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     Daniel Ingram
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indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/5 18:24
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
Quote:
I have been given permission to teach by Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior in that lineage.


I just think Sayadaw would be very astonished to read the book of John and to hear that Arahants can delight in sex and the rest of the jump and joy buisness. Are you sure he gave you permission to teach ?


----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/5 18:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
interactive Buddha. Dear- METTEYYA is fast....


----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

glennmarshall
Posted on: 2007/4/6 1:06
Moderator
Joined: 2005/9/11
From: N Ireland
Posts: 491
Re: Daniel Ingram
I would also like to formally announce to the forum that I am an arahat. I read through his writings on what makes an arahat, and I pretty much tick all the boxes. I feel it's time to come out of the closet and follow Daniel's example. I am so proud to be an arahat.


----------------
Glenn.

My Website/Blog

The Jewel in the Heart of the Lotus

dukeslk18
Posted on: 2007/4/6 1:14
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/1
From: Malaysia
Posts: 343
Re: Daniel Ingram
LOL.. Glenn.. Homage to Glenn the Arahat!!!


SL


----------------


My puppy is the sexiest and most handsome boy in the entire universe.

DravenDarkshadow
Posted on: 2007/4/6 1:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/18
From: canada
Posts: 920
Re: Daniel Ingram
altho i do think you are at a starting point rather then an end of learning because you realize that all things you do in life is rather pointless. i hope you remove this label you call yourself and actually activity seek for the truth with the original source rather then sub commentaries of sub commentaries


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All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.

glennmarshall
Posted on: 2007/4/6 2:38
Moderator
Joined: 2005/9/11
From: N Ireland
Posts: 491
Re: Daniel Ingram
which arahat are you talking to..


----------------
Glenn.

My Website/Blog

The Jewel in the Heart of the Lotus

indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/6 2:49
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
Are you sure Glenn ? did you really check the holy 1-14 and did you answer all this with a YES ? ....wow....if so.....what shall I say....you made it !

1. Arahats lie.
2. Arahats have erections or have sex.
3. Arahats drink and take all kinds of drugs .
4. Arahats kill anything ever.
5. Arahats state they are arahats if you like to hear that or not - they do.without brake.
6. Arahats must not ordain within 7 days of becomming an arahat in the Buddhist order of monks .
7. Arahats think the thought "I am an arahat." and tell that in forums like www.bsw.org f.e. unconditionally-boundless.....till you experience emptiness....
8. Arahats feel the following emotions: lust, hatred, irritation, restlessness, worry, fear, pride, conceit, desire for the formless realms, desire for the formed realms, or any other "bad" emotion.

9. Arahats like music or dance.
10. Arahats hate forests.
11. Arahats have jobs or normal relationships.
12. Arahats do really exist today.
13. Arahats must never work hard to maintain their understanding, and it is this that makes them able to do so many things.
14. Arahats have fully realized the Truth of Things, but never practioners of certain strains of Tibetan Buddhism - they cant really see through to reality.




----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

DravenDarkshadow
Posted on: 2007/4/6 2:54
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/2/18
From: canada
Posts: 920
Re: Daniel Ingram
i was refering to daniel


----------------
All things appear and disappear because of the concurrence of causes and conditions. Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.

indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/6 2:57
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
dukeslk18, now you know why glenn got all stars shining !


----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

Chomphet
Posted on: 2007/4/6 4:45
Just popping in
Joined: 2006/8/29
From:
Posts: 9
Re: Daniel Ingram
We all should thank Daniel Ingram for bringing so much laugther and joy to us all....Much much merit to those who put smiles on our faces.

wtp
Posted on: 2007/4/6 10:18
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/4/25
From:
Posts: 114
Re: Daniel Ingram
This is a good example why the Buddha counselled against claiming any of the levels of enlightenment. People will then focus on the attainment, or the claim thereof rather than the teachings. Either people believe the claim and then that teacher becomes the focus rather than what they teach; or they disbelieve the claim and spend their energy tearing down the teacher.

The Buddha himself experienced this. You might recall that after his enlightenment and before he met up with his 5 previous colleagues he was traveling and met another wanderer. The Buddha proclaimed his enlightenment to this man who replied more or less with an eye roll and "Whatever you say" before hastily going on his way.

