian. I simply try to do what is right and the right thing to do is pray for the ignorant and the ones that know no better so that they might one day come to know and truly love God for what he is and for what he has done. Peace.

    71. 6:22 pm surrounded by ignorance Says:

      McKellen responded. “I mean walking on water? I mean, it takes an act of faith.”

      Thats what it is…faith. Faith plus nothing. If it was physically in front of you…it’d be hard to disbelieve. Thats the point…its a choice of faith.

    72. 7:01 pm godisnature Says:

      Why are you “christians” so close minded? I wonder? Do you think that your “christianity” is the ONLY way to “heaven”? Christianity is a VERY young religion. Get over yourself. Can you just not live the way you want to live with out preaching on others. I am sometimes very embarrased of you guys. I think that Jesus is problaby broken-hearted at all of the judgements that are happening. Who is ANYONE to tell anyone else what to believe?

    73. 7:45 pm elizabeth Says:

      lisa: please don’t call me ignorant. i would never insult your beliefs; why do you feel the need to insult mine? half of my family is christian, and i respect them. to each his own. in turn, they respect me. why is that so difficult for you to understand?

    74. 9:06 pm BLR Says:

      Sir Ian McKellan, I’ve respected you and loved your work from afar for years. The simplicity of your truth, and your unwillingness to pander to idiocy in the form of fundamentalism increases my respect tenfold.

      I’m off to print warning stickers for the bibles at Barnes & Noble: “Warning - This work of fiction contains tales of gratuitous violence, homosexuality, incest, graphic sexual encounters, torture, child abuse, rape and murder. Do not sell to anyone under the age of 16 without parental consent. Known to inspire hatred, bigotry, and to perpetuate extreme ignorance.”

    75. 10:29 pm Mike Says:

      I understand why Ian said what he said. But it’s disappointing that crazy stories of things like walking on water would need a disclaimer. It goes against reason and common sense. People should be smarter than that.
      I just don’t see why people expect evidence for almost everything in life and then don’t expect the same level of evidence for religious stories. If anyone told you that they walked on water you would not believe it. I don’t see why some people are so quick to disregard their logic and believe everything the Bible says.

    76. 10:38 pm MPS Says:

      The “truth?” Seriously? According to those who blindly follow this (the bible) or any other piece of fiction. This is NOT coming from fear and guilt; it is coming from logic, reason, and research. Besides, what ‘god’ would want people to BLINDLY follow him based upon faith? Wouldn’t he/she/it want you to CHOOSE?

      Many of us were spoon-fed religion from birth, so we accept it whole-heartedly. I, for one, rejected it; it was full of contradictions…the teachings and the followers (pedophile priests, anyone? Nuns and fathers getting it on behind the scenes after repremanding us for our OWN human feelings??)..

      By the way, I’m not afraid of hell; I don’t believe in it…but by those who DO believe in it, aren’t YOU merely following ‘faith’ based upon fear??? Try to reason: what parent would commit his/her child to eternal damnation for mistakes? Not one I’d choose to follow, personally…

    77. 10:41 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      This Blog is really getting good! I think (therefore I am) the real reason the Church is upset about the movie is because it understands that the masses tend to believe the unbelievable. It worked for Hitler, Castro and Stalin. For example, mideveial preists told their flock when preists took Communion, the wine turned into blood… in the cup… Ta-da! Holy miracles in every church every Suday. Once the people demanded access to the Communion, they were told, “Well, it actually doesn’t turn into blood until you drink it… but it’s still a fine miracle just the same, huh?” Nowadays, it’s just a ritual, no blood involved, no miracle. I’ve always found the whole “I am the Messiah, eat me.” kind of freaky. Maybe it’s just me.

    78. 11:05 pm Frodo Says:

      I have accepted Ian McKellan as my Lord and Savior. Didn’t He die to save us from the Balrog? Didn’t he conquer death and return to Middle Earth?

      Well, it makes as much sense as that other faery tale.

    79. 11:10 pm Go team! Says:

      Ian McKellen is God. Stephen Colbert is his Son.

    80. 11:12 pm Reality Bites Says:

      I instinctively like McKellen as an actor, now I know why.

    81. 11:25 pm Jason Says:

      I have great pity and contempt for all who deny the divinity of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. He makes meatballs from the flesh of Jesus; in that respect I guess he’s not much different from Catholics. Eucharist, anyone? Nevertheless, your lack of faith in His Noodliness will not go unpunished, and when he strikes you down with His Noodly Appendage nobody will be there to lift you up from the spaghetti sauce of doom.

    82. 11:30 pm Guy Says:

      Not only should the buybull have a disclaimer that it is fiction - it should be X rated for all the violence and cruelty in it. It is a sick book written by a bunch of primitive savages. Anyone who thinks it is a textbook for morality, let alone biology or astronomy or anything else, should be locked up where they can’t hurt anyone.

      By the way, which is the more outlandish fiction? The idea that Jesus was an ordinary man who married a woman and had children? Or that he was born of a virgin impregnated by a god that was actually three gods, of which he himself was one?

    83. 11:51 pm Gillian Says:

      Today’s “BIBLE” (pending which version you choose to subscribe to - there are many) was translated and binded together from handwritten scrolls of old scribes generally centuries after the indidents occured. Not to mention it was translated from languages that we no longer speak in the same context. The Cathlic religon even includes 9 additional books. So which one is right. Do Christians just discount the other scribes. To tell me it is 100% true is NUTS ! Who picks and chooses what goes in.

      Nationa Geographic has a great new seris on Judas that all the right wing religios blowhards discount becuase it ruins a great villian. Every great story needs the absolute villian.

      The bible may just be some cool stories of amazing events and if you choose to believe that this presence goverens you and everybody today, hey to each thier own.

      Just don’t expect EVERYONE ELSE to subscirbe to the same thing. The bible to me is no different then a book of nursery rhymes. A bunch of different authors storytelling.

      Revelations is no differnet than Rock a bye baby. Scarry as stuff. Armegeddon and babies on a tree top.

    84. 11:59 pm Heather Says:

      I agree with him. We don’t know the truth and it could be fiction. I am not an atheist but am definitely agnostic. There is a difference.

    85. 12:17 am Kristine Says:

      Cripes, I wish that people would care about real things like global warming and genocide in Darfur instead of this tripe. The Da Vinci Code is fiction, and so is the Bible. It actually cheapens the poetry of the Bible for it to be taken literally, for people to weep for a literal Jesus being betrayed and crucified instead of seeing the allegorical parallels to our actions today. (How many crucifixions in Iraq at this point? Done in the name of this or that god? Betrayed with a kiss by the “support the troops” rah-rah hypocrites? When will we ever learn?)

      I applaud Ian McKellan’s statement and if these horrified Christians were really honest with themselves, they would admit that his disbelief makes them uncomfortable precisely because it awakens their own buried disbelief. Apparently these people need to be surrounded by fellow believers and cannot tolerate one dissenting opinion, or their faith crumbles and they react with fear. Why get so upset, unless deep down, it makes you doubt as well? (After all, I’m surrounded by Christianity all the live-long day, and while it’s annoying, it doesn’t make me insecure.) Well, try doubting for a change, just once. You might prefer it after a while. Resorting to the supernatural is a cop-out and, as I see it, an utter act of faithlessness toward nature, civilization, and knowledge.

    86. 12:36 am veeko Says:

      whats all the fuss about? We all know and believe that Jesus was not married.
      He may have even been Gay! All his disciples were only men. Ponder on that one for awhile. I once told a christian that “Allah” was the father of jesus. And boy there was fireworks. I guess he didn’t seem to understand that “Allah” means god in arabic! Grow up people. Stop this religious war. Believe what you want to believe and leave everybody else alone.

    87. 12:40 am brc Says:

      I’d like to believe in Superman, too. But the same amount of evidence exists for him as for the god of your choice, ancient or modern. You have to ask yourself–just how likely is it that someone made them all up? Pretty darn likely. If a universal mind exists, I doubt very much it cares whether you venerate it or not, or pray to it. It simply is. Or isn’t. No way for us to know. Unless you want to trust what a bunch of prehistoric people wrote whose only evidence is their claim “it’s all true! I promise!”

    88. 12:45 am Eric Says:

      Elisabeth, your right. I was also raised as a christian, but when I really started to think about what to believe in I found the the truth was perferable. I mean, the bible is so full of contradictions and gaps, you would have to be blind not to see the problems. And what about the people (you know real, living, greedy, pompus, egotistical people) who had complete control of your precious book for over a thousand years. Do you really belive it was never tampered with and still says exacally what your God intended. Way to go Ian.

      What really gets me is the fundamentalists out there praying for my soul. I don’t need your prayers. What we really need is a cure for your delusions and a way to get you to truely see the truth. The problem is, no matter how much evidence is presented to you, you will still say that I simply lack faith.

      I think a bumper sticker I saw the other day said it best “God, save me from your followers”

    89. 12:57 am Darlene Says:

      What I would like to know is why do people of other faiths and non-believers automatically believe that Christians hate them or gays etc? I know that for myself and my friends and family, we are all very understanding and tolerant of others beliefs or non-beliefs. It’s your soul to do with whatever you want with. God gave us free will and I choose to believe and my faith fills me. But I still think that Sir Ian is a sad soul to be so condemning of faith. That’s why it’s faith and it’s wonderful!

    90. 1:24 am Not American Says:

      Disclaimer: I am not an American, I have never been to America. I have got to say it is reassuring to see that Americans are not all corn fed christian morons. To all those atheists living under the heel of the christofascist regime over there …. emigrate. The rest of the world is ready and waiting for your expertise. In my country the political leaders of both major parties are atheists - surprisingly god has not intervened - you would love it here. I have many expat American friends, not a single one has any intention of returning.

    91. 2:50 am ccc Says:

      “The Bible is truth because it was “God Breathed”…those of you that don’t understand that phrase may want to look it up. (it’s in the Bible)”

      You know the bible is true because it says so in the bible?

      neato. well, you’ve sold me! Where do I sign?

    92. 2:57 am ccc Says:

      Incidentally, christians, do you really think Ian cares one whit how YOU feel about HIS beliefs? And why should he?

    93. 5:52 am So be it Says:

      Yep, surrounded by ignorance got it quite right.

      You believe without a valid reason, or you don’t believe without a valid reason.

      I believe without a valid reason in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

      PS: for some time I thought Ian was God. I say him doing dome great stuff with a staff and even grow a large beard. He was even sent back to earth from death, and went completely white!

    94. 5:57 am Karen Says:

      I love the people using the threat of hell. If I don’t believe in your god, why would I believe in your hell? Why would your imaginary hell motivate me in any way?

      I also love the people who believe that belief in god is an opinion - that I can choose to hold if I want. Not, mind you, that the notion of a god who will inflict pain and suffering on me if I believe in him and ever make a misstep is much of an incentive.

      And I feel very sorry for those who realize their faith is so weak that exposure to some British actor’s opinions is enough to threaten its existence.

    95. 6:14 am Danski Says:

      I’m glad to see this heathen religion being denounced as fiction. For years now, I’ve been following the Argos Catalogue as my Compendium of Truth, and have been spreading the holy word of the Breville Sandwich Toaster with his holy Removeable Crumb Tray. You might ask us why we believe this document. Well, first off, it’s so professionally printed! And it’s the first thing we found. May Andy, This Month’s Customer Service Representative of the Month, shine his love upon all of you.

      We are a small movement, constantly at war with those infidels who believe the lies published in the Sears Catalogue. With their chanting about their holy Three Piece Suite with Matching Footstool. Wearing their baggy pants. They’re all going to hell.

    96. 7:34 am me Says:

      Religious people are so weird. Nobody tells me what to do but my wife! lol.

    97. 7:43 am you are all weird Says:

      For crying out loud… we are alive, we die, it ends. There is no after life, there is no heaven, there is no hell. we are born, we live, we die.

      do what’s right while you are here to make that middle part (life) better for us all. it shouldn’t take a preachy book that threatens you to burn for ever in hell to get you to do that.

      I was raised catholic and never like the mournful attitude or threats of church… have sex before marriage, it’s a sin…. use the lord’s name in vain, it’s a sin…. yada yada yada…. whatever. try not to kill anyone and be nice to people and you’ll live happier. you don’t need god to tell you that.

    98. 9:20 am The Count Says:

      Without a doubt, everyone is entitled to one’s own opinion. Allow me to share mine with you.

      First off, in regards, to the Judeo/Christian/Muslim belief systems the only words I can think of are “snake oil salesman”. You buy into our religion today and do everything we tell you, and we’ll give you eternal life. What a DEAL!!! Almost everyone wants to live forever and some folks will even do anything to do so. Things like forking over cash they probably can’t afford to or even to the extreme of killing people in the name of their religion. Small problem with that… god isn’t coming down to sit on your (at least not to most people’s) shoulders and telling you what to do. Nope you’re getting that from other people who allegedly are better connected than you. Makes it rather convenient for the ones in charge… prolly why they call it blind-faith.

      No one has gone to heaven/paradise/etc. so that has to be taken in blind-faith as well. What a DEAL, you sell something for which there’s no chance of ever being proven right or wrong!!! And, that’s the main foundation of your religion, the main reason I read about for sticking with it. Seems like many of you are rather selfish since the eternal life part is all you care about. SHAME ON YOU.

      What about the wierdness within the branches of the Judeo line alone. Silly me, I thought it was about god… but no, it’s about how you worship him and what other additional baloney you have to put up with. It’s even more silly within the Christian branch. If you’re a Protestant Christian, then the Catholics Christians are pagans. If you’re a Baptist Protestant Christian, then the Calvinist Protestant Christians are godless… WHAAAAAT? When did it stop being about god and came down to what a bunch of folks (i.e., humans not god) said. Y’all have the same bibble, so what make one “holier than thou” when it comes to reading or interpreting it. SHAME ON YOU.

      And let’s not forget the other religions of the world, like Hindu, Buddhism, Shinto, etc. Sure are more of them than you… maybe they’re right and you’re wrong. Oh, I know, their books are works of fiction… seems might convenient if you ask me. SHAME ON YOU.

    99. 9:37 am barneymac Says:

      Sir Ian an atheist? I knew there was something I liked about him.

      Religions and their “holy” books have caused more misery, suffering and death than cancer, Aids, and TB. Religious belief is an affliction we would all do well without.

    100. 9:59 am ned flanders Says:

      Geez Louise, why all the hatin’ on atheists? Why do some of you people define a person’s “goodness” by whether he or she believes in a “higher being?” What did we ever do to you?

      Talk about bigotry - but I guess anti-atheism is the last acceptable prejudice, huh?

    101. 10:18 am GG Gordon Says:

      Perhaps some of these kind, loving and oh-so-tolerant “Christians” need a lesson about books. Some books are fiction some books are factual. This book was a work of fiction. Perhaps you Jesus lovers should declare a fatwa against Brown, like Khomeini did with Salmon Rushdie. I’m sure one of the Christians that blow up doctor’s offices to same embryos would love to get Brown in their sights. You can always bank on God Fearing Xtians to rum up a little hate and a lot of vituperation.

    102. 10:18 am Paul W. Says:

      I find it odd that some people assume atheists don’t know about Christianity, haven’t read the Bible, etc.

      I disbelieve in Christianity precisely because I have read the Bible. I find it amazing that anybody can take it seriously, given that it contradicts itself on many points, and condones genocide (e.g., of the Canaanites), slavery (in both OT & NT), etc. The big heroes of the OT were mostly genocidal barbarians. The God of the NT is more “loving” but inflicts infinite torture on many people like myself, for an honest difference of opinion.

