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Username Post: Trends and DVD's: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?        (Topic#19708)
FigNewton 
Rockin' Poster
FigNewton
Reg: 05-07-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 09:41 AM - Post#437309    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
Believe it or not there was a time before the internet and before people were able to get fansubs...but somehow these shows became huge. So the idea that we have to watch a show before anyone will purchase is incorrect.





John, I appreciate where you are coming from, and didn't start in this whole thing much later than you did. But realize that the argument isn't that a show *can't* become popular, it's that the likelyhood of any one show taking off is much lower without pre-release viewing.

Did I blind buy back in the day when I relied on VHS fansub mail-ins for pre-release viewing? Yes. And I certainly got burned on a few. Which made me a little on the conservative side with my spending. I was very careful.

In the age of digisubs? I know what I like. I know which shows I want. I buy more now than I did back in the day because there's a lot less risk involved. Do I still blind-buy? Certainly. I still get burned sometimes too. But overall, I'm buying a lot more anime now than I did back then. Because I know what I like, and I can buy with confidence.
Aaron Newton - Newtronika - gaming blog
Live GamerID - FigNewton555



 
K_Shinjo 
Flying Mascot Brigade
K_Shinjo
Loc: Long Island, NY
Reg: 03-31-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 12:32 PM - Post#437393    
    In response to Battra92

  • Battra92 Said:


Getting a VHS fansub you would go online and find a fansub distro. Then you sent a money order for like $5-$7 a tape (including the shipping) or you mailed them a box of blank tapes and money to ship it back. It took money and it took time. Believe me paying $7 for a jumpy tape made me more likely to buy the licensed tape (or DVD later on.)

The major difference I think is there were some prominent groups that at least tried to put over the notion they were to get the show licensed. Some Fansubbers would do the first couple episodes and then tell you to go nag the anime companies to get the rest. These kids who subtitle the stuff like Death Note which had a 100% chance of release are wasting their time, IMO.



I wish more digisubbers would take to the idea of subbing only a few episodes to only generate interest in a title. This current attitude of "we must finish/watch the whole series before it's licensed" I think is hurting fandom.

In the old days of VHS fansubs, it quite difficult to acquire them. One oftentimes had know the right people. We also had be VERY patient. Sometimes a person wouldn't get the tapes for months on end (and sometimes not at all). Nth generation copies were common and the latest titles were not easy to get. And quite oftenly it was hard to collect all the episodes of a particular series. This is very much unlike today where tens of titles and/or complete series are available overnight with a few clicks of the mouse.

This lack of easy access or availability (IMHO) to anime in the old days created a "hunger" for anime. I remember a time when I was overjoyed to get any anime in my hands. Every title I watched was savored even though it turned out to be crap. And when the first commercial releases started coming out here, I think many of us were hungry enough to not even blink at paying $20 to $35 for one or 2 episodes on VHS tape. These days I think this "hunger" is weak. Digisubs and an oversaturated market I think is making fans picky and whiny. While I'm not saying we should go back to the old days, perhaps some changes are in need.
METAL Mark-VI SAMA-FUN #08 (Sports Anime & Manga Fans Union).


Edited by K_Shinjo on 05-05-07 12:34 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 12:36 PM - Post#437395    
    In response to something

I do not understand clearly what you mean by not addressing your point. The only thing I can see from you post is that "You would like to see the show before purchasing it." If you have not seen the show than it is too risky for you to use your hard earned dollars.

ok...

It would seem naturally to make sense. But as other people pointed out in this thread already, as opposed to Japan the only way you can do this is with downloads as in the USA we do not have that privilege. So you download...

