http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1001 seems to be setup to deny access (chmod 600)

I read it the other day and it seemed to indicate that CVS history was suggested as something they would find helpful.

There was also a suggestion that Apple does the minimum required to meet the GPL or LGPL.

"What can Apple do to improve that situation?" would be the question that I'd be asking if I had the ear of decision makers and a desire to be more involved in the community.

See http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/14.

This particular KDE developer's rant is that Apple's code (yours?) is inconsistent and is so difficult to merge into their CVS that they don't even bother.

It seems to me that Apple need to deal with this criticism, whether it was made fairly or not. Either this KDE developer is a bit over the top, or communication between Apple and this open source project need improving.

Expecting Apple to merge their code changes back into CVS so that it works perfectly in Konqueror is unrealistic. But it would be nice if the issue were acknowledged and all parties helped each other to work together. eg create scripts to convert Apple's KHTML/KJS code to be consistent with KDE's coding standards, etc.

Just my $0.02c.

I don't think the code changes are "always" interdependent. It may seem that way when you get a 6mb diff though, but obviously most changes we make are pretty small and self-contained (similar to the patches I posted for the Acid2 bugs).

As a Konqueror fan (And as someone considering buying an I book) I know I would appreciate anything that could be done to help the KHTML developers.

The easy way to fix this would be to maintain a public SVN/CVS server automatically mirroring content from Apple's internal CVS server. Since the Darwin folks gave up on that, and continue to stick with the APSL, I assume that it's a lost cause, though.

Dave,

What about allowing us to sign NDAs so we can look at the radar bugs that you guys are fixing? A lot of the patches and lines in the changelogs between code dumps simply say 'fixed radar #xxx' which means absolutely nothing to us.

Allowing us some method of access to the bug system would be a great help.

As Chris Lee puts it let a khtml developer sanitize those rdar:// things or start sending small patches to khtml-devel which explains what patch fixes i.e "instead of fix rdar://12455" say "fix infinite loop with a unclosed tag" etc would help much.

Personally, I feel that Apple should do its best to provide the KHTML team with the changes made to KHTML and only KHTML. Anything that is not strictly KHTML should remain with Apple.

The KHTML team has already benefited from Apple's use of the source by the recognition that has come with it. That said, ideally the relationship would continue to benefit the KHTML team. That way the engine not only gains increased exposure but also technical legitimacy. Both are necessary for widespread adoption.

And widespread adoption of the KHTML engine will only help Apple, as an increasing number of web sites test against the KHTML engine.

It is my understading the khtml is working on ver. 2.x and Safari is based on 1.x So I am curious how much apple code will help since it's based on an old rev.

Hi Dave, I started writing this comment but eventually it turned into a blog entry of its own and is at http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/view/1010
Like I said in the blog, personally I think that both teams need to finally have a real conversation. I'm sure we could setup a phone conference rather quickly.

Take a look at how the compiler team works with the GCC guys.

Two cents from a developer, small-scale open source advocate, and Macintosh owner:

1. Find a way to resolve the "development cycle impedence mismatch" between the KHTML team (which is not on a timeline) and the WebCore/Safari team within Apple (which is always working against a deadline). See Zach's blog entry for details.

2. Provide a way for Zach and/or the appropriate KHTML developers to attend WWDC so that everyone is able to meet face-to-face. A phone conversation would help (per Zach's blog), I'm sure, but meeting in person usually forces everyone to calm down and act/speak more rationally. I'm not sure if Apple should pay for them to fly out, but they could at least give them WWDC E-tickets so that they could attend (if interested).

Dave

I have no clue about all of this, and I have no idea how the KDE KHTML develop things, but why wasn't khtml spun off long time ago into it's own independent project so one trunk could be created (e.g, creating a khtml.org)

This is how Apple's GCC hackers and GNU hackers collaberate on GCC, no?

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I think the real source of hostility is from someone getting paid to fix bugs in KHTML, gets a lot of pats on the back for fixing them, and the KHTML guys get their face "rubbed in it" after the fact with a bunch of ready-made patches to fix their own code.

THAT is just my opinion, though.

