Doug's Message Boards
« The next major manufactuer to go smokeless? »

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.
Sept 7, 2007, 7:21pm





Savage Muzzleloading Message Board

"The Nets First Message Board For the Savage Muzzleloader"

Since December, 4 2000

This forum is dedicated exclusively for the discussion of the Savage Muzzleloader.

This message board is not affiliated with Savage Arms.

Please note that any loads used that are not in the Savage owner's manual are used at the owner's own risk, this forum's owner will not be held liable for any damage to equipment from using said loads. When using loads off this page, remember that all rifles are different and you should begin low and work up from there.
DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER IN ANY MUZZLELOADER OTHER THAN THE SAVAGE MODEL 10-I OR MODEL 10-II.

Do NOT post anything here which you have a copyright on unless you are willing to have it posted in the archives pages for future references.


"CLICK HERE FOR SAV10ML.COM"

"CLICK HERE FOR STINKY PETE'S ARCHIVE PAGES"

"CLICK HERE FOR DOUG'S ARCHIVE PAGES"

"CLICK HERE FOR COYOTE GUNS HE HAS THE SAVAGE MUZZLELOADERS FOR SALE"

"CLICK HERE FOR THE SMI PRODUCTS WEBSITE"

"CLICK Here For The New EZ Tool (RV) Ratcheting Version"
"Click Here for the TIPS & HINTS Please Read"

Call 336-854-3925 to talk to Henry Ball about one of his custom rifles and maybe arrange to order one for yourself!,

Doug's Message Boards :: Muzzleloader Forums :: Savage Muzzleloading Message Board :: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
   [Search This Thread][Reply] [Send Topic To Friend] [Print]
 AuthorTopic: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless? (Read 1,052 times)
jjw
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline





Joined: Sept 2005
Posts: 527
 The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Thread Started on Feb 5, 2007, 3:53pm »
[Quote]

Who would you guess, if anyone, would be the next major firearms manufactuer to produces a smokeless ML? I do not even have a guess, but thought that others may.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
rambo1937
Spike
*
member is offline





Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 20
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #1 on Feb 5, 2007, 4:25pm »
[Quote]

Daisy was out with a smokless before Savage. ::)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
ourway77
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Jun 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 650
Location: Ocen View, Delaware
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #2 on Feb 5, 2007, 4:50pm »
[Quote]

After seeing how Knight brought out a ML'er that will also take a rifle barrel, My guess them
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Today is a gift, tomorrow a guess
ukwildcat
Eight Pointer
***
member is offline





Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 175
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #3 on Feb 5, 2007, 9:26pm »
[Quote]

crossman also had one a while back ;D
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
mike3132
Global Moderator
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 777
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #4 on Feb 5, 2007, 9:48pm »
[Quote]

My guess would be NEF/H&R.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
KerryB
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Feb 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 631
Location: Southern Illinois
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #5 on Feb 5, 2007, 10:10pm »
[Quote]

"Ain't gonna happen"! All the other manufacturers are still waiting to see if a Savage is going to blow up so they can say "See, we told you so!". Since that "Ain't gonna happen", and they have already warned that smokeless in a muzzleloader isn't safe, they would look pretty stupid to start making a gun that they said isn't safe in the first place. If the other manufacturers suddenly said they were wrong and now they are going to start making a smokeless, then someone would be crazy not to buy the tried and tested Savage instead of the new unproven model. If all the other manufacturers have waited this long, then it's too late now. Savage bravely stepped up to the plate several years ago and they hold the market on factory smokeless muzzleloaders. Smokeless muzzleloading isn't that big a slice of the firearms pie...............but Savage wisely put it on their plate and now the other manufacturers are too busy consolidating, merging and trying to keep their heads above water to try to outsmart Savage at this late point in the game! JMHO, but i've never been wrong before! ;) ;D ;D KerryB
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
SW
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline





Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,234
Location: Piggott, AR
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #6 on Feb 5, 2007, 10:19pm »
[Quote]


Feb 5, 2007, 9:48pm, mike3132 wrote:
My guess would be NEF/H&R.