      This is not just a matter of allegory or literalism. On many points, the Bible clearly means what it says quite seriously, and is contradictory and/or reprephensible. It’s largely bad fiction.

    103. 10:26 am bmkmd Says:

      Larice Says: Doesn’t religion teach tolerance?

      No, Larice. The Consitution and the first ammendment of our government teaches tolerance.

      Most religions teach that they know the truth and others are wrong…but we live in America, so we have to put up with others.

      And they can’t all be “true”, and it’s impossible to know which is the “true” one, so we compromised by forcing everyone to back off, and none to impose their view on the rest of us.

      It’s in America and other democracies with freedom of speech and religion that tolerance is valued, not in most religions.

    104. 2:16 pm Lisa Says:

      I am sorry if you felt that I offended or insulted you; that certainly was not my intention. I would like to clarify my statement. Webster’s Dictionary defines ignorant as “having or showing little or no knowledge”, “unaware”. I guess to me, people that do not believe in God and the Bible are ignorant; not by their own doing, perhaps maybe because they haven’t been touched by it yet in their own lives so therefore they are unaware (ignorant) of what God has done for them.

      I do respect and love all people regardless of what they believe and it is my right to hope that they will learn to love God and believe in his word. I am not going to judge anyone who doesn’t; judging others is not my job nor is it up to me. Saying that I believe someone to be ignorant is not a judgement; just an opinion.

      Somewhere on this forum, someone made the statement that we (christians) believe in God and the Bible simply because we were brought up by our parents to do so and while this may be the case with some people, with me it is not. When I was younger, I studied many other religious avenues including the LDS church, Buddhism, atheism, as well as many others. I, and I alone, decided what was right for me. I have read the Bible and I believe fully in the words contained therein. I think what people don’t understand is that when the Bible was written, times were vastly different than they are now so the Bible was written in the context of then, not now. I think that’s why people find it so confusing and conflicting. ANYBODY would be confused reading the Bible with all the convoluted language that it uses but it helps to pray to God to help you understand; at least that’s what I do. It’s worked so far.

      My faith is strong; certainly strong enough where I am not going to get all worried about what some actor has to say about the Bible. He is obviously not knowledgable about that which he speaks of.

      I wish all of you well no matter what it is that you believe and I hope you all live good lives. Bye all. Peace and Love.

    105. 2:38 pm P.L.W from S.C. Says:

      blah blah blah - I love whoever created me - i like the idea of jesus simply because it sounds good and makes me feel fuzzy inside. As for everything else who really cares….

      hat is “true” and “real” is that we are all living and breathing, have seen tyrants, death, war, birth, life all around us, we go to work etc - even the person that doesnt believe in certain things cant deny that at the end of the day if they kill, steal, lie…..somehow it all comes back from somewhere in the universe.

    106. 3:31 pm sharlotte lofton Says:

      Wow! My hat is off to “Guy Says” who said it just fine!

    107. 3:42 pm MJ Says:

      I just had to put in my two cents (for what they’re worth) - I am an unashamed believer and follower of Christ. I do not believe that putting a disclaimer on ANY book or movie is necessary. Seriously - are we going to go back and put a disclaimer on the great movies like Gone With the Wind, Psycho or Wizard of Oz? Of course they’re fiction! It is really up to each person to choose what they want to believe. It is also up to believers/followers of ANY faith to share their beliefs. I choose to follow the LORD and will do so until the day HE takes me home. One day, we’ll all answer for our actions and which GOD we elected to make our own. If I’m wrong…I’ll find out then. Until that day - I’ll worship only at the feet of Jesus.

    108. 4:03 pm Kristine Says:

      ” To all those atheists living under the heel of the christofascist regime over there …. emigrate… You would love it here.” Where, Not American? Let me know—if you’re talking England or France (wait—Tony Blair is not an atheist), I’ll sell my house and come! I speak French, German, some Spanish and some Somali. Problem is, I’m about to enter grad school.

      You’re kidding, right? Don’t you want some of us to stay in America and fight the good fight? Please come to visit America (especially Minneapolis) anytime.

    109. 4:08 pm elizabeth Says:


      But why would you hope that I will learn to love your God? I don’t hope that you change your religious views, so I’d really appreciate it if you left mine alone. It’s called “live and let live” or, rather, “believe and let believe.” I’m quite happy with my beliefs, thank you.

    110. 4:09 pm Sadie Says:

      Ian McKellen makes me smile. :) But an American movie star would never be able to get away with saying those things. *sigh*

    111. 4:21 pm FSM Says:

      Believer Says:

      May 17th, 2006 at 4:35 pm
      See you in Hell McKellen

      Which implies that Believer will be there to see him…pause and reflect.


      BTW: Scientology is a UFO cult (www.xenu.net)

    112. 5:19 pm Andrea Says:

      I am as civil as they come and make an effort to get along with anyone. I try not to criticize and judge. How dare anyone say my beliefs are wrong? I didn’t say yours was! Just because I believe in God and am a Christian doesn’t mean that I should get “beat up” by the non-believers. If I believe the Bible is 100% true, than that’s for me to believe. If you don’t want to believe it, that’s fine. Believe what you want! I don’t judge you, you don’t judge me! That has nothing to do with Christianity, it has to do with being a civilized adult!

    113. 5:54 pm chargeitotheheadnothteheart Says:

      Wow I am amazed by the different opinions! I am a believer and I want to say to all the non believers a lot of times we as Christians tend to go overboard because we believe so strongly in our God. You know its not him its his PR people US. So please forgive us when we minister or try to convert you its all out of love well at least its suppose to be because Jesus is LOVE and that is what we as Christians should be displaying and not our own personal ideas. So I say again non believers please forgive us and make the truth your own.


    114. 8:17 pm theist Says:

      some people really need a life

      …so jesus might have been married ..big whoop (yawn)…..he was a 1st century jew and an adult ..he probably WAS married

      i kinda liked the book for a fast summer read but great literature it aint

    115. 9:42 pm Theresa Says:

      I agree with Andrea 100%. I am a christian and a believer as well and I am tired of all you non-believes beating up on us and criticizing us because we believe in God; someone much higer than any of you. You don’t want to believe; don’t, but STOP knocking us because we do. It’s none of anybody’s business the way people choose to live their lives but it’s very sad that all of you are persecuting christians simply because we choose to put our faith in God.

      If christianity disgusts all of you that much, then don’t listen to it, don’t read about and leave us alone. We will be more than happy to leave you alone. Believe me.

    116. 12:11 am Iris Says:

      I have no doubt that at the end of his life, the moment his life ends, and he meets Jesus Christ, he will repent for what he had said. And it will be too little, too late. If you do not believe in life what God has offered us, no faith in the afterlife whatsoever, the moment you die, it will be too late. We have the opportunity in life to repent and amend all of our sins

    117. 12:53 am Wow Says:

      I love the veiled threats coming from people here…”believe or else…” I mean it’s one thing to believe that you’re right, another to judge others and condemn them. Didn’t the Bible say, “judge not, lest ye be judged”?

      Also, to June - Scientology is a joke. It’s the biggest scam ever, and L. Ron Hubbard was just a science fiction writer. Scientologists can believe whatever they want as long as they keep buying dianetics books.

    118. 1:00 am Wow Says:

      Also, Theresa. Don’t try to play the victim card here. If anything, atheists are portrayed far worse in the media than religious folks are. Besides, with all the flak that atheists get, some are sadly bound to get angry and verbally attack back.

    119. 1:45 am Theresa Says:

      I am not playing the “victim card” here. I was simply stating that I don’t think it’s right that non believers like to persecute us. Perhaps you think that’s acceptable behavior but I do not. I am merely standing up for what I believe in; much like everyone else on this forum.

    120. 3:53 am Wow Says:

      Persecute you? That’s a laugh. Religious people are not being persecuted — they are in the majority, still. If anything, nonbelievers are being persecuted, but I wouldn’t even go that far. Did you know that atheists are still the least trusted group in America?

      Get a grip. A few people on a message board insulting Christianity is not persecution.

    121. 4:18 am Elvis as Buddha Says:

      W O W ! ! ! This blog is hot! We are talking about what MUST become the central issue to not just America but all mankind. Reason or Faith? Aethists are not anti-Christian, we are anti-religion. In any case, our debate will come to naught if the intolerant Islamists continue to convert through Jihad and intimidation. I hope the moderators of this blog have the courage to post this.

    122. 8:22 am Pastor Maker Says:

      describe to me an example of the persecution of christians in the U.S.A (or any other “western” country) in the last 20 years.

      You seem to think christians are being persecuted if we “non-believers” laugh at your stupid, child-like superstitous ideas.

      When a bunch of atheists come into your house and set fire to your stupid bible, or apply electrodes to your genitals until you reject your precious Baby Jesus, THEN you might have a case for persecution.

      Now excuse me while I take a crap and use pages of the bible for toiletpaper. As long as it’s my copy of the bible I’m not persecuting anyone by wiping my ass with the Gospel according to John.

    123. 9:36 am Michelle Says:

      Not trying to step on any toes here but there are scientific reasons for things in the BIBLE. There actually are bushes that burn and the red sea parts. However the Bible is not meant to be taken word for word and it’s a shame people do. As for Ian’s comment get over it. He’s entitled to his opinion.

    124. 10:47 am lastman Says:

      I love this guy. Religion is for the weak. If you had nothing to belive in life would have no dorection for you. You know everyone says hell is a terrible place. Think about it this way. Why would satan torture people who do the things he likes. I think hell is just one big party and im waiting to go. Strippers, all the bands you love, and all your friends,I cant think of a better time. See god treats people like he we think he is like . So I think the same thing about satan.O yeah by the way what is the cause of 99 % of wars ummmmm RELIGION

    125. 11:17 am Paul W. Says:

      Many Christians seem to think they’re persecuted if people disagree with them, and say why. That’s not persecution; it’s free speech. The idea that a few percent of the population is persecuting the vast majority is ludicrous paranoia.

      (When was the last time atheists tried to pass a constitutional amendment limiting others’ civil rights? When was the last time Christians did, based on their religious views? Hint: pick up a newspaper.)

      If anybody’s doing any “persecuting” in the U.S., it would be the Christian majority.

      If anybody’s being mean in this particular forum, that’d have to be certain Christians who smugly imply that some of us will be tortured forever over an honest difference of opinion, and that we deserve it.

      That’s bad craziness, and if it’s rude to point that out, too bad. Maybe we atheists do have motes in our eyes, but check out those beams!

    126. 1:07 pm Buddhist gal Says:

      Looks like 90% agree with Ian.
      FYI, Buddha and Jesus were the same person born at different times in order to help people in different regions. Jesus walked on water and Buddha walked on 7 lotuses when he was born.
      In the past, people called it miracle, now people call it fiction.

    127. 1:36 pm christians are idiots Says:

      Thanks to Christians the USA is a backward country where people think the earth is 6,000 years old. These Christians think their Bible is a biology textbook. They think their invisible god friend made people.

    128. 2:36 pm Theresa Says:

      Pastor Maker

      There is a difference between an honest difference of opinion and straight disrespect. You crossed that line BIG TIME.

      You don’t have to agree with what I think the same as I don’t have to agree with you but nowhere on here have I been disrespectful to whatever it is you believe in; if anything.

      My only hope is that possibly you are mentally disturbed. That would be the ONLY plausible excuse for your disgusting and blasphemous comments. However; no matter what you say, it’s not going to change what I believe and the way I believe. I will pray that you don’t end up in hell for your attitudes or beliefs although to me, just living inside your sick, twisted mind is as close to hell as I could imagine. Peace.

    129. 4:20 pm epgomez Says:

      I didn’t realize there are a lot of devils in this forum. All they can think of is insult christians they thought they have. idiot minds.

    130. 6:16 pm D Says:


      Get a damn dictionary because you desperately need one. It’s D I R E C T I O N… not dorection.. Man, no wonder these comments sound so uneducated to me. People like you can’t spell and you know nothing about grammar and punctuation. Do everyone a favor; learn how to spell and write before leaving comments because you only make yourself look and sound like an idiot this way and it’s impossible to take your point (not that I think you have one) seriously.

    131. 6:30 pm Me Says:

      This has obviously caused some contraversy as there are too many comments for me to read although I hope mine is read.
      Upon first hearing his comment I was discusted, but know I have come to accept he is partially right.
      While The Davinci code is being sold as fiction, the bible still has that “mabey”.
      Mabey it is non-fiction, in this case I think the response of Ian was ignorant. Although i hope not as another has pointed out it’s derogitory towards women and others.

      “Shiver” I fear a christian God.

    132. 7:03 pm Timmber Says:

      Nice to see that not all Americans have a big board in front of their heads. You guys should put more effort to shutting up all those narrow minded idiots who judge themselves better persons just ’cause they believe in some wrathful god.
      Too bad they’ll never realize, even when they die, they are wrong.

    133. 9:09 pm Paul W. Says:


      I think you’re the sick and twisted one if you worship a god that you think would send anybody to Hell—i.e., inflict infinite suffering—for any reason.

      What crime could such punishment possibly fit? Your supposed God inflicts infinitely more suffering than humans ever could.

      I pity you. And I fear the tens of millions of mentally disturbed Christians like yourself, who can swallow such a pathological idea, and who vote. Yikes.

      I sincerely believe that blasphemy is a victimless crime. And if it wasn’t, I’d expect that any real god worth worshipping would think that YOU were the blasphemer here, for attributing such horrible vindictiveness to him/her/it.

      Your smug threats of infinite torture cross a line BIG TIME, too, you know—you are far beyond disrespect and into patently evil craziness.

      You are not just deluded, but morally corrupt enough to worship a monster who would torture us. You shouldn’t expect real respect with views like—especially from the people whose torture you condone.

      (Do you really respect Islamic fundamentalist terrorists’ views about killing Christian infidels? I seriously doubt it. Why should I respect your views about the torture-worthiness of atheists or “blasphemers” like myself? How could I?)

      A lot of Christians can really dish out the disrespect, and do so quite unthinkingly, but they just can’t take it.

      Your doctrine of Salvation is by far the most disrespectful load of evil malarkey ever dreamed up. If you want to be respectful, and be respected in return, don’t start in with the Hell stuff, okay?

    134. 9:23 pm Jessica Says:

      “I didn’t realize there are a lot of devils in this forum. All they can think of is insult christians they thought they have. idiot minds.”

      Wow. That’s completely incoherent.

      These comments are FABULOUS! Makes one realize that an IQ of 100 (supoosedly average American IQ) really isn’t saying much.

      Faith is a wonderful thing - especially when you can pair faith with intelligence. Go, Ian.

    135. 10:06 pm Pastor Maker Says:


      Umm…you failed to direct us to evidence of a single instance of persecution against Christians in a “western” democracy in the past 20 years.

      …and now excuse me as I line my birdcage with pages from Genesis.

    136. 11:45 pm --JSB [Atheist+Proud]-- Says:

      To all the Christians who are threatening to pray for our souls, may I ask that you pleeeeeeease don’t pray for mine. In the extremely unlikely event that you are right about an invisible man in the sky, I really don’t want to have to spend eternity with people like you.
      I’d rather be in Hell with great bands like Deicide, Cradle of Filth etc. and have a nice cup of coffee with Sir Ian Mckellen. Thanks.

    137. 11:50 pm --JSB [Atheist+Proud]-- Says:

      Theresa, how can you suggest that anybody is ‘mentally disturbed?!’
      Pastor Maker is not the one believing in a giant, invisible man who lives in the sky and can do anything he pleases, yet allows an African child to die every 3 seconds….
      I long for the day when religious belief is recognised for what it is and treated with medication and counselling.