When the Buddha then met up with the 5 former colleauges he toned down his self-introduction considerably.
daniel
Posted on: 2007/4/6 17:41
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Joined: 2007/4/5
From:
Posts: 10
Re: Daniel Ingram
As I have mentioned in similar situation on another blog, if Theravada Buddhism is so unlikely to be effective in your opinions, why follow it? If the most taboo topic is success, doesn't that seem strange? If freedom is actually viewed instead as bondage and limitation, doesn't that strike you as odd? If all things are empty before, aren't they just as empty after? If you unsure of the time of your death, do you want to have spent it practicing and inquiring or acting like juveniles on a junior high school playground?

For those interested in the story about Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior, (not to be confused with Sayadaw U Pandita of Panditarama in Burma, though they are in the same lineage) he was the abbot of the Malaysian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia (a Mahasi Center) when I did my last retreat there in April, 2003, and during that time I made very good progress. I told him that I hadn't really taught much for 6 years and was thinking of teaching again. He looked me straight in the eye, and with an unusually loud voice said, "GOOD!" That's the story of getting permission to teach.

Now, it might be mentioned that the Mahasi tradition considers second path to the the minimum requirement to teach. Later, on that same retreat, he told a long story of a monk in Burma, and at the end looked at me (there were only two of us there for that dharma talk), and said, "So, the moral of that story is, don't go around saying you are an arahat or have powers." I failed to follow his advice on that point, and the outcome has been very mixed, as noticed here. Thus, consider that perhaps, just perhaps, you are maligning someone who is, in fact, not completely delusional, and just might actually have some insights, and might actually be enlightened, offenses that traditional Buddhism considers to have karmic consequences. I am not saying don't be reasonably skeptical, but perhaps some sense of basic human respect might be valuable, perhaps even on its own merits.

Anyone interested in talking about meditation? I don't tend to stick around for long on these types of sites if I am not welcome, but I do know a lot that is practical about how to do insight and concentration practices, should someone be interested.

Daniel
SomethingWitty
Posted on: 2007/4/6 17:52
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/4/6
From: St. Louis USA
Posts: 7
Re: Daniel Ingram
May I ask, out of curiousity, what *positive* consequences you have derived from communicating your conviction of your own spiritual attainments? The negative consequences here are apparent.

I ask this without hostility.
indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/6 18:09
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
Quote:
"So, the moral of that story is, don't go around saying you are an arahat or have powers."


it is always good to follow the deep advice of the wise ! follow it !


----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

forestloving
Posted on: 2007/4/6 18:49
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2006/9/4
From: near Vienna, Austria
Posts: 97
Re: Daniel Ingram
Dear Daniel,

I'd like to ask you questions about meditation and about your enlightenment experiences.

How do you get into jhanas? What does happen there, and what happens afterwards?

When and how did you become enlightened? What was (were) the experience(s) like and how did they change you/your views?

with metta,
Max
daniel
Posted on: 2007/4/6 19:02
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Joined: 2007/4/5
From:
Posts: 10
Re: Daniel Ingram
Dear SW,

Well, good question.

Perhaps check out these links:

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2007/03/05/buddhist-geeks-9-enlightened-teachers/#comment-3206

post #22 I think, or perhaps:

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/talkinboutit.html

These are not super long reads.

Or, you could check out my free ebook (on the website listed in the second link), where I go on and on about the topic in many chapters, but that is clearly a much longer read, at around 300 pages in 8.5x11 inch format.

If you have any questions or thoughts on them, let me know. I know more than most the full force of how bad an idea it can be to claim the things I do, but so far the bad has been outweighed by the good, in general terms, and it does select for a certain audience of adults that can get over that point and move on to how to practice well. And so you find me here, at nearly 5am, having just worked hard for 12 hours as an attending physician in the 9th busiest trauma referral emergency department in the US, trying to find a few people who care about applying the dharma and mastering what the Buddha said should be mastered and are not freaked out by the concept that it can actually be done and there are those of use who have done it.

I dream of the good old days, when the Buddha and the others sat around talking about these things in straightforward terms, people were open about what they had attained, what strengths they had to offer the community, and everything was very practical and down to earth.

As to following the advice of the wise, as per the other post, in general I did follow his advice with everything I had for around 20-22 hours a day during that retreat. He kept basically asking me to go ahead and finish the thing up, and so I did. Curious that it should be such a source of controversy when all I want to do is help people do exactly the same thing.

Daniel
chismith
Posted on: 2007/4/6 21:02
Quite a regular
Joined: 2005/6/4
From: Tampa Florida, USA
Posts: 62
Re: Daniel Ingram
Those who delight in sex is because they hate suffering. It takes 2 to attract.

The state of sentient beings bound by mortal thoughts are stricken with the 3 poisons (passion, aversion, confusion). How could an Arahat be in that category? Isn't this Buddhism 101? My goodness, it is like someone who can't even do arithmetics claim that they know algebra.

