Your View

From the perspective of a University-level instructor who deals directly with high-school graduates who have insufficient math skills, I can totally agree that we need to take some action to improve the general mathematical literacy of BC students.

However, I really take exception to the way this news story has been linked to "the use of high math marks by universities" as a way to restrict entry to only those students with exceptional math skills. That is demonstrably false, and flies the face of stark evidence.

The thing we really need to be concerned about here is : do we want BC to be a knowledge leader? If so, we must find ways to increase education levels across the board. period. including math. whatever your pre-disposition it towards is.

What we need is more real life situations in math. Things like calculating rent, doing income tax correctly.

Yes school is supposed tot each you "how" to think things through so how about some real life applications instead of theroy only?

With all the talks about the latest rendition from the Supreme Court of Canada.
Why not have all the voting polls open and close at the same time across Canada.
For example: PST and Yukon- Open at 7.00AM, close at 7.00PM. MST 8.00AM to 8.00PM. CST 9.00AM to 9.00PM. EST 10.00AM to 10.00PM. AST and Newfoundland & Labrador 11.00 AM to 11.00PM.
As it should happen only once every four or five years, this should not be a big problem to adjust to for one evening.
Counting ballots has now improved to the point that results in any jurisdiction are reported within two hours.
What's the problem? The whole election report is over with within 2.30 hours or 1.30AM on the East Coast.
Or is this "TOO PRACTICAL?"

Math skills are linked to the individual's capacity to analyze information critically (such as news stories on CBC.ca for example). By insisting on dumbing down student standards, Rob Sidley is unintentionally(?) undermining a whole society at a time when skepticism and logic are survival skills.

By way of example, how many readers of the blurb above noticed that the "she" referring to Julianne Doctor suddenly becomes a "he" in the following paragraph - referring to someone else altogether - with no logical antecedent? A well-trained math student would have retained the original "linguistic equation" in mind and wondered, "What the hell is going on here?"

For those who commented on the poor math skills at the elementary level, you should take a look at You-Tube, Math Education: An Inconvenient Truth. I checked out the new Ontario texts and sure enough, this is us Ontarians. Basic math is about to get even nuttier.

Its interesting to see the words "math anxiety". In Alberta, math is not required for college or university applications for non math-related programs.

That being said, I'd like to see a lot MORE anxiety on math, social studies, and languages for students. I used to interview young people for employment where aptitude tests had to be passed at a minimum level for more advanced employment programs that required apprenticeship training. The number of high school graduates that were coming in looking for these positions but that failed the tests was unbelievable!

The tests were justified given the proven correlation we had between people failing the training programs and their results on the tests. But when reviewing with the graduates their academic background after they failed to make the scores needed, it was almost universally that they had been taking applied courses in high school (language, math, and social) and these courses just did not realistically equip them to deal with real world academic demands of employment training programs for more difficult trades and professions.

For all those worried about how more rigorous school programs and testing will stress their kids, a piece of advice. If you don't prepare them for these stresses and educational demands now, then real life will really cause them some anxiety when it hits them in the face with a stiff dose of reality.

And real life could really care less about their self esteem.

Many students who are capable of succeeding in University level math courses are artificially kept out of University by this 90% requirement -- thus reducing the amount of money coming out of government coffers to fund post secondary education. This is the goal of our short sighted provincial government.

SL of Pickering:

If you figure on 15% as a tip, quite simple. Caluculate 10% (one tenth), and then half of that again. IOW, if the bill is $36, $3.60 + $1.80 = $5.40.

Or you could always use the cheater's method and look at the PST/GST total. Add on a bit more to make up for the fact it is 14%, and you have your tip.

The trouble with using high school math marks as a gate keeper, is that every high school teacher could be marking their own students in a different way.

Without the old matriculation style testing,and anyone who went through that business will know the meaning of real math stress, where is the standard?

When my husband and I became concerned about the lowish calculus average at the local high school and compared it to much higher averages
(we got our friends to find for us) from schools in other areas, we visited the calculus teacher. A fine fellow by the way.

He told us that he had very little contact with any other calculus teachers in his board, or anywhere for that matter.
We contacted the superintendent about it. He was extremely reticent to even give us averages from other schools in the board. But they weren't actually terrribly out of line.

He murmured something about the Ontario Ministry checking marks, but we never could get any specifics out of him.

Some of you math wizards out there (also obviously very literate) could probably figure this glitch out.

By the way, I saved my old math texts from the sixties and my children looked them over
as they reached the appropriate grades. Both agreed they were easier than the texts today.
Nothing anecdotal there.

Michael,

Thank you for making the point that I was going to make!

Math is not needed for degrees that don't require Math in the day to day functions of the jobs that those led to,

I am simply shocked at some of the people commenting that "book smarts" and Math are not needed for jobs, just creativity?

Lets hope I am never near a building that is designed by these folks...

The bottom line is if you are not good at Math, perhaps you should not be looking for a career in fields that require it?

Secondly, I think math could be made more accessible if the curricula were changed to be more relative to everyday life, or if it were easier to see how math can actually be applied to things. Personally, I can't remember the first thing about logarithms or conics -- I never understood where or how I could apply it.

But I always did well in, and even enjoyed, things like trigonometry and some of the math-based problems in physics because I could easily see the application for such things.

I can see how cosine/sine relate to the movement of a ferris wheel or rising tides; I can see how acceleration works when I'm driving my car; how velocity and varying winds affect the flight of airplanes, and so on. Not only is it more interesting, but it provides a great visual basis, so you can actually 'see' the math in action.

FINALLY, I think it's JUST AS IMPORTANT to put emphasis on English and Language Arts. I am saddened by the fact that it seems the majority of the population doesn't even grasp basic grammar -- you're/your, there/they're/their, its/it's, loose/lose, and so on.

Try asking a ninth grader to define the various parts of speech, and you'll probably get more of a blank look than if you ask him or her to solve for x in 2(4x-7)=10.

There are a few things I'd like to throw in, firstly:

1. Few people have considered that curricula are different on a provincial basis. I don't really know how much this matters, but in Alberta, students only have to take math in grades 10 and 11; Math 30 is not required for a diploma.

HOWEVER, all students have to pass English and Social Studies all throughout high school in order to graduate. Students can still get into university using other grades in place of math.

2. Blaming the teachers is unfair. I am not going to argue that there aren't teachers who just can't get math across effectively, but in my experience this doesn't happen often.

And if it does, parents, why not request to have your kid transferred to another class? Alternately, my teachers were always open to helping kids out during lunches or after school if needed.

3. I think people are putting too much emphasis on the idea that this 'math anxiety' is a generational thing that's only appeared recently. And as far as calculators are concerned, the schools I went to all taught us how to do the work by hand first.

I'm surprised that nobody has talked about the semester system for difficulty with Math. When a student hasn't done Math for a year and a half,a disproportionate amount of time is spent on review rather than learning new material.

Both of my children are in High School and they struggle with the technical courses each year. Arts are different in that there is no need to retain knowledge from one year to the next.