But lets be honest, how many people download and never buy. if I have to count the number of people who come by my table and say I already downloaded that one, I would not need to release anymore titles. The idea that somehow everyone is honest and only downloads to preview and later buy is a fallacy. The other problem with downloads is that you convince the border line people to go download and not buy because it so easily available. The people who only download will always download and never buy but it is that bigger audience who than believe "downloads are ok, everyone does it"...that is the problem and what we are trying to prevent. This is what happen to the music industry..."it is ok to download everyone does it"

In the end, if downloads become the way and less and less monies are spent buy the consumer, the quality of the shows will eventual suffer more. It is simple economics...it is already happening in hollywood as actors can no longer get paid the same.

I also do not understand how if the publisher puts a preview episode on the web than that is not enough to make a decision??

Next time at a convention ask a creator what he thinks of the fact that you download his work and have not bought it or what he thinks about downloads in general.

-jfs

 
Relwarc 
101st Posting Infantry Member
Relwarc
Loc: Chicago
Reg: 04-20-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 12:44 PM - Post#437401    
    In response to K_Shinjo

  • K_Shinjo Said:
I wish more digisubbers would take to the idea of subbing only a few episodes to only generate interest in a title. This current attitude of "we must finish/watch the whole series before it's licensed" I think is hurting fandom.



That would be the ideal situation, especially for series that almost guaranteed to be licensed like Death Note. However, I believe fansubbers' reasoning runs something like ths: we're doing the fandom a great favor by providing for free series that may never be licensed and if a series DOES get licensed, it's in part because of our increasing awareness of it through fansubs. So, you see, they're not likely to close shop after five or so episodes and move on. Then, of course, there's the fact that fans have a great demand for fansubs since that helps many make informed decisions (and others just a free pass to watch the whole thing), so ultimately, fansubbers don't really have any incentive to stop.

Although, why Death Note continues to be fansubbed by anyone is beyond me especially considering Viz is offering the first episode on May 10th. But I guess there will always be DVD rippers and fansubbers alike who disregard a licensing announcement. I really think that fansubs are somewhat inevitable, but I wish they would limit themselves to a certain number of episodes and call it a compromise.
Buying: Saiunkoku (B+), Chevalier (A), Beck (B+), Kyo Kara Maoh! (B), Air (B+), The Third (B+), Black Lagoon (B+), Haruhi (B+), Ergo Proxy (A-), Noein (A)
Renting: Shonen Onmyoji (B), Higurashi (B), Utawarerumono (B), Solty Rei (B+), Ayakashi (C+), Peach Girl (B-), Kurau (B), Tide-Line Blue (B), Tsubasa (B-), Rozen Maiden (B-)
Loving: GW, Esca, Bebop, Eva, Champloo, Kare Kano, Trigun, RahXephon, FMP!/?/TSR, Planetes, X, Berserk, Big O, Hellsing/OVA, Kino, GitS: SAC, Sam7, Kodocha, Stellvia, Noir, Lain, Gilgamesh, 12K
Collecting: 745+


 
something 
Grand High Arbiter of the HARUHIGASM
something
Loc: -
Reg: 04-21-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:00 PM - Post#437410    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
I do not understand clearly what you mean by not addressing your point. The only thing I can see from you post is that "You would like to see the show before purchasing it." If you have not seen the show than it is too risky for you to use your hard earned dollars.


...No, my point was that from every angle imaginable, your idea seems to contradict common sense. You just keep focusing on this "watch before buy" thing exclusively, without addressing how it makes no sense for Japan. Without addressing that it won't stop fansubs or dvd rips AT ALL. Without addressing who ACTUALLY benefits. Without addressing how you "know" it works. Without addressing how "it works!" is even measured, relative to what, provable how, relevant to modern TV anime licensing in what way? Without addressing pretty much anything in my posts except the one issue that I made clear is a personal issue for me and not the most important part in the grad scheme of things. What about *everything else* in the market at large?

This is just getting frustrating, because you keep responding the same way, deflecting the discussion towards points of ethics or morality, which have no significance whatsoever in and of themselves. They're only relevant here as they impact buying. Because isn't this supposed to be about the economics? Aren't you the head of a profit-making business? Isn't your scheme aimed at making more money this year than you did last year? I thought it was, which is why I wanted to discuss things related to the business, to the actual marketing and licensing and selling of anime, to the things that, when we get to the bottom of it all, are the only things that matter (and rightfully so) to creators and licensors on both sides of the Pacific.