Neo I suggest you actually go and read what the kde devs have said and have a look at the code that the safari devs have released before making ill-informed comments.

Dave, maybe a little offtopic, but I'm working on a webapp that makes use of Mozilla's support for native inline SVG in compound documents. Currently Safari is the only major browser I cannot support at the moment because there is no SVG support. (MSIE has no support either, but their proprietary VML solution has been a fine workaround.) Do the Safari developers have any current plans to implement native SVG?

To help users not thinking that Safari and Konqueror use the same engine, it will be a very good idea if you don't use "khtml" anymore in the CSS properties created for Safari (-khtml-opacity,...) and don't use it anywhere in the user-side (it exclude sources). What about -safari-.... ?

Moreover, precise in the website of Webcore http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/webcore/ that Webcore is a *fork* of KHTML (of Konqueror) and Webcore (of Safari) doesn't respect all the same W3C standards,.... It will prevent things like "Tested on Safari, so work on Konqueror".

Now for helping KHTML team, I let the team speak :)

"I think the real source of hostility is from someone getting paid to fix bugs in KHTML, gets a lot of pats on the back for fixing them, and the KHTML guys get their face "rubbed in it" after the fact with a bunch of ready-made patches to fix their own code.
THAT is just my opinion, though."

And you, are an idiot.

i think a lot of the flack hyatt and co. are receiving is a bit unfounded. the first thing you have to realize is that WebKit != KHTML, so merging code is a bit more of a hassle. i'm assuming this is similar to the FreeBSD/Darwin relationship, but you never hear anyone complaining about that.

second, i hear a lot of people refer to apple's WebKit as proprietary, which is about as far from the truth as you can get. If you aren't happy with the absence of some WebKit features in Konqueror, there are several projects that have created linux/gnustep WebKit browsers (i believe there was even a WebKit browser for yellowtab zeta at one point).

would it be a better situation if all WebKit changes could easily be merged back into KHTML and vice versa? of course, just as it would be great if every time KDE added a feature, it could effortlessly be added to Gnome, or every change to Photoshop could be easily incorporated into the GIMP, but WebKit is a different beast than KHTML, and to say that apple should go out of it's way to make WebKit changes work seamlessly in KHTML when WebKit is already open source seems a bit silly.

I'm going to have to agree with Luxury Lifestyle Links.

I know this is off topic but Dave for your next trick, now that you've blown Acid 2 out of the water how about you tackle SVG.... Seems Firefox is doing it and I see that as a challenge for Safari.

http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/05/05/01/1738202.shtml?tid=154&tid;=152&tid;=8

I think the codebases should be merged (with obvious abstraction of the platform-specific code, which each side would have to obviously implement on their own, but abstracted by identical function names, etc), would be ideal.

That way, with the main engine logic being identical to both entities, patches can come in from both sides and be useable immeadly by both parties, creating a speedier development cycle and progress for the browsers.

Whenever a change is made that requires platform-specific code - no problem, just make a stub function for the other side, and let them do their platform specific implementation of it. But the core engine logic changes would be identical and shared between the bases, making everyone more productive (and not waste time merging each other's patches together).

Though, I've not studied the differences now present between both codebases, and this idea might not exactly be feasable if they differ as tremendously (without proper abstraction) as some people imply.

I made a Resume Builder using the contenteditable tag. It works great in Safari 1.3+! I need to test it in FireFox DP 1.1+.

Read more here: http://www.walkerhamilton.com/562/resume-builder

The builder URL: http://www.signalfade.com/resume_builder

KDE exposes its CVS server (thus also the revision history), its bug database, test cases and its mailing list to Apple. All this has been used by Apple to build their product. Is it that hard to see what Apple could do (hint: two-way street)?

"I think the codebases should be merged" -- Myrd (above)

What is the benefit to Apple here? It would be a lot of work on their part (even if the actual merging was performed by KHTML developers -- still has to be tested, etc), without much gain.

Now that Adobe owns Macromedia, I'm curious about what the REAL future is of SVG? I guess Adobe could merge the two, but I'm thinking they're going to go all out with Flash and relegate SVG to the far back burner.