Another problem is that students cannot put in the time required to master the course. Most are working too many hours during the school week and just don't have the time to study 1 hour minimum a night on Math.

My son does 2 -3 hours every night to keep up with the course demands and consequently gets a good mark.
Finally when teachers call parents about poor study habits, the parents should help the child improve, not berate the teachers.

Straight from the UBC admission requirements page for BC and Yukon high school students:

UBC requires that students from the BC and Yukon high school curriculum graduate with the following Grade 12 and Grade 11 courses:

Grade 12

* English 12
* Three additional approved examinable Grade 12 courses or International Baccalaureate (IB) or Advanced Placement (AP) courses
* Program-specific requirements

Grade 11

* English 11
* Principles of Mathematics 11
* Social Studies 11 or Civics Studies 11
* An approved language 111
* At least one approved Science 11
* Program-specific requirements

Seems to me that English 12 is a far more important course to excel in since admission to UBC requires it for *every* application.

If you do terrible in English 12, then it will bring down your admission average. Do poorly in Math 12, then it will depend on all your other provincially examiable courses and if it is included in the program-specific requirements.

For admission to the Faculty of Arts at UBC the program specific requirements are:

Arts

Your average is calculated on following provincially examinable Grade 12 courses or IB/AP equivalents:

* English 12
* three other approved provincially examinable Grade 12 courses

These additional courses are required but are not used to calculate your average:

* English 11
* a language 11
* Principles of Mathematics 11
* a science 11
* Social Studies 11 or First Nations Studies 12 or Civics Studies 11

No Math 12 requirement. This means that all those people who want to be philosophers and journalists can still get into UBC Arts to pursue those dreams without Math 12 holding them back.

So my question is why is this an issue if for all those students who want to get into more artistic fields of study, Math 12 is not a requirement for admission (at least at UBC)?

Most kids could achieve at least a minimal standard of Math if their teachers recognized the emotional component to the course.

Math teachers are famous for cultivating the emotional good health of their students. When students are overwhelmed with anxiety, or fear, their intellect seizes up, and they literally cannot learn.

Also, in terms of teaching Math, many students, particularly girls, are more language based than are their less articulate teachers, who leap from concept to concept without explaining the middle parts enough.

Teachers or tutors who can explain things thoroughly often find that their underachieving charges are perfectly capable of learning math.

In any event, when I was in high school, I regarded Math as a personally useless subject that the powers that be used as a standard to determine whether or not a struggling student was tenacious enough to survive it, and therefore survive university.

Michael from Montreal: "Wasn't Einstein poor at math?" I posed that as a question rather than a statement because I didn't know whether he was or not, but I had heard that.

So, relax! I don't tend to present things I had heard as truth. Really I think what matters here is if math is important to ones chosen field then it is absolutely important to have a good mark in it. Otherwise it seems kind of pointless to me.

SL's post reminded me of a situation I encountered at a Subway once not too long ago. The cash register was down for some reason so the girls behind the counter had to make do without. This one girl was using a calculator to determine everyone's total. Even with this calculator she couldn't handle adding 2 subs together and calculating tax.

She would type in the cost of a single sub, add the tax, then try to commit that number to her memory, and clear the calculator, and enter in the amount for the 2nd sub, remember that total, then clear the calculator and then type in again the total for the 1st and 2nd sub to add them together.

With pen, paper and a calculator on hand, she could not handle adding 2 3.99$ subs together and calculating tax on top of that. She didn't understand you could calculate 3.99 + 3.99 and then calculate tax on top of THAT.

Even with basic math skills, most kids should be able to do something like that. Maybe tax calculations should be more emphasized in class rooms nowadays. Tax is everywhere in our lives. It's not something that is going go away.

To Gil, from Toronto:

Einstein was, in fact, a little wonder at math. Theoretical physicists with poor mathematical skills tend not to win Nobel prizes. I am quite certain that, if he could, Einstein would roll in his dusty grave (having been cremated) every time someone trotted out this slanderous misconception.

Writing skills are my biggest annoyance with high school and University students today.

The problem in high school is that many teachers, in all different courses don't expect the answers on tests and assignments to be grammatically correct or spelled accurately unless the course is English.

When a science teacher takes a mark off a test for something "not science related" they get into hot water with the school board. It's ridiculous. Then in University, the same thing happens in certain faculties - luckily I had some professors who would give you a mark of 0.00% if you didn't structure your essays correctly - good on them.

HERE'S WHY: My former boss screened over 200 resumes, and chose 50 out of those simply because they were the ones with correct grammar and spelling. Poor writing can cost you opportunities - it's so sad that teachers and professors either don't think it's important or can't enforce it because of constraints put on them by parents and school boards.

In pursuit of my Engineering degree, I had to take English all through high school, and a few liberal arts courses at university. Never mind that I did very well in them; why is it too much to ask that liberal arts curricula also require some breadth in study.

Also, to correct a few misunderstandings I've read here, mathematics is more than simply memorizing formulae and regurgitating them on a paper.

Properly learned, it is a guide on how to approach and solve problems rigourously. It teaches clear, independent, and even creative, thinking. It is, for most students, the closest they will ever come to logic (try becoming a philospher without that handy discipline).

Would-be economists would do well to have a firm grasp on the subject. Don't think about asking me to trust my money to a bit of vague repetitions of others' half-baked, irrational suppositions.

There are good arguments for both sides, but I want to point out to those who see math as a reflection of ability to analyze and problem solve using logic: it is still based on "numeracy" (as one poster called it).

So while some people have the capacity for abstraction and logic, they may simply not get numbers. There are those that think using emotions and reason - they can paint a landscape that brings tears to your eyes, or inspire the world with "I had a dream" kind of speeches, but can't add 1'-7" + 2'-8", or count back change when you give them a toonie and a penny when your coffee costs $1.56.

As for the "calculator debate", those who understand numerical concepts see technology as a tool to enable further understanding, but those who are lost will only see it as a possible life preserver.

If a generation of students know how to use their programmable calculator, but don't learn how to solve a problem by hand, who is going to teach math for the next generation, and who is going to fix the calculators when they break?

I see a lot of unfair comments. Math has it's place in most things, even the arts. Music is mathematical as well as other forms of visual art.

Not to mention, some comments hint that we need people in trades as well so it's OK if some are not as strong in math. I have news for you, people in the trades need a lot of math, complicated math.

Math is not so hard for anyone when they see it applied. When I was into a lot of drafting, I could do many calculations in my head. If you don't do it for a while you get rusty.

The most notable comment is that it takes practice. This is true of anything worth doing. But I will agree there is more than math at university depending on your area of study.

It should only be used as a gatekeeper for subjects relevant to math. Which is most of them.

Re: Calculators

It has been stated that using such technologies disconnects the student from understanding the problem instead they memorize (or program) methods to simply solve the problem. While this maybe true in some of the lower level maths, once students start in the higher university level math, no calculator or program (matlab included) will help you if you can't even understand or break down the problem to obtain a formula TO enter into a calculator.

