Thursday 01.04.07







 
Erwin McManus


What does it mean to be a spiritual leader in the world of Hollywood? Erwin McManus declares Los Angeles as the capital of the future. As the leader behind Mosaic, he has a lot of profound thoughts about the role of the church, creativity, and risk-taking for the Christian in today's culture.

In this insightful interview, McManus shares more about the role of creativity, why the church lacks innovators, and gives us the details of his upcoming book.


Matt: You're in arguably the creative center of the world. What is it like to be a pastor there?

Erwin: Wow. It is a different world. I guess I don't think of myself as a pastor in this setting. I think being a human who lives a life that others might be interested in and attracted to and having a journey that others feel is authentic and really connects to God. That's really why I'm here. I'm trying to live out the life that Jesus talks about, hopefully in a context where people will go, "Maybe this is real."

Okay, I agree with you. But obviously your expression of that looks different in Los Angeles than it does in other places like the east coast...

Oh yes. Dramatically. One of the differences, obviously, on the east coast is you're still dealing with a very European or Western paradigm for people who don't believe. On the west coast, we have 80 plus nationalities at Mosaic and most of those are under 28 years old. So, it's a whole different kind of postmodernism.

So when I hear a lot of even the Emergent conversation about postmodernism, it's not at all what we're dealing with. We're not dealing with people who are angry with Christianity because they've never been exposed to it. We're not dealing with people who are trying to look back. A lot of midwestern or east coast postmodernism is trying to look back to an Eastern Orthodox or Catholicism and we have people who come out of Buddhism, Hinduism and Roman Catholicism. So a highly ritualistic approach to religion left them empty.

So it's an entirely different conversation. They've given up on organized religion. For them, a lot of the classicly postmodern things would be still very organized religion. I think it's organized religion for Christians figuring out how to create community for themselves.

So I realized several years ago when I was in conversations about what it means to be post-modern, what it means to be non-modern, it's an entirely different world. I'm dealing with people who are actually very spiritual. They're deeply spiritual. I think L.A. is a very mystical city. Creativity moves you toward mysticism.

How do you tap into that?

One of the great challenges is that people don't really care what I know or believe or have been trained to teach. It's very intuitive. They decide whether you've actually met God, even when they don't believe. They are people who end up going, "I think this person is in an experience living in a dimension that I'm interested in. I'm unsure if it exists but I'm willing to stay long enough to find out."

Which is such a dramatic shift from the rest of the nation...

Oh, yeah! That's why I feel like sometimes I'm in a different country. I don't feel like I'm in the United States anymore. And I think that's why, honestly, people get nervous about Mosaic and about me because we're so mystical. We're not trying to figure out what is a cool, cultural American way of getting people to act Christianly. We're basically saying that the invisible is reality. At your core, you are spirit and everything is understood out of this context.

If you go to our podcast, I don't know if you know that we have a podcast, my last three talks have been on suffering, Hell, and sexual orientation. We actually deal with pretty intense subjects. This is not a place where we avoid things.

Do you feel like people think that about Mosaic?

No, I think that most traditional churches avoid the important issues. They act like they deal with the important issues, but they're answering questions that noone is asking. They say things in such definitive ways where we all go, "Yes, that's right."

I think one of the differences is that Christian churches focus on what the Bible says. That's all they have to do. It doesn't matter if they're reformed, emergent or whatever it is, they focus on what it says. We focus on why. We say, "If this is really God speaking to us, then it has to make sense. It has to give us a holistic view of the universe. It has to have an integrated relational core where everything begins to come together."

So there's a sense where we focus on not being simplistic, but being simple. We look for the elegance in truth. Because I'm dominantly dealing with people who do not see the Bible as their authority. So if I get up there and say, "Well, the Bible says this," I'm sunk instantly.

So you have to paint the importance of the Bible first?

No, I have to show them this truth is evident within the human spirit and then show them how the Bible already teaches this. It's upside-down. But it is Mars Hill. It is Paul looking around saying, "I've carefully observed your idols, I've walked your streets, and you have an idol to an unknown God."

And I joke with my friends that there are a lot of churches called Mars Hill, but most of our churches preach at Pentecost. They are preaching to people who are already predisposed to believe. They're already 90% there and they just need to hear the message, repent and be baptized.