That KHTML guy sure is eating some sour grapes when it comes to Acid2. A bunch of obscure corner cases, huh? Heaven forbid someone actually try to implement a spec properly.

Another a little topic about designMode="on", does execCommand works in 1.3? Any example to do that?
That's only feature I am waiting for.

I fail to understand how signing an NDA will help anyone develop a free software program.

"What is the benefit to Apple here?"

Read my second paragraph in the above post. Basically, the changes the KDE people make will immediatly be available to Apple, and vice versa, meaning a faster development cycle. And since less time will be wasting porting patches around, everyone will be more productive.

Hi!

I don't know anything about anything, in fact all I know how to do is use a computer, but I'm going to blindly stick up for *INSERT FACTION HERE* and spew random insulting remarks regarding *OPPOSING FACTION*, because I love *MY FAVOURITE FACTION* so much. I will post on Slashdot and all of my favourite blogs to let the world know what I think, because it is important!

I would also like to take this golden opportunity to worship *FAVOURITE FACTION* because they blog about it and I think they should be made into minor deities.

Thank you.

PS. Even though I know nothing I am a real expert on the development of this Web Browser, as it is an Internet thing and I know my Internet very well.

thank you for that. was about to not post something similar due to excessive laziness, but you did it better :)

I think the first thing to do from the Apple side is to actually _talk_ to the khtml guys. You know, have a real conversation, come to akademy (the annual KDE conference, this year in malaga, spain), make phone calls, exchange ideas, discuss, ...

That would sure help to find way to cooperate. Posting one's idea on a blog is a first step but some real conversation need to occur.

I just loaded Tiger yesterday. Safari 2.0 would not open.
I followed a suggestion in Macfixit.com which indicated to
reinstall Safari 1.2.4 and rename the product Safari 124.
The old Safari still worked.
Safari 2.0: Apple has a page on getting the product to function.
It was of no help.
Something is missing from the product or the Computer.
Other folks have reported the same problem in several websites.
I can not reset Safari 2.0 as the product opens and closes giving the crash message.

I just wonder how realistic the KDE guys are being about this, in the back of my head. Qt is a cross-platform UI, sure - but it's no different than any other UI when it comes to the fact that it's embedded all the way through the application.

Is this about Apple modifying KHTML in ways that embed it with Apple UI calls? Is it any different than the KHTML guys embedding Qt in it?

Having seen Netscape's cross-platform troubles from the inside, I can see why my gut reaction is that "cross-UI + cross-platform = total mess", because Nav 4.0's cross-platform stuff was... complicated, to say the least. Littered with #IFDEFs and a complicated build system to make that work, where each team routinely broke the mac build, over and over again.

The fact that Apple has gone so far to build a Qt-alike API in order to keep KHTML in the state that WebCore is in - which the KHTML players seem to feel isn't good enough; isn't close enough to the Qt version - is already a huge gift that, given that past experience at Netscape, I have difficulty seeing as a long-term solution.

So what's the answer? Is Apple expected to build and maintain a full Qt emulation library, or switch to Qt entirely? Is that a reasonable expectation? If it is not a reasonable expectation, is KHTML willing to spend its resources abstracting away its dependency on Qt? And is *that* a reasonable expectation?

Or is Apple meant to do the abstraction, as they're the ones "who require it", and submit that back to the KHTML guys and hope that the dev team finds it acceptable? And if they don't, what happens next? And will all parties be willing to live with the performance problems, if any, that come from inserting that abstraction? Will both sides be willing to live with the resulting limitations that come from the differences between the systems?

Talking about how the two sides 'differ in politics' misses something fundamental - the codebases appear to have fundamentally differing strategies, and I can't help but feel that I'm not actually hearing proposed solutions from the KHTML side - just issues with what's being done.

I can't see how it can be done radically differently without endangering both products, as an outsider. The choice is either to move towards a Mozilla-like platform abstraction, or end up with a Navigator 4 #ifdef-hack.