All the goodwill and "ethical behavior" in the world won't do you a lick of good if your products aren't selling. So what I'm getting at is, how would this idea of holding back broadcast be desirable or even feasible from a Japanese perspective, and how would it impact foreign licensing of Japanese products (aka, your business). Once again, the bottom line: How would it sell more discs? An answer that takes into account the questions I've raised (makes no tangible difference to people who don't "pre-view"; has no inherent characteristics that would discourage dvd rips or fansubs; relies inordinately on the optimistic view that people who otherwise would fail to support the release will now do so if they have to buy it blind, and that they'll offset the sales lost from others who would be in the opposite situation; etc.) thus far in other posts, and reiterated a few times in this post, would be appreciated, if you have the time and desire to indulge me. In short... is this a "revolution" for the sake of revolution, or does it actually confer benefit to the anime industry and fandom worldwide? Thanks again.
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha Strikers
     This anime is Curtain Fire Shooting anime.
     Girls do their best now and are preparing. Please watch warmly until... IT IS READY NOW!
     Unknown force threatens all dimensions. Starlight breaks over Midchilda.


 
HitokiriShadow 
Rockin' Poster
HitokiriShadow
Reg: 08-02-06
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:11 PM - Post#437420    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
The idea that somehow everyone is honest and only downloads to preview and later buy is a fallacy.



Good thing no one said that.

  • Quote:
The other problem with downloads is that you convince the border line people to go download and not buy because it so easily available. The people who only download will always download and never buy but it is that bigger audience who than believe "downloads are ok, everyone does it"...that is the problem and what we are trying to prevent. This is what happen to the music industry..."it is ok to download everyone does it"



And what some of are us are saying is: How is this going to change that? As soon as its released, a DVD rip will be available. And absolutely nothing changes. People who are too cheap to pay for anything will still watch it for free. The "border line" people will still have it available and since everyone else is still downloading it, they will too.


  • Quote:
I also do not understand how if the publisher puts a preview episode on the web than that is not enough to make a decision??



Because one episode doesn't tell you how good a show will be. Sometimes they can even be incredibly misleading. Shows can start out good and end up crap or can start poorly and become really good. In either case, that one episode doesn't give you a good idea of the show as a whole.
"Ohh, son... You no get it... Legal system is like Lotto, only wid better odds and no ping pong balls! Scratch and ween, son! Scratch and ween!"

Avatar: Otoha (Sky Girls) Staring at Utter Hopelessness and Despair


Edited by HitokiriShadow on 05-05-07 01:15 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
Lego 
Hanging out with Chicken Little
Lego
Age: 21
Loc: Florida
Reg: 02-08-05
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:19 PM - Post#437424    
    In response to HitokiriShadow

I research the new shows for the season anymore before I check them out via blog, 2chan, or raw. I have a pretty good idea of what I'll keep an eye on so when it gets licensed(if at all), I can pounce on it.

Right now you have the mindset of "Ok I'll watch the show for free via fansub. If I like it, I might buy it, if I don't, I won't". I don't see that changing with anime raws popping onto the web mere hours after they've aired in Japan. Anytime you have something airing before someone releases it you'll get that. Many have the mindset and excuse that it airs on Japanese TV, so why pay for it?

It opens up the fansub debate which I really don't want to get into as my topic has been skewed from complaining and putting constructive criticism against R1 companies to a "hey see if my idea works!" and a debate against fansubs and etc.
Thank You for licensing Emma Rightsuf!!
Geneon and Type Moon Fanboy
Avatar: Lady from Devil May Cry, anime and game


 
treatment 
So close yet so far...
treatment
Loc: [Scrubs]
Reg: 08-15-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:21 PM - Post#437425    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:

In the end, if downloads become the way and less and less monies are spent buy the consumer, the quality of the shows will eventual suffer more. It is simple economics...it is already happening in hollywood as actors can no longer get paid the same.