So, we really are at Mars Hill. In fact, our evening gathering is at a club called The Mayan where there are a thousand Mayan gods carved in the entire auditorium and that's where I teach every week. So we really are in Mars Hill.

Creativity obviously plays a huge part of what you do...

We have two internal branding statements that remind ourselves of what we are about. And if you look at all my books, the overriding theme is that life is a creative act. We really work really hard to help people realize that there aren't just some people who are creative and then there's the rest of us. Every human being is creative and that life is a creative act.

The problem with what's happened without God is that we've lost our courage to risk and to dream and imagine to create a new life. So we say that art is a metaphor of the creative spirit of every human being. So we do focus a lot on the arts. We have a lot of things. We have people painting. We have a lot of original dance and a lot of original composition. We make our own films. There's just a lot of stuff like that.

But artistry isn't the endpoint for us. Art is a metaphor that all human beings are creative. There is more within you than you can imagine.

What, then, is Awaken?

Awaken was our response to being overwhelmed with 50-100 pastors from all over the world showing up at our doorstep every week. Our church is really not that big of a church and we ended up having, in some ways, an unexpected global relationship. So we said, "What do we do?" We could ignore it and let it filter away. Or we could see it as the fingerprint of God allowing us and inviting us to have influence and shape the ways that churches relate to the future.

We created Awaken as an organization to focus on unleashing the potential in every human being. We didn't want to be resisted by people saying, "You're a church. You can't come into these institutions. You can't come to these organizations. You're not allowed in this arena." So we created a non-profit organization that focuses on unleashing the creative potential in every human being and we help people without God begin to see how they're uniquely designed. And we're so convinced that if we can help people see that they're created in the image and likeness of God, they will be drawn to relationship with Him.

What does that tangibly look like?

We have four different sections. We have a film department called Awaken Films and we make short films. In fact, we had one this past week... The Los Angeles Young Director's Association picked nine films that were highlighted at a major event and one of ours was highlighted called Midnight Clear. And at the largest short film festival in the world, our film came in the top two.

We want to be known around the world for telling honest, compelling stories about humanity. The problem is that Christians try to tell cheesy stories about Jesus in a way that doesn't connect to the human spirit. Really, what Jesus was great at was telling stories. What makes the Scriptures so powerful is that the stories are compelling. They expose our hearts to us. It's Nathan telling a story to David until he says, "Who is that man?" and he tells him, "You are that man."

We want to tell stories that expose the human heart, the human condition, where a person watches a ten or twelve minute film and ends up going, "Oh man, that's me." And then people begin to ask the question, "How did you know me so well? How can you describe me so well?" And we're able to say, "Because God created you."

We also have Wide Awake Records and we're working on a couple record projects where we're trying to nurture artistic creative musicality. And we have Awaken Humanity, which focuses on creating documentaries and we're just calling it "Things You Should Care About." We're just gonna give them away to the church. We're focusing on AIDS, hunger, poverty, sex trade and other things that we just want to say that these are things you should care about.

I'm so convinced one of the reasons that Christians don't act is because they don't know. Every Sunday, it seems that 90% of the sermons out there are about doctrines we already believe or they're messages about how we should live our lives better. I was just in South Africa and in some of the largest churches in the whole country. The largest is 18,000 people and they just built an exact replica of Willow Creek's sanctuary with 7,200 seats.

Seriously?

Yeah, they hired Willow Creek's architects and a frisbee throw away, you have informal settlements of people living in cardboard boxes and in bushes. So they're translating the wrong part of what we're doing well. I just thought, "Oh what a metaphor for the dilemma we have and the Western influence in the world." And what I kept hearing from Christians during Apartheid was, "We just didn't know." Its because the government controlled the media. And so everything they were told is that you had all these blacks who were violent and rebellious and criminals and so they were trained to fear people rather than care for them.

So one of the things with Awaken Humanity is that when Christians know, they begin to act in a way that is Christlike. But I also will say... Did you know to be a part of the Apartheid government, you had to be a member of the Dutch Reformed Church? So it does concern me. We don't realize that our theology does affect our view of humanity.

Even here talking about creativity, if you look at Awaken, underneath it says "Create The Future" and what we've found is that we really have created a Christian culture that is paralyzed about the future. We say, "Well if God wants it to happen, it's going to happen." But the problem is that people like Hitler felt they were empowered to create the future. Stalin went out to create the future. Osama Bin Laden has too.