    138. 1:06 pm Theresa Says:

      You know something? YOUR WORDS MEAN NOTHING TO ME. I could care less what any of you think about what I believe. I know in my heart that I am right and that’s enough for me.
      Pastor Maker and Paul W…. Both of you are laughable and ridiculous right along with your comments and let me tell you something, if you think your statements bother me, you are sadly mistaken. As a christian, I know that there are those of you out there who will go to any lengths to force me to turn my beliefs from God to whatever it is that you believe in but I can assure you that it will never happen.

      Paul W… As for your statement that I am the mentally disturbed one? I am not the one on here telling others that I am going to wipe my behind with pages of the Bible. How sick. For your information, I am an extremely stable minded person who works full time, goes to school, has a good marriage, pays my taxes and helps my community like all citizens should. What, mind you, is mentally disturbed in that?

      Pastor Maker… When I spoke of christians being persecuted, I was referring to this forum in particular; not the world as a whole. Perhaps you should learn to read before you speak and then you wouldn’t sound quite so uneducated.

      I am not going to keep going on about this as it would serve no useful purpose. I know what I believe, I’m happy with it, I’m at peace and that’s all that matters to me. You all can continue to be hateful and send your evil comments and wishes to someone else as I will not return to this forum. Your comments do not provoke thoughtful discussion; they are just disrespectful. It is not worth my time to continue to read such hateful blasphemy. Goodbye and I wish you all peace.

    139. 2:48 pm One Says:

      After reading the comments on this blog, it is now crystal clear to me as to why the world has gone to hell in a handbasket (pardon the pun). Get with the program people. Let the love in and get rid of the hate and doubt. It’s the only way….

    140. 5:32 pm the fact is Says:

      The fact is God has provided more than enough evidence for HIMSELF. In the end we all will be without any excuse. When people argue that the bible must be accepted by faith, they of course mean a blind leap of faith. But the REAL faith that the bible calls us to is one that believes in what is evident. I believe my chair will hold me up because I have evidence. God does not call us to make a blind leap of faith.

      I believe God exists because I have evidence of Him. You ask me to show you evidence? The evidence is plain for all to see. Look around at creation, look at the fact u even have life. That is your evidence.

      In fact God remains true to HIS promises, and the bible is testimony of that fact. And the existence of Israel and all that is happend to them is evidence of God’s existence.

      In the end we will all be without any excuse and all who deny HIM will be found to be liars. It is only the truth.

      In the name of JESUS!!!

    141. 8:17 pm Patrick Says:

      Exactly…Thank You. It’s nice to see someone on this forum who knows the truth and is not blinded by a lack of faith and vision.

      Negativity and doubt are ugly things. Long live the name of Jesus and what he stands for. If you have any doubt as to whether or not there is a God, all you have to do is look around. Nature, yourselves, creation, animals… the list goes on and on. Don’t be so close minded. Look around… the truth is everywhere to be found. All you have to do is simply accept it and let go of the hatred. It’s that simple. We are ALL God’s children; even those that deny him and his word. In the end, you will see and you will no longer be able to deny. Look around, love and accept the truth. That’s the key to true happiness and spiritual fulfillment. Thanks for letting me have my say.

    142. 8:26 pm robert Says:

      This is typical of deluded christians: “I believe God exists because I have evidence of Him.” They never use the dictionary definitions of words. They have “evidence” for their invisible god, but they say science requires “faith”. These hopelessly brainwashed christians want science teachers to teach from the bible, because they think their bible is a science textbook. There’s millions of these christian idiots in the USA. This country is so backward politicians have to go church every sunday to get elected.

    143. 11:58 pm Lisa Says:

      I’m a christian and I am not brainwashed nor am I an idiot. I also don’t think that the Bible is a science textbook. It’s simply a book of God’s words. Why do you refuse to believe in anything that you can’t see? Do you believe air exists? It does; you breathe it every day even though you can’t see it so why is it such a stretch of the imagination to believe that God exists as well?

      Why can’t christians just have their beliefs without being called deluded, idiots, or brainwashed? Why are you so determined to make us believe that there is no God? I, for one, am not trying to convince anybody of anything else; I am just saying what I think and that’s it. I am not speaking nor trying to speak for anyone else; just myself. Stop insulting people that choose to believe in God. If you don’t, fine but don’t criticize people that do. Please. It’s a free country; we’re allowed to believe whatever we want to or would you just rather our civil rights were taken away from us too? Stop being so narrow-minded. It’s insulting to educated people.

    144. 2:36 am the fact is Says:

      “They have “evidence” for their invisible god, but they say science requires “faith”.”

      I forgot to add…. Jesus is the image of God. Jesus is God come to earth in the form of human flesh.

      BTW when u say science do u mean darwinism? U mean u can’t believe in an eternal Creator, but u can believe in an infinite and eternal process of creation? How bizarre.

      AKA regarding this film. I see nothing wrong with fiction, however this film misrepresents historical fact and on the one side of the author’s mouth comes the idea that it is fiction and the other side the idea of fact. With that there is a smearing of fiction and fact together ultimately resulting in what is mistaken by Dan Brown and many others as truth. If it is fiction then why not receive it as such. And if it has no harmful intent then why distort the truth?

      Folks are worried about the objections of Christians when they should be more concerned with misrepresentation. How is it fair to misrepresent?

      BTW speaking of misrepresenting Christians, why is it all the criticism against christians here? I mean Dan Brown is basing his research on folks who also profess the name christians. With that said they are not accepted by mainline because their writings are in error.

      Peace is in JESUS ONLY!!

    145. 10:07 am Mandy Says:

      JSB- it’s not God that allows an African child to die every 3 minutes. It’s the parents that fail to give their children a life that they deserve. God provides, but he also states that you must work for what you have. If you’re going to be lazy, you go without. I don’t have to have evidence to believe. I just do. I don’t have to have any sort of reasoning at all. If you don’t want to believe, that’s your decision. Don’t criticize me because my opinios is different than yours. I know where I will spend eternity after I die. Do you?

    146. 12:31 pm Andrea Says:

      How do I know God exists? I just do. While this answer might not be acceptable for most of you, others will agree with me.

      Let me ask you this: You know the wind is blowing but do you see it? You just see the effects of the wind, not the actual wind. That’s how I feel about God. While I don’t see Him, I do see the effects of my prayers to Him and what He has blessed me with.

      I know many of you don’t agree with me but that’s fine. I’d appreciate your respect towards me since I’ve shown all of you respect. Thanks!

    147. 12:57 pm Eliza Says:

      Three big cheers for Ian!!! I have no problem with living in a society where people have diverse beliefs although I’m agnostic myself. What has really irritated me though the way Christians are constantly trying to push their faith on everyone and even legislate their morality onto everyone! I find all fundamentalist unsavory, especially the christian and muslim varieties.
      As to Mandy’s comments that God allows African children to die because their parents are too lazy to provide for them–wow, Mandy you pretty much sum up what I find grotesque about many so called christians. What they need is for the Pope to stop telling them not to use birth control since they live in an environment with limited food supplies and economic opportunity.

    148. 2:34 pm Lisa Says:

      What Andrea said is completely, 100% accurate. I believe in God because I see the miracles he creates in my life every day. I see how prayer and faith and guided me in my every day life. That’s how I know God exists. That’s what faith is; knowing something exists even though you can’t see it. God speaks to people through their hearts and through their prayers. I know that I rest comfortable at night knowing that God is there protecting me and listening to what’s in my heart and easing my burdens. That’s enough for me.

    149. 3:01 pm Eliza Says:

      Yes, I agree too, the need to feel you have a large invisible friend watching over you is a large factor in belief/faith.

    150. 3:18 pm Lisa Says:

      Eliza, tell me; as an outsider, what do you think of the human race?

    151. 3:23 pm P.L.W from S.C. Says:

      # epgomez Says:
      May 20th, 2006 at 4:20 pm

      I didn’t realize there are a lot of devils in this forum. All they can think of is insult christians they thought they have. idiot minds.

      —–take your bible out of your butt buddy and read it—–regardless of what we all believe in the bible teaches love and tolerance — their is no need for name calling…..like i said before if you really believe in God you’d just live, love and let live, like the bible says. No need for name calling. I believe in Jesus but I have numerous Gay friends, two scientologist buddies, and and my best friends is an atheist (and please dont post telling me that I am a heathen lover or hypocrite - get over it!!!). I love them just the same, I dont shun them, call then names or post ridiculous comments about their lifestyles. If Jesus did marry and have a kid, i’ll let him tell me that when I meet him, but before then i’m gonna pay my seven bucks see them movie and come back home and go about the rest of my life like I do whenever I go see any movie. :) :)

    152. 3:56 pm Paul W. Says:

      Note that Theresa goes away without ever dealing with the issues others have raised—e.g. the immorality of her God’s eternal torture camp, or the supposed “persecution” of Christians that she can’t seem to come up with a single example of.

      Many Christians—by no means all—seem to have a persecution complex. They think that stating views that are “offensive” or “blasphemous” to Christians constitutes persecution.

      And yet, saying that the Christian Bible is 100 percent true is at least equally offensive—and in most religions, equally blasphemous. (The Christian doctrine of salvation is as blasphemous as can be, in just about any non-Christian religion.)

      Non-Christians have to think that Biblical inerrantists are kinda nuts; the Bible contradicts itself in many places, and is reprehensible in many others. (It condones slavery, war, genocide, torture, daughter-selling, child-killing, killing of opposing religions’ priests or other adherents, etc., all at the command of its supposedly “good” God.)

      Many Christians think that the supposed truth of the Bible is just a hard truth, and that nobody should be offended or consider it blasphemy to state or defend that view. They think that Bible-believing Christians are just being blunt, not rude.

      But by the same token, nobody should be offended if non-Christians say they think the Bible is substantially fictional, or even false and reprehensible. That’s just being blunt, too.

      If your religion condemns us, we have a right to condemn it. It’s that simple. (Ask God’s Chosen People how they feel about being told they’re going to Hell for sticking to their religion.)

      If Christians don’t want to hear about the false and/or fictional and/or immoral aspects of their Bible, they shouldn’t go on about how wonderful and righteous and “100 percent true” the Bible is; they’re setting themselves up to be successfully contradicted.

      I can “respect” their view that the Bible is good and true only to the extent that they can “respect” my view that it’s neither.

      By the way, most non-atheists seem to be seriously mistaken about what atheism is. Most atheists don’t claim to know for a fact, or to be able to prove, that there is nothing that somebody might call a god.

      Atheism is simply the lack of belief in any gods. (It’s a-theism, i.e., being without god beliefs.) Many atheists do strongly doubt that there is anything particularly worthy of being called “god,” and even more strongly doubt particular gods—just as most religious people strongly doubt the existence of other religions’ gods.

      Atheists just disbelieve in one more god than theists do.
      That makes us the most agreeable people in the world—we agree with Christians that Hinduism is probably wrong, with Jews that Christianity is probably wrong, etc.

      I don’t think that anybody who doubts anybody else’s religion should be particularly offended by atheists. Religious people tend to think that people of other religions are terribly misguided, and that their sacred stories are mostly myth. We agree all around.

      “We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the same sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.” — H.L. Mencken

    153. 4:10 pm Mandy Says:

      Eliza- I never said that all of these parents were too lazy to provide for their children. I said that if you are going to be lazy, God says you do without. These African people- and people of many other nations all have minds of their own. If they see that they are not financially able to provide for their children, they should do something in order to prevent that from happening. As for your comment about Christians- I have read all of the comments on here and not once did I read where someone was trying to “push” the religion onto you. What about Tom Cruise? What about him going on national television and saying that everyone who doesn’t believe the word of L. Ron Hubbard is wrong? What about when he said that people who take medicine or talk to someone about their problems are wrong? Eliza- it’s very obvious to me that you are not a Christian. What right do you have to try and bring us down? Trying to make us feel little because we believe in something that you can’t see? Does it make you feel important? Better than me? I know what I believe in and neither you nor anyone else that doesn’t believe in the same thing is going to change my mind. Again- I know where I’m going when I die. Do you?

    154. 4:18 pm the fact is Says:


      You have to distinguish between God and people. The fact is christians are just people and they as human can misrepresent or misunderstand the ways of God. Though God’s revelation is made know without error, it is entrusted to reliable folks such as the prophets and apostles so they can teach it or record it. But not everyone represents it accurately. I personally see that and I won’t condemn someone for being human. However just because someone misrepresents something, that doesn’t relieve me of my responsibility or the consequences of my actions WHEN I have the ability to go and research it myself.

      How does God represent HIMSELF? Folks have to put all these differences of opinion, all these human errors and misunderstandings aside and goto God themselves and findout if His word is true. Each person can know God personally. Put it this way, it is plain wrong for me to show comtempt for you based on hearsay, or based on me having a bad experience with a friend of yours. Rather than letting my experience or hearsay effect my interaction with another person, I should goto that person myself.

      BTW: “The need to feel you have a large invisible friend”? He makes Himself known!!!

      Rather than physcoanalyzing how and why people believe, why not go to God Himself. You can’t be an expert on something that you know nothing about. How can you be an expert on God if you don’t know Him??

    155. 4:51 pm Theresa Says:

      Paul W.

      You need to read more carefully. In my last comment, I stated that the persecution I was referring to was on this forum in particular. Almost everyone on here is condemning christianity and all that it stands for. That is what I was referring to.

      I am not raising issue with any of the other things said because I feel no need to defend myself or my beliefs. If you are so reviled by christianity, stay away from opinion forums on the subject. Real simple.

    156. 8:06 pm Paul W. Says:

      Theresa says,

      “In my last comment, I stated that the persecution I was referring to was on this forum in particular. Almost everyone on here is condemning christianity and all that it stands for. That is what I was referring to.”

      A few people of people publicly disagreeing with you publicly is not persecution.

      If it were, atheists would be “persecuted” all the time in the U.S., and notably in this forum. I don’t notice anybody making that claim; few atheists are as thin-skinned as many Christians are.

      (That’s something you still don’t seem to get. You don’t understand McKellen’s comments, because you can’t see things from our perspective.)

      Note that several people have warned non-Christians about going to Hell, and they were apparently serious. Your statement that almost everybody here is condemning Christianity is plainly false. A number of Christians are here agreeing with you, and a number of others are here and taking a more moderate stance.

      You don’t seem to notice that a number of commenters have made the same kind of offensive comment you have. Seriously threatening people with a fate vastly worse than death is worse than an apparently joking threat to abuse a copy of a book.

      Are we, the people threatened with everlasting torture, whining that we’re persecuted? No. Get a clue from that. You’re not being persecuted, either, just disagreed with more bluntly than you’re used to.

      “I am not raising issue with any of the other things said because I feel no need to defend myself or my beliefs. If you are so reviled by christianity, stay away from opinion forums on the subject. Real simple.”

      Get over the fact that some of us notice that you do not actually respect us or our views—if you did, you wouldn’t think we deserve everlasting torture for them. If we show similar but MUCH MILDER disrespect for your views, you shouldn’t be surprised.

      We have as much of a right to offend your very deliciate sensibilities as you have to offend our far less delicate ones.

      And if you don’t like that hard truth, stay out of not-exclusively-Christian opinion forums like this. Real simple.

    157. 8:19 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      To Andrea and Lisa, The reason the wind blows is called WEATHER, part of a SCIENCE known as METEOROLOGY. Something else you might want to check out, it’s a little thing called REALITY.