That's quite a misleading statement.

The quality of anime have been suffering regardless of downloads. Whether it be story or visuals or voice-talent or whatever.




^ fanservice ^
~Touch~
official MACROSS website


 
something 
Grand High Arbiter of the HARUHIGASM
something
Loc: -
Reg: 04-21-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:25 PM - Post#437432    
    In response to treatment

  • treatment Said:
The quality of anime have been suffering regardless of downloads. Whether it be story or visuals or voice-talent or whatever.


And then you have other people (like me) who think that anime keeps getting better and better, in all aspects, which reveals this particular point of discussion as ridiculously subjective and hence irrelevant to my original point.
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha Strikers
     This anime is Curtain Fire Shooting anime.
     Girls do their best now and are preparing. Please watch warmly until... IT IS READY NOW!
     Unknown force threatens all dimensions. Starlight breaks over Midchilda.


 
LordGeo 
101st Posting Infantry Member
LordGeo
Age: 21
Loc: North Brunswick, NJ
Reg: 01-06-07
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:40 PM - Post#437448    
    In response to Relwarc

  • Relwarc Said:
That would be the ideal situation, especially for series that almost guaranteed to be licensed like Death Note. However, I believe fansubbers' reasoning runs something like ths: we're doing the fandom a great favor by providing for free series that may never be licensed and if a series DOES get licensed, it's in part because of our increasing awareness of it through fansubs. So, you see, they're not likely to close shop after five or so episodes and move on. Then, of course, there's the fact that fans have a great demand for fansubs since that helps many make informed decisions (and others just a free pass to watch the whole thing), so ultimately, fansubbers don't really have any incentive to stop.



I agree on that. I REALLY doubt GaoGaiGar would have been liscenced if it had not gotten the fanbase it got through fansubs.

Now, I do give credit to companies that DO pick up shows that are smaller name AND were not fansubbed, like Bandai Ent.'s release of Clockwork Fighters: Hiwou's War and ADV's release of Nerima Daikon Brothers.

Even if companies will not admit it, I bet they do occaisionally look at fansubs when judging what to pick up. Look at Haruhi; it probably would still get liscenced, but the HUGE promotion it's getting over here is due to the overwhelming fanbase the fansubs gave it. I personally never saw Haruhi, and I don't want people to continually tell me to see it since that will just make want to see it less, but I will admit its popularity.

But even fansubs can't do much for some shows. There are PLENTY of animes that are/were never finished due to a variety of reasons, but usually due to lack of popularity. That's why I'm still hoping the Ring ni Kakero 1 anime, both seasons, will get liscenced, even though either season was never fully fansubbed.
Some animes I would love to see brought over:
Ring ni Kakero 1 (Both Seasons), Fuma no Kojiro,
Platinumhugen Ordian, Tohai Densetsu Akagi


 
Patchouli Knowledge 
Tatyana Lasaiev Fanboy
Patchouli Knowledge
Age: 28
Loc: Virginia
Reg: 04-21-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 01:57 PM - Post#437464    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
I also do not understand how if the publisher puts a preview episode on the web than that is not enough to make a decision??



Actually speaking of the idea of preview episodes. There are times I wonder if maybe the first episode is actually the WORST episode to use for this preview strategy you mention. Since often the first episode is in the set up phase and does not always show the true flow of a series. Granted that begs the question of which episode(s) to let the people preview? Obviously the answer is not going to be all of them because that would defeat the purpose. I guess there is always the idea of making a special web-only episode.
"We smile with happiness even in the depths of space. We don't know who called us. But there are some things you're better off not knowing."
Tales of AOD - Member #2/Team Hamster: Strawberry Pink!
Avatar: Patchouli Knowledge of Touhou


 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 02:33 PM - Post#437497    
    In response to something

"without addressing how it makes no sense for Japan."