What happens is that these people don't feel they need permission to get the future they want, but Christians sit back and hope God will create the future. And I think what's happened is that we've stepped into a destructive theology of paralysis and passivity. And so part of what we're trying to devote through Mosaic is creating an active sense of spirituality, that I am created to create the future. That it's part of my stewardship.

What was the fourth thing within Awaken?

We actually have something called The Mosaic Alliance. Let me explain something to you. We're one of those places that loves every kind of church. We're really not against almost anything in terms of churches doing stuff, because Christians beat each other up way too much. Our whole view of the Christian movement is that we are grateful that there are churches reaching modern people, churches reaching postmoderns and churches helping disenfranchised people find community and we're excited there are premodern churches out there for the premodern world. I think for too long, we have always seemed to identify ourselves as being against each other.

The thing with the Mosaic Alliance is this. We have very unashamedly gone after what's called the innovators and early adopters on the adoctored categorization. Are you familiar with that grid?

No.

There's a sociological grid - not created by Christians, just a part of normal sociology - that says that 2.2% of the population are the Innovators and 12.4% are Early Adopters. 34.1 are called Early Majority. 34.1 are Late Majority and 12.4 are what are called Late Adopters. 2.2% are called Laggers, but that sounds mean so we call them Nostalgics. It's just a natural bell curve.

Now, I think one of the cultural dilemmas in Christianity is that for the last 50 years, Christianity has been dominantly led by people on the far right end of the spectrum - the Nostalgics and Late Adopters. I just met with Larry King. I mean, I didn't meet with him but I was at an event where I got to talk with him. And the first thing he says to me is, "John MacArthur. He can't decide whether it's 1936 or 1937." And I thought here's a guy who's like eighty years old. You know, it's Larry King.

But I was so embarrassed because that's the reality that the Christian leadership is the Late Adopters or Laggers. So all we tend to reach are up to this Late Majority. Megachurches tend to reach this 70% - the middle Early Majority to Late Majority. These are the people who love clustering in big groups and they want to feel they are a part of the majority or they're not safe. Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

So what happened is that this movement of Jesus Christ, which started at the far left end... I mean, the book of Acts was the Innovators and the Early Adopters. These guys were risking everything. They shifted the sacred day from Saturday to Sunday. These guys were not connected to tradition or the past. They walked away from everything.

So they may have been fishermen, tax collectors and doctors but they had a certain connectedness. They were all willing to begin the new before anyone else thought that was right. So what's happened is that the church has lost this front 15% because, for one, it hasn't called people to vocational ministry who are at that end, who are willing to reach those people because they're hardest to reach. They disproportionally cluster in major cosmopolitan cities, which is why I'm in L.A. because L.A. is the capital of the future.

And that's why we're trying to plant churches in New York - we have two congregations there. And we're in Berkley, San Francisco and we're looking and doing things in England and Paris and South Africa, New Zealand, and Australia beacuse the world changes disproportionally. It doesn't changed in a balanced way. And so we've been working in China, India and the Middle East. What we need to do is target this top 15% of Innovators and Early Adopters because really the only people who are going to lead their religions, risk their family and everything to pursue Christ are these Innovators and Early Adopters. And if they move, everyone who takes their cues from them will move toward Christ.

What does the church do to reach that 15%?

Well a couple things. First, you have to have someone in that first 15% leading it and speaking on the church's behalf. Honestly, years ago, everyone who wants to be a Christian wants to be a Billy Graham. Somewhere along the road, I felt God say to me, "You're not gonna be a Billy Graham. Billy Graham speaks to that 70% - the middle. He speaks to the large giant group. But you can give your life to the top 12-15%. Nobody may ever know that you've done that, but if you reach one person in that group, you can change the course of history."

So some of the things we do consciously is, one, we move at a very fast pace, because Innovators and Early Adopters will not stay in a church that makes a major change every 120 years whether it needs to or not. (Laughs). The rate at which you bring change determines who is magnetized and who is repelled. So when you start making change rapidly, you start losing Nostalgics, you start losing the Late Adopters, you start losing the Late Majority because they think you're a heretic. They don't want that level of tension, anxiety and turbulence.