The student must taught to understand the logic behind the problem and how to solve it before they can even touch a calculator. And that logic and problem solving skill can be applied to any field, not just in mathematics. Which is why I feel that math should be to include in everyone's education.

A previous post stated that we shouldn't need to be forced to do problems 'long hand', as in real life, a calculator is pretty much always available (most cellular phones include a calculator). The school system seems to follow this thought as well. Once I entered highschool and through an Engineering degree, all math (and later all university) classes and tests required a calculator. For a decade we were trained to use these little silicon miracles, and I was extremely good at it.

My beef now is that it has forced me to be dependant on a calculator. Even to this day, I'm capable of solving the most complicated mathematical problems/equations you may wish to throw at me, if I had a calculator and some paper.

But ask me to figure out how much to tip. - I leave that problem to my Art's friends. Who unlike me, is capable of doing simple math.

Um... Wasn't Einstein poor at math? Being able to do high school mathematiocs is not necessarily an indicator of success or failure in ones chosen field. I eventually did well in high school math (after some false starts). But it didn't teach me creative problem solving. All the artistic pursuits I was interested in did that. They helped me to see beyond the complex formula to the underlying simplicity of it. After that, math was a breeze.

Is math important? Yes, basic math is important in daily life. Should advanced high school math be a benchmark for university? Only if the program one is interested in requires it. Otherwise other factors should be taken into account. A proven aptitude in the chosen field is generally a good indicator of that.

In most Ontario universities, upper level English is THE mandated course for all programs. You MUST include it as part of your course average. In a large number of programs, upper level Math is alo mandated.

Why have they chosen Math and English? Simply because all highschools, no matter how small, carry these courses. Further, these courses are relatively standardized across the province, which makes them one of the best marks to compare.

The other reason is that history has shown that students who perform well in Math and English, will perform well in a university environment, irregardless of the program taken. Are there students who perform well in a university environment who did not get superb marks in high school calculus? Sure, but this is why they take course averages, not simply the Math mark.

The fact is high school calculus is not that bad once you get your head wrapped around it. So if your child works hard, and has a decent teacher, they can get through it. If the sutdent is lazy, or the teacher pathetic, unfair or not, the student is not going to make it in university.

Several earlier posts have noted the inability of undergrads to write coherently or even spell correctly. The emphasis in elementary grades is to get kids to express their ideas without being constrained by the technicalities of grammar, spelling or sentence structure. By the time they reach high school, when these things really start to matter, there's no time to teach them what they should have learned long ago.

I think it's much the same problem with math. Math in the younger grades is often taught holistically, with as much emphasis on reading problems and participating in group work as there is on developing fundamental math skills.

No wonder these kids are anxious in high school. Suddenly they are expected to work independently, memorize formulas, and solve equations using hard math skills. If the foundation isn't laid in the younger grades, then the performance expectations in high school will be that much more difficult to achieve.

Grade school and high school present opportunities for kids and teens to get a taste for learning and to figure out which subjects they enjoy. The math - *and* English, *and* science, *and* history, *and* arts (need I go on?) - that we were exposed to in high school was only the tip of the iceberg, and trying to tout it as "the toughest stuff on earth" is just an absolute joke.

Sure, kids can struggle with it...and they can struggle with other subjects too. I breezed through calculus, algebra, chemistry, and so on - but I struggled with geography, history, and social sciences because they just weren't my thing. I hated every minute of history class - but 10 or 15 years later, I sure am glad that I got at least a taste of it.

Every kid has strengths and weaknesses, there's no doubt about it...but we can't allow kids to balk at even the smallest and most basic of samplings that learning has to offer. A high school calculus course touches on the most basic concepts; how can kids make informed decisions about post-secondary studies and career choices without at least trying subjects on for size?

I'd be willing to bet that half the kids who are balking at the thought of calculus are doing so without even having a concept of what it *is*. That's a shame.

I agree with many of the posts here. However, unlike most, I can't say "When I was a kid...", because it wasn't that long ago I went through the education system.

Yes, math may not be easy for some. But the answer is not lowering the bar. The answer is practise. I had always looked at my math skills as relatively strong, though very slow and meticulous.

Today, with all the practise I've had with math in my daily life and job, and the requirment for it, I can do some basic trig in my head. It wasn't easy at first, but with practise, I was able to do it.

Without it, I wouldn't have been able to continue on my career path. I had a want strong enough to overcome any deficiency I had.

Take a look at the pressures students are put under to go to university. This must stop. Not everyone should be destined for university. We have a need for skilled craftsmen. There is not shame in college and craft oriented careers.

The pressure has been on for so long to go to university, that we have a strong influx of Bachalaureat level workers. Because so many people have them, it drives the job requirents higher, driving more people to universities, driving entrance requirements up because of lack of room, making it more difficult to get in.

So buck up kids! I was able to recently do it,and if you really want it bad enough, don't let a simple hurdle stand in your way. Work hard and you'll be able to overcome.

Math is a fundamental building block of knowledge. It is in everything. It should be a gatekeeper.

Anxiety about it is not relevant at all. It's not about how the kid 'feels'; its about rising to a challenge and expanding their mind.

Also, school is not the end all/be all either for education, parents have to contribute too. If the school is not helping on a subject, not only take the school to task, but step in and directly help your kid.

I agree one hundred percent with those who point out that the problem begins much earlier, and that math aptitude should remain an important part of admission into post-secondary education, especially in fields where it could be of use.

When did we stop teaching mathematics skills as an important part of all levels of education? I think that the (no doubt lucrative for HP) use of graphing calculators in most high school math classrooms has contributed to the problem.

The difference between my math education in high school and my younger siblings (a difference of only two years) was shocking.

Rather than even teaching students to use technology as a tool to increase their math capability, they were instead employed as a way to turn algebra and pre-calculus into memorizing question types and the corresponding keys to press to get the "correct" answer. I guess this seemed easier than actually teaching them the underlying math principles.

My personal axe to grind? The growing number of students reaching their upper years in university, even students who want to pursue an English or Journalism degree, who cannot write coherently. Math is not the only field where the high school curriculum just doesn't seem to prepare students anymore.

This is a broad issue that will affect all of us and without tackling it early, we just prolong the problem.

I'm glad to read Meagan from Peterborough's post. The skills one learns in high school math sharpen one's capacity for logical thought overall.

Just because somebody is not using alegbra on a day-to-day basis does not mean they can't benefit from the increased sharpness of thought that one gets in studying algebra.

I would like to see more of a stress on acquiring math skills earlier on, so that when students get into high school the change in the style of math learned is not met with too much surprise.

We should also get students studying philosophy from an early age to complement the math skills. There seems to be a dearth of citizens with a capacity for critically thinking about politics and society generally.

Measuring aptitude is an interesting issue, but not a straightforward one. Math does serve as a decent aptitude test, which is why it is in fact one of the main components of the SATs. Using your math grades seems reasonable to me. Latin and Greek used to serve this role in many other fields.

In fact, if you don't take math, it's imperative that you do take Greek so you can understand that that's not a triangle next to that 'x' when you decide to build your next piece of IKEA furniture.