In Japan right now they no longer produce enough monies from the shows they produce and is the reason why they are now coming to the USA to distribute directly. It has been told me in many meetings I have in Japan with the producers. They complain of YouTube and Downloading hurting being the reason why the sales are down. Therefore my strategy or any strategy to slow down the downloading will help them.

"Without addressing that it won't stop fansubs or dvd rips AT ALL."

Ofcourse their will always be fansubs and always be downloads but my idea from several pages ago was a complete strategy which included low pricing to stop the need for people to download while still keeping the TV as a window. The people who continue to copy and the fansubbers who still fansub are really just pirates and are not fans trying to provide a need not provided. The quality of a fansub has no relevance that you are buying it illegally. Also it helps stops the borderline person with the "everyone does it, so it must be ok" which was the deathcard for the music industry.

"Without addressing how you "know" it works. Without addressing how "it works!" is even measured, relative to what, provable how, relevant to modern TV anime licensing in what way?"

I know it works because I saw it for Kenshin being a show fansubbed, released on dvd first in the USA and later on TV in the USA. DVD sales were great and than with the TV exposure it opened a new opportunity for sales.

BTW, how do you know how the Japanese anime industry works?? You keep saying my strategy can not work because I know it can not since I know the Japanese industry. I been in the industry for 20 years and feel I know what works for the Japanese and US anime industry.

Again and Again and Again, WHY ARE FANSUBS THE ONLY WAY A PERSON CAN PREVIEW A SHOW?? Why can not a free download from th publisher, advertising and the way hollywood does all their promotions for theit current DTV market work for Anime. Anime in essence is a DTV market. How about going by the writers, creators, a sequel???

My argument is that my strategy will produce more if not the same amount of sales currently generated. I also feel I am in a better place to know what would work.

My friend it seems you enjoy your fansubs and feel they are necessary...please continue...do not worry, animesuki will be around for a long time no matter what I say.

-jfs


Edited by John Sirabella on 05-05-07 02:39 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 02:34 PM - Post#437498    
    In response to something

OK...my point is also that if trends continue the number of shows will dwindle..that has nothing to do with tastes but simple economics..

 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 02:38 PM - Post#437500    
    In response to Lego

You are correct but the main thing that upsets R1 companies about the current market is downloads!! All the companies are thinking about is how to stay around for the next years with this current situation.

 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 02:41 PM - Post#437502    
    In response to something

If I still have not addressed your many concerns, please write not a long post...but just a series of questions, generated 1 - X.

I can address each individually for you as to not make you think I am avoiding your argument.

-jfs

 
John Sirabella 
Industry Representative
John Sirabella
Loc: New York
Reg: 09-17-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 02:53 PM - Post#437507    
    In response to HitokiriShadow

To HitShadow:

If you release the DVD first and a person still downloads it is than an illegal download and really makes the person feel they are doing something illegal. In the world of fansubs and digidownloads no one feels it is illegal and makes it feel it is ok since everyone is doing it. It is the psychology that will slow down the borderline people.

-jfs



 
something 
Grand High Arbiter of the HARUHIGASM
something
Loc: -
Reg: 04-21-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 03:18 PM - Post#437536    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
They complain of YouTube and Downloading hurting being the reason why the sales are down. Therefore my strategy or any strategy to slow down the downloading will help them.


See, I think the problem for you and I coming to any agreement on this is that you work off the assumption that it will "slow down the downloading". This is the foundation of your argument, the solid ground that must hold at all costs, or everything else is a no-go. I, on the other hand, work off the opposite assumption, which is that fansubs (or DVD rips instead) will be as available as they ever were, and there will be no significant pressure placed on downloaders to change their habits (nor do I feel that this category of "easily swayed, on-the-fence" fan is really as numerous as you believe). Honestly, even now, about as many episodes per day come out via DVD rips as via fansubs. And then of course there are bootlegs, which you'd have a hard time competing with in price, though why anyone would be stupid enough to, once they finally decide to spend money, buy bootlegs instead is just beyond me. Unfortunately, they do. ::shrugs::

  • Quote:
Ofcourse their will always be fansubs and always be downloads but my idea from several pages ago was a complete strategy which included low pricing to stop the need for people to download while still keeping the TV as a window.