Sure, maybe there's a middle road, but all I'm hearing from the KHTML team is that they can't run WebCore diffs against their tree and are a little on the cross side about it. What would a diffable WebCore look like, and would the KHTML developers be able to live with the product that inevitably created? KHTML will have to change to meet requirements from the outside, requirements that may well be unacceptable to the KHTML community - and vice-versa; what then?

Especially after what happened to the last Frankenbrowser? Netscape 4 is dead. Netscape 6 (Java) is dead, with its shelf still in the box. Netscape 5, dead. Everything that was left of 4 that wasn't part of the low-level cross-platform or security toolkits used by every other product went the way of the dodo, along with every attempt to build a new Frankenbrowser, aside from Mozilla - and Mozilla is what it is not only because of the decisions it makes about its architecture, but because of its xplat requirements. And I know that Hyatt knows that, because he was the guy who had to fix the browser over, and over, and over, and over again, every time one of the Windows guys checked in a change to Nav that broke the Mac. If I were him, I'd be strapping a rocket on my back to get away from any hint of a mote of an idea of a glimmer of a thought to return to that kind of cesspit of a codebase, and I can't imagine the KHTML developers would want that life for themselves either.

Something tells me that neither side will be willing to sacrifice the one thing that made them stick with KHTML in the first place - the fact that it didn't have all of the cruft that comes with meeting the expectations that the KHTML developers are currently upset about not being able to fulfill.

I don't know Hyatt. We've never met. But I can't help but feel like I can imagine what's going through his head, and if I'm right about the feeling, I can't help but agree.

Just read http://www.kdedevelopers.org/blog/14 and I can't help but think... well, 2) *almost* gets the whole core of the problem, and then decides to ignore it. The goals and needs of the teams are different.

Worst yet, he points out that things *do* make it from KHTML into WebCore; yet WebCore has all of the same problems that KHTML has with bringing in those differences, as has been pointed out - they are now rather different, and have solved the same problems in different ways in places. So there's a disconnect; Apple does what it does because it puts money into lifting changes out of KHTML into WebCore? Or Apple does what it does because it needs to solve the problems to meet deadlines that the KHTML developers don't have? How much will the KHTML team sacrifice to reach a compromise that a corporation with deadlines and a team of developers who want it 'done right' can live with?

Does that compromise exist?

Niggling feeling continues...

A simple suggestion : If the Apple and KHTML guys can just have an IRC conference together, I think that'll make a world of difference :)

Here's something that Apple could do.

Years ago a bunch of people started writing applications that duplicated the NeXT/OpenStep environment, and libraries that duplicated the API, and produced this thing called GNUstep.

Before I switched to OS X, I was using the Windowmaker window manager and other GNUstep applications where they were available. But there never have been a lot of them. One of the reasons people give me for their lack of interest in GNUstep is that it's copying NeXT's and now Apple's APIs, and they don't want to wake up one morning and discover Apple was getting all litigous at them. Apple's got a rep (much exaggerated, in my opinion) for being quick with their lawyers, so I can see where they're coming from, and I have never had a good response to that.

In one of the threads you referred to, someone suggested using GNUstep so that KHTML could track Safari. Even if they wanted to, or if someone else wanted to take the Apple code dumps and do the same thing, this would remain a worry that would keep it from becoming popular.

So, one thing Apple could do is do something publicly about removing this concern.

hi,

I'm not sure if this is the right place for this comment (read: I'm sure this is not the right place for this comment), but it has to do with Safari and browser compatibility, so here goes:
1. window.getSelection doesn't cover selection inside textareas
2. it would be extra nice to get selectionStart and selectionEnd attributes in TextArea, like mozilla provides.

thanx

David

Actually I wonder why apple doesn't just pick up Qt and support it as an official framework.

Yes, Qt "runs" under Xdarwin and you can "run" X11 based Qt apps under Xdarwin but they don't integrate with aqua *at all*. There is also a performance hit from the double translation of Qt->Xdarwin->Aqua. A native Qt on aqua officially supported by apple would help a lot.

A lot of developers find carbon obtuse and cumbersome, and cocoa/objc simply too bizarre -- the entry level barrier for OSX development for them is simply too high, win32 is much lower and guess which way they go? Qt would lower the barrier a lot.