The literature seems to indicate that other aptitude measures (including the SATs) are not indicative of anything other than an ability to take aptitude tests.

But listen, if you just want to do addition, and multiplication, you can leave school at 16.

Personally, I think the culture of entitlement that makes math 'easy' until this mandatory cut-off leads to the problems after about grades 10 or 11 is partly to blame for poor performance. Introducing polynomials and quadratics at about grade 7 is common in Europe, and leads to a familiarization with these concepts. Mind you, teachers are not afraid to hold back students who don't understand fundamental concepts either.

Academic standards are the right kinds of barriers. Barriers based on race, religion, sex, or economic class are the kinds we should be looking to address.

Ok, I'm done.

I thought that was Math's job to give students anxiety.

It sure did over 50 yrs ago when I was in school. Guess it still does.

Math and stress go together and you don't need to figure that out.

Culling potential University candidates of all disciplines through test scores on one subject is illogical, intellectually lazy and short-sighted on the part of University administrations, if that is indeed the problem.

Math test scores should only be used in areas of study which require its high aptitude, not as a general screen. A requisite degree of intellectual rigour should be the only criteria for acceptance of people of differing strengths and gifts to University, if the world is to be studied, affected and ultimately governed by an essentially wide demographic; that should be a University's aim.

Frankly, I didn't come across a decent math teacher until summer school to remedy failure in its study in the regular school year, before I obtained scores in the 90s; far too late to restore any hopes of continuing the discipline.

As my experience demonstrated, the poor test scores may be laid at the door of high school teachers who have been improperly chosen, who have less aptitude for teaching math concepts, than knowing them.

The best teachers get Bs, they know what it's like to not understand something and can provide a path through the dilemma. Bearing that in mind, why preclude a University education to a potentially blameless person? A very poor show all 'round, I'd say.

I would like to respond to Deborah's comments about the use of math in trades. First I would like to state that I agree with her essential point - math is useful/needed everywhere.

But I think this illustrates an important aspect of how we treat math in the educational system. I am well acquainted with someone who is training to be a plumber. Throughout high school he performed poorly in maths. But now that he is applying it to something he enjoys he is doing extremely well.

So my point is, performance in high school maths is not an accurate indicator of future success.

If journalists to be do not have to be challenged with mathematics in highschool. Then why should future mathematicians have to be challenged with social studies in highschool.

Highschool education is exists in order to give a broad, well-balanced education.

Math is about more than just math. Math is about logic and reasoning. So it is understandable that Universities would like to use that as an indicator of potential students.

However, as a tutor, I shake my head at the way that Math textbooks are written. They are often more confusing than needed and seem to avoid straight definitions.

Perhaps its the textbooks that are causing the problems understanding math. With the right tools, math can be easy.

Math is a basic and important subject for students to learn. However, the advanced math of later years is truly not necessary unless needed in the university program being applied for.

The truth is that high school is (or should be) really more of a general aptitude arena rather than advanced training and anyone who wishes to increase their knowledge of any subject during or after university can do so at their own volition.

I personally know an attorney who often mentions how grade 12 was “the last time he had to deal with scraping through it” as well as a statistician who was originally taking a history program and had to teach himself more advanced math years after high school.

If very high math scores had been requirements to begin their higher educations they would likely have had significant problems.

Generally good HS students will be able to deal with higher course requirements if they choose to and “gatekeeper subjects” are ineffective at producing much beyond unnecessary stress.

Going through grade school and high school I never questioned the importance of mathematics. In the rare instances where I had problems, I always worked harder and eventually figured it out. I can also understand people who do not do well in math. At some point, even university math professors will encounter a problem that requires some extra work.

The problem facing kids in high school is the emphasis on math skills that they will never (or very rarely) have to use.

For example, when I graduated from high school I was taught how to calculate the area under a parabolic graph but was never taught how to balance a cheque book. Yes, I figured it out myself – it’s not hard. However, for most people these are the type of math skills they require. Never mind trigonometry and quadratic formula – leave that for students who are going to trade schools or university where it’s required; i.e., carpentry, electronics, chemistry.

Basic high school math should be just that, basic - addition, subtraction, division, and multiplication and the everyday applications that go with it. And have universities accept this for students entering arts programs. Leave the differential calculus for the kids capable of doing it.

One of the posters here stated that you don't need math to be a plumber, welder or carpenter. HUH?

Plumbers are constantly using angles and measurements. If that is not math, what is?

Furthermore, with regard to carpenters, any person who has ever used a chop-saw, measuring tape or a square can attest to the necessity of knowing math.

Welders must know the proper percentages used to mix their gases. Their LIVES depend on it.

I submit that math is absolutely necessary in the vast majority of skilled trades. Math is something that no person can successfully live without.

I rememember a few years after high-school graduation, I was knitting a sweater. The pattern was wrong about how to begin doing the neck portion and I had to figure out how to correct it. Imagine my suprise when I realized that a quadrelateral equation was the answer.

I sympathize with people who have difficulty with math, but the fact is that it is most definitely necessary.... yes, even for skilled trades.

As a lecturer at a BC university, I find it hard to belive that post-secondary schools are using high math scores as gate keepers to deny entrance. If they were, I would expect the students who are accepts to have good math skills.

The students who are accepted into post-secondary schools show a poor understanding of basic math concepts needed for University courses. This tells me that the secondary schools are not teaching the students what they need to know.

I remember giving my students a test which did not require the use of any calculator. In fact, there were no numbers in any of the questions. I was surprised at the number of students furiously entering numbers into their calculators to find answers. When I questioned them about this, they looked at me with a blank look on their face, and one student piped up with "How else are we to do these problems?".

I hear a lot of 'Math Anxiety' from people in this forum. Some of this is understandable and some is simply misunderstanding.

So let's consider the importance of mathematics which is a language that is used to convey and describe simple and complex numerical concepts. It's accuracy is based both on proofs, theories and applications and more importantly, the assumptions that are made to derive those ideas.

As an environmental scientist,with skills in soil science, engineering, chemistry, biology, foresty, having been broadened with interests in music, history, anthropology, archeology, English language (and other languages)I believe that mathematics is important in everything we do, not just the field of pure science or applied science or mathematics.

We all use various levels of mathematics daily both consciously and unconsciously.
It's important and every high school graduate needs to know math regardless of their choosen final interests and talents. Hand calculations are good for the mind; then one can move to the machines to speed up the work.

I use mathematics in everything I do daily.

Having said that, I don't think Mathematics should be the only prerequisite for demonstrating intelligence. I can show a perfectly written mathematical relationship that has no practical use. Why? Because the assumptions around it are incorrect. That's where my talents come into play; I can tell the mathematician what I want and what assumptions make sense in the problem I am trying to solve. The mathematician creates the language to describe it.

The scientist-poet-writter-painter and intellectual of the past had skills in many areas, not just one.