It's not that the concept is ENTIRELY without merit (cheaper anime is always good), but just how cheap can you go? And how cheap does it need to be to entice these people (a group that by both our definitions is at least hesitant about buying anything) to undergo a radical transformation from "pass on DVDs even if I like it" to "hey I'll just totally buy it straight up instead!" Again, this is the heart of the matter, and again Kenshin is your example (which while decently priced, wasn't exactly bargain basement with the singles), which I'll address once more below.

  • Quote:
The quality of a fansub has no relevance that you are buying it illegally.


I'm not sure where anyone brought up fansub quality or what it has to do with the issue?

  • Quote:
I know it works because I saw it for Kenshin being a show fansubbed, released on dvd first in the USA and later on TV in the USA. DVD sales were great and than with the TV exposure it opened a new opportunity for sales.


I was truly hoping you'd have a new example. Like I've said a couple times, Kenshin isn't at all what you seem to be gunning for. 1) Your model requires fansubs not to be a big issue beforehand, then you admit Kenshin was fansubbed; which in any case is not totally applicable because 2) Your model is supposed to be for the digisub age, not the VHS sub age, a distinction you pointed out earlier but seem to be throwing out now?; 3) Your model is concerned with Japanese TV releases not coming before R1 DVD releases, but Kenshin was on Japanese TV long, long long before it was on R1 DVD; 4) Kenshin is a wildly popular Shounen Jump property with far broader mainstream appeal than most shows, making it rather atypical and very hard to generalize onto a broader market that includes many niche shows that can't rely on that sort of pedigree.

I guess I just can't see where Kenshin is something you'd want to tout as an example of a model that is meant to be applied to the very different (almost black and white opposite, really) circumstances of today.

  • Quote:
BTW, how do you know how the Japanese anime industry works?? You keep saying my strategy can not work because I know it can not since I know the Japanese industry. I been in the industry for 20 years and feel I know what works for the Japanese and US anime industry.


If your 20 years in the industry tells you that the only way to save anime is to utterly revolutionize the way it's delivered, then I won't try and stop you, but by your own admission later in the post, it might not increase sales at all. I just don't want the anime industry to throw out the baby with the bathwater in an attempt to get a bit of hair out of the drain.

  • Quote:
Again and Again and Again, WHY ARE FANSUBS THE ONLY WAY A PERSON CAN PREVIEW A SHOW??


Again and Again and Again, I didn't say it was the only way, not for the market, not even the only way for me. But you just either don't listen to me, or don't believe me, or heck, who knows what else. As I said, an ep or two (the latter being rare as it is) is not useful for me, or a lot of others, and so no, it isn't something I value. It DOES work for some people though, and good for them, and I'd never ever advocate companies ending the practice. As for going by the creative staff/sequel, er, I do. I saw some of Galaxy Angel on a friend's DVDs, and since have bought the first three seasons and preordered AA. I go by all sorts of things, including recommendations from friends and so on, but these are the minority of my purchases. And you're still confusing *what I personally do* with *what I think the market at large does*, and I keep trying to tell you I know they're not always the same thing. For the last time: I'm not advocating the removal of any of these other methods. I'm just saying they range from "not useful" to "occasionally useful" for me, and they will never be my primary method, as they just don't work as well. But this isn't supposed to be about me, it's supposed to be far larger and more significant than that.

  • Quote:
My argument is that my strategy will produce more if not the same amount of sales currently generated. I also feel I am in a better place to know what would work.