I think this is a accurate guess. They have no words to eat, no clients to hack off,; but they do have an easy chore to broaden their product's horizon. Think of a H&R Buffalo hunter made as a smokeless mler! This would really look and feel great. I've been thinking about getting one, having a breechplug made at local machine shop that will fit in the 45-70 chamber and using it as a smokeless MLer. I'd need to do something to make it at least temporarily cartridge incapable if used for hunting. Actually here where I live, this wouldn't likely be a problem of just using a 45-70 slide in breechplug.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
AJ
Six pointer
**
member is offline





Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 82
Location: Las Cruces, New Mexico
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #7 on Feb 6, 2007, 2:09am »
[Quote]

Since T/C is owned by S&W now, maybe they will start thinking in a new direction. I am not holding my breath, but anything is possible.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
CORVAIR
Eight Pointer
***
member is offline





Joined: Aug 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 104
Location: INDIANA
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #8 on Feb 6, 2007, 6:07am »
[Quote]

Just about every firearms website you visit someone is talking about the Savage smokeless muzzleloader and the majority of the talk is very positive! I would bet that management from some of these companies has been reading the same posts, including those on this website.I would even venture to say that Greg Ritz is fascinated by the whole smokeless thing.

When you start reading over and over again the positive attributes of smokeless muzzleloading and the lack of any safety issues it eventually will "sink-in". As to who will be the first major player to jump on the wagon? Anybody's guess, my bet is Knight due to the market share loss from Thompson Centers fine products and excellant marketing.
I wouldn't count out TC/SW either, just a matter of time till it happens and it will happen.
« Last Edit: Feb 6, 2007, 6:08am by CORVAIR »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
edge
Administrator
*****
member is offline





Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,993
Location: In front of my computer :-) nj
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #9 on Feb 6, 2007, 8:24am »
[Quote]

We discuss this topic every year. I think that I am resigned to a NON- major making the next inroads into the smokeless market.

I have no doubt that Knight, CVA, and anybody that wants to stay in the game already has a smokeless rifle ready to roll out.
I also think that they probably have a "Gentlemen's Agreement" that they won't be the first to break the ice with a smokeless introduction :(

edge.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
dougedwards
Ten Pointer
****
member is offline





Joined: Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 440
Location: Williamsburg, VA.
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #10 on Feb 6, 2007, 9:25am »
[Quote]

At one time inlines were considered almost a heresy according to some. Then when scopes became legal with muzzleloaders, well, even Knight and Thompson Center eventually began to offer their rifles with scopes on them. All of this meant More Money, More Money, More Money to the manufacturers. But this isn't quite the situation with smokeless.

One thing is for sure. Look all down through history and you will see that you can't stop progress. If something is new and improved AND it is advertised as such people will demand it. Thompson Center, Knight, H&R and all the rest WILL be offering a smokeless muzzleloader. Who will be the first I have no idea but I do know who was the first. Pioneers are always respected.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

But you brethren are not of the flesh but of the Spirit if indeed the Spirit of Christ dwells within you.........Romans 8
encoreguy
Eight Pointer
***
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Indiana
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #11 on Feb 6, 2007, 10:26am »
[Quote]