Math was probably my best subject. Yet in grade 10 my grade dropped after our teacher continuously degraded us by letting us know every week how far behind Canadian teens were from Japanese ones. How much better they are than us. It was these words that slowly broke down many students into not even wanting to try anymore, including me.

I guess my point is, stressing out students or demeaning them in ways such as this is not going to help anyone. Actions like that could go either way in my opinion: The student does really well and excels (but is stressed out), or the student loses interest in learning and does badly. And I'm sure being put in remedial math doesn't do anything for self-esteem, or help them to catch up at all.

Yes math is important for many subjects. I went into a computer course in college and a good math score was required. The thinking was that if you were good in math, you would be a good programmer.

Maybe math requirements need to be tailored per subject or program, and not for general entry into university or college.

Maybe parents need to try to do some basic math with their younger children and not rely solely on teachers for *everything*. (I have the same opinion about reading as well) You do not have to force long division down their throats. But try something simple like 1+2 with cheerios or fruit loops. Why would a young student bother to try to learn at something if they are not encouraged gently to try it. Why wait until their habits are ingrained and its crunch time to bring up a math score?

I am a philosphy student at Trent University. Contrary to what most people would think, math has probably been a huge help with my studies. Philosophy is about analyzing things and making send out of them. Trying to find what the "truth" about something is.

Isn't math just the same? I am not talking about advanced math, but the basics.. the things you learn in high school. Most high school math, and i only graduated 5 years ago, is not all that hard, it just takes thought. It is problem solving, getting to the "truth" about something, just the same as what I do.

I think that although it might not be math that I use, learning how to clearly think about things and solve problems has helped me.

University's should not place standards on only math though, all the basics should be considered during admissions. This includes things like english, arts, history and geography. They are all of equal importance.

"You're really excluding kids who may want to be journalists,...

This reminds me of the story I heard about the journalist who was trying to figure out how much a reduction of 1% on the GST would save him on a cup of coffee. He couldn't do it. Sad,sad,sad.

If Tim Addison's post of March 14 is any reflection of how he normally uses and abuses the English language, what he knows about math doesn't mean a great deal.

I think Rita of Saskatoon makes a good case against her own argument. On the one hand "Math has been used inappropriately, in my view, for this purpose. Programs that do not rely heavily on math should not use it as a bar. However, a surprising number of careers use math in ways one might not realize."

The reason many programs use math as an entry standard is not necessarily because their program is math heavy, but rather because math scores can indicate a variety of abilities such as abstract learning and problem solving. It can also identify some otherwise intangibles such as those that Rita describes:

"...far more students are unsuccessful because of a lack of application and steady work habits than lack of ability..."

Math is also considered to be culturally neutral (or at least as neutral as may be possible)and, because of its absolute nature, a reliable indicator of natural intelligence.

All that being said, I agree that it is way over used as an entry requirement and I suspect that is for no better reason than familiarity and convenience.

When my husband was in Grade 10, they were studying trigonometry. Not happy with having to learn useless skills, he asked his teacher when in life they'd have to use trig, and other higher level math areas. His teacher replied that unless he was to become an astronaut or an architect, there was nothing in years 10-12 math that would be applicable to daily life.

With a teacher saying this, how can students possible be expected to bother learning math?

Personally, I finished Grade 12 Math, and haven't looked back since. I have completed a degree in university and I can't recall once that I used higher level math in my 4 year degree.

Well, I think that the issue will be much harder to solve than "training better math teachers." If we keep making it easier and easier to get high marks in high school, it will be necessary for universities to increase their admission standards.

Math is an extremely important life skill, a good comprehension of math and formal logic and how to solve a problem is important to any job.

Equal oppourtunity, equally important, does not mean "let everybody into higher learning institutions." I don't wish to sound harsh, but a student has their kick at the can in high school, and if they don't attain a certain standard in all of their courses (read: well-rounded), they probably shouldn't be awarded a university degree.
It has to stop somewhere...

The 'gatekeeper' policies are there to protect opportunity for Canadians, not limit them.

Sure we could lower the standards or increase the spaces or fire the gatekeeper. But instead of doing that, why don't we just rename all the high schools universities? Then everyone can have a university degree. Better yet, let's just rename birth certificates university degrees.

Where does this sense of entitlement come from? In this country we're very privileged to have reasonable access to many levels of education, but guaranteed access is not the same as guaranteed success.

The perceived value of a degree is largely based on how high the standards it requires (and implies) are. If the standards drop, one of two things can happen: final selection can become increasingly lottery-like, and less based on performance, or an abundance of degrees of lesser worth can flood the market.

When Jimmy the Canadian goes head-to-head with Johnny from another country, it's not gonna matter that he'd ace an interview -- he won't get called.

When Conrad the CEO decides where to build his company, he'll base it in a region with a skilled workforce.

When Jimmy gets a job as a cab driver with his PhD in Economics, we can all read the headlines.

Give me a break. How much do we have to help today's kids through school. The new curriculum in high school was supposed to be so much harder yet in University these 4 year high school students are far behind in mathematics than the 5 year students.

Trust me, I was in the double cohort as a 5 year high school grad and the 4 year students had not seen nearly as much math as the 5 year students so this new curriculum is a joke.

I agree that math should not be required for entrance into all programs but high school need to get on a level playing field sometime and math is one of the easier subjects to do that in because it is not subjective in marking. I even had high school english teachers tell me that they find it hard to give bad marks to students who so well in other subjects, so what is the point if every teacher decides what mark a student should get?? They should be evaluated on their ability and nothing else.

Take the computer/TV/Video games etc. out of the house for a while and let them do some school work. I grew up without TV and never missed it a day in my life cause i had better things to do including chores every morning and night!!!

I'd really like to see high school pre-calculus be a compulsory course, but not counted in the overall grade average. Everyone would benefit from the exposure.

My high school only offered advanced level math and students passed because it was expected of them, and because their education so far had been effective.

Calculus is not just a tool for engineers. It was also one of Europe's technological advantages over the other civilizations of the world and led to the age of colonization, so historians owe it to themselves to know something of it.

But above all, math is calisthenics for the mind. It is worth doing because it is difficult, because learning it is hard work, because it enhances one's powers of visualization. Just like learning another language.

Despite many implications otherwise, math does not equal common sense, and I have met many people who do well in math but lack other human skills.

If a requirement for higher math is going to knock out otherwise very qualified people in various barely related fields, what is the point? Sure, try to encourage strong math skills (by encouraging good teachers), but let's not build a robotic system that doesn't consider what every person has to offer.

You do realize that in this globalized world, children today are competing against the child from china. The education system in asia has a hard focus on math and science and is wiring their brains into number crunching, pi memorizing machines. A grade school child in some Chinese elementary schools memorize pi to 100 decimal places.

Yet with all the engineers that china pumps out, most nobel prizes in science go to either Europeans or North Americans. The reason for this is one part because of the individualistic bend of westerners but also the creativity that is neutered in tandem with hard knowledge.

I believe that students do need to understand the concepts of math and understand the principles behind them. Having said that I also don't see how memorizing formulas is going to help or learning math with obscure uses outside the students field of choice.