At the same time, when you start moving faster, you start drawing those Innovators and Early Adopters and for the first time, they find something that resonates with their soul. I mean, why would someone moving at lightning speed without Christ want to join something that doesn't move at all. For them, their acquiescing their significance and their capacity to do something meaningful in the world, even something good. So one thing is you have to increase the rate of change.

You have to have a lot of pliability and adaptability because Innovators and Early Adopters have low tolerance for doing something that doesn't work. So at Mosaic we say all structures, systems, programs, methods, schedules - all that stuff is disposable. Our only nonnegotiable value is people. And I think people in that top 15% understand that. If you really mean that the world is broken and lost without Christ and that people need to enter a relationship with God and are desperate to find God, then how can you justify making decisions that slow you down on this mission.

So there becomes a level where you're inauthentic. You know, the world needs Jesus but let's keep working on better programs for us. (Laughs). The world needs Jesus, but we have to buy a half million dollar chandelier. A person who's on the far left end of the scale is going, "Something doesn't jive."

So some of the things we've done: we've sold our property. I know of churches that sell their property but it's always to buy new ones. We sold our property and went homeless for eight years. Two years ago, we had seven locations in one year. We actually stopped meeting in places with one day's notice that today is our last day. Here we are, we're now a congregation of 3,200 in seven services in four locations across the city. Last year, I was driving 198 miles across the city to get to each location. It was insane.

But all of that because there's a sense of urgency at Mosaic. People know I am willing to sacrifice and do whatever is necessary to be a significant voice and influence in Los Angeles and allow this to permeate across the world. And this is exciting, let me tell you. When there's a crisis with Katrina, we were there. And the crisis in Bande Ache, we were there days after the crisis. We mobilize within days of a crisis. We take this stuff seriously. We redirect, we move on a dime, and we draw people who want to make a difference in the world.

At the same time, we also risk. We risk on Sundays. We always say that we want to create anticipation. People say, "We have no idea what's gonna happen this Sunday." And we want to create a sense of awe. We want people to say, "This is bigger than me. This is bigger than Erwin. There's something transcendent. There's something extraordinary that happens here." So we want people thinking and talking about what's going to happen.

Frankly, when I did a talk on Hell this week and why Hell was God's most loving act, the nightclub was just packed this week because of word-of-mouth. People were going, "What's he gonna talk about?" What we're doing now is people are e-mailing us questions around the world and I am reading their questions and saying, "This is the subject today" because I got 20 questions on "Is it okay to be gay?" And I just tell them, "Look, I'm not telling you that I'm gonna give you the best answer. I'm not even telling you that my answer is adequate. But I am gonna engage you in a conversation you will want to continue."

It's very exciting. People are very participatory. They're sending me e-mails left and right. It's fun because we are trying to answer the questions that people have. And that's how you reach the Innovators and Early Adopters. And you give them something bigger than them. I'm trying to end poverty in third world countries rather than buy new carpet. (Laughs). So I think sometimes we shoot ourselves because our vision is so small that a person who's global in their perspective will just walk away. So our vision is global. A person doesn't have to be a Christian for us to care abotu them.

Shifting gears a bit, can you tell us about your new book Soul Cravings? And why write about this subject at this point in your life?

Sure. There are some things that resonate with me for a long time, they cook within my soul. Soul Cravings isn't a new idea. This is something I've been journeyin through for 30 years. I've been waiting for the day I could write it. Soul Cravings, to me, is very much a human story. It's the story of finding God inside of yourself.

I listen to Christian apologetics... Even ten years ago or so, I can't remember when Josh McDowell came out with More Evidence That Demands A Verdict, but I chuckled because I thought, "Evidence that demands a verdict is a pretty bold statement." Once you have evidence that demands a verdict, do you really need more evidence for that same verdict. It's pretty redundant. (Laughs).

So when I saw that book, I thought we're gonna keep doing more and more of the same things that people aren't looking for. Because people aren't looking for empirical evidence for God. People don't want to admit it, but there isn't enough. We lie to ourselves because we're so afraid of being wrong. But I'm going, "No the real evidence isn't in the objective world, but it's in the subjective world." There's a universe inside of us more powerful and more clarifying than the universe outside of us.