I am ashamed and feel deeply sorry for those self-claimed 'achievers' -- as long as they still take 'delight' in senses, they have not gotten off the ground yet --still in samsaric existence subject to suffering, still bound by that self-conceited 'I', where is the liberation?

Please go back to study some of the basic teachings of Buddhism taught by prince Sidhartha who has been there and done that!


indriya
Posted on: 2007/4/6 22:21
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/9/26
From: Germany (Berlin)
Posts: 289
Re: Daniel Ingram
daniel...by listening to your talk my mind gets really blank and sort of emty and all what remains is the sound of silence..bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............


----------------
"Sabbe satta bhavantu sukhitatta"

daniel
Posted on: 2007/4/7 4:08
Just popping in
Joined: 2007/4/5
From:
Posts: 10
Re: Daniel Ingram
Dear Chismith,

I agree, your recitation of some of the standard notions of Buddhism are doctrinally correct. That clearly is Buddhism 101, or perhaps, Buddhist Kindergarden. It is worth noting that I have studied more than you might suspect, having read a good chunk of the Pali Canon (Middle Length Discourses, Long Discourses, Udana, Dhammapada, Abhidhamma, and parts of most of the rest) the Visuddhimagga, Vimutimagga, Path to Deliverance, around 12 of the Mahasi Sayadaw commentaries, and perhaps 100 other modern works on Buddhism, such as The Heart of Buddhist Meditation, the Path of Serenity and Insight, Pau Auk's book (whose name escapes me), as well as scads of reading on other Buddhist and non-Buddhist traditions. In short, I am exceedingly familiar with many aspects of Buddhist dogma, doctrine, texts, etc. However, if you are going to read something, read about the first 48 pages of Mahasi Sayadaw's Practical Insight Meditation and do what he says, as that book is as good as it gets from a practitioner's point of view.

Back to the dogma...

Here's the problem: it isn't all correct nor does it all address things at the same level of discourse. Even a brief cruising of, say, the Long Discourses makes you realize that the quality varies widely, some clearly in radically different styles, clearly by different authors, clearly not all at the same level by any means.

Further, if you begin to look at what realization entails, the maps are not all the same. There are the limited emotional range models, such as those you speak of, in which the 10 defilements are eliminated progressively in the four paths. There are the limited possible action models, in which enlightened beings progressively seem to lose the ability to engage in very specific and somewhat arbitrary acts, though seem to be able to engage in others, such as eating. Then there are the models that are not so straightforward, such as that found in the Shorter Discourse on Voidness, and these require a more sophisticated understanding to make good sense of, particularly lines such as that relating to the arahat, where it says, "however there remains that suffering inherent in the six sense doors and conditioned by life." And finally we have models that are purely non-dualistic, such as those that say, "In the hearing just the heard, in the seeing just the seen, in the thinking, just the thought," etc.

The problem comes when one actually begins to make progress, and things get tricky once one has completed a second insight cycle and gotten to second path. One begins to notice: "cycling effortlessly through the ñanas occurs, Fruitions occur, my understanding of ultimate reality is far beyond those who have not come this far, my direct perception of the Three Characteristics is far beyond those who have not come this far, and so clearly I have attained to insights on that front, let me see what is true relating to the emotions, and investigate is something different, and if so, does if clearly fit the dogma of the standard models, or, if not, what is true?" When one gets to anagami, when one's direct perception of emptiness, luminosity, no-self, impermanence, etc. encompasses naturally and without effort the vast majority of sensate experience, then when one asks that same question, are there still the emotions, and if so, how are they different, then one begins to have to realize that the old texts where they use those models were getting at something, but they do not address it well, or perhaps something is lost in translation, as what is true is that by seeing thoughts as small, transient, part of the field of experience, causal, empty, naturally a part of life, no more and no less, just as they are, then emotions can move through in a way that is very different, much more spacious, clear, clean, quick, precise, not so prone to being contracted into them or identified with them, but that is not quite the same thing as those thoughts and emotions not arising. Thus, at this point one begins to see, "Ah, being free from the emotions is not about them never arising, but is, in fact, about seeing them as they are, so that in real time, they do not cause the trouble they did, and progressively one begins to become free from them in the midst of them, as none of them were ever self by definition, but that is not quite the same thing as becoming someone in the conventional sense who has no emotions or suddenly is not human. By the point of arahatship, when from an insight point of view the problem is gone, the knot of perception is untangled, and one knows deeply in one's being that done is what is to be done, the centerpoint/watcher/subject/agent/etc. is seen through, and all phenomena are known directly to be empty, causal, luminous, transient, not self, not other, just part of what happens, then one sees that the limited emotional range models are naive, the limited action models preposterous, and the non-duality models, such as "In the seeing just the seen, in the hearing just the heard," are right on the money.