It has been stated before, computers do most of the hard math for us, and faster than us too. I myself graduated from high school a few years ago, when graphing calculators were brought into the classroom, me and my friends would program them to do our math for us. We understood the principals behind the formulas, but couldn't be bothered to memorize them. We used skills like creativity and problem solving to make things easier for ourselves and come up with an efficient solution.

That all being said, for the children of future generations to compete we need a well rounded school system, with specialization coming later on during postsecondary education.

I think the reason students are struggling with high school math is because the math taught in elementary and from grades 8 - 10 is not at all challenging. I'm in my 3rd year at UBC pursuing a BSc. and I will tell you first hand that the math in high school is nothing compared to the math in university.

Students have to be challenged at the earlier grades with higher level math questions and parents have to encourage their children to try and keep at it. Don't be afraid if your child gets a bad mark because that's part of learning.

As for preserving your child's self esteem, that has much more to do with parenting than academic performance (i.e. your child's self esteem takes a greater hit if the parent is not there to support the child when they receive a bad grade than the bad grade itself.)

As for using math as an admission credential, I think it should be used as one but should not be the only one. Also with universities growing larger and larger and offering more diverse programs, admission standards should be more program/faculty specific.

I think UBC and other universities should periodically review admission standards and MAKE THEM SPECIFIC TO THE PROGRAM. (i.e. it should be broken down to averages for each subject like English 12, Math 12, Biology 12, etc.)

Another flaw with universities is how oblivious they are to the high school curriculum, even with the high schools within their province. They need to inform their instructors of the education new students have. All it takes is 10-15 minutes for them to flip through an old provincial exam to know what we know and not expect us to know everything in our first year.

A university education does not have the same prestige nor quality as it once had. (But that's getting away from the subject of math.)

There are plenty of jobs for people who don't accel at math. Plumber, welders carpenters, equipment operators. In fact it seems there are not enough people to fill the job market. A four year apprentiship and you will end up making more money in the long run than a lot of professionals.

The big problem with students not learning math properly is the teachers. My 12 year old did her first 5 years in school in Trinidad and she came home with homework from JK onwards. They put a lot of pressure on student to work hard and she was an "A" student.

Here in Canada she doesn't get any homework and she is struggling to be a "B" student. The school system is failing in their duties to the students with all their administration days off for students.

Without the importance of a balanced education - and math is a prat of that balance - I do agree that the higher math taught in High School can be oftentimes ridiculous.
Like a few of hte other osters on here, I was admited into my University program through the good graces of a %96 in French, substituted for my low math marks.

Caluclus is not something your average University-bound student will ever need.
I took Math 30 twice in order to raise my mark. I studied hard, I asked for extra help, and I still barely scraped by with a %54 and %56, respectively.

Out of school and in the real world, I do use practical math on a daily basis in my career, and I've never once touched upon Calculus again.

Let's give the kids a break. Re-examine the curriculum, and maybe start teaching math people will actually use after High School's over.

I'm so grateful that I went to high school in the 1980s where my teachers emphasized the ability to think mathematically where in my grade 12 math class we learned to do our Income tax return, we learned to calculate our deductions on our paycheque so we would know if our employers were cheating us, we learned how to calculate rent and utilities, we learned how to calculate a mortgage with interest rate factors and we learned how to calculate interest rate yields and dividends on mutual fund investments.

Then when I went on to university and had to take statistics and econometrics, I was fully prepared because I had been trained to think mathematically in developing formulas in my head and whether the answers make reasonable sense before I finished my calculation.

Its not just the math...its the ability to learn and be able to reason mathematically which is crucial for all students to learn.

Yes, it may be hard but I beg all high school students who read this: Don't give up ! Math will open so many doors for you in life.

I think there are a number of reason for this.The biggest one is the school system in general.Kids are pushed through the system now and not held back when they don't understand a subject.Math is the worst for this.And high school math can be damn hard if you didn't learn the basics.
Also,part of the problem is the teachers.If they don't understand it,the kids won't get it either and I have seen so called math teachers that are way out of their league!This is something that school boards need to pay attention to.

Despite many implications otherwise, math does not equal common sense, and I have met many engineers and other mathematically inclined people who lack the latter, along with other human qualities. If a requirement for higher math is going to knock out otherwise very qualified people in various fields, what is the point? Sure, try to encourage strong math skills (by encouraging good teachers), but let's not build a robotic system that doesn't consider what every person has to offer.

Math is an important subject and should be available to everyone. I'm not talking about everyone knowing how to solve quadratic equations. I think that math as a problem-solving tool and a way of thinking is very important.
Universities have been lazy when it comes to setting the standards for admission. Why does it take an 85% high school average to get into program that required only 75% the year before? It's because from one year to the next, the number of spaces changes or else more students are applying and the easiest way to regulate the number of admissions is to tweak the entrance requirements.
Math has been used inappropriately, in my view, for this purpose. Programs that do not rely heavily on math should not use it as a bar. However, a surprising number of careers use math in ways one might not realize.

Math is a difficult subject for some but I find far more students are unsuccessful because of a lack of application and steady work habits than lack of ability. I have taught high school Math for many years. The curriculum has been drastically watered down over the years, yet students are actually doing worse now than before. So what has changed? Have students become less able? Or have attitudes and the work ethic changed?

In our gentler and kinder world, we have come to believe that anything less than guaranteed success (often for lesser work) is an assault on a student's self-esteem.
Teachers are quite familiar with the fact that curricula and marks are tweaked to produce a more favorable graduation rate. Rather than insisting that students master important concepts (and devoting the time and the resources necessary to accomplish this) the educational system lies to them about their achievement so as not to offend them (and their parents). Somewhere down the line--it might be in high school or university--this all catches up and the student struggles with material he lacks the basics to understand.

I completely disagree with commenters who lament the use of the calculator and blame it for decreasing math ability. In this day and age, and in today's careers, being able to use the technology to solve problems is much more important than being able to solve them by hand. I am a statistician, and if I were restricted to doing problems by hand, my options for statistical techniques would be severely limited and what I could do would take me much longer.
No high school student today will ever have to solve complicated math problems without a calculator, forcing them to learn to do this is teaching them an obsolete skill. Instead, they need to learn how to use the technology as well as learn the theory behind what the computer is doing.

I think that high math requirements do keep otherwise qualified students out of university, and it is a problem. Some math skills are necessary for everyone, and even people in some arts fields, but the need is not as broad as the formal requirements.

I have to post a response to Carla's earlier comment -

"..given the ability of computers to do our most challenging mathematical problems for us anyway.."

While it is true that a with the right tools ( MatLab) the most complex solutions to god awful things such as three dimensional vector calculus can be found, it ignores the fact that with out an understanding of the underlaying math the solution is pointless.

Example - jimmy builds a bridge , he uses some sweet computer or calculator to determine all of the appropriate quantities. The first truck that drives across the bridge causes it to fail and death results.

Had jimmy understood that his bridge would be rubbish from the get go it would have never be build to these specifications. But without an understand of what the specifications should be and why you can't justify them.