I struggled with how to write this book. I didn't know if I write it to Christians saying, "Here's how you have a conversation with someone who doesn't know God, because all the evidence you need for God already exists in your soul." But then I thought, "Maybe I should write philosophically because it's really about spiritual anthropology." It's no different than a Freudian view or a Jungian view. I am actually laying out a view of humanity that is not psychological but spiritual. What drives us as human beings are those cravings that God has placed within us that draw us and compel us to search for Him and find Him.

In the end, I decided to write this for my friends that don't know God. I wrote this for the peopel I care about in L.A. and other parts of the world that are struggling and searching for God. Every time I have this conversation with people, I find them moving closer to God. I tell my wife that I'm a very shy, socially awkward person. People don't realize that because they come and talk to me. But on airplanes, I can't help but have conversations. I buy headsets and people tap my headset and start talking to me.

On the last flight my wife and I were on, the stewardess came by and gave me a drink and I walked up to where she was and knew God was saying to me... I looked at her and said, "You're in real pain. You're really suffering aren't you?" She looks at me and said, "How did you know?" Honestly, I don't know how I know. I wish I didn't. But I'm living this life where God speaks to me about people.

So for twenty minutes, I end up talking to this girl because one of her friends is dying of cancer and he's a priest. She doesn't understand why this would happen and how God could exist and that whole thing. Soul Cravings is really an extension of saying that I've found if you have honest conversations with people about their search for intimacy and their search for meaning and begin to unwrap that, then people begin to pour out their soul and begin to find God already there.

We Western Christians tend to love "The kingdom of God is near" or "The kingdom of God is among you" but we're uncomfortable when Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you."

What's the difference there?

Do you remember years ago, a guy named Bailey Smith was President of the Southern Baptist Convention and he said back in the 80s that God doesn't hear the prayer of Jews?

No, I don't! Seriously?

Oh, it was a huge, huge thing. And I was a new follower of Christ in that process, but I knew that wasn't true. When I read the Scriptures, I found what's amazing is that God is incredibly gracious to hear all of our prayers. I think that we love creating this delineation between the believer and the unbeliever. We tend to think that when we're sharing the gospel with them, it's the first time God is having a conversation with them.

Rather than realizing that God has been and is already at work within them...

Listen to our language. "We're going to take Jesus to the world." As if Jesus hasn't already been there thousands of years, bringing people to himself. And really what we are is that we are prophets of the invisible God. We aren't taking Jesus. We are just helping to reveal and show people what is already there. And that's what I'm talking about when I say that about the kingdom of God being within us.

People need to see that God is already wooing, already speaking and his fingerprints are all over them. Soul Cravings is C.S.I. Humanity. We love these shows that you can begin finding the evidence - the hair, the saliva, the fingerprints and then we can backtrack and recreate the crime scene. Soul Cravings is taking all the evidences and then backtracking the "crime" of God creating you in His image.


Comment

Here I am, desperately waiting for the postman to deliver my copy of The Barbarian Way that a mentor recommended to me, and we post an interview with the author - talking about stuff I never even knew he dealt with that resonates in my soul. How can you not believe in God when stuff like that happens?
» Posted by: Paul at October 18, 2006 08:47 AM

"If you go to our podcast, I don't know if you know that we have a podcast, my last three talks have been on suffering, Hell, and sexual orientation." Does anyone know to which podcasts this refers? It's not obvious from the message titles. I'm looking on http://mosaic.org/podcast/.
» Posted by: keith at October 18, 2006 02:49 PM

It is their current series. If you subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, it already available there. It looks like maybe it's not posted on the website yet. The name of the series is "Life's Toughest Questions."
» Posted by: DougD at October 18, 2006 05:03 PM

Yeah, right now you have to subscribe through iTunes, because they've been having some issues with bandwidth on their Mosaic site.
» Posted by: PAUL at October 18, 2006 06:22 PM

Erwin, thanks for the thought-provoking interview. Although I go limp and glassy-eyed at the current code words (the Nostalgics, the Late Adopters, etc), I appreciate what you're trying to say and I hope for a true revolution in this generation. Your comments about Mars Hill churches and Pentecost were razor-sharp. So many of us are caught in a box that doesn't make sense to anyone outside of it. I hope to be a part of the change toward knowing Jesus, without all the religious trappings and cultural baggage.
» Posted by: Eric Wilson at October 18, 2006 06:27 PM