My vote is that no major will do it. It is a very small market and I fear that it is a shrinking market. The Western states are unfrieldly to smokeless and I fear that the midwest will have more outlawing it than adding it to the the approved list. T/C owns the ML market and with the amount that Savage sells is no great loss to them. The Savage is a great gun, but I fear the growth potential is rather limited. I may get some arguments here but smokeless is not for everyone. I see too many people that should not be even shooting blackpowder guns due to their uneducated and unsafe practices. Just like reloading is not meant for everyone (which is what we are doing without the brass). Unfortunately we live in a world that has to constantly think about liability and the potential mis-use of products. Smokeless is great and I love it and I hope it grows and we have additional opportunities in the smokeless muzzleloading sport. However, I don't think that 10 years from now we will look back and say, "do you remember when everyone hunted with blackpowder guns". I don't think it will grow like inlines did 10-15 years ago. We must be carefull not to seperate ourselves from the blackpowder community or the traditionalist. We are all hunters and we must stick together not divide our ranks. There is someone that is filing lawsuits against state game agencies because they do not allow scopes. Saying that it is descrimination. That is the kind of garbage that will cause us to loose inlines, smokeless, scopes, special seasons,etc. I will get off of my soap box now. :)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything!
edge
Administrator
*****
member is offline





Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,993
Location: In front of my computer :-) nj
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #12 on Feb 6, 2007, 11:33am »
[Quote]


Feb 6, 2007, 10:26am, encoreguy wrote:
SNIP

There is someone that is filing lawsuits against state game agencies because they do not allow scopes. Saying that it is descrimination. That is the kind of garbage that will cause us to loose inlines, smokeless, scopes, special seasons,etc. I will get off of my soap box now. :)


IMO, you are wrong. In the past 20 years most ML hunters are modern all the way, and use scopes on in-lines. They far outnumber traditional shooters, and while they are not too vocal about getting things changed in their favor, once they buy a gun they will be vocal about having their season taken away.

Perhaps the traditional folks may get a primitive season but I doubt that many game agencies are going to outlaw in-line rifles and/or get rid of scopes once they have legalized them!

edge.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
KerryB
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Feb 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 631
Location: Southern Illinois
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #13 on Feb 6, 2007, 12:59pm »
[Quote]


Feb 6, 2007, 11:33am, edge wrote:

Feb 6, 2007, 10:26am, encoreguy wrote:
SNIP

There is someone that is filing lawsuits against state game agencies because they do not allow scopes. Saying that it is descrimination. That is the kind of garbage that will cause us to loose inlines, smokeless, scopes, special seasons,etc. I will get off of my soap box now. :)


IMO, you are wrong. In the past 20 years most ML hunters are modern all the way, and use scopes on in-lines. They far outnumber traditional shooters, and while they are not too vocal about getting things changed in their favor, once they buy a gun they will be vocal about having their season taken away.

Perhaps the traditional folks may get a primitive season but I doubt that many game agencies are going to outlaw in-line rifles and/or get rid of scopes once they have legalized them!

edge.
Edge, i agree with you completely. I think it would be very unlikely that game agencies would outlaw something that they have recently allowed if for no other reason than they know hunters have now spent thousands of dollars buying equipment based on them allowing smokeless. To reverse their standing on it after the fact would cause more of an outcry than they want to hear. Besides i haven't heard a single party here in Illinois that has a problem with smokeless. To the contrary, anyone that i talk to has only asked questions about how well it works and where they can get one for themselves. I used to know guys who hunted traditional muzzleloader, but not anymore. All of my friends here in Southern Illinois have upgraded to inlines with scopes. They prefer all of the benefits that recent technology is now offering and i must admit to being the biggest duck in the puddle. ;) KerryB
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
hank
Spike
*
member is offline





Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 20
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #14 on Feb 6, 2007, 1:33pm »
[Quote]

I think that Savage may have some patent rights preventing other manufactures from developing smokeless. Ball invented the design and presented it to several manufactures before Savage bought the rights. If that is the case it maybe 28 years before the Patent expires.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
edge
Administrator
*****
member is offline





Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,993
Location: In front of my computer :-) nj
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #15 on Feb 6, 2007, 1:49pm »
[Quote]

I believe that the most recent patent was in 2003.

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US006516549&SectionNum=1&IDKey=7C98AD180B4E&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacg i/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%252 6f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=6,516,549.PN.%2526OS=PN/6,516,549%2526RS=PN/6,516,549

This was for the 209 primer/bolthead design and that should have another 14 years to run.