I expect that post-secondary institutions are using math ability as a gate-keeper as a matter of necessity. They should also add English language standards to the list.

Our public and separate school systems are turning out graduates who hold diplomas but who are functionally illiterate and unable to add a simple column of numbers without a calculator.

These grads are the benefactors (or victims) of a system that accepts a 50% error rate as the required standard. The only occupation where you can get away with that kind of performance is weather forecaster. Many students are regularly promoted without meeting even the most minimal standards so the their little egos aren't bruised by their own failure.

If colleges and universities don't set standards to protect the integrity of the degrees and designations that they confer then a post secondary education will become meaningless. Degrees should only go to those who are smart enough and dedicated enough to earn them and, as usual, the liberal do-gooders who think that they should be handed out as a reward for just taking up space are tragically misguided.

I think there are several reasons for the problems with kids and math now. Reliance on Computer/Calculators, Under qualified or Arrogant Teachers, and kids getting a free ride on more and more things now.

For some students they rely heavily on computers for doing even spell checking so its no wonder that more students are having problems.

There are teachers who are teaching multiple subjects in some schools, I know of a teacher who was a very good math teacher but when he moved to another school he was teaching just about everything including Social Studies. Then there is the problem of teachers being to arrogant to help students if they are having a problem in math, i've had Pre-Caclulas teacher who met that very description. He would explain it once and you were expected to know it becuase he did in his day.

Then there is the problem of kids expecting to be spoon fed everything, I even noticed this when going to college. If a student didn't know something they would ask the teacher and expect the answer. Displine is another area where kids get away with more than they probably should.

I think in some cases the requirement for Math may be a bit out of line. I mean if your going into Writing, do you really need a 90% in Pre-Calculus? Probably not. But then again i'm not sure what the writer of the article thinks is too high a mark in math to get into university.

I graduated from high school in 2002 and I was a very good math student taking both the Pre-Caclulus and Applied in Manitoba then went in Computer Programming at NAIT, and for the most part not alot of the formulas and such I learned in high school were used. I do believe that though in most programs at both universities and colleges should need some degree of math but that should really depend on the program not on actually entry into that university or college.

Sort of a dumb question. Universities use math marks as gate keeper for entrance where applicable, like engineering, but not for arts or drama.

I feel math is one of those subjects you are born with ability, or not. It's not necessarily a measure of intelligence. My youngest daughter I consider most intelligent is informed and logical during dinner debates, very artistic and musical, but struggles hopelessly with consumer math. Her older brother who can't match wits with her, is breezing through 4th year as Math major at Queen's.

He 'gets' Math, she doesn't.

Fault of weak education system, with teachers more concerned about their union rights than teaching.

Yes, parents should be pressuring school administration to assign teachers with a math background to teach the subject. Too often I have noted that teachers with no math courses beyond High School are assigned to teach High School Math courses. Also, unfortunately, some High School Math courses are slotted in at the end of the day for an entire semester - not only are teachers more tired at the end of the teaching day, but students are tired as well.
Best work from either of these individuals is unlikely after an otherwise stressful day!
Too, last periods are more often used for pep rallies or other school assemblies, which cuts into teaching time for whichever subject is slotted there.

Why should it be acceptable for kids to grow up without numeracy, but unacceptable for kids to grow up illiterate? It shouldn't. Math is just as important, regardless of the direction a given student thinks they're going. Most students find that they want to change directions once they enter university; a lack of math skills will be a major impediment to many of those students, never mind being as basic as the ability to read.

I graduated high school ten years ago, and my university professor of a father forced me to take the highest levels of math all throughout high school. I failed every single one and took them all twice.

Lucky for me, I was in the French Immersion program and the University I attended allowed me to use my French grades in lieu of Math for entrance into "General Studies".

In University, I studied Political Science and then switched to Business halfway through first year. I found out I needed Calculus and Linear Algebra to get the degree. Lucky for me, I had the right prerequisites ( I may have failed Math the first time, but the second time was a pass ). I took calculus in University twice, as you guessed it, I failed the first time.

I failed a lot at math but I persevered if you want to call it that. Now I have an MBA and that Political Science degree and I can pretty much do whatever I want to do.

Moral of my story? Work hard at math if you suck at math. Work hard at English if you suck at English. You will need both in a good job. Don't limit yourself.

Many problems here.

First, it IS really important to learn certain things in high school (such as how to spell curriculum for instance). Math is another one of those things.

Two, the premise that the math is unnecessary. Many aspects of forestry, as an example, requires quite advanced mathematics.

We live in a mathematical world and a world that is becoming more mathematical, more complex, and more competitive. Math is quite literally a language and is very necessary in many fields.

If you get through high school (or University, goodness) without knowing how to spell, add, or reason, it doesn't matter how high your grades or IQ is.

If you think that's prejudicial, just wait until an editor or employer reads your epic call to action that confuses the words progeny with prodigy.

Come on,

My kids are doing fine in Math because I actually make sure they study and I am there to help them with any questions they may have, rather then just leaving it solely to the public education system in Ontario which at the best of times is questionable.

My kids are learning the same equations and doing similar Math problems as I was when I was in high school, I don't see any problem with Universities requiring Math in fields of study that will use Math.

This culture of inclusion that we are forcing on ourselves is getting to a point where it is just downright stupid.

Our answer is that if kids are not good in Math, Universities should not require Math?

You have to be kidding me? That's like allowing someone through Medical School without seeing a actual patient because they have social anxiety disorder, so they don't feel left out.

If you are not good in Math, then perhaps you should not be applying to programs in University that are Math heavy?

The problem is not with the Universities in Canada, but with the students and the teachers who allow them to make excuses rather then bothering to learn.

I agree it's about time this issue was raised, and I think some of the older posters here are not realizing the type of math we're talking about - this is not 1+1, and not something that banning calculators will help with, this is an emphasis on advanced cirriculum in high school math - calculus, for example - that's really not necessary for everyone to learn, but that keeps some smart people from meeting University requirements (and not just for math-heavy university subjects).

This affected me when I graduated from high school in 1990. Luckily, I was able to substitute a mark from a drafting class instead of math for my average to get into university.

You see, my 90%+ average in all subjects but math and IQ of 135 was shadowed by the 52% I had in grade 12 math.

Thank goodness they considered my 95% in drafting so I could get my degree! Certainly, though my math mark was low, I was still able to get a 3.5 GPA in university - which tells me Math should NOT be the main requirement for advanced education, let alone a successful one.

Other subjects need to be considered too, and maybe a look at the math cirriculum wouldn't hurt. I sure haven't yet found a need for knowing how to solve a quadratic equation in my post-high school career.

I was very lucky and breezed through the higher math levels in highschool and did extremely well. Many of my fellow students though, even back through the early 1980's, struggled with it. I remember all the extra hard work some of my friends had to put in to just pass the courses.

We were always encouraged to take the higher levels in math rather than the lower ones and it was mandatory if we had intentions of going on to university.