It would make porting stuff a heck of a lot easier. It would attract more developers to the OSX platform. A ton of Qt apps would be able to be compiled natively for OSX immediately.

A lot of developers find carbon obtuse and cumbersome, and cocoa/objc simply too bizarre -- the entry level barrier for OSX development for them is simply too high, win32 is much lower and guess which way they go? Qt would lower the barrier a lot.

All of which misses the point:

Qt is a UI API. WebKit's calls to Apple API are the same, but on a different platform.

Arguing over whether or not Apple should turn Qt into its api? A commercial product owned by another company, again with its own direction and product goals? Simply not going to happen.

And yes, GnuStep *is* available; but no, GnuStep won't have the full set of APIs being used from inside WebKit. It could, though, and KHTML team *could* treat that as their porting target when converting, and do exactly what apple has done for the Qt portions.

The fundamental problem remains this: Someone is expecting a free lunch, and probably isn't getting it.

The smiley face is great 'n all, but when will you fix Safari so I can log onto Cingular's website? Having to call customer service to pay my bill is a drag.

...and getting rid of the luxurious living spam comments in this weblog would be nice, too.

At the moment, Safari is surprisingly compatible with various web sites... considering most are made "for Win IE." One of my gripes is still that it does not recognize CAcert, even as an option.

First let me give some background about myself so you can assess my level of bias. I am a computer science student at a Canadian university and I have an Apple ADC Student membership. I am also an Apple Campus Rep and many of the students in my program are very pro open source (as am I) so responding to issues like this one is something I must deal with often. Our university has a co-op program and while I am only beginning my 3rd year I effectively have 1 full year experience working in a commercial setting, particularly using open source frameworks to produce a commercial web apps. I know this isn't a great amount of work experience but it's better than none. My minor is in business with a focus on management sciences.

With that said here are a few things I think could be done better based on the information I have, which I admit is incomplete much like most people who have posted.

1- From what I gather communication between Apple and the KDE group has been only through email or informally through blogs. One of my co-op jobs was with Research In Motion (makers of the blackberry) so if anyone I can appreciate the benefits of email. However, email and blog postings fall very far from being a rich enough communication medium to coordinate development efforts. In my opinion many developers fall prey to over-relying on email because of it's ease and speed. Both companies and open source communities use it because it's cheap and widespread and I think that companies and open source projects run into problems when they rely on email too much. Email can't capture facial expressions or vocal intonations and is often miss-interpreted and the miss-interpretation can't be corrected on the fly like you can when you are talking face to face.

Soln: Organize a monthly or by monthly conference call with the lead developers of both parties (I know Apple has the resources for this since Campus reps have regular calls). Invite some of the KHTML devs to WWDC and send some WebKit devs to the KDE conference. I think this alone would change the outlook on the situation and knowing that there are people on the other end.

2- Apple is very closed about the bugs it is working to fix. This is a company policy and it is completely up to Apple if it wants to leave it as such. However, I think it not only helps external relations (members of the community wanting to contribute to an open source project) but also Apple (internally) if bugs logged against all of it's open source projects are also open.

Soln: There is no doubt already a team responsible for the initial bug triage that comes into radar (be it crash reports, people clicking on the report a bug button in safari, or even people logging bugs on their own through bugreporter.apple.com). When these bugs are initially reviewed and dispatched if they are dispatched to an open source project (WebKit, Darwin, GCC, Bonjour etc.) they should be sent to a separate, open bug tracking system. For example if a safari bug it logged but it ends up being a bug in the client then don't put it in the open source tracking system but if the bug originates in WebKit then go ahead and open source the bug. I have no idea what Apple uses for Issue tracking software but I have experience with 3 of the most popular issue tracking products and they provided some way of synchronizing the status of bugs between 2 databases. Better yet the the radar database schema could be changed to incorporate an Open source flag. Whatever happens Apple needs to let other people interested in one of the open source projects what is currently being worked on so that work is not duplicated and it is well coordinated. What is the point of open source otherwise.