    158. 11:47 pm the fact is Says:

      Elvis I don’t see how u answered the point regarding the wind. The fact is you can’t seen the wind it is invisible. However you can measure the effects.

      Wether it is science or not, is not relevant. The point is just because u can’t see the wind with your human eyes doesn’t negate the reality of it.

      That is a reasonable response to the point about God being invisible and christians being “idiots” for believing in an invisible God. Just because you can’t seem Him does not negate the reality of Him.

    159. 4:00 am Theresa Says:

      Paul W.

      Ok. I will give you the perfect example of Christian persecution. Jesus Christ was mocked, beaten, bloodied and nailed to a cross with nails through his hands and feet; ALL for his beliefs and spreading his Father’s word. Is this not persecution? However; you as a non-believer are not going to view this as a valid example but it’s the best one I can think of. Jesus was persecuted for spreading his Father’s word. That’s the worst kind of persecution I can think of.

      I am not a thin-skinned person either; keep in mind, you do not know anything about me other than what I say in my comments on this forum so you have no basis or foundation for judging me in this manner. You have no clue how I am in my every day life or the content of my character. I am however, very passionate about my beliefs; especially my religious ones so one would suppose that if you want to say I am thin-skinned merely because I stand up for what I believe in and don’t back down in fear, that is your choice.

      As far as “understanding” McKellan’s comments? Oh, I understand them alright. What’s not to understand? He is clearly an athiest and/or agnostic. Whatever he calls himself, he’s certainly not a christian. It has absolutely nothing to do with not seeing it from “your” perspective. Look at how he worded his comments; nobody can misinterpret that. He thinks the Bible is “somewhat preachy” and believes it should come with a disclaimer that it is a work of fiction. Please do not insult my intelligence by assuming that I don’t understand where he’s coming from because I do.

      I read back on all of my comments and nowhere did I ever say anything offensive. The only even slightly offensive thing I might have said was in regard to what Pastor Maker said in his comment. I said I hoped that he was mentally disturbed because that would be the only excuse for his brazen lack of respect. IF I was offensive, it is only because of his total lack of respect. I never said anything anywhere near as crude and disgusting as his statements were and I stand by my belief that he is a very sick individual. Normal people do not talk like that and speak like that; even on a subject they disagree on. Adults knows how to agree to disagree.

      Maybe you’re not “whining”, as you put it, that you’re being persecuted but you are being FAR more critical of me than I have been of you. Perhaps it’s because I’m a woman and you are a man and perhaps you think your opinion means more than mine. Could that possibly be it? I do respect EVERYONE’s views; even those which I vehemently disagree with because I am not a hateful person and I wish nothing bad on anybody. I always have and will continue to pray for ALL people; regardless of their religious standpoint; athiests, agnostics, and of course, other christians and everyone in between.

      “Delicate Sensibilities” is a term often used to describe the feelings of weak females and let me assure you that I am not of that variety. I am stronger than you know and it would take much more than simple, empty words out of the mouths of the people on this forum to change anything about the way I think.

      Offend all you like; it’s your precious time and energy that you’re wasting; not mine. It is also your choice to disagree as much as you want to. It is not going to bother me. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I know which side I’m on and as I said before, that’s enough for me. Excuse me while I go and read my Father’s words and pray for all the souls that are headed to eternal damnation. Night night.

    160. 7:55 am Eliza Says:

      God speaks to us from the bible? or why I’m no Christian:

      God Says:
      Stone your disobedient children to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

      Only women who have children will be spared hell (1 Timothy 2:15)

      If a woman is raped in town and no one hears her screaming then she shall be stoned to death..(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)

      men can sell their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)

      After victory over an enemy if you see a woman you like among the captives you can take her, if later you decide you don’t like her you don’t have to marry her but God says since you have humbled her don’t sell her for money rather let her go for free. Nice guy! (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

      I could go on and on. To me the Bible is obviously written by a bunch of barbaric men but Christians hold it up as the word of God. I actually think it is pretty gross and twisted. Christians will say that Jesus comes and smooths all this ugliness over but that doesn’t really change the picture we get of God. Is this a God we want to worship? For me the answer is no.

      I did not mean to express others could not believe as they wish but lately Christians have been on a mission to take over the government in the name of their God, enact laws according to their beliefs, and bring the bible and prayer into the public school system. This I strongly disagree with. There is no law that you can’t express your views in school, pray, or bring your bible. I just expect the same rights for myself and family that Christians have, the right to believe or not believe what is true for me. I think I am a moral person and I contribute to society and work to make the world a better place. I live and work with Christians and never bring the subject up or challenge their beliefs so long as they respect my own. The only reason I posted initially was this thread had some Christians wanting US to censor nonChristian viewpoints. I think that part of the issue with the Da Vinci code movie is some Christians wanting to silence people who don’t share their world view. This is what bothers me, it is equally valid to not believe in Christianity as it is to believe as far as I’m concerned. By all means however, believe what you wish, whatever gets you through and brings you happiness. Just don’t expect everyone to march to your drummer and be open minded enough to see there are other possible interpretations of the world out there.

    161. 9:35 am Mandy Says:

      Hey Elvis- who do you think made the weather? Ron Hubbard? I don’t think so.
      Paul- I understand in part what Theresa is saying. In my belief, if you do not accept Jesus as your Savior and give your life to Him, you will not have a spot in Heaven. Is that what will really happen? I think so, but your beliefs might be different than mine. I completely understand how some people can think that the Bible is a work of fiction. You have to have a strong faith in order to believe what is written there. I believe and I would appreciate if people didn’t say that I was wrong for what I believe just because you don’t agree.

    162. 11:56 am Mandy Says:

      Eliza- to imply that all Christians believe in doing the actions you have quoted is ignorant. Just because I believe in the Bible doesn’t mean that I think it’s okay to stone people to death or to sell my daughter into slavery. If you don’t believe in God and the word of the Bible, fine. Don’t try and belittle me because I do. Don’t come in here and tell me- and other people who share my beliefs that we are wrong. I don’t share your beliefs. Does that mean that you are wrong. To me, yes. To everyone, no. But I’m not on here criticizing you and telling you that you’re barbaric.

    163. 12:16 pm Lisa Says:


      One thing that you don’t seem to understand is that the Bible was written in a time where everything was completely different than it is now. The society we live in and the laws that govern us did not exist back then. Also, you have to learn how to interpret things from the Bible. Don’t take it so literally. In the Bible, words have many, many different meanings and you can’t always assume that it means exactly what it says.

      I can certainly see where you would be confused as to certain passages in the Bible but you must know how to interpret it. I’m not criticizing you by any means; just giving you another point of view. Thanks.

    164. 1:36 pm Paul W. Says:


      It would be funny, if it weren’t so sad, the way you just don’t get that you’re being about as offensive as it’s possible to be—except that we non-Christians are pretty much used to it, and people like you are so used to doing it, that it usually passes without comment.

      Sure, Pastor Maker was rude, and I wouldn’t have said what those things about using a copy of your Bible as toilet paper or birdcage liner. Not because I disagree with his view of the Bible or what it’s good for—to me, it’s just a mess of a cobbled-together book, with plenty of spare copies around—but because I wouldn’t want to send people with delicate sensibilities into a tizzy.

      (And no, that phrase has nothing to do with the whether the people in question are women or men. It was intended to apply every bit as much to men as women, and maybe especially to tough-talking men whose sensibilities about such things are actually quite delicate.)

      Notice that while Pastor Maker was rude, and intentionally provocative, those comments didn’t imply that you deserve death, or torture, or a fate infinitely worse than death.

      You implied far worse things, i.e., that Pastor Maker is either mentally ill or something much worse. So much worse, in fact, as to be worthy of torture vastly worse than Jesus endured on the cross—INFINITE suffering.

      Your comments imply that you think your god is likely to TORTURE US FOREVER, and you WORSHIP that god.

      Talk about rude!

      That is blasphemy in just about any belief system that doesn’t accept the divinity of your particular God. You have blasphemed very seriously against many gods that many people very seriously believe in. Stop it, or get used to a negative reaction from non-Christians.

      I happen not to believe in any gods, so I can’t shout “die, blasphemer, die!” but I can say that’s… well… mighty rude. It isn’t persecution—it’s just talk—but it’s BY FAR the rudest thing that has been said in this forum.

      How can you worship a god who inflicts infinite suffering for finite offenses, including honest differences of opinion? How is that justified by the TOKEN sacrifice of a few hours on a cross, which is vastly less than the suffering of innocent humans or even ONE PERSON in your god’s eternal torture camp?

      (I know people who’ve actually suffered substantially more than Jesus would have on the cross; they didn’t get all better after three days and get to be Ruler of the Universe forever, either. I’d trade places with your Jesus in a second, crucifixion and all; being God is nice work if you can get it. And I just don’t understand how his suffering some physical agony—for less than a microsecond for each of us— is in any way related to whether we’re worthy of forgiveness. Substitutional punishment just doesn’t make any sense to me, whether the victim is a goat or a god. Substitutional punishment is barbaric, and your supposed god specializes in it.)

      I don’t believe that any comment is so rude, or that any belief—or even any action—is so evil as to justify the infinite vindictiveness of torturing somebody forever. That’s pure evil.

      Apparently you do think it’s justified, and you think it’s okay if it’s applied to us. If you can’t see that that’s far ruder—or more far more messed-up—than some poop jokes, I think you lack perspective.

      How would you like it if I told you I thought you deserved to die horribly for your false and evil beliefs—say, for a friend of mine to come to your house, douse you with gasoline, and set you afire, just to show you what it’s like? Suppose I even said I was going to go pay my respects to somebody who is actually likely to do exactly that to you, because he doesn’t like people who think the way you do, and wants to teach them a lesson?

      That would be rather rude, wouldn’t it? (It would be rather disturbingly psychotic, if you ask me.) Luckily, I’d never say such a thing, and I doubt very much that Pastor Maker would either. I, for one, wish you well despite your apparent hatred of people like me.

      (Oh, I know, “love the sinner, hate the sin,” etc…. but somehow I just don’t buy lovingly torturing people forever. That’s a pretty messed-up kind of “love.”)

      Go worship your infinitely-torturing God if you want to. But if you praise such an infinitely monstrous person to people who don’t buy all that, and especially if you threaten people with his infintely vengeful wrath, don’t expect them to take it well.

      If they just make a few jokes about pooping on a book which justifies torturing them—you’re are getting off easy. (Imagine how a Jew might feel about a spare copy of Mein Kampf—which does not in fact advocate infinite torture. Would you expect them to handle it respectfully, just because some other people like that book a lot?)

      Notice that we’re not defending anyone who would do violence to you. We wouldn’t do that, because however “rude” we are, we’re actually a lot nicer than you.

      When literalist and inerrantist Christians stop threatening me with torture for disagreeing with them, I’ll stop making such “rude” fun of such a psychotic belief system.

    165. 2:04 pm Mandy Says:

      Paul- while I understand and appreciate that you have your own opinion and you are able to voice it in a somewhat intellegent manner, I would appreciate more if you did not refer to the God that I believe in as and “infinitely-torturing God.” If that’s what you believe fine. You are extremely upset by the fact that Theresa has mentioned that you will be going to Hell which makes me believe that you are aware that there is a Hell. My question to you is how can you believe that there is a Hell and not believe that there is a God?

    166. 2:19 pm the fact is Says:

      my last reply didn’t go throug correctly for some reason:


      God Says:”
      Stone your disobedient children to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21)

      Wether this is a common practice of the societies then or not is something I don’t know.

      However I wouldn’t doubt it as many things prescribed in the old testament were the norm for

      other cultures as well, such as the method of courtship, and the patriarchial system.

      “Only women who have children will be spared hell (1 Timothy 2:15)”

      That is not what that verse says. In fact if you look at what that same author says elsewhere

      you will see he didn’t mean what you say. See: 1Co 7:1-9

      Why would Paul {the author} teach that a woman has to have children to be saved and then teach

      that she is doing good if she chooses to remain unmarried?

      “If a woman is raped in town and no one hears her screaming then she shall be stoned to

      death..(Deuteronomy 22:23-24)”

      God expects his people to act with the higest level of love. This is not something that was to

      be applied so shallow as it might appear. In fact if you read the new testament Jesus rebukes

      the Jews for reading such passages with such a literal and legalistic interpretation. In short

      folks are expected to interpret the law with an understanding of what love is.

      Now something to point out to you, that passage does not say if a woman is raped, it says if a

      woman is betrothed and is raped and doesn’t cry out. A woman who was betrothed was as good as

      married in those days. So she in effect commited adultery. It is possible that is another law

      common to the societies then. In anycase I believe it is safe to conclude that the jews were

      expected to investigate before doing anything and this was simply a principle of that

      investigation. In otherwords if the woman willfully engaged in adultery is reflected by the

      idea that she didn’t scream

      men can sell their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)
      After victory over an enemy if you see a woman you like among the captives you can take her, if

      later you decide you don’t like her you don’t have to marry her but God says since you have

      humbled her don’t sell her for money rather let her go for free. Nice guy! (Deuteronomy


    167. 2:21 pm the fact is Says:

      “men can sell their daughters into slavery (Exodus 21:7-10)”

      The bible doesn’t say men can sell their daughters into slavery. It is providing a law for

      their welfare in case that happens.

      Just like God does not permit divorce, however because he knew men would divorce their wives he

      made laws concerning them. God made a concession. See: Mat 19:3-9

      “After victory over an enemy if you see a woman you like among the captives you can take her, if

      later you decide you don’t like her you don’t have to marry her but God says since you have

      humbled her don’t sell her for money rather let her go for free. Nice guy! (Deuteronomy


      Now this is one translation. Unfortunatly there are many who are making translations and it can

      become confusing. But if you look at the most reliable translations you will see that this

      passage does not say ‘you can take’ instead it says ‘if you take’. I suggest you try the King

      James Version or the New King James Version, or the New International Version.


    168. 2:32 pm Theresa Says:

      Paul W,

      Well, I guess there is not much more to say. You have your opinions and I have mine. Be well assured that I do not hate you or anyone else on this planet. I have never, in any comment, threatened you with torture or implied in anyway that you are going to be tortured. As I said, I do not wish anything bad on anyone. Perhaps that’s your own guilt speaking? Don’t make your doubt and guilt mine because I will not accept it. The sad thing here is that you seem to be a very intelligent man; severely misguided, but intelligent nonetheless and it is too bad that you will not allow yourself to be more open minded. I am sorry if you do not think that I am a “nice” person but I can assure you that you are in the minority on that one. I have many friends and many, many people that share my beliefs. Through my work, I associate with people from ALL walks of life; black, white, asian, hispanic, agnostic, atheist, christian….. what have you. My work takes me through the whole gamut of people. I have friends that are christians like myself and I also have many friends who are non-believers. I have rich friends and I have dirt poor friends. I do not allow my personal belief system to dictate who I am “nice” to. I do not judge anyone nor do I attempt to make them view religion as I do. I simply live my life, with my beliefs and I am happy doing so. Why is it that people like you (to borrow your quote) constantly attempt to turn me against what I believe? Why can’t you just live and let live? Could it perhaps be that you have doubts as to whether or not you are really correct in your perception of religion? Or maybe it’s because you KNOW you’re in the minority and don’t want to be there alone. You know that they say that misery loves company.

      I follow what the Bible says and what it says is that those who deny God will go to hell. I didn’t write the Bible; I simply follow it. I implied no torture for you or anyone of the sort; it’s the Bible that says that. It’s not man’s law or society’s law. It is GOD’S law and that is the one I adhere to (as well as society’s laws) so when you say that it’s ME implying these things; it’s not. Perhaps you should take up your doubt with God himself and stop acting as though I personally am to blame for everything that christianity stands for.