In speaking to many of my friends now, especially women, they all talk about the horrors of math class and glad they no longer have to deal with it. I love math and always have but there's a lot of it I have forgotten, even after taking advanced math courses in university.

The problem is, many programs in university use math - even ones that might not seem to need it. Even history and anthropology programs, for example, are using math in the form of statistics and lab work requires some math knowledge.

While I don't truly understand the math anxiety issue, I have seen many friends go through it, and luckily enough, a B+ at the time we were all going into university was enough to get you in to most schools. I find, even now, when I apply to go into universities (and I'm in my 40's and hoping to go into graduate work), these schools still look at my highschool marks and thankfully my math marks are still impressive enough (along with other factors) to get me into these schools.

I feel for anyone who has struggled with math. I also believe that universities place too much importance on math marks, and entrance should be weighted against the program a student registers for. Of course, in engineering, medicine and hard sciences math will be important, but for most of the social sciences and arts programs, math is less important (even if it's still used) and should be weighed accordingly.

Here's a helpful hint:

Train and hire better high school math teachers.

Instructors who actually understand the material are far more effective at teaching others as opposed to, say, phys-ed teachers who have been forced into teaching an unrelated discipline on the fly.

I wish I could say that was the solution we employed here in Nova Scotia, but, alas, we do not believe in effective, practical solutions here. It's just not the Bluenose way.

The problem is not related to Math. The problem is whether our teachers know how to teach students so that students can understand how Math works and provide interested to students to solve the real time problem.

So teachers need to be trained correctly so it can lead the students to face the real time issue. This is teachers' problem not Math problem.

Math is definitely important. It gives children the foundation of logic, problem solving for all subjects.

No matter you'll be a writer or journalists, you'll need the skill to interrupt problems; philosophers are more ture that logic is the basis.

Those skills are learned from Grade 1 math and building up! In order to not raising the university entrance threshold, the education boards should consider to improve the contents in math teaching, starting from elementries. Then when they are Grade 12, they'll have learned enough the "way-of-thinking" skills for university topics!

Most universities use overall averages as the basis for admission, and math is only one of those. Math is deemed necessary for most science degrees, which is entirely appropriate since most disciplines employ numerical analysis of data (including forestry).

Disciplines in the humanities may also require math - for example sociology and geography utilize statistical analysis of their numerical or spatial data.

In addition, many universities require a foreign language for graduation (not necessarily admission), but that requirement is becoming less common.

I don't think we can realistically expect many disciplines to suddenly lose their mathematical components merely to satisfy math phobes. However, readers should realize that it's still possible to get a very worthwhile degree without being a top mathematician.

When are these kids actually going to have to be accountable for their own actions in school, rather then having parent groups simply have the bar lowered for kids.

Here is a realization that will have many people up in arms,
University is suppose to be hard to get into, if there were no standards then every waiter and gas bar attendant would have an undergrad.

Solid Math skills are NEEDED in Engineering, Urban Planning, the Sciences. Buildings don't make themselves easier to design just because you had a really hard time leaning geometry.

Real world jobs DEMAND these skills and are used on a daily basis, the solution is not to allow less intelligent people into University just so they don't get "as stressed"

I killed myself through five years of high school (If anyone remembers OAC) and had to maintain marks in the low 90's to get into my program, because guess what Engineering is HARD!

Whats the point in teaching these kids less and letting them get a pass so they can go to University only to have them drop out in December of their first year?

Look at University Requirements, you need Math for programs that require Math in their applications, Accounting, Finance, Sciences, Engineering, Computers.

Which one of these area's is the need or Math skill embellished?

I graduated from highschool 27 years ago. I was an average to poor math student yet took as many mathematics courses as were available including calculus (yuk!) and algebra.

Even back then, there was an enormous amount of importance placed on the acquistion of math credits and high marks in math.

I too required a tutor, but mine came in the form of a fellow student who stepped up to help me out. It did not cost me a dime. I just asked for help! I am deeply grateful to the student who helped me, and we in turn became good friends.

Now that said, I am as confused today, as I was back then, as to why mathematics is deemed the gold standard in scholastic ability or is used a predictor of future success.

This is especially true given the ability of computers to do our most challenging mathematical problems for us anyway, and, so many students are wanting to pursue careers in which mathematics is of negligable to no importance.

I feel that the power of the brain is enormously multi-facet and that many unusually gifted students are not gracing the corridors of our universities due to the unrealistic and unjustifyable mathematical requirements.

This is a form of prejudice and does not give equal respect or consideration to other scholastic, creative, cognitive or inventive abilities.

This seems pretty archaic to me. In this day of enlightenment, it is time for our admissions requirements to change. At the very least, give us a sound reason for perpetuating this very old roadblock to success.

If the underlying problem is insufficient room in our universities for registrants, then the solution, if the government would place a greater value in education (good luck), is to build more universities or expand the size of the existing universities. Hire more professors, reduce tuition fees, eliminate the mathematics requirements and open the doors of knowledge and creativity to those who are going to make our world a better place to live, our prodigy.

I presume that there is a strong correlation between math grades and the ability to succeed in academia the way it currently is defined by educational institutions.

Aside from some basic algebra, most arts courses shouldn't have stringent math requirements. There are many creative, intelligent individuals who have no aptitude for mathematical concepts whatsoever but can still succeed.

This is, however, indicative of a general decline in skills. Technology has enabled those whom are mathematically challenged to overcome this problem, but by the same device is making the situation worse by letting them off the hook.

It's reminiscent of Isaac Asimov's "Foundation", regarding the decline in knowledge and the downfall of society.

I think the title of this is a joke. After all what goes around comes around.

I recall when I was in public school back in the early 1960's they introduced what was touted as "new math" and there was no way I was getting my head around it. A few days later I was at my grandparents home for dinner and took my math homework with me. My grandmother saw I was having trouble to offered to help. When I showed her what it was she broke out laughing saying that wasn't new at all it was the way she had been taught how to do math when she was a little girl back in London England in the early part of the 20th century.

So like I said what goes around comes around there is only so many ways to add 1 + 1 so LIVE WITH IT

I was surprised your article didn't mention the fact that technogoly itself may be to blame for student stress in math problems.

The calculator has taken over where the "brain" used to figure it out. Calculators of any kind should be banned from use in math classes or homework assigned to same.

Math problem solving, and higher grades by the student, would most likely improve overall.

It is about time this issue is raised!

I did terribly in highschool math, I never could meet the competitive requirements and it has done nothing but set me back on post secondary education which is something I already struggle with.

Not only is money an issue, but apparently my "B" average is not good enough for Universities simply because my math skills tell them I'm not good enough for their schooling.

I sure hope the Ministry of Education takes a serious look at this as a major problem of the educational system. How on earth do they expect us young people to survive out there if the minimal requirement for most jobs now is AT LEAST a bachelor in something-and we simply can't provide because our math skills suck and we can't afford school because we can't get into school to get a job that will help pay for school.

It is time for something to be done. I'm trying to make something of myself here, and it really seems like theres no breaks and no ways to succeed.