3- There were both suggestions and criticisms towards adopting a common code base. A point to keep in mind, KHTML and WebKit in their current state are 2 separate albeit open source projects. I don't think Apple has done any false publicity here since they were fairly straight forward when they said that WebKit was a fork. Apple in my opinion has also done a good job of helping the KHTML project both in terms of added functionality and publicity. KHTML has come a long ways since Safari has been released (I'm happy about this since KDE is my platform of choice when I run linux) and although Apple's contribution seems to have slowed down lately compared to the initial benefits that were seen I think this is mainly a communication problem. If it takes more time to integrate a fix from one project into the other than it does to actually write the patch because of differences in both projects (i.e.: KHTML using Apple patches and vice versa) then it only makes sense that a developer would rather spend the time fixing it and feeling some sense of accomplishment rather than spend the time sorting through some other developer's work. To address the issue of what Apple has to gain from going through the trouble of moving to a common code base, well lots. Better PR than what it has been getting lately, increased awareness and use of a common web engine, a more robust rendering engine since any abstractions introduced separate the engine functionality from native UI toolkit functionality that may have crept through undocumented, and in the end, less work since the community can be fixing some of the bugs. Notice that these are potential benefits for KDE as well in my opinion.

Soln: I think that fundamentally both teams still have many of the same core values and direction for the project. Both teams still care very much about making a light-weight, fast, and common rendering engine. In my opinion I think that the problems here stem more from what I would call a superficial project management issue than a core divergence in project direction. Simply put, I think it would be a shame for a combined effort with so much potential to cease existing. Most of the complaints I can gather from the KDE camp are frustrations about how hard it is to reap the benefits of the combined effort; how hard it is to actually do more of the work the love doing rather than code base administrivia. Mr. Hyatt's offer about simply using web core (which may seem drastic at this point in the game), his continued posting of patches, and the very fact that he posed the question "what can Apple do?" is very clear indication to me that at least he, if not more people on the WebKit team and higher up at Apple, are more than willing to try to improve the situation. If Apple truly didn't care then why would they even bother with this sort of thing. The proposition to just go ahead an use WebKit as a common code base may seem like an effort from Apple to simply supplant KHTML but, although I am just guessing here, I think it shows just how much Mr. Hyatt wants to improve the situation and maybe even how desperate he might be and the lengths he is will to go to to help resolve this issue.

Just so that this post doesn't suffer from any recency effects and people finish reading this thinking that I am putting most of the pressure on KDE devs, I think that both teams have to work equally if they hope to gain.

I'd be glad to entertain further comments so I'll be checking for more posts for the next little while.

shawn

I would agree with some of the earlier postings - email can be a particularly poor medium, especially when peoples egos, emotions and pride get in the way.

From what I can see there seems to be a breakdown between the KDE and apple developers, and this should be resolved -both parties need to be a little humble and pick up the phone.

Essentially KDE want the Safari team to do things the KDE way, and Apple just go their own path.... this can only end in tears

Regardless of blame, I would suggest that having a public slagging match can only be detrimental to the reputations of both parties - this is also damaging to open source.

KDE & Apple - remember the big picture...a killer browser that is sleaker, better and faster than Moz and IE.

Nuf said

"better and faster than Moz"

NEVER!

sorry... :D

Is the following a Safari bug or KHTML?

When typing a target URL into safari's navigation box, it encodes spaces as %20 which is fine for the file part, but it also does the same if the space is in the hostname portion of the URL.

Given that spaces and %'s are both illegal in hostnames, wouldn't it be better to have Safari convert spaces to hyphens in the hostname part of the URL?

Chris-

I can't vouch for anyone else, but I've been using various versions of Safari to pay my Cingular bill online for months. In fact, I just did it tonight. I would suggest you check into what else may be causing the problem on your particular computer. Good luck!

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It seems to me that giving KDE devs read-only access to your bug- and patch-tracking systems so that they can understand what the problems are, and what fixes go to which problem, would go a long way.

Once upon a time, when Apple Corp started using (L)GPL sources, I thought : "Great, that's the company Open source needs to prove this is a valuable partnership".

But despite the use of open source code you practice, there is no "valuable" return of your company.

Micro$oft has the courage to buy companies they may find something interesting in.