      I DO NOT, in any way, advocate any type of violence against anyone. I strongly resent you referring to my beliefs as a “psychotic belief system”. It just confirms my belief that you have absolutely NO understanding of the Bible and if you have read any of it; you have taken the context much too literally. Make fun all you want. It’s your soul; not mine.

    169. 2:42 pm Eliza Says:

      My remarks were intended to those Christians who feel compelled to be activists. For example, telling people not to see a movie because its blasphemous, trying to prevent people with different beliefs from using birth control, preventing condoms from being distributed in AIDS ravished Africa, pushing for teaching the Bible in science class, etc… Also, I don’t think all Christians are barbaric, I said the men who originally wrote the Bible were barbaric. I fully realize that most Christians don’t advocate stoning people, its more that I wonder how they recognize some parts of the Bible are off or just wrong but feel other parts are correct.

      It is impossible to lump all Christians together since there are over 200 sects now that all believe slightly differently. Some Christians take the Bible quite literally, others pick and choose which parts they like and discard the rest, and some just see it allegorically.

      Problem is that means truth is subjective and no one gets to say they have the answers for everyone. The literal way is obviously a mistake. The pick and choose way gets into which parts to keep and which parts do we say are the “truth”. If we say stoning a raped woman is obviously a tosser how do we justify keeping the parts about homosexuality being a sin? If we toss out selling our daughters do you get to be totally convinced that the creation story trumps evolution. Its totally subjective.

      I took a Bible study class actually and the answers never added up for me. I have a degree in Biology and all my friends would groan over how hard Chemistry was but I thought it was a piece of cake next to swallowing the stuff in Bible study. It seemed to me like a lot of creative interpretation mixed with a lot of insistence that some concrete truth could be wrung out it and it didn’t quite add up. Just look at the huge variation in interpretation of the Bible between say Jehovah Witnesses, Catholics, and Congregationalists. Who has it right? *shrug* Some of my fellow classmates believe in God and evolution and a very liberally, selectively interpreted Bible. Works great for them so its fine by me. Again, I’m not saying you don’t have the right to believe whatever you desire and maybe the answers in bible class made sense for you whereas they just didn’t for me. Just showing you that intelligent, informed people can sometimes arrive at a very different place and we have a right to be respected too. My posting to this thread was prompted by a couple of Christians expressing the desire to censure views they didn’t like. I don’t particularly care for Christians who stand outside women’s clinics with hateful signs or who picket funerals with signs saying “God Hates Fags” but they have a right to their opinion, of course I would prefer they kept it more to themselves though. Just like I’m sure some Christians wish Ian McKellen couldn’t say what he did about his beliefs. I do find some parts of the Bible instructive in leading a good life. I also borrow from Buddhism and Humanism. I know that I don’t have any market on truth and I respect the right of everyone to seek their own truths so long as they don’t impinge on the rights of others.

      Lisa, I apologize for the cheap shot about invisible friends. You sound like a nice and intelligent person. I have such a sarcastic streak and your statement at that moment of weakness and in that frame of mind just provided too much temptation for me to say that. Peace.

    170. 3:27 pm Robin Says:

      OK, first I agrre with an McKellen, christians may get upset by this (and they certainly do), but they need to be remembered they think the same about any other religious sacred book other than the Bible. Christian are quick to label McKellen an atheist (nothing wrong with that actually, I’m one myself, but it’s the meaning they imply), but they haven’t taken the pause to reflect it could as well be said by a budhist, a muslim, a hindu… and to some parts by a jew?

      It’s funny how some christians state the Bible is 100% the true word of their god and then go on to interpret it however it best suits their conveniences and/or agenda. Every christian faction out there gives whatever meaning they please to the same old tired book; the catholics, the mormons, the Jehovah’s witnesses, and the countless protestant/evengelicals… and not only that, but they point the fingers to each other accusing the other of misinterpreting the big book. How can’t their god fix this mess once and for all?

      The thing is the Bible is a very old publication filled with outdated fables and teachings — yes, it also has good advice and morals, but it can’t be said it was the first. As a matter of fact, is known the many of the stories of the Bible were copied from other cultures and then glorified to outshine those older tales — such as the idea of paradise, the big flood, the birth of Jesus, the crucifixion, and others. Also (as stated before) the fact that the Bible’s own different gospels contradict each other (the birth of Jesus, the last supper, the death of Judas, to cite only three) tells a lot about the veracity of what’s written there. Whom do I believe, Mark or John? Matthew or Luke? all of them claim to be passing the word of god… hmm.

    171. 3:35 pm Paul W. Says:


      No, I don’t believe in Hell. My inability to believe in Hell is one of the reasons I don’t (and can’t) believe in your Bible or its god.

      “I would appreciate more if you did not refer to the God that I believe in as and “infinitely-torturing God.” If that’s what you believe fine.”

      What do YOU believe? Is Hell not very unpleasant? Is it not everlasting? Is the Bible wrong on those points?

      I am just trying to state things plainly. I don’t believe any of it, but it appears to me that Theresa—and maybe you—are in fact talking about an infinitely torturing god, and exactly that, in somewhat less awful-sounding language.

      How is “infinitely torturing” not a fair description of a god who would inflict severe and everlasting punishment? You might somehow think that the torture is somehow okay for god to inflict, but it’s still torture, no two ways about it. And if “damnation” is “eternal”, as Theresa says, it’s infinite torture.

      Is it rude for me to state things plainly? Clearly Theresa is talking about infinite torture, and my deserving it. I think she and others should face up to what she’s really saying, and not euphemize it.

      I understand that “eternal damnation” sounds better, to some people who are used to the idea—it sounds like a just punishment, perhaps, laying guilt on me and de-emphasizing God’s role in it.

      But that is exactly what I am calling into question, and exactly the issue that Theresa continues to evade.

      Hence the question: how is eternal damnation not literally infinite torture?

      And given that, how can it be just or merciful or even barely excusable?

      As I asked a long time ago, what crime could a punishment of infinite torture possibly fit?

      (Please answer those questions. Seriously. Think about it and try to answer those questions clearly.)

      All humans put together, including Hitler and Stalin, have never inflicted nearly as much suffering as a god would by consigning even ONE person to an eternity in Hell.

      That has to be relevant to whether the Christian god is even approximately a loving or just God.

      Christians who believe in Hell should think hard about what is they’re endorsing. If they rudely bring up threats of Hell, non-Christians should stop pussyfooting around the issue, and hold their feet to the fire, so to speak.

      I’m just speaking truth to power here. It’s time for the minority to speak up and question the majority view of what the minority deserves.

      If your god would send me or anyone else to Hell, I’d like you to acknowledge what that says about HIM.

      I’d say it says more about him than about me. And it says something interesting about people who can worship such a god.

      But if we want to avoid literally saying what it is, I suppose we could just call it The Final Solution. :-)

    172. 4:32 pm Lisa Says:


      Apology accepted but none was needed. You have your opinions and I certainly respect them. I want you to know that I do not, in any way, shape or form, condone any type of violence, prejudice, or racism. I have my beliefs but I do not believe that I have the right to force them onto those that choose not to believe and I would never do so. I think that you are a very intelligent person also and you have given me some things to think about. Peace to you as well. Lisa

    173. 4:32 pm Mandy Says:

      The way that I believe is that the only unforgivable sin is not recognizing Jesus as your Savior. If you fail to do that, Yes, I believe that you will spend eternity in Hell. People that do evil things must be punished. It’s not that I have a torturous God, it’s that there has to be some order in the world.

    174. 4:33 pm Mandy Says:

      And if you don’t believe in Hell, I suppose you don’t have anything to worry about.

    175. 4:45 pm Theresa Says:


      I think you’re exactly right although I also believe that along with not recognizing Jesus as your savior, I think suicide is the other unforgiveable sin. Maybe so, maybe not but that’s what I think. God is not torturous at all. To those who know him and accept him, he is a loving, forgiving God. It’s only those who reject him that are going to feel his wrath. It’s nice to have someone on here whose opinions are in agreement with mine. I thought I was all alone on here for a while. LOL..

    176. 5:45 pm Mandy Says:

      I agree with you Theresa. The Bible states that taking one’s own life is going against God’s will.

      I am not a stupid person. I understand that everyone is not going to believe in the same thing as me. But for other people to come on here and try and insult me because of my beliefs if pure and simple ignorance. I’m not on here bashing anyone else because you don’t share my beliefs and I would appreciate the same respect from my fellow posters.

    177. 5:46 pm Robin Says:

      From Theresa - “he is a loving, forgiving God”
      From Mandy - “It’s not that I have a torturous God, it’s that there has to be some order in the world.”

      Being “God” omnipresent and almighty, he must approve of and oversee such punishing operation called Hell, that means he’s not forgiving — and yes, he’s torturous. - BTW, is he or she? and how anyone knows for sure?

      And, of course, suicide is labeled a sin, people doing so would find sooner there’s nothing after life… or wouldn’t they? That’s another of God’s torture; since the afterlife is WAY better than your current existence, he forces you to stay in this ‘miserable’ world until he ‘decides’ whenever it’s appropiate. (for whom anyways?)
      I don’t need that kind of savior, thanks.

    178. 7:11 pm Mandy Says:

      Robin- you go ahead and believe in what you wish. What I find interesting is that no one has responded to my question about where you will be after you die. BTW- He doesn’t oversee Hell.

    179. 7:20 pm Robin Says:

      Retaking the air/wind - God analogy, yes, I agree with the christians above. The air and God are similar beyond being invisible, they are both things man has managed to manipulate for whatever purpose he pleases and has get used to blame for whatever does not work as expected…

      On the other hand, yes, air CAN BE SEEN, though not to the naked eye, you can always put a volume of air and observe its particles in a microscope. Now, try that with any god. Air can be studied and analyzed, winds can be predicted, hurricanes and other weather phenomena can be pronosticated to a certain degree thanks to science… or do you prefer the version that it’s some god blowing?
      Eolo perhaps…

    180. 7:47 pm Paul W. Says:

      “God is not torturous at all. To those who know him and accept him, he is a loving, forgiving God. It’s only those who reject him that are going to feel his wrath.”

      Wow. I guess he’s “not torturous” because he only inflicts infinite torture on people like me, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc., while being loving toward people like you.

      Sounds like a great guy. If anybody ever deserved to go to Hell, and be tortured forever, I think it would have to be Him. That would be poetic justice, anyway.

      Many Christians think that non-Christians are being willful and disobedient by “rejecting” Jesus. They’re committing a sin, somehow, by being mistaken about whether Jesus is God. That’s just bunk.

      Non-Christians don’t “reject” Jesus; we don’t believe him. There’s a huge difference.

      I “reject” Jesus in the same sense that you presumably “reject” Zeus, Thor, and leprechauns. They’re mythical beings, not actual persons you can “reject” in an offensive way. Their feelings don’t get hurt.

      So far as I know, they’re not actually people that I can actually reject, and neither is your Jesus, in the sense many Christians seem to assume.

      Perhaps I’m mistaken. Would that mistake justify torturing me forever? How exactly does an honest mistake justify inflicting infinite suffering?

      For the sake of argument, try really hard to imagine for one enlightening moment that you were wrong in your beliefs, and you worshipped the wrong God. Suppose that the real god(s) tortured you forever for “choosing” to believe Jesus was god. Unknowingly, you sinned unforgivably against Zeus and Hera by worshipping a false god.

      Suppose that you were a nice, upstanding moral person who did a lot of good, but the unforgivable sin was failing to recognize Zeus and Hera as gods, and worship them.

      Would that be fair? Or should such gods be a bit more understanding of people like you?

      And if so, how is your god any less vindictive than Zeus would be, for torturing you forever just for being Christian?

      I find it rather odd how the Christians who talk most about the “persecution” of Christians are usually people who think their God’s infinitely worse persecution of non-Christians as entirely right and just.

      In one breath, they talk about how Christians are “persecuted” by people who say less-than-nice things about Christianity, and then go on to say that non-Christians will be righteously tortured forever… and it’s a fine thing.


      If that’s Christian “love,” I want no part of it.

      Apparently your god thinks that if you love something, you should let it go—and if it flies away, you should hunt it down and torture it forever.

      If you don’t see anything wrong with that, something is wrong with you. You don’t deserve to be tortured forever, but you are in serious need of some actual morality.

    181. 7:51 pm WALK IT OFF Says:


    182. 9:28 pm Theresa Says:

      Paul W.,

      Here’s a suggestion for you. Instead of hanging out on a blog trying to find answers to questions that you have, why don’t you take a world religion class; or better yet, go talk to a minister, priest, rabbi etc…. or whoever best suits your beliefs. You seem to be seeking a lot of answers but no matter what anyone tells you, you are not going to believe it because you don’t seem to have any faith in anything. Do you believe in anything; or anybody? You keep asking the same questions over and over in a different format yet you are never satisfied with any of the answers you have received.

      Honestly, the truth is inside you. Why don’t you pray/meditate to whoever and whatever it is that you do believe in? Ask to be shown the truth and you will receive it in one form or another. However; this kind of soul searching requires an extremely open mind. Are you up for the challenge?

      I do have a question for you though. If you are so sure that “my God” doesn’t exist, why do you have so many questions? Seems to me that maybe you are not so sure and are seeking proof. If you honestly didn’t believe in anything about christianity, you would not be on this blog discussing and dissecting it. You would just dismiss it as hocus pocus and that would be the end of it. The very fact that you’re on here seeking answers tells me a lot. Think about that.

    183. 9:38 pm robert Says:

      “I find interesting is that no one has responded to my question about where you will be after you die.”

      Face reality Christians. This is what happens after you drop dead. You become excellent tasting worm food. And that’s it. You have to be hopelessly deluded if you think anything else happens. People who are afraid of reality become Christians so they can live in a fantasy world.

    184. 1:15 am Robin Says:

      Mandy, when I die I will be wherever I and/or my family choose me to be… in a typical cemetery, in an urn… (my ashes) thrown to the wind or to the sea… I prefer the latter ones and be remembered by my loved ones –– don’t like too much the usual funeral and cemetery things, to me it’s a waste. My memory will live on with the people I shared my time, love and happiness. Plain and simple.

      How about you, Mandy? Are you going to Heaven? How can you guarantee there is such a thing? Has anyone ever came back from there? Is there any proof to support such a claim? Don’t think you need to prove it? Take this example, if we both are in a room and I say ‘there’s no chair here’ and you say ‘there’s one chair’, who’s the one that needs to prove the other wrong?

    185. 1:22 am Robin Says:

      Mandy: “BTW- He [God] doesn’t oversee Hell.”

      Typical, whenever it’s a liability, this god suddenly stops being omnipresent and almighty.

      Mandy, you just said that.

    186. 9:51 am Paul W. Says:

      Mandy writes:

      “What I find interesting is that no one has responded to my question about where you will be after you die.”

      Personally, I’m pretty sure I’ll cease to exist. A mind is a process, not an object, and when the process stops, it ceases to exist. (Where does a flame go when the flame goes out? Nowhere; it just stops existing. Complicated phenomena are typically like that; the underlying simple materials may endure, but the “objects” or processes are fragile and transitory.)

      “BTW- He doesn’t oversee Hell.”

      I guess He subcontracts that out. (Like “rendition” of prisoners to countries that will torture them, SO THAT they’ll be tortured, but you won’t have to do it yourself.)