As the insider, you can certainly pull the "I have the data" card, justifiably so even, but I'm certainly free to criticize it and wonder if your interpretation of the data is sound, so long as I do so in a reasonable way. Now, I think I've done just that so far, though you can (and definitely seem to) disagree. But when your main data point so far, Kenshin, seems actually quite unconnected to your entire model, I really feel justified in seriously starting to wonder about the whole concept.

  • Quote:
My friend it seems you enjoy your fansubs and feel they are necessary...please continue...do not worry, animesuki will be around for a long time no matter what I say.


Bit torrent doesn't work for me (destroys my connection's stability something fierce!), so I have to work a little harder =P But yes, I'll continue to do what I've been doing, and since it's gotten me over 600 R1s, I think it's rather in the industry's best interests (yours included) that I continue to do so. Now, does it work out that well for everyone? Clearly not. Do I wish it did? Oh lord you betcha! Am I going to let those less responsible troublemakers and false fans bring me down? I must say that I will not. After all, I want to see the R1 industry succeed just as much as you do, in case that bit of information has somehow been lost in all this.


As a postscript, I think the way to "save" the industry, if that is necessary, isn't dismantling the existing order for the sake of luring fansub-watching non-buyers into the R1 fold. You'd probably have much better luck thinking of ways to reach new fans, such as through digital distribution as an alternate avenue in addition to normal DVD releases. I've made no secret of my great dislike of... pretty much every digital distro setup in existence, and the fundamental assumptions that underlie the concept, but I have also stated that if it brings in new fans and new sources of revenue, then good for it, so long as I keep getting my DVDs.

The downloading community (which I CAN claim to have much exposure to and experience with) is really quite polarized between those that support legit releases (like me) and those that are actually opposed on principle to such releases. If you feel that reaching out to whatever leftovers are in the middle is the best way to go, then so be it. But I think your energies (and R&D dollars) are much better spent trying to expand the fanbase from what you can work, as opposed to fighting the stragglers tooth and nail.
Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha Strikers
     This anime is Curtain Fire Shooting anime.
     Girls do their best now and are preparing. Please watch warmly until... IT IS READY NOW!
     Unknown force threatens all dimensions. Starlight breaks over Midchilda.


Edited by something on 05-05-07 03:25 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
LordGeo 
101st Posting Infantry Member
LordGeo
Age: 21
Loc: North Brunswick, NJ
Reg: 01-06-07
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 03:24 PM - Post#437543    
    In response to something

  • something Said:
  • John Sirabella Said:
My friend it seems you enjoy your fansubs and feel they are necessary...please continue...do not worry, animesuki will be around for a long time no matter what I say.


Bit torrent doesn't work for me (destroys my connection's stability something fierce!), so I have to work a little harder =P But yes, I'll continue to do what I've been doing, and since it's gotten me over 600 R1s, I think it's rather in the industry's best interests (yours included) that I continue to do so. Now, does it work out that well for everyone? Clearly not. Do I wish it did? Oh lord you betcha! Am I going to let those less responsible troublemakers and false fans bring me down? I must say that I will not. After all, I want to see the R1 industry succeed just as much as you do, in case that bit of information has somehow been lost in all this.



I agree fullheartedly with something. People will still watch fansubs, but a number of those people wil STILL go out and buy the DVDs. Now, I don't have as many R1s as something does, mostly because of money issues, but I support the business as much as I can. And that's all I can do for now.

You need to have both the bad and the good to get somewhere.
Some animes I would love to see brought over:
Ring ni Kakero 1 (Both Seasons), Fuma no Kojiro,
Platinumhugen Ordian, Tohai Densetsu Akagi


 
outlawed 
Active Participant
outlawed
Reg: 09-04-04
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 03:26 PM - Post#437544    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
Of course their will always be fansubs and always be downloads but my idea from several pages ago was a complete strategy which included low pricing to stop the need for people to download while still keeping the TV as a window.