Your big boss used to see what other didn't, maybe we're wrong, maybe he is now blind.

Regards,

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I think it'd be to Apple's advantage to work reasonably with free software projects they borrow from. In the future, if Apple decides to e.g borrow AbiWord code to make their own word processor, I think free software developers will be much less likely to help Apple out. The code is out there, under the GPL, so Apple is free to fork it, but Apple will probably need to figure out how everything works on its own.

From what I've been reading, Apple dropped the ball majorily on this one, and it will hurt Apple in the long-term. It's not clear what Apple can do to fix it.

What Apple should have been doing was to maintain an open development model. The KDE people should, at the very least, have been able to access Apple's repository in real-time, have access to the bug database (without NDAs), and any other internal development resources. Ideally, the two groups should worked together to keep codebases in sync, at least at the level of overall architecture, but that's less necessary.

Given how far the codebases have apparently diverged, I think it'd be very hard to repair bridges now. Apple messed this one up, and it'll burn for it in the future. It's probably already a little bit behind for it, as otherwise, it would have some body of free labor from the KHTML community in developing its Safari web browser.

>>I think it'd be to Apple's advantage to work reasonably with
>>free software projects they borrow from. In the future, if
>>Apple decides to e.g borrow AbiWord code to make their own >>word processor, I think free software developers will be much
>>less likely to help Apple out. The code is out there, under the
>>GPL, so Apple is free to fork it, but Apple will probably need
>>to figure out how everything works on its own.

And how would that be different than what happened with KHTML? The KHTML team didn't help Apple with anything, they only knew about Apple's decision when Apple announced the Beta of Safari, and sent them an email and the source - they had no clue beforehand. Furthermore, Apple already has a word processor - see Pages.

ATTN Dave Hyatt:

Completely off topic - sorry, but any response by dave/apple would be appreciated on this longstanding total incompatability issue with the Canadian Governments "ePass Canada" system. This is a huge problem for mac users in canada, so anything that can be done to get around our governments typical incompetence would be appreciated... TIA

There are doing something funky with security certificates, java and javascript and keep claiming they need apple to fix something for them... can you please post a reply about this issue with the "real facts" of the issue?

this is the registration site

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/eservices/tax/individuals/myaccount/register-e.html

and these are the error messages we get when we try to use safari, the second message is if you change the user agent...
https://blrscr3.egs-seg.gc.ca/gol-ged/gov/browserdetection/SafariNotSupported_e.html

https://blrscr3.egs-seg.gc.ca/gol-ged/gov/error/BrowserVersionAndSettings_e.html

The Canadian ePass system is a piece of crap I was only able to get it to work with Internet Explorer after trying Mozilla Mac/PC, Fire Fox Mac. It only really works with Internet Explorer on Windows from the time I tried it which was about February/March of 2005.

Hi Hyatt,

can you tell me, why the brand new Safari 2.0 is not able to display the eBay site ?
He is loading a long time and then no content is showing!

Would like to hear something from you!

Greetings!

Search tabs on front page of Yahoo.com are not rendered in Safari 2.0

Anything beeing done to improve WYSIWYG capabilities, especially including the getSelection.getRangeAt(0) functionality.

getSelection returns plain text in Safari, it should return a selection object. This is a show-stopper for WYSIWYG editors.

Regards,
Afraithe
TinyMCE Developer (http://tinymce.moxiecode.com)

If you're going to leave "open safe files after downloading", how about at least letting people choose what they're going to consider safe files? And how about turning off the "whoooie, this is an application, scary scary scary" dialog when you have "open safe files after downloading" turned off?

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Re: Soft Hyphens (since that old post you did on Soft Hyphens no longer allows comments).

Actually, Safari still doesn't render these correctly. It will render them if they are coded as ­, but won't render them if they are coded explicitly as unicode hex points, with ­ -- and the wrinkle is that although they are invisible when coded the latter way, they are visible when doing a "View source" or a "Save As", which leads me to think you are using a different rendering engine for those two behaviors than you use for regular browsing.

Even Firefox renders soft hyphens in "Vew Source" and "Save As" mode (both as an HTML character entity and as a unicode hex point).

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