      Either way, if the story was true, your omniscient and omnibenevolent God would be responsible. He could abolish Hell, but chooses not to; he’d rather send people there so that they can suffer infinite torture for honest mistakes.

    187. 10:40 am Mandy Says:

      Paul- again- I respect and appreciate that you have such strong beliefs. And again- please do not come on here and try and belittle people like me who do believe. God doesn’t send people to Hell. These people chose to go there. You’ve told me that you don’t believe in Hell, yet almost every comment you make references the “infinite suffering” by going there. If you don’t believe, you don’t have anything to worry about. You’ll stay in a 6 foot hole in the ground for all you know. You seem to keep avoiding my question about where you’ll go when you die. I’m quite curious for an answer. Don’t bash me for what I believe.
      TO “walk it off”- I’m not on here telling people that it’s wrong to express an opinion. I follow the Bible. If you would like to go on thinking that I’m dumb- so be it. I know where I’m going when I die. Hopefully I’ll see you, and everyone else there.

    188. 11:22 am Paul W. Says:

      Mandy writes: “Paul- again- I respect and appreciate that you have such strong beliefs. And again- please do not come on here and try and belittle people like me who do believe. God doesn’t send people to Hell. These people chose to go there.”

      You’re contradicting yourself here, or being subtly evasive. On the one hand, you say that you “respect” that I have such strong beliefs. Then you proceed to say that people like me choose to go to Hell.

      I never chose to go to Hell. I simply disagree with you.

      If my saying so, and explaining why, constitutes “disrespect,” so be it.

      You clearly think I deserve eternal torture for my “choice” to disagree with you—or rather, to disagree with what you “choose” to believe.

      My supposed “choice” of my strong beliefs makes me worthy of eternal torture. True or false?

      What kind of “respect” is THAT? What kind of “disrespect” is it if you assert that somebody is so evil that they deserve a fate far worse than torturous death, and they DISAGREE vehemently.

      If a Nazi who is otherwise nice and has nothing against Jews personally thinks that Jews nonetheless deserve The Final Solution, what is a Jew to say? Should the Jew “respect” that belief?

      You are saying that non-Christians deserve something far worse than a Holocaust—a fate far worse than the genocide Hitler perpetrated.

      That doesn’t sound very respectful to me. And I don’t think it’s “disrespectful” of me to point that profound lack of respect on your part.

    189. 12:07 pm Paul W. Says:

      Theresa writes: “Here’s a suggestion for you. Instead of hanging out on a blog trying to find answers to questions that you have, why don’t you take a world religion class; or better yet, go talk to a minister, priest, rabbi etc…”

      What makes you think I haven’t? I’ve explored Buddhism and Hinduism and Judaism and several other religions. I’ve meditated with Hindus, worked with Sikhs, and attended Synagogue as well as several kinds of Christian churches.

      Let me clue you in a little bit. I’ve studied the Bible and world religions quite a bit, in and out of classes. I’ve read dozens of books on religion and philosophy, and more than a few specifically on the Bible, Christianity, and the “historical” Jesus. I’ve studied philosophy at the undergraduate and graduate levels. I’m friends with a couple of Christian ministers, one of whom I’ve gone on the radio and discussed theology with. I’m also friendly with a couple of rabbis, and anthropologists who work with stone-age people in the Amazon basin and study their religion.

      Many Christians seem to think that atheists just don’t know about Christianity. Most atheists I know are actually more knowledgeable about Christianity and the Bible than most Christians. Most are former Christians, and more than a few are former seminarians who very seriously studied the Bible and found that the more they knew, the less they could believe it.

      By and large, we are not people who haven’t “heard the Word of God.” We are mostly people who’ve been there and done that, and can’t believe that stuff anymore.

      The ministers and rabbis I know realize that I know more about the Bible, theology, and philosophy than the vast majority of their congregants. And they realize that the Bible isn’t and can’t be all true, because it is internally contradictory. It clearly contains large helpings of myth and political screeds written by different people at different times. If there’s any divine inspiration behind it at all, it isn’t uniform—the Bible is not the 100% divinely dictated word of God. No way.

      If you’re actually open-minded and interested, I suggest that you read a good book or two on the Bible by non-inerrantist Biblical scholars. (A great one to start with is “Who Wrote the Bible?”, by Richard Elliot Friedman.) And a book or two about the scientific study of religion. (An excellent book is “Religion Explained” by Pascal Boyer—it explains why people tend to be religious whether or not what they believe is true, and why it’s mostly not.)

      Atheists are typically far more open-minded than Christians. Most Christians don’t seem to be able to fathom this, because they’re SO closed-minded—they are so sure that they’re right that the only explanation for a disagreement is that the OTHER person must be closed-minded or incredibly ignorant.

      Tell me, Theresa, how many seriously atheist books have you read? Have you read “The Blind Watchmaker” or “Who Wrote the Bible?” or “Why I Am Not a Christian” or “The Case Against God?” or “Religion Explained?” or “Breaking the Spell” or “Tower of Babel”? (All excellent books, by the way.)

      Have you read many Buddhist and Hindu and Mormon and Scientologist books? How many other religions have you seriously studied? Have you ever meditated in an ashram, and been seriously open and questing about it? I have.

      Please do not assume that I’m ignorant or lazy, okay? I’m a scientist and a scholar. I read and think and discuss things with experts, and have done so for decades.

      Please do not indulge in cheap psychoanalysis of my motives—e.g., guilt, doubt, etc. I could just as easily take cheap shots at your psychology, and do a much better job of it. (I have graduate-level training in psychology, among other things.)

      I am interested in religion because it’s an important social and political phenomenon, and because I’m fascinated by philosophy and psychology.

      It’s particularly interesting to me because I’m a good scientist, and like most good scientists, I am an atheist; there’s an imperfect but strong correlation there. But I live in a society that is mostly religious, and religion affects my life a lot—for example, it largely determines who will be President of the U.S., and whether I can state my views openly without being roundly condemned.

      As a member of a minority, it is always interesting to know what the majority thinks, what it thinks of you, and why it thinks that. It is also desirable to correct misconceptions. And sometimes that requires debunking myths—e.g., that non-Christians CHOOSE to go to Hell, or DESERVE to be tortured forever for that.

      If most of the people around you thought such vile things about you, and felt free to state them without fear of contradiction, I’ll bet you’d find that interesting, too.

    190. 12:10 pm Robin Says:


      I think Paul, like most of us (atheists, skeptics, agnostics), is not looking for answers to clarify his doubts or to straighten out his beliefs, more likely he’s demanding the believers present evidence of what they claim is the ultimate truth. I put an example before of must proof what, here’s another one, how about a prosecutor claiming one committed a crime as the absolute truth, wouldn’t he need evidence to prove such a statement?

      We, as a minority, are fed up with this current fundamentalist environment in the country. We’re tired of christians labeling everybody else as being wrong.

      Theresa, I have a question for you too (borrowing some of your words). If you are so sure that your “God” does exist, why do you spend your precious time in this blog trying to convince others to see through your christian lens. You would just dismiss it as ignorance of the “truth” and that would be the end of it. Seems to me that maybe you can’t comprehend how people can live and be happy, be purposeful and moral, without even bothering to aknowledge any god.

      I also ask you, why don’t you too take a world religion class? Open your eyes and mind, find out what other cultures believe seriously, and that those other religions view yours as a myth, as folksy tales — feels pretty uncomfortable being at the ‘wrong’ end, eh?

    191. 12:17 pm Megan Says:

      I will be praying for Ian, and all of you on this discussion. Call me what you like, but I know that the Bible is true and Jesus is real. He’s beautiful, and I’m sorry so many of you cannot see that. I care about you all and hope you all find Him someday.

    192. 12:27 pm Mandy Says:

      Paul- I didn’t say that I respect your opinion. I respect the fact that you HAVE an opinion. You won’t going to a place of “eternal torture” because you don’t believe in it, right? God does not run Hell- Satan does after he was condemned there. For a person that doesn’t believe in God, Jesus, or Hell, you’re becoming increasingly defensive.

      Robin- Yes, I am going to Heaven as a matter of fact. I have recognized Jesus Christ as my Savior, and I will be seated at his right hand when my time is over. I have a guarantee, it’s my faith. Yes, Jesus came back from there. That’s what Easter is about. I suppose you don’t recognize that either. People like you think it exists only to color eggs and eat jellybeans. I don’t need to prove it. It has been proven to me through my faith in the Lord.

      Robert- Your body may feed the Earth, but your soul will live eternally: in Heaven if you choose.

    193. 1:23 pm Robin Says:

      Mandy wrote: “God doesn’t send people to Hell. These people chose to go there.”

      Then again, the “Big Guy” ceases its “I-created-I-control-everything-out-there” position whenever something not-so nice is pegged to him? Don’t christians state that God took care and planned your complete life since before you began to exist? (the most used phrase against abortion) How come can a mere human choose something outside of God’s plan for him?

      I see this all the time, example, a guy gets involved in a car accident that almost kill him, it was somebody’s else fault but nevertheless there is this guy all wrecked in a hospital room — christian would be quick to point out that God spared his live, that it was a divine miracle — but are also quick to dissmiss questioning if it wasn’t God in the first place who put him in harm’s way, or worse, who caused the crash to later keep the guy alive to win sympathy… isn’t that hypocrisy from this ‘loving’ god? (in case this god indeed does exist)

    194. 1:45 pm Theresa Says:

      For Paul W. and Robin,

      Per your questions regarding my education and experience with the subjects we are discussing; I am extremely educated. I hold a Masters in psychology and religious studies so yes, I have extensive knowledge of what I am talking about. I am not just talking out of my rear end. I have studied many different avenues of religion including atheism, buddhism, LDS, as well as many others. Now, I am not a scientist by any means but I am extremely educated so please do not insinuate that I know nothing of which I speak. And yes, Paul, being an avid reader, I have read dozens of different books on different religions. I have read the Book of Mormon, I have read books on scientology as well as visiting the scientology center and speaking with other scientologists, and I have studied the phenomena of so called “devil worship”.

      Also, I am not indulging in “cheap psychoanalysis” of your feelings. It’s laughable that I would even entertain the notion of attempting to psychoanalyze someone on an online chat forum. As if. I have far too much common sense.

      Paul, for whatever reason, you are very defensive when it comes to discussing these subjects. You are also very rude when it comes to taking “cheap shots” and insinuating that you are more educated than I am. There is more than academic education; there is LIFE education. I have BOTH. life and academic, (including several honors for my religous and psychological studies when I graduated). You seem to only be able to view christianity and religion from a scientific point of view. Take your beliefs and have them. STOP trying to convince other people to view things the way you do. LIVE AND LET LIVE.


      There is nobody on this earth who can unequivocally prove the existence of God because it’s impossible. It’s called faith and that’s what I have. There is however; evidence of God all over the place. Look at nature, look at creation… The proof is everywhere; you just have to be openminded enough to see it from more than just a logical and practical persepective. Also, I am not on here trying to convince everybody that christianity is the right way to go. If you had bothered to read my other posts (which you probably didn’t), you would have seen that I stated that I respect everybody; regardless of their beliefs. I never once implied that non believers could not be happy and fulfilled without God. All I said is that non believers are going to hell and that’s the truth and if you can’t deal with it, too bad. Truth is truth and sometimes it hurts.

    195. 2:36 pm Theresa Says:


      You have a lot to learn and it is very sad indeed that you choose to view incidents so negatively. Why can’t you just accept that some have a differnt viewpoint than you and let it go? I will never understand why you are so vehemently sure that God does not exist. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that happens; no matter what. There is a time to live and a time to die and time for everything in between. Again, it’s faith that you must have that everything that happens, happens because God planned it that way. It’s not so hard to understand.

    196. 2:39 pm Mandy Says:

      Theresa- “….non believers are going to hell and that’s the truth…” I’m glad that someone else knows.

      Robin- God doesn’t control every thought and movement that you have or make. God has a will for you and you are physically able to go against it if you wish. Humans have a way of interfering with the will of God.

    197. 2:40 pm Robin Says:

      Mandy, the greeks of the ancient times also honestly believed that their many gods lived in the Olympus mount, and they felt they need not to prove it… it was too clear in front of their eyes; those up there were responsible for everything that happened down here. They also believed in their hell (greek hell’s god was Hades, sounds familiar?), or is it better said they were among the firsts to come out with the idea. That was until they were imposed a different religion by invaders. Same thing happened in the Americas and in many places around the world throughout the time.

      Let’s put it simpler, take two believers of the very same god, a christian claiming Jesus is god himself and a jew who claims otherwise. In your point of view, who’s right? Now, how can you be certain of your pick? You know that the very same arguments you boast could be used on behalf of the other side?

      Megan, you can pray for me if you please; it’s your time and thoughts after all. I personally think prayers are a waste. As I said before, if this god really planned and took care of the details of our complete lives, nothing we humans do will change his plans, why bother then? …or is it nothing is taken care of to begin with? hmm.

      Paul, congrats! Very compelling clarification of Theresa’s remarks.

    198. 2:40 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Mandy, Easter is a pagan holiday. The early church used it and the winter soltice to assimulate the pagans of Europe. This is historical fact that any theology student would know. And since the Bible is inerrant you will not be admitted to heaven because you, I assume, are a woman. Revelations 14:1-4. Oh, SNAP!

    199. 3:19 pm Robin Says:

      Theresa, I appreciate your respectful comments. I also respect other people’s beliefs, the case is that just donesn’t stop me from questioning them. My wife herself is christian as are many of my friends. They also respect what I think but they question it too. From time to time we engage in this kind of discussion and part ways peacefully because there’s no absolute winner. Faith is something complicated and abstract. It’s very purposeful too, since people tend to grab it in defense of defenseless arguments when they feel cornered. I can say I jump so high I can actually touch the clouds, would you believe me out of faith? If it were written in the Bible it would’ve been a ‘miracle’ nothing less.

      From Theresa: “There is however; evidence of God all over the place. Look at nature, look at creation… The proof is everywhere; you just have to be openminded enough to see it from more than just a logical and practical persepective.”

      Yes, I look at nature every single day. Nope, I don’t see any ‘creation’ there. I see what eons of evolution have come up with (many good, many not so good, many downright wrong). If I were to believe in the creation idea which version should I choose? The judeochristian? the islamic? the mythological greek? the mayan? the shinto? the aztec? the hindu?…..
      Theresa, is you the one who should be openminded and see beyond your theological point of view? Shouldn’t you stop and think for yourself honestly and ask yourself sincere straight-to-the-point questions? For example, the simplest one (yet the one with biggest implications), if all this is too complex and apparently so well thought out that it HAS to be created, and indeed God created it, then who or what created God in the first place? This is a question for you to answer with yourself. There’s no point trying to give an answer in this forum… I know for experience it’s an endless battle. Let’s stay in the course here.

    200. 4:21 pm Theresa Says:


      You’re right. Nobody can answer this.
      “Who created God in the first place”? is a question that centuries of people have been trying to answer. I know I can’t.

      This is what I DO know.

      1) I know that God does indeed exist. I have seen evidence of it in my own life and the miracles he creates in me every day.

      2) I pray to Him every night and every day to guide my life in the direction that he has planned for me. I understand that “my” life is not really mine; it is His and my physical body is just the “car” if you will, for my soul.

      3)I have an enourmous amount of faith in Him and I do not question His words. I know in my heart that what happens, happens for a reason and we may not always like, agree with, or understand the reasons but they are ALWAYS just.

      4) I have love and respect for all people because we are all human beings and we are all on this planet together. Life is too short for hatred and animosity.