Wow. I am in awe at how much this guy is connecting with the heart of Christ right now for people. So much of what he said resonates with the journey I am on now. I am bookmarking his site and downloading his podcast and will be checking out his books soon. Too bad I don't live in California or I'd be one of those people showing up on the doorstep!
» Posted by: Micah at October 19, 2006 05:04 AM

Great interview-so much to digest!
» Posted by: Cheryl Russell at October 19, 2006 08:23 PM

So much of what Erwin says, just feels right. Speaking truth with eloquence is a gift. The church I am with currently is seeking to have a re-start on January 1st. We've been emergent for just over a year, we've lost the 85% (no kidding), and now feel the need to just start over. I think this article will be one of the foundations to build our vision/mission statement on. Thank you so much for this interview! www.sojourn-cny.com
» Posted by: blair frodelius at October 20, 2006 08:00 AM

I read an article in the Dallas Morning News a year or so ago - an interview with Erwin McManus. I read it with my mouth open and my tea mug paused halfway to my lips. Who IS this guy? He was singing a song I've been humming all my life. (Why, why, why do these people seem so enamored with control and conformity? Don't they know Jesus?) I've spent my whole life as an innovator/early adopter type. At least now, I know what to put on the t-shirt. Great interview. Erwin - thanks for your time and your leadership. Rock on!
» Posted by: Melanie Wells at October 20, 2006 11:54 AM

Absolutely wonderful. I can't wait to share this interview with our church.
» Posted by: Harley at October 20, 2006 02:22 PM

Hi, I liked reading the interview: very interesting and provocative, challanging and enspiring. A real progressive. I liked especially what he said about God being "in us". That's the truth!!! My experience with the Holy Spirit was quite a turnaround for me. My world, along with me, changed. Everything flipped. So, the power of the Spirit to "change" a person is His job not mine. I am just a teller of the story, a messanger. I just desire a "place" (building?, no!) but a "community" to point people to or welcome people into. I know that souls come "into" the Church of Jesus Christ and even into heaven, in that, "we are seated in heavenly places...". But there's a hunger for more to offer here and now and when it's not here on earth, it's very disappointing. Erwin's 15% inovators/early adaptors being "fast paced" is "right-on"!!! Afterall, God appears to be still creating the universe at the spead of light, in all directions, spherically, shouldn't we? Our society, culture, or whatever, all of it wrapped into "something" is "advanced", yet so lost, behind, disfunctional, etc; and the "church" is just a part of it, but only a little different and a little, or a lot, behind in so many ways. I'm ready for a revolution or "revival" or "outpouring" and the world is ready. We can try to make these things happen or allow them but it's the Holy Spirit that really does it. I just can't sit back and expect Him to do it as Erwin says, thus, I preach Jesus, crucified and resurrected and I see despirite souls in jails saved. After that I don't know, and I can't just say it's God's job. We're trying to buy a house for guys coming out of jail but that's slow. Thanks for sharing, always, In Jesus!!!
» Posted by: Alex Blaine at October 23, 2006 05:04 PM

Mosaic only keep their two most recent podcasts available for free download. You should be able to purchase it though through Awaken Humanity though: http://www.awakenhumanity.org
» Posted by: Sam. at October 25, 2006 11:44 AM

I am very hesitant in believing what Mr. Mcmanus is preaching. The Bible says that we must repent or we will perish. The Bible also says that Jesus is the way truth and life and no-one come to the Father except through Him. It appears that Erwin Mcmanus is pridefull and not willing to surrender to Gods will, he speaks of "I" so often that that it is obvious he lacks carrying dying to himself... I believe he is leading many astray.
» Posted by: Care Full at November 23, 2006 08:01 AM

Care Full, no offense, but you just used "I" twice in one short paragraph. If that's how you determine one's pride, then it is "obvious".... I think Jesus said it best when he mentioned something about the fruit of a person determining what their heart is like. The fruit of Mosaic is that people are being drawn to the Living God in ways that work in LA. People who wouln't give a crap about Jesus normally are becoming interested in Him, and ultimately Erwin believes Jesus is the only way to God. When they know you care, they care what you know means he then gets the chance to point them to Jesus. Keep it up Erwin.
» Posted by: Jerod at November 24, 2006 03:56 PM

erwin you are a hero.
» Posted by: jordan caballero at January 1, 2007 08:28 AM


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Interview by Matt Conner

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