The biggest hurdle here is actually Japan. As you are well aware the anime DVD market in Japan (otaku not mainstream obviously) is geared towards the hardcore fans who will fork out the big yen for their limited editions with different premium goods based on which retailer they prefer. This is the only reason some companies are still barely hanging on. I wonder if there was to be a major price correction what the retailers woudl think. Personally I think several companies going out of business is more likely than the premium goods based model for otaku anime sales changing. What odds are you giving Bandai Visual USA btw?

  • John Sirabella Said:

Why can not a free download from th publisher, advertising and the way hollywood does all their promotions for theit current DTV market work for Anime. Anime in essence is a DTV market. How about going by the writers, creators, a sequel???




This is exactly what is currently lacking here and one of the big problems facing buying titles sight unseen in North America. Fan education is pretty weak despite the increase in resources and knowledge that is available. Knowing the actual talent and how anime production works would really allow fans to know what future shows might interest them. Although many fans are better informed these days few both online and off understand the difference between producers and staff. They don't really know what is doing what in terms of production let alone be familiar with certain staff. This is perhaps one of the greatest failures of USA anime conventions. Most I have been to do not make use of their JP guests and don't get them to teach the USA fans what is really going on. Of course this is not helped when some fans come in and ask inane questions instead of something of substance.


  • John Sirabella Said:
You are correct but the main thing that upsets R1 companies about the current market is downloads!! All the companies are thinking about is how to stay around for the next years with this current situation.



The wild west intersection of anime & internet is strong! I think all can agree that many of us saw that downloads would become a huge thorn eventually. No one was willing to take the risk of punishing the new digital fans with any hardcore steps early on when the market was rapidly expanding. Hindsight is 20/20 but is there a consensus of regret that things should have been dealt with in a less hands-off manner?


  • John Sirabella Said:
In the world of fansubs and digidownloads no one feels it is illegal and makes it feel it is ok since everyone is doing it. It is the psychology that will slow down the borderline people.



When in Rome? Some have argued that a downloader can disassociate copyright infringment from an illegal act because they are hurting a company like Time Warner. While the offenders might be law abiding citizens who would be deeply troubled if a stranger got robbed they feel no emotional attachment to a big company and in issues of ethics or morality emotion is critical. The fact that the anime companies have weathered such open piracy well is a testament to how the anime customers see them.

  • John Sirabella Said:
OK...my point is also that if trends continue the number of shows will dwindle..that has nothing to do with tastes but simple economics..



It's interesting to watch how there are different initiatives in place to try and combat this. Like you I ultimately agree most will fail unless they think far forward to the next business model.


  • John Sirabella Said:

My friend it seems you enjoy your fansubs and feel they are necessary...please continue...do not worry, animesuki will be around for a long time no matter what I say.




LMFAO.

This is why I love when John gets to posting on here. One of the few reasons I occasionally check these boards. John, hats off on making a pretty generic thread into a great and meaningful one.

 
treatment 
So close yet so far...
treatment
Loc: [Scrubs]
Reg: 08-15-03
Re: Trends and DVD&amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;amp;#039;s: Why do R1 companies suddenly hate us?
05-05-07 04:03 PM - Post#437578    
    In response to John Sirabella

  • John Sirabella Said:
OK...my point is also that if trends continue the number of shows will dwindle..that has nothing to do with tastes but simple economics..



I would think that the dwindling will be more of a positive for both the R2 and the R1 companies.

I remember reading some JC Staff interview wherein one of their guys say he expects and can't wait for the bubble to burst to have more good titles again, instead of a whole bunch of mediocre shows saturating the market in Japan.

For the R1, it would be better since then you guys won't/don't need to spend craploads of money to try to sell crappy titles. You just have to bid on the good titles that will actually sell better.

For some perspective, I would reckon the Gits-SAC series sold better than your own Green Green series in the R1-market. Both were also downloaded/fansubbed before the dvd's hit the market.




^ fanservice ^
~Touch~
official MACROSS website


Edited by treatment on 05-05-07 04:12 PM. Reason for edit: No reason given.

 
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