      5) There are some phrases I live by.
      A) “What is a prophet of man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?”
      B)”As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord”
      c) “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son; so that whoever believes in him shall not perish; but have eternal life”.

      I’m sorry but I don’t see anyone else making that kind of sacrifice; do you?

      I am certainly open-minded and have the ability to see WAY beyond just my point of view. It seems to me that you are pretty open-minded yourself and I can appreciate and respect that. Peace to you and yours. Theresa

    201. 4:50 pm Holy S*&% !! Says:

      When did US magazine become a preachy forum. This is a Jerry Falwell production. Save the preaching for Sunday and a real pulpit… CHRIST !

    202. 8:00 pm the fact is Says:


      By EONS don’t you mean an infinite regress? A cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause and on and on and on and on……..

      You have to stop it somewhere? Where does it stop? You eventually have to say an uncreated force set all creation in motion.

    203. 8:02 pm the fact is Says:

      “Yes, I look at nature every single day. Nope, I don’t see any ‘creation’ there. I see what eons of evolution have come up with (many good, many not so good, many downright wrong). ”

      By EONS don’t you mean an infinite regress? A cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause that has a cause and on and on and on and on……..

      You have to stop it somewhere? Where does it stop? You eventually have to say an uncreated force set all creation in motion.

      BTW don’t use the right or left caret symbol or it cuts off your text. I realized that already but just got reminded of it again.

    204. 8:02 pm the fact is Says:

      last reply was to robin

    205. 8:19 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Oh my Lack of God Theresa! Do you even own a Bible? The word is PROFIT not PROPHET. Your misquote makes no sense. Mark 9:36 “For what shall it PROFIT a man, if he shall gain the whole world, AND lose his own soul.” Please in the future, if you want to quote scripture, MAKE SURE OF WHAT IT SAID.

    206. 9:20 pm Theresa Says:

      Ok Elvis… Why don’t you just head back to Graceland now and leave the promised land….

    207. 9:51 pm Theresa Says:

      If I were you, I’d be more worried about LIVING it than SPELLING it. At least I have the important part right; I live it.

    208. 10:32 pm Paul W. Says:

      “You eventually have to say an uncreated force set all creation in motion.”

      No, in fact, you don’t. You’re making an invalid argument.

      Clearly, our intuitions about universal causation break down somewhere. There is at least one “thing” that doesn’t have a cause, even if that thing is just the totality of everything.

      That violates our normal intuitions about causality—we generally assume, incorrectly, that for any x, it’s reasonable to ask “why x?”

      It turns out that can’t be the case, so all bets are off when it comes to the ultimate question of whether or why the universe or God has always existed, or whether or why it suddenly popped into existence.

      It is not reasonable to assume that there was an uncaused cause—stuff may have always been here, and each event, no matter how far in the past, may have been caused by an event still further in the past. That idea is not illogical; it’s just counterintuitive.

      And the totality of all that stuff, whether it had a unique starting point or not, may and perhaps must be “uncaused”—including God, if there is one, or not if there’s not.

      Something profoundly weird-seeming must be true; either stuff has always been around, and “why?” is not even a good question despite our instincts about it, or some weird thing just doesn’t have a cause.

      That weird thing might be a God, or just something that’s just very weird in a very ungodlike way, like quantum physics. Maybe quantum physics “just is,” and that’s just the way it is, and our space-time continuum is an inflated bubble that popped randomly out of the quantum vacuum, as sometimes happens.

      Maybe our assumptions about each “thing” having a cause are just an artifact of our evolving and learning in a universe in which that’s a reasonable approximation for most purposes—WITHIN space-time, events seem to be caused by other events.

      (And in light of modern physics, that assumption is much less obvious than it used to be. Every quantum event is uncaused, in a sense—or rather, it has a caused part or aspect plus a random, uncaused part. Causation ain’t what it used to be.)

      But outside of space-time, the question of causation in the usual sense is strictly meaningless.

      Expecting the totality of everything to have a cause is a category mistake, like expecting there to be an “up” and a “down” at every point in space-time, e.g., in intergalactic freefall.

      Just as “up” and “down” only make sense in the context of a gravitational field, “causes” or “is caused by” only make sense within a particular space-time continuum.

      You can’t expect expectations deveoped for understanding things within space-time to be valid outside of space-time.

      There can’t be a really good answer to the question of what causes everything, no matter how good a question it seems to be. To expect there to be one just shows that you don’t understand the fundamental limits of the idea of causation.

      By the way, Immanuel Kant, a Christian philosopher, decisively showed this over 200 years ago. Most philosophers since then have accepted that the “first cause” argument is ultimately a bogus, even if it sounds obviously great at first. (As are all of the supposed “logical proofs” of God’s existence a la Aquinas.)

      Most philosophers now are atheists, but even most of the ones who are Christian don’t think you can prove the existence of God by such simple arguments.

      Most Christian philosophers think you have to have faith, not expect a logical proof—and if you did have proof, it would make faith moot, so if you expect such decisive proofs you’re not only barking up the wrong tree but maybe even committing a sin.

      Of course, there are a few Christian philosophers who keep trying to salvage the traditional “logical proofs” of the existence of God, and a whole bunch of fundamentalist theologians and Christian apologists who keep grasping at the same old straws.

    209. 11:28 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      You prove my point for me, T. How can you live the word when you don’t even know what the word means? You didn’t just misspell it you plain got it wrong. So according to the Holy text, Revelations 22 to be exact, you have been removed from the book of life and lost your condo in paradise. See you in hell.

    210. 10:18 am Mandy Says:

      Elvis- I really don’t care about “historical fact.” Easter is the 3rd day after the death of Lord Jesus when he rose from the grave. You seem to be quite well-versed in the word of God. Why is it that you missed that part? Also- Revelations 14:1-4 does not say anything about me not getting into Heaven because I am a woman.

      Jude 1:21-22
      “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of out Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be merciful to those who doubt.”

    211. 11:10 am Mandy Says:

      sorry -”our…”

    212. 1:08 pm Theresa Says:


      Show me EXACTLY in Revelations 22 where it says that I am going to hell because I misquoted. Where is it? I don’t see it.

    213. 2:32 pm valerie Says:

      mankind is in SAD shape . You all have no idea what you are saying. Some call yourselves Christians but say you do not believe in God or Jesus. For your information that does not even make since. One day every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ IS Lord. My prayer is that all IAN followers will repent and follow Jesus not IAN…

    214. 2:34 pm Theresa Says:

      I knew it… Can’t think of anything so says nothing. Typical of a non-believer. LOL

    215. 3:34 pm valerie Says:

      mankind is in SAD shape. One day EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue will confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. That means all of you IAN followers as well. I hope you come to know the TRUTH while there is still time… Today is the day of salvation!!!!!!!!!

    216. 3:34 pm Mandy Says:

      Valerie- you are 100% correct!

    217. 3:54 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Hmmm, maybe reading and comprehension were not part of your GED exam.

    218. 4:05 pm Paul W. Says:

      Theresa says: “I knew it… Can’t think of anything so says nothing. Typical of a non-believer.”

      While I think that that Elvis’s spelling flame was quite silly and uncalled-for, I object to the “Typical of a non-believer” part of your comment.

      (If I characterized “typical” Christians in that way, I’d be accused of persecuting Christians.)

    219. 4:32 pm Theresa Says:


      Whatever. I have more education and training in my little pinky than you have in your whole body. I have a Masters. What do you have? I mean, besides a mouth that never stops running and a bad attitude…. What a silly little person you are.

      Paul W.

      I apologize for that remark. It was uncalled for. Sometimes my sarcasm gets the better of me.

    220. 4:51 pm Robin Says:

      Valerie, salvation from what?
      From my free will?… my own opinion?… from being able to reason?… from judging based upon circumstances and logic and not by what some old book says?… from not following some cult rules and not making rich their leaders?
      Nope, thank you very much!

      BTW, whose “TRUTH?” yours? the self-proclaimed christian version?… ’cause in case you don’t know there are several truths out there, and they all claim to be that, the TRUTH. mmm, who’s lying then?

    221. 5:24 pm Robin Says:

      Ah, yesterday I watched the movie finally, it was so-so; sometimes very interesting, sometimes tiring… they could have shortened and made the ending somewhat better (I haven’t read the book, nor I think I can, I don’t have the time for that).
      No wonder the church was barking, particularly the catholic church, in the movie they present many theories as historic facts, and not many people would swallow that thick book that is the novel, but anyone can watch a movie, and there is its share of people who believe in whatever is fed to them… even more with such spectacular graphics depicting supposedly historic moments and decoding of Da Vinci’s paintings. I personally think th movie will shake the beliefs of not just a few. Those with strong faith and educated will see it as just mere entertainment.

    222. 7:21 pm the fact is Says:


      Robin thanks for that honest comment. Your comment brings out the truth of the matter which is somehow overlooked. There are many movies made that display anti-christian themes and yet christians don’t protest them. The problem with this movie is it represents something as fact which is clearly in error. And then they try to downplay it by saying it is a work of fiction. It seems to me that Dan Brown has mixed fiction and fact in such a way as to make it indiscernable between the two. Dan Brown get’s called down for his lack of integrity on the matter and his misrepresentation and christians take the blame for pointing it out? Christians even point these things out in each other. It is consistent.

    223. 7:45 pm mb Says:

      k well im not rlly a fan of this guy ian ok but i have faith enough 2 no his opinion also, i dont beleive that the bible is like fiction but w/e thats my point of view and i beleive in God but i still respect those who dont n all. come on ppl beleive what u want n like its just a movie like i always say no one knows for sure no one of all humans has da answer not even stupid scientitist r w/e there called. its called the mystery of faith ok so just i dunno beleive wat u want…oh n i DO beleive that God walk in water cuz HES perfect and can do anything he can cuz he can do miracles lol ahhh religion…a big subject!! dont beleive all u hear. and also seeing isnt beleiving, beleving is seeing;):P bye lol

    224. 7:54 pm Jaysin Says:

      He’s smarter then I thought. If you like reading the bible, you may also like just as justified books like Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy tales.

    225. 8:49 pm the fact is Says:

      mb you say it is just a movie? So if a movie came out saying that christians are all cannibal’s or that they all practice incest, would that be just a movie too? Or maybe if the movie was a mis-resprentation of you, saying that you are a cannibal or practice incest, that would be ahem, just a movie too eh?

      The cannibal/incest part of my statement is a reference to ancient christianity where christians were accused of such things. AKA more misrepresentation. But in this case it got them killed.

    226. 8:51 pm the fact is Says:

      more to mb… but hey after all the things MADE UP about christians was just a story right? Misrepresentation should be corrected.

    227. 11:05 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Theresa, You may have a “Master’s” degree, but you don’t know the difference between the words profit and prophet. Speaking of which, mb should invest in a dictionary. Also Theresa no matter how much “education” and er, “training” you may have. You don’t know me so your insults merely make you sound like the silly one. You know almost as little about me as you do the Bible.
      This blog is about what Ian McKellen said about the Bible being fictional. You can believe anything you want but the text cannot be denied. Time and again the Bible states absurdities and contradictions too numerous to be listed. I know because I have the lists AND the Bible in front of me. That way, when I quote scripture, I get it right.

    228. 11:15 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Oh, and Paul… let me point out once again, T’s misuse of the word prophet for profit was not just a spelling error. She clearly did not know the difference and did not bother to look up the passage. Silly and un-called for? maybe. But why do I feel so justified?

    229. 12:14 am cat Says:

      I work at a church as a youth leader. I read The Da Vinci code and loved it, did I immeadiatly considerite the truth and model my life around it? No. I’ve read the bible from cover to cover… do i believe it is “god’s word” and the truth? No. The bible was written by man, so was The Da Vinci code. People should stop being sheep and question everything they hear, see, read, etc.
      I think it’s really sad to see both Christians and non-Christians judging eachother and tearing one-another down.
      Did Jesus walk on water? No one can say for sure.
      Did Jesus marry Mary Magdalene? possibly.
      Either way everyone has a right to believe whatever they want and do whatever they want.
      And to say “I’ll pray for non-believers souls” is disgusting. Don’t hold that over someone’s head like you are better than them., because you aren’t. Get over it.

    230. 3:03 am Cameron Says:

      Not to rain on anyone’s parade, but the Bible cannot be the inspired Word of God.

      The collection of texts that comprise the Old Testament were codified in the 7th - 8th centuries BCE following the Exile of the people of Israel in Babylon.

      Prior to that, the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch) existed as a purely oral tradition that was passed down throughout the generations. This tradition was arguably rooted in Canaanite polytheism in which YHWH was a warrior-storm god of south Elom, subserviant to El, the patriarch god whose name is still visible today in IsraEL.

      To return to the oral tradition of the Pentateuch, it was continually modified to reflect the times. For example, the Exodus (which supposedly occured in or around 1550BCE), references sites that were contemporaneous with 800BCE, such as the city of Tanis in Egypt, which wasn’t founded until 500 years after the Exodus occured.

      In light of this, how can evangelical Christians assert that the Bible equates to some kind of sacred and immutable tradition? Instead, it is a didactic piece, designed to provide a set of guidelines for the people of Israel.

    231. 11:39 am Robin Says:

      Good point made by Cat. I realy appreciate her(?) openness.

      Interesting mini-lecture by Cameron.
      Every day one learns something new. I’ll do my own ‘research’ on this topic. I stated before how many stories in the Bible were adapted from earlier accounts and legends; Newsweek has published some interesting materials on the subjet, as have done Discovery, NG and History channels. Of course, I don’t take everything for a fact even if they present it as the ultimate conclusions of science and history. The past will always be shadowy no matter how much we try to clarify it — it’s kinda my beloved coffee, it seems that every week a new study contradicts what was believed as a fact the week before… go wonder!

    232. 12:04 pm Robin Says:

      “The fact is” you wrote:
      “The cannibal/incest part of my statement is a reference to ancient christianity where christians were accused of such things. AKA more misrepresentation. But in this case it got them killed.”
      Allow me to remember you, the christians later were at the other end of such a circumstance, but worse and to a larger scale. The Inquisition tortured and killed thousands and the conquistadors wiped out many civilizations of the Americas and massacred and enslaved many others, all in name of their solo god. “Yeah, those pagan animals sacrificed humans for their blood-thirsty fake gods, let’s killed them all and teach ‘em a lesson there’s only one god who needs no blood sacrifices!”

      Luckily, there aren’t such atrocities today… or there are?…

    233. 12:25 pm Elvis is a Bible Thumpin Nutcase.... LOL Says:


      Get a life already. You must be REALLY bored if you have nothing better to do than to point out misquotes on a online blog. LOL… And don’t refer to me as “T”. I have a name. If you are going to send me comments, at least use my proper name. Calling me T makes you sound like the uneducated, bible thumping nutcase that you are.

      It does not matter if I misquoted. So what? Also, if you look in different versions of the Bible, that particular phrase IS quoted differntly in each one. I know what I’m talking about. My Masters happens to be in psychology and religious studies. I know more about the Bible that you will ever know.

      It’s funny that you have nothing better to do with your time than to sit and argue with people you don’t even know over a subject you are CLEARLY not knowledgeable about. You are in a chat room full of intelligent, well-educated people and you stick out like a sore thumb. LOL…

    234. 12:32 pm Theresa Says:

      Ok Elvis. That’s sad. You are sitting in front of a computer with a Bible and lists of Biblical mistakes in front of you. Oh my gosh… I can’t believe that this is the highlight of your day; on a chat forum, criticizing and trashing others. There is nothing more to say. What a sad, unproductive member of society you are…

      Here’s some advice. Get off the computer, go outside, get some fresh air and enjoy nature the way God intended. If you actually go out and LIVE life, you’ll have more to say ABOUT IT than just the uneducated dribble you’ve dropped on us so far.