Thus, while you can quote to me all you wish, I have read widely and know the standard dogma of enlightenment about as well as it can be known, but I also know the territory of insight, having traversed it well for a long time, and I know that the texts are not quite perfect, as much as the young children of Buddhism want them to be, and I know that the models are not all perfect, but I know what is real, from countless thousands of hours of very strong practice on and off retreat and I try to share that, and if there is any of you who does have real insight, real personal experience, please share that, but those who merely like to quote the texts as they have come down to us, well, that is mere book learning, and you know what the Buddha thought of that. It is a bit like 5 year olds and Santa Clause.

The point is that the maps lead people astray, into imitating a sanitized emotional life and dreaming of a world without emotions, when this will not be one's friend when doing insight practices. Those who spend all their insight practice time trying to change the fact that they were born a human will not gain the goal, but those who realize that by their conditioning and birth they are human and instead realize that directly perceiving The Three Characteristics of those phenomena regardless of what they are is the only hope for salvation here and how have a chance, and thus, I do my best to promote this point, as it makes a positive difference in people's actual insight practice. Do not confuse training in morality with training in insight. One is concerned with attempting to modify the content of one's experience and behavior, and this is valid within its scope. The other is about seeing things as they are regardless.

As to another question posted about the jhanas: I actually like the old maps of them just fine. They describe them basically just as they happen. What happens there depends on your object, but the basics of standard model are correct without real surprises, except the point that one can be in jhana to varied degrees, meaning that soft jhana involves the factors in a way that is clearly different from ordinary experience but is not perfectly clean, and then there is hard jhana, in which the object is largely perfectly fused to attention, and the factors are significantly stronger and more clear, though whether or not bodily factors, such as bliss, are predominant will depend on the object (less predominant if visual objects such as kasinas are used, more if bodily ones, such as the breath), and then there is the issue of the powers, which is another topic, and there the limits seem to be one's strength of concentration, one's imagination and other factors that are rather mysterious.

As to one who asked about the sequence of my practice: Arising and Passing first time around 1984 without any training at all, stream entry 1/13/1996 while on retreat at the Thai Monastery with Christopher Titmuss, et al. in Bodh Gaya, India, (though I owe much of that to the training I received on a previous retreat at MBMC, where I got to the upeka ñana but couldn't land the path) second path on 7/21/1996, third path 11/20/1996, arahatship around 4/17/2003 on retreat at MBMC.

In short, go to the Malasian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia and practice there for as long and well as you possibly can, that's my advice! The place is amazing: the price is right, the people are so nice, the food is safe and nourishing, the water is safe, there is little if any malaria, the technique as powerful as anything that exists today, the weather is great, and the teachers I have sat with have been extremely inspiring and helpful, basically all the good stuff of Myanmar and more but without the hassles.

I talk obliquely about those experiences and what changed in my free ebook in the section on the Progress of Insight, The Three Doors, and Models of the Stages of Enlightenment, for those who are interested, see www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.html, but the point is how to take those points and apply them to your own practice, not dwell too long on the practice of someone else, and there I recommends long retreats with a good technique, such as noting, applied all day long every single second from the moment you wake up in the morning to the moment you go to sleep, with a maximal focus on directly perceiving the Three Characteristics of all arising sensations and an absolute minimum of focus on anything else, including dogma and theory, except to notice that those thoughts are transient, not self, etc.

Daniel
twoshoes
Posted on: 2007/4/7 13:20
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/9/3
From: Melbourne
Posts: 606
Re: Daniel Ingram



"For those interested in the story about Sayadaw U Pandita, Junior, (not to be confused with Sayadaw U Pandita of Panditarama in Burma, though they are in the same lineage) he was the abbot of the Malaysian Buddhist Meditation Centre in Penang, Malaysia (a Mahasi Center) when I did my last retreat there in April, 2003, and during that time I made very good progress. I told him that I hadn't really taught much for 6 years and was thinking of teaching again. He looked me straight in the eye, and with an unusually loud voice said, "GOOD!" That's the story of getting permission to teach."


Sawadaw U Pandita teaches at my local meditation centre. Buddhist Society of Victoria. He give dhamma talks evert Thursday I go along to most of them. He tells interesting stories.
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