Certainly there are designs that get around their specific patents. I use a 45 ACP case and a press fit hardened drill bushing. Neither of these infringe on their patents. Many ML's use just your fingers to load a 209 primer.

Obviously the Balls came up with a great design, but the SMI design works, mine works, Bad Bull works, Ultimate works, there are tons of designs that will get the job done...some are just nicer than others.

edge.
« Last Edit: Feb 6, 2007, 1:55pm by edge »Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
1187vx2
Spike
*
member is offline





Joined: Sept 2005
Posts: 39
Location: So. Illinois
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #16 on Feb 6, 2007, 1:58pm »
[Quote]

I really hope somebody does - competition is good. Can't imagine it will be T/C; they've been too vocal about how bad of an idea it is + what do they have to gain - they already have the market.

If someone does, I'd bet it would be a manufacturer looking to actually advertise how cool smokeless is and try to eat into T/C's market share. Wouldn't that be interesting?
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
encoreguy
Eight Pointer
***
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Indiana
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #17 on Feb 6, 2007, 5:02pm »
[Quote]


Feb 6, 2007, 12:59pm, KerryB wrote:

Feb 6, 2007, 11:33am, edge wrote:


IMO, you are wrong. In the past 20 years most ML hunters are modern all the way, and use scopes on in-lines. They far outnumber traditional shooters, and while they are not too vocal about getting things changed in their favor, once they buy a gun they will be vocal about having their season taken away.

Perhaps the traditional folks may get a primitive season but I doubt that many game agencies are going to outlaw in-line rifles and/or get rid of scopes once they have legalized them!

edge.
Edge, i agree with you completely. I think it would be very unlikely that game agencies would outlaw something that they have recently allowed if for no other reason than they know hunters have now spent thousands of dollars buying equipment based on them allowing smokeless. To reverse their standing on it after the fact would cause more of an outcry than they want to hear. Besides i haven't heard a single party here in Illinois that has a problem with smokeless. To the contrary, anyone that i talk to has only asked questions about how well it works and where they can get one for themselves. I used to know guys who hunted traditional muzzleloader, but not anymore. All of my friends here in Southern Illinois have upgraded to inlines with scopes. They prefer all of the benefits that recent technology is now offering and i must admit to being the biggest duck in the puddle. ;) KerryB


I hope you guys are right. You have more faith in the government than I do. Didn't Minnosota just outlaw smokeless? Was it legal before? I have heard rumors of states that would allow inlines and smokeless during the regular firearms season (which is shotguns and muzzleloaders here) but will change the "muzzleloader" season to be called primative weapon season. Which would be blackpowder and sidelocks. If they do that here, that means I loose 2 weeks of hunting with my smokeless. I have also heard rumor that Indiana is trying to reword muzzleloader season to exclude smokeless powder. I hope not!!!! I hope that more Western states allow smokeless in the future and it continues to be a growing sport so more manufactures are willing to take the smokeless plunge.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything!
jjw
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline





Joined: Sept 2005
Posts: 527
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #18 on Feb 7, 2007, 10:34am »
[Quote]

Yeah Minnesota outlawed smokeless during the ML season starting last season, but was legal before. I still hunted with smokeless though.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
DannoBoone
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Jun 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 962
Location: Walker, IA
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #19 on Feb 7, 2007, 11:12am »
[Quote]


Feb 7, 2007, 10:34am, jjw wrote:
Yeah Minnesota outlawed smokeless during the ML season starting last season, but was legal before. I still hunted with smokeless though.


CAREFUL! DNR nabbed someone on another board for admitting
such things. One honored member of this board who lives in such
a state makes sure to carry a couple of BP sub reloads while out
with his Savage. (Don't ask -- don't care to mistakenly "sick the
law" onto him.)