    235. 2:41 pm the fact is Says:

      Elvis wrote:
      “This blog is about what Ian McKellen said about the Bible being fictional.”

      Elvis wrote again:
      “Oh, and Paul… let me point out once again, T’s misuse of the word prophet for profit was not just a spelling error. She clearly did not know the difference and did not bother to look up the passage. Silly and un-called for? maybe.

      And then Elvis wrote again:
      “But why do I feel so justified?”

      Why do you feel so justified? Well let’s see, you enjoy pointing out off topic issues, then reminding Theresa that this is a blog about Ian M. And then you preceed to make more off topic comments. I think you feel no justification. You just find satisfication in being annoying.

      So you have it, Theresa doesn’t know the difference between the two words, and you are not consistent with yourself. Do you still feel justified?

    236. 4:44 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      Yes… I do…

    237. 5:52 pm the fact is Says:

      Elvis I think you are a good example of the kettle calling the pot black.

    238. 6:15 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      I know you are, so what am I?
      Therea has continued to bear false witness although she claims to be educated and a Christian. So who is being inconsistant? Isn’t Christianity about love and forgiveness?

    239. 6:48 pm the fact is Says:

      Elvis, let’s see, is it about love and forgiveness? Hmmm? Why would christians need forgiveness for? Is it possible they need forgiveness because they are imperfect? Christians are imperfect. So what is inconsistent about that? Is it possible that an educated person can make a mistake? Or do you really think that educated people don’t make mistakes?

    240. 8:05 pm Mandy Says:

      Just and Ian said- walking on water is an act of faith. If you believe that it happened, you have faith. If you don’t believe it, you obviously lack faith.

    241. 8:37 pm the fact is Says:

      Robin Says:
      “Allow me to remember you, the christians later were at the other end of such a circumstance”

      Well that is one thing that I defintly may get a chance to study more of. I study history as matter of hobby so do a lot of reading of it. In anycase christians roughly before 300 a.d. were not anti-war, but they were certainly pacificsts. That would be another one of the reasons they were presecuted. In anycase it is a odd turn around that what was being persecuted became the persecutors.

    242. 9:45 pm Elvis as Buddha Says:

      You really missed the point, Fact-less. I was saying Mother Theresa chose to belittle and insult from one side of her mouth while claiming to be a Christian. Also if she is indeed educated as she claims, her insults are not those of anyone with half a wit. she refers to me as a “Bible- thumper”, doesn’t she know that term refers to evangelicals who wave and pound their Bibles without bothering to read them? That sounds more like her.
      Futhermore, she states I sit in front of a computer with a Bible and Biblical mistakes. She has no eveidence of this.
      She called me a sad, unproductive member of society. She has no evidence of this.
      You may not agree with me, but how can you defend her? You tried to take apart what I said although your indoctrination would not allow you to understand me. You thought was attacking Christianity outright when I was asking a retorical question meant to point out the hypocrisy. Why don’t you take apart what Theresa has said? Insults and falsehoods about people she does not know is like quoting a book you have not read.

      O H , S N A P !

    243. 10:48 pm the fact is Says:

      Elvis, what do I need to know about you? A few folk here can see thru your silliness and have said so. The only person here that doesn’t seem to get the point is you.

    244. 2:15 am Theresa Says:


      Oh honey, PLEASE get a dictionary…

      It’s not retorical, it’s rhetorical.
      It’s not eveidence, it’s evidence.

      You could also use some serious help with grammar and punctuation. You are so completely laughable… Talking about me and the way I write things and you CAN’T EVEN SPELL BASIC WORDS THAT A 5 YEAR OLD WOULD KNOW. I am laughing my head off right now. OH SNAP on you sweetie… If you are going to try to get the better of someone, at least learn how to spell first.. It kind of breaks your whole argument otherwise. How old are you? 12 or 13? You are obviously not an adult.

      Elvis says “She states I sit in front of a computer with a Bible and Biblical mistakes. She has no evidence of this”

      Look at your above comment and I quote “I have the lists AND the Bible right in front of me”. You are so lame that you can’t even remember what you say from one comment to the next. I am sorry but you ARE a sad and unproductive member of society; all the evidence I need of that is right here on this blog. Go away. You’re annoying everybody online.

    245. 1:39 pm Theresa Says:


      As per your comments, I am not a Bible Thumper… I have read the Bible and have a very good understanding of it. Unlike you, I don’t just talk out of my rear end with nothing to say.

      I have not belittled nor insulted anyone. I have stated my opinions clearly and openly as does everyone. I have been respectful and truthful in everything that I have said on here.

      I am not a hypocrite in any way, shape, or form. I am a human being and therefore and subject to making mistakes, however; I do try my best to live my life the way God intended. I may not always succeed but at least I try and that’s the important thing. I certainly have more meaningful statements to make than criticizing and trashing others’ beliefs the way you do.

      You have done nothing but insult and belittle me since I came on the forum. Don’t you think it’s time that you found something else to do? Do you have a job or a hobby or somewhere you could channel all your negative energy into? No, I didn’t think so. It’s sad that to some people, their computer is their whole life and they feel the need to live vicariously through it.

      “the fact is” said it all. Thanks.

    246. 1:40 pm Theresa Says:

      Sorry, it’s therefore AM, not therefore AND…..

    247. 6:07 am Becky Says:

      Why do all Christians & those who strongly believe a book-the bible- always take shelter behind “you’ll rot in hell” kind of statements?

      Why the urge to only threaten….not explain, mind you, just threaten you over what MIGHT happen once you die….which NOBODY know about.

      Why is death such an obsession???? I’ve heard all preachers & ministers use that carrot……

      And less said about Islam, better. They die quickly to go to heaven….I wonder why even bother to come to earth again.

    248. 12:25 pm usedtobelieve Says:

      Do you really believe we are going to hell?

      I was born and raised in a Christian home. I was loved and cherished and well sheltered. The first time I questioned my faith was when I was a young teen. A Pastor in our church said, “40,000 children will die this day of starvation, neglect and war. And many of them will spend eternity in hell.” The New Testament says only children of Christian parents are sanctified. If you believe exactly what the Bible says, you must believe that Children born of non-Christian parents are going to hell.

      A couple years later I burned myself while helping build a fire at Church camp and the assistant pastor said, “You know the pain you felt? Multiply that times 100 and you get the severity of the pain non-believers will experience for all eternity.” I went to my cabin cried for hours.

      If you fundamentally believe in the Bible, you must believe that only those who proclaim Jesus as Lord will go to heaven. The rest of us?

      Later I questioned, “Why did God create us knowing only a billion or so would make it to heaven and the rest would suffer for all eternity?”

      As a mother whose love it not supposed to be as great as God’s, I would choose not to have children at all if I knew even two of the six (or worse 4 out of the 6) would suffer any kind of pain for any prolonged period of time.

      Today I have come to the conclusion that I have too much love inside of me to believe in a faith that believes in hell.

      I’m at peace today because I can love everyone for who they are, I no longer worry about someone being lost or going to hell. I also do good, I’m kind and loving, I reach out to those in need and give whenever I can. And I always treat others the way I want to be treated. I don’t do it to earn rewards in heaven or to have my own prayers answered. I do right by others simply because it’s the right thing to do.

    249. 2:12 am usedtobelieve Says:

      Is Paul W. around? I wouldn’t blame you if you moved on. I wish I could take you out for coffee sometime. I really want to know how you found peace as an atheist? The same thought processes that won’t allow me to believe in the Bible, also won’t allow me to believe that this life is an accident. It doesn’t make sense that the balance the universe offers so that life can exist here could have just happened. But than again, if God created us who created him? As I think you said more eloquently than I… “If he just “is” maybe in the same breath, we just “are”.

      It’s late… good night all.

    250. 4:04 pm One Says:

      To Paul W. and usedtobelieve,

      You think TOO much. Stop overanalyzing everything and just accept what is. You will be much happier when you drop the cynicism and simply accept what is. Both of you are looking for scientific evidence and answers that you are not going to find in a scientific journal. The answer lies in the realm OUTSIDE of where the mind is able to go. Stop questioning and analyzing and just ride the ride. Your lives will be much more enjoyable. Bye now. Peace.

    251. 8:26 pm mb Says:

      so da guy the fact r however replied 2 my comment i dont mean its jsut a movie as in we shouldnt care in all about w/e u said incestr w/e. wat i meant was its a movie but dat movie isnt gonna change my faith r wat i beleive in. cuz we all no dat some ppl will go watch da movie n questionned themlseves if God exist r not n dats were id replied its jsut a movie 2 some1…but it should come 2 dat point i dunno neways.

    252. 2:39 am usedtobelieve Says:

      This is way too long but I think some of you will find it interesting so give it a shot, or not.

      Anyway in response to One, I don’t look to science for answers. I learned years ago in my biology class at the university that the answers to life can not be found in science. Sure there are theories but when it comes to the question of how life began even the most renowned biologists can only guess.

      I’m not cynical any longer. I was but realized it didn’t do me or anyone else any good. Now I’m pretty positive and hopeful that one day I will find peace with my place in life.

      I do kind of wish Christians would realize how terrible their belief is for 80% of the earth’s population. They believe we made a choice when for me it wasn’t as much a choice as a matter of being. I could no longer believe. My mind and heart would not allow it. Coming to terms with the loss of my faith was very difficult since I loved Jesus and the Bible more than anything else for nearly 30 years. The belief that everything in life has a purpose and that there is a loving caring God watching out for me and those I love was invaluable. I miss it. I tried returning to my faith but I couldn’t do it. It no longer made any sense to me (I know, Christians, you think I’ve been blinded). What happened was I realized I’m too nice of a person to believe. I want to love and accept everyone and I don’t want anyone ever to go to hell.

      Yet, I still seem to be one of those “weak” people who longs for a purpose in life. I miss knowing that no matter what everything is going to be okay. Life is a little bit scary without faith which I think is the reason it’s been a part of humanity since the beginning of time.

      I do wish Believers would stop assuming that all non-believers have chosen to “reject Christ.” It’s not Jesus I’ve rejected. I wish everyone in the world was like Jesus. It is religion I rejected. An establishment created my man to control man. Read the papers and you’ll see that it’s still working. It’s working in Iran, Iraq, Israel and yes, even here in America.

      I know you won’t listen to me because I’m a non-believer which means I don’t know the truth. The thing is, I don’t want you to stop believing. I understand why you believe and I understand why you can’t or won’t allow your faith to be shaken. Believe me, minus the Old Testament, Revelations, hell and only One Way stuff, if I could believe I would. What I want is for you to stop thinking those that don’t believe are somehow being led by an evil force. Most of my friends are actually really good, honest and loving people. And I want you to please stop judging us and start really loving us. That’s what I want the most. Cause you know what? Even though I am not a Christian or a believer, Jesus still loves me, right? So, you should also, correct? So, please don’t condemn me or Ian, or Paul or anyone else to hell because really (even though we don’t believe in it) there is nothing worse you could do to us (eternal suffering?). If you knew me, you would never want me to go to hell. Can’t you just LOVE US and let us love you back?

    253. 9:44 am Mandy Says:

      usedtobelieve- I just want to tell you how much I respect your comments. They are the first ones that I have read with the same attitude as my own. And yes, Jesus loves you, no matter what. I myself am a Christian, but I respect the fact that you are not. As long as you are happy in your own life, I’m certainly happy for you.

    254. 2:54 pm valerie Says:

      CAT… you said you were a “youth leader” at a church… WHAT kind of church hires a youth leader that does not even believe the Bible to be true??? What exactly is your job at this “church” if you are not even teaching the Bible. What is your job there??? You said yourself that you did not even take the Bible for what it says.. Why bother???? What are you teaching????

    255. 6:55 pm usedtobelieve Says:

      Thanks Mandy. One of my best friends is a VERY strong Christian. After a couple years of trying to convert me I finally asked if she could just love me for me. Together we have found a mutual love and respect that goes beyond what we believe. Wouldn’t that be nice for all the world?

    256. 1:52 pm R Says:

      well well…. Ian had spoken what has been in my mind since ages ago, the bible is nothing more than a tall story…. and everyone’s goD is different. And i really don’t believe that jesus was anymore than a normal human being or even less, never goD’s son of coz

    257. 3:59 pm Mandy Says:

      Well, “R” that’s your opinion. I don’t share that with you. If you don’t believe that Jesus was God’s son, hopefully you believe in something.

    258. 7:40 pm T Says:

      All I can say is this…. There are many people on here that are on the fast track south and I pity each and every one of you. At least I can go to sleep at night knowing I am at peace with myself and God… Too bad not many of you can say the same.

    259. 11:46 pm Eric Says:

      The point is moot. There is no God.

    260. 2:00 am Cat Says:


      1. I work at a Nazarene church.
      2. My job is exactly what i said it was… a YOUTH LEADER. I’m 20 years old and I intern there helping the high school pastor LEAD teenagers. I councel them, talk to them, listen to them, basically just hang out with them.
      3. Nope, I do not take everything in the bible at face value, because that would be moronic. I think it has some great concepts that we can learn and better ourselves from. The pastor I work for and I both encourage our kids to question everything they hear, and to not be sheep. Like I said before, the Bible was written by men, so I do take everything I read from it with a grain of salt. Does that mean I take nothing from it? No, ofcoarse I do, that is why I work at a church.
      4. I hope I am teaching my kids that it is okay to question the church, that it is okay to have an open mind about subjects like gay marriage and abortion. I hope I am teaching them that believing in Christ doesn’t mean you have to believe everyone who doesn’t is going to hell. Mostly I just hope they know that I care about them.

      Well, I hope I’ve answered your questions. You sound very angry. I’m sorry I upset you so much.

    261. 2:45 am Bobo Says:

      “I will pray for him that he turns his beliefs the right way.”

      Wow… So, um, who exactly is in charge of deciding who’s beliefs are “right” anyway?
      You can BELIEVE whatever you want, but keep in mind there are many many assorted varieties of religious beliefs out there, many of which existed long before Christians, Hebrews, and whoever else.
      I prefer to believe what I read in caveman paintings, because they were there first.

    262. 11:03 am Mock Turtle Says:

      Guys, Sir Ian was just trying to lighten things up. Good Lord. It’s amazing how many people there are out there without a sense of humor. And at least be familiar with McKellen in the first place before you criticize his comments - wry humor is his specialty.

      I am a Christian, but it makes me sick reading all these comments saying things like “Well, those of you who don’t believe weren’t brought up well, and you just must not know any better.” Just in case you know, criticizing people and patting them on the head like animals doesn’t make them want to listen to you. People like that make me ashamed to be Christian.

      Sir Ian has my full support. And Da Vinci Code is a MOVIE. When was the last time you watched a movie that was completely accurate? My guess is, it was a really boring one.

    263. 12:40 pm Mandy Says:

      In your opinion Eric.

    264. 4:10 pm Orthodox Socialist Says:

      What I’ve noticed is that a lot of these so-called believers are quick to say things like “see you in hell”, “your eternal afterlife is not guarenteed” etc.

      Being religious does NOT put you in a position to pass judgement yourself.

      What arrogance; who do you think you are? God? If you’re really so religious, think again before speaking for God Himself.

      If religous freedom isn’t your thing, you should consider moving to Saudi-Arabia.

    265. 2:49 pm Amit Sardal Says:

      You Rock Sir Ian!
      To everyone his own!

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