I'm hoping Savage will be the next one to make a smokeless ML.
Perhaps they will give Rick a break from the huge back-log and
start making a .45!! ;D
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

Easy way to compute cost of living:
COL=Income + 10%.



tengoose1
Six pointer
**
member is offline





Joined: Mar 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 80
Location: Illinios
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #20 on Feb 7, 2007, 1:06pm »
[Quote]

One good thing about Illinois is that the "muzzleloader season" is after the shotgun season so I dont think we have to worry about losing smokeless rights here. Its just a shame that muzzleloader season wasnt the week before shotgun season or better yet 2 weeks before, boy would the bowhunters cry then. Oh what fun it would be to hunt the RUT with a gun.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

I dont want to kill them all just the first one and the last one.
KerryB
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline

[avatar]



Joined: Feb 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 631
Location: Southern Illinois
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #21 on Feb 7, 2007, 4:40pm »
[Quote]


Feb 7, 2007, 1:06pm, tengoose1 wrote:
One good thing about Illinois is that the "muzzleloader season" is after the shotgun season so I dont think we have to worry about losing smokeless rights here. Its just a shame that muzzleloader season wasnt the week before shotgun season or better yet 2 weeks before, boy would the bowhunters cry then. Oh what fun it would be to hunt the RUT with a gun.
Here in extreme Southern Illinois the rut is still on for the first gun season. I rattled up and shot the 9 point buck in my avitar the first day of the first season (2006) after about a 7 minute hunt. Knocked him on his ear at 56yds with a 250SST over 46grs of 5744. Perfect heart/lung shot and he never took a single step. 2005 had almost the same timeline and scenario but closer to 60yds for the killing shot. Even used the same load with the same shot placement. I should qualify all of that though by admitting that i own a piece of property with one of the highest deer populations anywhere around here. I am surrounded by grape vinyards supporting the Illinois wine producers and these deer crowd in here to eat the grapes in the fall. It is very unusual not to see at least a dozen or more deer driving back to my place and i often have to slow down so they can get out of the road. No, it's not really like hunting, it is more like selecting which animal to harvest. Oh well............somebody's gotta do it. ;D KerryB
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
contender
Spike
*
member is offline





Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 27
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #22 on Feb 7, 2007, 6:42pm »
[Quote]

Well here I sit in good ole Indiana with my Encore for sale and waiting for a Savage to get in stock. Then I read a post about a rumor that Indiana might re-word their law. Now I REALLY hope that is just a rumor.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
encoreguy
Eight Pointer
***
member is offline





Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 239
Location: Indiana
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #23 on Feb 7, 2007, 7:38pm »
[Quote]


Feb 7, 2007, 6:42pm, contender wrote:
Well here I sit in good ole Indiana with my Encore for sale and waiting for a Savage to get in stock. Then I read a post about a rumor that Indiana might re-word their law. Now I REALLY hope that is just a rumor.


I wouldn't be too concerned, I hear that rumor along with others every year. :)
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged

You learn more by pretending to know nothing than by pretending to know everything!
ozark
Mossy Horns
*****
member is offline





Joined: Feb 2006
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,524
Location: Leslie, Ar.
 Re: The next major manufactuer to go smokeless?
« Reply #24 on Feb 7, 2007, 9:16pm »
[Quote]

Here in Arkansas I believe there are special taxes on all sporting goods and that much of this tax goes to the game and fish commission. I hate to say that getting the revenues is more important to them than pleasing the users but I do suspect that is so. If someone invents a stun gun that will freeze that buck in place so that you can go and tape the horns before shooting that is going to bring a few millions into the pot I think they would debate it, hold a few public hearings and then put a pencil to the revenue gain and approve it.
Link to Post - Back to Top  IP: Logged
   [Search This Thread][Reply] [Send Topic To Friend] [Print]

"Click Here for the TIPS & HINTS Please Read"


Google
Webdougva.proboards34.com
Click Here To Make This Board Ad-Free



This Board Hosted For FREE By ProBoards
Get Your Own Free Message Board!